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Roonia
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Posted - 2010.03.17 18:28:00 -
[1]
I know that a lot of you will object to this but IMHO cloaking balance is fubar in relation to the other factors in the game. Here are the issues I have with cloaking.
SHIP SIZE VS CLOAK SIZE
Same problem as rigs before they got fixed. Why should my frigate cloak be able to cloak a carrier without any kind of penalty? I think different size cloaks need to be available. The problem is pretty self explanatory. Different cloaks for different folks. A lot of people objected to different size rigs saying "OH YOU WANT THE GAME TO BE TOO EASY!!"...um no...it just makes sense. Such replies will not warrant an answer.
REMAINING CLOAKED FOREVER
The ability of ships to remain cloaked forever has been abused to hell and back. I do not think it is fair in any way shape or form for 1 player to be able to disrupt the activity of an entire system (null sec) by remaining there AFK for days on end cloaked in his ship. All this, while there is NO WAY to detect/flush him out. Ive seen cloaked ships remain in a aystem for literally 2 weeks non stop. Some may argue that "Yah well, you can prevent them from jumping in the system to begin with." Theoretically yes, you can by gate camping 24/7. Even if you could do that, which i doubt its possible for even the biggest alliances, even then its not sure that you will prevent this.
Most people have a hard time separating the fact that they like doing something from the fact that this thing is out of balance with the rest of the player community and is a NUFUN factor.
I have no problem with fighting wars of attrition lurking around in a system hoping for a break to covert cyno a fleet of hulks or getting the drop on a Jump Freighter....but i do not think it is in any way fair to be able to do this for weeks on end without anyone being able to do anything about it. And you can simply bring mining to a halt in that system forever without even being at your computer. Basically, you can NEVER EVER get me out unless i get bored. This is right up there with giving a 1 hour minimum time to change market orders and allowing autopilot to warp to zero.
This needs to be changed in some way to make both the cloaky and the victim happy and have a balance of the two. Some people may compare this to RL spies or Stealth aircraft...its nothing like this. Nothing can stay hidden forever if someone knows you are there. Its only a matter of time before you die. Not in EVE, there you have the ability to grief people indefinitely with the way this is set up.
By the way, the issue i mention, should be an issue for NULL SEC SOV SYSTEMS ONLY!!! Not for Null Sec No sov, high sec or low sec.
PROPOSED SOLUTIONS TO THIS
Take away the ability of COV OPS ships to remain cloaked / hidden forever in systems with SOV. Technically speaking, the deeper in enemy territory you are the harder it should be to remain hidden forever. This "depth" version should be determined by in game mechanism called "Security". This Security rating of a null sec system should be achieved through a combination of factors, which would include the avg amount of active combat ships in the system over hours, the amount of rats killed, avg player numbers in that system, military rating, industry rating, strategic rating and upgrades. It makes sense that the more important a system is to someone the harder it will be for you to infiltrate it. Also it should be VERY HARD AND VERY EXPENSIVE for a corp/alliance to render a system nearly impregnable to covert ops. It would be the RL equivalent of keeping a city totally secure, nobody in and nobody out without permission.
How this would be enforced and the security rating effects on cov ops ships its debatable but this is what I propose. Each security rating, level 1,2,3,4,6...has an effect on how well the cloak works and for how long you can remain cloaked and undetected. Each security rating allows the installation of security upgrade. [b]NextP
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr
GK inc.
Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.03.17 18:42:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 17/03/2010 18:42:39
How about... no. I don't think you get the point of 'covert ops'.
Also, not being able to do **** about it? How about you just don't do stupid **** when there's someone in local?
___
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Izztyrr Maemtor
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.03.17 18:42:00 -
[3]
Oh look, another cloaking whine. Has it been 15 minutes since the last one?
Cloaking is working as intended. Period.
 Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Spurty
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 18:43:00 -
[4]
what they mean is, they don't want your idea screwing with them ratting thanks!
love the cloaky ravens of belt hugging
Originally by: Hurley
I WAS NOT QUITTING SoT AND WAS NOT THINKING ABOUT JOINING IT. PL/SoT MADE A MISTAKE AND ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT OR FIX IT.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.17 18:58:00 -
[5]
cloaking is not the problem. the problems are:
- you see cloaked people in local and start caring about them. hence we refer to you as carebear from now on. you will laugh people are less scared about cloaked people in their local when they are in wormhole space. why? because they cant see them!
- so your system comes to a standstill because there is one cloaked guy in local. that just means two things:
a) you lack the balls/backbone to bait them
b) you havent hit the cloaker/hot dropper hard enough so that they move to your neighbors. (yes this really works)
the best thing about this is ... everytime we get an cloak whine thread we just know where to move to, because you gave us the information that you are a weak target. profit!
- cloaker are already penalized enough. penalties differ by ship type/cloak type but in general can be summarized as:
- sensor recalibration delay
- speed penalty under cloak
- scan resolution penalty even when fitting an offline cloak
those are strong enough penalties for the 1 single benefit. "not showing up on scanner or probes"
all in all cloaks are fine. the problem is between your ears.
see you in space! 
(god damn i am friendly today)
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Scout Trelan
Amarr
Retribution. Inc.
Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 19:04:00 -
[6]
Being cloaked in a system in 0.0 sov system can be annoying. The only time that I find it an issue where it might prevent some activities is when its a cloaked carrier with recon support alts to cause mahem. A fix to this issue is installation of Cyno Jams and when it eventually leaves it wont be able to come back in.
All other type of ships that can perma cloak in a system you can easily prevent being ganked by bringing support. Mining ops? Bring a rook to ECM him if he shows up and everyone can warp off. If its out of a major hub system and you brought support check directional scans like in WH space, if its a cloaked ship that cannot warp cloaked, once you see it on scans warp to safety. See scanner probes, warp to safety.
Maybe a new Infrastructure Upgrade which causes cap drain on ALL cloaked ships. This forces cloaking ships to either stay cloaked and eventually be out of cap or warp to a system that doesnt have the array in system. For balancing issue it would cause cap drain on ALL ships with a cloak active.
Cloaking Disruption Array
Causes capacitor drain on any ship with a cloak active
Scout Trelan
Retribution. Inc.
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Doc Mexallon
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Posted - 2010.03.17 19:10:00 -
[7]
Nooo, don't change cloaks. I rely on them to be able to mosey my way around the large alliance territory and scavenge some nice chunks of 0.0 ore for mementos. When people enter the system they try to scan, but then they fail (phew) and then they.. leave. Sometimes they hang around for a long time guarding the gate and I'm forced to logoff in a safe spot. Occasionally I stay logged on and see if they're still around when I get back. Sometimes they are, or perhaps they went afk as well. The uncertainly works both ways.
Without cloaks keeping you cloaked for as long as you want, it'll be a matter of time before they get me, whereas the way it is now, I can still get out safely (and still get podded if I made a mistake).
Of course, if I were malicious, I'd be able to exploit this, but then if the system had people who could respond fast, I'd still be in trouble. Do I hate it when cloakies come to my alliance's system and hang out there. Of course, but while they're around the alliance members in the system suddenly become best buddies, and we all end up watching each others' backs, and communicate far more than we normally do. I say a cloaked red in system does wonders for alliance community building. And they normally leave. Or they pop. Without fail.
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Roonia
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Posted - 2010.03.17 19:13:00 -
[8]
PROPOSED SOLUTIONS TO PERMA CLOAKING IN HIGH PROFILE NULL SEC SYSTEMS
By security upgrades i mean Sensor Grid Level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Each level costs more and requires the equivalent security rating for that system.
The Sensor Grid would have to effects on cloaked ships.
EFFECT 1: It will limit the time you can remain cloaked in that system. The time gets shorter with every security upgrade. If your time expires, you will become visible to every enemy ship in that system. You can be probed/targeted.CHANGES WITH SECURITY LEVEL UPGRADES.
EFFECT 2: It will limit the amount of time you can spend cloaked in that system in one place. If you spend too much time cloaked in one place, which is what ALL afk people do, you will begin to lose your ability to remain cloaked faster and faster. And the longer you stay in one position, the loss of cloak will become exponential. So remaining AK for hours at a time and cloaked in a high security level system, will most likely get you killed. Thus, the player will be forced to be ON KEYBOARD and move around often. If hes causing grief to others he may as well DO SOME WORK WHILE DOING IT!! G'DAMNIT :P
EFFECT 2 DOES NOT CHANGE WITH SECURITY LEVEL UPGRADES, ONLY EFFECTS 1 DOES.
Its only logical, you remain in one place for too long hiding, you WILL be found. If you move around you will still be found just takes much longer.
Once EFFECT 1 has expired completely, you may not enter the system again and remain cloaked again for 24 hours, with any ship.
Effects / Levels
Level zero means you can remain cloaked forever, DT after DT.
Level 1
- Total Cloaking Limit: 12 hours / down time. This is the total amount of cloak time you have in a 24 hour period. You can leave the system, come back and recloak but each time you do it, the time you remain cloaked is subtracted from those 12 hours.
- Fixed Position Cloaking: After 30 minutes the sensor grid begins to pinpoint you. For the 30 minutes you will have no penalty to the total cloaking time. After 30 minutes, you will lose 2 minutes of total cloak time for every overtime minute. After 10 minutes of that, you will lose 5 min of total cloak time for each additional minute. After 20 minutes, you will lose 10 minutes of total cloaked time for every additional minute. At this point you will lose 1 hour of total cloak time every 6 minutes.
Level 2: Total Cloaking Limit (TCL) 8 hours
Level 3: TCL 6 hours
Level 4: TCL 4 hours
Level 5: TCL 2 hours
Sensor Grid Costs
Level 1: 1 mil isk per day
Level 2: 5 mil isk per day
Level 3: 8 mil isk per day
Level 4: 16 mil isk per day
Level 5: 30 mil isk per day
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK THIS WOULD SUCK FOR COV OPS ... HERE IS A CATCH
Now here are other things which would go hand in hand with this. The security rating of a system will be subject to decrease though ongoing and active covert ops presence in the system. In other words, the more covert ops enter and exit that system, the system slowly loses security. It must be a constant and diligent effort on the cov ops end to get that rating down. It also must be a constant and diligent effort on the system owner TO PREVENT too many covert ops from entering the system and exiting alive. If a covert ops is destroyed in the system or adjacent systems, after being detected, its effect so far on the security rating is nullified.
The higher the security rating, the more skilled covert pilots will be required to exit alive. Right now every dumbass with a covert ops can shut down mining in a system. There are a few more things to be added to this but this is basically the low down of it.
Shoot away
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Roonia
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Posted - 2010.03.17 19:48:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Roonia on 17/03/2010 19:50:09
I dunno, about this being a whine. Ive been around a very long time myself, since 2004. Ive seen many things change and every time, EVERY TIME, there was heavy opposition from people who generally abuse certain aspects of the game as they see the weakness of the whole thing themselves.
Im a cov ops/force recon pilot myself and it can be and I am abusing it to no end. You cant bait me or hit me hard :P Ive sat in systems for 2 months...that sound reasonable to you? I have 2 cov ops alts that I perma keep in certain system. I call it covert ops wh*oring.
When something cant be killed/found, EVER, it needs fixing.
I remember the *****ing from things being nerfed such as the myrmidon, cyno jammers being implemented...the list goes on and on. One specific comment about the myrmidon fielding 5 heavy drones was that its not imbalance, its that people were little pu*sies. Umm ok...Basically, nothing constructive, just the kind of comments i see above.
No, im not a carebear. Hardly. :)
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.17 20:19:00 -
[10]
i give you a much simpler solution to the whole problem:
make all local in 0.0 like wh space.
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Ashalin Tora
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Posted - 2010.03.17 20:59:00 -
[11]
I disagree with you Roonia. I believe this is an intended edge over others while you're using a cloaking device.
___________
Thorsteinn D. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.03.17 21:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: darius mclever
i give you a much simpler solution to the whole problem:
make all local in 0.0 like wh space.
This
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.03.17 23:13:00 -
[13]
There are solutions to afk cloakies. Communication and coordination is one.
System doesn't have to shut down. If in say your ratting system, well, no one rats alone. First person jumped has to do the most thing in the world....say help help I am being attacked. Most cloakies don't have a drake like tank (have not seen black op bs's doing solo work anyway....usually sb's/recons) and even 3 pve ships ganged up got a decent chance to pop one (or at the minimum will give them seoncd thoughts about being there). Just make sure your ratters got tank to stand a little pvp is all.
Option 2...take a break from carebearism and form a bait gang. Heres how it works, bait goes to the belt like an unsuspecting ratter and rats. Other side of a gate, several of his friends are on standby. Afk cloaky hopefully takes the bate, wonders why the ratter is suddenly pointed/scramming him and goes ohh crap when he is jumped.
Heres the deal with cloakies....they suck until you fly one lol. Get out your systems and knee deep into enemy territory, trust me you'll appreciate the cloak ability more. Cloakies are special purpose ships, this is their purpose. Kind of pointless to have them if they lose cloak in enemy systems lol.
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Gelvina
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Posted - 2010.03.18 08:57:00 -
[14]
I support the upgrade route idea.
Here is my idea:
stage 1 = cloaked agility reduced by 50%
stage 2 = cloaked movement speed reduced by 50% and decloak radius increased to 8km.
stage 3 = cloaked movement speed reduced by 90% and decloak radius increased to 12km.
stage 4 = cloaked movement speed reduced by 95% and decloak radius increased to 16km
stage 5 = cloaked agility reduced by 90% and all ships gain a +10 seconds targeting delay after decloaking (regardless of ship of modules used)
This means:
1. You can stil infiltrate a system with covert attack and use your covert cyno's and what not.
2. it makes it easier to catch cloaked ships entering your system
3. and at stage 5 makes it near impossible for somebody to jump you while carebearing if your alligned.
So its an cloaking defense system that does not prevent somebody from sitting cloaked in a SS the whole day.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.18 09:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Gelvina
I support the upgrade route idea.
Here is my idea:
stage 1 = cloaked agility reduced by 50%
stage 2 = cloaked movement speed reduced by 50% and decloak radius increased to 8km.
stage 3 = cloaked movement speed reduced by 90% and decloak radius increased to 12km.
stage 4 = cloaked movement speed reduced by 95% and decloak radius increased to 16km
stage 5 = cloaked agility reduced by 90% and all ships gain a +10 seconds targeting delay after decloaking (regardless of ship of modules used)
This means:
1. You can stil infiltrate a system with covert attack and use your covert cyno's and what not.
2. it makes it easier to catch cloaked ships entering your system
3. and at stage 5 makes it near impossible for somebody to jump you while carebearing if your alligned.
So its an cloaking defense system that does not prevent somebody from sitting cloaked in a SS the whole day.
*facepalms*
seriously ... read the post from Misanthra.
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Mark Hadden
Amarr
Intergalactic Serenity
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.03.18 09:13:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 18/03/2010 09:16:50
starving system activities with a cloaker is a valid and very good tactic I'm using a lot personally.
There is no god-given right for ratting and plexing, even if you hold the sov.
Its even a counter to people who are abusing the local as intel and instantly hide in a POS or log out, ratters in hostile systems for instance.
In this case you could stay in the system for a longer time afking, working, sitting in your office, sleeping, watching TV, whatever - until they get used to you and continue their carebear activities, point, where you can grip them by their balls finally.
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Gelvina
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Posted - 2010.03.18 13:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: darius mclever
*facepalms*
seriously ... read the post from Misanthra.
I suppose being an twit comes naturally to you?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.18 13:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gelvina
Originally by: darius mclever
*facepalms*
seriously ... read the post from Misanthra.
I suppose being an twit comes naturally to you?
such nice words from someone feeding more stupid ideas into another useless cloak nerf discussion.
thank you!
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Marchocias
Silent Ninja's
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Posted - 2010.03.18 13:19:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Its only logical, you remain in one place for too long hiding, you WILL be found. If you move around you will still be found just takes much longer.
. Actually, on the vastness of space, staying still and simply floating is MUCH more stealthy since you areblending in with the background... Any motion provides a potential viewer with the paralax to be able to see you. Also, motion would require engines to fire, making cloaking more difficult to achieve ( which is why normal cloaks have a speed penalty).
Surely the best solutions are to make local delayed mode in 0.0, or simply HTFU and stop sounding so butthurt and pathetic... Either would solve your issue more effectively than your collosal load of twaddle.
----
I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Izztyrr Maemtor
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.03.18 13:56:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 18/03/2010 13:59:13
Originally by: Roonia
Edited by: Roonia on 17/03/2010 19:50:09
I dunno, about this being a whine. Ive been around a very long time myself, since 2004.
2004? Really? Why are you posting this suggestion on a 5 month old alt?
Originally by: darius mclever
i give you a much simpler solution to the whole problem:
make all local in 0.0 like wh space.
This would solve the cloaking whine problem and a lot more. |
Lobo Ex
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Posted - 2010.03.18 16:08:00 -
[21]
What we need is a new class of ship - The Corvette. Its purpose is to hunt cloaked ships. It should be able to deploy an Eve version of Active/Passive sonar buoys in patterns to try to triangulate the position of a cloaked ship and then drop patterns of charges (think depth and submarines) in an area where they think they have localised a cloak signature.
If the "cloaky pilot" is afk then a none moving cloak would be easier to get a fix on and then drop charges on, if they are not afk they should be able to hear the sonar buoys as they are deployed and gauge if they are getting closer so they can manoeuvre away.
It should not be easy but it could be a new cool class of ship and skill. |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr
GK inc.
Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.03.18 16:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lobo Ex
What we need is a new class of ship - The Corvette. Its purpose is to hunt cloaked ships. It should be able to deploy an Eve version of Active/Passive sonar buoys in patterns to try to triangulate the position of a cloaked ship and then drop patterns of charges (think depth and submarines) in an area where they think they have localised a cloak signature.
If the "cloaky pilot" is afk then a none moving cloak would be easier to get a fix on and then drop charges on, if they are not afk they should be able to hear the sonar buoys as they are deployed and gauge if they are getting closer so they can manoeuvre away.
It should not be easy but it could be a new cool class of ship and skill.
There's a really big-ass line between cool and balanced. |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.03.18 18:09:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lobo Ex
What we need is a new class of ship - The Corvette. Its purpose is to hunt cloaked ships. It should be able to deploy an Eve version of Active/Passive sonar buoys in patterns to try to triangulate the position of a cloaked ship and then drop patterns of charges (think depth and submarines) in an area where they think they have localised a cloak signature.
If the "cloaky pilot" is afk then a none moving cloak would be easier to get a fix on and then drop charges on, if they are not afk they should be able to hear the sonar buoys as they are deployed and gauge if they are getting closer so they can manoeuvre away.
It should not be easy but it could be a new cool class of ship and skill.
no. this would render afk-cloaking dangerous. As we learned above, afk-cloaking is a useful and important tactics to catch local-abusers. |
Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.03.18 18:41:00 -
[24]
How about this?!!!
If you activate your cloaking device in 0.0 it asplodes your ship!!!
Don't interrupt a carebare CCP given right to rat and mine in 0.0
For ****s sake adapt you noobs |
Lobo Ex
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Posted - 2010.03.18 19:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
There's a really big-ass line between cool and balanced.
Yes there is; I did not say it should not be balanced, it should be. It should also be hard to do well, require skills and practice, I just said it could be cool and was just an idea that may lead to something. It would need CCP to shape and tone it of course but I do not think it breaks any back story rules - after all Eve is suppose to be a very technologically advanced period so you would expect that it was possible in the framework that we play in. |
Vert Dalm
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Posted - 2010.03.18 21:21:00 -
[26]
cloaking should consume some kind of fuel (like O2) at a very slow rate to require the cloaker at SOME point to leave the system and refuel. It does not have to be a quick burn, it does not have to be expensive, but AFKing 23/7 seems silly.
I'm ok with anticloak scanning of some kind, but don't think its critical. |
Lobo Ex
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Posted - 2010.03.19 11:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Vert Dalm
cloaking should consume some kind of fuel (like O2) at a very slow rate to require the cloaker at SOME point to leave the system and refuel. It does not have to be a quick burn, it does not have to be expensive, but AFKing 23/7 seems silly.
I'm ok with anticloak scanning of some kind, but don't think its critical.
Fuel usage is not a bad idea but it would make more sense (from a back story /tech view) if it consumed cap, however slowly. That would mean you may have to start carrying cap boosters etc to inject more charge. You could also tie in that if you are moving about a lot cloaked it consumes cap at a faster rate. To go back to the submarine analogy when you are sat on the bottom you can turn off all system not required for moving about so run you power-plant at a reduced level and make it harder to find you.
I am a cloak fan, I love sneaking about being the eyes for my corp/alliance and I am happy to map systems for safe spots, and gate watching spots.
However, I also like the idea of having a ship class and weapon system for hunting down cloaked ships. I spent some time in submarines (for real) and know that hearing sonar buoys getting closer and closer to you will make you react and avoiding them and staying on station takes skill and balls.
An idea for the "charge" could be a mine like thing you deploy and when they go off they disrupt your cloak for a specific time and if it is really close start to damage your cloak/ship. |
Mark Hadden
Amarr
Intergalactic Serenity
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.03.19 12:23:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 19/03/2010 12:24:11
the requests for a cloak nerf are always from carebears, who cant rat because of a cloaker afking in their holy system.
cloaked afking is a good thing to catch ratters by their balls, who try to get rid of you by afking in their absolutely safe POS bubble. |
Shadowspect
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Posted - 2010.03.19 12:48:00 -
[29]
A larger ship should simply have a larger uncloak radius. Covops - fine for 2000m. But a Carrier? Titan?
I don't think the mod needs fixing. A cloak should work exactly the same way for every ship.
The way each ship is perceived with the mod should be different. Carriers should be able to be uncloaked from about 10k or so. |
RabbitofDoom
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Posted - 2010.03.19 13:28:00 -
[30]
Edited by: RabbitofDoom on 19/03/2010 13:56:45
Originally by: Mark Hadden
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 19/03/2010 12:24:11
the requests for a cloak nerf are always from carebears, who cant rat because of a cloaker afking in their holy system.
cloaked afking is a good thing to catch ratters by their balls, who try to get rid of you by afking in their absolutely safe POS bubble.
The main issue is not with catching its with inability to do anything about that because there is no VIABLE counter. There are several potetnial ways to deal with cloakies like RFforces, baits, perma gatecamps but not even single one that would be viable for a computer game. Because they would require a large group of peoples mantaining a permament presence in a system doing something very boring and nothing else otherwise they might not be able to respond on time.
Second thing is that afk cloaking if properly used can have a very heavy impact on any almost any sov holding alliance excluding largest sov holders. Cuple of afk covert ops with cynos in main cerebearing systems, recon group in jump range and an alt corp wardecing is all you need to make 1000+ memmbers alliances just sting not doing much in terms of earning money. Every single account member in that alliance or one that dont have for example noob corp alt in hisec runing l4 will have their income seriously affected. I belive that like 10 dedicated peoples with like 50 accounts can run such op for as long as they would like to causing massive damage in terms of not earned isk.
I think main reason why we dont have afk cloaking nerfed is becuase its not affecting main null sec powers and hisec peoples. Hisec is for obvious resons and main players like atlas or aaa are immune due to territory size. Its mostly affecting smaller alliances like renters or smaller sov holders controling constelation etc. While dominion was supposed to help those entities its making disrupting activities even easier due to new sov mechanic making peoples converge in to a cuple of usualy station systems. Just another reason for creation of massive bloobing aliances. |
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