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SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:52:00 - [1] Edited by: SetrakDark on 02/03/2010 18:03:58 Overview The MD Audit Fund is a volunteer organization that oversees a charity capital trust and makes payments from that trust for audits on approved offers. The Fund has two overarching purposes, to encourage the development of the auditing profession and to help prospective managers achieve their goals. By offering competitive payments for audits, the Fund creates an incentive for new auditors to join the profession and for existing auditors to develop their professional skills. By covering or subsidizing the cost of an audit, the Fund encourages new managers to make introductory offers and helps smooth their entrance into the MD community. Further background introduction to the Fund can be found in its originating discussion here, its development can be reviewed here, its official charter can be found below, and further information on audits can be found here. This thread will be used as the official updated information resource, activity tracker, and Fund discussion/Q&A forum. Managers The managers of eligible offers will be contacted by a Director to confirm their interest in receiving a free or subsidized audit, or managers may contact the Fund in advance of an offer. The Directors will then confirm or deny the offer's eligibility after reviewing the offer and a brief Q&A period. The Fund will then arrange for an audit to be performed on approved offers. Managers are encouraged to inform themselves of the nature of audits and this Fund before making any decisions. Auditors Audit prices will be quoted for each approved offer. Auditors interested in performing the audit of a specific offer should contact the Fund to express their interest A.S.A.P. After a brief waiting period, the best auditor for the job will be selected by the Fund. Auditors with no experience are encouraged to perform voluntary fact-check audits (under the 001 Audits Program ) on very small offers to hone their skills and create a public record of their work. Directors Directors are active and engaged members of the community who are prepared, interested, and able to perform this light duty as a community service. Interested applicants need not be long-standing community members or experienced money-managers, but a demonstrated history of interest in and contribution to the MD community, a basic understanding of both offers and audits, and the ability to communicate calmly and effectively are all requisite. Please see the charter below for the official details. Donors Donors are those generous community members who have agreed to temporarily lock some of their savings in the capital trust so that we can all benefit from having stronger auditing resources and more quality managers in the MD community. All donations are locked into the capital trust for three months minimum, with a one month withdrawal notice, during which time the interest they generate will be the operating budget of the Fund.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:53:00 - [2] Edited by: SetrakDark on 02/03/2010 18:05:01 Charter Mandate To administer a fund of donations from the MD community that creates the safest possible income stream which can meet the regular expense needs of the fund To vet appropriate offers for receiving the free audit service To select an auditor for approved offers and provide payment for completed audits To internally assure the fund's continuance by maintaining an active and engaged BoD (see Corporate Governance section) Fund Administration The capital fund will initially be 12.5b invested at 4%, with 500m interest revenue per month The investment targets are security, duration, and completeness in that order A trusted 3rd party will act as permanent executor of the capital, handling it under instruction of the BoD, subject to this charter The executor will disburse 500m to the chairman every month for auditor payments Unused interest will be returned to the executor to act as a buffer fund for reinvestment delays or busy months The buffer fund can only be accessed for busy months by a majority vote of the BoD Any excess of the buffer fund beyond 1b will be disbursed to the donors All donations are locked in for 3 months from time of receipt, with a 1 month withdrawal warning period The fund capital can be expanded or shrunk by a unanimous vote, providing a reasonable case for such an action can be made A record of all transactions and transfers will be kept and made publicly accessible Process A Director will confirm the offeror's interest in receiving a free or subsidized audit Each Director will evaluate the offer by his own standards, seeking further information if necessary, and internally (through the mailing list) either approve or disapprove the offer. A minimum of three approvals is required An audit price will be quoted for the offer. In the event of multiple interested auditors, the Directors will vote for the auditor who they feel will provide the best audit for the particular offer
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:53:00 - [3] Edited by: SetrakDark on 02/03/2010 18:05:54 Duties Every Director: To cast an informed vote every time he is required to do so Vice-Chairman: To act as temporary Chairman in the event that the existing Chairman is dismissed or MIA To keep an organized record of all votes, transactions, and any other documents pertaining to the fund's operation To track Directors' terms and arrange for renewals or nominations Chairman: To ensure the safety and satisfactory performance of the fund's investment(s) To propose investments when necessary To be the public face of the fund To arrange all necessary votes To ensure all other Directors are doing their duties To make payments to auditors To ensure the fund as a whole is working satisfactorily Corporate Governance The fund will at all times be composed of no more and no less than 5 active and engaged Directors, or be in the process of filling vacant Directors' seats with all reasonable expediency The Board of Directors will at all times be composed of no more and no less than one active and engaged Chairman and one active and engaged Vice-Chairman from among the 5 Directors, or be in the process of appointing one with all reasonable expediency All Directors will be appointed for 2 month terms, with the option to renew their term providing their performance has been satisfactory Each Chairman will appointed for a 3 month term, with a new election after every term, though past Chairmen may run again providing their performance has been satisfactory A nomination period of 1 week will take place on the MD forum prior to a Director's seat opening up, where each nominee's suitability is open for discussion. The Board of Directors will then hold a yea or nay vote, where the candidate with the most ôyeaös will be appointed. In the event of a tie, a further eliminating vote will be taken to choose between the tied candidates A new Chairman will be appointed by a majority vote from among the Board of Directors, and only after a full complement of active and engaged directors is established The Vice-Chairman will be appointed from among the Board of Directors at the discretion of the Chairman for a minimum one month term Any Director can be dismissed by a majority vote of the remaining Directors, but only after a suitable case demonstrating a dereliction of duty has been made Any Chairman can be dismissed by a unanimous vote of the remaining Directors, but only after a suitable case demonstrating a dereliction of duty has been made In any tied vote, the Chairman's vote will count as 2 votes and break the tie
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:54:00 - [4] reserved
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.02 17:55:00 - [5] reserved
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.02 18:47:00 - [6] As you can see, we still need a little under 5b in donations to ensure an adequate income-stream. These donation are eventually recoverable, with the 1 month warning period giving the Fund ample time to replace withdrawals. Donations can be made to the Chairman's (Ji Sama) Fund alt Baldr Odinsson or directly to the Executor Bad Bobby, pending his confirmation that this is acceptable.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:06:00 - [7] Thank you for taking the time to write this up Setrak, very good job :)
Skarii TuThess Lansez Innovations	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:11:00 - [8] Great post - put me down for 1bn
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.03.02 20:18:00 - [9] Confirming that I have accepted a position as director. Free jumpclone service\|874 stations - Truly Universal
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.03.02 23:12:00 - [10] Originally by: Estel Arador Confirming that I have accepted a position as director. Welcome aboard.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.03 00:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Skarii TuThess Great post - put me down for 1bn Thank you. And thanks for the very generous contribution. 4b to go.
Krythas	Posted - 2010.03.03 05:58:00 - [12] You can put me down for 500M pending an audit.. <g> (ok, only kidding about the audit) I assume funds are to be sent to Bad Bobby ?
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.03.03 07:03:00 - [13] Yes, donations can be sent directly to me. Please mark them with "MD audit fund" or something similar.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.03 18:48:00 - [14] Originally by: Krythas You can put me down for 500M pending an audit.. <g> (ok, only kidding about the audit) I assume funds are to be sent to Bad Bobby ? Thank you. Another very generous donation. 3.5b to go. Let's get this last 3.5b filled. Think of your donation as an investment. Better auditing resources means more good offers and more productive members of the MD community. Not only do members make money for others, they also expand and deepen the game experience. Let's bring in the next Akita T, Proton Power, Bad Bobby, Cosmoray, Block Ulx (sp?), etc, people who enrich the game for everyone. /speech
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.03 18:50:00 - [15] I will transfer the 7.65B the fund holds to BB asap.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.03 21:44:00 - [16] 7.65B ISK transfered to Bad Bobby, reason; MD Audit Fund
Krythas	Posted - 2010.03.04 04:22:00 - [17] 500M ISK transferred to Bad Bobby, reason: MD Audit fund
Skarii TuThess Lansez Innovations	Posted - 2010.03.04 07:51:00 - [18] 1bn transferred to Bad Bobby; MD Audit Fund
Companion Trollin You are going too fast	Posted - 2010.03.04 11:17:00 - [19] I have 17m isk, can I help?
Keyser Kahn Stellar-Parallax Corp	Posted - 2010.03.04 12:08:00 - [20] Edited by: Keyser Kahn on 04/03/2010 12:10:33 Put me down for 1b - will transfer to BB later when I get into game. Edited to add: realised server was back up - 1b transferred to Bad Bobby o/
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.04 15:26:00 - [21] Originally by: Keyser Kahn Put me down for 1b - will transfer to BB later when I get into game. Edited to add: realised server was back up - 1b transferred to Bad Bobby Another massive donation. Thank you. 2.5b to go. We're basically there.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.04 15:28:00 - [22] 2.35B :p
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.04 19:33:00 - [23] Lets fill the last 2.35B... I am giving this 12 more hours, otherwise ill just fill it myself.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.04 20:35:00 - [24] Patience Ji - the thread has only been up for 2 days.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.04 20:45:00 - [25] Oh i could raise it, I just want to get started :)
Skarii TuThess Lansez Innovations	Posted - 2010.03.04 23:11:00 - [26] You could cover the amount for now, and have any further donations up to 2.35bn outstanding replace this cover?
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.05 00:55:00 - [27] Originally by: Skarii TuThess You could cover the amount for now, and have any further donations up to 2.35bn outstanding replace this cover? This is an excellent idea to get things going. In my opinion it is desirable that we have as many donors from outside the board as possible to ensure that the fund does appear as a public institution and not a toy belonging to the directors, so it would be great, and very generous, if you could provide what's needed to get things started quickly but without abandoning or prejudicing the drive. People need to know that the fund does still need their donations and that investors can't expect to have an indefinite free ride on TMPI's back.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.05 01:35:00 - [28] Edited by: Ji Sama on 05/03/2010 01:35:12 good idea :) i dont mind anyone replacing TMPI's donations. I am doing this to get it started and on its feet, I do not expect to hold the chairman position for long either, I am hoping someone more competent will come forward once this ball is rolling, we already have a good number of candidates amongst our directors, that are far more qualified for this than me :)
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.03.05 07:12:00 - [29] Donations received by me: 7.65b from Baldr Odinsson 0.5b from Krythas 1b from Skarii TuThess 1b from Keyser Kahn 10.15b / 12.5b As soon as that figure hits 12.5b I'll send the 500m interest payment to Ji so that the fund can start paying for audits.
Keyser Kahn Stellar-Parallax Corp	Posted - 2010.03.05 07:50:00 - [30] Sent an additional 2.35B to Bad Bobby Unless my reading comprehension fails that should bring the fund up to full operational capacity. Have fun o/
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.03.05 08:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Keyser Kahn Sent an additional 2.35B to Bad Bobby Unless my reading comprehension fails that should bring the fund up to full operational capacity. Have fun o/ Confirmed. 500m sent to Baldr Odinsson.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.05 10:43:00 - [32] Originally by: Keyser Kahn Sent an additional 2.35B to Bad Bobby Unless my reading comprehension fails that should bring the fund up to full operational capacity. Have fun o/ Here he comes to save the day :)
Keyser Kahn Stellar-Parallax Corp	Posted - 2010.03.05 12:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Keyser Kahn Sent an additional 2.35B to Bad Bobby Unless my reading comprehension fails that should bring the fund up to full operational capacity. Have fun o/ Here he comes to save the day :) nah just couldn't resist the juicy ROI... Fake Edit: doh just re-read OP - lols
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.03.05 13:42:00 - [34] Originally by: Keyser Kahn just couldn't resist the juicy ROI... Fake Edit: doh just re-read OP - lols I'm promissing nothing, but if the enterprise that I am investing this isk into does well enough to justify it I will consider raising the interest payment and directing the extra percentiles to the donor's pockets rather than the auditor's.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.05 14:31:00 - [35] Originally by: Keyser Kahn Sent an additional 2.35B to Bad Bobby Unless my reading comprehension fails that should bring the fund up to full operational capacity. Have fun o/ Wow...dude...amazing generosity. Thanks.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.05 15:02:00 - [36] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Keyser Kahn Sent an additional 2.35B to Bad Bobby Unless my reading comprehension fails that should bring the fund up to full operational capacity. Have fun o/ Wow...dude...amazing generosity. Thanks. Yea he is like that ;)
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:14:00 - [37] Sweet :) Free jumpclone service\|874 stations - Truly Universal
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:17:00 - [38] We are now active. A huge thanks to everyone who contributed input, time, money, anything.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.08 06:21:00 - [39] Yes, a huge thank you to all the donators for making this happen :) Fund is now LIVE. Clients and Auditors, apply now :)
Magnu Stormhawk Stormhawk Enterprises	Posted - 2010.03.08 12:30:00 - [40] Congrats on the launch - It's a great initiative.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.11 02:43:00 - [41] Edited by: SetrakDark on 11/03/2010 02:43:44 Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 11/03/2010 01:24:54 March Activity Tracker ->500m disbursed from Executor to Chairman - 5th ->Troy Industries - 10th -Participation confirmed; approval vote started - 10th -Approved; auditor selection started - 10th For those interested parties, this will be the nature of the transparency effort tracking all the Fund's activity.
Ave Volta Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2010.03.11 07:06:00 - [42] Nice to see the fund being put into action, I wish it the best. I'm curious, since it sounds like there will be multiple auditors working on the Troy Industries offer, will the all the individual auditors release their own results / report? Or will they be combined into a comprehensive report highlighting key points and standouts from each audit? Reading through detailed audit results can be time consuming even for a single audit so it might be nice to get a summary if it's feasable. Just my 0.02 isk -------------------------------- chown -R us:us /yourbase
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.11 12:43:00 - [43] No, there will only be one auditor.
Drachiel	Posted - 2010.03.13 01:44:00 - [44] I would like to apply for an audit in relation to my bond at http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1283788
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.13 14:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Drachiel I would like to apply for an audit in relation to my bond at http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1283788 From reading your thread as of 5 minutes ago, it seems you no longer require our services. Please let us know if this is not the case or if circumstances change.
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.03.13 14:52:00 - [46] Originally by: Drachiel I would like to apply for an audit in relation to my bond at http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1283788 One flaw in your proposal is that you want to use the loaned isk for station trading and buying a ratting ship. It seems you've already managed to get the requested amount, but an improvement to your offer would've been to use all the loaned isk for trading and funding the ratting ship from your own cash. In that case it's also clear what an audit should show (that you're making money actively trading); the ratting ship would complicate things, as the audit would not only have to show that you're making money trading and ratting but also that the trading and ratting are a sensible combination (could you have made more isk just trading, or just ratting?). Since you don't seem to need the audit to get the cash, I'd suggest you run your loan and arrange for an audit near the end, to confirm that you did with the cash what you said you'd do. As far as I'm concerned you could apply to the fund for such an after-the-fact audit, but the decision on whether or not to grant it is up to the BoD as always. Free jumpclone service\|924 stations - 6000+ users
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.16 09:13:00 - [47] 60M sent from Baldr Odinsson to Lord Arbalest! Reason: Audit Approved
Abervest	Posted - 2010.03.17 05:01:00 - [48] what is a reasonable price for an audit? I have not contacted any auditors for a price check, nor am i attempting a fund/bond/loan at this time, Im just curious how much an audit would cost. What kind of range is there? I know its most likely based on how many characters/accounts are in need of auditing, but theres a baseline somewhere. and if this isnt an appropriate place to ask, point me in the right direction please.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.17 09:49:00 - [49] Edited by: Ji Sama on 17/03/2010 09:49:07 I would say 60-100M per audit! Not counting continious pay for perfomance audits etc. edit: per account
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.17 10:16:00 - [50] Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 17/03/2010 09:49:07 I would say 60-100M per audit! Not counting continious pay for perfomance audits etc. edit: per account 60-100M per account? And this is further paid by the fund? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.03.17 10:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha 60-100M per account? And this is further paid by the fund? The BoD decides on a case by case basis how much the fund will contribute. The price of an audit will depend on the complexity of the offer and on the number of accounts involved. I'd say it'd be about 50M for a simple offer involving one account and 150M for a complex offer involving multiple accounts, which is more or less in line with what Ji said (his assessment might be a bit higher). Free jumpclone service\|924 stations - 6000+ users
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.17 10:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Abervest and if this isnt an appropriate place to ask, point me in the right direction please. For lack of a better place, besides maybe it's own thread, here is fine. However, I'll stress that you're asking the opinion of 5 individuals who agree on a price or an acceptable price range on a case by case basis, and only from the demand side. We don't set a fee schedule institutionally, and it would violate our mandate if we were too attempt to control audit prices. Furthermore, other people are welcome to weigh in here with their own opinions on prices. As to my personal opinion, a fact-verification audit can g as low as maybe 5-10m. However, I think a basic background check and plan verification/evaluation should run from 40m-150m, depending mostly on the number of accounts but also on numerous other factors.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.17 11:44:00 - [53] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 17/03/2010 09:49:07 I would say 60-100M per audit! Not counting continious pay for perfomance audits etc. edit: per account 60-100M per account? And this is further paid by the fund? As Estel and Setrak have emphasised, the fund will decide its contribution on a case by case basis. But Ji's estimate seems in the right sort of range. VV - One of the purposes of the audit fund is to help subsidise these costs so as to make auditing a more attractive career option. Supporting bargain basement fees would be counter productive from this perspective. That's not to say we would cover the full cost for expensive audits, only that we can help to make a lengthy and involved audit something other than charity work on the auditor's behalf.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.17 13:09:00 - [54] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 17/03/2010 13:09:35 Quote: VV - One of the purposes of the audit fund is to help subsidise these costs so as to make auditing a more attractive career option. Supporting bargain basement fees would be counter productive from this perspective Well, look at another perspective: all those not helped by the fund are going to have to ask for bargain basement fees. The investee is going to shell basically nothing, the auditor is getting paid quite well. The other auditors instead would have to have the investee spend much more (the whole thing actually) and thus cannot compete with subsidized costs by far. Hmm, this is going to be an hairy thing in the long term. "The auditing profession is not valued enough". Two possible answers: - european way (staples to artificially keep agricolture alive) - pure economy (everyone quits till the profession becomes so rare that people will pay enough to make it worthwhile). Ah, the dilemma. And it sounds like a long term lose / lose situation. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.17 13:26:00 - [55] Edited by: RAW23 on 17/03/2010 13:27:16 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 17/03/2010 13:09:35 Quote: VV - One of the purposes of the audit fund is to help subsidise these costs so as to make auditing a more attractive career option. Supporting bargain basement fees would be counter productive from this perspective Well, look at another perspective: all those not helped by the fund are going to have to ask for bargain basement fees. The investee is going to shell basically nothing, the auditor is getting paid quite well. The other auditors instead would have to have the investee spend much more (the whole thing actually) and thus cannot compete with subsidized costs by far. Hmm, this is going to be an hairy thing in the long term. "The auditing profession is not valued enough". Two possible answers: - european way (staples to artificially keep agricolture alive) - pure economy (everyone quits till the profession becomes so rare that people will pay enough to make it worthwhile). Ah, the dilemma. And it sounds like a long term lose / lose situation. I take your points but I think the situation here is slightly different. The audit fund does not try to subsidise an economically pointless industry for political and/or social gain. Rather, the idea here is just to ensure, through a voluntary mechanism, that both the parties who gain from audits, the investors and the investees, pay their shares. The fund is funded by donations from the investor community and, as such, does not provide a subsidy but, rather, provides a mechanism for that community to pay for a service that is valuable to it. Of course, there will be free-riders who get the benefit withhout donating, so there is some charitable aspect to the donations (donors are shouldering a slightly larger burden than they would, all things being equal). But as a donor I don't see my donation as simple charity - I am buying a service for myself as my own investment opportunities would suffer in the second scenario you identify (auditors become very rare). Basically, the fund is just a creative attempt to provide market value for a service that is logistically difficult to support due to the multiple beneficiaries involved. The willingness to pay more has the same motivation as upping a buy order for trit in the hope that it will fill quickly, rather than upping a buy order for trit out of a desire to subsidise the mining profession.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.17 15:19:00 - [56] It's a case of market failure. Unfortunately, we have no mechanisms for intervening except charitable subsidies, either from auditors in the form of unpaid/underpaid service or from a charitable trust subsidizing audits. Therefore, instead of relying on the charity of auditors to keep things running, we're relying on the charity of donors who either identify some self-interest or pleasure from helping others. I strongly believe that it's better to rely on the generosity of a few patrons and support some semblance of a auditing profession than to rely on the generosity of those willing to do unpaid or underpaid audits. With the Fund we've just laid the incentive for more auditors and better auditing; next we have to remove some of the informational barriers and defunct conventions that impede interested people from auditing. As far as "pricing out" audit buyers, everyone was already "priced out", we're actually opening access up to people.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.18 12:04:00 - [57] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha All those not helped by the fund are going to have to ask for bargain basement fees. Rubbish. I performed two audits for newish players recently. The bonds were sub-one billion. Both paid the fees requested without demur, one paid for a performance audit too. Quote: The investee is going to shell basically nothing, the auditor is getting paid quite well. The other auditors instead would have to have the investee spend much more (the whole thing actually) and thus cannot compete with subsidized costs by far. Hmm, this is going to be an hairy thing in the long term. Ah, the dilemma. And it sounds like a long term lose / lose situation. Please. Enough with your usual overly-complicated alarmist stuff. Why can't you drop the hair shirt and ashes approach for once and try a more constructive approach?
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2010.03.18 12:19:00 - [58] Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 18/03/2010 12:19:22 Charity is good - even the most hardened capitalist will tell you that, so long as it is for a worthy cause. Nothing is more worthy than the pursuit of profit and the creation of new wealth and capital. VV, your moral equivocations need to be reigned in - you are approaching the borderline that separates the strong, morally upright people from the degenerate and the confused. When it comes to the pursuit of profit, there is every reason to have faith in the charity of the wealthy - so have faith
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.18 14:39:00 - [59] Quote: Please. Enough with your usual overly-complicated alarmist stuff. Why can't you drop the hair shirt and ashes approach for once and try a more constructive approach? Now, look at who broke balls left and right about auditing for months, before others jumped on the bandwagon, and look at the effects (this very fund is a derivation of months of crying and pushing people into awareness, because I don't know how to do it different). Finally, you are going to have an easy life with new people asking for audits because all those who are asking me, I tell them to go and ask at you anyway.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.19 04:49:00 - [60] After completing our first test as a working institution, we'd like to propose a small change resulting from our experience. The BoD will no longer be selecting auditors; rather we will be approving or disapproving a manager's auditor selection. This approval will take the form of ensuring that the donors' money is not wasted on clearly unqualified or under-qualified audits, leaving the rest in the hands of the person to whom it matters the most. The impetus for this change is primarily procedural. The original auditor selection method was put in place for its straightforwardness. However, it requires a lot of back and forth both internally and externally, especially with subsidized audits, to ensure that a mutually satisfactory arrangement is made. By allowing the manager to make his own decision within the Fund's acceptable limits, we prevent the Fund's participation from becoming a burden to those we try to help. Our standard is to ensure that our donors' money isn't wasted, everything else should be at the manager's discretion, as it is his offer. Thematically, this change represents a lessening of the Fund's centrality in auditing, which was an almost unanimously supported position in the discussion of and formation of the Fund. Relevant changes: Managers The managers of eligible offers will be contacted by a Director to confirm their interest in receiving a free or subsidized audit, or managers may contact the Fund in advance of an offer. The Directors will then confirm or deny the offer's eligibility after reviewing the offer and a brief Q&A period. Approved offers will be quoted the Fund's contribution, which is predicated on the BoD's final approval of the manager's auditor selection. Managers are encouraged to inform themselves of the nature of audits and this Fund before making any decisions. Auditors The Fund's contribution will be quoted to the manager for each approved offer. It is then at the manager's discretion to negotiate the terms of the audit. However, the Fund's contribution requires final approval of the auditor selection by the BoD. Auditors with no experience are encouraged to perform voluntary fact-check audits (under the 001 Audits Program (link)) on very small offers to hone their skills and create a public record of their work. Mandate To approve a manager's auditor selection and provide payment for completed audits Process An audit contribution will be quoted for the offer. The BoD will then approve or disapprove of the manager's auditor selection
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.19 10:32:00 - [61] Thank you Setrak, GJ :)
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.04.04 20:10:00 - [62] 500m sent to Baldr Odinsson for this month's funding.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.04.04 20:34:00 - [63] Recieved thank you ...
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.04.05 03:57:00 - [64] March was a slow month on MD. The BoD is currently in a casual discussion of our various options should the pace continue. Other than that everything is running great. Terms are open for renewal this month, so we'll have an update on that within 2 weeks or so.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.04.05 04:06:00 - [65] April Activity Tracker ->500m disbursed from Executor to Chairman - 4th
Companion Trollin You are going too fast	Posted - 2010.04.05 04:41:00 - [66] Originally by: SetrakDark March was a slow month on MD. The BoD is currently in a casual discussion of our various options should the pace continue. Other than that everything is running great. Terms are open for renewal this month, so we'll have an update on that within 2 weeks or so. I think if you have slow months you should give out all of your spare cash in uncollateralized loans. Think about it: you have all this cash doing nothing, if you let it sit around your potential profit is squandered. Clearly this is your best option.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.04.05 04:43:00 - [67] Originally by: Companion Trollin I think if you have slow months you should give out all of your spare cash in uncollateralized loans. Think about it: you have all this cash doing nothing, if you let it sit around your potential profit is squandered. Clearly this is your best option. ISK sent.
Drachiel Caldari Mercury LLC	Posted - 2010.04.12 06:46:00 - [68] I would like to request an audit in reference to my new bond, which can be found here: Linkage I will have your stuff.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.04.12 06:51:00 - [69] Originally by: Drachiel I would like to request an audit in reference to my new bond, which can be found here: Linkage We don't "do" audits: "Approved offers will be quoted the Fund's contribution, which is predicated on the BoD's final approval of the manager's auditor selection." I started an approval vote. Should have a confirmation and contribution quote or denial within 24 hours.
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.04.30 23:58:00 - [70] I would like to apply for an audit. please see my thread at http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1309874 I would like to request an auditor NOT engaged in station trading. Clearly there would be a conflict of interest for anyone engaged in that business.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.05.01 00:37:00 - [71] You select your own auditor. Vote started.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.05.01 01:14:00 - [72] Originally by: Machete Visor I would like to apply for an audit. please see my thread at http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1309874 I would like to request an auditor NOT engaged in station trading. Clearly there would be a conflict of interest for anyone engaged in that business. Wrong criteria for selection. In this case the auditor will need to be at least competent at station trading to evaluate whether your trading patterns match your claims or not. If you want to reject an auditor you need to do it on grounds of trust, not on grounds of access to certain info. If an auditor can't be trusted with this info he can't be trusted at all.
Check 1234	Posted - 2010.05.01 01:20:00 - [73] Originally by: Machete Visor I would like to apply for an audit. please see my thread at http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1309874 I would like to request an auditor NOT engaged in station trading. Clearly there would be a conflict of interest for anyone engaged in that business. Why? So you stand a greater chance of scamming because you hire an auditor who doesn't understand what you are doing? Makes no sense unless you are trying to deceive or scam. Every post you make makes you look more and more like a potential scammer.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.05.01 10:16:00 - [74] Edited by: SetrakDark on 01/05/2010 10:18:01 May Activity Tracker Interest disbursement delayed until the end of the month to align with a normal interest payment schedule - 1st
Felix Jugo	Posted - 2010.05.04 09:42:00 - [75] Thanks for considering my case.
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.05.20 08:18:00 - [76] Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 03/05/2010 11:37:41 April Activity Tracker 500m disbursed from Executor to Chairman - 4th Drachiel - 12th Participation confirmed; approval vote started - 12th Approved; auditor selection started - 12th 4 Directors' seats renewed - 23rd Kalni Trade Bond 2 - 25th Participation confirmed; approval vote started - 25th Approved; auditor selection started - 25th Auditor selected; audit started - 25th Audit completed; 50m payment delayed due to brief Chairman hiatus - 3rd (May) Machete Visor - 29th Participation confirmed; approval vote started - 30th Approved; auditor selection started - 1st (May) Auditor selected; audit started - 3rd (May) Setrak - Varo Jan has compelted his audit, posted the report and been fully compensated.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.06.04 06:32:00 - [77] 500m sent to MD Financial Services.
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.04 06:57:00 - [78] Edited by: SetrakDark on 04/06/2010 06:57:41 June Activity Tracker 500m disbursed from Executor to Chairman - 4th Surplus interest disbursed to donors pro rata - 4th
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.06.24 20:04:00 - [79] We have a director's seat opening in July. The full details can be found in the charter, but I will summarize the basics: -Very light responsibility. Satisfactory participation requires logging in every 1-2 days and 5-10 minutes considering each of 1-4 votes per month. -2 month renewable term. -Some basic history of productive MD participation is required, but the standard is very loose. Diversity of opinion is an institutional goal. -Nomination period will last 6 days (due to extended DT), after which the BoD will select the new director. Self-nominations and public discussion of nominees are both encouraged. I'm a little sick, so the presentation is lackluster. I encourage all questions, and I will do my best to answer them. The Fund is designed to act at the whim of 5 individuals, so I can only answer certain questions for myself, though other directors may inject their opinions where they see fit.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.25 03:09:00 - [80] Originally by: SetrakDark We have a director's seat opening in July. Who is stepping down? Quote: Nomination period will last 6 days (due to extended DT), after which the BoD will select the new director. Self-nominations and public discussion of nominees are both encouraged. I nominate: flakeys Mme Pinkerton Taram Caldar
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.06.25 07:11:00 - [81] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 25/06/2010 07:16:59 Originally by: Varo Jan I nominate: flakeys Mme Pinkerton Taram Caldar I would not accept this position, please consider my nomination immaterial. (edit: this is not meant to be a verdict about the audit fund per se or anything along these lines - I just don't accept any BoD positions or comparable commitments as a personal rule)
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.06.25 10:35:00 - [82] Originally by: Varo Jan Who is stepping down? I am. Time constraints being the main reason. Though Setrak is right that actual participation in the fund only takes very little time, it is my opinion that for proper participation one should keep track of what's going on on MD; since I haven't really been able to do that, I decided to step down. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.06.25 12:23:00 - [83] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Varo Jan Who is stepping down? I am. Thank you for helping us get this going.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.25 14:10:00 - [84] Ok, time to post some long piece of garbage of mine. It's quite a while I keep an eye on those MD Audit Fund threads. For some reason I never had the time to ponder well, the whole idea under this initiative never "clicked" in my feelings. Today I had an huge 5 minutes of respite after 9 months of slavery and I got pondering why by instinct I have never been a supporter neither of this initiative nor for the "0.01 ISK auditors". It's because they somehow remind me of the EU abortions (I have no other term) about heavy protectionism "for" milk producers and generally other "design by committee" mentality initiatives. No one cares to value auditing beyond a pittance? IE demand is approaching zero? Let's pump in some welfare auditors! Exactly like the corresponding RL initiatives, all it yields is not fixing the problem but lower the overall quality of the category. Investees are so bad at discipline that they want a bond for 500M NAO instead of 1-2B in 1 month? Here we give them subsidized auditors paid by someone else. No surprise this led to: - Further drop in interest by the auditors who prided for their professionalism. Being framed into a guaranteed, ghetto position? It's better to just not do it. Investors and market will setup and discount the appropriate price like in an healthy economy. - The 0.01 ISK auditors? Crickets or almost. - MD Audit Fund? Directors quitting, main thread locked for inactivity, Setradark figthing to keep interest on the matter, in a sea of indifference. Now enough time has passed in the experiment to draw the first conclusions and see if something can be done to improve it. Imho the whole thing should stop being subsidized. If auditing is useless (like some morons preach in every way since months, for their scammy alts interest of course) the drop it. Period. Otherwise make auditors want to be auditors and not welfare clerks. I have much more respect for Cosmoray's "let me check you out, I'll fully fund you" past initiatives. He's acting much more like an enterpreneur, a venture capitalist. The MD Audit Fund should stop being a welfare money sink and start netting revenue. IE have the fund become venture capital. Possible flow: 1) New investee tries the umpteenth offer and as usual he gets "reserves pending audit". 2) At this point Setradark or another MD Audit Fund show up and tell him that he can get a percentage of the requested capital off them. The amount of capital coud be 100% of the offering (see next points). 3) Setradark or another director contact an auditor (NOT the investee) off their pool and have him quickly gauge the offering. If it's worthwhile, then the operation can proceed. 4) The auditor does his job and takes a percentage (NOT a fixed fee, not entirely at least) of the profits at maturity. 5) The fund splits the interests with the auditor. What does the above mechanism achieve: - Fund becomes a truly active part beyond playing "pockets". Promise of reward and actually doing something beyond BoD clerk makes less directors want to quit. - Investors finally get competition. They are viced by the fact they ALWAYS just DEMAND security without ever a downside to it. Now, they'll have to earn their unused ISK a place (ie by hiring their own consultants or consorting with the Fund) or have someone else reap the interests. - Best investors above stop being donors and become shareholders. They invest in the Fund which in turn earns them the profits off the investees. - Auditors feel needed and motivated and paid for their work. Being (only) paid by percentage helps them actually strive to promote winning horses and not the beggars. Of course there will be side effects and even downsides but I am confident they are minor bumps compared to the slowly bleeding to death systems we have today. Down with the loser committee welfare designs, UP with free market! - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.06.25 15:09:00 - [85] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Down with the loser committee welfare designs, UP with free market! scammy alt signing in Maybe you should start by explaining how the free market managed to provide you an adequate compensation for your auditing services before the loser welfare committee advertised in this thread came around. Your nice little payment scheme gives the auditor reason to want the offering getting filled, no matter what he discovered while looking through the information available to him. If the offering does not get filled he takes a certain loss, if the offering does get filled he has at least the chance to receive payment for his work. If he is concerned about his reputation he will insert his doubts into some wall of text (so he can respond to ex-post criticism with "told you so, l2r") but you should never expect to see him trying to grab the attention of his readers while reporting "red flags".
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.06.25 16:16:00 - [86] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha load of garbage "doing something beyond BoD clerk makes less directors want to quit". How many directors 'want to quit'? How many cited 'BoD clerk' as the reason? "The auditor (...) takes a percentage (...) of the profits". Profits are pathetic in most cases. 2B at 5% would barely give the auditor fair compensation, if he got all of the profits. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.06.25 16:18:00 - [87] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha - MD Audit Fund? Directors quitting, main thread locked for inactivity, Setradark figthing to keep interest on the matter, in a sea of indifference. This is a farcical mischaracterization of events. 1) Directors are supposed to quit. It was designed to be flexible and encourage director change. 2) This is the only thread. 3) I only post my monthly activity tracker, which was a promised element of the transparency commitment, or answer questions. Honestly, to me that line demonstrates either your complete lack of awareness of what you're trying to talk about or that you have some odd agenda such that you are willing to post blatant falsehoods. Either way it doesn't encourage me to engage with you in a substantial way. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha The MD Audit Fund should stop being a welfare money sink and start netting revenue. IE have the fund become venture capital. Possible flow: 1) New investee tries the umpteenth offer and as usual he gets "reserves pending audit". 2) At this point Setradark or another MD Audit Fund show up and tell him that he can get a percentage of the requested capital off them. The amount of capital coud be 100% of the offering (see next points). 3) Setradark or another director contact an auditor (NOT the investee) off their pool and have him quickly gauge the offering. If it's worthwhile, then the operation can proceed. 4) The auditor does his job and takes a percentage (NOT a fixed fee, not entirely at least) of the profits at maturity. 5) The fund splits the interests with the auditor. What does the above mechanism achieve: - Fund becomes a truly active part beyond playing "pockets". Promise of reward and actually doing something beyond BoD clerk makes less directors want to quit. - Investors finally get competition. They are viced by the fact they ALWAYS just DEMAND security without ever a downside to it. Now, they'll have to earn their unused ISK a place (ie by hiring their own consultants or consorting with the Fund) or have someone else reap the interests. - Best investors above stop being donors and become shareholders. They invest in the Fund which in turn earns them the profits off the investees. - Auditors feel needed and motivated and paid for their work. Being (only) paid by percentage helps them actually strive to promote winning horses and not the beggars. This would be an entirely different organization. I encourage you to let loose the power of competition and create this organization yourself. Then we can let the free market decide between the two.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.06.25 16:33:00 - [88] Originally by: SetrakDark This would be an entirely different organization. I encourage you to let loose the power of competition and create this organization yourself. Then we can let the free market decide between the two. TBH, When I was getting the ball rolling on this after Bobby came up with the idea, I had also envisioned this expanding into other areas of use for the MD community.
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.06.25 16:46:00 - [89] I'm personally open to change or improvement, but: 1) Those who participated in the formation left us a very tight mandate 2) I personally do not have the time to organize a structural shift, nor does my position require me to This is a community project, anyone is welcome to propose changes, do the work, and drum up the requisite support. However, if you want to change the entire organization, as in VV's case, it would be easier to just start a new one.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.25 17:09:00 - [90] In the original discussion thread, I said: "Random thought - this could develop into a Community Chest to be used not just for audit fees. I¦m thinking of community funding for projects that benefit the community as a whole - such as financial/trading related applications." Still think that's viable - as an extension of this fund. As to VV's diatribe - nuff said.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.06.25 18:14:00 - [91] I agree, the long term plan of the fund, was a community chest of thoughts! This is still possible! Currently though, we voted against expanding capitol of the fund, and we are also currently paying excess funds, back to the contributers, instead of reinvesting, or diversifying our portfolio. However I have not have the time to put anything fourth, at the present time, and currently Setrak is doing all the work in the fund, with the rest of us just riding along! (throwing an educated vote from time to time)
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.26 05:58:00 - [92] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 26/06/2010 06:03:24 I knew I'd move the stagnant MD waters for those five minutes. Quote: Maybe you should start by explaining how the free market managed to provide you an adequate compensation for your auditing services before the loser welfare committee advertised in this thread came around. Scammy alt or not, your statements are actually more in depth than some of the other prevedible reactions. It did, for several months. To someone who had 2M SP, 20-30M per audit were not bad, expecially since it helped the 2M SP guy also learn things about the game as collateral consequences. Then both audits and pay increased over time, up to a ceiling. The ceiling is determined by the maximum payment expectancy. The majority of those needing an audit are not the 100B bond issuers, they are more of the 500M-8B crowd. This means audits have some upper constraints due to the low-ish amounts involved. Outliers would be those fat operations but as I posted days ago, the fat operations are in the hands of a quite restricted number of people who are "Just Trusted" and thus little money can be made with them. Therefore, once you get to like 100M, it becomes increasingly harder to keep up auditing revenue with YOUR "other ways" own earning income capability. This becomes expecially true in periods where good investees are less around and all you get are low-value and low-hope-to-make-it offers. So, to cut it short, the free market yielded adequate compensation (not just in "bare ISKs") up to a point and then it ceiled. This is a pattern I can recognize in most "were-auditors". Quote: Your nice little payment scheme gives the auditor reason to want the offering getting filled, no matter what he discovered while looking through the information available to him. Demand and offer, greed and fear aka market, or didn't you notice what happened to whom "passed" too many investees and got a string of scams and got flamed and dissed well and round? Quote: but you should never expect to see him trying to grab the attention of his readers while reporting "red flags". This is what happens with several "public" activities IRL, there's a choice between short term profit and staying in the field because of being universally recognized as honest and reliable. I don't believe in the existance of 100% no downsides, all good solutions, the above is something that is less subsidized than what we got. As of now - and I am surprised you missed it - we get what instead? Auditors who are "paid anyway" (edit: this is regardless of this fund) who get less kick to deliver a quality work. There's not a feedback between pay and outcome and see how it works well in IRL. Quote: "doing something beyond BoD clerk makes less directors want to quit". How many directors 'want to quit'? How many cited 'BoD clerk' as the reason? Feel free to stop lying to yourself, in the meanwhile enjoy how it's nice to have done criticism on you since you usually impose it on the others and yet don't invest to put your wallet where tongue is. Quote: Profits are pathetic in most cases. 2B at 5% would barely give the auditor fair compensation, if he got all of the profits Then something is wrong with "2B", "5%" or "fair compensation". Does not mean it deserve protectionism. Milk producers at least got the excuse they often do it since generations and invested lifetimes in their operations. Internet spaceship gamers who can switch at day's notice? No. If the pay is too low it is because of market: - current auditors income capabilities outgrew the small new investments sizes. - no one gives a toss about it. - their role is not seen as "worth enough" to grant an higher price. => Auditors close down shop. Some have the gonads to cut it. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.26 05:59:00 - [93] You are damaging auditors by (failing to tbh) keeping their numbers high and their game low value. You are just doing the game of lazy and investors who don't want to pay for risk information and who ALWAYS believe larger investments = 10000% safe investee and therefore auditors have little hope to see scaling up income off a 40-50B operation. Auditors will be fixed the day they can say: "I could have <missioned \| ratted \| whatever> in these 4 hours, but an audit came up and mere convenience pushes me to do it instead of the above activities". Failing the above is failing the profession. Auditors are not "zero day miners" who don't have a clue and therefore work at a sensible loss. After a while of being talked "responsibility" and "be useful for the community" they do learn they are being USED and underpaid. The fact you see "2B, 5%" or whatever, does not mean a toss, for the SAME reason a trader won't give a toss on a tiny volume, tiny spread market. He just switches over to something better. Quote: This would be an entirely different organization. I encourage you to let loose the power of competition and create this organization yourself. Then we can let the free market decide between the two The rest was obvious, so I skip your little wall like you skipped mine. About this quote, it shows you are acting out of reality like RL Bruxelles "institutions". No. One. Gives. A. F*. Except me, you and possibly an handful of other delusional people over MD. Your fund is being ignored until it's time to get some clearly out-of-market investment rolling, then you are called to subsidize an audit on it. What's wrong is exactly that: you are the "NPC insurance of investments", when one is not good or strong enough they resort to you. Did Julian Koll need to be subsidized to show off he had the 'nads to be trusted? Did James Tundra? Did Brock Nelson? Did Priue Nvidess? Or a large number of others? No, they just HTFU and by doing that they shown they were worth the trust. By catering to the lowliest all we got in the last months are pathetic, bad made little bonds with no care. By subsidizing all you got is that instead of a professional customer => auditor relation we got to the point of getting bulk mailed for "just a quick and cheap audit" like we are commodities. Now, listen to Breaker77 and Ji Sama, they can give good advice and they are "interns" therefore will want to spend kinder words with you than I'd ever want to. Quote:** if you want to change the entire organization, as in VV's case, it would be easier to just start a new one There are fantastic attorneys and fantastic law firms. Not every fantastic attorney is due to be any good at being a CEO and organize others. I neither have the time, nor the motivation to start a new organization, this is why I am spending time to write here instead of doing it. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.06.26 10:29:00 - [94] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: "doing something beyond BoD clerk makes less directors want to quit". How many directors 'want to quit'? How many cited 'BoD clerk' as the reason? Feel free to stop lying to yourself, in the meanwhile enjoy how it's nice to have done criticism on you since you usually impose it on the others and yet don't invest to put your wallet where tongue is. You made a statement, I asked you to support it. If a personal attack is all the 'support' you can give for the statement, the statement probably is the BS I thought it was. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.06.26 15:27:00 - [95] Actually the main point of the audit fund was to increase pay for auditors. As VV pointed out most of the people needing audits are in the low offering range (5 bil or less). For someone needing an audit for a 1 billion offering, sometimes 100 million is tough to come up with. This was supposed to subsidize that payment to get more offerings (hopefully better offerings) available. It's not our fault that when an auditor is contacted they just tell the guy, hey I'll do it for 50 million. They should make a quote that will cover their time, within reason. Obviously most people, or the fund, won't payout 200 million for a 1 billion offering. The biggest issue, which it has always been, is that no matter what, auditing takes a lot of time and is low paying. No one wants to do an audit that covers 3 accounts, verify all those transactions, and takes 10 hours for 50 or even 100 million ISK. On the other side though is no one can really afford to pay the 50 million, or more, and hour for the actual time spent doing an audit. TLDR version: Everyone wants audits, no one wants to pay the real value for them.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.06.26 15:35:00 - [96] VV - There is a great deal of abject nonsense in your posts here. You presume to know better than the individual concerned why he is moving on from the fund (even going so far as to say that he is lieing to himself when he corrected your initial incorrect conclusion!!). The flaws in your reasoning are so many as to make the time required to correct you not worth spending (I would bother if anyone else agreed with you but since these errors are so localised they are essentially inconsequential). Your misrepresentation of simple facts is also staggering. Please stop posting such crap as it simply wastes peoples' time to have to read it and puzzle over how to make sense of it, before coming to the conclusion that it is, in fact, largely senseless. On the upside, yes, the fund could also do other things. Good catch there. Well spotted. I'm sure no one else would have reached such an insightful conclusion without your prompting.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.26 17:51:00 - [97] Quote: It's not our fault that when an auditor is contacted they just tell the guy, hey I'll do it for 50 million. They should make a quote that will cover their time, within reason. Obviously most people, or the fund, won't payout 200 million for a 1 billion offering. I see you went beyond my terrible writing style and got to the juice. And you are right! And even encomiable! But... there is a problem at hand: demand for auditing vs offer. It's JUST that. Auditing has a base price, offerings have a ceiling price for paying audits. Auditing is long to learn, puts you on the fence every time you post and audit AND when you post for anything else (as people will be quick replying how you being an auditor <insert here freedom-cutting sentence about what they think an auditor should or should not do / think / say>). It's also long to perform, in case you do a less than brutally primitive investment. Then we have an "NPC price" alike support level: auditors are supposed to know the game well enough to know how to earn their own income. I mean, if I audited 10 traders, I am kinda expected to have a clue about how to find a profitable market, a good station and so on. So, on paper, his cost of opportunity has a baseline determined by popular money making activities. In my case, even resorting to brainless missioning (I often get home after 14h+ of work + car travel, too tired to do something above amoeba IQ difficulty >_<), my bounty "ticks" are 6-8M each, that is 24M to 32M per hour without even considering the mission reward (2M+), the implants given almost every 16th mission (15-20M), the huge LP (7k per mission, it maps to 3.5M in the most horripilant inefficient toss-dumping articles up to 7M and above - I don't run oversupplied CN) and the loot + salvage, ever present if you loot & salvage on the run (2-4M up to 10M and above per mission). This means in the worst possible case I make 24 + 2 + 1 + 3.5 + 2 = 32.5M per hour and in the best 32 + 2 + 1 + 7 + 10 = 52M. I don't even mention "mission blitzing" (or trading or 0.0 plexing) because it'd yield even more. So, anything below 32M super safe, never bothered, left in peace per hour is a bad choice for me or any other 1+ year old player. Therefore that would be my demand. Now, on the other side, let's see the offer: for the investee and the investors: - Auditing is seen as commodity, a sort of "accounting employee", "just copy pasting numbers down", "just looking at the API and reporting the values". - It's also seen as a bother... as a sort of "we wish it was not needed at all". Moreover, dealing with people like me or Shar can be a shocking experience (!) which only adds to the uncomfortable feeling of having the "tax police at home" checking your drawers. What can a 500M-4B investee realistically afford anyway? IIRC I have yet to see a single investee with only 1 account. Even minor "actors" have a story of character sales, ship losses. Even the most minor investee has a performance to check (and the number of API entries is the same as the 100B turnover trader) and usually the smallest they are the more intricate their alts: one is in a noob corporation with privileges but just i.e. 1/3 of the stuff is his so you have to manually fiddle with the balances and so on... Then there's the fact that I'd not accept delivering an audit without an interview with the guy, it tells more than any number will do. Result? 3-4 hours are really a minimum plausible audit duration, some took me 20+ hours including the investee explaining and describing why or what stuff happened for the full 20 hours. Is the model practicable at all? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.26 17:52:00 - [98] Is a 500M audit meant to be done with lower standards leading to the hilarious consequence of making it riskier than a 20B bond? The guy losing 250M on a 500M bond is exactly losing 250M like if he participated with said sum on the 20B bond. Now, how do you subsidize that? How does having a fund help with having a 500M bond taking maybe 3-4 hours and thus a 100-150M fee? In this case is working at a severe loss "just to get the bond running at all costs". Is this a business savy thing to do? We are meant to do business here, not to lose (generous) investors hundreds of millions so that someone new investee feels RP tychoon regardless of the costs imposed on others. The "artificial, unreal setting" of all of this matter is what boggles me. It's just not healthy. Quote: (I would bother if anyone else agreed with you but since these errors are so localised they are essentially inconsequential). Thought established people would "get" the obvious provocations tossed to try and liven up the current obitory peaceful state of MD. (Besides Breaker and Ji Sama who seem brilliant at taking the ball ,as usual), I clearly overestimated them tbh. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dagny Bronstein	Posted - 2010.06.26 18:12:00 - [99] Edited by: Dagny Bronstein on 26/06/2010 18:12:38 Neither investors nor business managers seem to be willing to pay a reasonable price for audits. A few MD regulars, however, have a strong interest in seeing as many offerings as possibles getting audited before launch and they are willing to pay for this. They might not have an interest in each individual offering but they have an interest in the atmosphere of MD as a whole and in order to make this part of the (meta-)game more enjoyable to them they decide to subsidize audits. The investors & the business manager are glad because they don't have to pay the full price of the audit. The auditor is glad because he can charge more than he would without the subsidies. MD regulars are glad because there are less scams cluttering up their beloved forums. VV shows up and wants to spoil the fun.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.26 21:45:00 - [100] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 26/06/2010 21:47:38 Quote: edit: what really annoys me about your posts is that you describe some (perceived) problem (fees are still too low and you don't want to feel like living off welfare) but you don't even try to come up with a solution The pars construens comes after the pars destruens. Quote: If the elders of MD were to say... The elders of MD were self promoted "MD elites". There's a new gen of them slowly forming up though, neither the first nor the second ever impressed me a lot. Quote: you would again complain about other auditors not charging high enough rates, about investors not demanding audits at any cost (i.e. about small offerings getting not audited at all), about less qualified people entering the scene providing audits at cheap rates so investors can feel comfortable while still making a reasonable profit, ... I'd just remind them that they get what they are paying for. If they want to waste much money in a scam, in order to save some millions upfront it's not my business nor care. The fact I often type like a dork does not relate with how I really feel about it. You could see an apparent rage post while in reality I barely care, this is the price of my ignorance about good English. Quote: but full-scale audits the way you like them so much would only be an option for the big offerings (and those don't tend to get audited, anyways). Big offerings can be a PITA, they yield more income though. The fact people out there are lemmings who always fall for "REP" savy investees, is not a new factor and it's indeed a great failure both of MD and of us auditors who don't seem to find a relevance beyond small investments. It has to be said that being on the "wrong side" of the deal (that is being the scary "police" that also takes the investee hard earned cash) makes for a vastly less appealing role. When one of us speaks, immediately the "well, he got an agenda" comes up, including in this thread. Quote: So what is your constructive proposal for change? How would the free market achieve your desired results? I posted one (for medium investments) in a previous post. For the rest the free market decides, not my "desired results". My only desired result is that free market remains free, because given the abysmally small size of this whole niche, it's extremely easy to crash or inflate the related market. Exactly like it's easy to manipulate a very low volume item. Quote: edit2: one of the premises contained in your posts was that the audit fund is pretty irrelevant to begin with (the stuff about the thread almost getting locked, etc.) - that doesn't fit well with the fund having such a distortive effect on MD that this discussion would be warranted. As per the above, the effect can be distortive because all it takes is 2-3 individuals teaming up to drive this niche to the sky or to the ground. Imho, if this is to die, let it die. Don't make zombies. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.27 01:08:00 - [101] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Ok, time to post some long piece of garbage of mine. That was excellent, and totally true. You should have stopped there. Quote: You could see an apparent rage post while in reality I barely care, this is the price of my ignorance about good English. That was garbage. You're perfectly capable of stringing short and lucid sentences together. You simply prefer outpourings of verbal diarrhoea. The fund serves a useful purpose by assisting first-time offerors to pay for audit fees. It's really that simple. Your multiple rants, on the other hand, served no useful purpose.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.06.29 10:27:00 - [102] It is still possible to nominate people. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2010.07.01 17:58:00 - [103] Just like Mme pinkerton i will not accept the offer unfortunatly. I have the same reasoning as he/she has.I do not want a seat in any board of directors.I have been offered such a position 3 times over the last year and have declined all of them for the same reason so do not think it has anything to do with where that position comes free but the position itself is what i object to. Same goes for holding collateral , i have done it once to help out but it was an exception wich will not happen again. There are enough people on MD who will be glad with such a position and who can have general trust so i am sure the spot get's filled.I am an investor , that is my spot on MD but i thank you for the offer and the trust placed with it and hope you understand my reasoning.
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.07.02 04:52:00 - [104] Taram Caldar has generously offered to spare some of his time to help us out with the Fund. I'm very happy he accepted his nomination as he has shown a keen and unique judgment in evaluating offers. He is an excellent addition to the board in terms of both quality and diversity. I would also like to thank Estel for his equally sound and diverse opinion, especially during the delicate formative months. Once again I apologize for the weak presentation, but I just spent my entire Canada Day reinforcing south western Pure Blind, so my brain is mush.
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.07.02 04:58:00 - [105] July Activity Tracker Surplus Interest disbursed to donors pro rata - July 1st Taram Caldar elected to a Director's seat - July 1st
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.07.02 05:11:00 - [106] Originally by: SetrakDark I'm very happy [Taram Caldar] accepted his nomination as he has shown a keen and unique judgement in evaluating offers. This. Quote: I would also like to thank Estel for his equally sound and diverse opinion, especially during the delicate formative months. This too.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.07.02 06:45:00 - [107] I'll be sending this month's 500m later today. Can you update me on who I am sending withdrawn isk to and how much? I've liquidated 2.5b in readyness.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.07.02 12:32:00 - [108] In case of subsidy denial, is it possible to browse / inquire somewhere to learn why? Or what are the rules set used to decide yes or no? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.07.02 12:37:00 - [109] 500m sent to MD Financial Services.
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.07.02 15:45:00 - [110] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha In case of subsidy denial, is it possible to browse / inquire somewhere to learn why? Or what are the rules set used to decide yes or no? You are welcome to question any of the Fund's decisions. In all structural matters the Chairman is obliged to, at the very least, outline the dominant reasoning and the vote tally, if it came to that. He may also elaborate on the argument in-depth, and other directors can always add their personal reasoning. In the case of actual subsidy and auditor decisions, we reserve the right to keep our vote and reasoning a secret. This arrangement is designed to allow directors complete freedom, autonomy, and comfort of judgment. However, people are welcome to inquire, publicly or privately, and all directors are welcome to discuss their own decision to whatever depth they choose. I personally am open to discussing my reasoning, but reserve the right to not do so. There are no set rules for personal decision-making. The Fund is designed to operate as five individuals, which is why representative diversity is so important.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.07.02 15:59:00 - [111] Personally, I'm willing to make my vote public whenever asked, as long as doing so would not automatically make clear what someone else's vote was against their will.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.07.02 17:33:00 - [112] Thanks Setrak and Varo, it was nice to be involved in setting this up Congrats Taram, and good luck Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.07.02 23:47:00 - [113] Thanks guys. Glad to be aboard. Market Alerts Mailing List
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.07.09 14:27:00 - [114] Welcome abourd mate, glad you decided to tag along :)
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.02 06:51:00 - [115] 400m sent to MD Financial Services.
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.02 12:22:00 - [116] August Activity Tracker 400m disbursed from Executor to Chairman - August 2nd Surplus interest disbursed to donors pro rata - August 2nd
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.02 13:59:00 - [117] Edited by: Breaker77 on 02/08/2010 13:59:20 Originally by: SetrakDark August Activity Tracker 400m disbursed from Executor to Chairman - August 2nd Why did we lose 100 mil interest? The last 3 months was 500 million? I don't recall receiving a vote on the terms of out investment with him?
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.02 14:34:00 - [118] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: SetrakDark August Activity Tracker 400m disbursed from Executor to Chairman - August 2nd Why did we lose 100 mil interest? The last 3 months was 500 million? I don't recall receiving a vote on the terms of out investment with him? 2.5b of investment was withdrawn reducing the principle from 12.5b to 10b and the interest from 500m to 400m per month.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.02 14:36:00 - [119] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: SetrakDark August Activity Tracker 400m disbursed from Executor to Chairman - August 2nd Why did we lose 100 mil interest? The last 3 months was 500 million? I don't recall receiving a vote on the terms of out investment with him? 2.5b of investment was withdrawn reducing the principle from 12.5b to 10b and the interest from 500m to 400m per month. confirming this :)
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.02 14:37:00 - [120] Edited by: Breaker77 on 02/08/2010 14:37:30 Originally by: Bad Bobby 2.5b of investment was withdrawn reducing the principle from 12.5b to 10b and the interest from 500m to 400m per month. Thanks. I'll have to yell at Setrak for not letting us know edit: nevermind, I just now found it
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.22 08:09:00 - [121] Hey kids! Can we look into finding someone else to take over the isk fountain duty?
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.22 14:18:00 - [122] Let me get with the others, actually this just might work out perfectly.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.22 14:39:00 - [123] Yea I don't see a problem with this Bobby! This would also mean I get to use my vote this month. /me runs of to dust his BOD vote off!
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.22 15:17:00 - [124] Originally by: Ji Sama /me runs of to dust his BOD vote off! :P We're talking atm. Will not be a problem.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.08.22 15:43:00 - [125] Thanks for carrying the fund this far! As the others have said, wheels are in motion. If you want to check in on the fund board any advice you might want to offer would be gratefully received.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.22 16:42:00 - [126] Bobby, whatever works best for you. We can do it soon or in a couple of months. Again, thanks for your help and support in getting this started and helping with it.
Titans 4U Titans For You	Posted - 2010.08.22 17:03:00 - [127] The 10b is sitting in my wallet now, so I'm happy to pass it on whenever you are ready. Titan BPCs courtesy of Titans For You
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.27 20:06:00 - [128] 400m sent to MD Financial Services and all investment has now been returned.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.27 21:54:00 - [129] Ok, it's been a busy week getting the details of this done, but it's done and here is where the fund stands. I am taking over as chairman as Setrak is stepping down from that position. Bobby has sent the 10 billion plus this months interest back to the fund. 9 Billion in Cosmo bonds have been purchased to replace Bobby. The funds financials stand at: 9 Billion in Cosmo bonds 2,421,444,998 wallet balance I will be distributing this months interest payments once I get a spreadsheet together containing the donors and the amounts paid back so far in a day or two.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.27 22:15:00 - [130] Edited by: Breaker77 on 27/08/2010 22:15:33 I would also like to thank Bobby again for helping get this off the ground. Here is a link to the google doc showing donors, amount, and amount repaid so far. Anonymous donors have remained so in this document. edit: Heres the link since I'm a failure https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArPaIcdrXumydHFScTlKajNqNklCak1uZjlLbG55R3c&hl=en&authkey=CLqivI4J
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.02 16:06:00 - [131] Surplus interest has been distributed. The updated spreadsheet can be viewed here https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArPaIcdrXumydHFScTlKajNqNklCak1uZjlLbG55R3c&hl=en&authkey=CLqivI4J The funds assets still consist of 9 billion in Cosmobonds 2,021,444,998 ISK in wallet The reason for the extra large refund this month was that the fund received interest from Bobby as well as the Cosmobonds.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.04 07:10:00 - [132] Originally by: Bad Bobby 400m sent to MD Financial Services and all investment has now been returned. Nice gesture. Is there any reason you chose to save the fund from collapse?
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 08:50:00 - [133] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Bad Bobby 400m sent to MD Financial Services and all investment has now been returned. Nice gesture. Is there any reason you chose to save the fund from collapse? Simply put, I draw the line at scamming a charitable organisation. I do want to see the EVE financial markets develop into something more mature. That said, I do believe it is important that security remain a player generated product rather than something 100% controlled by game mechanics and policies. I want EVE to grow but I do not want to see it dumbed down by game mechanics or official policies that give 100% security at the cost of the sandbox, the risk and the fun that comes from it all. As a PvPer, a pirate and a scammer my entire playstyle depends upon risk for my entertainment.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.09.04 09:05:00 - [134] On the contrary - we already have the tools to do certain things securely, but it would appear that in many cases it is too onerous for people to bother to apply them effectively. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.04 09:31:00 - [135] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro On the contrary - we already have the tools to do certain things securely, but it would appear that in many cases it is too onerous for people to bother to apply them effectively. Every time Kazuo speaks, my respect for him grows. And it's not easy, for he is one of the 2.5 people I trust. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
flakeys DRAMA Inc Blood Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.04 10:10:00 - [136] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro On the contrary - we already have the tools to do certain things securely, but it would appear that in many cases it is too onerous for people to bother to apply them effectively. Every time Kazuo speaks, my respect for him grows. And it's not easy, for he is one of the 2.5 people I trust. I only count for a 0.5 these days? Man ..
Keyser Kahn Stellar-Parallax Corp	Posted - 2010.09.07 19:36:00 - [137] Per the OP I would like to give my months notice of my intention to request the return of my donation from this venture. As a point of clarification following this post: Originally by: Breaker77 Surplus interest has been distributed. The updated spreadsheet can be viewed here https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArPaIcdrXumydHFScTlKajNqNklCak1uZjlLbG55R3c&hl=en&authkey=CLqivI4J The funds assets still consist of 9 billion in Cosmobonds 2,021,444,998 ISK in wallet The reason for the extra large refund this month was that the fund received interest from Bobby as well as the Cosmobonds. I was under the impression that the surplus amounts paid out to Donors represented an unexpected interest payment rather than a reduction in the amount donated (not especially concerned just my usual comprehension failure ). Equally due no doubt to that cursed reading comprehension problem of mine I can't see much activity with this fund other than its governance (quickly scanning back last audit activity I can see is May). Oh and for what its worth - thanks BB.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.08 05:55:00 - [138] Roger that Keyser. Thank you for your time and donation. We will have the ISK ready for you ASAP.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.08 15:25:00 - [139] Edited by: Breaker77 on 08/09/2010 15:25:30 Originally by: Ji Sama Roger that Keyser. Thank you for your time and donation. We will have the ISK ready for you ASAP. Confirming that Ji sama is going to magically make the MD fund's wallet bigger so we can cover the remaining ISK I'll get the ISK we have to you after work and then work on selling some Cosmobonds to get the rest. edit: Unless someone, or someones, is willing to donate around 1 billion into the fund.
Magnu Stormhawk Stormhawk Enterprises	Posted - 2010.09.08 19:20:00 - [140] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Bad Bobby 400m sent to MD Financial Services and all investment has now been returned. Nice gesture. Is there any reason you chose to save the fund from collapse? Simply put, I draw the line at scamming a charitable organisation. I do want to see the EVE financial markets develop into something more mature. That said, I do believe it is important that security remain a player generated product rather than something 100% controlled by game mechanics and policies. I want EVE to grow but I do not want to see it dumbed down by game mechanics or official policies that give 100% security at the cost of the sandbox, the risk and the fun that comes from it all. As a PvPer, a pirate and a scammer my entire playstyle depends upon risk for my entertainment. What pleasant sentiment. Any chance of a donation to the Audit Fund then?
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.08 20:09:00 - [141] Originally by: Breaker77 Edited by: Breaker77 on 08/09/2010 15:25:30 Originally by: Ji Sama Roger that Keyser. Thank you for your time and donation. We will have the ISK ready for you ASAP. Confirming that Ji sama is going to magically make the MD fund's wallet bigger so we can cover the remaining ISK I'll get the ISK we have to you after work and then work on selling some Cosmobonds to get the rest. edit: Unless someone, or someones, is willing to donate around 1 billion into the fund. I can cover the 1B!
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.08 21:16:00 - [142] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Breaker77 Confirming that Ji sama is going to magically make the MD fund's wallet bigger so we can cover the remaining ISK I can cover the 1B! HA! I was right
Aicul Caldari Blueprint Haus Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.09.08 22:01:00 - [143] Hi, I found an auditor and would like you to subsidize the audit cost. Here is my fund raising thread. Next step? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1376975
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.08 23:37:00 - [144] Edited by: Breaker77 on 08/09/2010 23:38:34 2 billion transfer to Keyser Kahn. Remaining 728,742,500 ISK will be sent when Ji Sama sends it to the fund. Spreadsheet has been updated, and will reflect Ji's donation and full payout to Keyser once funds have been sent. edit: The anonymous donor informed be that he had already been refunded his donation. As a result he sent his 15 mil back to the fund.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.09 00:36:00 - [145] Originally by: Bad Bobby As a scammer my entire playstyle depends upon risk for my entertainment. As a thief, your playstyle depends upon zero risk, or else you wouldn't do it. And you know it, so kindly cut the crap. Or do you believe your own bull now?
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.09 05:08:00 - [146] ISK sent!
Keyser Kahn Stellar-Parallax Corp	Posted - 2010.09.09 14:31:00 - [147] Confirming receipt of 2 bill - thank you. o/
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.10 18:41:00 - [148] Remaining Balance of 728,742,500 ISK transferred to Keyser Kahn. Spreadsheet has been updated to show Ji Sama's Donation and this payout. The funds assets are as follows: 9 Billion ISK in Cosmobonds 308,352,498 ISK in wallet

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