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Selim
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Posted - 2004.12.05 20:23:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Selim on 05/12/2004 20:27:55
Missiles are way too powerful. They do great damage near or far, use no cap, need no tracking, and are ridiculously easy to use, and require little in the way of skills. I think its evident that Caldari and Amarr are too good when everyone is flying a Raven, Apoc, Armageddon, Ferox or Prophecy nowdays.
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.12.05 20:23:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Selim on 05/12/2004 20:27:55
Missiles are way too powerful. They do great damage near or far, use no cap, need no tracking, and are ridiculously easy to use, and require little in the way of skills. I think its evident that Caldari and Amarr are too good when everyone is flying a Raven, Apoc, Armageddon, Ferox or Prophecy nowdays.
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2004.12.06 02:16:00 -
[153]
About caldari being too good:
1) I dont know much about minnies, but skilled amarr or gallente BS driver can easily outdamage raven. In my previous corp bunch of guys have been posting combat log records in corp chat, and i was always like omg wtf bbq!!!
2) missles still can be outrunned, and take long time to hit something.
3) somehow only few ppl in this thread recalled that caldari cant tank anywhere as well as armor tankers. To illustrate: med shield booster = small armor repairer
4) many caldari ships got dumb bonuses as well. Like MOA havin 5% shield boost bonus (its like 12 hp bonus on med booster) and range bonus at the same time, like assaulties/ceptors having range bonus, like Ferox havin shield resistance and range bonus at the same time... While gallente has very consistent bonuses for the close range combat
5) some1 brough up a point about mwd and lvl3 deadspace missions.... well, try to do that mission in caracal smartie boi.... dont forget to insure it btw...
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2004.12.06 02:16:00 -
[154]
About caldari being too good:
1) I dont know much about minnies, but skilled amarr or gallente BS driver can easily outdamage raven. In my previous corp bunch of guys have been posting combat log records in corp chat, and i was always like omg wtf bbq!!!
2) missles still can be outrunned, and take long time to hit something.
3) somehow only few ppl in this thread recalled that caldari cant tank anywhere as well as armor tankers. To illustrate: med shield booster = small armor repairer
4) many caldari ships got dumb bonuses as well. Like MOA havin 5% shield boost bonus (its like 12 hp bonus on med booster) and range bonus at the same time, like assaulties/ceptors having range bonus, like Ferox havin shield resistance and range bonus at the same time... While gallente has very consistent bonuses for the close range combat
5) some1 brough up a point about mwd and lvl3 deadspace missions.... well, try to do that mission in caracal smartie boi.... dont forget to insure it btw...
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
Shidhe
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Posted - 2004.12.06 10:43:00 -
[155]
The point is not about Caldari and Amarr BS (and BS seems to be the big problem) being unbeatable (they arent), or about clever setups. It is about the fact that they are much easier to use, and that other players are automatically at a disadvantage. Maybe a disadvantage that can be overcome with skill points, isk for tech II or a setup for a given enemy, but definitely a disadvantage.
This is leading to a serious game imbalance, which is not in the interest of the EVE community. It is not likely to do the people who seem to be happy with the present position any good either - much more time without any news of an improvement and just about everyone will be on an level playing field - they will all be flying Apocs or Ravens.
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Shidhe
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Posted - 2004.12.06 10:43:00 -
[156]
The point is not about Caldari and Amarr BS (and BS seems to be the big problem) being unbeatable (they arent), or about clever setups. It is about the fact that they are much easier to use, and that other players are automatically at a disadvantage. Maybe a disadvantage that can be overcome with skill points, isk for tech II or a setup for a given enemy, but definitely a disadvantage.
This is leading to a serious game imbalance, which is not in the interest of the EVE community. It is not likely to do the people who seem to be happy with the present position any good either - much more time without any news of an improvement and just about everyone will be on an level playing field - they will all be flying Apocs or Ravens.
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allmus
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Posted - 2004.12.06 12:19:00 -
[157]
solution to the minmatar ship's and projectiles problem
increase the 1400mm and 1200mm guns damage mod by 2
maybe the 650mm and 720mm guns damage mod by 1.5 too
then, give the ship's the MWD bonus
they are ment to be hit and run ship's, you'd think that when we minmatar broke free of amarr rule we'd steal all the technology available in speed, thus we minmatar should have developed a way to hardwire the MWD's so that they take less resources to operate.
giving a minmatar BS bonus of 15% less MWD penaltys per lvl(standard, not stackable)
this would mean that a lvl5 minmatar BS ship would get 75% less penaltys the MWD gives.
maybe putting abit extra locking range on both typhoon and tempest too, as with 1400mm(unamed) and carbon ammo, the optimal range and the max locking range of the ship are less than 10km apart |
allmus
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Posted - 2004.12.06 12:19:00 -
[158]
solution to the minmatar ship's and projectiles problem
increase the 1400mm and 1200mm guns damage mod by 2
maybe the 650mm and 720mm guns damage mod by 1.5 too
then, give the ship's the MWD bonus
they are ment to be hit and run ship's, you'd think that when we minmatar broke free of amarr rule we'd steal all the technology available in speed, thus we minmatar should have developed a way to hardwire the MWD's so that they take less resources to operate.
giving a minmatar BS bonus of 15% less MWD penaltys per lvl(standard, not stackable)
this would mean that a lvl5 minmatar BS ship would get 75% less penaltys the MWD gives.
maybe putting abit extra locking range on both typhoon and tempest too, as with 1400mm(unamed) and carbon ammo, the optimal range and the max locking range of the ship are less than 10km apart |
Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.12.06 12:48:00 -
[159]
 Originally by: allmus
solution to the minmatar ship's and projectiles problem
increase the 1400mm and 1200mm guns damage mod by 2
maybe the 650mm and 720mm guns damage mod by 1.5 too
then, give the ship's the MWD bonus
they are ment to be hit and run ship's, you'd think that when we minmatar broke free of amarr rule we'd steal all the technology available in speed, thus we minmatar should have developed a way to hardwire the MWD's so that they take less resources to operate.
giving a minmatar BS bonus of 15% less MWD penaltys per lvl(standard, not stackable)
this would mean that a lvl5 minmatar BS ship would get 75% less penaltys the MWD gives.
maybe putting abit extra locking range on both typhoon and tempest too, as with 1400mm(unamed) and carbon ammo, the optimal range and the max locking range of the ship are less than 10km apart
The problem of minnie bs can't be solved by changing the guns. The problem would be that they'd be to effective on other ships, and remember they do not use cap.
What i'd love to try would be to increase the ship bonuses, give the tempest 7% rof/dmg bonus instead of 5 and see how it works out. same for the typhoon's 5% rof bonus, it should be upped to 7%.
This would give the ships that are designed to use L projs about 20% higher dot. |
Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.12.06 12:48:00 -
[160]
Originally by: allmus
solution to the minmatar ship's and projectiles problem
increase the 1400mm and 1200mm guns damage mod by 2
maybe the 650mm and 720mm guns damage mod by 1.5 too
then, give the ship's the MWD bonus
they are ment to be hit and run ship's, you'd think that when we minmatar broke free of amarr rule we'd steal all the technology available in speed, thus we minmatar should have developed a way to hardwire the MWD's so that they take less resources to operate.
giving a minmatar BS bonus of 15% less MWD penaltys per lvl(standard, not stackable)
this would mean that a lvl5 minmatar BS ship would get 75% less penaltys the MWD gives.
maybe putting abit extra locking range on both typhoon and tempest too, as with 1400mm(unamed) and carbon ammo, the optimal range and the max locking range of the ship are less than 10km apart
The problem of minnie bs can't be solved by changing the guns. The problem would be that they'd be to effective on other ships, and remember they do not use cap.
What i'd love to try would be to increase the ship bonuses, give the tempest 7% rof/dmg bonus instead of 5 and see how it works out. same for the typhoon's 5% rof bonus, it should be upped to 7%.
This would give the ships that are designed to use L projs about 20% higher dot. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.12.06 12:50:00 -
[161]
"increase the 1400mm and 1200mm guns damage mod by 2"
... That'd mean ~2.5k of damage with opening salvo from 5-gun Tempest. With the fire rate of ~15 secs... you can as well give them "I win" hi-slot module. :s
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.12.06 12:50:00 -
[162]
"increase the 1400mm and 1200mm guns damage mod by 2"
... That'd mean ~2.5k of damage with opening salvo from 5-gun Tempest. With the fire rate of ~15 secs... you can as well give them "I win" hi-slot module. :s
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.12.06 13:09:00 -
[163]
Originally by: j0sephine
"increase the 1400mm and 1200mm guns damage mod by 2"
... That'd mean ~2.5k of damage with opening salvo from 5-gun Tempest. With the fire rate of ~15 secs... you can as well give them "I win" hi-slot module. :s
3 of thous 5 will prolly miss so i see noproblem 
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.12.06 13:09:00 -
[164]
Originally by: j0sephine
"increase the 1400mm and 1200mm guns damage mod by 2"
... That'd mean ~2.5k of damage with opening salvo from 5-gun Tempest. With the fire rate of ~15 secs... you can as well give them "I win" hi-slot module. :s
3 of thous 5 will prolly miss so i see noproblem
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.12.06 13:15:00 -
[165]
"3 of thous 5 will prolly miss so i see noproblem "
Aye but one will be a crit and make up for all the lost damage -,^
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.12.06 13:15:00 -
[166]
"3 of thous 5 will prolly miss so i see noproblem "
Aye but one will be a crit and make up for all the lost damage -,^
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2004.12.06 13:31:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 06/12/2004 13:38:05
Speaking as someone who has been flying Amarrian ships for some time, I can honestly say that Amarrian ships have not been the best since day one.
It's not that long ago that lasers were so cap-intensive that Apocs typically flew around with 425mm or 1400mm loadouts, and the Tempest was the ship de jour.
Let's not forget that Caldari frigates and cruisers took a big hit when Cruise missiles were restricted to battleship-sized launchers, and as for Gallente ships needing some love, the Thorax is arguably the most overpowered ship for it's class in the game.
The problem with balancing ships is that the most minor of changes can have far-reaching consequences, but right now, I'd say that ships are more balanced than at any time in the past. The only way to make the different ship types truly balanced against each other would be to give them identical stats, and I don't think anybody wants that.
Are the Apoc and the Raven the best tier 2 battleships? I'd say yes, but this doesn't mean that there's a systematic programme to make Caldari and Amarr the best, and the difference between those two ships and the Megathron and Tempest isn't that great.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2004.12.06 13:31:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 06/12/2004 13:38:05
Speaking as someone who has been flying Amarrian ships for some time, I can honestly say that Amarrian ships have not been the best since day one.
It's not that long ago that lasers were so cap-intensive that Apocs typically flew around with 425mm or 1400mm loadouts, and the Tempest was the ship de jour.
Let's not forget that Caldari frigates and cruisers took a big hit when Cruise missiles were restricted to battleship-sized launchers, and as for Gallente ships needing some love, the Thorax is arguably the most overpowered ship for it's class in the game.
The problem with balancing ships is that the most minor of changes can have far-reaching consequences, but right now, I'd say that ships are more balanced than at any time in the past. The only way to make the different ship types truly balanced against each other would be to give them identical stats, and I don't think anybody wants that.
Are the Apoc and the Raven the best tier 2 battleships? I'd say yes, but this doesn't mean that there's a systematic programme to make Caldari and Amarr the best, and the difference between those two ships and the Megathron and Tempest isn't that great.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Siddy
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Posted - 2004.12.06 13:38:00 -
[169]
Originally by: j0sephine
"3 of thous 5 will prolly miss so i see noproblem "
Aye but one will be a crit and make up for all the lost damage -,^
i dont know if i got this whole "artillery" idea wrong, but isint it supose to hurt when it hit? 
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.12.06 13:38:00 -
[170]
Originally by: j0sephine
"3 of thous 5 will prolly miss so i see noproblem "
Aye but one will be a crit and make up for all the lost damage -,^
i dont know if i got this whole "artillery" idea wrong, but isint it supose to hurt when it hit?
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Sforza
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Posted - 2004.12.06 14:24:00 -
[171]
This is an interesting thread in regards this thread..
Linkage
Note the ships being mentioned in this thread...I'd be astonished if the Megathron gets a mention.
Sforza
CEO
Vronsky Brothers and Sons
Council Member
Ushra'Khan |
Sforza
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Posted - 2004.12.06 14:24:00 -
[172]
This is an interesting thread in regards this thread..
Linkage
Note the ships being mentioned in this thread...I'd be astonished if the Megathron gets a mention.
Sforza
CEO
Vronsky Brothers and Sons
Council Member
Ushra'Khan |
Pandora Panda
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Posted - 2004.12.06 14:29:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
It's not that long ago that lasers were so cap-intensive that Apocs typically flew around with 425mm or 1400mm loadouts, and the Tempest was the ship de jour.
And during that time they could fit 8 425mms while running an XL shield booster and hardeners until the end of time. They werent great for dealing damage, but they sure could tank.
Now they can tank and do damage. Whereas a tempest can either do half-ass damage or have a half-ass tank, but not both.
Yeah. Hold on while I shed a tear for the amarr.
--------------------------------------------
CONCORD: Kneecapping Pilots for Misdemeanors Since 2003 |
Pandora Panda
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Posted - 2004.12.06 14:29:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
It's not that long ago that lasers were so cap-intensive that Apocs typically flew around with 425mm or 1400mm loadouts, and the Tempest was the ship de jour.
And during that time they could fit 8 425mms while running an XL shield booster and hardeners until the end of time. They werent great for dealing damage, but they sure could tank.
Now they can tank and do damage. Whereas a tempest can either do half-ass damage or have a half-ass tank, but not both.
Yeah. Hold on while I shed a tear for the amarr.
--------------------------------------------
CONCORD: Kneecapping Pilots for Misdemeanors Since 2003 |
Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.12.06 14:41:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Siddy
Originally by: j0sephine
"3 of thous 5 will prolly miss so i see noproblem "
Aye but one will be a crit and make up for all the lost damage -,^
i dont know if i got this whole "artillery" idea wrong, but isint it supose to hurt when it hit?
I agree on that, i really do think projs need a small fix by increasing ship boni. i did the math, upping both boni from 5 to 7% would increase the DoT by about 22%, in theory we should be able to get those nice > 1000dmg wrecking hits.... once every century you got your ship in the position that it will hit ;)
Overall the amarr ships got a bit too much cap due to the 10% cap reduction bonus. It makes some laser guns use less cap than their hybrid counterparts, while the mega has like 30% less cap than an apoc. |
Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.12.06 14:41:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Siddy
Originally by: j0sephine
"3 of thous 5 will prolly miss so i see noproblem "
Aye but one will be a crit and make up for all the lost damage -,^
i dont know if i got this whole "artillery" idea wrong, but isint it supose to hurt when it hit?
I agree on that, i really do think projs need a small fix by increasing ship boni. i did the math, upping both boni from 5 to 7% would increase the DoT by about 22%, in theory we should be able to get those nice > 1000dmg wrecking hits.... once every century you got your ship in the position that it will hit ;)
Overall the amarr ships got a bit too much cap due to the 10% cap reduction bonus. It makes some laser guns use less cap than their hybrid counterparts, while the mega has like 30% less cap than an apoc. |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2004.12.06 14:47:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 06/12/2004 14:51:02
Originally by: Pandora Panda
Originally by: Rodj Blake
It's not that long ago that lasers were so cap-intensive that Apocs typically flew around with 425mm or 1400mm loadouts, and the Tempest was the ship de jour.
And during that time they could fit 8 425mms while running an XL shield booster and hardeners until the end of time. They werent great for dealing damage, but they sure could tank.
Now they can tank and do damage. Whereas a tempest can either do half-ass damage or have a half-ass tank, but not both.
Yeah. Hold on while I shed a tear for the amarr.
Which was sort of my point 
The changes have been made to the Apoc have been pretty minor for the most part, and yet the changes have been far reaching.
If you'd read my whole post, rather than taking one sentence out of context, you'd have noticed that I did say that the Raven and the Apoc were the best tier 2 battleships.
It really wouldn't take that many changes for the Tempest to be an uber-ship. Add a little to it's speed, give it 7.5% rof bonus, and increase the fall-off of 1400mms (all of which have been suggested recently), and nobody would fly anything but Tempests, and situation would be less balanced than we have now.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2004.12.06 14:47:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 06/12/2004 14:51:02
Originally by: Pandora Panda
Originally by: Rodj Blake
It's not that long ago that lasers were so cap-intensive that Apocs typically flew around with 425mm or 1400mm loadouts, and the Tempest was the ship de jour.
And during that time they could fit 8 425mms while running an XL shield booster and hardeners until the end of time. They werent great for dealing damage, but they sure could tank.
Now they can tank and do damage. Whereas a tempest can either do half-ass damage or have a half-ass tank, but not both.
Yeah. Hold on while I shed a tear for the amarr.
Which was sort of my point
The changes have been made to the Apoc have been pretty minor for the most part, and yet the changes have been far reaching.
If you'd read my whole post, rather than taking one sentence out of context, you'd have noticed that I did say that the Raven and the Apoc were the best tier 2 battleships.
It really wouldn't take that many changes for the Tempest to be an uber-ship. Add a little to it's speed, give it 7.5% rof bonus, and increase the fall-off of 1400mms (all of which have been suggested recently), and nobody would fly anything but Tempests, and situation would be less balanced than we have now.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Sforza
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Posted - 2004.12.06 15:05:00 -
[179]
Its a combination of tweaks, Rodj, that have put the Apoc clear of the Megathron and the Tempest, I cant point at one particular thing. But if you add the cumulative effect of the cap increase, the powergrid increase, and the current off kilter behavoir of the Mega Pulses it all rolls up into quite an advantage.
I've been a witness at fights with PIE, seeing those very same statistical advantages making significant differences in outcomes.. which isnt a dig at either you or your pilots as you're a highly skilled bunch of Slave trading scum. 
I'd never argue that the Apoc in general and the Amarr ships in particular were not very hard done by at earlier this year. Seeing Apocs with Railguns was horrible, but just as horrible as seing more and more Matari/Gallente pilots walking away from there racial ships because they're inferior.
Sforza
CEO
Vronsky Brothers and Sons
Council Member
Ushra'Khan |
Sforza
|
Posted - 2004.12.06 15:05:00 -
[180]
Its a combination of tweaks, Rodj, that have put the Apoc clear of the Megathron and the Tempest, I cant point at one particular thing. But if you add the cumulative effect of the cap increase, the powergrid increase, and the current off kilter behavoir of the Mega Pulses it all rolls up into quite an advantage.
I've been a witness at fights with PIE, seeing those very same statistical advantages making significant differences in outcomes.. which isnt a dig at either you or your pilots as you're a highly skilled bunch of Slave trading scum.
I'd never argue that the Apoc in general and the Amarr ships in particular were not very hard done by at earlier this year. Seeing Apocs with Railguns was horrible, but just as horrible as seing more and more Matari/Gallente pilots walking away from there racial ships because they're inferior.
Sforza
CEO
Vronsky Brothers and Sons
Council Member
Ushra'Khan |
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