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Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
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Posted - 2010.04.07 13:53:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Tomarix Vindigo
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 04/04/2010 14:48:46
I think the bonus to medium hybrid turrets bonus should be changed to a 7.5% bonus to drone MWD speed per level . In PvP or PvE, no one fits medium hybrid guns on the Ishtar because fitting utility, autos or smaller guns is simply much more effective.
Gallente deserve a ship that is a 100% drone boat, including all bonuses to drones.
No one? Wrong. I fit 3 T2 medium rails with no problem at all. I run a capstable T2 repper still. I don't get your point here. The guns up my damage and aggro the ships.
Not supported!
I dont think the OP has mission running in mind, I dont think most of the people who supported the idea do either.
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.04.08 05:39:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Gneeznow
Originally by: Tomarix Vindigo
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 04/04/2010 14:48:46
I think the bonus to medium hybrid turrets bonus should be changed to a 7.5% bonus to drone MWD speed per level . In PvP or PvE, no one fits medium hybrid guns on the Ishtar because fitting utility, autos or smaller guns is simply much more effective.
Gallente deserve a ship that is a 100% drone boat, including all bonuses to drones.
No one? Wrong. I fit 3 T2 medium rails with no problem at all. I run a capstable T2 repper still. I don't get your point here. The guns up my damage and aggro the ships.
Not supported!
I dont think the OP has mission running in mind, I dont think most of the people who supported the idea do either.
You do realize that you still would be able to use those guns to aggro the rats. As far as DPS goes, the faster drones can go from target to target, the faster your over all DPS for that mission is?
I had missions/carebearing along with PvP in mind when I made the suggestion.
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.04.19 11:03:00 -
[33]
Lets get this worthless bonus changed guys. Needs more thumbs up please. 
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Dogfighter
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Posted - 2010.04.19 11:31:00 -
[34]
signed
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Manfred Rickenbocker
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Posted - 2010.04.19 20:09:00 -
[35]
I do hope you realize what you are proposing here: without the 5% damage bonus, the Iskhur has sub-200 DPS with max skills and 3x Neutron IIs. You are removing the equivalent of a MFSII. Thats a LOT of DPS for a frigate, particularly an assault frigate. Furthermore, since you will typically fighting at close(er) ranges, the MWD bonus would barely, if ever, be used. This would be purely a PVE change, which is wholly unneeded. If you could bring an Ishkur, why not bring a Vexor or an Ishtar and do a better job? The Ishkur is considered the best AS for a reason: drones and gun DPS combined with a little versatility added to the mix. If you'd have wanted to change the bonus, move it to a drone damage bonus maybe, that would keep it even.
All that said, its an Assault Ship. They all need a revisit. Let them be fixed all in one swoop and check them later.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.19 20:11:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
I do hope you realize what you are proposing here: without the 5% damage bonus, the Iskhur has sub-200 DPS with max skills and 3x Neutron IIs. You are removing the equivalent of a MFSII. Thats a LOT of DPS for a frigate, particularly an assault frigate. Furthermore, since you will typically fighting at close(er) ranges, the MWD bonus would barely, if ever, be used. This would be purely a PVE change, which is wholly unneeded. If you could bring an Ishkur, why not bring a Vexor or an Ishtar and do a better job? The Ishkur is considered the best AS for a reason: drones and gun DPS combined with a little versatility added to the mix. If you'd have wanted to change the bonus, move it to a drone damage bonus maybe, that would keep it even.
All that said, its an Assault Ship. They all need a revisit. Let them be fixed all in one swoop and check them later.
Ishkur != Ishtar
Just a few letters, but the difference is huge.
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Scoop EMP
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Posted - 2010.04.20 12:02:00 -
[37]
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.20 12:44:00 -
[38]
You are basing the argument on people not using the gun slots which can be done for a massive amount of ships.
As part of a larger round of balancing perhaps, but not on its own.
Small selection of ships in similar situation:
Maller.
Augoror.
Scythe.
Bellicose.
Probably loads more if one goes through the complete roster looking for "useless" bonuses.
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cBOLTSON
Caldari
Shadow Legion.
Talos Coalition
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Posted - 2010.04.21 10:19:00 -
[39]
Hey come on now your forgetting the most useless ship of them all! (and most ugly) The osprey! Unless your a miner....
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.04.21 10:36:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
You are basing the argument on people not using the gun slots which can be done for a massive amount of ships.
As part of a larger round of balancing perhaps, but not on its own.
Small selection of ships in similar situation:
Maller.
Augoror.
Scythe.
Bellicose.
Probably loads more if one goes through the complete roster looking for "useless" bonuses.
I understand what you are saying, but I was really wanting to focus on a T2 ship that would be more easily changed than try for some massive broad stroke on all kinds of ship bonus changes.
If they only have to worry about balancing one ship then the chance of it happening is much higher than say, 10 ships or something.
We need more love from drone users in this thread people. Where is the support?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.21 11:04:00 -
[41]
leave the bellicose. need that to kill dramiels lol. :)
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Nestor Laurenitis
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2010.04.21 15:00:00 -
[42]
Would approve again.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.21 15:31:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/04/2010 15:31:27
Either trade the bonus for some other useful bonus (resist/rep/drone mwd speed/drone tracking/etc) or give it the fittings to do something with those turret slots. Also, 4 turrets not 3.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.21 15:40:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/04/2010 15:31:27
Either trade the bonus for some other useful bonus (resist/rep/drone mwd speed/drone tracking/etc) or give it the fittings to do something with those turret slots. Also, 4 turrets not 3.
-Liang
the 4th bonus is pretty much wish full thinking ... an ishtar can already sport 600 dps from drones and guns (light tank though)
it doesnt need more. other hacs barely scratch the 450 dps the ishtar gets from drones alone.
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Manfred Rickenbocker
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Posted - 2010.04.21 17:05:00 -
[45]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
...
Ishkur != Ishtar
Just a few letters, but the difference is huge.
*scratches head* Thats what I get for posting with a hangover I guess.
In any case, the gun bonus can prove its utility in certain cases particularly when you want to up the ganky-ness of the Ishtar. The problem is that you are unlikely to use rails and will lean towards blasters which have their own set of problems. In all seriousness, the MWD bonus sounds nice in theory however it seems marginalized by the fact that once drones are on target, it goes unused. It would be interesting to see how often the drones need to pulse their MWDs in PVP to keep up with an equivalent ship, such as a Vagabond. If the Ishtar can get Berzerker IIs to do proportionate damage to the Vaga, then you have a useful bonus.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Marlona Sky
D00M.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.04.21 17:08:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
In any case, the gun bonus can prove its utility in certain cases particularly when you want to up the ganky-ness of the Ishtar.
I mean no offence, but please post your non-fail Ishtar fit that utilizes the +5% to medium hybrids.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.21 17:14:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
In any case, the gun bonus can prove its utility in certain cases particularly when you want to up the ganky-ness of the Ishtar.
I mean no offence, but please post your non-fail Ishtar fit that utilizes the +5% to medium hybrids.
a gank ishtar with electron blasters and 800mm plate?:p
relies on RR though. the less dps fit with 1600mm plate and dual light pulse.
Quote:
[Ishtar, gankme]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Explosive Hardener II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Sensor Booster II
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5
I left out the remaining drones. 631 dps. sounds respectable no?:)
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.21 17:20:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/04/2010 17:22:31
Originally by: darius mclever
the 4th bonus is pretty much wish full thinking ... an ishtar can already sport 600 dps from drones and guns (light tank though)
it doesnt need more. other hacs barely scratch the 450 dps the ishtar gets from drones alone.
Yes, I always like comparing pure gank Ishtars that get one volleyed by AC Hurricanes to all the other HACs in pure tank configuration. 
-Liang
Ed: Seeing your Ishtar fit that uses the 5% hybrid bonus: It's a fail fit. First, Electron blasters are pure utter fail because of low damage combined with incredibly low range and insufficient tracking for that range. Second, it's armor tanked - which totally invalidates any purpose you might have in using an Ishtar for this.
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.21 17:26:00 -
[49]
Edited by: darius mclever on 21/04/2010 17:26:39
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/04/2010 17:22:31
Originally by: darius mclever
the 4th bonus is pretty much wish full thinking ... an ishtar can already sport 600 dps from drones and guns (light tank though)
it doesnt need more. other hacs barely scratch the 450 dps the ishtar gets from drones alone.
Yes, I always like comparing pure gank Ishtars that get one volleyed by AC Hurricanes to all the other HACs in pure tank configuration.
even with dual light pulse lasers the ishtar has 540 dps. and 450 dps without any extra turret. mind to share e.g. a cerb fit that gets anywhere near that? best i could get was about 440 dps with scourge fury and 3 BCS.
Quote:
Ed: Seeing your Ishtar fit that uses the 5% hybrid bonus: It's a fail fit. First, Electron blasters are pure utter fail because of low damage combined with incredibly low range and insufficient tracking for that range. Second, it's armor tanked - which totally invalidates any purpose you might have in using an Ishtar for this.
did you notice i said ... it relies on RR ... and people use armor tanked ishtars with RR a lot. dont tell me you still live in the pre QR time with shield extenders and nano.
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.21 17:39:00 -
[50]
Originally by: darius mclever
Edited by: darius mclever on 21/04/2010 17:26:39
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/04/2010 17:22:31
Originally by: darius mclever
the 4th bonus is pretty much wish full thinking ... an ishtar can already sport 600 dps from drones and guns (light tank though)
it doesnt need more. other hacs barely scratch the 450 dps the ishtar gets from drones alone.
Yes, I always like comparing pure gank Ishtars that get one volleyed by AC Hurricanes to all the other HACs in pure tank configuration.
even with dual light pulse lasers the ishtar has 540 dps. and 450 dps without any extra turret. mind to share e.g. a cerb fit that gets anywhere near that? best i could get was about 440 dps with scourge fury and 3 BCS.
Quote:
Ed: Seeing your Ishtar fit that uses the 5% hybrid bonus: It's a fail fit. First, Electron blasters are pure utter fail because of low damage combined with incredibly low range and insufficient tracking for that range. Second, it's armor tanked - which totally invalidates any purpose you might have in using an Ishtar for this.
did you notice i said ... it relies on RR ... and people use armor tanked ishtars with RR a lot. dont tell me you still live in the pre QR time with shield extenders and nano.
Now please show me a Cerb who`s DMG can be killed by the other ships like the Heavy Drones, and then realize that Heavys arent always the best since you will be attacking smaller ships...Cerb or Zealot or any of the others Can hit them.
Your comparisons between things suck Darius...Im sorry but instead of comparing Apples to Apples you are always like Apples to The Banana Boat
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"If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed"
-Me
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.21 17:46:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Kail Storm
Now please show me a Cerb who`s DMG can be killed by the other ships like the Heavy Drones, and then realize that Heavys arent always the best since you will be attacking smaller ships...Cerb or Zealot or any of the others Can hit them.
Your comparisons between things suck Darius...Im sorry but instead of comparing Apples to Apples you are always like Apples to The Banana Boat
cerbs damage can be destroyed by enough smart bombing. (yeah for missiles dying to smart bombs)
you can tracking disrupt the zealot.
oh and yes drone users are really penalized by the fact that they can choose the correctly sized drones for a target. I feel sorry for you!
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.21 18:01:00 -
[52]
Originally by: darius mclever
cerbs damage can be destroyed by enough smart bombing. (yeah for missiles dying to smart bombs)
Yes, and drones are destroyed by smartbombs and guns.
Quote:
you can tracking disrupt the zealot.
Or you can damp it or jam it or disrupt it or just volley it.
Quote:
oh and yes drone users are really penalized by the fact that they can choose the correctly sized drones for a target. I feel sorry for you!
Yes, because missiles have such trouble dealing damage and only drone ships have a drone bay.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
lilrez
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
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Posted - 2010.04.22 08:12:00 -
[53]
Drone rate of fire bonus?
Either way, supported. |
Manfred Rickenbocker
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Posted - 2010.04.22 17:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
In any case, the gun bonus can prove its utility in certain cases particularly when you want to up the ganky-ness of the Ishtar.
I mean no offence, but please post your non-fail Ishtar fit that utilizes the +5% to medium hybrids.
No offense taken. I actually havent used an Ishtar because they are difficult to fit in the first place, as are most Gallente T2 ships. I can understand wanting to replace the gun bonus, however I dont know what would be a valid thing to change it to. It might just be easier to propose that CCP up the powergrid and render the argument moot.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.04.22 21:01:00 -
[55]
I always loved the way eople argue- some are complaining about a bonus that is useless- which is true, others are saying that the ship is "good enough".. You do realise that has nothing to do with the topic? The topic is not asking for a buff. The topick is saying that one of the bonuces is badly designed and is nearly useless, therefore it should be changed which is completely logical. Therefore i support this motion.
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Battlingbean
Heaven's Gate
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Posted - 2010.04.22 21:52:00 -
[56]
5% damage to hybrids isn't that bad a bonus. No one says you have to armor tank and thus have the PG for guns. It's not useless if you decide to use it...
3x Heavy Neutron Blaster II
1x Core Probe Launcher I (Offline)
1x Small 'Solace' ... armor rep (Offline)
1x Warp Scrambler II
2x Large Shield Extender II
1x 10MN Afterburner II
1x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
1x Damage control II
2x Power Diagnostic II
2x Shield Power Relay II
2x Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
5x Valkyrie II
5x Hammerhead II
5x Ogre II
5x Warrior II
5x Vespa EC-600
5x light armor Maintenance bot I(II)
This fit is great cause it uses my Caldari skills and fully uses all the bonuses of the ship.
Also boost hybrids!!!
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.22 22:07:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Battlingbean
1x 10MN Afterburner II
The M in MWD stands for Mandatory.
Quote:
2x Shield Power Relay II
....... Hi Failfit, nice to meet you! May I kindly suggest replacing that with a pair of magfield stabs - though I understand your Caldari skills may have taught you to fit a full rack of SPRs on all your ships.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.22 22:17:00 -
[58]
god Liang Nuren, ... especially in times of warp scrambler nuking mwds, the AB makes a lot of sense. especially in lowsec. there are a lot of viable AB setups now.
AB helps you sig radius tanking (especially against bigger targets)
You can try speed tanking even with 2 pt scram on you.
just a thought.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.22 22:49:00 -
[59]
Originally by: darius mclever
god Liang Nuren, ... especially in times of warp scrambler nuking mwds, the AB makes a lot of sense. especially in lowsec. there are a lot of viable AB setups now.
No, there really aren't a lot of viable AB setups. See, the big problem with them is that some jackass in a plated battleship is gonna be going twice your speed... and you will not escape. Furthermore, that particular fit was utter garbage.
Quote:
AB helps you sig radius tanking (especially against bigger targets)
Yeah - especially with those shield rigs and extenders! Really makes for an awesome sig tank! AWESOME!
Quote:
You can try speed tanking even with 2 pt scram on you.
Dual prop if you're really that concerned - but an AB means that you're not only going to be facing a 2pt scram but a dozen webs from the battleships that are outrunning your slow ass.
Quote:
just a thought.
Careful - efforts like that may hurt you.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.22 23:04:00 -
[60]
Show me the plated BS fit that outruns an AB ishtar when the 2pt scram switched off the MWD.
even with 1 web you still go 212m/s if you get caught by more than one web. bad luck.
but then it is also safe to assume that you got atleast one 2pt scram on you. that means your MWDing ishtar is even slower than the AB ishtar. doh.
sig radius increase of the 2 LSE/2 shield rig fit is 145 -> 214. which is still ~50% of the sig radius of BS weapons. so you still get 50% dmg reduction from sig radius. your mwding ishtar has 870m sig radius.
enough number crunching for today. time to blow up some sh*t. see you in space.
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