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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2010.03.19 08:59:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Denuo Secus on 19/03/2010 09:03:30
Hi,
I read here several times that it's better to use racial ECM when more than 3 ECMs are fitted. Tbh I don't get that logic. Imo racial ECM are ofc better in large fights with good target variety. In smaller PvP I see rather one or two race fleets. Also the rance isn't that important in smaller fights.
For instance the last gate camp I encountered: around 12 ships, mostly Minmatar frigs and some Gallente stuff. No Amarr, no Caldari.
In such a situation think I'm better of with multi ECM, right? Or not? I'm not sure. As an example, I'm tackled by 3 Minmatar and one Gallente evul. With a set of 4 racial ECMs I'd have 2 optimal ECMs and 2 sub-optimal ones. It's even worse with pure opponent fleets.
Imo multi ECM seem much more solid in said environments to me - even with more than 3 ECMs. Am I completely wrong?
Thanks for any advice! |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.19 09:25:00 -
[2]
Take your example of 12 ships, Matari frigs and some Gallente .. a multispecs has a chance against anything, while a racial is practically guaranteed a jam.
In a camp like that the Minmatar hulls pose the biggest threat due to their speed (ie. more likely to act as tacklers) so having 2 or more Minmatar jammers is a good choice.
If you are tackled by four people then multi's will not get you out since statistically 1-2 will miss .. best bet is to not get tackled by that many 
ECM and all eWar for that matter, benefit greatly by knowing as much about an enemy as possible.
Bringing damps/tracking disruptors against a Drake gang will have little effect for instance. |
Fornicis
Caldari
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2010.03.19 09:32:00 -
[3]
It may help if you tell us which ship you are flying, for example if you're flying a rook then it may be worthwhile fitting 4 racials, 2 omnis and a LSE for that little extra buffer, 1 racial of each type and 2 omnis, hopefully the gang will be diverse enough that you only have to use the omnis rarely if that. |
Dana Mownhobbit
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Posted - 2010.03.19 09:33:00 -
[4]
I am not en expert on this, but the multispectral ECM needs significantly more cap and has only about half the optimal range and falloff IIRC.
So if your target is beyond the optimal of your mulit-ECM the ECM strength is already reduced while you would have twice the range for the specialiced ECMs, thus covering a wider volume without penalties.
I would say as long as you can estimate that the majority of your opponents only used 1 or 2 racial ship types, your are better off with specialized ECM.
It also depends if you are soloing or grouping with a fleet, maybe even with more than one ECM ship.
In that case it might be good to coordinate with the other ECM pilot, e.g. you cover race A and B, and he covers race A and C, A beeing your estimated most probable opponent and B and C the second and third probable, which still leaves you screwed if you encounter a lot of race D ships, but life is a biatch.
Then again ECM-drones have equal jam-strengths just like multi-spectral... |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.19 10:57:00 -
[5]
The reason is because the jam chance (against a single target) of one correct racial and 1-2 incorrect racials is better than three multispectrals, with multispectrals only getting a slight advantage on the fourth ECM multispectral/third incorrect racial. If you have enough ECM to bring one of each type, even ignoring the option of putting each racial on the correct target, you will have better jamming luck with one of each racial type than the same number of multispectrals.
The only time to use multispectrals is when you don't have enough ECM slots to bring each type of racial, but that's a fairly rare case. |
Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2010.03.19 13:56:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Fornicis
It may help if you tell us which ship you are flying...
Blackbird, Rook, Scorp...all of them. I think the topic is relevent for every ECM ship. I think now it's the use case what matters...see below.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Take your example of 12 ships, Matari frigs and some Gallente ....so having 2 or more Minmatar jammers is a good choice.
Not good. Next time I'm caught in a camp of Amarr fanatics with my Minmatar ECMs ^^ I've no intel or somthing like that regarding the type of the enemy ships.
Originally by: Dana Mownhobbit
the multispectral ECM needs significantly more cap and has only about half the optimal range and falloff IIRC..
ECM range is not a problem in my special case of small gang PvP. Such a small fleet cannot afford a dedicated pure ECM boat imo. That's why this ship has other tasks (Blackbird: frig defence, Scorp: RR+Neut, ...) which are mostly only doable inside of the multi ECM optimal. On a Blackbird this is 50km.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
The reason is because the jam chance (against a single target) of one correct racial and 1-2 incorrect racials is better than three multispectrals, with multispectrals only getting a slight advantage on the fourth ECM multispectral/third incorrect racial. If you have enough ECM to bring one of each type, even ignoring the option of putting each racial on the correct target, you will have better jamming luck with one of each racial type than the same number of multispectrals.
I bolded the part which let me think a bit different about the topic now. When my job is to jam one ship with maximum effect then racial ECM makes really sense. In every case I've the one perfect jammer for the target. And in best case I've the option to perma jam up to <number of my racial ECMs> opponents that way. But only if the fleet mix matches. Maybe I have one Amarr ECM left but the only Amarr ship in the opponent fleet is the ammo hauler and this second Minmatar HAC does really evul things to my fleet mates ^^
But what's when my job is to jam (or just interrupt) as much ships as possible as often as possible - with only one (my) ECM ship in a small gang and not knowing the mix of the enemy fleet? I know, an impossible task. But I'm still not sure if a row of as many as possible multi ECMs could be better then... |
James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.03.19 14:41:00 -
[7]
If you don't care about range, don't care about cap and are only fighting ships from single factions (and you don't know which one prior to the engagement), then obviously load up on multispecs.
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kessah
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2010.03.19 16:01:00 -
[8]
With max skills, including signal dispersion and Recon V etc, I tend not to run into that many problems jamming with multi-spec's.
Factor in overload and it's a safe bet. When engaging in the Rook anyways, If in a Falcon or a Scorpion chances are you'll be out at range and racials are probably better in that situation? tbh I always use the Rook if I'm playing ECM jockey and I'll use Multi's.
Firing off the first couple and overloading the rest.
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Tanaka Reina
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Posted - 2010.03.20 10:26:00 -
[9]
Racials better imo, for example yesterday kept a punisher permajammed for 2 minutes with only one named racial jammer. My weapons were very poorly chosen so really couldnt make a dent in his active armor tank :D (was solo and fitted scramble + dual webs) really, at least against frigates, racials are the way to go.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.03.20 13:21:00 -
[10]
Don't forget that racial's also use a lot less cap and have a longer range.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
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lady remorseless
Minmatar
Krazny Oktyabr Revolyutsiya
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Posted - 2010.03.20 17:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: kessah
With max skills, including signal dispersion and Recon V etc, I tend not to run into that many problems jamming with multi-spec's.
Factor in overload and it's a safe bet. When engaging in the Rook anyways, If in a Falcon or a Scorpion chances are you'll be out at range and racials are probably better in that situation? tbh I always use the Rook if I'm playing ECM jockey and I'll use Multi's.
Firing off the first couple and overloading the rest.
shame your multispecs cant save your bubbles from us! =)
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Jintra Jin'tak
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Posted - 2010.03.20 17:40:00 -
[12]
ECM math and why racials beat multispectral at 4+ ecm mods
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kessah
M. Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.21 03:45:00 -
[13]
Originally by: lady remorseless
Originally by: kessah
With max skills, including signal dispersion and Recon V etc, I tend not to run into that many problems jamming with multi-spec's.
Factor in overload and it's a safe bet. When engaging in the Rook anyways, If in a Falcon or a Scorpion chances are you'll be out at range and racials are probably better in that situation? tbh I always use the Rook if I'm playing ECM jockey and I'll use Multi's.
Firing off the first couple and overloading the rest.
shame your multispecs cant save your bubbles from us! =)
Yeh me and tet laughed are heads off at that, we have a hauler alt in system with about 100 of the buggers. 
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Jade Imp
Caldari
M. Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.21 16:22:00 -
[14]
In my experiance it is better to just have the racials. but if you MUST you multispec i would always bring a Caldari racial as well, so you can jam any potential jammers on the enemy side first.
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Beastykins
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Posted - 2010.03.21 19:04:00 -
[15]
I fly all of the ECM specialised ships, and the only one I would ever use multi-spec's on is the kitsune.
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Noisrevbus
Caldari
Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2010.03.21 19:38:00 -
[16]
I'd like to put some extra weight on what Merin mentioned.
An important factor to remember is that targets and popularity dictate effective use of racial ECM.
Don't forget that ECM is often used in terms of focus + failsafe.
With that in mind, there is alot more combinations available than just all-dfferent racials or all-multies.
Escpecially considering recent changes to the game that have changed to role of ECM more and more from force-multiplication to objective-orientation (well, that has implications in gang-gang PvP anyway - perhaps not as much when numbers are small enough to cover each ship with modules).
If you have 3 slots, like on a buffered Kitsune or a Griffin: you might consider two racials and a multispec, for example.
Racial + multispec vs. popular ship/role 1 ('popular ships' may be RR-Cruisers, strong-RR RRBS or other EW-related ships)
Racial + multispec vs. popular ship/role 2
Multispec + Off-racial vs. small tackle (race 3)
Multispec + Off-racial vs. small tackle (race 4)
You have similar combinations to consider regardless if you can fit 2 ECM modules or 5 ECM modules.
Some people may favour multispecs in that sense to stack racials, and save a multispec to deal with low-sensor threats.
With that said...
I still belive racial ECM modules should be removed and replaced by racial scripts with similar values. It would far more dynamics to (especially-) the Caldari Recons. Make them less make-or-break oriented, as that only serve to ennerve both sides of the arugment (since it drives up the number of ECM modules and introduces more and more ECM volume over ECM/Tank balance. That's just me though, i'd rather see more 3-ECM setups running around and applying ECM to counter other effects, than seeing 6+ECM setups that either just pile on the "can't do that because you are jammed" messages throughout a fight or gets alpha'd at the start of an engagement without contributing anything at all. With both 6+ECM scenarios being equally boring.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2010.03.21 20:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jintra Jin'tak
ECM math and why racials beat multispectral at 4+ ecm mods
yeah too bad that site is wrong when it comes to multiple targets :P
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=974928
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2010.03.21 22:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Noisrevbus
An important factor to remember is that targets and popularity dictate effective use of racial ECM.
Yes good point. Atm my corp mates and me do some business in Angel null sec. Just for fun I used a Blackbird to jam the rats with 4x Ladar jammers during mining and ratting ops. After 2 days I realized everyone and his grandma flies Dramiels or Cynabals :D I was able help my gang more than once very effective because of that.
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Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S
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