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DJWiggles
Gallente Eve Radio Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:10:00 -
[31]
In my view its a step in the right direction, all that needs to happen now is concord payouts dropped by at least half again and we will be in a workable state IMHO
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:14:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Steve Celeste Mineral prices will just drop under the new insurance payout.
Nothing will change, there are just too many minerals being mined.
Exactly.
Minerals prices will adjust until they are in equilibrium with the new insurance prices again. |
Alchemist's Alt
Gallente Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:18:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails
Originally by: Sig Sour
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Hey cat
I think I love you lol FIRST!! Bring back Derek Chu |
Ella C'Tronix
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:28:00 -
[34]
But what is the purpose of the insurance system? I'm pretty sure it's not to go "oh, sorry you lost your ship, here's enough money to buy some ammo for your next one"
It's to offset the cost of loss in a standard ship.
I would happily trade off some T1 insurance payout for better T2 payout. That stuff is just nuts. Most of the T2 insurance deals I've seen don't even pay for my ammo :)
Oh, and I almost forgot. I just made you read my signature. |
Boomershoot
Caldari Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:32:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ella C'Tronix But what is the purpose of the insurance system?
Material to Valute Fixed Rate Conversion.
You insert Material You recieve Valute Material Value cannot drop below the Fixed Rate.
The parrot vortex signature had to go. No hypnotic graphics in signatures please. Shadow. World Domination With Hypnotic Parrots Status: FOILED! |
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:37:00 -
[36]
Originally by: DJWiggles In my view its a step in the right direction, all that needs to happen now is concord payouts dropped by at least half again and we will be in a workable state IMHO
No. An increase in ganks (especially against miners) when mineral prices drop below insurance rats is just another way for the market to find a balance – that mechanism should not be touched. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
DJWiggles
Gallente Eve Radio Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:40:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: DJWiggles In my view its a step in the right direction, all that needs to happen now is concord payouts dropped by at least half again and we will be in a workable state IMHO
No. An increase in ganks (especially against miners) when mineral prices drop below insurance rats is just another way for the market to find a balance û that mechanism should not be touched.
As I said it SHOULD be dropped so that if you lose a ship you have something going towards getting a replacement, if its at the hands of the police/concord you SHOULD get nothing as you are a criminal, this is how it happens in real insurance cases.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:41:00 -
[38]
words won't do this post justice so
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:44:00 -
[39]
Originally by: DJWiggles this is how it happens in real insurance cases.
Irrelevant. EVE insurance has nothing to do with real insurance. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
DJWiggles
Gallente Eve Radio Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:46:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: DJWiggles this is how it happens in real insurance cases.
Irrelevant. EVE insurance has nothing to do with real insurance.
Well I know this BUT we can also say the market has nothing to do with real life ... oh wait it does supply and demand. All I know is that there will be MANY pirate tears over this.
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Boomershoot
Caldari Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:48:00 -
[41]
Originally by: DJWiggles
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: DJWiggles this is how it happens in real insurance cases.
Irrelevant. EVE insurance has nothing to do with real insurance.
Well I know this BUT we can also say the market has nothing to do with real life ... oh wait it does supply and demand. All I know is that there will be MANY pirate tears over this.
Think of the backslash when CCP trashes the idead
The parrot vortex signature had to go. No hypnotic graphics in signatures please. Shadow. World Domination With Hypnotic Parrots Status: FOILED! |
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:52:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Tippia on 12/03/2010 22:53:19
Originally by: DJWiggles Well I know this BUT we can also say the market has nothing to do with real life ... oh wait it does supply and demand.
Your point being?
Quote: All I know is that there will be MANY pirate tears over this.
Unlikely. Unless you see a lot of pirates in capships. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
DJWiggles
Gallente Eve Radio Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:52:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Boomershoot
Originally by: DJWiggles
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: DJWiggles this is how it happens in real insurance cases.
Irrelevant. EVE insurance has nothing to do with real insurance.
Well I know this BUT we can also say the market has nothing to do with real life ... oh wait it does supply and demand. All I know is that there will be MANY pirate tears over this.
Think of the backslash when CCP trashes the idead
Maybe they will be maybe not BUT at least I will have something to talk about on the radio :D
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:52:00 -
[44]
Now they only need to nerf mineral input from secondary sources and prices may even stabilize instead of dropping further. --------
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Abrazzar Now they only need to nerf mineral input from secondary sources and prices may even stabilize instead of dropping further.
…or they can just do that, and achieve the same effect without resorting to a risky gamble with the game's fundamental value-giving mechanism. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.03.12 22:57:00 -
[46]
CCP is getting warmer
Originally by: Jim Raynor EVE needs danger, EVE needs risks, EVE needs combat, even piracy, without these things, the game stagnates to a trivial game centering around bloating your wallet with no purpose. |
Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.12 23:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tippia Or, more likely: insurance 100% removed = less reason to mine = more reason to run missions for your ISK = more ISK seeded = mineral value decreases even further = less reason to mineā
Fair logic, assuming the "less reason to mine" holds true - keep in mind ships still require minerals to be built. Yes there will be less of a demand as people wont be ganking freighters on a whim.
Even if the mineral market crashed off this, so what. I didn't complain about the scanning mechanics being changed, and it 'crashed' scanning related items like you wouldn't believe. That was my income before the improvements came to the scanning system. Everything exploration dive bombed in prices when the change came. My income was cut into 1/3 - I adapted and I enjoy the improvements, I didn't complain because it MADE THE GAME BETTER even if it was not good for me.
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DJWiggles
Gallente Eve Radio Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.12 23:07:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Tippia Or, more likely: insurance 100% removed = less reason to mine = more reason to run missions for your ISK = more ISK seeded = mineral value decreases even further = less reason to mineā
Fair logic, assuming the "less reason to mine" holds true - keep in mind ships still require minerals to be built. Yes there will be less of a demand as people wont be ganking freighters on a whim.
Even if the mineral market crashed off this, so what. I didn't complain about the scanning mechanics being changed, and it 'crashed' scanning related items like you wouldn't believe. That was my income before the improvements came to the scanning system. Everything exploration dive bombed in prices when the change came. My income was cut into 1/3 - I adapted and I enjoy the improvements, I didn't complain because it MADE THE GAME BETTER even if it was not good for me.
THIS ^^
That is what I think a lot of people will forget is that eve is a MMO and not a single player game. With changes there will always be haters and lovers of the changes, its like RL you adapt or you stop.
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Alchemist's Alt
Gallente Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.03.12 23:07:00 -
[49]
So im thinking reduce refinable drops from missions like 80% but increase bounties, wouldnt this increase mineral prices and encourage mining :D FIRST!! Bring back Derek Chu |
SweetHoney
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Posted - 2010.03.12 23:08:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Tippia Or, more likely: insurance 100% removed = less reason to mine = more reason to run missions for your ISK = more ISK seeded = mineral value decreases even further = less reason to mineā
Fair logic, assuming the "less reason to mine" holds true - keep in mind ships still require minerals to be built. Yes there will be less of a demand as people wont be ganking freighters on a whim.
Even if the mineral market crashed off this, so what. I didn't complain about the scanning mechanics being changed, and it 'crashed' scanning related items like you wouldn't believe. That was my income before the improvements came to the scanning system. Everything exploration dive bombed in prices when the change came. My income was cut into 1/3 - I adapted and I enjoy the improvements, I didn't complain because it MADE THE GAME BETTER even if it was not good for me.
I don't think anybody was whining about this change ... Getting all the T1 ships 40% cheaper ... can be good for the game , will see. |
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Celtic industries F A I L
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Posted - 2010.03.12 23:18:00 -
[51]
What I want to know is: is this just a reset of the mineral base prices, or have they been made dynamic?
If it's a reset and they're now fixed at the new prices (pretty much current prices it seems) then really this doesn't matter. All that will happen is T1 ships and minerals become worth a bit less... well, about a third less actually.
If they've changed the mineral base price to a dynamic value dependent on a daily/monthly/yearly whatever index, then they just wrecked the basic eve economy. Minerals will trend towards 0 value and ships - even capital ships - will follow.
If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes Don't be greedy :P -Cap |
DJWiggles
Gallente Eve Radio Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.12 23:19:00 -
[52]
Originally by: SweetHoney
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Tippia Or, more likely: insurance 100% removed = less reason to mine = more reason to run missions for your ISK = more ISK seeded = mineral value decreases even further = less reason to mineā
Fair logic, assuming the "less reason to mine" holds true - keep in mind ships still require minerals to be built. Yes there will be less of a demand as people wont be ganking freighters on a whim.
Even if the mineral market crashed off this, so what. I didn't complain about the scanning mechanics being changed, and it 'crashed' scanning related items like you wouldn't believe. That was my income before the improvements came to the scanning system. Everything exploration dive bombed in prices when the change came. My income was cut into 1/3 - I adapted and I enjoy the improvements, I didn't complain because it MADE THE GAME BETTER even if it was not good for me.
I don't think anybody was whining about this change ... Getting all the T1 ships 40% cheaper ... can be good for the game , will see.
atm the cost to build is the same in mats, its just a drop in payouts, yes it would be nice to have a 40% cost drop BUT that would then take all the money out of production
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Celtic industries F A I L
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Posted - 2010.03.12 23:35:00 -
[53]
Originally by: DJWiggles
Originally by: SweetHoney
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Tippia Or, more likely: insurance 100% removed = less reason to mine = more reason to run missions for your ISK = more ISK seeded = mineral value decreases even further = less reason to mineā
Fair logic, assuming the "less reason to mine" holds true - keep in mind ships still require minerals to be built. Yes there will be less of a demand as people wont be ganking freighters on a whim.
Even if the mineral market crashed off this, so what. I didn't complain about the scanning mechanics being changed, and it 'crashed' scanning related items like you wouldn't believe. That was my income before the improvements came to the scanning system. Everything exploration dive bombed in prices when the change came. My income was cut into 1/3 - I adapted and I enjoy the improvements, I didn't complain because it MADE THE GAME BETTER even if it was not good for me.
I don't think anybody was whining about this change ... Getting all the T1 ships 40% cheaper ... can be good for the game , will see.
atm the cost to build is the same in mats, its just a drop in payouts, yes it would be nice to have a 40% cost drop BUT that would then take all the money out of production
You're missing why this is a big deal:
The cost to build in mats is determined by the value of insurance. Insurance has for the past few years provided a (soft) price-floor to the mineral basket ensuring that all the minerals that go into say, a battleship, are always worth at least as much as a battleship.
See, the way it that works is that there are many more minerals entering the market than there is demand for them. Well, that's not exactly true there is demand for them because there's insurance, but say insurance was gone, there wouldn't be demand and so prices would drop. And by drop I mean crater.
Look at the historical prices of Zydrine, now look at Mega, now look at Pyer. See how while zyd and mega were going down pyer was going up? That's because it was 'relatively' more rare in the available minerals... So how did a drop in zyd and mega force pyer up?
Well, imagine all minerals becoming cheaper (which they have been doing), now look at insurance: at a certain point it becomes actually profitable to build a ship, and then immidiately suicide it because you paid less for the minerals than you're getting for the insurance payout. That's what happened with dropping zyd and mega, there was some industrial-scale building of tier 3 BS (something like 30.000 battleships built for suicide in november alone) and that ate up all the 'spare' minerals, forcing prices back up, particularly the price of pyer.
So what happens if insurance doesn't ensure that there is a price floor? Minerals drop. It becomes less costly to build a ship until it bumps into the new floor... if there is one. That's why it's important whether the mineral base-prices have been reset, in which case minerals just drop by that 30% or so that insurance payouts have or whether the base-price is now dynamic in which case minerals crash. Completely.
If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes Don't be greedy :P -Cap |
Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.03.12 23:37:00 -
[54]
I just canceled all my mineral buy orders. LET THE CRASH BEGIN!
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Celtic industries F A I L
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Posted - 2010.03.12 23:56:00 -
[55]
I'll cross-post from another forum, but as some people think this will somehow mean cheaper ships:
Originally by: "DStopia" ...
but if this means cheaper hurricanes then im all in for it
anything to reduce the ****ing grind to generate isk
This will not result in cheaper hurricanes. Sorry.
What will happen is at first hurricanes (as an example, actually all t1 ships) will cost the same as they do now, but their insurance payout will be less. Over time, the price of minerals will continue to fall, and eventually the hurricane will cost about as much to build as the insurance gives you back again.
So in the end, it will cost you exactly as much to lose a hurricane as it does now, seeing as how 90% of that cost is in modules/rigs whatever anyway. In the intervening time - and that could be months before minerals fall enough - a hurricane will cost you more to lose than it does now.
Again, if the base-price is dynamic it pretty much forever cost you more to lose a hurricane than it costs you now rather than just for a little while.
I suppose that eventually sustaining a capital ship fleet might end up slightly cheaper...
If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes Don't be greedy :P -Cap |
Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.03.13 01:03:00 -
[56]
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Siroh
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Posted - 2010.03.13 01:05:00 -
[57]
I wondered why blowing up my dread only yielded 980 m in insurance, A+ to fix CCP.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.03.13 01:08:00 -
[58]
Removal of insurance is good. Most everything in the game should be player market driven, and not artificially supported by NPCs or game mechanics. If min prices, and consequently T1 prices fall, so what. The end result will likely be that ship cost remains roughly the same as when full insurance is purchased and the ship is lost.
There is much greater supply than demand as it is right now. But this does not mean it will always remain so. Ammunition min requirements can go up, consuming excess minerals. New planetary infrastructure/production may require minerals, Dust may require minerals, ship and mod BPOs could be changed as well, all those POS modules could be handed over too, they could consume minerals as well. Demand can be increased. It is likely better that overabundance be evaluated with out insurance, before creating additional demand. As a step towards freeing the Eve economy from NPCs, this is a good move in that direction.
Those most impacted by the removal of insurance are new players. A safety net for anyone under three months old could be created - Noob insurance. |
Callista Sincera
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.03.13 01:22:00 -
[59]
I always wondered why they didn't have their economist update baseprices on a quarterly basis. - In simplistic terms it has been said that there is enough Zero Point Energy in the volume the size of a coffee cup to boil away EarthÆs oceans. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.03.13 01:25:00 -
[60]
All hands, brace for major laughter. Let the mineralopocalypse begin !
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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