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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.03.18 14:31:00 -
[31]
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 18/03/2010 14:45:29
Originally by: Marlona Sky Any input from the power blocks?
I actually expect zero support from them to be honest because this would open up the door for smaller entities to claim a piece of 0.0
Also , very good idea that would hit everything that is evil : Blobs, steamrolling over smaller entities just for lulz and NAPTRAINS. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.18 16:23:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 18/03/2010 16:24:11
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 18/03/2010 14:45:29
Originally by: Marlona Sky Any input from the power blocks?
I actually expect zero support from them to be honest because this would open up the door for smaller entities to claim a piece of 0.0
Also , very good idea that would hit everything that is evil : Blobs, steamrolling over smaller entities just for lulz and NAPTRAINS.
Which is why the very little feedback from anyone part of a power block has been fierce opposition to the idea. All others from power blocks won't post for fear of bumping the idea. Can't imagine why. The smaller entities seem interested in it. Still need more feedback regardless.
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Peter Powers
FinFleet IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.18 16:54:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Peter Powers you are not making any sense, you claim this is to limit larger alliances and support smaller ones, however you exclude jump freighters, which are mostly used by larger alliances, while limiting carriers, which are the poor mans transport. again: get lost.
Any more feedback from the power blocks?
This is not "Feedback from the power blocks" its feedback by me.
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
He didn't say it was to 'limit larger alliances' because that would be just undefined and meaningless, he said it was to encourage strategic deployment of forces and reduce cap ship blobs.
oh? havent you read?
Originally by: Marlona Sky
I actually expect zero support from them to be honest because this would open up the door for smaller entities to claim a piece of 0.0
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
Carriers can't carry squat anymore and even medium sized corps use jump freighters. As far as I'm aware no one has yet been slaughtered by a Jump Freighter blob and Jump Freighters facilitate smaller entities operating at the fringes. Therefore it does not appear to be logical to suggest that this exception would undo the intent or negate the merit of the suggestion.
Carriers can still hold quite some ships, and other stuff, and have alot greater range than jumpfreighters. And most Pilots i know use carriers, not jumpfreighters for their personal logistics.
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Which is why the very little feedback from anyone part of a power block has been fierce opposition to the idea. All others from power blocks won't post for fear of bumping the idea. Can't imagine why. The smaller entities seem interested in it. Still need more feedback regardless.
The opposition you encounter is because its a stupid, gamebreaking idea. and the "smaller entites interested" seem to be more attracted by the claim it would hit the powerblocks, the by any reasonable logic behind it.. probably because of its lack.
Probably you would even get positive feedback if you said "buying all battleships from market and selfdestructing 'em hurts the powerblocks, cause they cant build their blobs anymore" |
Straight Hustlin
Gallente The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.03.18 17:16:00 -
[34]
I don't see how this would add anything to the game but headaches. Essentially your taking a trip that is already going to take several hours to work out, take days. For example, under your idea, if we wanted to go assault the North, it would take 3 and a half days to get there. While it would add some degree of strategy and planning to your jumps; it would seriously diminish from many other viable strategies, Such as sneak attacks/hot drops or a blitzkrieg type assault. What you have proposed favors the defender way too much. As opposed to having at best a few hours to prepare for an assault, the defenders would have days. In my eyes this would lead to an even further stagnation of the political landscape.
Your idea does have merit tho. It is trivially easy to move a cap fleet, just jump, dock for capa, repeat. To this end I would counter your proposal with this. Instead of a ridiculous cool down time between jumps, Why not a spool up time before the jump? So instead of just burning 70% of your cap and jumping out, You burn off 70% of your cap and then have to wait a reasonable amount of time (5-15m IMO) before you can actually initiate the jump. Additionally it could be made so that if you warp or cloak, the timer resets, so you couldnÆt just bounce safe spots or hide to wait out the timer.
I think this would add alot more depth to the game, as well as changing the way capital slugfests go down. There would no longer be the option of simply jumping out to avoid taking more losses. This would force people to really commit to the battle instead of just hoping their not bubbled if **** goes south so they can jump out. Sure you could try to get out, but you would sacrifice 70% of your cap, and still have to wait for the drives to come online, putting you at a serious disadvantage should you be under fire.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.18 18:20:00 -
[35]
I am concerned with how easy and secure cap ship traveling is.
There is virtually no way of stopping a cap fleet invasion - just the system cyno jammer, which isn't flexible solution. As cap ships never use gates, they don't face the common dangers of gate camp pvp or even roaming gangs. They can cross the entire EVE map faster than the fastest interceptor. There is no effective way to "scout" the cap fleet force ahead of time - since they can be positioned in systems far away, or just sitting docked waiting for cyno, just to be in action within 1 minute.
I have an idea to propose, tho it's not well fleshed out yet:
****************************************** Create new space similar to WH, call it hyperspace or whatever. Whenever a jump drive capable ship selects "jump to cyno" - it enters this new space and starts animation similar to "warp drive active". It would essentially warp somewhere in that hyperspace. The time duration of this hyper-warp would be directly proportional to the distance in light years for the cyno jump. Lets say that a near system jump would take 30-40 seconds, while the max jump range would take 3-4 minutes.
If the cyno generator is destroyed while cap ships are still in hyperspace, then they get stuck in that space, their warp animation stops. They would be able to enter normal space again by selecting a new cyno to jump to. The duration of the new trip should be appropriately calculated to prevent short-cut cheating.
Furthermore, the cyno beacon itself would have a number at the end of its name. That number is a counter for ships currently in warp to the beacon - ships in hyperspace. ******************************************
These game features would have the following effects: *) increased travel time for caps - up to 4 minutes for maximum length jump. Whether or not cap is recharged during hyperspace trip is something to be decided, depending on possible exploits of insta-jump outs *) people have clear but rough idea on size of force that's coming thru the cyno - allows better strategy planning *) Encourages massive invasions to stage themselves near actual target to cut down on cyno travel time, which in turn improves all kinds of pvp and scouting opportunities. *) limits the effectiveness of random hot drops on roaming gangs due to increased cyno travel time, forces hot drops to be used more strategically than tactically. *) gives defender a chance to prevent cap fleet from entering by quickly destroying the cyno ship |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.18 20:44:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ephemeron They can cross the entire EVE map faster than the fastest interceptor.
This pretty much.^^
The largest and most powerful ships in the game can transverse from one side of the galaxy faster than an interceptor. Going from one side of the galaxy to the other with CAPITAL ships should take more than just a couple of hours.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.18 20:46:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Ephemeron I am concerned with how easy and secure cap ship traveling is.
There is virtually no way of stopping a cap fleet invasion - just the system cyno jammer, which isn't flexible solution. As cap ships never use gates, they don't face the common dangers of gate camp pvp or even roaming gangs. They can cross the entire EVE map faster than the fastest interceptor. There is no effective way to "scout" the cap fleet force ahead of time - since they can be positioned in systems far away, or just sitting docked waiting for cyno, just to be in action within 1 minute.
I have an idea to propose, tho it's not well fleshed out yet:
****************************************** Create new space similar to WH, call it hyperspace or whatever. Whenever a jump drive capable ship selects "jump to cyno" - it enters this new space and starts animation similar to "warp drive active". It would essentially warp somewhere in that hyperspace. The time duration of this hyper-warp would be directly proportional to the distance in light years for the cyno jump. Lets say that a near system jump would take 30-40 seconds, while the max jump range would take 3-4 minutes.
If the cyno generator is destroyed while cap ships are still in hyperspace, then they get stuck in that space, their warp animation stops. They would be able to enter normal space again by selecting a new cyno to jump to. The duration of the new trip should be appropriately calculated to prevent short-cut cheating.
Furthermore, the cyno beacon itself would have a number at the end of its name. That number is a counter for ships currently in warp to the beacon - ships in hyperspace. ******************************************
These game features would have the following effects: *) increased travel time for caps - up to 4 minutes for maximum length jump. Whether or not cap is recharged during hyperspace trip is something to be decided, depending on possible exploits of insta-jump outs *) people have clear but rough idea on size of force that's coming thru the cyno - allows better strategy planning *) Encourages massive invasions to stage themselves near actual target to cut down on cyno travel time, which in turn improves all kinds of pvp and scouting opportunities. *) limits the effectiveness of random hot drops on roaming gangs due to increased cyno travel time, forces hot drops to be used more strategically than tactically. *) gives defender a chance to prevent cap fleet from entering by quickly destroying the cyno ship
This would also affect titan bridging right? |
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.18 21:37:00 -
[38]
Quote: This would also affect titan bridging right?
I forgot about that. But clearly it cannot follow same game mechanic as I proposed.
I would propose that the cyno delay be implemented for onlining the titan bridge. So depending on distance, it takes different time amount for active titan bridge to be usable by other ships. Once it is usable, it would work just as it does now - insta jump.
The cyno beacon name should have some special symbol to identify that there's a titan bridge connecting to it. |
JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.03.18 22:04:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Straight Hustlin if we wanted to go assault the North, it would take 3 and a half days to get there.
It is kinda the point of this so you cant steamroll all over galaxy with no drawback .
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Meredith Midnight
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Posted - 2010.03.18 22:29:00 -
[40]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Straight Hustlin if we wanted to go assault the North, it would take 3 and a half days to get there.
It is kinda the point of this so you cant steamroll all over galaxy with no drawback .
Exactly, also, unless you have a huge excess of capital ships, it would be unwise to bring your entire cap fleet for the assault, which would leave no cap ships for defense. Basically it'd play out like an RTS game.
However, I propose an exception for POS cyno generators, those only consume fuel but do not create a timer (or at least.. an extremely shortened one 1 hour?). (for those who've played starcraft broodwar should be familiar with the concept) |
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NeoFusion
Caldari Freelancer Union Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2010.03.18 22:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ephemeron Create new space similar to WH, call it hyperspace or whatever. Whenever a jump drive capable ship selects "jump to cyno" - it enters this new space and starts animation similar to "warp drive active". It would essentially warp somewhere in that hyperspace. The time duration of this hyper-warp would be directly proportional to the distance in light years for the cyno jump. Lets say that a near system jump would take 30-40 seconds, while the max jump range would take 3-4 minutes.
If the cyno generator is destroyed while cap ships are still in hyperspace, then they get stuck in that space, their warp animation stops. They would be able to enter normal space again by selecting a new cyno to jump to. The duration of the new trip should be appropriately calculated to prevent short-cut cheating.
Furthermore, the cyno beacon itself would have a number at the end of its name. That number is a counter for ships currently in warp to the beacon - ships in hyperspace.
This is a good idea, has my thumbs up. Anything that removes the insta-wtfpwn of a jump-bridged gang or capital fleet is a welcome addition IMO. |
ABITA
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.18 23:55:00 -
[42]
Hell no. Seriously. No. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.19 04:42:00 -
[43]
Originally by: ABITA Hell no. Seriously. No.
Why don't you like the idea? Don't just say, "No!" and then that be it. You need to give a reason.
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Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.19 06:38:00 -
[44]
Your idea seems to have hole in it, as it gives advantage to bigger alliances over the smaller ones. As was pointed out what prevents well established alliance maintaining several dread fleets in positions where they cover their entire empire and then just jumpclone there grab the ships and go pewpew.
Dreads are relatively cheap compared to isk/h you can pump out from the new anomalies even if dread pilots want the personal ships. Limiting factor for well organized corporation is pilots who can drive one, as doing that reasonably takes fair amount of SP dedicated to it - and not that many are willing to do that for that boring ship.
On the other side without fixsing the 'problem' you see it just screws over the logistiks of dragging your own stuff from empire to your 0.0 base in carrier. If you happen for example to live 4 jumps deep in 0.0.
Thus - I am opposed to this idea. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.19 07:07:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Carniflex As was pointed out what prevents well established alliance maintaining several dread fleets in positions where they cover their entire empire and then just jumpclone there grab the ships and go pewpew.
Well established alliances should have an advantage over those who are not. If an alliance/power block has a large territory they should have their defences spread out to protect it. Such an idea is not crazy or radical.
This idea I have is to close the gap some between smaller entities and the huge ones. Not to make them equal to each other.
As far as the logistics goes, well, if you have more people then you have more people to do logistics. So what is the problem?
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.03.19 10:04:00 -
[46]
Originally by: darius mclever i am pretty sure that the result will be that the big alliances will have multiple alliance/corp cap fleets and they just pod express between the different cap fleets. iirc PL had like 3-4 dread fleets ready to go. i am sure the other big boys do aswell and if they dont have them already, they will once that proposal goes life. so in the end you punish the small guys who cant afford that.
This. Having a bunch of dread fleets spread around 0.0 npc stations isn't even an issue for the big alliances. Especially now that insured caps barely cost more than hacs..Then you just clone jump/pod express and proceed to grape anything, and probably even save some on fuel.
So yeah, all this would to is tax the small guys/solo players, while large/rich alliances wouldn't even care. |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.19 10:36:00 -
[47]
Edited by: darius mclever on 19/03/2010 10:49:59
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Originally by: darius mclever i am pretty sure that the result will be that the big alliances will have multiple alliance/corp cap fleets and they just pod express between the different cap fleets. iirc PL had like 3-4 dread fleets ready to go. i am sure the other big boys do aswell and if they dont have them already, they will once that proposal goes life. so in the end you punish the small guys who cant afford that.
This. Having a bunch of dread fleets spread around 0.0 npc stations isn't even an issue for the big alliances. Especially now that insured caps barely cost more than hacs..Then you just clone jump/pod express and proceed to grape anything, and probably even save some on fuel.
So yeah, all this would to is tax the small guys/solo players, while large/rich alliances wouldn't even care.
how many dread fleets PL got left?:) |
Destruction Theory
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Posted - 2010.03.19 10:43:00 -
[48]
I want to build on an idea which someone has previously mentioned in this thread. How about when you create a cyno, you have to choose the strength of it, and this determines how close to the beacons cap ships go to. Furthermore, this could affect the accuracy of the jumps even more so as the jump distance gets greater. As a last deterance to not thining before jumping, perhaps in each jump, you have to go through wormholespace.
Say,for every capital ship you jump to the same cyno, the chances of sleeper hot dropping you while in the wormhlole increases. The classs of wormhole you travel through depends on rhe strength of the cyno. Thoughts?
Other Thought: Double the jump range to make up for having to transverse through WH space. |
HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.19 10:44:00 -
[49]
cut the insurance payout on capitals by 30% taht might slow em down |
rubico1337
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.19 11:14:00 -
[50]
i support this Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. |
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Trygonus
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Posted - 2010.03.19 19:06:00 -
[51]
Me and my friends have thought about going into 0.0 but we always knew that our POS would just get seiged by hundreds of dreads because of the power blocks. This change would make them think twice about that I think.
I would like to see this if CCP will put this in the game. I know a lot of people who would venture into 0.0 then.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.03.27 17:56:00 -
[52]
There any more constructive feedback on this?
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Azirapheal
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.03.27 18:15:00 -
[53]
i actually thoroughly support the idea of a spool up, forcing them to stay comitted for at least 5 minutes. but then ive been watching alot of battlestar galactica lately.
i would also very much like to see cyno generation removed. the sole reason i do not fly capital ships is because i refuse to train my own alt... and even then i might as well just buy 5 hacs for the same price and take the gates.
howabouts
Input Co-ordinates - player selects a system + planet to cyno to (to avoid insta stationdocks) Spool Up - 70% cap then activates a timer (with big abort button) after 3-5 minutes player clicks JUMP JUMP and at that precise point in time a cyno beacon appears lit up on the local overview.
this works well in several ways
1. it makes attacking easier 2. it can make defendinga nightmare 3. defending alliances will need to have multiple smaller fleets in systems to rush to these cynopoints to counter a threat 4 capitals are slower (spool time) must be comitted and wtih a good fc it opens up alot more strategy than merely throwing up cynojammers / slaying every neutral in sight
throw that lot in and force me to committ and hell, ill start training for a capital immediately.
Originally by: Azirapheal i never ever thought id live to see the day.... that titans were nerfed for being FOTM HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist SoonÖ
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The Grouch
FinFleet IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.27 19:17:00 -
[54]
No, this is not a good idea.
Capital ships are slow, cumbersome, expensive to buy, and expensive to operate. They have plenty of monetary drawbacks that keep the average eve player away and the experienced player wary of them. They also require a second account for scouting/cyno, another monetary drawback. Lastly, that scout we just mentioned is going to be sitting on a megaphone screaming "HEY LOOK AT ME!! I'M STUCK IN ONE PLACE FOR TEN MINUTES! WARP TO ME AT NO HASSLE TO YOURSELF!". Couple that with 48 second alignments and you're looking at some serious risk, no matter where you decide to light that cyno.
So, with all that set aside, you still want to limit how many jumps one can make in a day, OR give intricate instructions/timers for jumps to be completed, making it even harder for the player to accomplish an objective using such a vehicle.
I think you're asking too much. You still can't jump without fuel, and if I recall, your fuel bay gives you about enough fuel to make 2-3 jumps, if you've got the skillz! That being said, without great logistics you stand a good chance of getting stuck if you jump beyond the point of no return (in terms of your fuel). I'll be honest, I can see why you want something like this, but I don't think this is the way to go. Take cynos off overview, however, and people might consider a few of your options.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.03.28 14:23:00 -
[55]
Originally by: The Grouch No, this is not a good idea...
The biggest and most powerful ships in the game are able to travel across the galaxy the fastest.
This is a fact. And don't give me the "Oh its a nightmare to setup logistics to do that though." argument because it really is no where as bad as people make it sound. Getting fuel and cynos in place is all too easy. I am not trying to suggest a change to nerf them into oblivion. I am simply wanting a change to happen to make them see more balanced. Of course I am open to more suggestions.
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.03.28 14:33:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Marlona Sky Of course I am open to more suggestions.
To be fair, you don't seem open to much anything aside from praise for your idea. I personally agree with the posters in here who state that such restrictions would only hurt the smaller alliances who lack the the numbers and/or logistical backbone to metagame their way around the restrictions. How difficult it can be to make an attack is something that can be tweaked, but I fail to see how a blanket restriction does much but make the game more static ...
@Trygonus: To be honest, if the big power blocks want your POS dead and they can't put dreads on it, they'll put BS and logis on it and kill it anyways.
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Trygonus
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Posted - 2010.03.29 03:41:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin @Trygonus: To be honest, if the big power blocks want your POS dead and they can't put dreads on it, they'll put BS and logis on it and kill it anyways.
I would much rather defend a pos against bs's blob than a dread blob. You can't argue against that. Bottom line is it is insanely too hard for an alliance to get into 0.0 without becoming part of a nap train. You can't argue against that either.
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Larinioides cornutus
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Posted - 2010.03.29 12:25:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 29/03/2010 12:32:00 Suggestion: You align to the opposite of current direction and speed up to 75% before jumping, similar to normal warp align. If you cancel the jump, you need to align and speed up again.
Edited suggestion: Require stargete or bridging capable facilities on grid to cyno (pos/titan) as source. All ships will jump to 0m of said source. When there are multiple sources on grid, ships will jump onto the closest one to the cyno. In case the source is no longer available, jump attemps will fail. You can cyno where the avaialble source is hostile. Ships will jump in outside of shield of the pos where's it's closest to the cyno if a hostile one's used.
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.03.29 13:02:00 -
[59]
Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 19/03/2010 10:49:59
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Originally by: darius mclever i am pretty sure that the result will be that the big alliances will have multiple alliance/corp cap fleets and they just pod express between the different cap fleets. iirc PL had like 3-4 dread fleets ready to go. i am sure the other big boys do aswell and if they dont have them already, they will once that proposal goes life. so in the end you punish the small guys who cant afford that.
This. Having a bunch of dread fleets spread around 0.0 npc stations isn't even an issue for the big alliances. Especially now that insured caps barely cost more than hacs..Then you just clone jump/pod express and proceed to grape anything, and probably even save some on fuel.
So yeah, all this would to is tax the small guys/solo players, while large/rich alliances wouldn't even care.
how many dread fleets PL got left?:)
I'm not sure, but I think we've managed to suicide them all at one point. ---
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Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2010.03.29 15:06:00 -
[60]
I've been thinking about this and really I do see some very serious merits of this, it greatly decreases the ability of alliances to band together across vast reaches of space in one gigantic push if they also have any wish to defend the territory they already control. There are obviously ways around it caching the capital then either jump clones, pod jumping, black ops which would give them a purpose, or just having multiple capital ship alts. Still I believe this is on a degree of the correct track if a an alliance shouldn't be able to attack with every capital far from home then just turn them around and fight back in their turf almost immediately that means no alliance that can field less than the number of capitals than an alliance that can field more will ever win even if they control a single system and the other control. Of course luck and the skill of an FC can make a difference but just math wise victory is impossible.
What might be more interesting would be if the amount of fuel needed per jump was increased with each jump so to cross the eve galaxy in a single day it would be expensive and require an organized logistical fleet. It would allow long range attacks but would discourage them. Of course this does not solve any of the issues that can be used to get around the already proposed method.
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