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What am I Paying for?

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pimpalicious	Posted - 2004.11.30 14:36:00 - [91] Originally by: Vaio well 1 if you do not like the game "the product" you do not like what you are paying for "eve online" cancel your subscription. Most people do like Eve-Online but with the new patch is becomes impossible to play for some. I am paying for Eve for about 10 months or so, and I never had the problems I have now since Exodus came out. Today I managed to play over a half hour without Eve freezing my system while I warp into some rats. After a week of crashing, aggrivating bugs etc people will speak up, why saying they should cancel their subscription if they dont like it, some people may even been player longer than you, why give up a year of fun for a week of frustration? It's dumb.
pimpalicious	Posted - 2004.11.30 14:36:00 - [92] Originally by: Vaio well 1 if you do not like the game "the product" you do not like what you are paying for "eve online" cancel your subscription. Most people do like Eve-Online but with the new patch is becomes impossible to play for some. I am paying for Eve for about 10 months or so, and I never had the problems I have now since Exodus came out. Today I managed to play over a half hour without Eve freezing my system while I warp into some rats. After a week of crashing, aggrivating bugs etc people will speak up, why saying they should cancel their subscription if they dont like it, some people may even been player longer than you, why give up a year of fun for a week of frustration? It's dumb.
Andrue	Posted - 2004.11.30 14:55:00 - [93] Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 30/11/2004 12:39:47 Quote: sure it's a matter of procedure. But, tell me, how would you propose should CCP test an environment where 10k players play at the same time? I don't see how having 10k simultanious players is the root cause of 90% of the bugs we are experiencing... You aren't a software developer then. I have no problems with the concept. Eve doesn't use handshaking between client and server. Commands are sent and assumed to succeed (that's why we have to have session change timers) and why we have silly messages telling us wait before we change ships. When you undock your client originally just assumed that the database would do the undocking stuff and just started you moving. That created problems and so now the client has to wait a respectable interval to ensure that the database doesn't get out of synch with the client. The advantage of such a system is it appears to be faster and suffers less from lag. The downside is that as more and more people start hitting the database obscure timing issues can creep in. The market has just gone more public and as such is a prime candidate for synchronisation issues. I actually expected some problems and I think I posted a warning to that effect. As you approach a gate your client (which might be slightly out of synch with the database) has to try and keep pace with other player's clients which are also likely out of synch with the database. In other MMPRPGs you'd all have to wait while the database ensured everyone knew what was going on. Eve works around this. Sorta. Quote: These guys are lazy, and the "expect bugs after a new patch" is a serious cop-out. No they aren't and no it isn't. It's sensible advice. I've been playing since the roll-out and aside from some issues on Saturday which have now been resolved it's business as usual. It isn't reasonable to expect CCP to employ enough developers and testers to ensure a 100% bug free roll out. It is certainly possible to do that but for a game isn't justifiable. The level of complaints I've seen from the forums and in game show that most people are just experiencing a few usability issues. These are to be expected and will hopefully be ironed out over the next couple of weeks. ----------- The only complaint I would genuinely level at Eve's developers is that they all seem to be technical programmers. Eve has always smacked of being written by coders for coders. The UI design (which has improved a lot with Exodus) and menu ordering are either unintuitive or inefficient (nice to see the changes to recycle. Finally). I think they need someone on their team that is an experienced UI designer. Someone that can look at Eve from a user's POV. The most glaring example of what I mean is the right click menu in space. No user would clutter it like that. Then there's the infamous ammo/crystal selection which I'm given to understand is still Exodus. Very poor design. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2004.11.30 14:55:00 - [94] Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 30/11/2004 12:39:47 Quote: sure it's a matter of procedure. But, tell me, how would you propose should CCP test an environment where 10k players play at the same time? I don't see how having 10k simultanious players is the root cause of 90% of the bugs we are experiencing... You aren't a software developer then. I have no problems with the concept. Eve doesn't use handshaking between client and server. Commands are sent and assumed to succeed (that's why we have to have session change timers) and why we have silly messages telling us wait before we change ships. When you undock your client originally just assumed that the database would do the undocking stuff and just started you moving. That created problems and so now the client has to wait a respectable interval to ensure that the database doesn't get out of synch with the client. The advantage of such a system is it appears to be faster and suffers less from lag. The downside is that as more and more people start hitting the database obscure timing issues can creep in. The market has just gone more public and as such is a prime candidate for synchronisation issues. I actually expected some problems and I think I posted a warning to that effect. As you approach a gate your client (which might be slightly out of synch with the database) has to try and keep pace with other player's clients which are also likely out of synch with the database. In other MMPRPGs you'd all have to wait while the database ensured everyone knew what was going on. Eve works around this. Sorta. Quote: These guys are lazy, and the "expect bugs after a new patch" is a serious cop-out. No they aren't and no it isn't. It's sensible advice. I've been playing since the roll-out and aside from some issues on Saturday which have now been resolved it's business as usual. It isn't reasonable to expect CCP to employ enough developers and testers to ensure a 100% bug free roll out. It is certainly possible to do that but for a game isn't justifiable. The level of complaints I've seen from the forums and in game show that most people are just experiencing a few usability issues. These are to be expected and will hopefully be ironed out over the next couple of weeks. ----------- The only complaint I would genuinely level at Eve's developers is that they all seem to be technical programmers. Eve has always smacked of being written by coders for coders. The UI design (which has improved a lot with Exodus) and menu ordering are either unintuitive or inefficient (nice to see the changes to recycle. Finally). I think they need someone on their team that is an experienced UI designer. Someone that can look at Eve from a user's POV. The most glaring example of what I mean is the right click menu in space. No user would clutter it like that. Then there's the infamous ammo/crystal selection which I'm given to understand is still Exodus. Very poor design. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2004.11.30 15:04:00 - [95] Edited by: Andrue on 30/11/2004 15:08:31 Originally by: DarkMatter The mindset has to change... It depends on the market. If we were talking about software for air traffic control then absolutely. That stuff should work first time and run without a glitch. But we aren't. We're talking about a silly computer game. It's an optional, luxury service. If it doesn't work for a week then no one gets hurt. Worst case scenario we all get a week's subscription given back to us. It says something about people who can get so worked up over a computer game. It says that they a poorly developed sense of proportion and/or don't understand business economics. Like all services Eve is excluded from being fit for any purpose. If you want to 'ban' incompletely or inadequately verified software then you ban 95% of the software out there. You wouldn't have Eve or probably any games except Scrabble and Solitaire. Open Source software would be a non-existant phenomena. The home PC would not be viable. Get things into proper perspective. Eve is an incredibly complex undertaking and for CCP to be able to develop such a project and run it so successfully while getting by on the pittance of a game player's subscription marketing model is a remarkable achievement. Exodus has not been a disaster and seems quite playable for most people. Give them a few weeks to iron out the rough edges and all will be fine again. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2004.11.30 15:04:00 - [96] Edited by: Andrue on 30/11/2004 15:08:31 Originally by: DarkMatter The mindset has to change... It depends on the market. If we were talking about software for air traffic control then absolutely. That stuff should work first time and run without a glitch. But we aren't. We're talking about a silly computer game. It's an optional, luxury service. If it doesn't work for a week then no one gets hurt. Worst case scenario we all get a week's subscription given back to us. It says something about people who can get so worked up over a computer game. It says that they a poorly developed sense of proportion and/or don't understand business economics. Like all services Eve is excluded from being fit for any purpose. If you want to 'ban' incompletely or inadequately verified software then you ban 95% of the software out there. You wouldn't have Eve or probably any games except Scrabble and Solitaire. Open Source software would be a non-existant phenomena. The home PC would not be viable. Get things into proper perspective. Eve is an incredibly complex undertaking and for CCP to be able to develop such a project and run it so successfully while getting by on the pittance of a game player's subscription marketing model is a remarkable achievement. Exodus has not been a disaster and seems quite playable for most people. Give them a few weeks to iron out the rough edges and all will be fine again. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Brobro	Posted - 2004.11.30 15:56:00 - [97] Originally by: Pargon Why am I not experiencing this lag or rubber-band jumps that a few of you keep mentioning? You have to be outside the station to experience them
Brobro	Posted - 2004.11.30 15:56:00 - [98] Originally by: Pargon Why am I not experiencing this lag or rubber-band jumps that a few of you keep mentioning? You have to be outside the station to experience them
DarkMatter	Posted - 2004.11.30 16:06:00 - [99] Quote: Exodus has not been a disaster and seems quite playable for most people. Give them a few weeks to iron out the rough edges and all will be fine again. Ok, I'll give them that... As soon as they give me 2 weeks worth of subscription money back, and all the isk & modules I lose because of bugs... Seems only fair, right?
DarkMatter	Posted - 2004.11.30 16:06:00 - [100] Quote: Exodus has not been a disaster and seems quite playable for most people. Give them a few weeks to iron out the rough edges and all will be fine again. Ok, I'll give them that... As soon as they give me 2 weeks worth of subscription money back, and all the isk & modules I lose because of bugs... Seems only fair, right?
MiracleMaker	Posted - 2004.11.30 17:14:00 - [101] Edited by: MiracleMaker on 30/11/2004 17:26:09 Originally by: DarkMatter As soon as they give me 2 weeks worth of subscription money back, and all the isk & modules I lose because of bugs... Seems only fair, right? Ok, the only way in H*L they should give you your money back would be if skill training stopped working. Regardless if every other feature in this game does or doesnt work, you are improving your character. As for the eqipment loss, they are being nice and replacing it for people. But if you are head strong and feel compelled to continue to lose it over and over again, how can you expect them to feel sorry? Everyone is a little frustrated, patience grasshopper and you will succeed. You have grabbed the knife by the blade once and were cut. The knife will not feel sorry drawing blood grabbing its blade a second time. _______________________________________________ Making Miracles, One pod at a time*
MiracleMaker	Posted - 2004.11.30 17:14:00 - [102] Edited by: MiracleMaker on 30/11/2004 17:26:09 Originally by: DarkMatter As soon as they give me 2 weeks worth of subscription money back, and all the isk & modules I lose because of bugs... Seems only fair, right? Ok, the only way in H*L they should give you your money back would be if skill training stopped working. Regardless if every other feature in this game does or doesnt work, you are improving your character. As for the eqipment loss, they are being nice and replacing it for people. But if you are head strong and feel compelled to continue to lose it over and over again, how can you expect them to feel sorry? Everyone is a little frustrated, patience grasshopper and you will succeed. You have grabbed the knife by the blade once and were cut. The knife will not feel sorry drawing blood grabbing its blade a second time. _______________________________________________ Making Miracles, One pod at a time*
DarkMatter	Posted - 2004.11.30 17:16:00 - [103] Quote: But if you are head strong and feel compelled to continue to lose it over and over again, how can you expect them to feel sorry? Me? Headstrong? I take exception to that remark!
DarkMatter	Posted - 2004.11.30 17:16:00 - [104] Quote: But if you are head strong and feel compelled to continue to lose it over and over again, how can you expect them to feel sorry? Me? Headstrong? I take exception to that remark!
Trader Klyde	Posted - 2004.11.30 17:29:00 - [105] Wow, this entire thread just goes to show ya how passionate (sp?) Eve players are. In all of my online gaming history, I have yet to experience a bug-free game, much less a bug-free major expansion / update. Heck, most minor patches introduce bugs of some sort. It is the nature of the beast I'm afraid. Those who are upset by it should resolve themselves to either play "single-player" games, or, not play any games period. Many of the problems with this patch I never had when logged onto Singularity. Give em a break guys, they have been working night and day to sort things out. ________________________________________________ From deep in space where nobody hears my screams... Sometimes in fear, sometimes in anger, mostly just my singing style.
Trader Klyde	Posted - 2004.11.30 17:29:00 - [106] Wow, this entire thread just goes to show ya how passionate (sp?) Eve players are. In all of my online gaming history, I have yet to experience a bug-free game, much less a bug-free major expansion / update. Heck, most minor patches introduce bugs of some sort. It is the nature of the beast I'm afraid. Those who are upset by it should resolve themselves to either play "single-player" games, or, not play any games period. Many of the problems with this patch I never had when logged onto Singularity. Give em a break guys, they have been working night and day to sort things out. ________________________________________________ From deep in space where nobody hears my screams... Sometimes in fear, sometimes in anger, mostly just my singing style.
AngelDown	Posted - 2004.12.03 18:27:00 - [107] It looks like Water in the Picture.
AngelDown	Posted - 2004.12.03 18:27:00 - [108] It looks like Water in the Picture.
Deadmetal	Posted - 2004.12.03 19:08:00 - [109] Originally by: Grosvenor Corama Originally by: MysticNZ I fully agree with you. I have lost 4 ships and 10m since the patch due to lag/bugs. I had 1 ship left and 300k isk, if I lose this to lag, im leaving. I pretty much have nothing left. The only responces your going to get is: "OMG THIS EXPANSION WAS FREE!! OMG U WHINER!" "CPP ARE DOING A GOOD JOB, GIVE THEM SOME TIME" Screw that, WE CANT PLAY YOUR MORONS! We are paying for something we cannot use. They will boast about the new player limit of 12.2k users, yet they won't say anything about the lag and bugs. If you lost those ships to bugs, then petition for it. GMs got a heavy load atm, so might take them a bit, but they'll get to it, and if there was a bug involved you'll get your stuff back. The actual chances of you getting your stuff back run somewhere between 0% and "chuck you Farley" I speak from personal experience. Unless you can definatively prove that there was an error.. OR there is other incontrovertable proof.. the response will be "We are sorry. our logs cannot support your claim." End Trans.. "Human Nature - If someone put a big red button in a remote mountain cave with a sign on it 'End of the world button!! Do not push!!.. the paint wouldn't have a chance to dry."
Deadmetal	Posted - 2004.12.03 19:08:00 - [110] Originally by: Grosvenor Corama Originally by: MysticNZ I fully agree with you. I have lost 4 ships and 10m since the patch due to lag/bugs. I had 1 ship left and 300k isk, if I lose this to lag, im leaving. I pretty much have nothing left. The only responces your going to get is: "OMG THIS EXPANSION WAS FREE!! OMG U WHINER!" "CPP ARE DOING A GOOD JOB, GIVE THEM SOME TIME" Screw that, WE CANT PLAY YOUR MORONS! We are paying for something we cannot use. They will boast about the new player limit of 12.2k users, yet they won't say anything about the lag and bugs. If you lost those ships to bugs, then petition for it. GMs got a heavy load atm, so might take them a bit, but they'll get to it, and if there was a bug involved you'll get your stuff back. The actual chances of you getting your stuff back run somewhere between 0% and "chuck you Farley" I speak from personal experience. Unless you can definatively prove that there was an error.. OR there is other incontrovertable proof.. the response will be "We are sorry. our logs cannot support your claim." End Trans.. "Human Nature - If someone put a big red button in a remote mountain cave with a sign on it 'End of the world button!! Do not push!!.. the paint wouldn't have a chance to dry."

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