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The Insurance Nerf... I Am Surprised No One Is Up In Arms About It Yet

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Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.03.16 03:25:00 - [271] Edited by: Tonto Auri on 16/03/2010 03:30:00 Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Whereas many people would like to see the empires become islands surrounded by lowsec, I'd like to see some more secure islands within the bounds of nullsec, with the hopes of being able to develop a real functioning economy there. Not really. The problem is that it's actually cheaper to haul to/from Jita, than to build up in-place. And that's because EVE is damn small now-a-days. I wouldn't mind some increased security (certainty?) in player-controlled sectors of space, but actually, this could be solved the other way, by making it extremely inefficient to haul resources anywhere past the (e.g.) current constellation. (Make minerals 100 times more in volume? Just a thought...) Quote: The problem also lies with industry being too easy to get into. It is fairly easy for a PvP corp's main fighting force to simply train some alts for an "industrial backbone", no real need to hire specialists when alts will get up to speed and be able to do the job fairly easily. Not really. You forgot the time factor. How fast (slow!) the replacement being built. P.S. Oh, and good snipe to p10. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Henri Rearden Gallente Mantic Mining Inc	Posted - 2010.03.16 03:31:00 - [272] Originally by: Tonto Auri Idealist much? Industrialists will not join military corp, that simple. It's not in their interest to be taxed. There's just NOTHING you can do to force industrialists part with money they earn, except if you blow up all NPC stations. Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame The idea is really that for industrial folks to optimize their output they'd have to be protected by military folks. The problem is that nullsec doesn't act so much as a center of industry as much as it is a strip mine where you make a mad grab for all the resources you can, and then haul them back to Jita to trade in peace and safety. Whereas many people would like to see the empires become islands surrounded by lowsec, I'd like to see some more secure islands within the bounds of nullsec, with the hopes of being able to develop a real functioning economy there. The problem also lies with industry being too easy to get into. It is fairly easy for a PvP corp's main fighting force to simply train some alts for an "industrial backbone", no real need to hire specialists when alts will get up to speed and be able to do the job fairly easily. Tulisin made an excellent response, highlighting the necessity of military security for functional industry operation, and pointed out something I hadn't thought of: Industry IS too easy to get into. If this type of change were implemented, it would need to be made harder. The concerns about nullsec not functioning as a center of industry wouldn't be an issue because there would be no high-sec. Problem solved. :-)
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.03.16 03:39:00 - [273] Originally by: Henri Rearden Tulisin made an excellent response, highlighting the necessity of military security for functional industry operation, and pointed out something I hadn't thought of: Industry IS too easy to get into. If this type of change were implemented, it would need to be made harder. The concerns about nullsec not functioning as a center of industry wouldn't be an issue because there would be no high-sec. Problem solved. :-) You completely missed the point that military force is the plague of economy, made by human mind out of boredom. If there's nothing to blow up, there's no military need. Nor there's any present. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Henri Rearden Gallente Mantic Mining Inc	Posted - 2010.03.16 05:10:00 - [274] Originally by: Tonto Auri Originally by: Henri Rearden Tulisin made an excellent response, highlighting the necessity of military security for functional industry operation, and pointed out something I hadn't thought of: Industry IS too easy to get into. If this type of change were implemented, it would need to be made harder. The concerns about nullsec not functioning as a center of industry wouldn't be an issue because there would be no high-sec. Problem solved. :-) You completely missed the point that military force is the plague of economy, made by human mind out of boredom. If there's nothing to blow up, there's no military need. Nor there's any present. I have to respectfully express my disagreement with that statement. If we look back through history, we will find that military action arises not out of boredom, but out of desire to possess and control that which belongs to someone else - or, of course, the desire to defend oneself and possessions from the same. You surely can't be implying that without NPC ships to destroy, nobody would want to PvP, take territory, struggle for possession of adventageous resources...? Perhaps I still misunderstand what you mean.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.16 06:51:00 - [275] Originally by: MaterialsEngineer Kariya Material sinks I believe will come in the next expansion. The best type of mineral sink is the need for engineers to repair structures weekly, especially any plantary base. Eve doesn't have a durability stat, which is weird considering ships/structures wear and tear like anything else in the universe. All that welding, bolts, plates and what not adds up! A simple way would be to have station repairs consume materials (an maybe even armor/hull repairers using materials). The problem would be shields. If they auto repair at no cost and every other form of repairs cost materials they would becom eextremly unbalanced.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.03.16 09:25:00 - [276] Originally by: Tonto Auri Originally by: Henri Rearden Tulisin made an excellent response, highlighting the necessity of military security for functional industry operation, and pointed out something I hadn't thought of: Industry IS too easy to get into. If this type of change were implemented, it would need to be made harder. The concerns about nullsec not functioning as a center of industry wouldn't be an issue because there would be no high-sec. Problem solved. :-) You completely missed the point that military force is the plague of economy, made by human mind out of boredom. If there's nothing to blow up, there's no military need. Nor there's any present. But in EVE, if nothing gets blown up, there's no economy.
Akita Tee Jita Investments and Trade Firm	Posted - 2010.03.16 10:23:00 - [277] did not read past page 5... but what I got was this: Akita T is ****ed that cheaper T1 ships will kill demand for T2 ships and Technetium products (Think Hulks). You know, since he is sitting on 5 million units of the crap. "To imitate the god of the people, when he acts like a fool, makes one a wise ass."
IVeige Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.16 10:48:00 - [278] Originally by: Akita Tee did not read past page 5... but what I got was this: Akita T is ****ed
David Grogan Gallente Final Conflict UK Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.03.16 11:54:00 - [279] aint the test server prices all set to 100 isk for everything? surely that is why the insurance is not right on it. SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:03:00 - [280] My question would be that without insurance what would the mineral cap be at? I mean I understand that insurance is the hedge against free market on ship materials, which imo is stupid in terms of design but the nature of human greed forced it so. I do agree missions generate far to much minerals. So to start... Remove all ammo and tech 1 meta 0 drops from the tabels, and dont compenstate for lost drops at all. This will shift tech 1 production and possibly spur it a bit (thus increase mineral use as well) Then make drone guts not fully refinable whever you bring it too. Further extremes would be to make it so that meta level models no longer drop purely but isntead as mentioned earlier parts and chips needed to make a tech 1 item INTO a meta item, this will further increase mineral sinking and increase tech 1 item demands and opens the door for possible tech 2 meta items. But as it stands we have to wait until we see what tryanis brings us. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 24FEB10

MaterialsEngineer Kariya Caldari Deformed inc A.P.O.P.H.I.S	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:11:00 - [281] Originally by: Venkul Mul A simple way would be to have station repairs consume materials (an maybe even armor/hull repairers using materials). The problem would be shields. If they auto repair at no cost and every other form of repairs cost materials they would becom eextremly unbalanced. That wouldn't be very realistic, and there won't be any side products produced (e.g., bolts, plates, wiring, etc.). The added benefit is, it'll give something for industrialists to do in 0.0, especially after their slots are full with things baking in the oven. Not just logging them in to do odd jobs, add a skill in a queue and log off, never intending to make that alt do anything else but fill a quick role.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:11:00 - [282] Originally by: Nova Fox Then make drone guts not fully refinable whever you bring it too. Leaving the other proposal aside, any suggestion on what drone regions residents should do? Not that a nerf in mineral values will help them in any way, but further penalizing them mean making that part of EVE a wasteland.
Dianna Soreil Monolithic. Aggressive Dissonance	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:45:00 - [283] Originally by: Akita Tee did not read past page 5... but what I got was this: Akita T is ****ed that cheaper T1 ships will kill demand for T2 ships and Technetium products (Think Hulks). You know, since he is sitting on 5 million units of the crap. doesn't moar liquid isk == moar isk to spend on T2?
NEMESIS SIN Method In Khaos	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:57:00 - [284] PAGE 10 \0/!! Yes this thread is that epic . . .
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.03.16 13:47:00 - [285] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Nova Fox Then make drone guts not fully refinable whever you bring it too. Leaving the other proposal aside, any suggestion on what drone regions residents should do? Not that a nerf in mineral values will help them in any way, but further penalizing them mean making that part of EVE a wasteland. Possibilities include: (1) Drone alloys refining to moon minerals (2) Drones wrecks yielding more salvage (3) Drone faction modules and ships (would be p popular) (4) Some new previouslyunobtanium stuff like specialised decryptoresque itmes required for building all these new meta BPC-style drops we'll hopefully be seeing. Eg: bounty rat drops a "wrecked modified 425mm railgun" which can be constructed to make a meta item - but using an "Alvus Reconstruction Unit" improves your chance of getting a higher meta item. Put in some fluff about rogue drones having partially cracked the DRM on human nanite engineering or something.
Slade Hoo Amarr Corpse Collection Point	Posted - 2010.03.16 14:03:00 - [286] Originally by: Malcanis Possibilities include: (1) Drone alloys refining to moon minerals (2) Drones wrecks yielding more salvage (3) Drone faction modules and ships (would be p popular) (4) Some new previouslyunobtanium stuff like specialised decryptoresque itmes required I really like Option No. 1. But this would lead to an infinite supply of moon minerals..consequences could be fatally for t2-business. No2. : is ok for me. No3. : CCP already stated that there will be no rogue drone ships in eve. But i like your idea of drone guns, etc. In another forum there was a suggestion about also adding more stuff like parts for special drones (augmented, integrated,etc.). ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum!
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr InterSun Freelance	Posted - 2010.03.16 14:11:00 - [287] Malcanis, where exactly did you hear about the plans for replacing loot drops with 'damaged' modules that can be converted into meta items? casue that would be a great idea as it would remove a huge ammount of minerals from the market at a stroke.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.03.16 14:14:00 - [288] Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Malcanis, where exactly did you hear about the plans for replacing loot drops with 'damaged' modules that can be converted into meta items? casue that would be a great idea as it would remove a huge ammount of minerals from the market at a stroke. From the voices in my head. They tell me things.
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.03.16 14:35:00 - [289] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Nova Fox Then make drone guts not fully refinable whever you bring it too. Leaving the other proposal aside, any suggestion on what drone regions residents should do? Not that a nerf in mineral values will help them in any way, but further penalizing them mean making that part of EVE a wasteland. Making it so that you don't need to bring an industrial to rat in the drone regions would be better for everyone, methinks. Drone alloys always struck me as a pretty lazy way of making rogue drones unique anyways. Make drones drop components for worthwhile factional drones. There have to be 40+ kinds of player-usable drones. Giving even half of those one variant should provide tons of different drops for the drones to have. Also, Gallente/Amarr hybrid drone "pirate" ships!
Kewso	Posted - 2010.03.16 14:55:00 - [290] Yea I agree that killed by concord or self destructing should not give insurance

bff Jill	Posted - 2010.03.16 15:11:00 - [291] self destruction has to give insurance or minerals will become almost worthless - Killed by concord probably shouldn't, however. Not that that would seriously ruin suicide ganking, just make a few targets that would have maybe been worth the hassle no longer be worth the hassle.
AngryMax Gallente Woopatang	Posted - 2010.03.16 15:12:00 - [292] Originally by: Windbag Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. EVE is not yak yak, its blah blah. And you have no yak what you blah blah about. Blah blah blah, low sec yada yada blah. Insurance, high sec industry blah blah. Yakadiyak, nonsense, real backbone yak yak. Making it so yak yak blah blahs the monkeypants. 1) Blah blah blah faction. 2) Yada yada possibilities. 3) Blah blah blah blah. 4) Market shmarket Whatever. Yak yak industry yak yak yak, blah blah blah. Lol. Therefore, blah blah is yakidy yak yak. And if you disagree, you have no blah blah what you yak yak about.
Motseth	Posted - 2010.03.16 15:24:00 - [293] Alliances have a **load of isks and make loads of titans and dreads because they dont lose enough isks when their battleship fleets get killed, insurance covers most of the pie that was lost. Just remove insurance, insurance is a and makes no sense, remove this feature please. People would start flying smaller and much funnier ships, insurance is killing this game. This game is not for losers, if you are a loser, pack up your stuff and get the ** out, if not you dont need insurance because you are smart enough to know that you shouldnt use ships you cant afford, people will start to use t1 cruisers and frigates and the game would be much more fun for everyone. But Im probably wrong on that.
Slade Hoo Amarr Corpse Collection Point	Posted - 2010.03.16 15:27:00 - [294] reducing insurance output won't solve your suicide-gank problem or costs for ships after insurance. get familiar with eve economy and post again, thanks. ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum!
Kuar Z'thain Fraser's Finest	Posted - 2010.03.16 15:30:00 - [295] Originally by: Akita Tee did not read past page 5... but what I got was this: Akita T is ****ed that cheaper T1 ships will kill demand for T2 ships and Technetium products (Think Hulks). You know, since he is sitting on 5 million units of the crap. Wow, take that crap back to MD. You're just jealous Akita T made bank on speculating Technetium for Dominion.
Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2010.03.16 15:31:00 - [296] Originally by: Slade Hoo reducing insurance output won't solve your suicide-gank problem or costs for ships after insurance. get familiar with eve economy and post again, thanks. If ship base cost was calculated as 90% of the average price at which a ship changes hands, and recalculated every downtime, surely this would go some way to fixing insurance. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Gunfugue	Posted - 2010.03.16 15:43:00 - [297] Originally by: Marchocias Originally by: Slade Hoo reducing insurance output won't solve your suicide-gank problem or costs for ships after insurance. get familiar with eve economy and post again, thanks. If ship base cost was calculated as 90% of the average price at which a ship changes hands, and recalculated every downtime, surely this would go some way to fixing insurance. Untill everyone decided to manipulate ship costs to a billion isk and then self destruct their stock =P
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:01:00 - [298] you need to be a total moron to lose any of the dedicated transport ships. Thats the main problem in eve. the "harsh world" concept is broken because people can precisely decide what amount of iskies to put at risk at any time. Everything else gets jumped around in jumpfreighters or cloaky warpies
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:07:00 - [299] As a null-sec dweller, I doubt insurance changes will have any effect on 0.0 pvp. First off, the only T1 ships accepted in fleets are battleships and capitals. BS losses are basically just module losses now, and are projected to be the same after this nerf. Capitals lose more due to Fighters and uber mods. Many alliances cover the replacement cost of these ships when used in fleet battles. T2 ships are the remainder of null-sec ships. It sounds like T2 insurance will actually go UP. At present, I don't even insure T2 ships. The need to protect your 0.0 space overrides any cost in doing so.
bff Jill	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:18:00 - [300] Edited by: bff Jill on 16/03/2010 16:19:53 The problem has nothing to do with ship costs, it has to do with crashing the mineral market since the only thing that keeps t1 ships costs where they currently are, and therefore sets the price of minerals, is that nobody is going to sell their stock of t1 ships for less than they could make blowing them up with insurance. insurance goes down -> ship cost goes down due to market competition -> mineral prices go down because people are not going to pay more for minerals than they can make selling/blowing the ship up. As has been said, EVE works backwards. Its not supply and demand, there is more supply than anybody needs. Its insurance payoff vs demand. You either convert the minerals to battleships and blow them up, or turn them into something people want enough to pay more for than you would get for turning it into a battleship and blowing it up. Insurance is the base line and people who produce t1 and sell them skim just right above that line, a tiny tiny amount, due to constant market competition.



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