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I'm getting tired of this: nerf ECM bursts fotm

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Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 08:56:00 - [1] This new trend of fitting ECM bursts to angel ships is seriously getting out of hand. These modules makes you practically immune to small ships, and have a very high chance of shaking cruiser sized vessels. Yesterday I lost tackle on 2 (two!!) cynabals in my dramiel I would have had no issue killing otherwise. it just doesnt have a viable counter due to their range matching scrambler/orbit range. I suggest reducing strength on ECM bursts with maybe 25% at least and shortening range so a smart pilot has a chance to dodge (like you can against small neuts). I admit I have been flying these myself and gotten out of insane situations with it (scrambled by 3 ceptors burst goodbye) but these ships are already hard to catch (not like the WCS dramiels though wtf) but its getting out of hand now with so many showing up. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.04.12 09:02:00 - [2] What is so special about fitting them to Angel ships?
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.12 09:02:00 - [3] are you seriously whining about a module that uses a midslot and can be used once every 30 seconds which might/will make it possible to escape from your FOTM Dramiel? Here's a tip, use a web on the target and before they can warp away (as they have to get up to warp speed again) retarget them and tackle again. Otherwise bring friends or fit ECCM. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 09:09:00 - [4] Originally by: Marlona Sky What is so special about fitting them to Angel ships? they already have speed to escape everything other than ceptors/dramiels and plenty of midslots. vagabond for example cant do this because of midslot count. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.12 09:14:00 - [5] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 12/04/2010 09:15:44 Originally by: Morel Nova it just doesnt have a viable counter counter? ECM burst IS a counter against your tackle already, nothing wrong with that. A working counter is a good counter, maybe CCP should modify the warp scrambler to chance based module, how you feel about that?
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 09:31:00 - [6] Originally by: Marko Riva are you seriously whining about a module that uses a midslot and can be used once every 30 seconds which might/will make it possible to escape from your FOTM Dramiel? Here's a tip, use a web on the target and before they can warp away (as they have to get up to warp speed again) retarget them and tackle again. Otherwise bring friends or fit ECCM. ECCM on my ceptor? seriously? still this only pulls jam chance down to like 70-80% Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.12 09:34:00 - [7] The module itself is just fine on non-angel ships. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.12 09:40:00 - [8] Originally by: Morel Nova Originally by: Marko Riva are you seriously whining about a module that uses a midslot and can be used once every 30 seconds which might/will make it possible to escape from your FOTM Dramiel? Here's a tip, use a web on the target and before they can warp away (as they have to get up to warp speed again) retarget them and tackle again. Otherwise bring friends or fit ECCM. ECCM on my ceptor? seriously? still this only pulls jam chance down to like 70-80% You whine about Cyna's using a burst "because they have the midslot", you have enormous speed and can easily devote a low slot to ECCM using that same "they have the free slots for it". Instead you whine about someone getting away from your FOTM ship, or rather have a CHANCE to get away once every 30 seconds. If you don't want it to happen bring a rapier friend, fit that eccm or bring more than one tackler. Your posting is awful. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 09:43:00 - [9] Originally by: Marko Riva Originally by: Morel Nova Originally by: Marko Riva are you seriously whining about a module that uses a midslot and can be used once every 30 seconds which might/will make it possible to escape from your FOTM Dramiel? Here's a tip, use a web on the target and before they can warp away (as they have to get up to warp speed again) retarget them and tackle again. Otherwise bring friends or fit ECCM. ECCM on my ceptor? seriously? still this only pulls jam chance down to like 70-80% You whine about Cyna's using a burst "because they have the midslot", you have enormous speed and can easily devote a low slot to ECCM using that same "they have the free slots for it". Instead you whine about someone getting away from your FOTM ship, or rather have a CHANCE to get away once every 30 seconds. If you don't want it to happen bring a rapier friend, fit that eccm or bring more than one tackler. Your posting is awful. Keep it civilized, I'm just trying to make an important point here. A lowslot ECCM is even weaker, and even less viable on a solo fit like my dramiel. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.12 09:46:00 - [10] It's an escape module and serves the same purpose as ecm drone spam does. Has an insane cap cost, long cycle time and only break locks. Dangerous module to use anywhere except in null-sec due to possibility of accidental aggro. It is a very annoying module to be hit with for sure, I almost always think the enemy entered warp when lock breaks .. takes a few seconds to realise what happened. A bit surprised that it hasn't seen much use until now since it is one of the few modules that has never changed and remained viable throughout. A change that might be warranted is to give it a much more visible effect as it is very difficult to see currently (ie. I have never seen it).
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.12 09:47:00 - [11] Then simply agree that you chose to solo, chose to not fit against ECM and that ships actually might get away from you. I know this is a difficult concept and people should just stop moving, disable their modules and accept death when you tackle them, especially when they fly a FOTM ship (just like you do). and I stand by my point, this thread is awful. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Kimura Masahiko Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 10:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Marko Riva Edited by: Marko Riva on 12/04/2010 09:53:30 Also: ONE OF YOUR CYNABAL LOSSES WHERE YOU FIT ECM BURST. Get out! The thing is when an overpowered new FOTM like this comes along you can either whine on the forums and never fight the ship + fit in question again, or you can get in on the fun before the inevitable nerf. Check out my sig its pretty cool
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.12 10:14:00 - [13] Edited by: Marko Riva on 12/04/2010 10:14:07 Originally by: Kimura Masahiko Originally by: Marko Riva Edited by: Marko Riva on 12/04/2010 09:53:30 Also: ONE OF YOUR CYNABAL LOSSES WHERE YOU FIT ECM BURST. Get out! The thing is when an overpowered new FOTM like this comes along you can either whine on the forums and never fight the ship + fit in question again, or you can get in on the fun before the inevitable nerf. Exactly, either make a well constructed (non whining) post about it OR use it till it gets changed, but not both and especially not if you tend to fly overpowered dualprop Dramiels (which are WAY more in need of a nerf than ECM burst) yourself. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Kimura Masahiko Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 10:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Marko Riva Edited by: Marko Riva on 12/04/2010 10:14:07 Originally by: Kimura Masahiko Originally by: Marko Riva Edited by: Marko Riva on 12/04/2010 09:53:30 Also: ONE OF YOUR CYNABAL LOSSES WHERE YOU FIT ECM BURST. Get out! The thing is when an overpowered new FOTM like this comes along you can either whine on the forums and never fight the ship + fit in question again, or you can get in on the fun before the inevitable nerf. Exactly, either make a well constructed (non whining) post about it OR use it till it gets changed, but not both and especially not if you tend to fly overpowered dualprop Dramiels (which are WAY more in need of a nerf than ECM burst) yourself. Ha! Spoken like someone who doesn't have a clue. If you think the dual prop dramiel is bad, wait until you're face to face with one of the Warp Core Stab fits that are becoming popular. The ecm burst cynabal is arguably for more powerful though, not only is it a nightmare to catch with its frigate like agility and speed, it then has an absurb "GTFO Button" in the form of its ecm burst. Far better than any dual prop dramiel could even dream of. Why bother trying to afterburn your way clear of tackle when you can just hit a button and you're gone? Check out my sig its pretty cool
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.12 10:23:00 - [15] ECM burst works as designed - breaking locks for GTFO!!
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 10:31:00 - [16] Edited by: Morel Nova on 12/04/2010 10:31:24 Originally by: Marko Riva Edited by: Marko Riva on 12/04/2010 09:53:30 Also: ONE OF YOUR CYNABAL LOSSES WHERE YOU FIT ECM BURST. Get out! yes i died once inside a drag bubble, because I was dualboxing and trying to save my alt at the same time. not sure what you are trying to prove, I admit I fly them myself. I mean why limit yourself when they are so powerful? also its the only way to show CCP that it needs to be looked at for balancing purposes. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Darthewok Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.04.12 10:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Cpt Branko The module itself is just fine on non-angel ships. angel ships are OP not the module. /thread
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.12 10:53:00 - [18] Edited by: Marko Riva on 12/04/2010 10:55:29 I like the ~elite PVPer~ touch, the truth is that you're still pointing fingers at something being overpowered while a) flying them yourself and b) flying overpowered dualprop Dramiels. Appearantly the only one "allowed" to whine about them is Intigo, as he chooses to not use them. Again, ECM burst IS chance based (although if you're solo and not sporting ECCM the chance is rather high, but that's a choice, if you can fit WCS on dramiels you can also fit ECCM while trying to lure in cynabals), on a 30 second timer and you can relock instantly. If you KNOW you're fighting a ship that might have ECM burst simply spam the "target lock" button and hit scram again when neccesarily. Besides, some targets may actually get away from you. I know this is very unfair and all and they should just accept death but it happens. Imo, they should rethink all Angel faction ships because they're rediculous atm. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.12 10:58:00 - [19] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 12/04/2010 10:58:45 Originally by: Morel Nova Powerful E-War should be reserved for dedicated ships, and the Burst should only really be viable on the scorpion, not on a 4km/s cruiser. you rant about non-dedicated ECM ships fitting ECM burst while flying a frigate faster than every interceptor(dedicated ships) ingame?? The dramiel requires a nerf, not ECM burst.
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 11:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Cpt Branko The module itself is just fine on non-angel ships. How would you go about executing a nerf to it's powers on angel boats then (where it undoubtedly deserves one)? ----------------------------------------------- www.eve-arena.com
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 11:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 12/04/2010 10:58:45 Originally by: Morel Nova Powerful E-War should be reserved for dedicated ships, and the Burst should only really be viable on the scorpion, not on a 4km/s cruiser. you rant about non-dedicated ECM ships fitting ECM burst while flying a frigate faster than every interceptor(dedicated ships) ingame?? The dramiel requires a nerf, not ECM burst. the dramiel isnt the issue here. I'm talking about cynabals. ECM bursts are even more efficent against ceptors. although I have seen burst dramiels about also, they are pretty nasty, but the lower cap on them makes using the module a lot less efficient. my taranis or stiletto would have the same problem. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.12 11:05:00 - [22] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/04/2010 11:07:12 Originally by: Morel Nova the dramiel isnt the issue here. I'm talking about cynabals. ECM bursts are even more efficent against ceptors. although I have seen burst dramiels about also, they are pretty nasty, but the lower cap on them makes using the module a lot less efficient. my taranis or stiletto would have the same problem. I hear wcs + burst fit Dramael is fun But yeah, I can see how the thing is just OP on the Cynabal, it's just that the module has so far never really been a problem, since a lot of the speed ships couldn't fit it without gimping themselves because of midslots, and slow ships aren't that hard to kill even with one. I'd really say it's more of a Cynabal issue then anything. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
JASON W0RTHING future of humankind Wayfarer Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2010.04.12 11:10:00 - [23] I just want you to think for a tiny, eensy, weensy, little second about what said Cynabal pilot is sacrificing to fit said ECM burst. You may view my kb on battleclinic. It will confirm my statement here that I am in fact one of the worst pvpers in the game. I am however a leet theorycrafter and surprisingly accurate parrot of more experienced pvpers. Hence, while you may contest my post, if you do so without logic and with more killboard finger-pointing I will proceed to make you look like a r3tard with my superior forumfu.
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 11:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/04/2010 11:07:12 Originally by: Morel Nova the dramiel isnt the issue here. I'm talking about cynabals. ECM bursts are even more efficent against ceptors. although I have seen burst dramiels about also, they are pretty nasty, but the lower cap on them makes using the module a lot less efficient. my taranis or stiletto would have the same problem. I hear wcs + burst fit Dramael is fun But yeah, I can see how the thing is just OP on the Cynabal, it's just that the module has so far never really been a problem, since a lot of the speed ships couldn't fit it without gimping themselves because of midslots, and slow ships aren't that hard to kill even with one. I'd really say it's more of a Cynabal issue then anything. But how would you nerf the ECM Burst fit Cyna without gimping "less OP" (albeit good) regular fits? ----------------------------------------------- www.eve-arena.com
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.12 11:15:00 - [25] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/04/2010 11:17:50 Originally by: Raimo But how would you nerf the ECM Burst fit Cyna without gimping "less OP" (albeit good) regular fits? I have no idea, honestly. I get this feeling that CCP will do the usual thing and just nerf Angel ships with a heavy hand because of all the drama they're creating, which would be a shame. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.12 11:20:00 - [26] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 12/04/2010 11:21:40 the "issue" is you're ranting about legitimate tactics for denying you sure kills with your op dramiel. I dont see something wrong with that, if you can fit a warp scrambler on every non-dedicated ship (anything but interceptor) there is no reason why one should not be able to fit counters for that. Since speed is not working for getting out of your scramble range, ECM burst is a better choice. Accept that.
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 12:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 12/04/2010 11:21:40 the "issue" is you're ranting about legitimate tactics for denying you sure kills with your op dramiel. I dont see something wrong with that, if you can fit a warp scrambler on every non-dedicated ship (anything but interceptor) there is no reason why one should not be able to fit counters for that. Since speed is not working for getting out of your scramble range, ECM burst is a better choice. Accept that. I regret mentioning dramiels at all, stop trying to derail our balance discussion that is limited to cynabals & the ecm burst module. as I said all frigs face the same problem and there are a lot of other dramiel/frig threads to moan in Reward small gang/solo pvp!
foksieloy Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.12 12:19:00 - [28] Not overpowered. Carry on, nothing to see here folks. Well, failOP tears are kind off nice... _______________________ We come for our people!
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.12 12:29:00 - [29] Originally by: Morel Nova I regret mentioning dramiels at all, stop trying to derail our balance discussion that is limited to cynabals & the ecm burst module. as I said all frigs face the same problem and there are a lot of other dramiel/frig threads to moan in well, my argument is valid for all other frigs also. If you can fit a point, the victim is free to fit a counter for getting rid of your point - he sacrifices a mid slot and does not even get a success guarantee for that. Its all right.
lookatzebirdie	Posted - 2010.04.12 12:35:00 - [30] Edited by: lookatzebirdie on 12/04/2010 12:35:47 Not that I don't respect genos and love their vids but i just lost a little respect for them when they used the "we are 1337 pvpers and your a noob so we must be right" argument instead of actually making a point. Yes WCS drams and Burst Cynabals are LOL:OP but it's because the ships themselves are bordering on LOL:OP already. They need reigning in A LITTLE BIT and then all will be well. If the Dram can get away with using a WCS tho it shows that needs it's scan res srsly nerf batted.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.04.12 12:43:00 - [31] Originally by: lookatzebirdie They need reigning in A LITTLE BIT and then all will be well. Sod that, nerf 'em to Worm levels just for the lulz.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.12 13:49:00 - [32] Originally by: foksieloy Not overpowered. Carry on, nothing to see here folks. Well, failOP tears are kind off nice... Yeah, Genos really never fly Dramiels, Cynabals and stuff with wcs and/or ecm burst Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.12 14:56:00 - [33] lol at wanting a nerf to ecm burst when posting about a Dramiel tackling a Cynabal.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.04.12 15:05:00 - [34] Since dramiels are originally intended to counter everything, obviously ECM bursts should be nerfed as it disallows cookie-cutter fit dramiels to do just that.
Greg6	Posted - 2010.04.12 15:42:00 - [35] Oh, my gosh. A dram pilot calling for a nerf on something other than the dram. That's rich. :)
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.12 16:08:00 - [36] Wow, terribly obvious troll and so many people falling for it
Mistress Frome Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.04.12 17:02:00 - [37] A+ topic
Steve Celeste Caldari Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2010.04.12 17:25:00 - [38] Edited by: Steve Celeste on 12/04/2010 17:25:51 A Genos pilot complaining about FOTM, priceless. Edit: damn you OP, I fell for it.
Kimura Masahiko Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 17:28:00 - [39] Originally by: Steve Celeste Edited by: Steve Celeste on 12/04/2010 17:25:51 A Genos pilot complaining about FOTM, priceless. Edit: damn you OP, I fell for it. Ships are only FOTM because we fly them. Not our fault 90% of eve uses our killboard as a textbook for ships and fittings. Check out my sig its pretty cool
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.12 17:49:00 - [40] Originally by: Kimura Masahiko Ships are only FOTM because we fly them. Not our fault 90% of eve uses our killboard as a textbook for ships and fittings. 90% of eve doesnt even know who you guys are tbh.
lot job	Posted - 2010.04.12 18:17:00 - [41] You guys stink of troll... ...if I recall you were preaching about the ECM burst and 2 WCS fitted cynabal in a thread last week just for the reactions.
GavinGoodrich Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.04.12 18:35:00 - [42] Watching a genos guy whine about game mechanics just made mah day \o
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.12 18:51:00 - [43] I don't think the OP has good argument. In fact it looks like a troll However, before the Great Nano Nerf when we had 90% webs, when a webbed target broke tackle with ECM burst, there was still a chance for frigate to relock and scramble it before it reached 80% velocity to enter warp.
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.12 20:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Ephemeron I don't think the OP has good argument. In fact it looks like a troll However, before the Great Nano Nerf when we had 90% webs, when a webbed target broke tackle with ECM burst, there was still a chance for frigate to relock and scramble it before it reached 80% velocity to enter warp. they would have to be very on the ball. the cynabal has very high agility, much higher than the vagas of olden days. so far its worked fine. and no its not a troll, havent you guys run into this stuff? its everywhere in 0.0 now Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.12 21:15:00 - [45] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 12/04/2010 21:16:05 Okay, wait a minute. I would be inclined to agree, but isn't this you?? Originally by: Morel Nova Edited by: Morel Nova on 09/04/2010 19:47:34 I can vouch for Kims setup. I'v never managed to die in it yet and have probably clocked up like 40 kills in it by now. its ALMOST impossible to die in it. My fit is slightly changed though but with some added survivability. with your amazing top speed it doesnt matter that the WCSs reduce lockrange when soloing so sensor booster is better used for ECM burst when you need to get out fast. it has a close to 100% chance of jamming frigates scrambling you. (for gangs use a more dps oriented fit though): [Dramiel, genos solo burst] Overdrive Injector System II 'Stoic' Core Equalizer I 'Stoic' Core Equalizer I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Coreli C-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive 'Cetus' ECM Shockwave I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 'Balefire' Rocket Launcher, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Auxiliary Thrusters II Warrior II x3 Hornet EC-300 x1 t2 speed rig isnt essential, but worth the isk when you are already paying a bit and will probably never die. And here too? Originally by: Morel Nova winning is all that matter imho. thats the type of stuff peopel sprout when they have lost to a superior setup Whether it's the person who started this thread, or posted in the S&M forum, I think someone hijacked this account.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.12 21:17:00 - [46] Originally by: Morel Nova they would have to be very on the ball. the cynabal has very high agility, much higher than the vagas of olden days. so far its worked fine. and no its not a troll, havent you guys run into this stuff? its everywhere in 0.0 now I can see how it can be very effective against frigs. Usually I engage stuff in battleship (often ECCM fitted) and Tengu with 30 strength so I haven't personally encountered this problem Considering that this ECM burst tactic is particularly effective on angel faction ships, it would be inappropriate to nerf ECM burst. The issue is in the ship.
Dark Lightening	Posted - 2010.04.12 21:38:00 - [47] A few people have used a counter to escape your dramiel and you decided to make a forum thread about changing the game instead of just changing your own fit???? * Face Palm *
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.12 22:01:00 - [48] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/04/2010 22:02:34 Originally by: Ephemeron Considering that this ECM burst tactic is particularly effective on angel faction ships, it would be inappropriate to nerf ECM burst. The issue is in the ship. Its effective on pretty much every ship that has at least one midslot, spam warp while aligning out and hit the ecm burst hotkey. But guess what, its working as intended, since software developers usually have a rudimentary understanding of maths you can be sure they knew what the module would do to sensors of frigates. (And its not a really new idea either, the WCS claw is pretty lulz too if you want to enrage ppl by just warping off, penalties mean nothing to the ship really.)
Entgo Ditumi	Posted - 2010.04.12 23:53:00 - [49] Originally by: Morel Nova Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 12/04/2010 11:21:40 the "issue" is you're ranting about legitimate tactics for denying you sure kills with your op dramiel. I dont see something wrong with that, if you can fit a warp scrambler on every non-dedicated ship (anything but interceptor) there is no reason why one should not be able to fit counters for that. Since speed is not working for getting out of your scramble range, ECM burst is a better choice. Accept that. I regret mentioning dramiels at all, stop trying to derail our balance discussion that is limited to cynabals & the ecm burst module. as I said all frigs face the same problem and there are a lot of other dramiel/frig threads to moan in Really? 'Cus it sounds like you're just whining about your dramiel not being the "I WIN" button in every engagement.
Darthewok Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.04.13 01:43:00 - [50] 1. CCP overbuffs Angel ships. 2. Angel ships can fit hilariously OP fits with little tradeoff. 3. FOTM Angel ship flyers now complain modules that are fine on other ships should be nerfed instead of acknowledging Angel ships are OP and they should be nerfed instead. Objective much?
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.13 02:18:00 - [51] basically Cynabals and Dramiels are like the pre-nerf Nano ships, only much cheaper, and restricting the fun of speed to couple ships instead of it being open for all ships like before. ECM burst should not be nerfed any more. If anything, frigate's sensor strength should be boosted across the board. They are too easy now for jamming.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 02:22:00 - [52] Originally by: Ephemeron basically Cynabals and Dramiels are like the pre-nerf Nano ships, only much cheaper, and restricting the fun of speed to couple ships instead of it being open for all ships like before. I can understand the complaint against Dramiels and the need to rein it in a bit, and pardon my ignorance...but what is the Cynabal doing now the Vaga wasn't doing before?
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.13 02:42:00 - [53] Originally by: Seriously Bored I can understand the complaint against Dramiels and the need to rein it in a bit, and pardon my ignorance...but what is the Cynabal doing now the Vaga wasn't doing before? More DPS, more agility, cheaper. I actually like that, except I want it open for all ships, like before the nano nerf. Cynabals remind people just how fun EVE PvP can be with nanos. If you never flew one, try it, you'll feel the difference, you'll realize just what EVE lost with the nano nerf.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.13 05:19:00 - [54] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 13/04/2010 05:20:48 Originally by: Ephemeron More DPS, more agility, cheaper. I actually like that, except I want it open for all ships, like before the nano nerf. Cynabals remind people just how fun EVE PvP can be with nanos. If you never flew one, try it, you'll feel the difference, you'll realize just what EVE lost with the nano nerf. I guess my point was that it seems to be the same people flying them, killing roughly the same targets. "More DPS" comes from its grid and being able to use 425s, nothing crazy with the bonuses or hard points. (The Cynabal has lower maximum turret damage potential than the Vagabond.) And I could be wrong in my assumption that people don't fly around with a full drone bay of Valks, but I doubt it comes from drones. The Cyn was more expensive than the Vaga last I checked, but I have no flipping clue about 0.0 pricing. Can't touch that agility though... I guess what I'm trying to say is I can't understand why the Cynabal is considered overpowered when the Vagabond is not. It only seems to do what the Vaga does slightly better, not completely dominate an entire ship class like the Dramiel does. I'm all aboard the Dramiel nerf train (though I don't want it to be extreme), but I'm still not sold on the Cynabal yet. But a good argument could still sway my opinion.
Darthewok Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.04.13 06:17:00 - [55] 5 low slots + 5 mid slots + 437 CPU/1375 PG ON TOP of vaga-speed, big drone bay and super bonuses! means a complete field day to fit every kind of broken whacked-out fit you can imagine. even if this ECM burst fit is not OP, with that kind of huge fitting room, another OP Cynabal fit will easily come along to take its place. count on it. extreme favoritism has been shown to Angel ships in the pirate ship buff. in giving them far less fitting limits and better specs than other ships. time for them to be brought back in line.
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.13 07:16:00 - [56] Edited by: Morel Nova on 13/04/2010 07:25:09 Originally by: Darthewok 5 low slots + 5 mid slots + 437 CPU/1375 PG ON TOP of vaga-speed, big drone bay and super bonuses! means a complete field day to fit every kind of broken whacked-out fit you can imagine. even if this ECM burst fit is not OP, with that kind of huge fitting room, another OP Cynabal fit will easily come along to take its place. count on it. extreme favoritism has been shown to Angel ships in the pirate ship buff. in giving them far less fitting limits and better specs than other ships. time for them to be brought back in line. not necessarily true for the crusier line (I admit only 70% of the faction frigs are valid). When there is a serpentis epic arc we are going to have massive rage over 1000 dps faction 90% web vigilants killing everything (these will chew up cynabals for breakfast). I totally agree with the "nanoes is fun and we really miss it". ccp needs to bring back some of this. its slightly annoying to just see cynabals everywhere, but its because they are so fun to fly. Other races should have viable alternatives, but there are none and its reasonably fast to train.. so. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Taudia Gallente Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.04.13 09:00:00 - [57] Edited by: Taudia on 13/04/2010 09:00:15 Cynabals are pretty OP as I see it. Personally, I think the nano-ing capabilities of ships like the Ishtar, the Curse, the Gila or the vagabond is plenty and difficult enough to deal with if the pilot is capable. I am not an expert on nano but it seems to me that the cynabal is better in some ways than the ships I just mentioned, if not nearly strictly better than vagabonds. Though I suspect that keeping this particular ship from being very much like a Vagabond or a Hurricane will be difficult, but it is frustrating to deal with ships I basically have to be lucky to counter.
steave435 Caldari Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.04.13 09:01:00 - [58] Max skill ecm burst: 9k optimal, 6k falloff. Optimal+2x falloff=21k Warp disruptor II: 24k optimal
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.13 09:17:00 - [59] Originally by: steave435 Max skill ecm burst: 9k optimal, 6k falloff. Optimal+2x falloff=21k Warp disruptor II: 24k optimal think about it. explain to me how anything disrupting me at that range isnt dead or left behind as I burn away in my AC falloff boosted ship Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.13 09:26:00 - [60] Originally by: Taudia Edited by: Taudia on 13/04/2010 09:00:15 Cynabals are pretty OP as I see it. Personally, I think the nano-ing capabilities of ships like the Ishtar, the Curse, the Gila or the vagabond is plenty and difficult enough to deal with if the pilot is capable. I am not an expert on nano but it seems to me that the cynabal is better in some ways than the ships I just mentioned, if not nearly strictly better than vagabonds. Though I suspect that keeping this particular ship from being very much like a Vagabond or a Hurricane will be difficult, but it is frustrating to deal with ships I basically have to be lucky to counter. Driving off nanoships is generally speaking easy (unless it's a Curse or something, where only epic fail from the pilot will save you or landing on it sub 10km which is again epic fail from the pilot). Killing them is not as trivial, but you've actually got good odds of doing this in a Hurricane if you play your cards right. It's certainly not a big deal to catch most Vagabonds out there, but the Vagabond has such shoddy agility in comparison to the Cynabal. In theory the Cynabal should be much much more difficult to catch, but as never actually had a Cynabal try to fight me, can't really speak from personal experience. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
steave435 Caldari Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.04.13 09:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Morel Nova Originally by: steave435 Max skill ecm burst: 9k optimal, 6k falloff. Optimal+2x falloff=21k Warp disruptor II: 24k optimal think about it. explain to me how anything disrupting me at that range isnt dead or left behind as I burn away in my AC falloff boosted ship [Sentinel, New Setup 1] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Capacitor Power Relay II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Don't really need the cap mods, it's just there to prove it can be done with cap not being an issue. Max skills with barrage loaded in your 425's and 3 T2 tracking enchancers: 0.7 optimal, 8.8 falloff. Total range: 18.3k
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.13 09:47:00 - [62] Originally by: steave435 [Sentinel, New Setup 1] How do you expect to survive in that thing? ;) Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition	Posted - 2010.04.13 10:00:00 - [63] Originally by: Morel Nova not necessarily true for the crusier line (I admit only 70% of the faction frigs are valid). When there is a serpentis epic arc we are going to have massive rage over 1000 dps faction 90% web vigilants killing everything (these will chew up cynabals for breakfast). Proms rage will be epic. Also we already got a ship that demonstrates how good point blank + expensive + cruiser works(even if he Vigilant is less terrible at it). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
steave435 Caldari Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.04.13 10:19:00 - [64] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: steave435 [Sentinel, New Setup 1] How do you expect to survive in that thing? ;) By not getting hit. You even have some lows you can use for tank since that one was built making sure that it could keep up with the fastest cynabals possible (aka all ODs in lows) indefinitely, so it needed cap recharge and extra speed mods to prove that, but you should usually not need more then 1 OD in order to keep up, especially if you fit neuts in the highs. 2 small neuts added on top of already running an ECM burst and a MWD will cap the cynabal out in 30 seconds.
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.13 12:45:00 - [65] Originally by: steave435 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: steave435 [Sentinel, New Setup 1] How do you expect to survive in that thing? ;) By not getting hit. You even have some lows you can use for tank since that one was built making sure that it could keep up with the fastest cynabals possible (aka all ODs in lows) indefinitely, so it needed cap recharge and extra speed mods to prove that, but you should usually not need more then 1 OD in order to keep up, especially if you fit neuts in the highs. 2 small neuts added on top of already running an ECM burst and a MWD will cap the cynabal out in 30 seconds. neut. drones. I'v been tackled by these before and without ECM support or a ton of crap landing fairly fast you either shake tackle because he got too cautions, got too close to get neuted or again back in AC range/had to disengage from drones. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
steave435 Caldari Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.04.13 15:49:00 - [66] Quote: again back in AC range Even dipping a bit into falloff isn't a problem since you're still so far out they hardly have any effect, and most won't even have as many TEs as my example above do. With 2 TE, which seem more likely (an all gank fit would probably fill the rest of the lows with gyros, max speed fits would use spares for speed instead of more TE), the sentinel can come in to 15.7km and still have a 0% risk of being hit by the ACs. The burst has only 43% chance to jam while in optimal, and at, for example, 15km range, the 50% chance of it simply missing and not even being compared to the sensor strength of the sentinel (due to falloff) means the actual chance is about 21.5%. Quote: neut The cynabal will be capped out from the sentinels neuting in pretty much no time, and if necessary, the sentinel has bonused nos to keep itself up if it does enter the 12km neut range (which it shouldn't since it has twice as long point range). Quote: drones As mentioned, you have 2 lows for tank. Even with only 1 overdrive, it can still keep up with almost any cynabal configuration. Even one with 3 aux thrusters in the rig slots and 1 OD or 2 nanos would only match the sentinel with 1 OD. 2 overdrives+1 speed mod of any kind will have you pulling away slowly, but even those willing to give up dps and range for even more speed usually mix in nanos/polycarbs instead to get the agility aswell, so again, 1 OD sentinel will keep up with almost any cynabal, and if you're worried, you can get one of the cheap c-type MWDs to save cap, allowing 1 semi-conductor from the following fit to be swapped for a speed rig, adding an another 10% to the speed. [Sentinel, New Setup 1] Overdrive Injector System II Damage Control II Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I Warrior II x4 Even assuming that they do not get any kind of damage reduction from transversal, it can tank a flight of warriors for several minutes, and that's without heat. That's more then enough time for its own drones to take out any hostile ones. Cap lasts 2 minutes, while the cynabal only last 45 seconds with the small neut on it while running its own mwd and ecm burst (turning the burst off saves 12-13 seconds depending on if you have a T2 or Y-T8 mwd). When the cynabal caps out, the sentinel will loose its cap battery, but since it no longer need to MWD, it will be fine anyway, especially since the cynabal is now slow enough that even a BS can keep up, so it won't live long. Just because the sentinel pilots you've encountered were not skilled enough to keep you there does not mean it does not work. This is ofc completely forgetting the fact that any of the stabber variations can keep up with you and has good enough tank and sensor strength to hold you there, especially if they stay in burst falloff (it may not kill you solo, but not even the faction or T2 version should kill a pirate ship flown with the same style 1v1). Similarily, a vengeance with a scram and eccm will have a hard time catching you, even when MWD fit, but once the scram is on, it will keep up, has good sensor strength and a great tank and can easily fit some nos in highs to provide the scram with the 3 cap it needs/cycle (even if it get neuted, 1 small nos cycle is enough to make the scram go one more cycle). The problem is people not being smart enough to realize how to counter it, not the absence of counter.
LooknSee	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:56:00 - [67] rofl, this thread it funny. So let me see if I understand this... A module that has never been changed since being released is now somehow 'fotm'? Pretty sure that makes no sense at all. FOTMs are, by definition, created when gameplay mechanics are changed. ECM burst has not changed. The only thing that changed here is the cynabal/dramiel. They're the 'fotm' and if anything needs a nerf, it's them. ECM Burst has nothing to do with their "OPness". It's the fact that these ships' natural speed allows them to outrun anything large enough to be resistant to ecm burst. Cut their speed and this 'problem' disappears. Ofc, the OP doesn't desire this sort of change, because he's having all sorts of fun with his newly op faction ships. Another day, another fail lobbyist post on eve-o.
Bomberlocks Minmatar Star Bombers	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:26:00 - [68] Originally by: lookatzebirdie Not that I don't respect genos and love their vids but i just lost a little respect for them when they used the "we are 1337 pvpers and your a noob so we must be right" argument instead of actually making a point. ... This. Ego-peening on forums just puts others off. On Topix, the ECM Burst has never been a problem before because the slot layouts have seldom had a utility mid that one could throw away on a mod that might help, but seldom did. So why nerf ECM bursts because one ship has a utility mid? If you really, desperately, absolutely, will-rage-quit-if-ccp-doesn't-do-this feel the need to nerf something, drop one of the Cyna's midslots. But really, is this such a problem? If the Dram and Cyna are so totally OP, then sooner or later (well, like now), anyone who can afford will be flying them. CCP is slow and dumb pretty often, but they'll notice that and then nerf it, probably.
Taudia Gallente Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.04.13 23:30:00 - [69] Originally by: Cpt Branko Driving off nanoships is generally speaking easy... I fly blasterboats solo. I prefer BC size. Originally by: Cpt Branko Killing them is not as trivial, but you've actually got good odds of doing this in a Hurricane if you play your cards right. It's certainly not a big deal to catch most Vagabonds out there, but the Vagabond has such shoddy agility in comparison to the Cynabal. In theory the Cynabal should be much much more difficult to catch, but as never actually had a Cynabal try to fight me, can't really speak from personal experience. Key part being "in a hurricane". What happens when you're in a ship that does not have good speed or range? Just saying you're using a bit of a simplified scenario here.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:11:00 - [70] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 14/04/2010 01:11:58 Originally by: Taudia Key part being "in a hurricane". What happens when you're in a ship that does not have good speed or range? Just saying you're using a bit of a simplified scenario here. Then you are pretty much in a ship that is a perfect target for the Cynabal. If you could catch up to it in every ship, there would be no point in having a ship that is built around the concept of keeping range, because it would be useless. You could just as well ask "What do I do against an AML Caracal in an AF?", the answer is "You try not to get caught". There are still ways to make yourself a less desirable prey or make it impossible for him to kill your ship though, but unless the other guy makes a mistake you wont catch up to him, that should be common sense.
Darthewok Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.04.14 01:59:00 - [71] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Taudia Edited by: Taudia on 13/04/2010 09:00:15 Cynabals are pretty OP as I see it. Personally, I think the nano-ing capabilities of ships like the Ishtar, the Curse, the Gila or the vagabond is plenty and difficult enough to deal with if the pilot is capable. I am not an expert on nano but it seems to me that the cynabal is better in some ways than the ships I just mentioned, if not nearly strictly better than vagabonds. Though I suspect that keeping this particular ship from being very much like a Vagabond or a Hurricane will be difficult, but it is frustrating to deal with ships I basically have to be lucky to counter. Driving off nanoships is generally speaking easy (unless it's a Curse or something, where only epic fail from the pilot will save you or landing on it sub 10km which is again epic fail from the pilot). Killing them is not as trivial, but you've actually got good odds of doing this in a Hurricane if you play your cards right. It's certainly not a big deal to catch most Vagabonds out there, but the Vagabond has such shoddy agility in comparison to the Cynabal. In theory the Cynabal should be much much more difficult to catch, but as never actually had a Cynabal try to fight me, can't really speak from personal experience. Cynabals are a totally different kettle of tea from Vagas. Vagas nano/GTFO ability is balanced by 1) its squishiness/weakness if it does get careless. So maybe out of 10 times you engage one you kill it 2/3 times. 2) no space in the mids for dual prop/ECM burst. 3) its weak DPS making it a challenge to attack larger ships, meaning need for target selection. and that you can chase it off. Cynabals completely removed ALL THREE OF THESE BALANCING FACTORS. A Vaga that you cannot chase off due to higher gank/tank, that you cannot even catch if it is careless (because of dual prop/ECM burst)? OVERPOWERED. So of course everyone flies them as it is Vaga on steroids without the downside. I wander every region in 0.0 regularly and have seen the variety of ships on scanner more and more replaced by Cynabals and Dramiels. Naturally FOTM flyers and KM farmers will defend their ship, but it is causing the game to become very monotonous in terms of ship variety.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.14 02:55:00 - [72] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 14/04/2010 03:01:32 Originally by: Darthewok Cynabals completely removed ALL THREE OF THESE BALANCING FACTORS. Nonsense, they can choose to remove exactly ONE of these. If it has dual prop, it doesnt have ECM burst or superior tank. If it has superior tank, it doesnt have dual prop or ECM burst. If it has ECM burst, it doesnt have superior tank or dual prop. Originally by: Darthewok I wander every region in 0.0 regularly and have seen the variety of ships on scanner more and more replaced by Cynabals and Dramiels. My personal observation is that these ships are most popular in the insanely blobby areas, which might be due to the fact that they are the only ones actually making it past the chokepoints. (In fact, the very subject of this thread, people fitting ECM bursts to get rid of tackle frigates on one of the fastest, best frigate killing ships in the game, should be food for thought.) Thats not only a 0.0 phenomenon, you can also see this in those parts of lowsec where engaging something in a belt with your rifter means you get 20 ships dropped on you in a matter of seconds. FW with interceptors and fast-locking frigates on pretty much every gate and system backed up by 10-20 man gangs does its part as well in making flying everything but the fastest ships a suicide run. Now I like flying BCs as well, in fact my favourite ship class, but if you lose five of them to ganks before you even get a chance to fight (you get blobbed in that fight as well, but at least might kill something)... you get the idea. Try to look at it from the other guys perspective, he might want to fly something else as well, and if you wouldnt blob him to hell and back the second he enters system, he might fly a different ship that annoys you less.
Darthewok Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.04.14 03:18:00 - [73] in addition, i see lots of multiple dramiel/cynabal teams around. they are far far more dangerous than the inty/vaga teams that previously were around as they have much more DPS to kill more stuff quicker and much more GTFO ability. basically the OPness of the individual ships are compounded in groups and in combination. people can pretend Cynabal/Dramiel are not OP all they want, but in the end the ridiculous amount they are being used says all anyone needs to know. they are OP with respect to other ships and need a nerf to preserve the balance of power between ships.
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.04.14 03:19:00 - [74] Edited by: Patri Andari on 14/04/2010 03:25:14 Originally by: LooknSee rofl, this thread it funny. So let me see if I understand this... A module that has never been changed since being released is now somehow 'fotm'? Pretty sure that makes no sense at all. FOTMs are, by definition, created when gameplay mechanics are changed. ECM burst has not changed. Sooo,...what game play mechanics were changed to make Ham Drake viable to become FOTM? Just sayin.. Patri I'll Roshambo you for that Titan
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.14 03:21:00 - [75] They are overpowered for the price If I were to judge true value of Cynabal, I'd put it around 400 mil Dramiel value I'd put around 170 mil If they cost that much to lose, I'd be content with them flying around, cause I know they will die eventually, it's just a matter of time. Time and money.
Darthewok Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.04.14 03:30:00 - [76] Originally by: Omara Otawan Besides, it seems like you defeated one of these horribly overpowered dualprop FOTM dps monsters in your Jaguar... doesnt seem that overpowered to me. Fact of the matter is, it dies to a cleverly flown ship just like anything else, the annoying part is that they excel at choosing engagements, but get over it already, there will always be a ship that can do that. shhh... i suck at PVP!
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.14 05:20:00 - [77] Originally by: Darthewok Originally by: Omara Otawan Besides, it seems like you defeated one of these horribly overpowered dualprop FOTM dps monsters in your Jaguar... doesnt seem that overpowered to me. Fact of the matter is, it dies to a cleverly flown ship just like anything else, the annoying part is that they excel at choosing engagements, but get over it already, there will always be a ship that can do that. shhh... i suck at PVP! Newsflash, the speedfit Dram just sucks solo :P ----------------------------------------------- www.eve-arena.com
Darthewok Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.04.14 05:22:00 - [78] Edited by: Darthewok on 14/04/2010 05:25:01 Originally by: Raimo Originally by: Darthewok Originally by: Omara Otawan Besides, it seems like you defeated one of these horribly overpowered dualprop FOTM dps monsters in your Jaguar... doesnt seem that overpowered to me. Fact of the matter is, it dies to a cleverly flown ship just like anything else, the annoying part is that they excel at choosing engagements, but get over it already, there will always be a ship that can do that. shhh... i suck at PVP! Newsflash, the speedfit Dram just sucks solo :P actually all my Dramiel kills are of new Dramiel pilots or weird fits. does not prove Dramiel is not OP. whereas experienced Dramiel pilots are pretty unbeatable 1v1.
Smabs	Posted - 2010.04.14 08:52:00 - [79] Edited by: Smabs on 14/04/2010 08:53:06 to be honest a lot of scanning in the busier ares is starting to show dramiel, dramiel, cynabal, dramiel, cynabal, cynabal etc. I just bought one of the damn things just because I don't feel like I can really compete in other ships - trying to fight an experienced pilot in a dramiel is mostly an exercise in frustration. The ecm burst thing really does kinda suck, especially if it becomes widespread. Inties have a hard enough time not dying to cynabals already. Edit: at least the price of cynabals has gone over 200 mil, although I don't know if that's just the result of increased demand.
Bongo Debbie Minmatar Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.04.14 10:03:00 - [80] ECM burst and sig tanking is the real issue. Combined its possible to take on crazy things like 1v5 and survive. Anyone buying a Dramiel to counter Dramiels is an idiot. ----
Smabs	Posted - 2010.04.14 10:13:00 - [81] So what frigate do you suggest flying over a dramiel?
Bongo Debbie Minmatar Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.04.14 10:21:00 - [82] Buffer Malediction or Daredevil for starters. ----
Smabs	Posted - 2010.04.14 10:31:00 - [83] Daredevil, sure, not so sure about a buffer malediction. Although a daredevil is much more expensive and much less survivable, generally. But anyway I'm not sure how you'd fix the ecm burst thing without either removing a midslot on the cyna or changing the mechanic.
Darthewok Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.04.14 11:16:00 - [84] Originally by: Smabs to be honest a lot of scanning in the busier areas is starting to show dramiel, dramiel, cynabal, dramiel, cynabal, cynabal etc. yeah people can make whatever justification they want but in the end this ^^ shows what is happening. i don't like freaking encountering only the same 2 ships over and over again. its boring. nerf em back in line, let the skies be filled again with a variety of ships and more variation in PVP dynamics.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.14 11:44:00 - [85] Originally by: Patri Andari Edited by: Patri Andari on 14/04/2010 03:25:14 Originally by: LooknSee rofl, this thread it funny. So let me see if I understand this... A module that has never been changed since being released is now somehow 'fotm'? Pretty sure that makes no sense at all. FOTMs are, by definition, created when gameplay mechanics are changed. ECM burst has not changed. Sooo,...what game play mechanics were changed to make Ham Drake viable to become FOTM? Nano nerf(s), that made "normal" ships viable again. Partly because they don't have to nano and partly because missiles now can actually hit stuff. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.14 12:47:00 - [86] Originally by: Darthewok in addition, i see lots of multiple dramiel/cynabal teams around. they are far far more dangerous than the inty/vaga teams that previously were around as they have much more DPS to kill more stuff quicker and much more GTFO ability. basically the OPness of the individual ships are compounded in groups and in combination. not sure what you mean. they have more GTFO:ness, but for gangs they will be less efficient with scimitar support due to worse resists. in the general fits cynabals have less dps than vagabonds though (but not much) Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Haramir Haleths Caldari Nutella Bande	Posted - 2010.04.14 13:07:00 - [87] Stay out of Burst Range. Problem solved. Things can be so easy.
Ospie Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.04.14 13:27:00 - [88] I think you'd have to be pretty ignorant to deny that dramiels & cynabals are a bit imbalanced at the moment, they both want a bit of a check. As has been said it's bad enough for ships that can catch up with a cynabal w/o having to deal with an ecm burst, in my experience any cynabal pilot that sees something that might be able to counter it will gtfo anyway so it's only really the uncautious/dumb pilots who're generally put in the situation of being caught. It doesn't help that the ships that can counter it aren't exactly flown much either since they're generally a bit unconventional/impractical anyway. As far as FW goes.. I'm not sure about gallente:caldari but in the amarr:minmatar scene it's not terribly populated any more, especially by those hordes of sensor boosted intys with 20 man gangs on call, if anything the cynabal and dramiel changes have detered many pilots from flying intys. Now, I'm not saying that I want to see them nerfed cause they beat me or w/e, I rarely bother fighting them myself and have a reasonable record against them, also my corp has 10 pilots or so who fly their cynabals alot. Competent pilots in their own right but the cynabal just makes it that much easier for them. I'd still rather their combat stats go down a bit (if at all) and see cynabals/drams nerfed than keep those ships in their current state.
Jarne Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vivisection.	Posted - 2010.04.14 15:09:00 - [89] If it hasn't been mentioned yet, use a LG Jackal set. Cheap as hell and gives an extra 7 points sensor strength flat. Also, whining about not being able to catch a FOTM *** while being a FOTM *** seems silly to me. Also, how is ECM burst any better than neutralizers, Warrior IIs or ECM drones? - Success=Achievements/Expectations
Smabs	Posted - 2010.04.14 15:31:00 - [90] Although cynabals get ecm drones, warrior II's, a medium neut and an ecm burst.
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.14 15:51:00 - [91] Edited by: Morel Nova on 14/04/2010 15:51:39 Originally by: Jarne If it hasn't been mentioned yet, use a LG Jackal set. Cheap as hell and gives an extra 7 points sensor strength flat. interesting, didnt think about that because I thought they were easily 300+ mil. no market access atm, how much are they? Reward small gang/solo pvp!
steave435 Caldari Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.04.14 17:46:00 - [92] Originally by: Morel Nova Edited by: Morel Nova on 14/04/2010 15:51:39 Originally by: Jarne If it hasn't been mentioned yet, use a LG Jackal set. Cheap as hell and gives an extra 7 points sensor strength flat. interesting, didnt think about that because I thought they were easily 300+ mil. no market access atm, how much are they? 80m for a set in jita atm.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.14 18:46:00 - [93] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 14/04/2010 18:48:23 Originally by: steave435 80m for a set in jita atm. Wow, thats a bargain At this rate, I'm gonna buy one right now, +7 sensor is a huge advantage for frigs and cruisers / HACs with their notoriously low sensor strength. Case closed it seems...
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.15 01:27:00 - [94] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/04/2010 01:28:47 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/04/2010 01:28:02 Originally by: Darthewok A Vaga that you cannot chase off due to higher gank/tank, that you cannot even catch if it is careless (because of dual prop/ECM burst)? Idk, I had one engage me the first time (ehp fit) and instead of doing the usual Vagabond trick (exploding) he got away in half hull Damn faction ships and their armor/hull HP. Definitely a lot sturdier ship when EHP fitted then a Vagabond, but it can't do all the things you say at the same time, you know? It's either got more EHP (except vs lasers) or has ecm burst or has dual prop (or sensor booster to combine with wcs, lol), can't do all three at the same time obviously. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Darthewok Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.04.15 02:46:00 - [95] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/04/2010 01:28:47 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/04/2010 01:28:02 Originally by: Darthewok A Vaga that you cannot chase off due to higher gank/tank, that you cannot even catch if it is careless (because of dual prop/ECM burst)? Idk, I had one engage me the first time (ehp fit) and instead of doing the usual Vagabond trick (exploding) he got away in half hull Damn faction ships and their armor/hull HP. Definitely a lot sturdier ship when EHP fitted then a Vagabond, but it can't do all the things you say at the same time, you know? It's either got more EHP (except vs lasers) or has ecm burst or has dual prop (or sensor booster to combine with wcs, lol), can't do all three at the same time obviously. ok, it can't do all 3 at once i suppose but to do just 1 or 2 of the 3 already raises its survival rate ridiculously i understand people enjoying hum-drumiel/cy-no-balls for a while and benefiting from them but this is getting old
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.15 09:46:00 - [96] Originally by: Darthewok Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/04/2010 01:28:47 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/04/2010 01:28:02 Originally by: Darthewok A Vaga that you cannot chase off due to higher gank/tank, that you cannot even catch if it is careless (because of dual prop/ECM burst)? Idk, I had one engage me the first time (ehp fit) and instead of doing the usual Vagabond trick (exploding) he got away in half hull Damn faction ships and their armor/hull HP. Definitely a lot sturdier ship when EHP fitted then a Vagabond, but it can't do all the things you say at the same time, you know? It's either got more EHP (except vs lasers) or has ecm burst or has dual prop (or sensor booster to combine with wcs, lol), can't do all three at the same time obviously. ok, it can't do all 3 at once i suppose but to do just 1 or 2 of the 3 already raises its survival rate ridiculously i understand people enjoying hum-drumiel/cy-no-balls for a while and benefiting from them but this is getting old so what do you propose it should get instead for the extra 120 mil or so you have to sink into the ship? cynabals were massively unbalanced at 120 mil price. now that they are 220+ or so its fine. they are just still so common due to people having bought a ton when they were cheap due to that accidental BPO drop fiasco. I'm not buying any more for a while, because I can get "pretty close" to the performance on a vagabond at less than half price. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Jekyl Eraser	Posted - 2010.04.15 13:03:00 - [97] Those speedy ships are the only ships you can solo in and have a chance vs the blobs. Wish there were more of them. Dramiel is a bit too much but cynabal is just too much like vagabond++. It needs some stat(s) weaker than vaga...like 5% less speed or 15% less cap. In the end i think supply and demand take care of the price difference and cynabal will have 2x or bigger price tag over vagabond.
Morel Nova Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.15 14:33:00 - [98] Originally by: Jekyl Eraser Those speedy ships are the only ships you can solo in and have a chance vs the blobs. Wish there were more of them. Dramiel is a bit too much but cynabal is just too much like vagabond++. It needs some stat(s) weaker than vaga...like 5% less speed or 15% less cap. In the end i think supply and demand take care of the price difference and cynabal will have 2x or bigger price tag over vagabond. pretty much this. they should have a ship per race capable of this tbh. make sacrilige nanoable again, make deimos very speedy/agile perhaps, caldari has navy caracal so they are pretty fine. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.15 18:10:00 - [99] Originally by: Morel Nova pretty much this. they should have a ship per race capable of this tbh. make sacrilige nanoable again, make deimos very speedy/agile perhaps, caldari has navy caracal so they are pretty fine. Ishtar, Zealot, Sacrilege and even Deimos all make better nano ships than the Navy Caracal tbh. The only race that lacks a viable option in that regard is caldari.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.15 21:30:00 - [100] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Morel Nova pretty much this. they should have a ship per race capable of this tbh. make sacrilige nanoable again, make deimos very speedy/agile perhaps, caldari has navy caracal so they are pretty fine. Ishtar, Zealot, Sacrilege and even Deimos all make better nano ships than the Navy Caracal tbh. The only race that lacks a viable option in that regard is caldari. Gila works with ze snakes. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.16 00:22:00 - [101] Originally by: Cpt Branko Gila works with ze snakes. Yes it does, and you dont really need the snakes though a LG set pushes performance quite a bit in addition to the cheap Zor's. But its a gallente / caldari hybrid, with the imo more important skill being gallente cruiser, so not really an immediate option for the fully caldari specced player, even if gallente cruiser 5 doesnt take long in the grand scheme of things.
Darthewok Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2010.04.16 02:36:00 - [102] Re: all this talk about cost justifying a better ship, Cost is a lousy balancing factor. a) t2 and pirate prices fluctuate unpredictably so the whole pirate/t2 balance keeps varying. b) the average level of wealth in EVE keeps increasing so cost becomes less and less a barrier. c) if you end up with ships with super high survivability eg. 1 to 50 loss ratio like Dramiel/Cynabal, the cost becomes a small issue as it seldom dies anyway. d) having a much better pirate ship than the t2 competitor turns EVE into a pay-for-victory rather than a player skill game. in other words, PVP becomes an elitist thing where you have to buy the top pirate ships just to compete. this is perverting game balance mechanics of diminishing returns to ISK and returns to player skill. So do realize this when you are thinking i pay lots of money, i should get a much better ship. you are thinking pvp is determined by ISK not by skill any more.
ImAPostingAlt	Posted - 2010.04.16 10:34:00 - [103] Dram and Cyna could both do to gain a bit of mass. Their base speed isn't bad, but due to the lower mass the effects of speed mods is much larger than on other ships of their class. It also happens to make them the most moneuverable ships in the game. For the Cyna rearrange base speed/mass/inertia mod to so align time under MWD with a single nano and aux thrusters is in the low 5s range and speed is around 2600m/s. It's then slightly more maneuverable, slightly slower, can fit ECM burst/more tank/dual prop(but only 1). It would be similar to a Vaga but not the same. For the Dram take 300m/s off under MWD and bump align time up by 0.3s under MWD. It still would be ceptor fast with more EHP, just not faster than ceptor fast. Also needs drone bay/bandwidth cut by 10; those drones significantly contribute to the Drams DPS. It'll still have flavor, and still be good, but it won't be as crazy OPed as it is atm. Somehow I get the feeling that when CCP 'fixes' these ships they'll go with their tradition sledgehammer into oblivion approach rather than tweaking these ships so that they still have a place. With the changes I suggested that each of the ships will still have a place, but won't be blatantly better at EVERYTHING like they are now.
Morgaine Veruq	Posted - 2010.04.16 14:00:00 - [104] Originally by: ImAPostingAlt Somehow I get the feeling that when CCP 'fixes' these ships they'll go with their tradition sledgehammer into oblivion approach rather than tweaking these ships so that they still have a place. With the changes I suggested that each of the ships will still have a place, but won't be blatantly better at EVERYTHING like they are now. I hope that they will make an exception with the sledgehammer on this one, the Cynabal/Dramiel has been one of those ships that enabled solo play in this game. I guess its easier to whine and have CCP "fix" your problem for you than put a little thought into countering a particular fit. Oh, and Morel, you still upset about me having the audacity of fitting a scram on my Cyna? Linkage. Lol.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.16 14:40:00 - [105] Originally by: Morgaine Veruq the Cynabal/Dramiel has been one of those ships that enabled solo play in this game. There was no solo before the Cynabal/Dramael and there will be no solo if they get nerfed Originally by: Morgaine Veruq Linkage. Lol. Wow, you can kill a Cynabal with 9 ships.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.16 16:16:00 - [106] Originally by: Cpt Branko There was no solo before the Cynabal/Dramael and there will be no solo if they get nerfed On that note, pre-dramiel, I found there was a lot more solo pilots flying around in a wide variety of ships. Cormorants, rifters, punishers, tristans, ruptures, thoraxes etc. Now, less people solo and those that are, dramiel :(
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.16 16:31:00 - [107] Edited by: Merdaneth on 16/04/2010 16:31:55 Originally by: Morgaine Veruq I hope that they will make an exception with the sledgehammer on this one, the Cynabal/Dramiel has been one of those ships that enabled solo play in this game. I was soloing much better before the Dramiel/Cynabal thing. Now many of my regular solo opponents fly Cynabal/Dramiel, forcing me to fly the same, since other solo ships won't stand a chance against them, depriving me of many targets. Additionally, Cynabal/Dramiel are better against the blob too. Less choice in EVE = bad. Nerf Cynabal and Dramiel so that it becomes an option again for the solo pilot instead of a must. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Morgaine Veruq	Posted - 2010.04.16 18:55:00 - [108] Originally by: Cpt Branko Wow, you can kill a Cynabal with 9 ships. And you fail at reading a killboard mail, and getting the point I was trying to make
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.16 19:00:00 - [109] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/04/2010 19:05:52 Originally by: Merdaneth Now many of my regular solo opponents fly Cynabal/Dramiel, forcing me to fly the same, since other solo ships won't stand a chance against them, depriving me of many targets. caugh Daredevil caugh (aka the next whine magnet people cry about not being able to beat it, ruining their solo fun, being the only viable ship etc) Nobody forces you to fly anything, but sure you dont expect to solo a pirate frigate in your crusader, right? If you get caught by them in your crusader, you are just terrible.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.16 19:45:00 - [110] Originally by: Omara Otawan caugh Daredevil caugh (aka the next whine magnet people cry about not being able to beat it, ruining their solo fun, being the only viable ship etc) ..... If you get caught by them in your crusader, you are just terrible. Daredevil is rendered useless by anything with a neut, doesn't out pace 100% of ships in game and practically demands super-pimp (2+ faction mods) for effectiveness. So I highly doubt it will be the next "target", I for one have no intention of roasting it except in space Crusader, the fastest interceptor thanks to low-slots, is overtaken by a Dramiel with a single speed mod .. good luck not getting caught. Cynabal is "slow" enough not to catch most MWD frigates except for the heavier ones, fall-off makes it a pointless thing anyway .. just blow **** up as it leaves point range ECM Burst is powerful, but with a 30s cycle even a BS has time to relock and fire quite a bit before it can be used again. It is still infinitely worse than the ECM drones. We just need the lowslot ECCM buffed to a point where it is useful so frigates can hold the suckers down long enough.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.16 19:54:00 - [111] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/04/2010 19:55:50 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Daredevil is rendered useless by anything with a neut, doesn't out pace 100% of ships in game and practically demands super-pimp (2+ faction mods) for effectiveness. You do realize regardless what frigate you are in (bar the one counter, the cruor), you are spacedust before you neuted him down, right? That is if he doesnt have a NOS and just laughs at your neut anyway. With a faction web it actually outpaces everything inside 18km, and thats the only faction mod a good fitting needs. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Crusader, the fastest interceptor thanks to low-slots, is overtaken by a Dramiel with a single speed mod .. good luck not getting caught. Well, first off, crusader being faster than a claw is broken anyway, and secondly there is no reason to get caught because you warp off before he dropped out of warp on your grid, warp off if he comes closer than 70km etc. I take it you dont solo in ceptors that much?
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.04.16 20:52:00 - [112] Sader is not fastest inty, claw is. Also dramiel is 1k faster than sader/claw and it doesnt need any speedmod for it. Daredevil is antifrig ship, nothing more. It dies horribly to anything bigger and lacks speed and dualprop to disengage at will. There is good reason why drams are flown much more often than dds and other frigs.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.16 21:09:00 - [113] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/04/2010 21:16:06 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Also dramiel is 1k faster than sader/claw and it doesnt need any speedmod for it. Wrong, Dramiel without speed mods goes 5059ms, my standard Claw fit goes 5239ms. Doesnt change when overheating either. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Daredevil is antifrig ship, nothing more. It dies horribly to anything bigger and lacks speed and dualprop to disengage at will. Good luck disengaging from AB frigates with your dualprop dramiel 400mm plated rifter is comfortably faster than your webbed Dramiel on overheated AB. The Daredevil can disengage with MWD fit from that btw, and kills it much quicker so less chance to get blobbed. Both can disengage from bigger targets, but admittedly the Dramiel does that easier. None really can take down a competently flown / fitted cruiser (some exceptions, but both take them down, Daredevil just does it faster), so thats moot.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.16 21:53:00 - [114] Originally by: Omara Otawan Nobody forces you to fly anything, but sure you dont expect to solo a pirate frigate in your crusader, right? If you get caught by them in your crusader, you are just terrible. The point is not being able to beat one confidently, although I prefer being able to beat it on the rare occasion when everything is in my favor. The point is that the Dramiel is better than many other of my range of targets ships that many solo pilots (and a number of blob pilots) switched over to it as their primary solo ship, emptying space of potential targets. I choose a ship in its ability to get an exciting engagement. The Crusader served in that purpose, being able to kill but also being able to be killed by a large range of ships. Being able to kill a hostile gave you a reason to engage, being able to be killed gave the opponent an incentive to engage. A solo Dramiels offers little incentive to engage to most ships. The way it can immunize itself against loss, means it also discourages people to engage it, resulting in fewer exciting battles. This means a Dramiel pilot will need to force fights on most opponents since most opponents that it can take, can't beat it. I understand the need and desire to have a ship that can attempt to pick off ships out of a blob and get away with it. I just dislike it disrupting the small ships engagements environment I liked so much to so great an extent. The Dramiel is both a superior anti-blob ship and a superior 1-vs-1 ship. That I dislike. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.16 22:12:00 - [115] Originally by: Merdaneth The point is that the Dramiel is better than many other of my range of targets ships that many solo pilots (and a number of blob pilots) switched over to it as their primary solo ship, emptying space of potential targets. Well, that is pretty much true for all the pirate frigs that are not broken like the worm, you will not beat them in your ceptor or t1 frigate, and have trouble in your AF. The primary reason why so many people switch over to dramiel is the tremendous forum hype, as well as it having the best chance to get away from a heavy bubblecamp. Then again, 90% of dramiels flying around are absolutely horrid fits flown by incompetent pilots, so just assuming you wont be able to kill it deprives you of many kills and good loot. I see your point though, ceptors are my favourite ships to solo in as well, and it annoyed me quite a bit that my claw had to give up its top dog position in fast frigate dogfight. My solution there is to just not give them kills, its not like I have to engage what I do not want to fight, and there are plenty of targets for me all over the place.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.16 23:00:00 - [116] Edited by: Merdaneth on 16/04/2010 23:01:30 Originally by: Omara Otawan Then again, 90% of dramiels flying around are absolutely horrid fits flown by incompetent pilots, so just assuming you wont be able to kill it deprives you of many kills and good loot. Even fairly incompetent Dramiel pilots know enough to overload their AB and get the hell out of there as soon as their shields start to drop. I attacked plenty, and your figure is way too high. 10% of the Dramiels you see are incompently fitted and/pr flown. They don't last long. 90% of the Dramiels you see are flown by pilot decently competent pilots, because they keep on surviving. An incompetent Dramiel lasts only for 30 minutes of PvP, a competent Dramiels for days or weeks of PvP. Originally by: Omara Otawan I see your point though, ceptors are my favourite ships to solo in as well, and it annoyed me quite a bit that my claw had to give up its top dog position in fast frigate dogfight. My solution there is to just not give them kills, its not like I have to engage what I do not want to fight, and there are plenty of targets for me all over the place. I've beaten Claws, I've lost to Claws. In the end, skill and in-combat decisions made the crucial difference. I could beat a Rifter, a Rifter could beat me. I could beat a Thrasher, a Thrasher could beat me. I could even grab the occasional Sabre if I played my cards right. A Dramiel is a large advertisement for the "I'm not willing to risk my ship in PvP" attitude. I dislike engaging people not willing to risk their ship in a fight. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.16 23:17:00 - [117] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/04/2010 23:21:37 Originally by: Merdaneth Even fairly incompetent Dramiel pilots know enough to overload their AB and get the hell out of there as soon as their shields start to drop. That doesnt work against a number of ships though, as mentioned above if they engage AB fit rifter for example they are not disengaging until the target is dead. Again, expecting to win against a pirate frigate or keeping it tackled in your combat ceptor is a bit unrealistic, and all non-broken ones rip your ceptor to shreds, or can disengage. Quote: A Dramiel is a large advertisement for the "I'm not willing to risk my ship in PvP" attitude. I dislike engaging people not willing to risk their ship in a fight. The same is true for interceptors tbh, they have complete freedom to chose their engagements in lowsec, and apart from heavily camped nullsec gates the same applies. Thats actually the reason why I like to fly them, I can pick targets I can be sure to win against, and evade everything else. My K/D ratio in the claw is ridiculously high, and I havent had forced a fight on me in ages.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.04.16 23:35:00 - [118] Originally by: Omara Otawan Wrong, Dramiel without speed mods goes 5059ms, my standard Claw fit goes 5239ms. Doesnt change when overheating either. Yes, and "your" dramiel fit has around 6k ehp. Must be another pr0 fit with 2 overdrives. But im surprised you didnt understand i compared that ships without any speedmods with mwd running. Originally by: Omara Otawan Good luck disengaging from AB frigates with your dualprop dramiel Dram pilot chooses if he engages them or not. Only thing ab frig can do is sit on gate/station and wait for his decision Also you are not restricted to use only mse dualprop fit. But its true, that its most versatile fit for general use /= not only hunting frigs/. Originally by: Omara Otawan The Daredevil can disengage with MWD fit from that btw While dd can disengage from most ab+web frigs /ab+web dramiel will still be faster than mwd fit dd/, you are "disengaging" with a speed of 40-50 m/s - for a ship that sits deep in scram range it isnt enough to gtfo when ** hits the fan. Originally by:** Omara Otawan Both can disengage from bigger targets, but admittedly the Dramiel does that easier. If you think that dd can disengage from a cruiser without ab, then . Gl slowboating at 200m/s from 1k to 9k with ruppie shooting you. Originally by: Omara Otawan None really can take down a competently flown / fitted cruiser Its true about most standard pvp cruisers. But dramiel can at least reliably tackle them, while dd just dies in scram/med neut range or gets torn apart by medium guns outside 13k. Originally by: Omara Otawan Daredevil just does it faster), so thats moot. No, it just dies faster because it has 2500 ehp less, its much slower and neuts shut down its guns.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.16 23:46:00 - [119] Originally by: Omara Otawan Thats actually the reason why I like to fly them, I can pick targets I can be sure to win against, and evade everything else. My K/D ratio in the claw is ridiculously high, and I havent had forced a fight on me in ages. I don't care much about fights I'm sure to win, I'm not playing EvE for a fairly meaningless kill tally score. Sure, I like to win, but I like to win fights I may lose. Originally by: Omara Otawan Or to look at it from the other angle, everytime you engage a t1 frigate with 3 midslots that doesnt clearly have MWD in your dramiel, you risk losing a 100mill frigate to take down a target that is barely worth 4mill. If we are realistic, the target selection for the play-it-safe-all-the-time crowd is pretty limited. People not willing to risk their ship can expect the same from me. Which usually means several hours of EVE play without any fight. Fairly boring if you ask me. The Dramiel increases the number of non-engagements, which is why I consider it a bad ship for gameplay, even though it might be fun for the loss-averse crowd. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.17 00:15:00 - [120] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 But im surprised you didnt understand i compared that ships without any speedmods with mwd running. Oh I understand full well you just made a completely irrelevant blanket statement. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Dram pilot chooses if he engages them or not. Only thing ab frig can do is sit on gate/station and wait for his decision Like pretty much every ceptor pilot does, and the large majority of frigates and AFs. Selecting engagements is a privilege that most frigate fits have, and its not depending on the speed of your vessel. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 While dd can disengage from most ab+web frigs /ab+web dramiel will still be faster than mwd fit dd/, you are "disengaging" with a speed of 40-50 m/s - for a ship that sits deep in scram range it isnt enough to gtfo when ** hits the fan. Agreed, when hits the fan the only thing that saves you is killing the other guy quick enough. Daredevil does that much faster in the first place, and doesnt lose his dps output with its drones dying. Originally by:** Lugalzagezi666 If you think that dd can disengage from a cruiser without ab, then . Gl slowboating at 200m/s from 1k to 9k with ruppie shooting you. It might surprise you, but cruisers fit warp disruptors quite regularly, and disengaging with the ruppies dual neuts on you isnt a trivial task with AB either. Originally by: Omara Otawan But dramiel can at least reliably tackle them, while dd just dies in scram/med neut range or gets torn apart by medium guns outside 13k. You'd be surprised how quick it has to run, reliably tackling is something else Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 No, it just dies faster because it has 2500 ehp less, its much slower and neuts shut down its guns. Nos fixes the cap problems pretty easy thanks to cycle time, you wont be without tackle or guns for more than a second. There is also more than one way to fit a DD, 300+ dps and 6k EHP are not an issue with enough speed that you dont have to worry about being at 13km for more than a split-second.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.17 00:22:00 - [121] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 17/04/2010 03:22:20 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 But im surprised you didnt understand i compared that ships without any speedmods with mwd running. Oh I understand full well you just made a completely irrelevant blanket statement. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Dram pilot chooses if he engages them or not. Only thing ab frig can do is sit on gate/station and wait for his decision Like pretty much every ceptor pilot does, and the large majority of frigates and AFs. Selecting engagements is a privilege that most frigate fits have, and its not depending on the speed of your vessel. Bottom line is, pretty much the only way to make sure something isnt waiting for you to run into a trap is letting it warp off, obviously you arent killing anything that way. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 While dd can disengage from most ab+web frigs /ab+web dramiel will still be faster than mwd fit dd/, you are "disengaging" with a speed of 40-50 m/s - for a ship that sits deep in scram range it isnt enough to gtfo when ** hits the fan. Agreed, when hits the fan the only thing that saves you is killing the other guy quick enough. Daredevil does that much faster in the first place, and doesnt lose his dps output with its drones dying. Originally by:** Lugalzagezi666 If you think that dd can disengage from a cruiser without ab, then . Gl slowboating at 200m/s from 1k to 9k with ruppie shooting you. It might surprise you, but cruisers fit warp disruptors quite regularly (the ones you wanna engage in frigates are fitting them pretty much exclusively), and disengaging with the ruppies dual neuts on you isnt a trivial task with AB either. Originally by: Omara Otawan But dramiel can at least reliably tackle them, while dd just dies in scram/med neut range or gets torn apart by medium guns outside 13k. You'd be surprised how quick it has to run, reliably tackling is something else Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 No, it just dies faster because it has 2500 ehp less, its much slower and neuts shut down its guns. Nos fixes the cap problems pretty easy thanks to cycle time, you wont be without tackle or guns for more than a second. There is also more than one way to fit a DD, 300+ dps and 6k EHP (without the lovely LG slaves) are not an issue with enough speed that you dont have to worry about being at 13km for more than a split-second.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.17 09:25:00 - [122] Originally by: Omara Otawan You do realize regardless what frigate you are in (bar the one counter, the cruor), you are spacedust before you neuted him down, right? I engage any eligible target in my frigates and assume others do as well. Pirate frigates > All without question, issue is everything else .. I have no illusions about combat being restricted within the various classes. Originally by: Omara Otawan With a faction web it actually outpaces everything inside 18km, and thats the only faction mod a good fitting needs. And you manage to scrounge CPU from where exactly? The massively overpriced best named modules like IFFA? Dropping to scram thus rendering long web a luxury only?, like I said, the DD is pretty well balanced on the whole .. you either invest heavily in modules or you sacrifice peak performance. Compared to its Angel sibling which is still superior to almost everything using plain T2/Named there is a world of difference. They need an Achilles heel. Originally by: Omara Otawan Well, first off, crusader being faster than a claw is broken anyway, and secondly there is no reason to get caught because you warp off before he dropped out of warp on your grid, warp off if he comes closer than 70km etc. Claw is faster than the Crusader, but due to limitations in weapon ranges it is better off investing in tank whereas the Crusader can get away with less thus allowing for more speed - tit for tat. Closer than 70km? Just how fail is this theoretical Dramiel pilot you are using that he cant even warp at proper ranges? You actually manage to illuminate the problem quite expertly, only real option for most frigates (-DD/Cruor) and many other ships is to warp out when a Dramiel comes onto OV .. that is a sad truth. Originally by: Omara Otawan I take it you dont solo in ceptors that much? Not any more, CCP saw fit to give me a Super-Coercer (they call it a Slicer for some reason) so that is my weapon of choice at present had loads of fun and deaths in the AB Crusader prior to Dominion (was a disciple of Merdaneth's actually ) Problem is that Interceptors, the only ships with a chance of keeping pace, have to use speed mods to do it thus reducing their already weak tanks to ridiculously low levels compared to the standard non speed mod Dramiel - might as well use harsh language at that point. But we are straying rather far from the original topic which was ECm Bursts so lets see if we can reign it in, eh?
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:06:00 - [123] Originally by: Omara Otawan Oh I understand full well you just made a completely irrelevant blanket statement. Well im not surprised that you are not smart enough to understand it. Originally by: Omara Otawan Well, first off, crusader being faster than a claw is broken anyway And again, dont worry, sader isnt faster than claw. And it definitely isnt faster than "your" claw. Originally by: Omara Otawan Selecting engagements is a privilege that most frigate fits have, and its not depending on the speed of your vessel. Yes, ab fits have it if they are sitting on station or gate. Enjoy your lol ab fits on belts or in plexes. Youd be surprised, but most frig pvp doesnt happen at gates or stations, maybe it has something to do with gateguns... Originally by: Omara Otawan Bottom line is, pretty much the only way to make sure something isnt waiting for you to run into a trap is letting it warp off, obviously you arent killing anything that way. Everything can be trap and catching/killing dd is much easier than catching and killing dram. Originally by: Omara Otawan Agreed, when ** hits the fan the only thing that saves you is killing the other guy quick enough. Daredevil does that much faster in the first place, and doesnt lose his dps output with its drones dying. Only it does lose its dps with its low range and not selectable damage type. And not being able to fire because of neut. Originally by:** Omara Otawan It might surprise you, but cruisers fit warp disruptors quite regularly (the ones you wanna engage in frigates are fitting them pretty much exclusively), and disengaging with the ruppies dual neuts on you isnt a trivial task with AB either. No, cruisers definitely are not fitting disruptor "pretty much exclusively." Ruppies, vexors and thoraxes /id say 3 mostly used cruisers/ are mostly fitting scrams, only shield ruppies fit disruptors most of the time. And difference between dd and dram vs ruppie is, that with some luck dram will be able to hold scram while it will still be able to shoot down ruppies drones. Also dram with overheated ab can mitigate alot of ruppies dps even at 6,5k orbit. Btw disengaging with 1km/s is MUCH easier than disengaging at 200m/s. Originally by: Omara Otawan You'd be surprised how quick it has to run, reliably tackling is something else I wont be surprised, i know perfectly how it works and i also know that dramiel is hands down BEST scram tackler around. Originally by: Omara Otawan Nos fixes the cap problems pretty easy thanks to cycle time, you wont be without tackle or guns for more than a second. If you think that one small nos fixes your cap problems, you have no idea. Only thing it can help you with is holding scram /and web in the case of dd/. Originally by: Omara Otawan There is also more than one way to fit a DD, 300+ dps and 6k EHP (without the lovely LG slaves) are not an issue with enough speed that you dont have to worry about being at 13km for more than a split-second. If you actually had a clue, you would know that the only good dd is rail fit. But ofc you are clueless, so gl dying in scram range with your dd.
Mutnin Amarr Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:29:00 - [124] Edited by: Mutnin on 17/04/2010 12:32:40 Originally by: Morel Nova This new trend of fitting ECM bursts to angel ships is seriously getting out of hand. These modules makes you practically immune to small ships, and have a very high chance of shaking cruiser sized vessels. Yesterday I lost tackle on 2 (two!!) cynabals in my dramiel I would have had no issue killing otherwise. it just doesnt have a viable counter due to their range matching scrambler/orbit range. I suggest reducing strength on ECM bursts with maybe 25% at least and shortening range so a smart pilot has a chance to dodge (like you can against small neuts). I admit I have been flying these myself and gotten out of insane situations with it (scrambled by 3 ceptors burst goodbye) but these ships are already hard to catch (not like the WCS dramiels though wtf) but its getting out of hand now with so many showing up. This is a rather flawed argument IMHO. The ECM burst is not OP. Yes, it's a crappy mod to have to deal with, for us PVPers, much like a warp core stabs are. However it's not OP, it's just working as intended. The thing that is OP is the ship involved. All of the Angel ships are way over powered. Why complain about a mod, when in fact the problem is the ship the mod is fitted to. Personally, I will attack any other Faction Cruiser or Frig with either my Vexor or Myrmidom. Dramiels and Cynabal's I don't even waste my time with them, due to the fact I already know I have no chance in hell to catch them let alone kill them. Hell my drones can't even catch a Dramiel. Flying a Dramiel or Cynabal is already a "get away free" button if the other guys isn't also flying one. Having ECM burst on the Cynabal or a stab on a Dram just seals the deal of making them the ultimate FTM ship.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:40:00 - [125] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 And again, dont worry, sader isnt faster than claw. Its called overheating. Sader a tad faster, and accelerates better. The claw is the minmatar ship btw. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Yes, ab fits have it if they are sitting on station or gate. Enjoy your lol ab fits on belts or in plexes. Youd be surprised, but most frig pvp doesnt happen at gates or stations, maybe it has something to do with gateguns... Plexes are wonderful for AB fits, your MWD frig lands right ontop of them and dies horribly. And where is the issue with belts? Your MWD wont help you anymore catching me than my AB would help me catching you. I just warp off when I dont like your ship, its called a bookmark. And where is the issue with gateguns when you are in faction warfare? Oh right, there is none. Fact is, AB is quite common on frigs and AFs, and since the huge majority of frigate fights happens in scrambler range, are perfectly viable for mopping up the ZOMGalwaysneedMWD morons.
Hatsumi Kobayashi D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.04.19 11:30:00 - [126] Not sure if srs. _____
TheGunslinger42	Posted - 2010.04.19 13:23:00 - [127] use FOTM dualprop dramiel, a frigate that massively out performs even the dedicated interceptor ship class Encounter prey that found a chance based, once-per-30-seconds attempt at a counter Cry on forums because your overpowered FOTM has even an attempt at a counter Lmao, get over it already
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.04.19 21:53:00 - [128] Originally by: Omara Otawan Sader a tad faster (albeit only negligible) 5729 vs 5729. So its 0,1 or 0,2 m/s after overheating? Sry my eft doesnt show. No, all that above actually doesnt matter - even when claw is "minmatar ship" - so its completely broken that its less than 1m/s slower than amarr inty on overheat. You are not going to kite claw with sader from 17k or sth, also both ships are usually fitted very different. Other thing is, that claw is faster without mwd /but that doesnt matter neither because claws and saders dont fit scrams and dont engage in scram range anyway.../. Originally by: Omara Otawan Plexes are wonderful for AB fits, your MWD frig lands right ontop of them and dies horribly. Or my mwd frig sits 20k from warp in, ab frig lands and never gets to point range /no, that cant happen, everyone knows the fit of ship in plex/. Originally by: Omara Otawan And where is the issue with belts? Your MWD wont help you anymore catching me than my AB would help me catching you. I just warp off when I dont like your ship, its called a bookmark. So you are sitting 200k off belt. How do you plan catching mwd frig then. Ah ofc, you dont. You warp at your bm, see frig /hm, what if he isnt mwding, how would you know you dont like it?/, warp out. Originally by: Omara Otawan And where is the issue with gateguns when you are in faction warfare? Oh right, there is none. I understand, there is 0 frig pvp outside faction warfare and ppl not involved in fw dont fly frigs. And we are back at belt bm observations. Originally by: Omara Otawan Fact is, AB is quite common on frigs and AFs, and since the huge majority of frigate fights happens in scrambler range, are perfectly viable for mopping up the ZOMGalwaysneedMWD morons. Id say mwd is perfectly viable for kicking some LOLab tards. But fact is both ab and mwd fits are viable and both are better suited for different conditions and situations. Dualprop allowed some frigs to use "best of both worlds" - with some disadvantages ofc. Originally by: Omara Otawan Not like I have to catch you in the first place, you are fitting your MWD because you are doing it for me From mwd frig it actually looks very different. But ofc for some ppl approach is magic button heh. Originally by: Omara Otawan Before you are putting any more feet in your mouth, maybe check losses from the best frigate pvpers in game, and see what they fit... Ill tell you right away what they fit : 150mm acs, gistii b ab, catalyzed mwd, faint scram, named dc, mapc... Or catalyzed mwd, rails, fn web, 20k point, some mfs, dc... Originally by: Omara Otawan The area I pvp in you literally never see a frigate sitting at 0km anywhere Youd would be surprised then with kamela - auga area. I even met pr0 pvper from self declared fotm corp sitting on gates around kam in "soon to be fotm fitted" /ab+web+scram/ frig enjoying his negative sec to make ppl attack them and when the bastards didnt enter scram range, just jumped. Pretty standard procedure id say. Not only for frig hulls. Not that its bad or sth, only its very limiting imo. Btw sry for spamming into important nerf ecm burst fotm thread, but since some ppl fit ecm burst even to frigs /dram with 2x wcs and cetus burst ftw/ and we are talking about frigs it can be considered relevant /imagine mwd frig screwed badly by evil ab frig - ecm burst and its back at range/. Or not, but i would try to solve that ecm burst issues with nerfing dramiels and cynabals.
Odin'Asgard	Posted - 2010.04.27 16:27:00 - [129] Maybe I should have my own rant thread about this, but I had enough reading 5 pages of whining. All you people who are asking for an Angel ship or any other ship,module or skill nerf are bunch of idiots. Not just one of you, all of you. EvE is a game where you are allowed to do absolutely anything you like. The rules limit people very little, which makes this game so great. You want to suicide in high-sec and destroy bunch of isk? You can. You want to bubble in 0.0 and catch one person with 60 other ships, kill him, his belongings, pod him and wave your kill mail on the internet for your elite pvp status? You can. You want to fly sniper battleships, where you warp in at your optimal out of harm's way, press a button shoot things and leave unscratched? Yes you can. At the same time, you are allowed to fly any ship/module combination you want. All you need to do is train them. It's not like you are caldari, so you are sentenced to pvp in raven's. Nerfing ruins games and almost always does more harm than good. It makes games blant, makes them no-fun. People who cry for nerf's are people who have no patience and want everything (killmails/isk/alliance leadership/recognition) right now. They do not want to be bothered with countering or using other tactics. This is a game where things are specialized, and have their uses for certain things. No matter how good of a driver you are you can't beat and F1 car using any other automobile around a race circuit specially paved for F1 cars. But they wont even be able to go 10mph on a dirt paved road and you can pass them with your bicycle. If you can't solo a dramiel or a cynabal then go get one of those. If you are unhappy that your tempest does not do the optimal damage that the sniper apoc does, then go get the apoc. If you are complaining that you can't afk PVE in minamatar ships like gallante, then go get that. But for god's sake stop asking for nerf's. This sounds like oh lets nerf all the firetrucks because I can't put out a fire in an apartment building in my minivan. So this must mean that firetrucks are overpowered. Make sense, learn to have fun and understand that the nerf stick only makes things worse. If everything is going to be the same, then you have a game with bunch of ships with different ship models that all cost the same, have the same dps, speed and tank and it will come down to who clicked the shoot button first.
Jin Nib Resplendent Knives	Posted - 2010.04.27 22:50:00 - [130] Originally by: Odin'Asgard Maybe I should have my own rant thread about this, but I had enough reading 5 pages of whining. All you people who are asking for an Angel ship or any other ship,module or skill nerf are bunch of idiots. Not just one of you, all of you. EvE is a game where you are allowed to do absolutely anything you like. The rules limit people very little, which makes this game so great. You want to suicide in high-sec and destroy bunch of isk? You can. You want to bubble in 0.0 and catch one person with 60 other ships, kill him, his belongings, pod him and wave your kill mail on the internet for your elite pvp status? You can. You want to fly sniper battleships, where you warp in at your optimal out of harm's way, press a button shoot things and leave unscratched? Yes you can. At the same time, you are allowed to fly any ship/module combination you want. All you need to do is train them. It's not like you are caldari, so you are sentenced to pvp in raven's. Nerfing ruins games and almost always does more harm than good. It makes games blant, makes them no-fun. People who cry for nerf's are people who have no patience and want everything (killmails/isk/alliance leadership/recognition) right now. They do not want to be bothered with countering or using other tactics. This is a game where things are specialized, and have their uses for certain things. No matter how good of a driver you are you can't beat and F1 car using any other automobile around a race circuit specially paved for F1 cars. But they wont even be able to go 10mph on a dirt paved road and you can pass them with your bicycle. If you can't solo a dramiel or a cynabal then go get one of those. If you are unhappy that your tempest does not do the optimal damage that the sniper apoc does, then go get the apoc. If you are complaining that you can't afk PVE in minamatar ships like gallante, then go get that. But for god's sake stop asking for nerf's. This sounds like oh lets nerf all the firetrucks because I can't put out a fire in an apartment building in my minivan. So this must mean that firetrucks are overpowered. Make sense, learn to have fun and understand that the nerf stick only makes things worse. If everything is going to be the same, then you have a game with bunch of ships with different ship models that all cost the same, have the same dps, speed and tank and it will come down to who clicked the shoot button first. Thats why reading forums is bad for you. It's like smoking. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Cypress Cavalero The Darkness Within	Posted - 2010.04.29 03:08:00 - [131] Angel ships are vastly UNDERPOWERED (oh no he didnt!) as are all cruiser hulls compared to what they used to be a couple years ago. The only truly overpowered thing in this game is the forum whiners ability to change the game because they are **** poor at pvp- only to have to complain about something else that people are now doing. Come on guys whats next everyone sit perfectly still and shoot at each other? then there will be threads about nerfing the highest EHP ship, so all ships will have the same EHP speed and weapon configurations and appearnce- true balance. With the follow up whine being "Nerf larger fleets than mine".
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.04.29 11:37:00 - [132] Originally by: Cypress Cavalero so all ships will have the same EHP speed and weapon configurations and appearnce- true balance As opposed to everyone flying same few OP ships at the expense of all the others that end up being used by noobs, morons and to support the "over 9000 types of flyable ships" lines in some feature list for promo purposes. Only thing that I feel bad about when thinking of angel ships is the way CCP will most probably nerf them, in some clumsy exaggerated way that will also end up breaking probing mechanics or create graphical bugs on gallente textures or delete some system files or something along those lines.
Dred Control	Posted - 2010.07.07 00:34:00 - [133] Edited by: Dred Control on 07/07/2010 00:34:36
bluenzo	Posted - 2010.07.07 01:32:00 - [134] Stop flying small ships with a low sensor strength. This has nothing to do with cynical or dramiel or ECM burst. It's balanced. If you nerf ECM burst then I'll will be harder to use it against larger shops. ECM'ing any frigate is normally pretty. Fit eccm and break your speed. There are options you just don't like them.
Jin Nib Resplendent Knives	Posted - 2010.07.07 08:01:00 - [135] BADTHREAD, I CALL YOUR FORTH FROM THE DEAD TO SERVE ME IN UNLIFE AS YOU HAVE IN LIFE! NOW RISE! RIIIIIISSSSSSSSEEEEEEE!!!!
Ghaylenty	Posted - 2010.07.07 08:21:00 - [136] deimos with deluge ECM burst - making kids cry since the 2008 gallente nerf
Ratchman	Posted - 2010.07.07 09:12:00 - [137] Surely this is more of an issue with people adhering to standard fits with the current 'hip ships'. There's often a lot of leverage to be had out of being inventive with ship fits or group tactics, but then people are too afraid of being ridiculed for not obeying the standard rules, so they stick to something like glue. Hence when something doesn't work, its the fault of the game. The Dramiel obviously doesn't work in this situation, so find an alternative. It's akin to the warp core stabilisers that so many people fit to their ships in lowsec (despite protestatons that they don't). It's a valid tactic to get out of trouble, but it gimps you so badly on the targetting range as so to make the ship useless at anything other than point-blank range. ECM Bursts are quite potent, but they also carry their own caveat.

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