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Dimitrios Ypsilanti
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Posted - 2010.04.08 18:25:00 -
[1]
So, there are all these Navy Frigate threads and they've all kind of saying the same thing:
"I've got this (Hookbill, Comet, Firetail, Slicer...) will it work if I use this (Officer, Deadspace, Faction...) fit and add some (Crystals, Boosters, Implants, Gang Bonuses...)? It only costs a quarter of a billion ISK and I think I can take out pooly fit Jaguars with it."
These ships would be viable priced somewhere around tech 1 cruisers, but at a base cost of 35 million what's the point?
I've got a Firetail that I use as a bling-bling highsec shuttle.
Should we expect nothing more and just stop messing with them?
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Sangeli
Gallente
Space Explorations and Excavations
Galactic Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.04.08 18:52:00 -
[2]
i think rarety plays into the value of the ship rather than combat ability
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:01:00 -
[3]
Navy frigates would be pretty damn nice if ccp didn't decide to make them pretty much require pricy faction kit to perform acceptably. It's like they redid all the stats and then after t2 fitting them they took away just enough fittings to make it impossible to t2 fit them.  The slicer would be uber if it wasn't for the fact the only long point you can fit on the thing is a domi point and still have enough cpu left for the rest of the slots. But this is all moot as even if they didn't have massive fitting issues everyone would still fly dramiels. 
 Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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NoNah
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:02:00 -
[4]
I t2/deadspace fit mine, and they're quite fun for pvp. Even if the dramiel and daredevil renders most of them obsolete. I fly it because it's fun rather than effective, if all I wanted was costefficiency there's to date no point in flying anything but t1 battleships. Ever.
Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 329781
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Dimitrios Ypsilanti
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:10:00 -
[5]
Personally I think they should get performance bonuses when used with their faction fittings.
Firetail would receive some sort of bonus for using RF guns, ammo, AB, MWD etc... Ditto the other ships.
Would make fitting them a bit more interesting and they would see more use.
Barring that idea I think they should just be a lot cheaper.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:15:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti
Barring that idea I think they should just be a lot cheaper.
Even at 5 mil a hull you are still going to have to put in several tens of millions or moar in faction kit on them to make them worth undocking. No, the navy frigates issues have nothing to do with its price which is set by the sellers anyways so even with a drop in lp needed to get them they would still go for whatever people are willing to pay.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:24:00 -
[7]
What you say is largely true but not totally. The slicer for example is great but you can't fit a t2 disruptor on it. You must either use a t1 or a republic fleet (or equivalent). I went the cheap route, faint warp disruptor I. It's not ideal, but it works. It's inferior to a dramiel but superior to a crusader for whatever that's worth. I use it for hunting other frigates mostly. The dramiel is still better at it but the slicer is pretty good at it too.
The comet can be fitted a little bit easier with the same basic setup and it can squeeze in full t2 gear. But it's still terribly tight and it's a nano-fit I came up with. Not sure a tanked version would work.
The firetail is a complete joke as is the hookbill. Those two ships simply don't have the grid or CPU to fit frigate class modules. It's not close either, it's like they t2 fitted those then cut all the fitting resources in half. The really sad thing is before the navy ship changes, the firetail was actually pretty good. Their "buff" actually nerfed the **** out of it. Can't comment on the pre-change hookbill.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Viibl Triibl
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:31:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Viibl Triibl on 08/04/2010 19:32:42
It's not just a Navy problem.
I'd estimate about 70% of the ships in the game are somewhere between mediocre to useless, representing terrible values (cost / performance). Only the remaining 30% see serious, regular service. Within that, ~10 do most of the work. These come to mind:
- Drake
- Hurricane
- Rifter
- Armageddon
- Dominix
- Rupture
- Vexor
- Dramiel
- Raven
I guess something has to be the best, but it'd be nice if the others could be made more relevant without 3 years worth of SP and a few billion in equipment. Even then, using other ships is more a style choice than anything.
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Dimitrios Ypsilanti
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti
Barring that idea I think they should just be a lot cheaper.
Even at 5 mil a hull you are still going to have to put in several tens of millions or moar in faction kit on them to make them worth undocking. No, the navy frigates issues have nothing to do with its price which is set by the sellers anyways so even with a drop in lp needed to get them they would still go for whatever people are willing to pay.
Not sure I agree. Many toons with years in the game will still suit up in a Rifter from time to time. It's a fun ship and the "bang for the buck" calculation makes it worth the effort.
I think the Firetail can reasonably handle a Rifter one on one. Seems that if the price were just a bit higher than that of the Rifter you'd get people who would use it.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:59:00 -
[10]
The navy frigates after the revamp are designed for combat, to equal/fight/survive destroyers .. they are meant to be used/abused in FW in minor plexes where AFs can't get in.
When buying them from FW loyalty store they are practically free when you consider the ease with which you can get militia LP.
If you are not in a militia and have to get them off contracts you are screwed as prices are a fair bit higher than the actual cost ..
They are super-charged versions of the highest tier T1 frigates and should be treated as such .. if you want the OMG factor you go for pirate frigates ..
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.08 20:10:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti
Not sure I agree. Many toons with years in the game will still suit up in a Rifter from time to time. It's a fun ship and the "bang for the buck" calculation makes it worth the effort.
Many toons with years in the game are also stupid rich and treat faction and t2 like t1. I would never fly a rifter over a jag in any situation I can reasonably think of past a fw minor plex and that is where the navy frigates come into play.
Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti
I think the Firetail can reasonably handle a Rifter one on one. Seems that if the price were just a bit higher than that of the Rifter you'd get people who would use it.
Talk to the suppliers then as they set the price and not ccp. Or you could use a character slot to train up a quick and dirty bomber alt to put in fw and get them effectively for free once you hit level 4 missions. I can get up to three slicers per mission with my social skills and standing with the right mission or at least one if you get a crappy mission. Either way thats around 1 slicer every 15 minutes on average.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2010.04.08 20:11:00 -
[12]
A module put in their midslots?
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Jintra Jin'tak
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Vivisection.
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Posted - 2010.04.08 20:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
A module put in their midslots?
Well played. :D
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demonfurbie
Minmatar
The Maverick Navy
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.08 20:56:00 -
[14]
i love my fed comet now the others empire faction frigs i cant see much of a reason to fly
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.04.08 20:59:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/04/2010 20:59:37
On the upside, navy frigates often drop nice loot because they don't really fit without faction, so they're like miniature loot pinatas in that respect.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.08 21:17:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Zeba
.. The slicer would be uber if it wasn't for the fact the only long point you can fit on the thing is a domi point and still have enough cpu left for the rest of the slots..
It is so bad that it is almost as if CCP specifically tweaked the fittings to avoid a cheap near-OP fitting.
Works fine using T2 disruptor, DLP's and triple locus by the way, you lose a bit of range/damage but the tracking gods will smile on you in return for that sacrifice 
Originally by: Cpt Branko
On the upside, navy frigates often drop nice loot because they don't really fit without faction, so they're like miniature loot pinatas in that respect.
Dirty old pirate you! But there is truth in your words; the min-maxers who would sooner chop off a limb than accept a decrease in EFT numbers do tend to overindulge just a tad 
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ssssdd
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Posted - 2010.04.08 21:55:00 -
[17]
Edited by: ssssdd on 08/04/2010 21:56:58
Edited by: ssssdd on 08/04/2010 21:56:25
I think the reason for the price difference between the t1 and the navy frigs is that the navy frigs are easily tankable.......for example the slicer has 5 low slots while any t1 or even t2 frigs might have 3
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Nora Rage
Heroes.
Talos Coalition
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Posted - 2010.04.09 01:19:00 -
[18]
Seen some decent Comet Fits.
And it has the blue light so thats a great reason to fly it, probably.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2010.04.09 01:54:00 -
[19]
Hi thread ;D
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.09 03:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Zeba
.. The slicer would be uber if it wasn't for the fact the only long point you can fit on the thing is a domi point and still have enough cpu left for the rest of the slots..
It is so bad that it is almost as if CCP specifically tweaked the fittings to avoid a cheap near-OP fitting.
Works fine using T2 disruptor, DLP's and triple locus by the way, you lose a bit of range/damage but the tracking gods will smile on you in return for that sacrifice
If I wanted to do that I would just buy a freakin sader.. 
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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Revii Lagoon
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Posted - 2010.04.09 03:53:00 -
[21]
Go out to 0.0 and you will see where all the faction ships are actually used. Most faction ships have their uses in PVP, my Imperial Navy Slicer is a bit slower than an inty, but can pack the punch of an AF, all while outside the range of scram / web range. Faction Frigate's aren't a whole lot more expensive than T2 frigs, and they can perform similar roles with different perks.
And then there's the drameil.....
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superteds
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Posted - 2010.04.09 04:20:00 -
[22]
slicer has headlights so this thread is invalid.
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Dimitrios Ypsilanti
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Posted - 2010.04.09 15:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
The navy frigates after the revamp are designed for combat, to equal/fight/survive destroyers .. they are meant to be used/abused in FW in minor plexes where AFs can't get in.
When buying them from FW loyalty store they are practically free when you consider the ease with which you can get militia LP.
Ah.
This is the answer. It also explains why the fitting is so problematic on these ships. They require faction mods. Mods you can get cheaply through the LP store.
The only question left is: How do they keep the pirate frigs out of Faction Warfare? Seems like the Dramiel would be almost invincible when stacked up against a Hookbill.
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Don Pellegrino
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.04.10 01:12:00 -
[24]
Navy frigates perfectly fit their role to be in between an AF and an inty (except the Hookbill, it needs a little boost) and cost the same as those ships.
If you can't kill an AF with it, you're doing it wrong.
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Jintra Jin'tak
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Vivisection.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 23:38:00 -
[25]
Rail Comet and after you've killed enough Dramiel-Pinatas with it, Rail-DD tbh.
Nothing takes care of other frigs better than those 2. Unfortunately, with rails they're stuck on frigs/destros as targets. :/
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.11 06:25:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti
Ah.
This is the answer. It also explains why the fitting is so problematic on these ships. They require faction mods. Mods you can get cheaply through the LP store.
The only question left is: How do they keep the pirate frigs out of Faction Warfare? Seems like the Dramiel would be almost invincible when stacked up against a Hookbill.
I don't use faction mods on my Slicers at all, did in the beginning but when you burn through up to ten in a week it gets pricey even with the LP store discount on the ships
Downgrade weapons, use rigs, use named modules .. lots of ways to work around fitting constraints. Most/all best-named modules have same stats as T2 so you are not missing out on anything, even the price is similar on some modules.
Dramiel's are omni-present in FW. Very rarely do you see any other faction frigate other than Slicers (speedy Coercer with room for tackle, the wet dream!!!) and Dramiel's.
Almost all other small ships are Thrashers and Rifters with a few Griffins and assorted random T1 frigates thrown in.
I assume the Caldari/Gallente front has more Hookbills/Comets than Slicers, but haven't been over there in over a year so can't say for certain.
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Dimitrios Ypsilanti
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Posted - 2010.04.13 05:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Dramiel's are omni-present in FW. Very rarely do you see any other faction frigate other than Slicers (speedy Coercer with room for tackle, the wet dream!!!) and Dramiel's.
It's quotes like that that make me think the Dramiel is in for a nerf.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.13 06:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Dramiel's are omni-present in FW. Very rarely do you see any other faction frigate other than Slicers (speedy Coercer with room for tackle, the wet dream!!!) and Dramiel's.
It's quotes like that that make me think the Dramiel is in for a nerf.
The dram dies far too easily when the pilot screws up so I don't see ccp nerfing it. Instead I see them boosting the other pirate frigates to be just as good.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist
Yeah, it(Jaguar) almost has cruiser level tank and gank!
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.13 08:36:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Zeba
The dram dies far too easily when the pilot screws up so I don't see ccp nerfing it. Instead I see them boosting the other pirate frigates to be just as good.
They are practically impossible to kill in the plexing venue of FW. Pilot has to be half asleep and make a mistake on top to lose his ship.
Pirate frigates in minor plexes might as well be cruisers, that is how much more powerful they are when you have no large/medium neut, drone swarm or long range web options available.
Luckily the "leet PvP'ers" abusing that particular FoTM rarely come into plexes so not that much of an issue, they do dominate something fierce when they do though 
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AdZc
Caldari
Legio Prima Victrix
Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2010.04.13 08:52:00 -
[30]
Edited by: AdZc on 13/04/2010 08:55:32
Edited by: AdZc on 13/04/2010 08:55:06
Originally by: Sangeli
i think rarety plays into the value of the ship rather than combat ability
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