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Chuck Kodiak	Posted - 2010.04.08 19:41:00 - [1] So far in my short game experience I have a noticed a huge problem with this game. I play this game with my friends always have played online with the same group of friends this time we settled on EVE its a great game minus one thing. if I want to play in a small player corp with my friends there is nothing to stop all the people who have been playing for years and have 30 million skill points more than me from wardecking my corp and extorting money from us. if you don;t think this a problem I can count from my own corp at least 5-10 people who have moved to other games because of this and who will not come back till this is fixed. I like the idea that a corp can declare war on another corp but I think the reasons and the amount of skill points from one corps players compared to the others should be taken into account since this game is primarily about skill training at first. Perhaps a system of collateral would work where the wardecked corp can put up a sum of money that the opposing corp must match in order to continue the wardeck that would stop the extortionists as it would no longer be profitable or maybe a way to petition concord to intervene on a new corps behalf... just some ideas.
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.04.08 20:38:00 - [2] Originally by: Chuck Kodiak I like the idea that a corp can declare war on another corp but I think the reasons and the amount of skill points from one corps players compared to the others should be taken into account since this game is primarily about skill training at first. It is hard to interrupt skill training by wardeccing, isn't it... When you use so much flawed logic, it is too hard to take your ideas seriously.
Fel Wrath Amarr Unquestionable Power	Posted - 2010.04.08 21:00:00 - [3] Edited by: Fel Wrath on 08/04/2010 21:01:50 Edited by: Fel Wrath on 08/04/2010 21:01:23 I don't know about a collateral system. But war dec pricing based on ratio of cumulative sp of the attacking corp to the defending corp sounds interesting. Scenario A. Corp X - 10 members @ 30mil sp each - 300 mil sp cumulative Corp Y - 5 members @ 1mil sp each - 5mil sp cumulative Corp X has to pay C(300/5)base cost of wardec where C is some constant factor. However Scenario B. Corp X - 10 members @ 30mil sp each - 300 mil sp cumulative Corp Y - 500 members @ 1mil sp each - 500mil sp cumulative Corp X actually pays less..Corp X has an easy time picking off Corp Y small gangs but Corp Y would most likely win if its members cooperate and swarm Corp X. Either way corps with veteran players or corps with large numbers must pay more to wardec smaller noobier corps.
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2010.04.08 22:16:00 - [4] This idea has so many flaws (actually everything in it is flawed) that i won't even bother commenting :D Read latest "THE WORD"
Fel Wrath Amarr Unquestionable Power	Posted - 2010.04.08 22:21:00 - [5] Edited by: Fel Wrath on 08/04/2010 22:22:51 lol how about you humor me then with some constructive criticism.
Chuck Kodiak	Posted - 2010.04.08 22:34:00 - [6] Originally by: Di Mulle Originally by: Chuck Kodiak I like the idea that a corp can declare war on another corp but I think the reasons and the amount of skill points from one corps players compared to the others should be taken into account since this game is primarily about skill training at first. It is hard to interrupt skill training by wardeccing, isn't it... When you use so much flawed logic, it is too hard to take your ideas seriously. you make no sense
Chuck Kodiak	Posted - 2010.04.08 22:39:00 - [7] Originally by: Valandril This idea has so many flaws (actually everything in it is flawed) that i won't even bother commenting :D protecting new players from bullies in game is "flawed" how so? my general idea is to have a petition system set up so that new player corps can petition a gm and have them intervene if the situation is unfair what is wrong with that? the only people that will see something negative in this idea are the bullies in game who do this. and you commented so your post itself is flawed why comment and say "I'm not gonna comment"
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2010.04.08 22:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Chuck Kodiak Originally by: Valandril This idea has so many flaws (actually everything in it is flawed) that i won't even bother commenting :D protecting new players from bullies in game is "flawed" how so? my general idea is to have a petition system set up so that new player corps can petition a gm and have them intervene if the situation is unfair what is wrong with that? the only people that will see something negative in this idea are the bullies in game who do this. and you commented so your post itself is flawed why comment and say "I'm not gonna comment" Yes it is, welcome to eve where bullying is mandatory. If you don't like this - GB2STO Read latest "THE WORD"
Chuck Kodiak	Posted - 2010.04.08 22:52:00 - [9] Originally by: Valandril Originally by: Chuck Kodiak Originally by: Valandril This idea has so many flaws (actually everything in it is flawed) that i won't even bother commenting :D protecting new players from bullies in game is "flawed" how so? my general idea is to have a petition system set up so that new player corps can petition a gm and have them intervene if the situation is unfair what is wrong with that? the only people that will see something negative in this idea are the bullies in game who do this. and you commented so your post itself is flawed why comment and say "I'm not gonna comment" Yes it is, welcome to eve where bullying is mandatory. If you don't like this - GB2STO I like the game I said there was a flaw with the way new players are introduced the uglier side of it if you guys that have been playing for 8 years non stop and live eve breathe eve and sleep eve want to pick on each other go right on ahead leave the people that are trying to figure out the game and get some training under their belts out of it just because you are "allowed" to do it doesn't mean that you should and it doesn't necessarily mean that just because things have always been like this that it shouldn't change stop attacking me in your posts please if you have constructive criticism I would be more than happy to hear it if you are gonna continue posting brainless "I can cus I can" posts then maybe you should GB2STO whatever that means.
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2010.04.08 23:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Chuck Kodiak Originally by: Valandril Originally by: Chuck Kodiak Originally by: Valandril This idea has so many flaws (actually everything in it is flawed) that i won't even bother commenting :D protecting new players from bullies in game is "flawed" how so? my general idea is to have a petition system set up so that new player corps can petition a gm and have them intervene if the situation is unfair what is wrong with that? the only people that will see something negative in this idea are the bullies in game who do this. and you commented so your post itself is flawed why comment and say "I'm not gonna comment" Yes it is, welcome to eve where bullying is mandatory. If you don't like this - GB2STO I like the game I said there was a flaw with the way new players are introduced the uglier side of it if you guys that have been playing for 8 years non stop and live eve breathe eve and sleep eve want to pick on each other go right on ahead leave the people that are trying to figure out the game and get some training under their belts out of it just because you are "allowed" to do it doesn't mean that you should and it doesn't necessarily mean that just because things have always been like this that it shouldn't change stop attacking me in your posts please if you have constructive criticism I would be more than happy to hear it if you are gonna continue posting brainless "I can cus I can" posts then maybe you should GB2STO whatever that means. Corporate Vote - Declare War Against Khorr Volka is a child molester From: Valandril Sent: 2010.04.08 23:01 Thats how creative i get Read latest "THE WORD"

Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2010.04.09 00:09:00 - [11] Originally by: Chuck Kodiak if I want to play in a small player corp with my friends there is nothing to stop all the people who have been playing for years and have 30 million skill points more than me from wardecking my corp and extorting money from us. There is one thing that can stop it - you. Your corp can avoid being a victim. There are ways to avoid this. I'm saying this as a member of a small corp that has never had this problem. My suggestion: learn to fly in 0.0 space. Your wardec "bullies" generally lack the stones to fly out here.
Fel Wrath Amarr Unquestionable Power	Posted - 2010.04.09 01:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Originally by: Chuck Kodiak if I want to play in a small player corp with my friends there is nothing to stop all the people who have been playing for years and have 30 million skill points more than me from wardecking my corp and extorting money from us. There is one thing that can stop it - you. Your corp can avoid being a victim. There are ways to avoid this. I'm saying this as a member of a small corp that has never had this problem. My suggestion: learn to fly in 0.0 space. Your wardec "bullies" generally lack the stones to fly out here. True but your corp may be the exception to the case. Kodiak's case simply shows that the current wardec model can turn away new players...and that's bad for bizzness. And Val you have yet to say anything useful.
Chuck Kodiak	Posted - 2010.04.09 03:14:00 - [13] Edited by: Chuck Kodiak on 09/04/2010 03:15:58 Corporate Vote - Declare War Against Khorr Volka is a child molester From: Valandril Sent: 2010.04.08 23:01 Thats how creative i get Lawl you'll be about as creative as the other guy that wardecks me on a daily basis I don't play by the rule of.... "hey I want to blow you up so come outside and let me do it" sorry you lose. I don't roleplay either so you will be disappointed if you try to go that route. Go ahead and wardeck me I am warning you right now your corp ceo won't be happy with the result. and thank you Fel
Grarr Dexx Amarr GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.04.09 03:27:00 - [14] You practically have to be a CEO to declare war, for your information. ___
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.04.09 03:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Chuck Kodiak if you don;t think this a problem I can count from my own corp at least 5-10 people who have moved to other games because of this And you have;t gone with them why? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Chuck Kodiak	Posted - 2010.04.09 03:54:00 - [16] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Originally by: Chuck Kodiak if you don;t think this a problem I can count from my own corp at least 5-10 people who have moved to other games because of this And you have;t gone with them why? the same reason your parents didn't abort you I'm too poor and I'm out of coat hangars.
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2010.04.09 05:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Chuck Kodiak Edited by: Chuck Kodiak on 09/04/2010 03:15:58 Corporate Vote - Declare War Against Khorr Volka is a child molester From: Valandril Sent: 2010.04.08 23:01 Thats how creative i get Lawl you'll be about as creative as the other guy that wardecks me on a daily basis I don't play by the rule of.... "hey I want to blow you up so come outside and let me do it" sorry you lose. I don't roleplay either so you will be disappointed if you try to go that route. Go ahead and wardeck me I am warning you right now your corp ceo won't be happy with the result. and thank you Fel Enjoy your 14.95$ station spinning game then. Read latest "THE WORD"
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.04.09 06:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Chuck Kodiak you make no sense please explain i never said wardecking interrupts skill training nor did I ever hint that this situation exists if you meant something please clarify but that is what I gathered from this post. Which of your OWN words : "since this game is primarily about skill training at first." you do not understand ? If this game is about skill training, train them ? Wardec hardly can break your training.
lookatzebirdie	Posted - 2010.04.09 06:39:00 - [19] Edited by: lookatzebirdie on 09/04/2010 06:40:22 Originally by: Fel Wrath True but your corp may be the exception to the case. Kodiak's case simply shows that the current wardec model can turn away new players...and that's bad for bizzness. Unfortunately for you or Kodiak, this game is marketed as tough and uncompromising. It's pvp is the toughest around in terms of loss and skill required, it's renowned for it's complexity and steep learning curve and it's well known that nowhere and noone is safe in Eve. To quote a CCP dev on the matter.. "Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, harsh universe, it's designed to be a cold, harsh universe." And while it's true that some new players may leave due to wardecs, there are many who do not and they are clearly more numerous than the quitters as Eve's steadily rising subscriptions clearly demonstrate. I put it to you that if they gave in to the the concerns of a few irritated wardec-ees they would in fact be HURTING THEIR BUSINESS as they would be diluting and so damaging their reputaition as the most uncompromising sandbox MMO around. It's up to you really, you can quit in frustration (no shame in that, Eve is not for everyone) or you can stick around and learn how to deal with it, pretty much everyone else in the game has done at some point and learned from it... your choice, CCP will not be removing the wardec system anytime soon.
Torothanax	Posted - 2010.04.09 06:55:00 - [20] I'm faily certain he means if you haven't had time to train skills you can't fight back effectively. He's absolutely right. My first two corps were war dec'ed constantly because all our players were under a year and under 5 mil sp. Mind you this was back in '06 when you started out with 500k sp or whatever it was and not double speed training. We were a bunch of noobs and didn't know anything about pvp tactics or how not to get podded. We didn't have the nav skills to warp off station before getting locked. We didn't know how to make an undock chute. We certainly didn't have the isk to hire a merc corp to fight for us. We wanted to play the game not sit in station. So we ended up getting blown to hell and podded repeatedly. Then we sat in station. I ended up losing a +3 implant I'd just purchased, which had taken me some 50 hours of boredom to earn enough isk to by. They weren't cheap like they are now back then. I almost quit over it. I'm glad I didn't but I was really ****ed. Both corps ended up losing most of thier members. Not just from the corp but from the game. Great way to keep people paying and playing. I'm sure they all recommended to everyone they know to go play EVE. "Here pay us $15 a month so you can sit in station and do nothing." Thanks for making that point btw Valandril. There really should some way to take average skill per player in corp and compare them. If the difference is to great, there should be some kinda of penalty for declaring war. Or maybe just keep it simple. If the average age of all players in corp is under a year, it's not eligable for a war dec. Obviously there are some possible exploits to that, but as the players in corp get older, it'd get harder and harder to keep the average under one year.

Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.04.09 07:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Torothanax There really should some way to take average skill per player in corp and compare them. If the difference is to great, there should be some kinda of penalty for declaring war. Or maybe just keep it simple. If the average age of all players in corp is under a year, it's not eligable for a war dec. Obviously there are some possible exploits to that, but as the players in corp get older, it'd get harder and harder to keep the average under one year. Of course there will be glaring exploits. Get a few years old mission runner to a corp, pack the corp with trial chars. Voila.
Chuck Kodiak	Posted - 2010.04.09 07:45:00 - [22] Enjoy your 14.95$ station spinning game then. Who said I had any intention of doing that.... and I play for free isk is easy to make in this game. wardeck me you'll see why I won't be sitting in a station, and I won't be getting blown up by you either. you still think that I am gonna follow some played out game decorum but I'm not. you will waste your time and money.... need I say more? does my corp name seem like a serious corp name to you if you had any intelligence you could probably figure it out on your own but until then I'll let you squirm with these really obvious clues and most likely still not be able to come up with the answer.
Chuck Kodiak	Posted - 2010.04.09 07:56:00 - [23] Originally by: lookatzebirdie Edited by: lookatzebirdie on 09/04/2010 06:40:22 Originally by: Fel Wrath True but your corp may be the exception to the case. Kodiak's case simply shows that the current wardec model can turn away new players...and that's bad for bizzness. Unfortunately for you or Kodiak, this game is marketed as tough and uncompromising. It's pvp is the toughest around in terms of loss and skill required, it's renowned for it's complexity and steep learning curve and it's well known that nowhere and noone is safe in Eve. To quote a CCP dev on the matter.. "Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, harsh universe, it's designed to be a cold, harsh universe." And while it's true that some new players may leave due to wardecs, there are many who do not and they are clearly more numerous than the quitters as Eve's steadily rising subscriptions clearly demonstrate. I put it to you that if they gave in to the the concerns of a few irritated wardec-ees they would in fact be HURTING THEIR BUSINESS as they would be diluting and so damaging their reputaition as the most uncompromising sandbox MMO around. It's up to you really, you can quit in frustration (no shame in that, Eve is not for everyone) or you can stick around and learn how to deal with it, pretty much everyone else in the game has done at some point and learned from it... your choice, CCP will not be removing the wardec system anytime soon. this is a suggestion forum I made a suggestion if you don't like my suggestion then go away I'm not complaining I'm making a suggestion I figured out long ago how to deal with *******s in this game I'm simply saying the opposite view of what your buddy did that in order to survive an mmo needs new player base as after a time the older player base gets bored and moves on. If you ignore the needs of your new players your MMO inevitable dies. I don't know of one new person to start playing this game because they knew everyone in it was a bunch of jerks who would take advantage of them and stop them from enjoying the game to the fullest. your comment is seriously ignorant. again it is a suggestion .. one that I have been attacked for making over and over which goes to show that the people most opposed to change are those that cause the need to change. they come out of the woodwork if they think their "rights" are gonna be taken away. but again this a suggestion people seem to forget that suggestion. yeah.....
Chuck Kodiak	Posted - 2010.04.09 08:10:00 - [24] Originally by: Di Mulle Originally by: Chuck Kodiak you make no sense please explain i never said wardecking interrupts skill training nor did I ever hint that this situation exists if you meant something please clarify but that is what I gathered from this post. Which of your OWN words : "since this game is primarily about skill training at first." you do not understand ? If this game is about skill training, train them ? Wardec hardly can break your training. you said the same thing as the guy above and it makes no sense obviously a wardeck can't break your skill training it is however not fair for me to have to fight guys with 30 million SP a piece when I have 2 million. I tried it hasn't worked out for me yet. I will repeat no where did I say or imply that wardecking a corp breaks skill training any other geniuses want to comment on this?
suspisious	Posted - 2010.04.09 08:45:00 - [25] Originally by: lookatzebirdie Unfortunately for you or Kodiak, this game is marketed as tough and uncompromising. It's pvp is the toughest around in terms of loss and skill required, it's renowned for it's complexity and steep learning curve and it's well known that nowhere and noone is safe in Eve. To quote a CCP dev on the matter.. "Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, harsh universe, it's designed to be a cold, harsh universe." Eve is also a game. And games are meant to be fun. Even for beginners. Eve is and should remain a tough place to live in. But I agree that the new players could use some protection from this sort of behaviour. So some big corp decided to wardec you. And you and your corp of new guys have no means whatsoever to do anything against it. no isk for hiring protection, cant make isk, because undocking will kill you, and you dont know how to defend yourself (yet). So your options are quit, disband, or wait till their bored. How nice. I think being able to petition a GM for obvious newbie bashing could be a good thing. Where to draw the line for when youre expected to be able to defend yourself will be tricky.
Torothanax	Posted - 2010.04.09 08:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Di Mulle Of course there will be glaring exploits. Get a few years old mission runner to a corp, pack the corp with trial chars. Voila. Yeah, but if it's a one man corp with a bunch of alts, what's the point? Why not just stay in an NPC corp?
lookatzebirdie	Posted - 2010.04.09 15:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Chuck Kodiak this is a suggestion forum I made a suggestion if you don't like my suggestion then go away I'm not complaining If this is a suggestion forum, the suggestions are open to discussion, that was my (non trolling, constructive) response. I do not have to go away, if your suggestion cannot stand rebuttal, it's not worth a whole lot is it ? Quote: I'm making a suggestion. I figured out long ago how to deal with *****s in this game I'm simply saying the opposite view of what your buddy did that in order to survive an mmo needs new player base as after a time the older player base gets bored and moves on. If you ignore the needs of your new players your MMO inevitably dies. First off I dunno who you mean by "your buddy", second, classifying anyone using wardecs in this way as ***S makes your argument entirely subjective and emotional...ie. rather unsound. Stick to making ur case without the name calling if you want your points to be taken seriously. Thirdly, I totally agree that if you ignore the needs of your new players you will run into problems. However, the wardec system clearly does not appear to be relevant here since it has been in place for years and Eve's subscriptions continue to rise, thus disproving your claim. Removing them or altering them in the way you suggested is the untested scenario and it's fair to say that an MMO successfully marketed on a platform of uncompromising gameplay risk hurting their subscriptions by diluting the reputation that brings people to the game and possibly turning away some off those that already play. Of course this is untested, that subs continue to rise despite the current wardec mechanics IS FACT. Quote: I don't know of one new person to start playing this game because they knew everyone in it was a bunch of jerks who would take advantage of them and stop them from enjoying the game to the fullest. your comment is seriously ignorant. That's a very obtuse perspective on the situation, I do know many many pilots who came to this game because of it's tough reputation. My previous post and this one have been based on THEFACTS while yours has been based on anecdotal evidence and name calling/emotional argument. I'd say it was your response to my post that is ignorant my friend. Quote:** again it is a suggestion .. one that I have been attacked for making over and over which goes to show that the people most opposed to change are those that cause the need to change. they come out of the woodwork if they think their "rights" are gonna be taken away. If you cannot read a well intended, constructive response to your suggestion such as mine, without feeling as though you have been attacked, I would suggest you don't post on the forum. Forums are for DISCUSSION and as such they are likely to contain opposing view points, get used to that or stop posting As far as the implication that anyone opposing your suggestion must be causing the problem (nice logical fallacy) I would say this. I have NEVER wardecced a noobplayer corp in hisec EVER. In my first 2 months in this game I was wardecced 3 times, my reaction to the first was that I wanted to fight, my reaction to the second was that I did fight, and my reaction to the third was to SUCCEED and kill the the wardeccer's very expensive command ship. I learned from it, hundreds if not thousands of other players have done the same. Eve is not going to die because of this, it's what makes it great and those that cannot cut it will not be missed, there are more than enough that can and do.
Altie McName	Posted - 2010.04.09 19:37:00 - [28] If you dislike wardecs, the npc corp is just what you desire, making your own corp is a privilege, not a right. Should this sound too harsh, that's a price you pay when you joined the game, try joining a large corp like Eve University to learn the basics and be better prepared to defend yourself. --- CCP wants you to HTFU!
Chuck Kodiak	Posted - 2010.04.09 23:30:00 - [29] Edited by: Chuck Kodiak on 09/04/2010 23:34:59 Edited by: Chuck Kodiak on 09/04/2010 23:34:12 Ok so you fall on the opposite side of the spectrum. "It happened to me so it should happen to everyone else and your not allowed to complain because it happened to me and I fought with all my might and was victorious I'm a HERO my story is how you should handle this situation" right? I never said everyone who wardecks a corp is an ***** I merely said I figured out how to deal with ***s in this game nice word twisting and that comment was directed at the guy threatening to wardeck my joke corp. I enjoy the rebuttal you posted it was intelligent and well thought out even though it argues the same argument that everyone uses which boils down to "this is eve get used to it". thats why I am replying to your post most heavily it poses the best argument against my case and it hurts. I made a suggestion on how to change the game that would be beneficial to new players. the fact that something has worked for years doesn't mean it will continue to work the facts represented by your argument are accurate no doubt that doesn't mean it has to continue that way fact fact fact fact fact fact heres an opinion of mine. most people that have had a problem with this mechanic and continued to play the game probably just overlooked the fact even though it **ed them off because they liked the game much akin to what I am doing. however I am voicing my opinion about it for myself and others that have quit this game because of this mechanic. next post I realize you can join a npc corp thanks I don't renew my game subscription with someone elses hard earned 15 dollars because I want to sit in an npc corp because if I don't I get wardecked by extortionists. thats just stupid making a player corp isn't a privelege I proved that I trained for a couple hours and made a joke corp if it was such a privilege why can I do this? so what you are saying is it is a privelege granted to everyone who plays eve, theres not a whole lot special about that privelege if anyone can do it. my game experience is defined by how I choose to play the game according to the rules laid out by the game creators. if you want to call making a player corp which is part of those mechanics a privelege maybe you should be posting on the suggestion forums to change the way player corps are handed out. me I'll stick to this war till I get bored of it ohh and still no wardeck I'm starting to think its not gonna happen.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.10 00:28:00 - [30] ... Umm, not sure if anyones suggested this, but how about not making a corp if you can't handle the wardecs? Has that occured to anyone? If your CEO is too inexperienced to know how to handle aggressors then he shouldn't be a CEO in the first place and the other members just made a bad/uninformed choice by following them into the lions den. I've decced a newbie corp before, and if I didn't know better I'd say their CEO was actually going out of his way to make it easy for me. He didn't deserve that position and they paid the price for it. Those members they lost later went on to join decent corps that actually taught them how to handle themselves. Yeah, grossly unbalanced wars get declared on a regular basis. It sucks for the one on the receiving end but that's the risk you take for your own independent corp. If anything they should make prospective CEOs more aware of the fact they will be dealing with other player aggression at some point and that they should know how to deal with it before they click "create corp". _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.



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