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mygirl2
Caldari Hell's Horsemen
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Posted - 2010.03.13 17:57:00 -
[151]
Edited by: mygirl2 on 13/03/2010 17:57:53
Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/03/2010 17:08:18 There's important information to weigh against the rabble fodder here:
Proportions of materials supplied by mining, loot drops, and drone compound reprocessing
Raw information courtesy CCP Relative market quantity is unweighted Mining is already bordering on insignificant; it's the mission runners who grab all their loot and the drone regions full of ravens that log off when someone else enters local and otherwise spend all day mining with guns that need to be dealt with to fix the problems with mineral prices and oversupply.
Redo the loot drops from the drone regions completely and reconsider their intended audience; virtually nobody but macro users want them because they don't fix your sec status, and they're contributing enormous quantities of materials that should be sourced by mining in high sec and even lowsec.
Axing the highest mineral reprocessing proportion loot from NPC loot tables will make mining the dominant profession for sourcing raw materials again. The fact that more than half of eve's material supply appears to come from mission running and loot refining is astounding.
Look at that again... Isogen, Mex, and Pyerite mostly come from Loot. Zydrine, Mega, morphite, and Trit comes from mining. Noxcium mainly comes from drones.
Ill restate my above post... Stop *****ing and play the game.
WoW has kids EvE has Cry Babies |
Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:01:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Marko Riva I like it, more people will pay ransoms then.
Unlikely. Ship loss cost will be the same. In fact, it's likely to be less if you're using player-built modules.
You have to realise that most people adopt the "I got paid insurance so you blowing up my ship was actually a GOOD thing hahhaha /cackle".
If the difference between payout and actual worth of a ship becomes more, then the willigness to pay a ransom increases, if you'd dig deeper and start to calc it then it won't change much but that would require people to put in thought and effort... They're being held at gunpoint, can't think straight and have to make a instant choice; pay or die. The simple fact that insurance payout is lower will sway them easier towards paying.
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:02:00 -
[153]
Originally by: mygirl2 Look at that again... Isogen, Mex, and Pyerite mostly come from mining. Zydrine, Mega, morphite, and Trit comes from mining. Noxcium mainly comes from mining.
This is how it should be. --------
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:03:00 -
[154]
Cool. I hope they remove insurance on capital ships too, while they're at it. Its easily the biggest and dumbest insurance mistake they ever made.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr Corpse Collection Point
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:09:00 -
[155]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Cool. I hope they remove insurance on capital ships too, while they're at it. Its easily the biggest and dumbest insurance mistake they ever made.
hey...you an insured t2 carrier will cost around 300-400m. This is very much for a ship But even when ccp makes those insurance changes live...capitals won't be affected at all. ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
Turiel Demon
Minmatar Celtic industries F A I L
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:09:00 -
[156]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Cool. I hope they remove insurance on capital ships too, while they're at it. Its easily the biggest and dumbest insurance mistake they ever made.
That wouldn't be a bad idea.
If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes Don't be greedy :P -Cap |
Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Aggressive Dissonance
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:10:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: mygirl2 Look at that again... Isogen, Mex, and Pyerite mostly come from mining. Zydrine, Mega, morphite, and Trit comes from mining. Noxcium mainly comes from mining.
This is how it should be.
Exactly my point. Mission loot should not be the bulk supplier of mid range and low end minerals, and drone's probably shouldn't be a factor for mineral loot at all. There should be, in my opinion, one primary method for gathering raw materials in bulk, and mining should be that method.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:11:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Marko Riva If the difference between payout and actual worth of a ship becomes more, then the willigness to pay a ransom increases
But that's just it: the difference won't increase, because the ship will have been cheaper as well.
And if they haven't insured the ship at all, your logic turns on its head: they'll instead be more inclined to think "meh, it's not like I paid a lot for it" and have it blow up. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Stephente
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:11:00 -
[159]
Once upon a time, people built warships to fight wars. Now, ships are built so they can be self-destructed and converted into isk. Eve has been taken over by carebears. What this game needs is a mass-scale war where tons of minerals are taken out of the game.
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mygirl2
Caldari Hell's Horsemen
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:13:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: mygirl2 Look at that again... Isogen, Mex, and Pyerite mostly come from mining. Zydrine, Mega, morphite, and Trit comes from mining. Noxcium mainly comes from mining.
This is how it should be.
Why exactly?
The drone regions are fine, people who dont want to train barge can still mine. Plus they have to haul that back to empire or build somthing to get the isk.
Loot drops are fine. You either need the skills to make it worth while to refine, and still need to haul it to make any isk.
People ***** that missions are an "ISK Faucet." Which is hilarious to me. So whats mining? Moon mining? Ratting? The majority of eve use these to make ISK, which all is spawned from nowhere.
WoW has kids EvE has Cry Babies |
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Tulisin Dragonflame
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:13:00 -
[161]
The best part about this whole ordeal is that it is going to be discussed to death before release, and then once it hits all those folks who still haven't heard about it are going to flood the forums with "wat happen to market?!"
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:16:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Stephente What this game needs is a mass-scale war where tons of minerals are taken out of the game.
Yes. And yet, people are adamant on wanting to make it harder to lose ships, and to remove incentives for people to get their ships blown up. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:21:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Slade Hoo
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Cool. I hope they remove insurance on capital ships too, while they're at it. Its easily the biggest and dumbest insurance mistake they ever made.
hey...you an insured t2 carrier will cost around 300-400m. This is very much for a ship But even when ccp makes those insurance changes live...capitals won't be affected at all.
And you get even more back, in equal proportion to every other insurable ship.
Whats the average loss rate from the last QEN? Like 500-1000 capitals a month? They remove capital insurance and they'd be doing the economy a huge goddamn favour.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:31:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 13/03/2010 18:31:46 Ok heres how it works:
The insurance price on ships is the in game equivalent of "minimum state prices" on smokes.
Lower it and prices will drop.
Ore now costs less, everything produced by ore costs less, and of course the almighty plex costs less.
-------------------------------------------------- This is clearly a rage post because I lost my ship to a Lvl4 mission, We lost around 1.5b worth of tower, fuel and modules total. (Pause for amu |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.03.13 18:40:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: mygirl2 The drone regions are fine, people who dont want to train barge can still mine.
That's what's wrong with it: why should you be able to mine if you don't want to mine?
Because in the end, we're just doing some simulated action that gets us stuff so we can go get it blown up. A hulk pilot can also go ratting with his drones while he mines.
RP wise, rogue drones are a huge, self-replicating mining operation (and why on earth we have capsuleers doing mining that is so easily bottable, I don't know. You'd think we'd be good enough to make some very simple programs to do it for us, even if we just drive the ship there and let it slurp stuff up). People who are good at blowing stuff up go to the drone regions, and make off with what the rogue drones have.
It still takes time and effort to attack the drones, logistics to make sure you have the ammo there, and you move the minerals around etc.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.13 19:10:00 -
[166]
Originally by: mygirl2 People ***** that missions are an "ISK Faucet." Which is hilarious to me. So whats mining? Moon mining? Ratting? The majority of eve use these to make ISK, which all is spawned from nowhere.
Lets see, missions give rewards, time bonus, and bounties which are created from nothing.
Mining and moon mining get ISK from another player. The ISK is not created from nothing.
Missions and ratting are an ISK faucet.
Mining redistributes ISK from 1 person to another.
Office rent, sov bills, public slot fees, and some POS fuels are ISK sinks as ISK is removed from the game.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Aggressive Dissonance
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Posted - 2010.03.13 19:22:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/03/2010 19:23:32
Originally by: chatgris It still takes time and effort to attack the drones, logistics to make sure you have the ammo there, and you move the minerals around etc.
You mean it doesn't take time, ammo, effort, and logistics to get minerals in and out of the rest of 0.0 space? The effort required to get raw materials from point A to point B are just as present in Fountain or Paragon Soul as they are in Perrigen Falls. If anything, it's easier to move things from the drone regions since the minerals come pre-compressed; a luxury that doesn't exist for the rest of 0.0's denizens.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.03.13 19:40:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/03/2010 19:23:32
Originally by: chatgris It still takes time and effort to attack the drones, logistics to make sure you have the ammo there, and you move the minerals around etc.
You mean it doesn't take time, ammo, effort, and logistics to get minerals in and out of the rest of 0.0 space? The effort required to get raw materials from point A to point B are just as present in Fountain or Paragon Soul as they are in Perrigen Falls. If anything, it's easier to move things from the drone regions since the minerals come pre-compressed; a luxury that doesn't exist for the rest of 0.0's denizens.
The direction I meant to take was more this:
My basic premise: Everyone should be able to make a living in the type of gameplay that they enjoy. Mining rocks is incredibly boring for some, and shouldn't be the only way to input materials.
Now, in combat just shooting rats and getting ISK isn't sustainable IMO, it just leads to inflation. Thus, I think that combat pilots shooting with guns to get material and then taking it to market is better than just getting bounties. And it's not that different from shooting asteroids that don't shoot back with mining lasers. Plus, combat pilots doing so give greater potential for pvp than a hulk pilot.
I was not trying to belittle other forms of logistics.
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Ai Mei
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Posted - 2010.03.13 19:55:00 -
[169]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Cool. I hope they remove insurance on capital ships too, while they're at it. Its easily the biggest and dumbest insurance mistake they ever made.
There is nothing wrong with capital insurance you dont even get everything.
Carrier 650 - 700 million + 200 million in fighters + 50-400 million in mods, (smart carrier pilots have faction smarties at least) so about 1.1 for a carrier then another 250 million for insurence to get a pay out of 750 million for just a new carrier. I think capital insurance is ok.
and blahh blaah blaaaa. OP is a troll, insurance on the test server is not final. Remember when beta testing they had full pay outs for t2 ships and that did not make it into dominion? Yeah, take all the changes with a grain of salt cause they might not all happen.
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Baneken
Gallente Aseveljet
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Posted - 2010.03.13 20:30:00 -
[170]
Well if they would drop the insurance then it would be a question of "how much would you charge for sitting hours to and on a belt ?" Ultimately "time spent getting item X that someone else wants to buy" is what defines the prices in MMO.
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Amerilia
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Posted - 2010.03.13 20:49:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Amerilia on 13/03/2010 20:49:19
Originally by: Baneken Well if they would drop the insurance then it would be a question of "how much would you charge for sitting hours to and on a belt ?" Ultimately "time spent getting item X that someone else wants to buy" is what defines the prices in MMO.
time spent on building a ship? a few seconds, it builds itself. And the "minerals are free" people will probably do the rest.
So you that would bring us to around sisi prices, or what?
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Celtic industries F A I L
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Posted - 2010.03.13 21:07:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Ai Mei
and blahh blaah blaaaa. OP is a troll, insurance on the test server is not final. Remember when beta testing they had full pay outs for t2 ships and that did not make it into dominion? Yeah, take all the changes with a grain of salt cause they might not all happen.
Remember on test server they changed the T2 ship build ratios and it did make it into dominion?
Yeah, I do cause I made about 35 billion ISK off of that. HINT: It's worth looking at potential changes when they appear on SISI.
If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes Don't be greedy :P -Cap |
Baneken
Gallente Aseveljet
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Posted - 2010.03.13 23:00:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Baneken on 13/03/2010 23:02:17
Originally by: Amerilia Edited by: Amerilia on 13/03/2010 20:49:19
Originally by: Baneken Well if they would drop the insurance then it would be a question of "how much would you charge for sitting hours to and on a belt ?" Ultimately "time spent getting item X that someone else wants to buy" is what defines the prices in MMO.
time spent on building a ship? a few seconds, it builds itself. And the "minerals are free" people will probably do the rest.
So you that would bring us to around sisi prices, or what?
And where do you think those minerals come from ? Someone mined them or shot rats to get those minerals or bought from a market. You see it doesn't matter if making a ship takes a second when getting those minerals take hours anyway along with copying prints to make those ships.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.13 23:38:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Ai Mei
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Cool. I hope they remove insurance on capital ships too, while they're at it. Its easily the biggest and dumbest insurance mistake they ever made.
There is nothing wrong with capital insurance you dont even get everything.
Carrier 650 - 700 million + 200 million in fighters + 50-400 million in mods, (smart carrier pilots have faction smarties at least) so about 1.1 for a carrier then another 250 million for insurence to get a pay out of 750 million for just a new carrier. I think capital insurance is ok.
Christ, people on the forums are lazy. You haven't backed your argument with anything, you just stated facts about how insurance works that hold true for any tech 1 ship. Lets put this very simply:
- Basic 40% insurance is a safety net introduced for complete newbies, to prevent them from quitting the game after their first ship loss. You know, before they've even heard of how to insure their ships.
- Regular insurance exists to help regulate the sustainability of pvp, so people can fly something bigger than a frigate without fear.
Even if you somehow don't find this at complete odds with the concept of Capital ships, the idea that we should stop the unnecessary injection of trillions of isk per month to the economy is a fundamentally good one. Even more when you consider that isk enters the economy faster than it leaves, causing a constant and pointless buildup of wealth.
The fact that capital insurance is protecting some of the richest in the populace from their biggest mistakes doesn't even need mentioning.
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Benri Konpaku
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Posted - 2010.03.14 08:03:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Benri Konpaku on 14/03/2010 08:04:32 I'd like to see the insurance fee removed from the game, but in return have insurance that would be completely dependant on current market averages (calculated considering not only the price of the ship but also the price of materials required to build it) and paid say, 40%-75% of the avg value of the ship flat, depending on standings and things like that.
But I have no idea (or more exactly no interest in finding out) how that system could be implemented or what isk sink(s) to add to replace that fee.
So I'll just wait and see what CCP does about it. |
Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar Ma'adim Logistics
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Posted - 2010.03.14 10:58:00 -
[176]
Remove insurance and you remove pvp.
Reduce insurance and you remove mining as a non macro profession.
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Cyclops43
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Posted - 2010.03.14 11:08:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal Remove insurance and you remove pvp.
So people didn't PvP back when rigs were 20m each and back when guns were 15m each? Right! People don't use T2 ships for PvP either? Check!
Which game are you playing? It's definitely not EVE....
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal Reduce insurance and you remove mining as a non macro profession.
Macro'ers are MUCH more interested in high return than players. Reduce insurance, and you'll chase more macro's away than players.
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Prt Scr
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Posted - 2010.03.14 11:32:00 -
[178]
If insurance is being hit buy the nerf hammer it should be done right. leave premiums as they are, but add a no claims system. If you dont claim on a ship next insurance period your rate goes down. If you do claim next period your rate goes up. You want to gank and be ganked...why should the insurance companys pay for your bad habits? Insurance companys should be making a profit not subsidising a bunch of whinging loosers. And those of us with isk should be able to be shareholders and collect dividends, even more profit
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vetodel morei
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Posted - 2010.03.14 11:35:00 -
[179]
insurance payout on ships is not going to affect how much a ship costs, the amount of people mining and reprocessing affects the ship cost.
if minerals were to start dropping in price you would get less people mining, once that happens more demand then suply happens and so the cost of minerals goes up again
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.03.14 11:41:00 -
[180]
Originally by: vetodel morei insurance payout on ships is not going to affect how much a ship costs, the amount of people mining and reprocessing affects the ship cost.
if minerals were to start dropping in price you would get less people mining, once that happens more demand then suply happens and so the cost of minerals goes up again
Mission runners will still do missions and acquire modules they can reprocess for minerals, even if the prices drop. People will still loot then, as it's little added effort to the salvaging procedures. --------
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