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Xiona Vherokior	Posted - 2010.03.07 17:51:00 - [1] Edited by: Xiona Vherokior on 07/03/2010 17:58:45 Edited by: Xiona Vherokior on 07/03/2010 17:58:13 Edited by: Xiona Vherokior on 07/03/2010 17:57:21 Hi, I'm an experienced solo-PVP and i'm not the worst one. Yes, solo PVP ;) I fly t1 ships and they can keep up with every t2 ship available. Because of my 0.0 experience and the lots of people I know i have an idea how to change EVE-PVP to make it more interesting and more difficult. I of course know there will never made a change like this, since every update brings a push for fleets and therefore a nerf for the smaller group PVP (for example the t3 cruiser, maybe designed for solo PVP, but of course much to expensive to lose it to a fleet...so you only fly it in fleet...T3 Cruiser fleets hurray). The Problem: Outnumbering. Every skilled PVPr knows, that this is a damn problem. The Solution: I would suggest: Add a stacking penalty to the fights (like for example the Ballistic Control Module does for its boni). What means: The first ship to agress the enemy gets 100% on everything it does (damage, web, ECM, neut, achiving remote repp...). The second ship maybe 75% and so on. The 4th ship only would make about 5% of it's normal DPS (or web...). This would lead to: - Fleet combats would be more difficult. No primary is called and the called ship pops insta. - If a group meets a smaller group, they have to think about how they agress the target. So for a solo target you would have a maximum of 4 agressing ships. Take the tackler first? Then DPS would be decreased. Take the DPS first? Then the enemy may run. This needs tactics and skill...both is mostly not existent nowadays. The main idea is: Like a battleship does not kill a frigatte that easy, a fleet should not kill a solo player that easy. A good idea from a friend was to make a fleet a damn high signature wich is shown on the map or through a special ship scanner working over several systems around (ALL SHIPS NEED THIS SCANNER THEN!) Of course you see a fleet from far away and a lonely ship not. So what do you think? Outnumbering is ok? Or would you love a more difficult PVP? As fleets would be not that imba, there would be more small group PVP and more new players in PVP.
Lork Niffle Gallente External Hard Drive	Posted - 2010.03.07 17:53:00 - [2] Wait... what? ------------------------------------- The system issues man.
Dianeces Buttered On The Wrong Side	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:02:00 - [3] Congratulations, your idea is quite possibly the worst I have ever seen. Were we to implement your ideas, it would become nearly impossible to do any of the things which fleets are required for: shooting POSes, killing supercaps, taking sov, etc. My suggestion to you is to quit whinging and HTFU.
masternerdguy Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:06:00 - [4] tacklers dont typically do much dmg.....so what happens is this.... crow - 100% of its dps stiletto - 50% dps rifter - 33% dps Drake - 7.5% dps Ferox - 2.5% dps Dominix - 1.5% dps Raven - 0.5% dps so the slower lockers are hurt the most......this is a true idiot plan.
Ringo Jeicha Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:08:00 - [5] We already have something like this. In real life, when there is a lot of mass at a single spot, it slows time. Think of black holes. Eve has something like that too, its called lag. --- Braaaiiinnnsssssssssss
Tizian Enel Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:09:00 - [6] Terrible idea. You would have to change absolutely everything in the game just for this. I'll list a few to consider: station docking games, high class wormholes, level 5 missions, sov warfare. Titans would become pretty handy for killing stuff though... as long as nobody else shot at their target first. People complain about numbers because of a heroic view of themselves and how their great solo/small gang skills should be able to defeat (or at least not be defeated by) large gangs. This solution would be utterly ridiculous and make no sense from any logical point of view.
Torpir Lee Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:10:00 - [7] It is my experience that the better solo players know how to take on larger gangs. Some solo players are smart enough to get great results against even huge fleets. If the blob is big and dumb enough, you can get really easy kills just by knowing where and when to be. For example, you see a fleet of a 100 sniper hacs on free travel mode? grab a small sling bubble and your battleship and go from behind to kill stragglers with ease. Know when to attack and when to get out and you'll have great successes. Some ships are geared for taking on significantly larger numbers. Those ships tend to be fast ships capable of dishing out a large amount of hurt in a small enough time to get out of harm's way. Ships like stealth bombers, Vagabonds, Dramiels, Cynabals, Machariels. Sometimes T1 ships just don't cut it. sorry.
Xiona Vherokior	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:10:00 - [8] Originally by: Dianeces Were we to implement your ideas, it would become nearly impossible to do any of the things which fleets are required for: shooting POSes, killing supercaps, taking sov, etc. This PVP is about 5% of Eve-PVP. I'm not expert in this, but let's say you need 100 guys to pop a pos. And it takes about 1h. Fine. Now why not change it that way you need only 5 guys for 1h. Like today, noone would agress a pos with 5 guys, because of maybe incomming support. On the other hand: It's absolutly no fun to stand at the pos and shoot one hour on a not moving tower. I know noone who would say this is fun ;) But i know a lot of people saying this sucks.
The Ratfink	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:15:00 - [9] So with this you could potentially setup an invincible spider tank between 8 ships, without even using remote armor/ shield repairers! Good plan batman you dribbling re-tard
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:17:00 - [10] New FOTM would be Ibis tanking - just get 5 friendly Ibis to shoot at you.
Tizian Enel Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Xiona Vherokior Originally by: Dianeces Were we to implement your ideas, it would become nearly impossible to do any of the things which fleets are required for: shooting POSes, killing supercaps, taking sov, etc. This PVP is about 5% of Eve-PVP. I'm not expert in this, but let's say you need 100 guys to pop a pos. And it takes about 1h. Fine. Now why not change it that way you need only 5 guys for 1h. Like today, noone would agress a pos with 5 guys, because of maybe incomming support. On the other hand: It's absolutly no fun to stand at the pos and shoot one hour on a not moving tower. I know noone who would say this is fun ;) But i know a lot of people saying this sucks. So instead of blob wars you'd have 6 people assault every enemy system simultaneously. 1 hauler for SBUs, 5 people to pew stuff. And I suspect here the corporations/alliances with more people would still win, just by being able to cover more area/timezones. If people instead kept to assaulting only a system or two at a time, it would leave hundreds of people feeling quite worthless indeed.
Sinil	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Sinil on 07/03/2010 18:21:42 Originally by: Torpir Lee It is my experience that the better solo players know how to take on larger gangs. Some solo players are smart enough to get great results against even huge fleets. If the blob is big and dumb enough, you can get really easy kills just by knowing where and when to be. For example, you see a fleet of a 100 sniper hacs on free travel mode? grab a small sling bubble and your battleship and go from behind to kill stragglers with ease. Know when to attack and when to get out and you'll have great successes. I know that. I had this success in former days. But since t3 ships and faction cruisers got that popular of course noone would risk a ship in a fight. T2 is a similiar problem. If you fly in a fleet (maybe 10 guys) and you loose your dictor in a stupid fight...then this is a problem. Next time you take 20 guys, then you won't lose the dictor. [Xiona]
masternerdguy Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Jackie Fisher New FOTM would be Ibis tanking - just get 5 friendly Ibis to shoot at you. pretty much... I am calling troll on this guy. 4/10 because you got 9 posts without being called a troll....you must have trained covert trolling 4 at least.
Xiona Vherokior	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:26:00 - [14] Edited by: Xiona Vherokior on 07/03/2010 18:30:13 Originally by: masternerdguy I am calling troll on this guy. Looks like this is this is the wrong game for me :D I absoulty wonder why noone has a problem with dumb outnumbering...but if I'm the only one, then it's ok, and it should not changed only for me of course ;) Maybe the problem is, that the PVPrs not sit in this forum but making PVP instead ;) What would you say to the other idea? It wouldn't need that much change of game mechanics. Using a ship scanner (or whatever) to see, if a fleet is in the systems around?
Aerilis Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.07 18:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Xiona Vherokior Edited by: Xiona Vherokior on 07/03/2010 18:30:13 Originally by: masternerdguy I am calling troll on this guy. Looks like this is this is the wrong game for me :D I absoulty wonder why noone has a problem with dumb outnumbering...but if I'm the only one, then it's ok, and it should not changed only for me of course ;) Maybe the problem is, that the PVPrs not sit in this forum but making PVP instead ;) What would you say to the other idea? It wouldn't need that much change of game mechanics. Using a ship scanner (or whatever) to see, if a fleet is in the systems around? On the offchance you're not a troll, your ideas do make sense in they would fix the immediate problem of blobbing. But you didn't think far enough ahead. With such a massive game mechanic change, there are going to be negative effects. Like the aforementioned Ibis tanking. And besides it makes absolutely no intuitive sense.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.07 19:09:00 - [16] Originally by: Xiona Vherokior I absoulty wonder why noone has a problem with dumb outnumbering...but if I'm the only one, then it's ok, and it should not changed only for me of course ;) Maybe the problem is, that the PVPrs not sit in this forum but making PVP instead ;) I absolutely wonder why everyone started saying 'noone' about a year ago. As for your point, there are two camps on the outnumbering problem. One are the people who are happy being faceless ship #532, and the others are "OMG HISEC CAREBEAR GO DIE YOU WORTHLESS HUMAN BEING". Discussions have seldom gone past this point. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2010.03.07 19:21:00 - [17] Edited by: Razin on 07/03/2010 19:22:42 This isn't really a new idea. Blob control methods were discussed extensively a few years ago, when something like this (as well as other ideas) was proposed. My idea back then was to geometrically decrease the target's signature radius with the amount of damage dealt to it. The formula would account for the starting sig radius and vary the threshold of DPS fall-off depending on the ship size and the attacking ships' sensor performance. There are, off course, problems with this and other ideas like that that range from ways to exploit the mechanic (that were mentioned in some posts in this thread) to potential detrimental effects on server performance. ...
motomysz Militek Industries Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.03.07 19:47:00 - [18] -1: bringing up an idea that's been discussed 1000x -1: role-playing name -1: using the words 'boni' (the word is bonuses, don't be pretentious) and imba.
Deus Ex'Machina The-Machine	Posted - 2010.03.07 19:49:00 - [19] Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 07/03/2010 19:55:31 Originally by: masternerdguy tacklers dont typically do much dmg.....so what happens is this.... crow - 100% of its dps stiletto - 50% dps rifter - 33% dps Drake - 7.5% dps Ferox - 2.5% dps Dominix - 1.5% dps Raven - 0.5% dps so the slower lockers are hurt the most......this is a true idiot plan. the op called for a stacking penalty, you're the idiot for giving the greatest penalty to the highest dps ships ie , if 5 ibises would shoot at each other with their puny 3-4 dmg, when a ship with 10 times more damage would join the fight it would get no penalty for having the highest dps ... ie stacking rules : the strongest gets no penalty same would apply with spider tanking for the dolt who suggested it , ie the ship being remote repped would get diminishing returns from the 20 guys repping him , so most would rep for 0 this WOULD work if the devs would not be tunnel visioning toward blobs eg. if a pos needs 100 people to be blown in an hour then make it so that 5 .. or 5000 can take it down in 3 hours at best, so blobs would disperse, thing is ... this gives a chance to defenders as well - Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER! Sharkbait: Dude.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.03.07 19:51:00 - [20] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 07/03/2010 19:52:18 Ship to ship combat has always been about concentrating firepower effectively. We don't need mechanics that break immersion and are contrary to common sense and sound tactics, just to further protect people that don't work well with others. If you like being the one ship that stands against many, stick to PVE. If you want to do that in PVP you'll have to develop some actual skills. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.03.07 19:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Xiona Vherokior Edited by: Xiona Vherokior on 07/03/2010 18:30:48 Edited by: Xiona Vherokior on 07/03/2010 17:58:45 Edited by: Xiona Vherokior on 07/03/2010 17:58:13 Edited by: Xiona Vherokior on 07/03/2010 17:57:21 Hi, I'm an experienced solo-PVP and i'm not the worst one. Yes, solo PVP ;) I fly t1 ships and they can keep up with every t2 ship available. Because of my 0.0 experience and the lots of people I know i have an idea how to change EVE-PVP to make it more interesting and more difficult. I of course know there will never made a change like this, since every update brings a push for fleets and therefore a nerf for the smaller group PVP (for example the t3 cruiser, maybe designed for solo PVP, but of course much to expensive to lose it to a fleet...so you only fly it in fleet...T3 Cruiser fleets hurray). The Problem: Outnumbering. Every skilled PVPr knows, that this is a damn problem. The Solution: I would suggest: Add a stacking penalty to the fights (like for example the Ballistic Control Module does for its boni). What means: The first ship to agress the enemy gets 100% on everything it does (damage, web, ECM, neut, achiving remote repp...). The second ship maybe 75% and so on. The 4th ship only would make about 5% of it's normal DPS (or web...). This would lead to: - Fleet combats would be more difficult. No primary is called and the called ship pops insta. - If a group meets a smaller group, they have to think about how they agress the target. So for a solo target you would have a maximum of 4 agressing ships. Take the tackler first? Then DPS would be decreased. Take the DPS first? Then the enemy may run. This needs tactics and skill...both is mostly not existent nowadays. The main idea is: Like a battleship does not kill a frigatte that easy, a fleet should not kill a solo player that easy. A good idea from a friend was to make a fleet a damn high signature wich is shown on the map or through a special ship scanner working over several systems around (ALL SHIPS NEED THIS SCANNER THEN!) Of course you see a fleet from far away and a lonely ship not. So what do you think? Outnumbering is ok? Or would you love a more difficult PVP? As fleets would be not that imba, there would be more small group PVP and more new players in PVP. Try and think of some idea that can less blatantly easily exploited.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Punic Corp.	Posted - 2010.03.07 19:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 07/03/2010 19:55:31 Originally by: masternerdguy tacklers dont typically do much dmg.....so what happens is this.... crow - 100% of its dps stiletto - 50% dps rifter - 33% dps Drake - 7.5% dps Ferox - 2.5% dps Dominix - 1.5% dps Raven - 0.5% dps so the slower lockers are hurt the most......this is a true idiot plan. the op called for a stacking penalty, you're the idiot for giving the greatest penalty to the highest dps ships The highest DPS ships would typically be the slowest ships to lock and start shooting. The way the OP formulated his idea, the penalties would be given in the order that ships start shooting at the target. ----- 'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.'
Deus Ex'Machina The-Machine	Posted - 2010.03.07 20:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 07/03/2010 19:55:31 Originally by: masternerdguy tacklers dont typically do much dmg.....so what happens is this.... crow - 100% of its dps stiletto - 50% dps rifter - 33% dps Drake - 7.5% dps Ferox - 2.5% dps Dominix - 1.5% dps Raven - 0.5% dps so the slower lockers are hurt the most......this is a true idiot plan. the op called for a stacking penalty, you're the idiot for giving the greatest penalty to the highest dps ships The highest DPS ships would typically be the slowest ships to lock and start shooting. The way the OP formulated his idea, the penalties would be given in the order that ships start shooting at the target. op had a good idea , but lacked the syntax to formulate a decent rule but, by using a regular stacking penalty rule, it would work perfectly - Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER! Sharkbait: Dude.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Punic Corp.	Posted - 2010.03.07 20:46:00 - [24] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 07/03/2010 20:47:05 Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina op had a good idea , but lacked the syntax to formulate a decent rule but, by using a regular stacking penalty rule, it would work perfectly Determining DPS of a particular ship against a particular target in combat is not that easy and could change from second to second. First of all, damage depends on sig radius and relative speed and movement, and those can change all the time. Second, damage in-game is done in bursts. DPS, is just something we players calculate. It doesn't actually exist in the game engine. You could make it so that the penalty is given depending on the size of each hit in each second. But, that just means that people will bring more ships with slow firing high volley damage type weapons and stagger their weapons when they turn them on so there is a second between each gun/launcher firing. Even if you could implement the OP's idea in a sensible way, or find some other way to succesfully nerf focused fire, it would actually also be a big nerf to smaller ships. In my opinion, that's a bad thing. You would only be able to use light ships to fight other light ships, which would just mean that almost no one would use them in the first place. ----- 'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.'
Darth Iamnothappy	Posted - 2010.03.07 20:46:00 - [25] Don't break immersion? HAHAHAHA Okay lets make the real empires roflstomp every little alliance/corp that is red to them flat. The empires need their lulz too. Also make the empires actually expand into 0.0 space for more territory to keep the immersion. Your breaking my immersion ccp. You bastards! Game play is what it is while it will change in some ways the immersion argument is pathetically funny. Also it is humerous how players do not like it when their style of play might take a turn for the worse though it is okay long as they get their lulz at the expense of others.
Ecco Storm	Posted - 2010.03.07 20:49:00 - [26] Idiotic idea. If you want to find solo fights then go find them, they're out there. If you don't have friends to fly with to counter the blob then it's a personal problem.
Deus Ex'Machina The-Machine	Posted - 2010.03.07 20:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Reem Fairchild You could make it so that the penalty is given depending on the size of each hit in each second. But, that just means that people will bring more ships with slow firing high volley damage type weapons and stagger their weapons when they turn them on so there is a second between each gun/launcher firing. What you are worried about, it seems, is that such a rule could potentially be exploited Of course it could, if it'd be implemented half assed You're worried that 100 people focus firing may still break such a rule, guess what game detects 1-2-5-100 hits being made, game gives stacking penalty arbitrarily, more shots are made, game adjusts the stacking penalty to match objective dps observed etc so what if new code has to be written to enable dps tracking ? you wouldn't want dear ccp to run out of things to do ? - Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER! Sharkbait: Dude.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.03.07 21:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Xiona Vherokior I absoulty wonder why noone has a problem with dumb outnumbering... Maybe they are smart enough to see it coming?
Khamal Jolstien Caldari THORN Syndicate Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.03.07 21:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Darth Iamnothappy Don't break immersion? HAHAHAHA Okay lets make the real empires roflstomp every little alliance/corp that is red to them flat. The empires need their lulz too. Also make the empires actually expand into 0.0 space for more territory to keep the immersion. Your breaking my immersion ccp. You bastards! Game play is what it is while it will change in some ways the immersion argument is pathetically funny. Also it is humerous how players do not like it when their style of play might take a turn for the worse though it is okay long as they get their lulz at the expense of others. You're discussing realism, not immersion. They're VERY different topics. The OP does not have a good idea, nor has the experience in EVE to come up with a solid idea to solve the 'problem'.
Darth Iamnothappy	Posted - 2010.03.07 21:21:00 - [30] I just wanted those immersed to feel even more immersed. I will take my things and go now...

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