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Struggling with when to use decryptors

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MouthP1ece	Posted - 2010.03.24 15:49:00 - [1] Fellow forum dwellers - I've been tinkering with invention lately and am really enjoying it and seem to be having some moderate success (35% success over about 250 individual jobs), and am making money from it (fun, success and cash-rewards seems to be the EvE trifecta!). So far I've only been inventing what I consider to be 'low-end' stuff (drones, some ammo, some mods, nothing spectacular) but am looking into moving into some ship production, and I'm struggling a little with decryptors. Now, I understand what they do and how they work and have been using [url=http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/invention_chance.php]this guide[/url] to see how they would affect my chances but I'm still somewhat new to this side of EvE and am struggling a little to know when to use them. I realise that they won't be worthwhile on the aforementioned drones, ammo and mods, but if I'm making (say) an interceptor/assault frigate then is it worth using decryptors given the increased ML? If I was inventing a Mackinaw and used the most expensive one, does the +4 runs get broken down and invalidated by the -5 ML? I guess I'm just a little confused as to when these are worth using, and when they will end up costing me more and was hoping someone could provide me either with some insight or direct me towards a guide that might simplify this? I know this opens me up to flaming, but I have been doing my own research on the subject - however, it has not answered my questions and I don't like being a "spreadsheet warrior" any more than I like being an "EFT warrior" and was hoping here someone could piont me in the right direction? thanks!
Arous Drephius	Posted - 2010.03.24 15:56:00 - [2] Just do the math really. Does (5 * Mackinaw sell price) - (2 * (Datacore Cost + Decryptor Cost)) - (5 * Build cost at -5ME) get more profit than (1 Mackinaw sell price) - (3 Datacore Cost) - Build cost at -4ME? If so, use the decryptor.
Ikserak tai	Posted - 2010.03.24 20:04:00 - [3] Some players say to use decryptors only when inventing ship BPC's, nothing else will come close to matching the investment you need to make. On the other hand, if you've got a bunch of decryptors lying around from exploration you can be blind to their market value and just toss 'em in to see what happens. Your accountant may frown mightily, but if you're tossing the dice doing invention anyway, you might end up with a 100+ run BPC and laugh like hell. YOU'VE NEVER ROCKED 'TIL YOU'VE UNDOCKED.
knfuldt grebnox	Posted - 2010.03.24 21:30:00 - [4] On some ships (not all) a final ME of -3 or -2 is worth the investment. I didn't find anything else worth using a decryptor on with the exception of arkonor II crystals which is optimally invented using the max run decryptor. However as the poster above mentioned there is no universal answer. You just have to do the math/program an excell sheet yourself.
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.03.24 21:47:00 - [5] Originally by: Ikserak tai Your accountant may frown mightily, but if you're tossing the dice doing invention anyway, you might end up with a 100+ run BPC and laugh like hell. Best you'll get with a modual BPC is 19, so no you wouldn't be better off enough to make it woth more than slapping it on a ship BPC and seeing what happens. As for ship BPC's if it's cruiser or higher why not, frigate's mmmmmmmaybe but I don't bother.
ChaoticDemon	Posted - 2010.03.24 22:33:00 - [6] Tellenta I bet you a billion isk I can invent a module with over 19 runs
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.03.24 23:22:00 - [7] Originally by: ChaoticDemon Tellenta I bet you a billion isk I can invent a module with over 19 runs Noted, I'll chock this up as me being wrong. do the decryptors on modules have a X10 effect then compared to what they do with ships? If so then awesome, definitely going to take advantage of that.
ChaoticDemon	Posted - 2010.03.24 23:36:00 - [8] You can sometimes find old bpc's on contracts with more then current max runs. For example I have a bunch of 1000 run bpc's that when invented will give 33 runs with no decrypter
Kati Kirjasto	Posted - 2010.03.24 23:44:00 - [9] Yeah, I think the best way to go is to get your own decryptors from exploration sites. That way you can use them for free. Best way to maximize ship building profits? Vertical integration. Mine your own minerals, build your own ships, get your own datacores from agents, and find your own decryptors. If you can mine moon goo, do that too. Then when you sell the ship - its ALL PROFIT!!!!!!!!
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.25 00:32:00 - [10] Originally by: Kati Kirjasto That way you can use them for free. Quoting this to point out how amazingly wrong this is. This is EXACTLY like saying "It's free because I mined it myself!", which is also incorrect. Those decyrptors still have market value. You could have sold them for however much they were worth instead of using them in your invention job. If you adding them to the invention job doesn't net you more isk as a result, you just lost isk compared to selling the decryptor. --- DesuSigs

SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.03.25 00:44:00 - [11] Originally by: Horchan Originally by: Kati Kirjasto That way you can use them for free. Quoting this to point out how amazingly wrong this is. Quoting this to point out what an amazing understatement it is. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Kati Kirjasto	Posted - 2010.03.25 00:45:00 - [12] Originally by: Horchan words....words....uh, huh-huh...words You're not making any sense at all, mate. If you get all the 'stuff' to make a Vagabond for free - and then you make a Vagabond and sell it for 140M ISK. THATS ALL PROFIT. Or, maybe you get most of it for free, and have to buy the moon goo - well that means the Vagabond's profit is 140M ISK - cost of the moon goo....PRETTY DARN GOOD. Best part, is you can undercut all the other suppliers and still get rich. Hell, you can even sell to the buy orders and make a profit. Sell a Vagabond for 70M, and STILL make a nice profit. I've made several billion ISK this way, so trust me it works.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.03.25 00:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Kati Kirjasto Originally by: Horchan words....words....uh, huh-huh...words You're not making any sense at all, mate. If you get all the 'stuff' to make a Vagabond for free - and then you make a Vagabond and sell it for 140M ISK. THATS ALL PROFIT. Or, maybe you get most of it for free, and have to buy the moon goo - well that means the Vagabond's profit is 140M ISK - cost of the moon goo....PRETTY DARN GOOD. Best part, is you can undercut all the other suppliers and still get rich. Hell, you can even sell to the buy orders and make a profit. Sell a Vagabond for 70M, and STILL make a nice profit. I've made several billion ISK this way, so trust me it works. And now I'm quoting this strictly to immortalize it, because it's just that funny, and he/she has no idea why it's funny, which makes it that much more funny. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.03.25 01:26:00 - [14] Edited by: Tellenta on 25/03/2010 01:34:14 Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Originally by: Kati Kirjasto Originally by: Horchan words....words....uh, huh-huh...words You're not making any sense at all, mate. If you get all the 'stuff' to make a Vagabond for free - and then you make a Vagabond and sell it for 140M ISK. THATS ALL PROFIT. Or, maybe you get most of it for free, and have to buy the moon goo - well that means the Vagabond's profit is 140M ISK - cost of the moon goo....PRETTY DARN GOOD. Best part, is you can undercut all the other suppliers and still get rich. Hell, you can even sell to the buy orders and make a profit. Sell a Vagabond for 70M, and STILL make a nice profit. I've made several billion ISK this way, so trust me it works. And now I'm quoting this strictly to immortalize it, because it's just that funny, and he/she has no idea why it's funny, which makes it that much more funny. hmm some wurdz with the picture. Applications of Opportunity Cost The concept of opportunity cost has a wide range of applications including: * Consumer choice * Production possibilities * Cost of capital * Time management * Career choice * Analysis of comparative advantage
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:35:00 - [15] (Minerals I mine are free) ----- Regarding high-sec mining: Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr 3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
Olusegun Obasanjo Minmatar CENTRAL BANK OF NIGERIA	Posted - 2010.03.25 03:52:00 - [16] this is funny because several of you so obviously got trolled. 7/10... for the bites
Millimage Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.03.25 06:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Kati Kirjasto Best part, is you can undercut all the other suppliers and still get rich. Hell, you can even sell to the buy orders and make a profit. Sell a Vagabond for 70M, and STILL make a nice profit. I've made several billion ISK this way, so trust me it works. QFT. I've made billions from this also. Mind you, I'm not an inventor or a manufacturer... ______________________ My EVE blog
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.03.25 11:12:00 - [18] The troll is one of the most informative replies so far. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Victor Valka Caldari Preta Light Industries Naraka.	Posted - 2010.03.25 11:46:00 - [19] Originally by: MouthP1ece ...but am looking into moving into some ship production... Don't. Most T2 ships sell at a loss if built from invented BPCs. I know this because I have this little spreadsheet that shows me the profit for all ship-decryptor combinations. Most of it is in the red. Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Agent Unknown Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.25 12:42:00 - [20] Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MouthP1ece ...but am looking into moving into some ship production... Don't. Most T2 ships sell at a loss if built from invented BPCs. I know this because I have this little spreadsheet that shows me the profit for all ship-decryptor combinations. Most of it is in the red. Yay for CCP screwing up T2 production rather than fixing it.... There's also the chance an invention that uses the decryptor will fail, so you'll lose even more money. Oh, and yes, opportunity cost is important too. Who wants to do every step of the process when they could make money some other way and buy the materials to build it? By the way, this is my signature. TeamSpeak For EVE - API-controlled TeamSpeak 3 Access!

Maria Yumeno	Posted - 2010.03.25 12:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MouthP1ece ...but am looking into moving into some ship production... Don't. Most T2 ships sell at a loss if built from invented BPCs. I know this because I have this little spreadsheet that shows me the profit for all ship-decryptor combinations. Most of it is in the red. What skills do you have? some of the ships go for good profit....wait a minute...i see what u are doing here....carry on.
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.03.25 16:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Maria Yumeno Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MouthP1ece ...but am looking into moving into some ship production... Don't. Most T2 ships sell at a loss if built from invented BPCs. I know this because I have this little spreadsheet that shows me the profit for all ship-decryptor combinations. Most of it is in the red. What skills do you have? some of the ships go for good profit....wait a minute...i see what u are doing here....carry on. I to would like his statement to remain popular belief.
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.03.25 20:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Olusegun Obasanjo this is funny because several of you so obviously got trolled. 7/10... for the bites I thought trolling involved getting the counter poster to get upset. Has the definition of trolling been watered down so drastically that if someone posts a reply they have succeeded? Kids these days. I weep for the future.
Victor Valka Caldari Preta Light Industries Naraka.	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:26:00 - [24] Originally by: Tellenta Originally by: Maria Yumeno Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MouthP1ece ...but am looking into moving into some ship production... Don't. Most T2 ships sell at a loss if built from invented BPCs. I know this because I have this little spreadsheet that shows me the profit for all ship-decryptor combinations. Most of it is in the red. What skills do you have? some of the ships go for good profit....wait a minute...i see what u are doing here....carry on. I to would like his statement to remain popular belief. Hence quantifier 'most'. It also depends on how rigorous your calculations are. Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Faia Arashi	Posted - 2010.03.26 17:42:00 - [25] Originally by: Kati Kirjasto If you get all the 'stuff' to make a Vagabond for free - and then you make a Vagabond and sell it for 140M ISK. THATS ALL PROFIT. If someone GIVES you a Vagabond for free - and you sell it for 140M ISK. That's all profit. Mined minerals are only free if your time has no value.
Tylwyth Teg Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.26 19:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Faia Arashi Originally by: Kati Kirjasto If you get all the 'stuff' to make a Vagabond for free - and then you make a Vagabond and sell it for 140M ISK. THATS ALL PROFIT. If someone GIVES you a Vagabond for free - and you sell it for 140M ISK. That's all profit. Mined minerals are only free if your time has no value. No. You got it wrong too......your time is valuable, but the minerals could be sold giving you a "value" for the minerals. Using them to build something is the same as BUYING them for what they could be sold for. Your time cost in procuring them is of no importance. You are playing a game. You already factored the time cost equation in your own life and the time cost to play the game must be outweighed by fun. When people argue that minerals are not free, they mean the value of the minerals before they are made into items in the game. Just because you did not pay ISK for them does not make them "free." They have a value on the market and as such, must be factored in at that value. For example: You mine stuff to make a ship. Those minerals could be sold for 20million ISK. You build the minerals into a ship that you sell for 18million. You just lost 2million ISK. That is to say you COULD have made more by selling them. Your time IS valuable, and I account all time spent in EVE as (COST OF PLEX)/(24*30) == hourly cost. If what you do is not greater than the cost to actually play the game you are losing ISK.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.03.26 19:19:00 - [27] Originally by: Tylwyth Teg A bunch of stuff that's completely right. What he said. For instance, with decryptors, if you're making modules you would almost always - possibly always, even - make more by simply selling the decryptor and doing decryptor-less invention. On a tangential note, I think it's one aspect of invention that could really use some tweaking. I'm not sure what would be required, but I would like to see decryptors be useful on a much larger variety of jobs than they presently are. It seems odd that there's an aspect of the invention system that it's financially wise to simply ignore on the vast majority of jobs. Of course, the downside of tweaking them to be useful on more jobs could be that they become necessary on those jobs, which wouldn't be good, either. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Faia Arashi	Posted - 2010.03.27 01:17:00 - [28] You are confusing cost and value. Aside from market fluctuations, value does not change. Cost changes based on method of acquisition. If you buy minerals, at that time cost does equal value. If you mine for minerals, the value does not change, but the cost is now the time it took for mining (plus amortized cost of equipment, plus amortized cost of the skills to run said equipment, but eventually amortized costs are "paid off" and subsequent minerals only cost time). If you assume it takes 2 hours to mine 20M ISK worth of minerals and: Sell the minerals for 20M ISK, then your time can be given a value of 10M/hour. Use the minerals to build a ship which you then sell for 18M, your time is now worth 9M/hour. You have said that your time has value, that is not in dispute. If someone else says that mined minerals are "free" then what they are really saying is that their time has no value.
Enthral	Posted - 2010.03.27 02:24:00 - [29] All trolling aside, invention (and industry in general) is largely about being a spreadsheet warrior. You're not going to get any serious answers to your question, because we'll just be doing your work for you, and all we'll get out of it is another competitor in the market. Sure you can dabble and tinker, and have a lot of fun doing so, but don't expect to get into the "advanced game" without breaking out a spreadsheet from time to time. :) As for the question of "free" decryptors, how you value your belongings is your own business. It has been my experience, however, that I tend to make more isk selling my decryptors and just inventing without them. But do your own math. If you decide to consider your decryptors free and burn up a ton of them inventing some T2 ammo, be my guest. Less decryptors on the market means I can sell mine for more. ;-) That said, if your profit margins are so small that you need to neglect the value of some of your materials so your margins look better on paper, I suggest you either get a job in the US financial sector as a corporate accountant, or find something to invent where the profits are a bit less vague. ;-)
MouthP1ece	Posted - 2010.03.27 07:48:00 - [30] Originally by: Arous Drephius Just do the math really. Does (5 * Mackinaw sell price) - (2 * (Datacore Cost + Decryptor Cost)) - (5 * Build cost at -5ME) get more profit than (1 Mackinaw sell price) - (3 Datacore Cost) - Build cost at -4ME? If so, use the decryptor. Thank you all for some very useful answers and some very obvious trolling :P As to this point - can someone point me to the formula or a tool that will help me figure out what effect the different levels of ML have on a BPO? I know that most (all?) invented BPO's are -4 ML, how can i figure out - to be a spreadsheet warrior - what -3 ML does to that? Thanks again :)



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