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Drake, Hurricane BPO purchase regrets.

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Marius Victor	Posted - 2010.03.08 07:43:00 - [1] I think I'll just focus on the Drake BPO, but want to throw this out there... After calculating build costs (Jita mineral prices) with a Production Efficiency 5 char on a ML 60 Drake BPO, I have found that it would cost 25,242,277 ISK to build a Drake. SO... I look on the local Jita market and see drakes selling for 26,200,000, in quantities of 15-90. Now, buying the BPO costs 342 million. I'd have to sell 342 Drakes just to break even on the BPO price Besides the fact that you can't invent on a Drake BPO, the only other option I see are selling BPCs. I have access to a POS to research the BPO, but this still seems futile. How the hell are ppl selling them for so low? And is there any hope for me and my Drake BPO? Are miners and industrialists really just this stupid that they don't care to make a profit? Is it just a case of the "I mined it, so the mins were free" mentality? Any suggestions on how to make more isk on a Drake BPO? Thanks all.
Dalden V Blue Lounge Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2010.03.08 07:54:00 - [2] Also consider the insurance value of a Drake. After paying for the insurance and blowing up a Drake, you can get 26,600,000.00 for it. Many people are building hundreds of ships for just below insurance value, then blowing them up with insurance fraud and also any salvage you get from those ships. Some other people know that insurance fraud is happening, so sell ships on the market for just below that value hoping that others will buy them up in bulk to destroy them, thus saving them the time and effort and still making a bit of profit.
Necesity Order of Paradox	Posted - 2010.03.08 07:58:00 - [3] remember those are jita prices, some regions with lots of pvp far from jita may have people paying much more for the higher tier battlecruisers since they are used alot in lowsec pvp
Mahasti	Posted - 2010.03.08 07:58:00 - [4] Edited by: Mahasti on 08/03/2010 07:58:12 Honestly, at this point, I'm leaning towards just researching the damn thing to 30ML or more and then trying to resell it. I have no intention of mining the ores to build a ton of Drakes if the best I can do is make a million isk off each one. I realize Jita prices are low, but even other markets I've checked, Drake prices are about the same. I will probably make a bunch of copies of it after I research it and try to sell those as well. It just really burns me up to see that people are so willing to not make squat in profit off of what they build. Edit... oops posted with my alt there :)
Marius Victor	Posted - 2010.03.08 08:14:00 - [5] Edited by: Marius Victor on 08/03/2010 08:14:14 Originally by: Dalden V Also consider the insurance value of a Drake. After paying for the insurance and blowing up a Drake, you can get 26,600,000.00 for it. Many people are building hundreds of ships for just below insurance value, then blowing them up with insurance fraud and also any salvage you get from those ships. Some other people know that insurance fraud is happening, so sell ships on the market for just below that value hoping that others will buy them up in bulk to destroy them, thus saving them the time and effort and still making a bit of profit. Ahh. So possibly if I hang on to the BPO for awhile, and insurance fraud gets nerfed, I may be able to profit a little more from it. How much salvage does one get from a Drake I wonder? I may just go ahead and build a bunch and just blow them up. That's so pathetic though.
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.03.08 09:13:00 - [6] I don't see how insurance fraud would reduce margins. I suspect you're real problem is you are competing against people who value their time and mined minerals very low (or free). If you try insurance fraud the most you can self destruct is about 12 per hour or about twice that with the help of Concord. Is the insurance fraud margin on a Drake x 12/24 more or less than you could generate in the same time doing something else? Could you be producing something more profitable with that manufacturing slot? Also take into account the time taken to buy/haul your mins and the process of blowing the ships up is very tedious. DonÆt expect too much extra ISK form salvaging Drakes especially if you destroy them outside a station where others will beat you to the salvage.
Lord Arbalest Amarr Zero Profits	Posted - 2010.03.08 09:31:00 - [7] Do take into account a Drake BPO is never going to make 'amazing' profits for you. What they do offer is a constant and reliable steady earner and seller. If you are really against selling in Jita look to offload or build near another hub or mission hub - drakes are one of the most used ships in EVE and are bought everywhere - you can get away with charging a slight premium on Jita prices if you sell elsewhere. Don't forget your BPO is an asset to, anything you produce with it is extra profit because of the ability to sell off your BPO, at least at a NPC value.
Cyaxares II Gallente Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.03.08 09:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Marius Victor Ahh. So possibly if I hang on to the BPO for awhile, and insurance fraud gets nerfed, I may be able to profit a little more from it. If you had read the CSM minutes, you would know that insurance fraud getting a nerf is very unlikely during the near future (aka in the summer expansion).
coeira	Posted - 2010.03.08 10:34:00 - [9] yeah insurance really can't get nerfed because its the only thing propping up the mineral market at the moment. the underlying issue is the fact of overproduction of items. which isn't an issue at all of producers undervaluing there time or goods the market gets to dictate prices and right now just about every tech 1 item is at there mineral cost. so theres to much production in that area right now.
LarcatOfRens	Posted - 2010.03.08 11:36:00 - [10] How much profit do you want to make selling drakes? Gimme a number and I'll buy all the drakes for sale below it in Jita and you can give me a cuddle cuddle afterwards.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.03.08 12:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Marius Victor After calculating build costs (Jita mineral prices) Is that mineral BUY order price or mineral SELL order price ? Quote: I'd have to sell 342 Drakes just to break even on the BPO price Oh, boo-hoo, poor you, it will be a bit under 40 days of non-stop production before you can break even, whatever will you do ? What, you wanted to break even in one afternoon ? Sheesh... _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.03.08 13:36:00 - [12] Edited by: Brock Nelson on 08/03/2010 13:36:45 Your problem is you're thinking about competing on the Jita market, why don't you move further away from Jita? Closer to null space? Or mission hubs? Closed until further notice
Io Callisto	Posted - 2010.03.08 13:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Marius Victor Any suggestions on how to make more isk on a Drake BPO? Thanks all. I refer you back to "Basics 101", get your mins cheaper elsewhere... figure it out from there.
Cecilia Syal Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.03.08 13:53:00 - [14] You might earn more making 5 Run bpc's for other builders, but you can actually earn the same making ME0/PE0 max run copy's for invention people. so not much benefit to buying researched bpo, I think the best margins on ships are cruisers/frigates for production, and moving them around in different area's around mission hubs and even to low sec. they will sell in low sec only as long as you throw up on markets the modules/ammo they might need for pvp. also where are you getting minerals/ores from? try to setup buy orders cheaply from around mission hubs and mining area's in different regions, moving in freighter to keep production going. then its a good way to turn minerals into "blocks" of isk to sell on markets for few mil more than just selling minerals to buy orders. your margins might move from 800k to 4mil or so per ship, also past me21 the savings are so small.. only really good that high if you plan to sell bpc to builders/small corps
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.03.08 14:26:00 - [15] Sell the BPO, buy another Battle-cruiser BPO that you can invent (Ferox, Prophecy, Brutix, Cyclone) rattle off 20, 1 run BPCs for invention, the rest of the time just produce the BC.. If the margins are about 750K pretty much any BC has that margin, why focus on a BPO that can only do "one" thing. Remember each of the mentioned BC BPOs can produce three ships with time and resources. The ship itself, a Field Command ship and a Fleet Command ship. Three ships for the price of one BPO, also BPC sell, there is DEMAND for those BPCs on contract for either building or inventing. Sounds like a deal all round if you ask me. Amarr for Life
Marius Victor	Posted - 2010.03.08 14:28:00 - [16] Edited by: Marius Victor on 08/03/2010 14:28:30 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Marius Victor After calculating build costs (Jita mineral prices) Is that mineral BUY order price or mineral SELL order price ? Quote: I'd have to sell 342 Drakes just to break even on the BPO price Oh, boo-hoo, poor you, it will be a bit under 40 days of non-stop production before you can break even, whatever will you do ? What, you wanted to break even in one afternoon ? Sheesh... Sheesh. Yeah there a 1000 different way to make profit in way less time than that. As far as the mins go, yes I was referring to Sell Order prices. so, yes, theoretically I could make more if I got the mins cheaper. I understand that. As far as it being "40 Days", that's a great figure and all, but If I actually mined the ore myself, I think it would take longer than 40 days. Basically the whole reason for this post was to question the whole idea of making these in the first place, when I can just plop down a station trader in various systems besides Jita and make hundreds of millions a week.
Marius Victor	Posted - 2010.03.08 14:35:00 - [17] Originally by: SencneS Sell the BPO, buy another Battle-cruiser BPO that you can invent (Ferox, Prophecy, Brutix, Cyclone) rattle off 20, 1 run BPCs for invention, the rest of the time just produce the BC.. If the margins are about 750K pretty much any BC has that margin, why focus on a BPO that can only do "one" thing. Remember each of the mentioned BC BPOs can produce three ships with time and resources. The ship itself, a Field Command ship and a Fleet Command ship. Three ships for the price of one BPO, also BPC sell, there is DEMAND for those BPCs on contract for either building or inventing. Sounds like a deal all round if you ask me. Very sound advice, and I think I am thinking on these same terms. Thank you for the re-assurance. As you can't even invent on a Drake or Hurricane BPO, I really don't see the use or need for the BPCs for them. I will probably just research the BPO and resell it at a small mark up.
HarveyBirdman Esquire	Posted - 2010.03.08 14:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Marius Victor Edited by: Marius Victor on 08/03/2010 14:28:30 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Marius Victor After calculating build costs (Jita mineral prices) Is that mineral BUY order price or mineral SELL order price ? Quote: I'd have to sell 342 Drakes just to break even on the BPO price Oh, boo-hoo, poor you, it will be a bit under 40 days of non-stop production before you can break even, whatever will you do ? What, you wanted to break even in one afternoon ? Sheesh... Sheesh. Yeah there a 1000 different way to make profit in way less time than that. As far as the mins go, yes I was referring to Sell Order prices. so, yes, theoretically I could make more if I got the mins cheaper. I understand that. As far as it being "40 Days", that's a great figure and all, but If I actually mined the ore myself, I think it would take longer than 40 days. Basically the whole reason for this post was to question the whole idea of making these in the first place, when I can just plop down a station trader in various systems besides Jita and make hundreds of millions a week. There's no reason you can't do both at the same time. As to complaining about the profitability, guess you should have done a wee bit more research before making the purchase. This isn't magic super science here, you'd have saved yourself a few hundred mil and some time if you had spent a few minutes with a calculator _before_ the BPO impulse purchase. Harvey Birdman, Attorney at MATHS!
Marius Victor	Posted - 2010.03.08 14:45:00 - [19] Originally by: HarveyBirdman Esquire Originally by: Marius Victor Edited by: Marius Victor on 08/03/2010 14:28:30 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Marius Victor After calculating build costs (Jita mineral prices) Is that mineral BUY order price or mineral SELL order price ? Quote: I'd have to sell 342 Drakes just to break even on the BPO price Oh, boo-hoo, poor you, it will be a bit under 40 days of non-stop production before you can break even, whatever will you do ? What, you wanted to break even in one afternoon ? Sheesh... Sheesh. Yeah there a 1000 different way to make profit in way less time than that. As far as the mins go, yes I was referring to Sell Order prices. so, yes, theoretically I could make more if I got the mins cheaper. I understand that. As far as it being "40 Days", that's a great figure and all, but If I actually mined the ore myself, I think it would take longer than 40 days. Basically the whole reason for this post was to question the whole idea of making these in the first place, when I can just plop down a station trader in various systems besides Jita and make hundreds of millions a week. There's no reason you can't do both at the same time. As to complaining about the profitability, guess you should have done a wee bit more research before making the purchase. This isn't magic super science here, you'd have saved yourself a few hundred mil and some time if you had spent a few minutes with a calculator _before_ the BPO impulse purchase. Harvey Birdman, Attorney at MATHS! Harsh as it is, yes, you are right. Fortunately, however, I don't think I'll have a problem reselling it at maybe .01 isk below seed value if I have to. I''m going to go ahead and research it though and take my chances with reselling it at a small mark up.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.08 14:52:00 - [20] Quote: As you can't even invent on a Drake or Hurricane BPO, I really don't see the use or need for the BPCs for them. There are. All it takes, is to know what you want to do in advance and not cluelessy PLOP down like a pidgeon poop. It's really and always the same: "I bought this freighter, now how do I make money with it" dumb dilemma all over again. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Marius Victor	Posted - 2010.03.08 15:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: As you can't even invent on a Drake or Hurricane BPO, I really don't see the use or need for the BPCs for them. There are. All it takes, is to know what you want to do in advance and not cluelessy PLOP down like a pidgeon poop. It's really and always the same: "I bought this freighter, now how do I make money with it" dumb dilemma all over again. Well, as I am already filthy rich from other endeavors, I just figured manufacturing of one of the most used ships in Eve would be a good plan and a nice diversion. Forgive me for being such a stupid pile of pigeon ****. I've seen Drake BPC's sold anywhere from 400k to 6 million on contract but wonder how fast these move as you would be kind of stupid to pay anything over 1 million for one even at ML 60 if you could buy the effing Drake in Jita for the same price. Please forgive me for being so dumb?
Kidain Gallente As Far As The eYe can see	Posted - 2010.03.08 15:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Marius Victor Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: As you can't even invent on a Drake or Hurricane BPO, I really don't see the use or need for the BPCs for them. There are. All it takes, is to know what you want to do in advance and not cluelessy PLOP down like a pidgeon poop. It's really and always the same: "I bought this freighter, now how do I make money with it" dumb dilemma all over again. Well, as I am already filthy rich from other endeavors, I just figured manufacturing of one of the most used ships in Eve would be a good plan and a nice diversion. Forgive me for being such a stupid pile of pigeon ****. I've seen Drake BPC's sold anywhere from 400k to 6 million on contract but wonder how fast these move as you would be kind of stupid to pay anything over 1 million for one even at ML 60 if you could buy the effing Drake in Jita for the same price. Please forgive me for being so dumb? I wouldn't say dumb as such but thinking that you where going to get the most popular BC BPO and make money of it makes total sense of course... but then it does make that sense to about 10,000 other players as well and you end up with far toom many Drakes at crap prices. ;) Can't win really. The weird thing is I sat down the other day and thought I would try exactly the same thing only to realise it wasn't worth it. -------------------------------------- Don't Confuse me with facts my minds already made up.
Etara Silverblade	Posted - 2010.03.08 15:40:00 - [23] You're looking at the whole equation wrong because the Drake BPO is always worth something even if it's the NPC price. So you don't have to make back all the isk you spent on the purchase. And you should have done some calculations before investing in the BPO.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.03.08 15:49:00 - [24] Originally by: Kidain I wouldn't say dumb as such but thinking that you where going to get the most popular BC BPO and make money of it makes total sense of course... Just wait for CCP to release the Mallard.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife Discord.	Posted - 2010.03.08 15:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Etara Silverblade You're looking at the whole equation wrong because the Drake BPO is always worth something even if it's the NPC price. So you don't have to make back all the isk you spent on the purchase. And you should have done some calculations before investing in the BPO. Not so. Before insurance fraud, a researched rokh BPO was worth less than NPC price, there have been large stretches of time where certain capital-related BPOs were worth less than npc, and those are just two examples right off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others (including some I occasionally trade in but haven't mentioned ). The NPC cost of a BPO is a sunk cost. The value of the BPO once bought is partially based on that cost for psychological reasons, yes, but it's also based on supply-and-demand, and when waaay too many people buy and/or research the same BPOs, that value goes below NPC, sometimes substantially despite months of research. Ironically, tier 2 battlecruiser BPOs historically hold value very well (although the hurricane and harbinger better than domi and myrm).
Lordess Trader	Posted - 2010.03.08 17:24:00 - [26] Edited by: Lordess Trader on 08/03/2010 17:25:46 lol find somewhere better to sell your ships, i know areas that drakes sell for 36-38m each Also why are u looking to pay off the BPO, a bought BPO and researched is worth the same amount, and actually more when u decide to sell it off so it doesnt loose value, so a 360m BPO is still 360m of cash in hand, just not liquid
Aeneidae Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.03.08 17:33:00 - [27] Just to echo some of the opinions here in view of researched BPO's. A researched Drake BPO ME10 PE10 is usually around 400m. This BPO will sell INSTANTLY at NPC price of 340m. To recoup your investment you'd actually have to have a 60m profit from the Drakes that you're building. Sure, the BPO is not cold cash in your wallet, but it is an asset with a minimum value of 340m. (Yes, i know you could argue about the liquidity of the item here, and i know that what people actually mean is getting those 400m back)
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.03.08 18:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Marius Victor Sheesh. Yeah there a 1000 different way to make profit in way less time than that. Then do the "something else" things instead. Manufacturing is primarily an ISK/day/slot matter, with blueprint cost a secondary factor. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Unity Love Caldari Dissonance Corp Primary.	Posted - 2010.03.08 18:29:00 - [29] OP: you know you can....you can.... sell the bpo right after a few months of use
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.03.08 18:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Marius Victor After calculating build costs (Jita mineral prices) with a Production Efficiency 5 char on a ML 60 Drake BPO, I have found that it would cost 25,242,277 ISK to build a Drake. SO... I look on the local Jita market and see drakes selling for 26,200,000, in quantities of 15-90. Now, buying the BPO costs 342 million. I'd have to sell 342 Drakes just to break even on the BPO price I didn't read the entire thread too closely but also keep in mind that you're calculating the profit YOU make off building it where you're buying the underlying minerals. So really, the entire economic action is giving profits to both you as well as miners. If you mine yourself, you will obviously be making more than that paltry number per constructed drake. Obviously if you choose not to mine then you're giving away some of the Drake's profits to those who mine for you. Just another way to consider what the real profit of the sale is in comparison to its BPO cost.

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