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darius mclever	Posted - 2010.03.19 13:41:00 - [31] Originally by: RabbitofDoom Originally by: Mark Hadden Edited by: Mark Hadden on 19/03/2010 12:24:11 the requests for a cloak nerf are always from carebears, who cant rat because of a cloaker afking in their holy system. cloaked afking is a good thing to catch ratters by their balls, who try to get rid of you by afking in their absolutely safe POS bubble. The main issue is not with catching its with inability to do anything about that because there is no VIABLE counter. There are several potetnial ways to deal with cloakies like RFforces, baits, perma gatecamps but not even single one that would be viable for a computer game. Because they would require a large group of peoples mantaining a permament presence in a system doing something very boring and nothing else otherwise they might not be able to respond on time. Second thing is that afk cloaking if properly used can have a very heavy impact on any almost any sov holding alliance excluding largest sov holders. Cuple of afk covert ops with cynos in main cerebearing systems, recon group in jump range and an alt corp wardecing is all you need to make 1000+ memmbers alliances just sting not doing much in terms of earning money. Every single account member in that alliance or one that dont have for example noob corp alt in hisec runing l4 will have their income seriously affected. I belive that like 10 dedicated peoples with like 50 accounts can run such op for as long as they would like to causing massive damage in terms of not earned isk. see post 13 in this thread. there are very easy ways to counter them. but it requires teamwork and not just "doing your thing solo". but of course coming on the forum and complaining is much easier than fighting.
RabbitofDoom	Posted - 2010.03.19 14:05:00 - [32] Edited by: RabbitofDoom on 19/03/2010 14:10:29 You are proposing same thing i mentioned and what you dont get is that while its "easy" its not VIABLE. You will need to do it 24/7 to be effcient just for a single guy siting there with eve online turned on doing something else. In same time you cant do that because you must be ready when he decides to strike. You can run something like that in averange alliance for like 48h max then peoples would get bored. I have a little bit of experience with similiar stuff in real life and trust me its boring like hell waiting day after day hour after hour for someone that might jump the fence or might not. A last i am getting payed for that cant say same thing about doing that in some computer game i play for fun. Second thing is that hiting hard enough might only work on some peoples that have no other reason to do it than to get kills or grief. You cant hit hard enough in condition when its done on some purpose that would justify a recon lose once in a while.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.03.19 14:38:00 - [33] Originally by: RabbitofDoom Edited by: RabbitofDoom on 19/03/2010 14:10:29 You are proposing same thing i mentioned and what you dont get is that while its "easy" its not VIABLE. You will need to do it 24/7 to be effcient just for a single guy siting there with eve online turned on doing something else. In same time you cant do that because you must be ready when he decides to strike. You can run something like that in averange alliance for like 48h max then peoples would get bored. I have a little bit of experience with similiar stuff in real life and trust me its boring like hell waiting day after day hour after hour for someone that might jump the fence or might not. A last i am getting payed for that cant say same thing about doing that in some computer game i play for fun. Second thing is that hiting hard enough might only work on some peoples that have no other reason to do it than to get kills or grief. You cant hit hard enough in condition when its done on some purpose that would justify a recon lose once in a while. there is a small difference between your idea and Misanthra: your idea is "waiting in station until he acts, so you can react" her idea: do you think but fit your ship so you can pvp or GTFO, then do you thing. rat in teams of 2-3, mine with guards. her idea allows you to use the system, your idea brings it to a standstill. and yes this really works.
RabbitofDoom	Posted - 2010.03.19 14:42:00 - [34] Yes that works more or less still its a limited solution to a problem.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.03.19 14:47:00 - [35] Originally by: RabbitofDoom Yes that works more or less still its a limited solution to a problem. why limited? if you want highsec, go life in highsec. seriously. if you hit the cloakies one or two times too often they move on and hit the softer targets elsewhere. but atm it seems you are a soft target yourself.
Honoria Vaas	Posted - 2010.03.20 06:49:00 - [36] Originally by: Ashalin Tora I disagree with you Roonia. I believe this is an intended edge over others while you're using a cloaking device. Im not saying people should not have an edge with the cloak...just take away the ability to abuse it. Being afk for hours on end while still affecting the game.
RabbitofDoom	Posted - 2010.03.20 10:59:00 - [37] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: RabbitofDoom Yes that works more or less still its a limited solution to a problem. why limited? if you want highsec, go life in highsec. seriously. if you hit the cloakies one or two times too often they move on and hit the softer targets elsewhere. but atm it seems you are a soft target yourself. I am afraid you are barking at the wrong tree. :D I dont have problems with afk cloakies there are ways to avoid them usualy but i dont mind to have a tool to deal with them that doesnt rely on luck and waiting and that can be used when you are not playing in your alliance/corp tz to rat etc. in a fleet.
Mark Hadden Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke	Posted - 2010.03.20 11:01:00 - [38] Edited by: Mark Hadden on 20/03/2010 11:03:53 if there would be a tool against cloakies, they would lose one of their purposes locking down systems full of noobs and carebears and lurking for expensive kills (jump freighter etc.) The only idea I would appreciate for a cloak change is this one: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1287543
Cedims	Posted - 2010.03.23 04:23:00 - [39] Originally by: darius mclever i give you a much simpler solution to the whole problem: make all local in 0.0 like wh space. THIS! Again, like darius pointed out, the problem is not with the cloak, but the fact that you "magically" know that they are there, so this is very much the answer to your paranoia, Rooni...
Grarr Dexx Amarr GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.03.29 23:11:00 - [40] Originally by: Vert Dalm cloaking should consume some kind of fuel (like O2) at a very slow rate to require the cloaker at SOME point to leave the system and refuel. It does not have to be a quick burn, it does not have to be expensive, but AFKing 23/7 seems silly. I'm ok with anticloak scanning of some kind, but don't think its critical. Congratulations, now absolutely nobody will fly the Pilgrim. ___
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Swag Co.	Posted - 2010.03.29 23:37:00 - [41] Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 29/03/2010 23:39:39 make 0.0 like WH space, no local intel -This. Kind of. If you have sov in a system you should be able to get the information that comes through the gate. at least the pilots name. In non-sov system, no info, fine. Cloaking in a system for weeks on end is all fine and good, I've got no problem with it. It's a viable form of psych-warfare. BUT, you should actually have to be at your machine to accomplish it, so... why not just give cloaks a cycle time, and not let them auto-cycle? 5 minutes, 10 minutes? whatever arbitrary number suits the situation so the cloakers have to be active at their computer or they risk uncloaking and getting scanned.. Simple solution. Allows the same mechanics of warfare, and dissuades AFK play. -Zoltar
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.03.29 23:46:00 - [42] Originally by: Zoltar Torzoid Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 29/03/2010 23:39:39 make 0.0 like WH space, no local intel -This. Kind of. If you have sov in a system you should be able to get the information that comes through the gate. at least the pilots name. In non-sov system, no info, fine. Cloaking in a system for weeks on end is all fine and good, I've got no problem with it. It's a viable form of psych-warfare. BUT, you should actually have to be at your machine to accomplish it, so... why not just give cloaks a cycle time, and not let them auto-cycle? 5 minutes, 10 minutes? whatever arbitrary number suits the situation so the cloakers have to be active at their computer or they risk uncloaking and getting scanned.. Simple solution. Allows the same mechanics of warfare, and dissuades AFK play. -Zoltar you could have even tried to search for that. it was discussed in this or one of the other threads. cycle time on cloak would just break covert combat. how are you supposed to sit on a gate in a recon and watch the enemy gate camp if you know you will decloak every 5minutes? or even 1h? murphy says that the cloak will always run out in the worst moment and you will die and get podded with your +5 clone.
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Swag Co.	Posted - 2010.03.29 23:55:00 - [43] Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 29/03/2010 23:56:40 they implemented these nice little indicators that tell you "about" when a module is about to finish it's cycle.. you could just warp away.. or make sure you are far enough away from any threat to get re-cloaked in a reasonable amount of time. The only reason you should ever be popped is if you simply weren't paying attention, or you were afk, or the system was broken-lagged because there's more than 20 or so people in it. . I could have been a ** about it and suggested like a 10 second cooldown on the cloak to go with the cycle time.. but that's overkill imo. CCP discourages AFK play as best as they can in every other facet of the game, why it's such a stretch that you should have to be at your computer to sit in a system cloaked is beyond me. I'm not proposing a game-breaking nerf, and I know it's been discussed before. The only thing that can force you to die from failed cloaking that is actually out of your hands is server-side issues. You shouldn't be able to be 100% safe in space in 0.0 at ANY time. but most especially while you are asleep, or rubbing one off to some horse **.. come on.. stop crying about how it makes life harder for you to have to actually be paying attention to the computer game you are playing. BTW, I fly bombers and covops, I've scouted for fleets, I fully understand the negative impact this simple change could cause, and I fully believe it would still be for the best. Best of all, it's something that can be programmed really easily... -Zoltar
JGR Guinevere Caldari PWNED Factor	Posted - 2010.03.30 00:03:00 - [44] One thing I think you fail to realize is there are plenty of reasons to stay cloaked in a system for days at a time and be at your keyboard. The only thing I think that could work as far as this idea goes is if eve keeps track of the players mouse movement over time. If the mouse hasn't moved for a hour then your 10 minute warning goes off. If you still don't move your mouse then you get logged off the game. Only problem is that would affect all players in all parts of eve. Not just cloaked people. Additionally, what would prevent people from simulating mouse movements to circumvent the whole thing. Same could be said for your idea. It would be trivial to create a macro to circumvent it.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.03.30 00:05:00 - [45] Originally by: Zoltar Torzoid Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 29/03/2010 23:56:40 they implemented these nice little indicators that tell you "about" when a module is about to finish it's cycle.. you could just warp away.. or make sure you are far enough away from any threat to get re-cloaked in a reasonable amount of time. The only reason you should ever be popped is if you simply weren't paying attention, or you were afk, or the system was broken-lagged because there's more than 20 or so people in it. . I could have been a ** about it and suggested like a 10 second cooldown on the cloak to go with the cycle time.. but that's overkill imo. CCP discourages AFK play as best as they can in every other facet of the game, why it's such a stretch that you should have to be at your computer to sit in a system cloaked is beyond me. I'm not proposing a game-breaking nerf, and I know it's been discussed before. The only thing that can force you to die from failed cloaking that is actually out of your hands is server-side issues. You shouldn't be able to be 100% safe in space in 0.0 at ANY time. but most especially while you are asleep, or rubbing one off to some horse *.. come on.. stop crying about how it makes life harder for you to have to actually be paying attention to the computer game you are playing. BTW, I fly bombers and covops, I've scouted for fleets, I fully understand the negative impact this simple change could cause, and I fully believe it would still be for the best. Best of all, it's something that can be programmed really easily... -Zoltar ok ... i am in my pilgrim ... i slowboat to the ratter i just found in a belt. i am 25k from him (i fit a warp scramlber) and my cycle timer goes off. ratter warps out. fun? the AFK cloaker is not* the problem. the problem is in your head. if the lone cloaker can shut down your system, maybe this will help you: Originally by: Misanthra There are solutions to afk cloakies. Communication and coordination is one. System doesn't have to shut down. If in say your ratting system, well, no one rats alone. First person jumped has to do the most thing in the world....say help help I am being attacked. Most cloakies don't have a drake like tank (have not seen black op bs's doing solo work anyway....usually sb's/recons) and even 3 pve ships ganged up got a decent chance to pop one (or at the minimum will give them seoncd thoughts about being there). Just make sure your ratters got tank to stand a little pvp is all. Option 2...take a break from carebearism and form a bait gang. Heres how it works, bait goes to the belt like an unsuspecting ratter and rats. Other side of a gate, several of his friends are on standby. Afk cloaky hopefully takes the bate, wonders why the ratter is suddenly pointed/scramming him and goes ohh crap when he is jumped. Heres the deal with cloakies....they suck until you fly one lol. Get out your systems and knee deep into enemy territory, trust me you'll appreciate the cloak ability more. Cloakies are special purpose ships, this is their purpose. Kind of pointless to have them if they lose cloak in enemy systems lol.
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Swag Co.	Posted - 2010.03.30 00:06:00 - [46] I know people can create macros to auto-cycle their cloaks if this was put in. I said it dissuades AFK play, I didn't say it stopped it. At least then if someone is in your system for 2 weeks straight, 23/7, you have grounds to report them for macroing.. -Zoltar
Grarr Dexx Amarr GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.03.30 00:29:00 - [47] I knew I should have just let the thread die a peaceful death Don't fix what isn't broken. What IS broken is the local channel providing perfect intel. ___
GavinGoodrich Ungrouped Guns Don't Panic.	Posted - 2010.03.30 00:34:00 - [48] Edited by: GavinGoodrich on 30/03/2010 00:34:53 Everybody in this thread that suggested baiting out said perpetrator, I lubs you. It works...not every time...but two can play the cloaky game. If you're defending your own space...get some buds in position...act like you would normally act...hopefully it gets timed right. What the previous posters said about a single recon/covops cloaker is true. It's just one ship. If you have buds, and a solid plan/ships set up for said plan... ...and pray they don't covert cyno in buddies. But then again...you can do the same thing edit some sort of sov mechanic that allows for decloaking people for a VERY short time would be nice. There's the system scanning array. Maybe something similar, and simple, that doesn't require rewriting the whole codebase? \o
0n 1	Posted - 2010.03.30 01:09:00 - [49] Originally by: GavinGoodrich Edited by: GavinGoodrich on 30/03/2010 00:34:53 Everybody in this thread that suggested baiting out said perpetrator, I lubs you. It works...not every time...but two can play the cloaky game. If you're defending your own space...get some buds in position...act like you would normally act...hopefully it gets timed right. What the previous posters said about a single recon/covops cloaker is true. It's just one ship. If you have buds, and a solid plan/ships set up for said plan... ...and pray they don't covert cyno in buddies. But then again...you can do the same thing edit some sort of sov mechanic that allows for decloaking people for a VERY short time would be nice. There's the system scanning array. Maybe something similar, and simple, that doesn't require rewriting the whole codebase? Your post was fine, right up until the edit.
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Swag Co.	Posted - 2010.03.30 01:21:00 - [50] you can't bait someone that's not at their computer. You also have no way of knowing whether they are or they aren't unless they are actively attacking someone or making fools of themselves in local. So they can AFK cloak for days, and you have to keep your little bait gang active for the same amount of time. That is, in essence affecting the game play of others by not being there. I'm all for baiting and killing them, the mechanic is still broken as-is. Just want them to have to be at their computer to do it. Please try again. -Zoltar
Grarr Dexx Amarr GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.03.30 01:30:00 - [51] They are succeeding at what they're doing because they're affecting you. Don't let them affect you and they will be there for no reason. If you don't have the friends to back you up if things go south, you don't deserve to be there. ___
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Swag Co.	Posted - 2010.03.30 01:41:00 - [52] heh, if you put a bait gang together to bait someone that's gonna be afk for the next 8 hours, how are they not adversely affecting game play by sleeping, or doing whatever they are doing? Also, if you've taken the time to put said bait fleet together, then it stands to reason you DO have the friends to support you... I'm not proposing that they have to stop cloaking in systems. I didn't even give a set time for the cycle, I believe I said, "whatever arbitrary number works.." I'm just saying that if you are going to be in space, in you r ship, in 0.0, you shouldn't be immune to consequences while you are NOT at your computer.
Mimiru Minahiro	Posted - 2010.03.30 03:13:00 - [53] Originally by: Zoltar Torzoid [That doesn't make it right for someone to be able to affect game play for other people in that manner while NOT AT THEIR COMPUTER. that's the whole point. It's got nothing to do with their lethality, or lack-thereof.... I don't like that hey can do it while they are sleep, or not at home.. All I'm saying is that they should have to be at their machine, giving it input. -Zoltar I wholeheartedly agree with this. TO be logically consistant i suggest that if such an idea as Zoltar's is implamented it should be global in effect. What i mean to say is that contracts, buy/sell orders, and production should fall under the same rules. Additionally, there should be something in place that kicks you from stations if you are not giving inputs into the game... after 5min in space with no input you should be logged off (take THAT AFK miners). If you are AFK you should not be able to have any effect on the game!!!!!111oneoneeleventyone But seriously... cloaks are fine. If the guy is AFk then he wont be popping ships in your mining op anyway. If he is popping your ships then he isnt afk. The thing you hate (the afk part)is not a threat to you. And when you are truely threatened it has nothing to do with the thing you hate. Your emotional state (your fear of being popped) is not controlable by anyone but yourself.
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.03.30 04:51:00 - [54] Think the haterz just need to try this out, its actually quite fun to do. Beats the hell out of gate camping or ship spinning if nothing to do and tired of ratting lol. Or have kids...I put normal cloaks on ships on non-fleet ops sometimes if I get the spidey sense the kid may not sleep his normal amount. Do the good dad bit and take care of kid, live longer knee deep behind enemy lines without logging off games and prevent hostiles from making money....win win win situation.
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Swag Co.	Posted - 2010.03.30 05:36:00 - [55] Quote: I wholeheartedly agree with this. TO be logically consistant i suggest that if such an idea as Zoltar's is implamented it should be global in effect. What i mean to say is that contracts, buy/sell orders, and production should fall under the same rules. Additionally, there should be something in place that kicks you from stations if you are not giving inputs into the game... after 5min in space with no input you should be logged off (take THAT AFK miners). If you are AFK you should not be able to have any effect on the game!!!!!111oneoneeleventyone But seriously... cloaks are fine. If the guy is AFk then he wont be popping ships in your mining op anyway. If he is popping your ships then he isnt afk. The thing you hate (the afk part)is not a threat to you. And when you are truely threatened it has nothing to do with the thing you hate. Your emotional state (your fear of being popped) is not controlable by anyone but yourself. That's nice. Thank you for "wholeheartedly" agreeing with me. Also, thank you for making your inept sarcasm and overreaction skills so painfully clear. Contracts, market orders, and production are all simply menu commands and timers. there is no DIRECT affect on the gameplay of other individuals in an area aside from .01 isk wars; which, btw, you have to do manually, or cheat and let a bot manage. Sitting in station doing absolutely nothing has zero effect on anyone, anywhere. It's not until you undock from said station that you are affecting anything. Once undocked, you shouldn't be allowed to be an absentee player. There's 1 mod you can equip to your ship that renders you 100% immune to any kind of consequences for an indefinite amount of time. We call it the cloak. If you are IN SPACE you should be vulnerable in some way. If this is not the best way, fine, propose a better way. Until then, please keep destructive criticism to yourself. I believe that's actually in the rules for this forum, not that it'll ever be enforced. The whole afk-kick-timer isn't such a bad idea tbh. I could see it being a problem with mission runners, but wait... they should be watching their screen too, so screw em'. It would save some of the precious bandwidth on the nodes. Hell, Jita alone would probably drop in population by 20-30%. I'm gonna leave the second part of your response alone because I have to assume at this point you're nothing but a troll and this is as far as I'm willing to bend to your ridiculous sense of reality. -Zoltar
Mimiru Minahiro	Posted - 2010.03.30 06:13:00 - [56] Originally by: Zoltar Torzoid 1)Contracts, market orders, and production are all simply menu commands and timers. there is 2)no DIRECT affect on the gameplay of other individuals in an area aside from .01 isk wars; which, btw, you have to do manually, or cheat and let a bot manage. 3)Sitting in station doing absolutely nothing has zero effect on anyone, anywhere. It's not until you undock from said station that you are affecting anything. Once undocked, you shouldn't be allowed to be an absentee player. 4)There's 1 mod you can equip to your ship that renders you 100% immune to any kind of consequences for an indefinite amount of time. We call it the cloak..... I took the liberty of numbering your points for the sake of clarity. In response: 1)Cloaking is simply button pushing and timers. 2)There is no DIRECT affect of being afk cloaked. 3)Sitting in space cloaked and doing absolutely nothing has zero effect on anyone,anywhere. 4) And said module has a MAJOR drawback- to do anything except fly around you have to drop your protective barrier and it comes with the additional disadvantages of negatives to certain attributes of your ship. And ignoring the last part of my post due to me being a "troll" is a logical fallacy. Please either give logical objections and argumentation, or at least admit that you do not have such things at this time and must consider my statement further before posting. If you want a reasonable and rational response from people it is usually best to avoid rhetorical devices.
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Swag Co.	Posted - 2010.03.30 06:35:00 - [57] Quote: I took the liberty of numbering your points for the sake of clarity. In response: 1)Cloaking is simply button pushing and timers. 2)There is no DIRECT affect of being afk cloaked. 3)Sitting in space cloaked and doing absolutely nothing has zero effect on anyone,anywhere. 4) And said module has a MAJOR drawback- to do anything except fly around you have to drop your protective barrier and it comes with the additional disadvantages of negatives to certain attributes of your ship. And ignoring the last part of my post due to me being a "troll" is a logical fallacy. Please either give logical objections and argumentation, or at least admit that you do not have such things at this time and must consider my statement further before posting. If you want a reasonable and rational response from people it is usually best to avoid rhetorical devices. Smile 1: Cloaking IS simply a button push, edit: with NO timer. 2: There is no DIRECT effect of being afk cloaked. - It's called psychological warfare. If there were no direct effect, then we wouldn't be having this little debate now because people simple wouldn't do it. 3: Read above. 4: Yes, it slows your lock time. yes it's got other drawbacks. Yes it effectively makes you invincible. rest: Fine. Quote: If the guy is AFk then he wont be popping ships in your mining op anyway. - you have no way to know that he's AFK, and since he's NOT docked, you have to proceed under the assumption that he is in fact, NOT afk and treat him as a potential threat. Otherwise, you end up dead when he decides to not be AFK anymore. Quote: If he is popping your ships then he isnt afk. - Agreed, but you have no way of knowing that until he's popping said ship. You still have to assume he's not afk. Quote: The thing you hate (the afk part)is not a threat to you. And when you are truely threatened it has nothing to do with the thing you hate. - I don't hate it. I simply think it's a broken mechanic that should be fixed, and this is my solution. If it's a bad solution, whatever, i'm fine with that. think of a better one. Quote: Your emotional state (your fear of being popped) is not controlable by anyone but yourself. - I believe I've mentioned once already in this thread that these guys don't bother me at all. If I'm in a system to make money, I watch my scanner for probes, I don't rat in belts, and I damned sure don't mine, Christ that's some boring stuff..
Dacryphile	Posted - 2010.03.30 06:51:00 - [58] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Originally by: darius mclever i give you a much simpler solution to the whole problem: make all local in 0.0 like wh space. This this Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Swag Co.	Posted - 2010.03.30 07:13:00 - [59] I agree with that. but you're going to have alliance brass complaining that they own their systems and the gates should tell them who comes through at the very least (since you can't do anything else with gates) Then you have the same problem with afk cloaking. heh Wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to make 0.0 local delayed mode, and it would remove the need to afk cloak.
Mimiru Minahiro	Posted - 2010.03.30 07:43:00 - [60] Edited by: Mimiru Minahiro on 30/03/2010 07:47:03 Originally by: Zoltar Torzoid Stuff[/quote 1) there is a timer...its called downtime. This timer is, in fact, shorter than market orders. 2) You cannot create nor destroy nor transfer (via state changes) any assets while cloaked. Therefore you dont have a direct effect on EVE. Market orders and production DO accomplish these things and you dont even have to be logged in. 3)I will address this more under the topic of fear 4)I agree that cloaking makes you "invincible". The cost of being "invincible" is that you cannot directly effect eve (see 2)whilst cloaked. If you decide to effect eve then you must decloak which not only nets in a loss of invincibility but ALSO penalizes things like speed, locking times, and (sometimes) gank/tank. I see this as balanced. On Fear (and #3) You claim (if i am reading things right) that cloaking is broken because it allows a person to engage in psychological warfare while being invincible. However, if people did not fear losing thier ship to said enemy, his being cloaked would be irrelavent. If they dont fear the destruction of thier ship he could be parked in plain site and they would not feel compeled to avoid doing what they were planning on doing (ratting,mission running, plexing,etc); therefore the only way for the enemy to have an "effect" or to engage in "psychlogical warfare" requires the enemy to cause an emotional state (fear). This is not possible however in my view. If someone is scared, excited, angry, whatever...it is a result of thier own beleif structures not some crazy voodoo like "thing" caused by others. Perhaps we have differing ideas about who is ultimately responsible for our own mental and emotional states however, in which case it is pointless to discuss. I will never be convinced that my emotions can be caused by someone else, and you will never be convinced that you have ultimate responsibilty for them.

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