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Stabber vs Dramiel

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BXDRED	Posted - 2010.03.19 15:09:00 - [1] Edited by: BXDRED on 19/03/2010 15:11:32 Edited by: BXDRED on 19/03/2010 15:09:19 Hi, I'm seeking pvp advice with tactics on a recent encounter with a Dramiel. I'm in my Stabber with a mini Vaga setup, looking for some PVP action. I jump into a dead end low sec system with 1 other pilot in the system I quickly check his age and sec ratting. He has a negative rating and we're about the same age. I do a dscan and he's driving a Dramiel. Great, I'm thinking hes looking for some PVP action My Dscan skills suck, so I'm guessing just jump to a belt and he'll find me. Sure enough at the last belt, the Dramiel jumps in and lands about 5k from me. Quickly the Dram locks, scrams and pops 4 warrior 2. My shields, start taking a pounding, but not melting. So I open up with T2 180 loaded with Barrage and Fury light assault missles Dramiels shields holding and my AC are missing. I attempt to move out to 20k with microwarp, but I keep bouncing off of Roids. By this time, my shields are melting, the Warrior 2 are doing some damage. So I align to a planet, hit the micro warp to move out of scam range and GTFO. What could have I done different or was it a lost cause from the beginning? Thanks
Salen Kane Amarr	Posted - 2010.03.19 15:21:00 - [2] Not used ammo with a tracking penalty?
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.19 15:24:00 - [3] Don't use barrage. Go straight up/down to clear asteroids. Use EC-300 drones, they will mess up all frigates. Use web and armour/hull tank instead. Use neutraliser(s). Do all that and you can probably chase him off, but you need at least twin webs if you want the mail unless he is feeling suicidal (includes being noob/fail-fit). If you want to hunt Dramiel's use the Rupture, but I doubt he would have engaged since they are bloody nasty.
BXDRED	Posted - 2010.03.19 15:28:00 - [4] Thanks, for the input. I was setup to fight at range with Barrage. But the Dram landed at 5k. I did think about switching to RF EM/Fusion. But it would take 10 s to swap and the drone were eating into the shield buffer tank. Plus I was trying to get out to 20K, and use the barrage, but I kept bounding off of roids.
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.03.19 15:28:00 - [5] 1) You want to engage a Dramiel at range, not sitting at zero waiting for him to come to you. 2) You want to have a Neut. 3) You want to use a ship that doesn't suck (ie. Rupture) as opposed to one that does suck (ie. Stabber) 4) You don't want to use Barrage when he's right up in your face 5) He didn't pop 4 Warrior 2s, he only has the drone bandwith for 3. 6) Did I mention you should fly a Rupture instead? Fitted like this preferably: [Rupture, Intigo's Rupture] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II 425mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II,Republic Fleet EMP M Medium 'Gremlin' Power Core Disruptor I Small 'Gremlin' Power Core Disruptor I Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I Medium Projectile Burst Aerator I Warrior II x6 The Dramiel also did a ton of mistakes. He should have had you scrambled so you couldn't have MWD'd and he would easily have beaten you. Using that Rupture you can easily get a MWD cycle off and reduce transversal when you have both Neuts on him and your Warriors + ACs will rip him to shreds. - Intigo
BXDRED	Posted - 2010.03.19 15:35:00 - [6] Please don't respond.. "with you could have flown XX Ship" Instead of a Stabber. (I know that!) I'm trying to learn how to FLY A STABBER. And the proper target selection for a STABBER. Other than that, thanks for all the helpful feedback
Beltantis Torrence Groovy Guns	Posted - 2010.03.19 15:36:00 - [7] Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 19/03/2010 15:36:32 Originally by: Amarr Supremacist 6) Did I mention you should fly a Rupture instead? Fitted like this preferably: [Rupture, Intigo's Rupture] - Intigo Honestly the armor plated one is better. It's still pretty mobile and the web is worth the midslot. Likewise the 425's track poorly. The setup below will **** frigates all day long. [Rupture, Rupture] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Crystalline Carbonide Plates I Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I Warrior II x5
Beltantis Torrence Groovy Guns	Posted - 2010.03.19 15:44:00 - [8] Originally by: BXDRED Please don't respond.. "with you could have flown XX Ship" Instead of a Stabber. (I know that!) I'm trying to learn how to FLY A STABBER. And the proper target selection for a STABBER. Other than that, thanks for all the helpful feedback Why? The stabber is a hit and run ship that works well in roaming gangs. It's not particularly good at solo PVP unless you fit it specifically to kill certain types of ships (anti-frig or anti-cruiser) in which case you'll be wide open at losing to other types of ships. That's generally true for anything though. Before you undock your fit should be setup to kill certain types of things and you should avoid things that aren't on that list. The stabber doesn't have the grid and slots to comfortably tank a dram, fit neuts and also have web + warp disruptor to seal the kill. A bellicose or rupture is much better at the job. Skill in the game is not about being awesome at flying one ship, its about knowing how the rock/paper/scissors match of PVP works and then carrying out on that.
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.03.19 15:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Amarr Supremacist on 19/03/2010 15:54:31 The Rupture I linked is a BETTER Stabber than the Stabber itself. It's a better ship to learn to fly the Vagabond. There is no reason to fly a Stabber at all. Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 19/03/2010 15:36:32 Originally by: Amarr Supremacist 6) Did I mention you should fly a Rupture instead? Fitted like this preferably: [Rupture, Intigo's Rupture] - Intigo Honestly the armor plated one is better. It's still pretty mobile and the web is worth the midslot. Likewise the 425's track poorly. The setup below will **** frigates all day long. No. Also, mine was a general fit. And yours is pretty terrible. Infact, yours is so bad that it would be EASIER for a Frigate to go up against that due to the lack of Neuts. 1 Web will not do anything vs a Frigate like the Dramiel that packs an AB + Scram, he will still easily avoid your damage. You don't know what you're talking about, I'm afraid. - Intigo
BXDRED	Posted - 2010.03.19 15:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Originally by: BXDRED Please don't respond.. "with you could have flown XX Ship" Instead of a Stabber. (I know that!) I'm trying to learn how to FLY A STABBER. And the proper target selection for a STABBER. Other than that, thanks for all the helpful feedback Why? The stabber is a hit and run ship that works well in roaming gangs. It's not particularly good at solo PVP unless you fit it specifically to kill certain types of ships (anti-frig or anti-cruiser) in which case you'll be wide open at losing to other types of ships. -- Why? fly a Stabber or any non-uber PVP ship---> The challenge The stabber doesn't have the grid and slots to comfortably tank a dram, fit neuts and also have web + warp disruptor to seal the kill. --> THANK YOU, that was the answer I was looking for A bellicose or rupture is much better at the job. ---> Appreciate the input... again I'm trying to learn how 2 fly a stabber and target selection Skill in the game is not about being awesome at flying one ship, its about knowing how the rock/paper/scissors match of PVP works and then carrying out on that. ---> Agreed. That's why I flew a Rifter for a year, Now I'm ready t2 go to a bigger hull. The Rupture, Hurricane, Wolf, Crow, Ishkur, and a few more are on list. I'm sure I post a question about Rupture vs XX ship in a few weeks I'm su
Beltantis Torrence Groovy Guns	Posted - 2010.03.19 16:44:00 - [11] Originally by: Amarr Supremacist Edited by: Amarr Supremacist on 19/03/2010 15:54:31 The Rupture I linked is a BETTER Stabber than the Stabber itself. It's a better ship to learn to fly the Vagabond. There is no reason to fly a Stabber at all. Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 19/03/2010 15:36:32 Originally by: Amarr Supremacist 6) Did I mention you should fly a Rupture instead? Fitted like this preferably: [Rupture, Intigo's Rupture] - Intigo Honestly the armor plated one is better. It's still pretty mobile and the web is worth the midslot. Likewise the 425's track poorly. The setup below will **** frigates all day long. No. Also, mine was a general fit. And yours is pretty terrible. Infact, yours is so bad that it would be EASIER for a Frigate to go up against that due to the lack of Neuts. 1 Web will not do anything vs a Frigate like the Dramiel that packs an AB + Scram, he will still easily avoid your damage. You don't know what you're talking about, I'm afraid. - Intigo Tell that to the 500 mil isk in ships or so I've soloed with that fit in 5 or so outing. http://www.caldarimilitia.org/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=171770 http://www.caldarimilitia.org/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=171755 http://www.caldarimilitia.org/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=171766 (I soloed the Ishkur and Thrasher, that other gang that killed the rapier wasn't with me) http://www.caldarimilitia.org/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=171719 http://www.caldarimilitia.org/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=167895 (I soloed four out of those five, I had nothing to do with the brutix kill and those guys had nothing to do with mine). Etc, etc, etc. Yeah its a horrible fit and clearly I don't know what I'm talking about.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.19 17:24:00 - [12] Girls, focus! We are trying to help a guy who wants to kill Dramiel's for Goddess sake not stroke your e-peens. We should be doing our utmost to encourage the OP and help him become a stone cold Dramiel killer. A good Dramiel is a dead Dramiel!
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.03.19 18:13:00 - [13] Belt, killing FW ******s does not make the fit good. Your fit is bad and would die to any competent AB Frig because you don't fit Neuts. And you saying "425s have too bad tracking" is pretty hilarious and shows how little you know about reducing transversal. And if you want to compare Relateds for the fits (despite killboards proving nothing): http://genos.killmail.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=5686357 ;) - Intigo
Kazzzi Amarr Iniquitous Technologies Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.03.19 18:25:00 - [14] When fighting frigs, load titanium sabot ammo if you have time, it has a tracking bonus. Fitting a neut is usually better than fitting an unbonused missile launcher. Asteroid (stargate, station, etc) graphics don't always match their model and you can wind up bumping off invisible objects if you don't know what you are looking for. Use caution near them.
Darthewok State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.03.19 19:08:00 - [15] Edited by: Darthewok on 19/03/2010 19:18:02 Originally by: BXDRED proper target selection for a STABBER. usually not Dramiels. they are just too fast. a scrambled stabber travels around 360m/s. don't expect to keep tackled a frig that travels 5400m/s with MWD, 1800m/s with AB, and 900m/s (with AB overheated) even when scrambled and webbed.
Throckbane	Posted - 2010.03.19 19:45:00 - [16] The only reason you survived is because the dram pilot is terrible. He should have had a scram fitted, and even if he didn't he should have been able to easily keep up with you. Also, frigs will melt stabbers easily. Use the shield rupture so you can have 5 light drones like the vaga.
BXDRED	Posted - 2010.03.19 19:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 19/03/2010 19:18:02 Originally by: BXDRED proper target selection for a STABBER. usually not Dramiels. they are just too fast. a scrambled stabber travels around 360m/s. don't expect to keep tackled a frig that travels 5400m/s with MWD, 1800m/s with AB, and 900m/s (with AB overheated) even when scrambled and webbed. Great thanks the tip. Next time don't pick a fight with a Dram while flying a Stabber
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.03.19 19:57:00 - [18] The stabba is a hella fun ship to fly bro! Also very difficult to fly and not for those who like killboard stats. As for its ability to destroy a dram. Man im not sure that is gunna happen everytime you encounter one(but anything can happen in pvp). Also the bellicose is a better option than the stabber if your intrested in another ship that many dont fly. Ive had some fun with that ship too... One thing i can guarantee you is this. You neut the dram and align to a celestial, and you will be able to warp away. Other than that, you can fit small autocannons, armor tank it, web ,scram, neuts and a mwd. That will give you a anti-frig stabba. Also is this a fleeet stabba? how do you have 4 drones?
BXDRED	Posted - 2010.03.19 20:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Proxyyyy The stabba is a hella fun ship to fly bro! Also very difficult to fly and not for those who like killboard stats. As for its ability to destroy a dram. Man im not sure that is gunna happen everytime you encounter one(but anything can happen in pvp). Also the bellicose is a better option than the stabber if your intrested in another ship that many dont fly. Ive had some fun with that ship too... One thing i can guarantee you is this. You neut the dram and align to a celestial, and you will be able to warp away. Other than that, you can fit small autocannons, armor tank it, web ,scram, neuts and a mwd. That will give you a anti-frig stabba. Also is this a fleeet stabba? how do you have 4 drones? ---> Regular Stabber ---> I didn't have 4 drones, ((the Dram launched 3 Warrior 2)) ---> I Had 1 ECM drone, but didn't launch it.
Voodoo Ido	Posted - 2010.03.20 14:46:00 - [20] Know your enemy. What you had: a fast mwd cruiser with a shield buffer and only a long point for tackle, along with some poor tracking ac's and low-dps missiles. And for extra lulz, one drone. Put this up against a standard dram fit: mwd and ab, 2pt scram and medium shield extender. With nos and ac's up top. What you can expect to deal with is a very fast and agile frigate with a meaty buffer, that will have you dead in the water and orbiting you at close range before you can blink, never mind any attempts at 'kiting' a 8-10km/s frig with a 3 km/s cruiser. Once within range, he will activate his ab (possibly overheated) to out-track your guns, counter any web/ drones/ missiles you may have, and stick his nos on you to run his cap under your neuts. He now has the option of leisurely popping your drones and chipping away at your tank or, if things go south, he has quite an easy time escaping. The only realistic stabber fit that might have had a chance, imho, is ab/web/scram with a plate buffer, a medium and small neut and possibly small guns, not sure if you can get transversal down enough for mediums. Even then, dram is still faster and nothing is certain. In your case, since you had nothing to counter this tactic, logic would seem to determine the result. The one constant in all fights is uncertainty, hence logic may not always apply. Upon initial engagement, you may have limited knowledge of your opponent, his skills, experience, fitting, etc. It could be a total fail fit, or it could be one of the top killers in the game. Sometimes you know who your fighting. More often you don't. What you can do is get to know the ships you expect to come up against, the most common fits, and their general capabilities and weaknesses. Yes there is the chance it could be an easy kill, but don't count on it. Plan for as many factors as possible. This way you're not surprised and can react appropriately. Bottom line: Before you lock something up, know what your getting into, potentially. "Know your enemy"
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.03.20 15:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Throckbane Also, frigs will melt stabbers easily. Only if they have scrams and the fight begins in scram range. Which, by the way, should never happen if you are a decent pilot (scram range).
Beltantis Torrence Groovy Guns	Posted - 2010.03.20 18:21:00 - [22] The advent of the faction frigs makes the mini-vaga (and vaga as well) a lot harder to do. I used to run around with a TC arty stabber and pop ceptors chasing me but the faction frigs have too much HP and speed to do that now. Also weakened sniper hacs vs frigs as a decent faction frig pilot can get to you fast enough to put a tackle on you close range where you don't have drones to kill them. My zealot and sneagle have been sitting tucked away in station for the short term as they aren't as solo viable against bc + support fleets these days as they used to be.
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.03.20 18:53:00 - [23] Dramiel can **** a vagabond if he gets on top of it (which is easy) so stabber is maybe you can win if it is your lucky day and the dramiel pilot is jacking off at the same time as pvp and he reach climax just as you engage (maybe he can still win because dramiel is overpowered).
Bomberlocks Minmatar Star Bombers	Posted - 2010.03.21 00:36:00 - [24] Originally by: BXDRED Please don't respond.. "with you could have flown XX Ship" Instead of a Stabber. (I know that!) I'm trying to learn how to FLY A STABBER. And the proper target selection for a STABBER. Other than that, thanks for all the helpful feedback I like your attitude, mate. I also find that the challenge of flying ships that are not generally appreciated in PvP can be fun. It's why I have a number of Bellicose in my hanger. Thumbs up for at least trying. And you managed to get away from the dram, which many others didn't.
Bomberlocks Minmatar Star Bombers	Posted - 2010.03.21 00:41:00 - [25] Edited by: Bomberlocks on 21/03/2010 00:41:33 Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 19/03/2010 15:36:32 Originally by: Amarr Supremacist 6) Did I mention you should fly a Rupture instead? Fitted like this preferably: [Rupture, Intigo's Rupture] - Intigo Honestly the armor plated one is better. It's still pretty mobile and the web is worth the midslot. Likewise the 425's track poorly. The setup below will ** frigates all day long. [Rupture, Rupture] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Crystalline Carbonide Plates I Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I Warrior II x5 While I agree with your quote that the 425mms are to slow to track a dram, I was wondering why you weren't fitting a neut, since that would seem like a better idea against a frigs propulsion. Also, what kind of ehp do you get with that single plate and DCU? Edit: CCP ** you and your 5 minute reposting delay.

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