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Rivur'Tam
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Posted - 2010.04.12 10:48:00 -
[31]
REMOVE TITANS FROM THE GAME THEY ARE USELESS ****E
the first version of titan n dd were awesome but now the dd is useless it has less dps than a civy gatling gun and the finally nail in teh coffin was the removal of lowsec dd you ******s and your whinein runined another awesome ship
but rivur u hate 0.0 and blob tastic ***gotness why do u care at all (i hear u say)
because now my erebus is useless waste of isk on it its fit and the char that logs off it and not to mention the 6 months of training wasted.
wtf can i do with it now shoot a pos nope my moros dose it better , well u can keep stuff init nope my nyx does that just fine which btw thanks ccp for taking away the clone option on ms no reason for that. but wait i can use my erebus for taht sweet 70 bil isk jump clone ship thx ccp
no wondder i'm in high sec doing lv5 missions
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my vid watch now
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Qorthas
Caldari
Eternal Profiteers
SRS.
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Posted - 2010.04.12 11:18:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Qorthas on 12/04/2010 11:19:46
 Originally by: Rivur'Tam
blah blah blah, ****ed up grammer, ****ty spelling, blah blah.......
you cant seriously mean that you, with the way you write, is a titan pilot..... 
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AnKahn
Caldari
Unknown-Entity
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.12 16:49:00 -
[33]
Breaking up large 200 man gangs into actual squads or actually smaller "bite sized" gangs would be great. Having an Command FC that is perhaps piggy backed "docked in" an actual command ship calling out commands to multiple gang FCs who move thier gangs around seperately would be awesome in terms of tactics and frankly make large battles more interesting as they would be more cellular and have more depth (i.e. be less all or nothing, have more mini-battles) and also be more realistic.
To do this you would indeed need the concept of formations. But how to you encourage this? I really think that you have to introduce a new class of ship that can project AOE defensive and offensive effects, forcing ships to fly in formation. This new class of ship could not fly too close to each other and could only give boni to ships in its squad.
This class of character/ship was/is in the game CoH. Defenders I think they are called. I always thought EvE could use something like this that unlike Command Ships require proximity to work (not just being parked in a POS or safespot which is lame and extreemly boring I would think).
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Sigras
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Posted - 2010.04.12 20:16:00 -
[34]
The only way I can think of to cut the blob out of gameplay is impossible to impliment. :(
My idea is to require LOS on the target to fire on it, ideally, the attack would just hit anyone in front of the guns when they went off (more people = more friendly fire incidents), but just requiring line of sight would reduce the effectivness of blobs significantly
This change would do three good things:
1. Nerf unorganized blobbing
2. Buff missiles and drones (they wouldn't require LOS)
3. Make positioning important in a fleet
It would also do three bad things:
1. Crash nodes with massive amounts of calculations
2. Make frigates OP as they could evade attacks.
3. Cause a fair amount of Meta gaming
What do you think? Maybe they could impliment this, it'd be a Max of 8 calculations per ship per volley. . .
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Ethain
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Posted - 2010.04.12 20:39:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Sigras
What do you think? Maybe they could impliment this, it'd be a Max of 8 calculations per ship per volley. . .
Nice ideas, but this part is a tiny bit more complex than you suggest. The game doesn't "just know" that you're in the way (or not). Collision detection is one of the main limiting factors to player sizes in FPS games.
As all the ships may move, the server would have to do those calculations for every ship and object on the grid, per volley. Assuming the space a ship takes up can be represented by a cube, you need 8 calculations to see if the shot passes through that area of space. 8 guns x 8 corners x 100 possible target ships on grid is 6400 calculations. Assuming they are all firing you're suddenly looking at 6400 per ship * 100 firing, at 640,000 calculations, per volley. There are clever ways to reduce that (pre-calculate which ships are in range on a slower cycle, treat grouped guns as single entities), but I bet people wouldn't be happy if the hit box for their ship was a simple cube.
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar
Swag Co.
Sandbox Bullies
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Posted - 2010.04.12 20:41:00 -
[36]
A thought...perhaps CCP can install a rule that the local "gravametric integroty" or "Spacial Temporal Appature" or whatever you want to call it can only support fleets that have a "warpcore-mass" of X, since ships already are subject to mass vs. maximum velocity rules it might not be too hard to use that data point to limit the number of ships that can be in a fleet battle...just a thought.
"I have just as much authority as the empress, just not as many people that believe it." |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.04.12 20:42:00 -
[37]
They should make stargates and jump portals that attempt to send a pilot to SYSTEM A destabilize if there are GREATER THAN X people in local already above a certain MASS in the same way wormholes currently work, only it would be randomized. Maybe you'll end up in adjacent systems, maybe you'll end up in SYSTEM A, but one thing need be certain, the math would lend itself to maintaining an average amount of players in local that even a reinforced node would be able to sustain. In addition to that, there should be induced gravity wells when enough MASS in ships are on the same grid such that warping away from the grid requires an exponential amount of capacitor and warping to the grid may land you +50-100km off your intended exit point due to gravitational sheering.
i.e. if a system is flooded with pilots or sufficient MASS in ships, a good portion of them will get randomly spewed into adjacent systems, and the more MASS you have on a single grid, the weirder the warp to/from gets, insofar as if you are in a capital and in a grid with sufficient MASS, you will not simply be able to warp away at any point, you are now committed to the fight as the gravity well inhibits your warp drive.
I am not certain these ideas will be received well, and in some sense, I really do not care, but it would at least follow some of the RP as it is my understanding, and it is all fairly plausible since we already have some mechanics like this introduced into wormholes already.
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Corp Holder33
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:53:00 -
[38]
i have a decent idea to reduce blobbing......
Inside of fleets there are different wings etc etc inside one.
They could do something like where a destroyer squad can only attack destroyers and frigates of the enemy and vice versa...
Something like that... just an idea
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Sigras
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Posted - 2010.04.12 23:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ethain
Nice ideas, but this part is a tiny bit more complex than you suggest. The game doesn't "just know" that you're in the way (or not). Collision detection is one of the main limiting factors to player sizes in FPS games.
As all the ships may move, the server would have to do those calculations for every ship and object on the grid, per volley. Assuming the space a ship takes up can be represented by a cube, you need 8 calculations to see if the shot passes through that area of space. 8 guns x 8 corners x 100 possible target ships on grid is 6400 calculations. Assuming they are all firing you're suddenly looking at 6400 per ship * 100 firing, at 640,000 calculations, per volley. There are clever ways to reduce that (pre-calculate which ships are in range on a slower cycle, treat grouped guns as single entities), but I bet people wouldn't be happy if the hit box for their ship was a simple cube.
Tbh, I think it can be simplified a bit more than you suggest; the server knows where each entity is on the grid if only as a point in space. . . I would use signature radius to 1 simplify and 2 add a new dimention to the game. . . The server would simply draw a cone between each ship and the ship(s) its guns are aimed at; it would have with a base radius of the targeted ship's signature radius.
It would then be a simple matter to determine if any points lie within that cone. . . It would also not be too difficult to see if the obstructing object completely eclipses the object.
The only thing that would be difficult to calculate would be if two or more ships were occluding one ship but none of them were completely eclipsing it.
This would drastically change the way fleet fights are conducted as the primary target could hide behind other ships. . . It would also make cap fights more dynamic as positioning would now make a huge difference as to effectiveness. . . . I bet in large fleets it would even reduce lag a bit because of the fewer shots being fired. . .
Ideas? Comments?
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Mattk50
Executive Intervention
Primary.
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Posted - 2010.04.13 05:03:00 -
[40]
the sov structures HP needs to be made smaller so its possible for a small gang to take them out. this way gangs will be taking sov accross multiple systems at once, if FCs are smart. blitzkreig ftw.
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Napro
Caldari
Buccaneers of New Eden
death from above..
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Posted - 2010.04.13 11:21:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 11/04/2010 21:33:46
There was something mentioned last year at fanfest that did hold promise:
Formations.
Noone knows how it could work but it should offer interesting possibilities.
Uh, how?
How could this possibly work? What if half your fleet gets lagged out on grid load.. your formation crumbles?
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Sigras
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Posted - 2010.04.13 18:02:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Mattk50
the sov structures HP needs to be made smaller so its possible for a small gang to take them out. this way gangs will be taking sov accross multiple systems at once, if FCs are smart. blitzkreig ftw.
This would not fix blobs, all that would happen is the blob-fest would be to save the mods. People would blob to save the mods and others would blob to destroy them
Blitzkreig ftl
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.04.13 19:00:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Sigras
My idea is to require LOS on the target to fire on it, ideally, the attack would just hit anyone in front of the guns when they went off (more people = more friendly fire incidents), but just requiring line of sight would reduce the effectivness of blobs significantly
This + Terrain + Serious consequences from collisions would make EvE combat much better. The UI would have to be improved and the learning curve would be even more horrifying but I think it would be worth it. To bad its
Quote:
impossible to impliment. :(
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Lothix
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Posted - 2010.04.13 19:10:00 -
[44]
Impose a mass limit on system (or a grid).
- For controlled systems reserve half of the total mass for defenders.
- For NPC/contested systems continuously split up remaining mass over alliances/corps currently in system.
EVE already has massive artificial limitations that make no physical sense, why stop now? |
Sonreir
Gallente
Band of Builders Inc.
Enforcers of Serenity
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Posted - 2010.04.13 19:12:00 -
[45]
There needs to be some game mechanic that forces and attacker to attack multiple systems at once to achieve their goal.
Something like having to kill all the TCUs in a constellation within a 30 minute timer period or something like that.
I know my example would heavily favor the defenders, but I'm only using this to illustrate the underlying idea.
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Moonmonkey
Amarr
Orange Clover
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Posted - 2010.04.13 20:11:00 -
[46]
Eve travel mechanics is as much a part of the problem as anything else, you don't travel between systems. You instantly switch systems, if ships could fly between system as well as using gates. A blob fleet could load up a grid with a flight time of 10 minutes rather that the instant gate jump. Let all ships fly from star to star, let it take 10 minutes of travel with a 10 minute cooldown. Let there be a fixed grid for all gates and stars which is loaded in the travel time.
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Mobius Fierce
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Posted - 2010.04.14 21:47:00 -
[47]
Eve was never designed to have even fights. I have seen smaller fleets beat bigger ones, but generally speaking you want to have more numbers than the other guys.
They could change pvp from free form to some kind of magical anime like system where a fixed number of participants (perhaps 1 fleet vs 1 fleet) are "transported" to an arena to duke it out. But even this has problems (other than no one would want this system to begin with). The most harmful of which is with fixed fleet sizes newbies are marginalized. Right now, every ship counts and that's a good thing.
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.04.14 23:01:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Mobius Fierce
Eve was never designed to have even fights. I have seen smaller fleets beat bigger ones, but generally speaking you want to have more numbers than the other guys.
agreed
Originally by: Mobius Fierce
They could change pvp from free form to some kind of magical anime like system where a fixed number of participants (perhaps 1 fleet vs 1 fleet) are "transported" to an arena to duke it out. But even this has problems (other than no one would want this system to begin with). The most harmful of which is with fixed fleet sizes newbies are marginalized. Right now, every ship counts and that's a good thing.
actually, area type engagements would be kinda cool in empire for ppl to 1v1 or whatever. it's been suggested and i believe even gone through a healthy portion of the development stage by ccp but i'm not sure if anything ever has/will come of it
we all know numbers count. anything that would skew this fundamental would be very radical, non-eve-ish and definitely not adopted by ccp.
however, there are/were deterrents to placing all your eggs in the same basket and/or mechanics that could be adjusted to either require you (or just make good tactical sense) to place you troops in a number of different locations at the same time, working towards the same concerted goal while performing their own individual functions.
but yeah, magical anime or whatever you said
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
icecooljon
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.04.15 00:18:00 -
[49]
I've been reading through the thread so far and there are some interesting ideas (and some idea's which confuse me and I couldn't see them working). I would just like to mention that any changes made on fleet structures effects everyone for example; miners, missioners, high sec PVP, and of course 0.0/low sec massive gang PVP.
When discussing possible ways to combat lag people have to also think of the knock on effect which would maybe fix 0.0 lagfests but potentially ruin small gang high sec PVP. And yes, this is a valid part of the game, whether you 0.0 allaince battle guys want to admit it or not.
The idea suggested where, for example a squad of frigs can only attack other frigs would be ok I suppose in larger fights and would make alliances use ships of all classes, but would ruin small gang PVP since how is a small gang meant to accommodate for all encounters? Also for large fleet battles it would have to be split into capital/non-capital since if there was only one titan left remaining on the field, this particular method would allow them to float, totally secure around the wrecks of their dead teammates.
Anyway keep us the suggestions, if some of these suggestions were to be refined you guys could actually come up with some damn fine idea's!
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Flitterby
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Posted - 2010.04.15 13:57:00 -
[50]
Apologies in advance for wall of text. Sigh.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
- Create independent sections/modules on the iHubs (think station services) so that a smaller fleet can forcefully affect system indices temporarily . Will be reinstated upon rebuilding so no time loss from index loss as "normal".
This would be great! An earlier poster said that defending these modules would simply lead to more blobbing, but no, the key here is that the effects of attacking these modules is TEMPORARY. For example, imagine that a 10-man HAC gang could "disable" a mining upgrade module in as little as 5-10 minutes. The system temporarily has its industrial index reduced by 1, and the HAC gang flies off. 24-48 hours later the module re-enables itself for free and everything returns to normal.
These subordinate modules could be indestructible while the iHub survives, and attacking them can only "disable" them, not destroy them. Modules would be randomly placed in the system when indexes are upgraded... either around celestials or maybe they'd have to be probed out.
---
Such a mechanic would give small gangs of attackers something to do, but what about small gangs of defenders? As it is now, defenders don't have anything to do except form blobs, because attackers normally stage out of low-sec, high-sec, or NPC 0.0.
1. Create a way for a small gang of defenders to hinder the attackers' operations in low-sec/high-sec/NPC 0.0. Perhaps some sort of espionage activity that results in temporary criminals flags for the targets with the appropriate NPC faction. There have got to be more possibilities as well.
2. Create a way for a small gang of defenders to temporarily defend a system against large numbers of attackers. Example: a deployable module with very few hitpoints that significantly boosts the damage and resists of every friendly ship in the system, with the boost dropping as the number of friendly ships increases. So, for example, if there is one friendly ship in the system it might get +500% damage and +95% resists. If there are 10 friendly ships in-system they might get +200% damage, +50% resists. If there are 20 friendlies, +50% damage, +10% resists. Etc. This module could be probed out by a covops and might have as few as 10k hitpoints.
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The main reason that there are huge blobs is because there are very few things to DO in a war, and they all require blobs. POS/hub/station attacking/defending all require blobs!
CCP: please give us tasks to do that can have a significant effect on our opponents and that do not require blobs! I do agree that permanent changes (POS/hub/station destruction) make sense to be blobby, but temporary status changes should be able to be performed by small gangs.
People want to have options! But right now there is little for a small gang to DO.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2010.04.15 14:06:00 -
[51]
Blobs are fine, there's nothing wrong with having strength in numbers. However, the lag that follows is not okay.
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Eternum Praetorian
Method In Khaos
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Posted - 2010.04.15 14:31:00 -
[52]
Ok . . .
1.) CCP likes blobs, they have said so. Thus, no issue there because the gods of EVE like titans duking it out. End of discussion there.
2.) Additionally, lag was fine before the stupid freaking fleetfinder. Everyone knows that is the problem, prior to it, lag was at an all time low. Leave it to CCP to **** it up right after they finally fixed the lag issue. The fact that CCP has not rolled it back, or provided some kind of alternate fleet finder setting for blobs by now, borderlines on irresponsibility on their part. It is a simple fix that they have elected not to implement.
Nuff said. 
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EhonVonnre
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Posted - 2010.04.15 16:48:00 -
[53]
What about enforcing a queue/delay to travel through gates? I'm not saying make it especially long (a few seconds between each ship).
This would severely increase travel time for a large roaming blob, but shouldn't cause too much problem with a smaller gang. This could discourage them a little bit.
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D'aluu
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Posted - 2010.06.06 22:58:00 -
[54]
I kind of like the white noise idea over at Massively. Its two years old but looks sound.
http://www.massively.com/2008/05/26/eve-evolved-to-blob-or-not-to-blob/
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Lupe Fiasco
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Posted - 2010.06.07 16:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Qorthas
Edited by: Qorthas on 12/04/2010 11:19:46
Originally by: Rivur'Tam
blah blah blah, ****ed up grammer, ****ty spelling, blah blah.......
you cant seriously mean that you, with the way you write, is a titan pilot.....
Quoting for great glory.
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Kick, Push |
Oneiros IV
Stella Polaris.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 19:01:00 -
[56]
I always assumed EVE is more a warfare sim than knight's tournament in space. Can't remember any country bringing numbers in hope for equal chance to win.
(probably there was, but they didn't write history for sure)
But I do think that EVE combat should be made more sophisitcated, that won't sort blob issue but will make participating more demanding. Currently it's complexity in a BS fleet is on par with Hearts/Minesweeper. (so is eve PvE but that's another story)
I'd like to see it taking some mouseskills if that's an apropriate word.
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Dzajic
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2010.06.07 19:11:00 -
[57]
Have LOS, friendly fire and real transversal calculation, and no lag and you would completely change EVE combat at all scales. With current lag levels adding first 3 things would be pointless as you couldn't control them. Further, first three would actually greatly increase lag if added.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.07 19:20:00 -
[58]
1. Remove sov ties from structures (yeah i know i said that earleir in this topic, 2 months ago or so). Not a clue how to do it, but the idea would be that you have sov if you actually use a system instead of when you anchor a module (you can do a combination of the two)
2. LOS as explained before
3. Make eve way, way larger. And then i am not really talking about systems, but more about travel time it takes. It should just be a really bad idea for an alliance to go fight more than one region away, since it leaves your own space defenseless. However right now you are back in 1 second (jump clone), 1 second (medical clone), 15 minutes (jbs, titan bridges, jump drives), 2 hour (normal gate travel) from the other side of the map.
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Skh'th'ss
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Posted - 2010.06.08 03:28:00 -
[59]
A simple alternative to sov being tied to structures could just be simple population counters.
If a corp/alliance has the most people in a system throughout some set period of time they gain sov, or strengthen their claim. If for some time period they do not their claim grows weaker.
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The'Best Hellfury
Incura
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Posted - 2010.06.08 06:53:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Hung Wang
Force nullsec nodes to shut down when more than 100 pilots enter the same system.
And then what happens when 1 side jumps 99 pilots into the system and starts attacking sov structures?
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