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Gabriel Z
Free Rein
1
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Posted - 2012.07.03 17:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Like many new players, after spending a few weeks trying to get up to speed with EVE, I finally realized that the biggest hurdle to doing what I wanted to do in EVE was Time. Skill Point Training Time, to be specific. Every null sec alliance that I've looked at has a minimum 5m sp limit for entry, and many have far more. Aside from Goon/Test and EUNI, I can't find a corp/alliance that recruits lower skill point players (if you know of one, please speak up). 5mil SP takes about 4 months to train and that gets you into a ship with slightly better than crappy fitting skills.
Which brings me to my question: why are training times so long? Why is the training time formula what it is? What is the basis of the training times that were programmed? Does anyone know? |

Price Check Aisle3
129
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
EVE is hard. Also, long training times mean I can log out for a week to go on vacation or spend time with my wife and child, and still accomplish something. - Karl Hobb IATS |

Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
116
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Someone will come in here and tell you why the skill training is what it is, I am in a hurry and don't got time.
What I will tell you is you should look into join RvB or EveUni. Both accept brand new people, and both will teach you the Eve basics. Personally I think ALL new players should join one of those alliances. By time you learn how to Eve, you will see you now have more than 5mil SP and you will be ready to move on to a nul-sec alliance. When you do get out to nul you will see you are better at PvP than 75% of the people out there who don't really understand falloff, explosion velocity, etc. |

Lipbite
Express Hauler
125
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's interesting mechanic for older players compared to standard 1-week leveling time in other MMOs: you always have new skills to train and there are always ships you can't fly. At least for first 7-8 years. This make game more attractive on the long run - you can always find and train something new.
Also longer train time = more money for the company obviously. |

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1602
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Eve = (Patience + HTFU)-¦
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Price Check Aisle3
129
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Posted - 2012.07.03 17:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
To expand on one of your questions, corps often set an SP minimum for the simple fact that it takes some time to get to know EVE. More SP generally means more time playing and getting to know EVE. If you join one of the alliances that Lucy Ferr mentioned you will soon find yourself with some good experience and 5 mil SP. - Karl Hobb IATS |

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1604
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
While I just read a thread where Ms.Ferr had a huge brainfart, I agree with Ms.Aisle3 that this is excellent advice. RvB have a lot of fights and could be the ideal place to learn PvP as well as to plan where exactly your training should be headed. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8344
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Posted - 2012.07.03 17:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
First, of all, in case you haven't found them already and just to set the stage for how it works before we look at the GÇ£whyGÇ¥.
The formula for SP requirements to reach any given level of a skill is is 2^(2.5 +ù [lvl -1]) +ù Rank +ù 250. You acquire SP at a rate of [Primary attribute] + [Secondary Attribute / 2] SP per minute (often expressed as (Primary + Secondary/2)+ù60 SP/h).
The reason it takes long is for the decisions to train higher levels to matter and to create a massive form of diminishing returns. Not only does the next level take more than five times longer to train than the last one, the relative benefits from training that level also decrease. Eg. it takes you a little over half a day to get a +ù1.20 bonus from a rank-1 / 5%-per-level skill, but it takes you half a week to get a +ù1.25 bonus from the same skill. It's a massive increase in time taken, and all you get out of it is a 4% higher multiplier. For some skills and levels, the decision is made a bit trickier (or in some cases easier) because that extra training time unlocks more skills and equipment that provides more direct value for the bonuses, or indirectly just lets you use completely different things that are of value to you.
Another reason for why it takes so long is to make your decision of attributes matter. Between the worst possible rate of learning (25.5 SP/minute for a 17/17 attribute combo) to the best (45 SP/minute for a 32/26 combo) lies a decision to focus exclusively on one set of skills and let everything else rest for a loooong while (at least once you've used up your free remaps). Again, it's a matter of weighing benefits against gains GÇö is that near doubling of the training speed worth the lack of flexibility I can have in my training plan?
Whether it's the matter of the attributes or the chosen target skill level, the core principle is the same: your decisions are meant to matter, and they're meant to be ever so slightly hard.
GǪbut to your initial musing, the answer is a bit different. The reason you need some specific amount of SP to get into a corp or alliance has (usually) nothing to do with the skills GÇö it has to do with the time. Here, SP is simply a measurement of time played, and they want people who have been in the game for a certain amount of time based on the assumption that after this amount of time, the player will be familiar enough with the game that he can take care of himself and have a level of self-sufficiency that the corp can deal with and make use of. Increasing the training speed would only make those corps increase their SP requirements to match the new speed. Sure, as a measurement of game experience, it's somewhat imprecise GÇö someone who only ever logged on to set a skill queue will be as dependent and unknowing as a completely new player, whereas someone else who spent every waking hour in the game might have acquired knowledge and GÇ£street smartsGÇ¥ to match players that are years old, but it's a starting point at leastGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
72
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lipbite wrote: Also longer train time = more money for the company obviously.
This.
If training times were short, people would max out, get bored, and move on to other games... just like they do in every other "casual" MMO that you can reach cap in less than a month in.
EVE is for players who do not like easy. |

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2467
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Training times are long, so that no one can do it all. You are not meant to train everything. You're supposed to either be decent at a lot of things, but not mastering any of them or specialize in a few areas and suck at the others. This encourages people to fly in groups to achieve things or make them get more alts. Both are good for CCP, since other people are what make players stay with a MMO for years and more alts means more money. It also creates long term goals for the players and usually makes them very attached to their characters and their individual history.
The formula is also designed to be somewhat noob friendly. This is because the benefits of skill levels scale linearly, but the training time grows exponentially. Meaning it's always easy and fast to start a skill and get playing, but mastering skills is very inefficient use of your training time. You only do it when it's a prequisite for something you want or when you really want to specialize in that skill. This also means, that a few million extra SP for a veteran might get a few extra levels in few skills, but the change in performance might not even be noticeable. For a new player those same SP can get dozens of skills trained to a decent level and provide a huge boost in performance.
As for why it's real time based, it lets people play the game instead of playing to level. It also allows people with lives progress their characters at equal speed to no life basement dwellers. Naturally people who play more gain other advantages and can use them to buy a highly trained character and alts, but there is a limit to what that can get you. It also creates a reason for people to stay subbed even when you know your actual time playing the game will be limited. Naturally this is also good for CCP finances.
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Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
139
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Its tough starting out, but if you stick with it I think you'll come to appreciate the system for what it is. By taking longer than most other games you'll find yourself learning a lot of about specific roles you can fill right now, a great one for example being a Tackler.
People often make the mistake of rushing up into Battleships or BCs before they really understand the game, and often find themselves with a wreck shortly later.
Give it time, and don't concern yourself with how long it takes to get from one ship to another. Master what you can fly now, as it will only make you a better pilot later.
Edit: Also you'd REALLY be surprised how many Null alliances take someone in if they have a pulse and an ounce of competence, like me.  |

Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
147
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 18:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gabriel Z wrote:Like many new players, after spending a few weeks trying to get up to speed with EVE, I finally realized that the biggest hurdle to doing what I wanted to do in EVE was Time. Skill Point Training Time, to be specific. Every null sec alliance that I've looked at has a minimum 5m sp limit for entry, and many have far more. Aside from Goon/Test and EUNI, I can't find a corp/alliance that recruits lower skill point players (if you know of one, please speak up). 5mil SP takes about 4 months to train and that gets you into a ship with slightly better than crappy fitting skills.
Which brings me to my question: why are training times so long? Why is the training time formula what it is? What is the basis of the training times that were programmed? Does anyone know?
i understand your point. We take minimum 10m sp. The reasons behind this are very simple. We would have to do half of your work for you. Try out RvB. But you are gonna be forced into a pvp.
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Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 18:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
The system may be somewhat harsh on new players BUT if you focus your training into few specific roles, you can be just as good as the 8 year veteran.
The only advantage a veteran has over a newbie is broader acess to different roles in the same character. |

Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 18:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia already mentioned it but I want to emphasize again that skill training works via a "fun now" vs "efficiency" trade-off.
I started training a fresh alt exactly two months ago (May 3rd) and as I have no intention to undock it at least for the next year I can afford to optimize solely for training speed. The character currently has > 4.2m SP (has been training at an average of 2.840 SP/h so far; that average will continue to approach 2.700 SP/h as time goes by [cerebral accelerator got me above 2.700 for the first month]).
In contrast my main is training whatever skills I feel are most useful at this moment and has to take the cost of implants into account as he gets podded frequently - he has been training at an average of 1950 SP/h over the past 4 years.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1869
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 18:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
I've been playing for two years, I just got to the point where I have access to *almost* every ship I want to fly. In another 3-4 months I'll be able to fly every sub-cap in the game, save marauders and black ops (not interested in either). It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |

Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Welcome to "instant gratification" flame war territory!
Training times are not realistic at all. Real classes and training take LESS time than the fake clock-timer EvE skills.
A while ago, I posted a comparison of my atmospheric physics class (fulfils B6 science requirement at Cal State East Bay) to Advanced Planetology: 1a) Both require many prereqs so we can ignore the time for those. 1b) At the time of the comparison, my main had +4 implants and was optimized for Perception and Willpower. 2) Atmospheric physics is 6 in-class hours plus about 8 hours of home work per week for 10 weeks :: (6 x 10) + (8 x 10) = 140 hours (4 hours of that is eaten up by exams but I won't agrue about that.) 3) Making a conservative guess, Advanced Planetology V (an x5 multiplier) will take ~14 days X 24 hours/day = 336 hours.
So, 140 hours for a real skill that is on my resume versus 336 hours for a fake skill only usable in EvE. That's a ridiculous difference even accounting for an unoptimized brain mapping.
This is not about instant gratification. I simply don't think fake skills should take LONGER than real college level science. I'll go out on the flame war limb and state that skill times should be cut in half. This opinion is based upon starting a new character at a time when the skill timer was faster for noobs, and it actually felt like the correct training speed. ~45+ days for Gallente Carrier V ? Really? Training times are nutz.
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Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
72
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote: So, 140 hours for a real skill that is on my resume versus 336 hours for a fake skill only usable in EvE. That's a ridiculous difference even accounting for an unoptimized brain mapping.
What if SP training times have downtime included in them for the "realism" factor?
Your clone could be studying 8 hours a day, and screwing off the rest of the time. Your figures for RL training strips out all downtime.
If we calculated how long it took from start to finish for your real world classes, it would be more like 1680 hours. |

Pak Narhoo
Knights of Kador
609
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:This is not about instant gratification. I simply don't think fake skills should take LONGER than real college level science. I'll go out on the flame war limb and state that skill times should be cut in half. This opinion is based upon starting a new character at a time when the skill timer was faster for noobs, and it actually felt like the correct training speed. ~45+ days for Gallente Carrier V ? Really? Training times are nutz.
Deal with it.
Hi, I'm CCP Arrow, I screwed up the.. ummm... |

Gabriel Z
Free Rein
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
Lots of good posts. Tippia-- thanks for the skill point formulas and the technical details. Tippia and Vera both, yes I was looking to learn about the mechanic at the root of the formula. The reasoning/rationale behind it and how it works in the bigger picture. It would be interesting to find out exactly how they quantify it. Why X number of days for this or that ship type. Why not Y number of days? Perhaps its tied to build times. Which is tied to mining times. and on and on
I get why the alliances have the requirements they do in terms of fittings and ship types. I just expected more use of noobs in fleets for large alliances. So a situation where you maybe spend a few weeks getting up to speed with the terminology and basic mechanics of your ship, join an alliance's noob fleet, spend a few weeks getting used to taking orders in a fleet and clicking when told, then into some meatshield fleet or whatever. I'm sure there are reasons for all of it. You can't endlessly replace ships as a noob and an alliance can't endlessly replace for noobs either, etc etc.
I'm just having a bit of buyer's remorse combined with a bit of early stage addiction. I want some fleet action and the waiting is killing me. I can understand why people like small gang and 1v1 but I signed up for giant fleets in space. |

Sun Win
Kill It With Fire
15
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
You can train to be a useful pilot within days, look around for some guides, depending on what you want to do. Once you are doing that thing, spend some time on the boring but critical support skills.
As to the problem of corps demanding minimum SP, you've already found a few examples of newbie friendly corps. There are plenty more.
Head over to the recruitment forum and do a search for "new players welcome". I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8347
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:So, 140 hours for a real skill that is on my resume versus 336 hours for a fake skill only usable in EvE. That's a ridiculous difference even accounting for an unoptimized brain mapping. 140 hours for the basic-to-medium theories (and little applicability) of a very narrow field compared to 474 hours to be the best in the world at interpreting sensory data to determine the global distribution of a large number of specific resources. Seems reasonable. I'd expect the same real-world knowledge to take about 15GÇô20 yearsGǪ
Quote:This is not about instant gratification. I simply don't think fake skills should take LONGER than real college level science. Why not? Lots about hobbies takes far longer than college-level science (especially since the latter is purposefully designed to be dealt with really quickly). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|

Implying Implications
cuties4life
127
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:41:00 -
[22] - Quote
I think you're playing the wrong game. püåpüÉpüàn+P |

Zoe Athame
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
92
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Implying Implications wrote:I think you're playing the wrong game.
What other MMO lets you join a super awesome PvP group without leveling up first? |

Gabriel Z
Free Rein
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
Comparing in game training times to out of game ones is never going to make much sense. The physics involved in Jump Portal Generation will take hundreds of years to develop.
My original post is more about me discovering a gap between expectations I had before I entered the game (its Ender's Game! Fleets! Non-stop Battle Room!) and the reality of the game's mechanics. I didn't care much for the PvE content, which is probably supposed to be the time filler for a character my age. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
232
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Whatever you do with your SP, patience is paramount, and a very GENERAL plan
A SPECIFIC plan could be equated to "what do I want to be when I grow up", and you are 14. What kind of pilot you want to be when you have 5M, or 10M, or 50M SP, will be very different that what you envisioned.
That just is. So you want to build a GENERAL plan, that encompasses ship support skills. When I say ship support skills, I am talking about stuff like engineering V, electronics V, Energy Management V, Energy Grid V, Navigation V, etc etc...there are a ton of skills that are critical, that can be applied to fitting / flying ANY ship.
Many corps/alliances will provide you a standard fit they expect you to be able to handle. You must have the basic ship support skills to handle that fit: (see above).
Some people make a beeline to being able to turn the ignition on a battleship, but can't fit the ship properly because they did not get the weapon support skill and ship support skills.
Best suggestion I can give is get really, really good at flying T1 cruisers. That means T2 medium weapon specialization, a ton of ship support skills, a ton of navigation skills, and a ton of weapon support skills. You aim for getting good at T1 cruisers, and a natural by-product of that will be getting good at flying T1 frigs, and you are a heartbeat away from T2 frigs then also.
I know I am the extreme case, but I had 30M SP (mostly in ship and weapon support skills) before I could fly a T2 cruiser |

Price Check Aisle3
130
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Training times are not realistic at all. Real classes and training take LESS time than the fake clock-timer EvE skills.
2) Atmospheric physics is 6 in-class hours plus about 8 hours of home work per week for 10 weeks :: (6 x 10) + (8 x 10) = 140 hours (4 hours of that is eaten up by exams but I won't agrue about that.) 3) Making a conservative guess, Advanced Planetology V (an x5 multiplier) will take ~14 days X 24 hours/day = 336 hours. Well, let's talk about your rationale here. Your college level class isn't going to cover everything you need to know on the subject. There's a lot of on-the-ground training and tribal knowledge that you'll have to pick up during your career, so the training time in EVE might actually be far less than you need. Also, consider the scale. A skill in EVE to V is the best. Surely one college level class is not going to give you absolute mastery of the skill (your employer will call bullshit on that faster than you can blink, n00b).
Considering that knowledge is injected directly into the brain (EVE training) it's actually pretty fast learning. - Karl Hobb IATS |

Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
211
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
Gabriel Z wrote:Aside from Goon/Test and EUNI, I can't find a corp/alliance that recruits lower skill point players (if you know of one, please speak up)
Agony Unleashed.
If you can use a point/scram, fly a frigate, enjoy blowing other people up and optionally are capable of stringing some coherent sentences together then they'll take you on as a trial. I joined them years ago with about 3mill SP or so, had some fun and learned a lot.
This character is nearly 4 years old now, still can't fly a BS worth a damn but everything below that is pretty much maxed. Doesn't mean I'm any good at half the stuff I'm maxed on though 
Enjoy what you can fly when you can fly it. Have a "next ship" goal but don't let that become your focus. |

Gabriel Z
Free Rein
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 20:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:skill plan advice What I ended up doing was not remapping while I trained up mid level fitting skills and basic frigate/destroyer skills. I switched back and forth between skills until I could fit a Rifter and Thrasher with the most common fits. Then I remapped for Gunnery, Missile, and Ship skills, which I will do until i can fit a Hurricane with T2 guns and have the ship/missile skills for a Hound and Cheetah (I complete Frig 5 today). Then remap for fine tuning the fitting skills, cloaking, navigation. Then I will still have 1 remap left for decisions at the 15 or 20 mil skillpoint level |

Irya Boone
Escadron leader La League des mondes libres
17
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 20:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
or you can pay a lot of plex with real money and get 20billions isk and Buy a Pvp Toon with more than 35 millions SP in the character baazar In a day ... |

Gaellia Bonaventure
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
193
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 20:39:00 -
[30] - Quote
EvE is hard.
That's pretty much it, actually. Bring your possibles. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8350
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 20:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
GǪalso, I suppose I should take the opportunity to spam this thing as usual. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
136
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 20:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Welcome to "instant gratification" flame war territory!
Training times are not realistic at all. Real classes and training take LESS time than the fake clock-timer EvE skills.
A while ago, I posted a comparison of my atmospheric physics class (fulfils B6 science requirement at Cal State East Bay) to Advanced Planetology: 1a) Both require many prereqs so we can ignore the time for those. 1b) At the time of the comparison, my main had +4 implants and was optimized for Perception and Willpower. 2) Atmospheric physics is 6 in-class hours plus about 8 hours of home work per week for 10 weeks :: (6 x 10) + (8 x 10) = 140 hours (4 hours of that is eaten up by exams but I won't agrue about that.) 3) Making a conservative guess, Advanced Planetology V (an x5 multiplier) will take ~14 days X 24 hours/day = 336 hours.
So, 140 hours for a real skill that is on my resume versus 336 hours for a fake skill only usable in EvE. That's a ridiculous difference even accounting for an unoptimized brain mapping.
This is not about instant gratification. I simply don't think fake skills should take LONGER than real college level science. I'll go out on the flame war limb and state that skill times should be cut in half. This opinion is based upon starting a new character at a time when the skill timer was faster for noobs, and it actually felt like the correct training speed. ~45+ days for Gallente Carrier V ? Really? Training times are nutz.
Bolded the bit that undermines this silly little comparison. In real life it takes you 10 weeks to complete the supposed comparable course. In Eve Online 14 days.
|

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
136
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 20:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:
I'll go out on the flame war limb and state that skill times should be cut in half. This opinion is based upon starting a new character at a time when the skill timer was faster for noobs, and it actually felt like the correct training speed. ~45+ days for Gallente Carrier V ? Really? Training times are nutz.
45 days is typical for a medium length skill.. |

baltec1
1580
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 21:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
Been playing for 6 years now and I still have so much stuff to look forwards to. Thats why. |

MastaKari
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 21:25:00 -
[35] - Quote
Andoria Thara wrote:Lipbite wrote: Also longer train time = more money for the company obviously.
This. If training times were short, people would max out, get bored, and move on to other games... just like they do in every other "casual" MMO that you can reach cap in less than a month in. EVE is for players who do not like easy.
This^^^
Long Training times are a good thing, keeps you interested. If you want quick leveing go play star trek online, Max level in 2 weeks of casual playing then get bored a week later, come back here and be happy... |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
232
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 22:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
Gabriel Z wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:skill plan advice What I ended up doing was not remapping while I trained up mid level fitting skills and basic frigate/destroyer skills. I switched back and forth between skills until I could fit a Rifter and Thrasher with the most common fits. Then I remapped for Gunnery, Missile, and Ship skills, which I will do until i can fit a Hurricane with T2 guns and have the ship/missile skills for a Hound and Cheetah (I complete Frig 5 today). Then remap for fine tuning the fitting skills, cloaking, navigation. Then I will still have 1 remap left for decisions at the 15 or 20 mil skillpoint level
It can take a ton pf planning, a lot of thinking, and oodles of patience. And then, you can join a corp that wants something else of you and you have to throw away the plan. That is the way of Eve.
But you will never regret trying to stick with the plan of great support skills before anything else. Though I am off target a little bit, my goal is to have half my skills to L5, and everything else at IV. There is the odd skill that does not fit that doctrine, but I think it works pretty well.
That might be a bit much for someone starting out, but I think it is a good longterm goal.
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Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 22:41:00 -
[37] - Quote
No guild in WoW or EQ or Rift or wherever is going to take someone who started playing a week ago. Skills in EVE are the same as experience and leveling in other games. The difference being, you level up passively leaving time to actually play the game (provided you have a source of isk).
The main skills you actually need don't take long to train. No skill takes long to get to level 4, which is really all you need for the majority of skills and professions. The only thing that separates new players from veterans is that vets have more skills at level 5. And the difference between 4 and 5 is not that much. |

Aruken Marr
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
169
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 00:12:00 -
[38] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:No guild in WoW or EQ or Rift or wherever is going to take someone who started playing a week ago. Skills in EVE are the same as experience and leveling in other games. The difference being, you level up passively leaving time to actually play the game (provided you have a source of isk).
The main skills you actually need don't take long to train. No skill takes long to get to level 4, which is really all you need for the majority of skills and professions. The only thing that separates new players from veterans is that vets have more skills at level 5. And the difference between 4 and 5 is not that much.
I really hate it when people go around telling new players they need to have trained xyz or skill up for a couple of months before you can play the game properly and be useful. Players can be useful from day 1 with lvl 2 and 3 basic skills. This is just a bad attitude to have and it's one new players could do without hearing.
edit- I'm assuming that's your main and you've been in your npc corp for the past 2 years. Please don't tell anyone what you just wrote. |

Pahah Pahineh
Universal Ally
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 00:34:00 -
[39] - Quote
Gabriel Z wrote:Like many new players, after spending a few weeks trying to get up to speed with EVE, I finally realized that the biggest hurdle to doing what I wanted to do in EVE was Time. Skill Point Training Time, to be specific. Every null sec alliance that I've looked at has a minimum 5m sp limit for entry, and many have far more. Aside from Goon/Test and EUNI, I can't find a corp/alliance that recruits lower skill point players (if you know of one, please speak up). 5mil SP takes about 4 months to train and that gets you into a ship with slightly better than crappy fitting skills.
Which brings me to my question: why are training times so long? Why is the training time formula what it is? What is the basis of the training times that were programmed? Does anyone know?
This is pretty simple to answer. So simple that answering it will anger and confuse many veterans.
In a large persistant ingle universe / single server, one cannot have Expansions the likes you see in sharded games like WoW / Guild Wars. To have territorial boundaries one cannot cross based on how much money you have paid to CCP in Eve would be a nonsense. The simplest realistic way to introduce "expansions" is to make it so you have to buy your way into vessels. If you think about it, your 10 euros a month will get you 1m sp maybe, and that 1m sp might get you into a ship. If you want to board a different ship, you need to pony up another 10 euros. If you want to play CCP's "Capital Ships" expansion, you need to pony up around 100 dollars, and wait 10 months.
That's where the system gets sticky, because clearly there is no actual real world logical reason to make you wait 10 months. In game however, there is an obvious reason for it, but you'll never see it written down. Instead you will see a bunch of bittervets frothing at the keyboards about "this" and "that" none of which makes any sense. Essentially all their arguments stem from "I had to wait, you have to wait".
It's a really elegant system, because most players would rather rage than understand how easily they're getting manipulated. |

Grumpymunky
Super Monkey Tribe of Danger
284
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 00:49:00 -
[40] - Quote
Skill training times are my "cool-off period" I want to fly that ship NOW! But I need another 2 months of skill training. After training for 2 months I don't feel like flying it anymore, and I want to fly something else NOW! Seems like I'm doomed to EFT-warrioring forever. Post with your monkey. |
|

Gabriel Z
Free Rein
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 00:50:00 -
[41] - Quote
More great posts. Thanks again guys. Obviously I haven't been in the game long enough to really reply to some of them, since I don't understand all the fine points that go into them.
While in the Uni and while reading forums, a lot of people talk about being useful with even a little bit of training. I agree. Which is why its surprising to learn that there aren't more noob components of the big organizations in EVE. I joined EUNI very soon after starting thinking it was the orientation class for eve and that big fleets would be tripping over themselves to recruit some delicious, unjaded, naive trigger pullers. The Uni itself runs some fleets, but it isn't really geared for teaching PvP beyond the here's-where-the-buttons-are and introductory fleet operations.
Like I said before, I originally posted because I was curious how the time element worked into things. The more I think about it, the more I think the first quarter of eve life is probably intended for PvE and bankrolling future activitiy. I skipped that with 2 plexes for ISK because the PvE was killing my soul.
Everyone keeps talking about RvB and FW, which is probably what I'll putter around with. |

Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
368
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 02:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
The training times are simply put, designed so that people who work a lot and therefore have a lot of money, don't get out done by some snotty pimply faced puke, who has no life and can spend all his time in the game.
Then these "working" people can buy plex's, if they work to much to balance out their isk to match their SP.
So essentially the unemployed work for slave wages to help the working people have fun. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|

Jax Bederen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 02:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
Eve is an old game and has a cleverly hidden "keep em playing" old school type design that rivals Korean grinders in skill development duration. Would rather see things speed up a bit and see new skills introduced then wait 20 plus days for a nominal 5% increase. |

Knug LiDi
N00bFleeT Numquam Ambulare Solus
60
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 03:00:00 -
[44] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Welcome to "instant gratification" flame war territory!
Training times are not realistic at all. Real classes and training take LESS time than the fake clock-timer EvE skills.
A while ago, I posted a comparison of my atmospheric physics class (fulfils B6 science requirement at Cal State East Bay) to Advanced Planetology: 1a) Both require many prereqs so we can ignore the time for those. 1b) At the time of the comparison, my main had +4 implants and was optimized for Perception and Willpower. 2) Atmospheric physics is 6 in-class hours plus about 8 hours of home work per week for 10 weeks :: (6 x 10) + (8 x 10) = 140 hours (4 hours of that is eaten up by exams but I won't agrue about that.) 3) Making a conservative guess, Advanced Planetology V (an x5 multiplier) will take ~14 days X 24 hours/day = 336 hours.
So, 140 hours for a real skill that is on my resume versus 336 hours for a fake skill only usable in EvE. That's a ridiculous difference even accounting for an unoptimized brain mapping.
This is not about instant gratification. I simply don't think fake skills should take LONGER than real college level science. I'll go out on the flame war limb and state that skill times should be cut in half. This opinion is based upon starting a new character at a time when the skill timer was faster for noobs, and it actually felt like the correct training speed. ~45+ days for Gallente Carrier V ? Really? Training times are nutz.
Buddy:
And yet, you can learn the skill "Electrical engineering" to an Elite level (equivalent to doctorate, perhaps) in less than 3 months vs 8 years (minimum) in real world (ignoring that academia is not real world) and you are claiming that skills progress too slowly ?
Good grief man, L3 in a skill would be equivalent to a baccalaureate , l4 would be masters, l5 is doctorate. Please go out and try again. And yes, flying a titan would take the equivalent of several doctorates)
If only we could fall into a woman's arms
without falling into her hands |

Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 03:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
EVE skills have no meaning outside of the game so comparing their training times to a real life education is pointless.
EVE is not real! |

Nathan Ernaga
Applesauce Brigade
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 10:56:00 -
[46] - Quote
Just imagine EvE full of titans and indys. Yes, I'm looking at you STO. |

Mallak Azaria
272
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 11:19:00 -
[47] - Quote
Plus 1 wrote:EVE is not real!
Yes is it. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8356
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 11:39:00 -
[48] - Quote
Knug LiDi wrote:Good grief man, L3 in a skill would be equivalent to a baccalaureate , l4 would be masters, l5 is doctorate. Nah. Bump those down a notch or two. Coming up on one, I can tell you with some certainty that a doctorate is lvl III at the mostGǪ 
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1016
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 13:40:00 -
[49] - Quote
Eve's SP system means that you can play the game in the manner you want to, rather than being forced to grind for new levels as happens in nearly every other MMO. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |

Gabriel Z
Free Rein
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 15:52:00 -
[50] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Eve's SP system means that you can play the game in the manner you want to, rather than being forced to grind for new levels as happens in nearly every other MMO. You can play in the manner you want to, 4 months from when you first want it.
Thanks for all the great responses people. While I'm waiting for the skill points to pile up, I can still think about stuff. Which is why I wrote this post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=128977&find=unread
I'm off to complete a little more wishful thinking. |
|

baltec1
1586
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 15:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Aruken Marr wrote:
I really hate it when people go around telling new players they need to have trained xyz or skill up for a couple of months before you can play the game properly and be useful. Players can be useful from day 1 with lvl 2 and 3 basic skills. This is just a bad attitude to have and it's one new players could do without hearing.
Agreed. All you need to get started is a frigate, a MicroWarpdrive and a Warp Disruptor. |

Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
184
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:01:00 -
[52] - Quote
My character can only do so much speed before needing a s10 minute break. But its the only way he crams a full day of training into 5 minutes of study. |

Gabriel Z
Free Rein
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:03:00 -
[53] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aruken Marr wrote:
I really hate it when people go around telling new players they need to have trained xyz or skill up for a couple of months before you can play the game properly and be useful. Players can be useful from day 1 with lvl 2 and 3 basic skills. This is just a bad attitude to have and it's one new players could do without hearing.
Agreed. All you need to get started is a frigate, a MicroWarpdrive and a Warp Disruptor. so why doesn't every major alliance in EVE have a noob fleet to make use of these extremely useful people? this question and point arose earlier in teh thread. |

Iria Ahrens
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:04:00 -
[54] - Quote
The SP requirement often isn't even about character skills at all. The SP means you spent couple months playing and SHOULD be self sufficient, and have a certain amount of game knowledge. In null many corps don't want to hold you hand much as far as making the isk goes. They want to go kill stuff. Others don't want to field to many "noobish" questions. "I was about to say GÇ£HereGÇÖs a RubikGÇÖs cube, go f%$^ yourself,GÇ¥ because thatGÇÖs what we do with EVE Online." EVE Lead Game Designer Kristoffer Touborg for PC Gamer |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8361
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
Gabriel Z wrote:so why doesn't every major alliance in EVE have a noob fleet to make use of these extremely useful people? this question and point arose earlier in teh thread. Because they are lazy and can't be bothered. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|

Aruken Marr
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
170
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:11:00 -
[56] - Quote
Gabriel Z wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aruken Marr wrote:
I really hate it when people go around telling new players they need to have trained xyz or skill up for a couple of months before you can play the game properly and be useful. Players can be useful from day 1 with lvl 2 and 3 basic skills. This is just a bad attitude to have and it's one new players could do without hearing.
Agreed. All you need to get started is a frigate, a MicroWarpdrive and a Warp Disruptor. so why doesn't every major alliance in EVE have a noob fleet to make use of these extremely useful people? this question and point arose earlier in teh thread.
Elitism, faggotry and a hint of paranoia. |

Gabriel Z
Free Rein
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:13:00 -
[57] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Gabriel Z wrote:so why doesn't every major alliance in EVE have a noob fleet to make use of these extremely useful people? this question and point arose earlier in teh thread. Because they are lazy and can't be bothered. that's too bad. the noobs in EUNI were super willing to fly in the most suicidal fleets. they followed orders without any thought for their own safety and most thought it a victory to get into the battle at all, never mind win it. i don't know any numbers, but i have to believe 100 noobs in destroyers can kill a surprisingly large amount of stuff. |

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1536
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:16:00 -
[58] - Quote
As far as I can figure, there is only one reason the skill training time will never be modified to make it shorter.
If you could train faster there would be much less reason to purchase alt accts.
While good for the players to have a faster training time, it's not good for CCP and it's their game. Not ours. So we either HTFU or GTFO.
Mr Epeen  There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8361
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:21:00 -
[59] - Quote
Gabriel Z wrote:that's too bad. the noobs in EUNI were super willing to fly in the most suicidal fleets. they followed orders without any thought for their own safety and most thought it a victory to get into the battle at all, never mind win it. i don't know any numbers, but i have to believe 100 noobs in destroyers can kill a surprisingly large amount of stuff. Indeed they can, but they still require a fair amount of guidance and maintenance GÇö you need to be willing to put the effort and investment in to get the output.
The whole point is to do provide that guidance and support, so it's no surprising that they're doing it, and the Goons know (kind of) what they're getting before their newbies join so the hard part of the fit is already doneGǪ and their entire play style makes the investment a no-brainer. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|

Klown Walk
Fat People Lag IRL
97
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:26:00 -
[60] - Quote
Well, I have a decent amount of sp (30m+) and I find myself using cheap frigates and cruisers the most. |
|

baltec1
1587
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:29:00 -
[61] - Quote
Gabriel Z wrote: so why doesn't every major alliance in EVE have a noob fleet to make use of these extremely useful people? this question and point arose earlier in teh thread.
Goons and Test do. There are several others who also take on nubs but for the most part the 0.0 alliances are daft and do not take advantage of this fine resource. |

Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
There are players that would want a short skill training time? 
After a few years of playing, you do not notice your accummulation of skill points, much less the skills that were trained. In fact, I know how I feel and I am pretty sure there are many, many, many players feeling the same way, but when you start a skill and see it does not even last a week, much less double days in length, your first thoughts are, "Oh another short skill!" while mentally scrambling to find another skill to tack on soon. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8363
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:34:00 -
[63] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Goons and Test do. There are several others who also take on nubs but for the most part the 0.0 alliances are daft and do not take advantage of this fine resource. I suppose it's time for this old gem to illustrate the logic. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|

True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:47:00 -
[64] - Quote
Gabriel Z wrote:Like many new players, after spending a few weeks trying to get up to speed with EVE, I finally realized that the biggest hurdle to doing what I wanted to do in EVE was Time. Skill Point Training Time, to be specific. Every null sec alliance that I've looked at has a minimum 5m sp limit for entry, and many have far more. Aside from Goon/Test and EUNI, I can't find a corp/alliance that recruits lower skill point players (if you know of one, please speak up). 5mil SP takes about 4 months to train and that gets you into a ship with slightly better than crappy fitting skills.
Which brings me to my question: why are training times so long? Why is the training time formula what it is? What is the basis of the training times that were programmed? Does anyone know?
To be entirely honest, the 5m SP check from Alliances in most cases, really isn't actually about the skillpoints at all. One reason is it prevents cheap and easy spies (well, limits atleast, and when it comes down to large alliances, there will always be spies).
More importantly though, it shows that the person has been in the game for X amount of time and has an idea of what they are doing. If for example someone with years of experience returned to EVE on a fresh account, they could most likely talk themselves into a Corp even when well below the skill requirements. |

True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:50:00 -
[65] - Quote
Gabriel Z wrote:Lots of good posts. Tippia-- thanks for the skill point formulas and the technical details. Tippia and Vera both, yes I was looking to learn about the mechanic at the root of the formula. The reasoning/rationale behind it and how it works in the bigger picture. It would be interesting to find out exactly how they quantify it. Why X number of days for this or that ship type. Why not Y number of days? Perhaps its tied to build times. Which is tied to mining times. and on and on
I get why the alliances have the requirements they do in terms of fittings and ship types. I just expected more use of noobs in fleets for large alliances. So a situation where you maybe spend a few weeks getting up to speed with the terminology and basic mechanics of your ship, join an alliance's noob fleet, spend a few weeks getting used to taking orders in a fleet and clicking when told, then into some meatshield fleet or whatever. I'm sure there are reasons for all of it. You can't endlessly replace ships as a noob and an alliance can't endlessly replace for noobs either, etc etc.
I'm just having a bit of buyer's remorse combined with a bit of early stage addiction. I want some fleet action and the waiting is killing me. I can understand why people like small gang and 1v1 but I signed up for giant fleets in space.
Unfortunately a fleet of noobs is useless to a big Alliances, since some Fleet Commanders have trouble getting their 100man gang of skilled 50m+ pilots to all primary and shoot at the same target, a fleet full of less experienced players that do less damage at less range and have no experience isn't much good.
That said, a single new player, even with very few SP can be a huge benefit to any fleet, as long as you specialise early on, you can be as effective a Heavy Assault Cruiser / Battleship pilot as a 90m SP guy |

Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
72
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 17:19:00 -
[66] - Quote
Tippia wrote:baltec1 wrote:Goons and Test do. There are several others who also take on nubs but for the most part the 0.0 alliances are daft and do not take advantage of this fine resource. I suppose it's time for this old gem to illustrate the logic.
Hadn't see that before, props to the makers.
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |

Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
197
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 17:27:00 -
[67] - Quote
The training times are fine but if u are impatient just buy a character with 100m sp.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=277 |

Gabriel Z
Free Rein
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 18:41:00 -
[68] - Quote
Buying 2 plexes and selling them for ISK is going to be the limit on my attempts to pay to get ahead of the curve. 35 bucks or so once is reasonable. 50 Plex? lol |

Tanlinara
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 05:18:00 -
[69] - Quote
I dont have a problem with the skill training times .
But i do think CCP could do a better job of granting starting skills . At the very least give out prerequisite skills for the ones they do hand out in the tutorials.
For instance do the industry track , you get mass production and production efficency and want you to make something , but oh wait you need to buy and learn industry before you can do the mission.
They give you some cargo holds , oh wait no hull upgrades skill . IMO they should automaticly give you the very core skills like social, industry so you can complete the tutorials.
Starting with 50k sp isnt very much ,would be better if they had accelerated training up to say 1 m sp IMO
I got an armor repairer 1 when i started , was told to equip it to my ship (no skill to do so) , well if you start off in your hangar you wont see the skill book until you go to your captains quarters .
You get quite a few ships/ skills etc from doing the tutorials and maybe your supposed to do them in some order , i did the exploration , trade,industry in that order and found it to be quite disjointed, because you get a mission and then hopefully aura shows up and gives you what you need to do the mission .
Mining was one , my imparior didnt come with a gun or mining turrent , i got the gun at a gate or something , the mining laser i actually bought one then got it later after i needed it. |
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