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steave435
Caldari Final Agony B A N E
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Posted - 2010.04.13 09:27:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Morel Nova
Originally by: steave435 Max skill ecm burst: 9k optimal, 6k falloff. Optimal+2x falloff=21k Warp disruptor II: 24k optimal
think about it. explain to me how anything disrupting me at that range isnt dead or left behind as I burn away in my AC falloff boosted ship
[Sentinel, New Setup 1] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Capacitor Power Relay II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption
[empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Don't really need the cap mods, it's just there to prove it can be done with cap not being an issue. Max skills with barrage loaded in your 425's and 3 T2 tracking enchancers: 0.7 optimal, 8.8 falloff. Total range: 18.3k
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.04.13 09:47:00 -
[62]
Originally by: steave435
[Sentinel, New Setup 1]
How do you expect to survive in that thing? ;)
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2010.04.13 10:00:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Morel Nova not necessarily true for the crusier line (I admit only 70% of the faction frigs are valid). When there is a serpentis epic arc we are going to have massive rage over 1000 dps faction 90% web vigilants killing everything (these will chew up cynabals for breakfast).
Proms rage will be epic.
Also we already got a ship that demonstrates how good point blank + expensive + cruiser works(even if he Vigilant is less terrible at it).
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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steave435
Caldari Final Agony B A N E
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Posted - 2010.04.13 10:19:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: steave435
[Sentinel, New Setup 1]
How do you expect to survive in that thing? ;)
By not getting hit. You even have some lows you can use for tank since that one was built making sure that it could keep up with the fastest cynabals possible (aka all ODs in lows) indefinitely, so it needed cap recharge and extra speed mods to prove that, but you should usually not need more then 1 OD in order to keep up, especially if you fit neuts in the highs. 2 small neuts added on top of already running an ECM burst and a MWD will cap the cynabal out in 30 seconds.
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Morel Nova
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.04.13 12:45:00 -
[65]
Originally by: steave435
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: steave435
[Sentinel, New Setup 1]
How do you expect to survive in that thing? ;)
By not getting hit. You even have some lows you can use for tank since that one was built making sure that it could keep up with the fastest cynabals possible (aka all ODs in lows) indefinitely, so it needed cap recharge and extra speed mods to prove that, but you should usually not need more then 1 OD in order to keep up, especially if you fit neuts in the highs. 2 small neuts added on top of already running an ECM burst and a MWD will cap the cynabal out in 30 seconds.
neut. drones. I'v been tackled by these before and without ECM support or a ton of crap landing fairly fast you either shake tackle because he got too cautions, got too close to get neuted or again back in AC range/had to disengage from drones. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
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steave435
Caldari Final Agony B A N E
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Posted - 2010.04.13 15:49:00 -
[66]
Quote: again back in AC range
Even dipping a bit into falloff isn't a problem since you're still so far out they hardly have any effect, and most won't even have as many TEs as my example above do. With 2 TE, which seem more likely (an all gank fit would probably fill the rest of the lows with gyros, max speed fits would use spares for speed instead of more TE), the sentinel can come in to 15.7km and still have a 0% risk of being hit by the ACs.
The burst has only 43% chance to jam while in optimal, and at, for example, 15km range, the 50% chance of it simply missing and not even being compared to the sensor strength of the sentinel (due to falloff) means the actual chance is about 21.5%.
Quote: neut
The cynabal will be capped out from the sentinels neuting in pretty much no time, and if necessary, the sentinel has bonused nos to keep itself up if it does enter the 12km neut range (which it shouldn't since it has twice as long point range).
Quote: drones
As mentioned, you have 2 lows for tank. Even with only 1 overdrive, it can still keep up with almost any cynabal configuration. Even one with 3 aux thrusters in the rig slots and 1 OD or 2 nanos would only match the sentinel with 1 OD. 2 overdrives+1 speed mod of any kind will have you pulling away slowly, but even those willing to give up dps and range for even more speed usually mix in nanos/polycarbs instead to get the agility aswell, so again, 1 OD sentinel will keep up with almost any cynabal, and if you're worried, you can get one of the cheap c-type MWDs to save cap, allowing 1 semi-conductor from the following fit to be swapped for a speed rig, adding an another 10% to the speed. [Sentinel, New Setup 1] Overdrive Injector System II Damage Control II Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Warrior II x4 Even assuming that they do not get any kind of damage reduction from transversal, it can tank a flight of warriors for several minutes, and that's without heat. That's more then enough time for its own drones to take out any hostile ones. Cap lasts 2 minutes, while the cynabal only last 45 seconds with the small neut on it while running its own mwd and ecm burst (turning the burst off saves 12-13 seconds depending on if you have a T2 or Y-T8 mwd). When the cynabal caps out, the sentinel will loose its cap battery, but since it no longer need to MWD, it will be fine anyway, especially since the cynabal is now slow enough that even a BS can keep up, so it won't live long.
Just because the sentinel pilots you've encountered were not skilled enough to keep you there does not mean it does not work.
This is ofc completely forgetting the fact that any of the stabber variations can keep up with you and has good enough tank and sensor strength to hold you there, especially if they stay in burst falloff (it may not kill you solo, but not even the faction or T2 version should kill a pirate ship flown with the same style 1v1). Similarily, a vengeance with a scram and eccm will have a hard time catching you, even when MWD fit, but once the scram is on, it will keep up, has good sensor strength and a great tank and can easily fit some nos in highs to provide the scram with the 3 cap it needs/cycle (even if it get neuted, 1 small nos cycle is enough to make the scram go one more cycle).
The problem is people not being smart enough to realize how to counter it, not the absence of counter.
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LooknSee
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Posted - 2010.04.13 22:56:00 -
[67]
rofl, this thread it funny.
So let me see if I understand this...
A module that has never been changed since being released is now somehow 'fotm'? Pretty sure that makes no sense at all. FOTMs are, by definition, created when gameplay mechanics are changed. ECM burst has not changed.
The only thing that changed here is the cynabal/dramiel. They're the 'fotm' and if anything needs a nerf, it's them. ECM Burst has nothing to do with their "OPness". It's the fact that these ships' natural speed allows them to outrun anything large enough to be resistant to ecm burst. Cut their speed and this 'problem' disappears.
Ofc, the OP doesn't desire this sort of change, because he's having all sorts of fun with his newly op faction ships.
Another day, another fail lobbyist post on eve-o.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar Star Bombers
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Posted - 2010.04.13 23:26:00 -
[68]
Originally by: lookatzebirdie
Not that I don't respect genos and love their vids but i just lost a little respect for them when they used the "we are 1337 pvpers and your a noob so we must be right" argument instead of actually making a point. ...
This. Ego-peening on forums just puts others off.
On Topix, the ECM Burst has never been a problem before because the slot layouts have seldom had a utility mid that one could throw away on a mod that might help, but seldom did. So why nerf ECM bursts because one ship has a utility mid? If you really, desperately, absolutely, will-rage-quit-if-ccp-doesn't-do-this feel the need to nerf something, drop one of the Cyna's midslots.
But really, is this such a problem? If the Dram and Cyna are so totally OP, then sooner or later (well, like now), anyone who can afford will be flying them. CCP is slow and dumb pretty often, but they'll notice that and then nerf it, probably.
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Taudia
Gallente Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.04.13 23:30:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Driving off nanoships is generally speaking easy...
I fly blasterboats solo. I prefer BC size.
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Killing them is not as trivial, but you've actually got good odds of doing this in a Hurricane if you play your cards right. It's certainly not a big deal to catch most Vagabonds out there, but the Vagabond has such shoddy agility in comparison to the Cynabal. In theory the Cynabal should be much much more difficult to catch, but as never actually had a Cynabal try to fight me, can't really speak from personal experience.
Key part being "in a hurricane". What happens when you're in a ship that does not have good speed or range? Just saying you're using a bit of a simplified scenario here.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.04.14 01:11:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 14/04/2010 01:11:58
Originally by: Taudia
Key part being "in a hurricane". What happens when you're in a ship that does not have good speed or range? Just saying you're using a bit of a simplified scenario here.
Then you are pretty much in a ship that is a perfect target for the Cynabal.
If you could catch up to it in every ship, there would be no point in having a ship that is built around the concept of keeping range, because it would be useless. You could just as well ask "What do I do against an AML Caracal in an AF?", the answer is "You try not to get caught".
There are still ways to make yourself a less desirable prey or make it impossible for him to kill your ship though, but unless the other guy makes a mistake you wont catch up to him, that should be common sense.
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Darthewok
Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2010.04.14 01:59:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Taudia Edited by: Taudia on 13/04/2010 09:00:15
Cynabals are pretty OP as I see it. Personally, I think the nano-ing capabilities of ships like the Ishtar, the Curse, the Gila or the vagabond is plenty and difficult enough to deal with if the pilot is capable. I am not an expert on nano but it seems to me that the cynabal is better in some ways than the ships I just mentioned, if not nearly strictly better than vagabonds. Though I suspect that keeping this particular ship from being very much like a Vagabond or a Hurricane will be difficult, but it is frustrating to deal with ships I basically have to be lucky to counter.
Driving off nanoships is generally speaking easy (unless it's a Curse or something, where only epic fail from the pilot will save you or landing on it sub 10km which is again epic fail from the pilot).
Killing them is not as trivial, but you've actually got good odds of doing this in a Hurricane if you play your cards right. It's certainly not a big deal to catch most Vagabonds out there, but the Vagabond has such shoddy agility in comparison to the Cynabal. In theory the Cynabal should be much much more difficult to catch, but as never actually had a Cynabal try to fight me, can't really speak from personal experience.
Cynabals are a totally different kettle of tea from Vagas. Vagas nano/GTFO ability is balanced by 1) its squishiness/weakness if it does get careless. So maybe out of 10 times you engage one you kill it 2/3 times. 2) no space in the mids for dual prop/ECM burst. 3) its weak DPS making it a challenge to attack larger ships, meaning need for target selection. and that you can chase it off.
Cynabals completely removed ALL THREE OF THESE BALANCING FACTORS. A Vaga that you cannot chase off due to higher gank/tank, that you cannot even catch if it is careless (because of dual prop/ECM burst)? OVERPOWERED. So of course everyone flies them as it is Vaga on steroids without the downside. I wander every region in 0.0 regularly and have seen the variety of ships on scanner more and more replaced by Cynabals and Dramiels. Naturally FOTM flyers and KM farmers will defend their ship, but it is causing the game to become very monotonous in terms of ship variety.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.04.14 02:55:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 14/04/2010 03:01:32
Originally by: Darthewok
Cynabals completely removed ALL THREE OF THESE BALANCING FACTORS.
Nonsense, they can choose to remove exactly ONE of these.
If it has dual prop, it doesnt have ECM burst or superior tank. If it has superior tank, it doesnt have dual prop or ECM burst. If it has ECM burst, it doesnt have superior tank or dual prop.
Originally by: Darthewok
I wander every region in 0.0 regularly and have seen the variety of ships on scanner more and more replaced by Cynabals and Dramiels.
My personal observation is that these ships are most popular in the insanely blobby areas, which might be due to the fact that they are the only ones actually making it past the chokepoints. (In fact, the very subject of this thread, people fitting ECM bursts to get rid of tackle frigates on one of the fastest, best frigate killing ships in the game, should be food for thought.)
Thats not only a 0.0 phenomenon, you can also see this in those parts of lowsec where engaging something in a belt with your rifter means you get 20 ships dropped on you in a matter of seconds.
FW with interceptors and fast-locking frigates on pretty much every gate and system backed up by 10-20 man gangs does its part as well in making flying everything but the fastest ships a suicide run.
Now I like flying BCs as well, in fact my favourite ship class, but if you lose five of them to ganks before you even get a chance to fight (you get blobbed in that fight as well, but at least might kill something)... you get the idea.
Try to look at it from the other guys perspective, he might want to fly something else as well, and if you wouldnt blob him to hell and back the second he enters system, he might fly a different ship that annoys you less.
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Darthewok
Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2010.04.14 03:18:00 -
[73]
in addition, i see lots of multiple dramiel/cynabal teams around. they are far far more dangerous than the inty/vaga teams that previously were around as they have much more DPS to kill more stuff quicker and much more GTFO ability. basically the OPness of the individual ships are compounded in groups and in combination.
people can pretend Cynabal/Dramiel are not OP all they want, but in the end the ridiculous amount they are being used says all anyone needs to know. they are OP with respect to other ships and need a nerf to preserve the balance of power between ships.
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Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2010.04.14 03:19:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Patri Andari on 14/04/2010 03:25:14
Originally by: LooknSee rofl, this thread it funny.
So let me see if I understand this...
A module that has never been changed since being released is now somehow 'fotm'? Pretty sure that makes no sense at all. FOTMs are, by definition, created when gameplay mechanics are changed. ECM burst has not changed.
Sooo,...what game play mechanics were changed to make Ham Drake viable to become FOTM?
Just sayin..
Patri
I'll Roshambo you for that Titan |
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.04.14 03:21:00 -
[75]
They are overpowered for the price
If I were to judge true value of Cynabal, I'd put it around 400 mil Dramiel value I'd put around 170 mil
If they cost that much to lose, I'd be content with them flying around, cause I know they will die eventually, it's just a matter of time. Time and money.
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Darthewok
Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2010.04.14 03:30:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Besides, it seems like you defeated one of these horribly overpowered dualprop FOTM dps monsters in your Jaguar... doesnt seem that overpowered to me. Fact of the matter is, it dies to a cleverly flown ship just like anything else, the annoying part is that they excel at choosing engagements, but get over it already, there will always be a ship that can do that.
shhh... i suck at PVP!
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.04.14 05:20:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Darthewok
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Besides, it seems like you defeated one of these horribly overpowered dualprop FOTM dps monsters in your Jaguar... doesnt seem that overpowered to me. Fact of the matter is, it dies to a cleverly flown ship just like anything else, the annoying part is that they excel at choosing engagements, but get over it already, there will always be a ship that can do that.
shhh... i suck at PVP!
Newsflash, the speedfit Dram just sucks solo :P ----------------------------------------------- www.eve-arena.com
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Darthewok
Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2010.04.14 05:22:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Darthewok on 14/04/2010 05:25:01
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Darthewok
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Besides, it seems like you defeated one of these horribly overpowered dualprop FOTM dps monsters in your Jaguar... doesnt seem that overpowered to me. Fact of the matter is, it dies to a cleverly flown ship just like anything else, the annoying part is that they excel at choosing engagements, but get over it already, there will always be a ship that can do that.
shhh... i suck at PVP!
Newsflash, the speedfit Dram just sucks solo :P
actually all my Dramiel kills are of new Dramiel pilots or weird fits. does not prove Dramiel is not OP. whereas experienced Dramiel pilots are pretty unbeatable 1v1.
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Smabs
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Posted - 2010.04.14 08:52:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Smabs on 14/04/2010 08:53:06 to be honest a lot of scanning in the busier ares is starting to show dramiel, dramiel, cynabal, dramiel, cynabal, cynabal etc. I just bought one of the damn things just because I don't feel like I can really compete in other ships - trying to fight an experienced pilot in a dramiel is mostly an exercise in frustration.
The ecm burst thing really does kinda suck, especially if it becomes widespread. Inties have a hard enough time not dying to cynabals already.
Edit: at least the price of cynabals has gone over 200 mil, although I don't know if that's just the result of increased demand.
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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.04.14 10:03:00 -
[80]
ECM burst and sig tanking is the real issue. Combined its possible to take on crazy things like 1v5 and survive.
Anyone buying a Dramiel to counter Dramiels is an idiot. ----
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Smabs
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Posted - 2010.04.14 10:13:00 -
[81]
So what frigate do you suggest flying over a dramiel?
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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.04.14 10:21:00 -
[82]
Buffer Malediction or Daredevil for starters. ----
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Smabs
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Posted - 2010.04.14 10:31:00 -
[83]
Daredevil, sure, not so sure about a buffer malediction. Although a daredevil is much more expensive and much less survivable, generally. But anyway I'm not sure how you'd fix the ecm burst thing without either removing a midslot on the cyna or changing the mechanic.
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Darthewok
Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2010.04.14 11:16:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Smabs
to be honest a lot of scanning in the busier areas is starting to show dramiel, dramiel, cynabal, dramiel, cynabal, cynabal etc.
yeah people can make whatever justification they want but in the end this ^^ shows what is happening. i don't like freaking encountering only the same 2 ships over and over again. its boring. nerf em back in line, let the skies be filled again with a variety of ships and more variation in PVP dynamics.
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.14 11:44:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Patri Andari Edited by: Patri Andari on 14/04/2010 03:25:14
Originally by: LooknSee rofl, this thread it funny.
So let me see if I understand this...
A module that has never been changed since being released is now somehow 'fotm'? Pretty sure that makes no sense at all. FOTMs are, by definition, created when gameplay mechanics are changed. ECM burst has not changed.
Sooo,...what game play mechanics were changed to make Ham Drake viable to become FOTM?
Nano nerf(s), that made "normal" ships viable again. Partly because they don't have to nano and partly because missiles now can actually hit stuff.
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service |
Morel Nova
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.04.14 12:47:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Darthewok in addition, i see lots of multiple dramiel/cynabal teams around. they are far far more dangerous than the inty/vaga teams that previously were around as they have much more DPS to kill more stuff quicker and much more GTFO ability. basically the OPness of the individual ships are compounded in groups and in combination.
not sure what you mean. they have more GTFO:ness, but for gangs they will be less efficient with scimitar support due to worse resists. in the general fits cynabals have less dps than vagabonds though (but not much) Reward small gang/solo pvp!
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Haramir Haleths
Caldari Nutella Bande
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Posted - 2010.04.14 13:07:00 -
[87]
Stay out of Burst Range. Problem solved. Things can be so easy.
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Ospie
Core Impulse
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Posted - 2010.04.14 13:27:00 -
[88]
I think you'd have to be pretty ignorant to deny that dramiels & cynabals are a bit imbalanced at the moment, they both want a bit of a check.
As has been said it's bad enough for ships that can catch up with a cynabal w/o having to deal with an ecm burst, in my experience any cynabal pilot that sees something that might be able to counter it will gtfo anyway so it's only really the uncautious/dumb pilots who're generally put in the situation of being caught. It doesn't help that the ships that can counter it aren't exactly flown much either since they're generally a bit unconventional/impractical anyway.
As far as FW goes.. I'm not sure about gallente:caldari but in the amarr:minmatar scene it's not terribly populated any more, especially by those hordes of sensor boosted intys with 20 man gangs on call, if anything the cynabal and dramiel changes have detered many pilots from flying intys.
Now, I'm not saying that I want to see them nerfed cause they beat me or w/e, I rarely bother fighting them myself and have a reasonable record against them, also my corp has 10 pilots or so who fly their cynabals alot. Competent pilots in their own right but the cynabal just makes it that much easier for them. I'd still rather their combat stats go down a bit (if at all) and see cynabals/drams nerfed than keep those ships in their current state.
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Jarne
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vivisection.
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Posted - 2010.04.14 15:09:00 -
[89]
If it hasn't been mentioned yet, use a LG Jackal set. Cheap as hell and gives an extra 7 points sensor strength flat.
Also, whining about not being able to catch a FOTM ***** while being a FOTM ***** seems silly to me.
Also, how is ECM burst any better than neutralizers, Warrior IIs or ECM drones? - Success=Achievements/Expectations
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Smabs
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Posted - 2010.04.14 15:31:00 -
[90]
Although cynabals get ecm drones, warrior II's, a medium neut and an ecm burst.
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