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Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2004.12.03 15:38:00 - [61] Well, VERY interesting stuff I have to say (again). I think that the agents still droppin comps (at the curent amounts)is a temporary solution CCP devised (wisely if it is true) to avoid the price panic that would engulf the first month of shiva. If agents suddenly went dry, you could easily expect comps to be sold >100k per irrespectively of the item. I'd guess that steadily the agents will give less and less comps untill the stop, or give some bare low. ...if my assumption is right.
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2004.12.03 15:38:00 - [62] Well, VERY interesting stuff I have to say (again). I think that the agents still droppin comps (at the curent amounts)is a temporary solution CCP devised (wisely if it is true) to avoid the price panic that would engulf the first month of shiva. If agents suddenly went dry, you could easily expect comps to be sold >100k per irrespectively of the item. I'd guess that steadily the agents will give less and less comps untill the stop, or give some bare low. ...if my assumption is right.
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.03 16:11:00 - [63] Originally by: Feta Solamnia Well, VERY interesting stuff I have to say (again). I think that the agents still droppin comps (at the curent amounts)is a temporary solution CCP devised (wisely if it is true) to avoid the price panic that would engulf the first month of shiva. If agents suddenly went dry, you could easily expect comps to be sold >100k per irrespectively of the item. I'd guess that steadily the agents will give less and less comps untill the stop, or give some bare low. ...if my assumption is right. Maybe would been better if agents started give out advanced materials in stead of full components ;-) Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.03 16:11:00 - [64] Originally by: Feta Solamnia Well, VERY interesting stuff I have to say (again). I think that the agents still droppin comps (at the curent amounts)is a temporary solution CCP devised (wisely if it is true) to avoid the price panic that would engulf the first month of shiva. If agents suddenly went dry, you could easily expect comps to be sold >100k per irrespectively of the item. I'd guess that steadily the agents will give less and less comps untill the stop, or give some bare low. ...if my assumption is right. Maybe would been better if agents started give out advanced materials in stead of full components ;-) Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Anderi Bourdieu	Posted - 2004.12.03 21:56:00 - [65] Edited by: Anderi Bourdieu on 03/12/2004 22:00:11 Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: Feta Solamnia Well, VERY interesting stuff I have to say (again). I think that the agents still droppin comps (at the curent amounts)is a temporary solution CCP devised (wisely if it is true) to avoid the price panic that would engulf the first month of shiva. If agents suddenly went dry, you could easily expect comps to be sold >100k per irrespectively of the item. I'd guess that steadily the agents will give less and less comps untill the stop, or give some bare low. ...if my assumption is right. Maybe would been better if agents started give out advanced materials in stead of full components ;-) That's what the person who bought my Advanced Materials asked me. He wanted to know where I got them. Where? From recycled components. And you know what? I made more than the cost of the recycled components themselves. But anyway, that is actually an excellent idea Ruffio. Maybe better yet, agents can give Raw or Processed Materials as bonuses. ----------------------------------------------- 11/17/04 Are Formal Contracts in yet? Divisional Wallets? Taxes? BP lockdown?
Anderi Bourdieu	Posted - 2004.12.03 21:56:00 - [66] Edited by: Anderi Bourdieu on 03/12/2004 22:00:11 Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: Feta Solamnia Well, VERY interesting stuff I have to say (again). I think that the agents still droppin comps (at the curent amounts)is a temporary solution CCP devised (wisely if it is true) to avoid the price panic that would engulf the first month of shiva. If agents suddenly went dry, you could easily expect comps to be sold >100k per irrespectively of the item. I'd guess that steadily the agents will give less and less comps untill the stop, or give some bare low. ...if my assumption is right. Maybe would been better if agents started give out advanced materials in stead of full components ;-) That's what the person who bought my Advanced Materials asked me. He wanted to know where I got them. Where? From recycled components. And you know what? I made more than the cost of the recycled components themselves. But anyway, that is actually an excellent idea Ruffio. Maybe better yet, agents can give Raw or Processed Materials as bonuses. ----------------------------------------------- 11/17/04 Are Formal Contracts in yet? Divisional Wallets? Taxes? BP lockdown?
Synex	Posted - 2004.12.03 22:46:00 - [67] What kind of crazy stuff was the POS-dev smoking when he came up with NPC prices for moon materials? Take for example the ordinary case scenario - you find and abundance 3 moon of the most expensive stuff. You get 300 units / hour and sell for NPC Price of 256. Selling those would net you 12Mil / week. But if you were mining atmospheric gases? How much would you make? 100,000 Isk / week. Let me repeat that... 100,000 Isk / week. So you set up this amazing POS, mine a friggin moon. And you get the same as you would mining scordite for 2 mins. In. A. Week. If these were the prices the devs were working from when they balanced the whole load, i'm really not surprised its all out of whack.
Synex	Posted - 2004.12.03 22:46:00 - [68] What kind of crazy stuff was the POS-dev smoking when he came up with NPC prices for moon materials? Take for example the ordinary case scenario - you find and abundance 3 moon of the most expensive stuff. You get 300 units / hour and sell for NPC Price of 256. Selling those would net you 12Mil / week. But if you were mining atmospheric gases? How much would you make? 100,000 Isk / week. Let me repeat that... 100,000 Isk / week. So you set up this amazing POS, mine a friggin moon. And you get the same as you would mining scordite for 2 mins. In. A. Week. If these were the prices the devs were working from when they balanced the whole load, i'm really not surprised its all out of whack.
Anderi Bourdieu	Posted - 2004.12.04 15:15:00 - [69] Originally by: Synex What kind of crazy stuff was the POS-dev smoking when he came up with NPC prices for moon materials? Take for example the ordinary case scenario - you find and abundance 3 moon of the most expensive stuff. You get 300 units / hour and sell for NPC Price of 256. Selling those would net you 12Mil / week. But if you were mining atmospheric gases? How much would you make? 100,000 Isk / week. Let me repeat that... 100,000 Isk / week. So you set up this amazing POS, mine a friggin moon. And you get the same as you would mining scordite for 2 mins. In. A. Week. If these were the prices the devs were working from when they balanced the whole load, i'm really not surprised its all out of whack. Unfortunately you won't be making 12Mil/wk....you'll be making -60Mil/wk if you sold at those prices... ----------------------------------------------- 11/17/04 Are Formal Contracts in yet? Divisional Wallets? Taxes? BP lockdown?
Anderi Bourdieu	Posted - 2004.12.04 15:15:00 - [70] Originally by: Synex What kind of crazy stuff was the POS-dev smoking when he came up with NPC prices for moon materials? Take for example the ordinary case scenario - you find and abundance 3 moon of the most expensive stuff. You get 300 units / hour and sell for NPC Price of 256. Selling those would net you 12Mil / week. But if you were mining atmospheric gases? How much would you make? 100,000 Isk / week. Let me repeat that... 100,000 Isk / week. So you set up this amazing POS, mine a friggin moon. And you get the same as you would mining scordite for 2 mins. In. A. Week. If these were the prices the devs were working from when they balanced the whole load, i'm really not surprised its all out of whack. Unfortunately you won't be making 12Mil/wk....you'll be making -60Mil/wk if you sold at those prices... ----------------------------------------------- 11/17/04 Are Formal Contracts in yet? Divisional Wallets? Taxes? BP lockdown?
D'ni	Posted - 2004.12.04 19:22:00 - [71] Right, I know this is a horrible mess what with the notation I used, but here's the chain of what's needed to build an Ishtar. (I build them myself and my BP is currently at ME1) After I worked out this mess I was able to determine that Assuming that all the moons with appropriate raw materials were within a 2-3 jump radius and you had a team of people available to maintain the POS (needs to be switched to mining the correct materials and producing the correct reactions) 4 POSs would be needed to keep up with the current production rate of 1 Ishtar every 35h (PE0). Ishtar: 330 P0=> 13200 C0 + 9900 C7 165 P1=> 1320 C0 + 165 C1 + 165 C2 110 P2=> 1320 C0 + 110 C2 + 330 C6 275 P3=> 5500 C0 + 550 C4 + 275 C5 165 P4=> 3960 C0 + 2475 C3 + 165 C5 165 P5=> 1980 C0 + 825 C5 + 165 C6 330 P6=> 6600 C0 + 330 C2 + 2640 C7 # CR Units => 33880 C0 + 165 C1 + 605 C2 + 2475 C3 + 550 C4 + 1265 C5 + 495 C6 + 12540 C7 # CR Batches => 23 C0 + 2 C1 + 3 C2 + 3 C3 + 2 C4 + 2 C5 + 1 C6 + 10 C7 # SR Units => 300 S0 + 2600 S1 + 1000 S2 + 2300 S3 + 400 S4 + 300 S5 + 200 S6 + 1300 S7 + 300 S8 + 200 S9 + 500 SA + 500 SB + 100 SC + 200 SD + 200 SE + 300 SF T2 Parts: P0) !Carbonite Armor Plate ME8=> 40 C0 + 30 C7 P1) Fusion Reactor Unit ME1 PE5=> 8 C0 + 1 C1 + 1 C2 P2) Ion Thruster Blueprint ME2 PE5=> 12 C0 + 1 C2 + 3 C6 P3) Magnetometric Sensor Cluster ME4 PE5=> 20 C0 + 2 C4 + 1 C5 P4) !Oscillator Capacitor Unit ME4=> 24 C0 + 15 C3 + 1 C5 P5) !Photon Microprocessor ME2=> 12 C0 + 5 C5 + 1 C6 P6) !Pulse Shield Emitter ME4=> 20 C0 + 1 C2 + 8 C7 Complex Reaction (Advanced Materials): C0) 1500 Crystalline Carbonite=> 100 S3 + 100 S1 C1) 100 Fermonic Condensates=> 100 S0 + 100 S4 + 100 S6 + 100 SB C2) 300 Ferrogel=> 100 S7 + 100 S8 + 100 S5 + 100 SB C3) 1100 Fullerides=> 100 S1 + 100 SA C4) 500 Hypersynaptic Fibers=> 100 SD + 100 S4 + 100 SF C5) 700 Nanotransistors=> 100 SE + 100 SA + 100 S9 C6) 900 Phenolic Composites=> 100 SC + 100 S0 + 100 SF C7) 1300 Sylramic Fibers=> 100 S2 + 100 S7 Simple Reactions (Processed Materials): S0) 200 Caesarium Cadmide=> 100 R1 + 100 R2 S1) 200 Carbon Polymers=> 100 R8 + 100 RD S2) 200 Ceramic Powder=> 100 R6 + 100 RD S3) 200 Crystallite Alloy=> 100 R4 + 100 R1 S4) 200 Dysporite=> 100 R9 + 100 R5 S5) 200 Ferrofluid=> 100 R7 + 100 R5 S6) 200 Fluxed Condensates=> 100 RA + 100 RF S7) 200 Hexite=> 100 R3 + 100 RB S8) 200 Hyperflurite=> 100 RG + 100 RC S9) 200 Neo Mercurite=> 100 R9 + 100 RA SA) 200 Platinum Technite=> 100 RB + 100 RE SB) 200 Prometium=> 100 R1 + 100 RC SC) 200 Silicon Diborite=> 100 R6 + 100 RD SD) 200 Solerium=> 100 R3 + 100 R2 SE) 200 Sulfuric Acid=> 100 R0 + 100 R6 SF) 200 Vanadium Hafnite=> 100 RG + 100 R7 Raw Materials (From Moon Mining): R0) Atmospheric Gases R1) Cadmium R2) Caesium R3) Chromium R4) Cobalt R5) Dysprosium R6) Evaporite Deposits R7) Hafnium R8) Hydrocarbons R9) Mercury RA) Neodymium RB) Platinum RC) Promethium RD) Silicates RE) Technetium RF) Thulium RG) Vanadium Anyways, the final conclusion of my calculations is that there's no way you'd be able to get fuel cheap enough as at sufficiently low prices the miners would make way more per hour by strip mining veld or scord. I'm hoping that someone will please prove me wrong... ---------------------------------------------- D'ni Specialist Research Scientists / Industrialist
D'ni	Posted - 2004.12.04 19:22:00 - [72] Right, I know this is a horrible mess what with the notation I used, but here's the chain of what's needed to build an Ishtar. (I build them myself and my BP is currently at ME1) After I worked out this mess I was able to determine that Assuming that all the moons with appropriate raw materials were within a 2-3 jump radius and you had a team of people available to maintain the POS (needs to be switched to mining the correct materials and producing the correct reactions) 4 POSs would be needed to keep up with the current production rate of 1 Ishtar every 35h (PE0). Ishtar: 330 P0=> 13200 C0 + 9900 C7 165 P1=> 1320 C0 + 165 C1 + 165 C2 110 P2=> 1320 C0 + 110 C2 + 330 C6 275 P3=> 5500 C0 + 550 C4 + 275 C5 165 P4=> 3960 C0 + 2475 C3 + 165 C5 165 P5=> 1980 C0 + 825 C5 + 165 C6 330 P6=> 6600 C0 + 330 C2 + 2640 C7 # CR Units => 33880 C0 + 165 C1 + 605 C2 + 2475 C3 + 550 C4 + 1265 C5 + 495 C6 + 12540 C7 # CR Batches => 23 C0 + 2 C1 + 3 C2 + 3 C3 + 2 C4 + 2 C5 + 1 C6 + 10 C7 # SR Units => 300 S0 + 2600 S1 + 1000 S2 + 2300 S3 + 400 S4 + 300 S5 + 200 S6 + 1300 S7 + 300 S8 + 200 S9 + 500 SA + 500 SB + 100 SC + 200 SD + 200 SE + 300 SF T2 Parts: P0) !Carbonite Armor Plate ME8=> 40 C0 + 30 C7 P1) Fusion Reactor Unit ME1 PE5=> 8 C0 + 1 C1 + 1 C2 P2) Ion Thruster Blueprint ME2 PE5=> 12 C0 + 1 C2 + 3 C6 P3) Magnetometric Sensor Cluster ME4 PE5=> 20 C0 + 2 C4 + 1 C5 P4) !Oscillator Capacitor Unit ME4=> 24 C0 + 15 C3 + 1 C5 P5) !Photon Microprocessor ME2=> 12 C0 + 5 C5 + 1 C6 P6) !Pulse Shield Emitter ME4=> 20 C0 + 1 C2 + 8 C7 Complex Reaction (Advanced Materials): C0) 1500 Crystalline Carbonite=> 100 S3 + 100 S1 C1) 100 Fermonic Condensates=> 100 S0 + 100 S4 + 100 S6 + 100 SB C2) 300 Ferrogel=> 100 S7 + 100 S8 + 100 S5 + 100 SB C3) 1100 Fullerides=> 100 S1 + 100 SA C4) 500 Hypersynaptic Fibers=> 100 SD + 100 S4 + 100 SF C5) 700 Nanotransistors=> 100 SE + 100 SA + 100 S9 C6) 900 Phenolic Composites=> 100 SC + 100 S0 + 100 SF C7) 1300 Sylramic Fibers=> 100 S2 + 100 S7 Simple Reactions (Processed Materials): S0) 200 Caesarium Cadmide=> 100 R1 + 100 R2 S1) 200 Carbon Polymers=> 100 R8 + 100 RD S2) 200 Ceramic Powder=> 100 R6 + 100 RD S3) 200 Crystallite Alloy=> 100 R4 + 100 R1 S4) 200 Dysporite=> 100 R9 + 100 R5 S5) 200 Ferrofluid=> 100 R7 + 100 R5 S6) 200 Fluxed Condensates=> 100 RA + 100 RF S7) 200 Hexite=> 100 R3 + 100 RB S8) 200 Hyperflurite=> 100 RG + 100 RC S9) 200 Neo Mercurite=> 100 R9 + 100 RA SA) 200 Platinum Technite=> 100 RB + 100 RE SB) 200 Prometium=> 100 R1 + 100 RC SC) 200 Silicon Diborite=> 100 R6 + 100 RD SD) 200 Solerium=> 100 R3 + 100 R2 SE) 200 Sulfuric Acid=> 100 R0 + 100 R6 SF) 200 Vanadium Hafnite=> 100 RG + 100 R7 Raw Materials (From Moon Mining): R0) Atmospheric Gases R1) Cadmium R2) Caesium R3) Chromium R4) Cobalt R5) Dysprosium R6) Evaporite Deposits R7) Hafnium R8) Hydrocarbons R9) Mercury RA) Neodymium RB) Platinum RC) Promethium RD) Silicates RE) Technetium RF) Thulium RG) Vanadium Anyways, the final conclusion of my calculations is that there's no way you'd be able to get fuel cheap enough as at sufficiently low prices the miners would make way more per hour by strip mining veld or scord. I'm hoping that someone will please prove me wrong... ---------------------------------------------- D'ni Specialist Research Scientists / Industrialist
Sokra	Posted - 2004.12.04 19:44:00 - [73] actually I didn¦t want to post here again, but read this Post , it wasn¦t intended to make all Tech 2 Components cheaper as they currently are.
Sokra	Posted - 2004.12.04 19:44:00 - [74] actually I didn¦t want to post here again, but read this Post , it wasn¦t intended to make all Tech 2 Components cheaper as they currently are.
Mistress D'Malice	Posted - 2004.12.05 01:49:00 - [75] Sokra...GREAT WORK here!!! I am glad to see someone that loves to crunch numbers the way I do... But one question, why do most people seem to be basing there figures off of current NPC prices rather then doing a breakdown of Tech 2 Components using current market prices? My numbers seem to indicate there is a good deal of profit to be made after the ititial expediture and assuming you can keep POS operational expenses under control. Why do most people even LOOK at the NPC prices for the new ores and ice products, they are directly related to what the PC market will pay for an item...its not the other way around. Black Lotus Official Forums - www.blacklotusclan.com Contact Me - [email protected]
Mistress D'Malice	Posted - 2004.12.05 01:49:00 - [76] Sokra...GREAT WORK here!!! I am glad to see someone that loves to crunch numbers the way I do... But one question, why do most people seem to be basing there figures off of current NPC prices rather then doing a breakdown of Tech 2 Components using current market prices? My numbers seem to indicate there is a good deal of profit to be made after the ititial expediture and assuming you can keep POS operational expenses under control. Why do most people even LOOK at the NPC prices for the new ores and ice products, they are directly related to what the PC market will pay for an item...its not the other way around. Black Lotus Official Forums - www.blacklotusclan.com Contact Me - [email protected]
Sokra	Posted - 2004.12.05 08:24:00 - [77] yep, somehow CCP set the NPC price for those ice minerals at 1k/unit and further set a price to each raw material which I tried to figure out, how CCP came to those numbers. Because you have an operatioal cost of the POS and you need to cover it with the benefits of having it. After it was stated by Redundancy that Moon mining wasn¦t intended to fully cover the costs of the fuel, my thread is not up to date. The problem I see is that everybody will go after those products which are overpriced on the market and money can be made atm. Therefor those prices like Reactor Units will drop, ships will get alot cheaper, production will go up as more people will buy em, but then you will see that there will be a shortage of those cheap parts, which will get rare and expensive and making the ships expensive again. That¦s why I suggested a network which produces all of the needed component in a way no shortage would come up, but in turn less profit would be made. Do not forget that Agent runners get an amount of Tech 2 Components based on those NPC prices. Further it should have been a market without any involvement of CCP and the NPC¦s regarding the prices of fuel and costs of the materials produced, but all ice-miners will always compare the profits made by ice-mining and low ore mining in high sec space, why should I mine something I would make less profit with. Therefor those prices will never be made by the POS-Users, they are binded to the current mineral prices of Tritanium and Pyerite. (Inflated NPC prices)
Sokra	Posted - 2004.12.05 08:24:00 - [78] yep, somehow CCP set the NPC price for those ice minerals at 1k/unit and further set a price to each raw material which I tried to figure out, how CCP came to those numbers. Because you have an operatioal cost of the POS and you need to cover it with the benefits of having it. After it was stated by Redundancy that Moon mining wasn¦t intended to fully cover the costs of the fuel, my thread is not up to date. The problem I see is that everybody will go after those products which are overpriced on the market and money can be made atm. Therefor those prices like Reactor Units will drop, ships will get alot cheaper, production will go up as more people will buy em, but then you will see that there will be a shortage of those cheap parts, which will get rare and expensive and making the ships expensive again. That¦s why I suggested a network which produces all of the needed component in a way no shortage would come up, but in turn less profit would be made. Do not forget that Agent runners get an amount of Tech 2 Components based on those NPC prices. Further it should have been a market without any involvement of CCP and the NPC¦s regarding the prices of fuel and costs of the materials produced, but all ice-miners will always compare the profits made by ice-mining and low ore mining in high sec space, why should I mine something I would make less profit with. Therefor those prices will never be made by the POS-Users, they are binded to the current mineral prices of Tritanium and Pyerite. (Inflated NPC prices)
Karazaan	Posted - 2004.12.05 15:59:00 - [79] Originally by: Tharrn Quote: This is false, agent runner get a supply which is tighly controlled by CCP, and what the heck if they can get 400 of each type each day, as more tech 2 bpo are released thru lottery, a huge drain is created in the market so many components selling for 3k are now close to 20k and still rising. Imagine a tech 2 bs ? ISK........ But I have one question to illustrate the point, if I buy a Claw at 7 mil and go sell it in Yulai for 2 mil, will I control the market and fix the price at 2 mil ? No, simply because the real supply is not me, it's all thoses building Claws. So it's the same thing here, agents runner can get so many components, but it's really NOTHING compare the whole universe tech 2 need... Which POS will soon fill in nicely. BEWARE! BUMPS AHEAD!!! At what cost if you want to sustain the POS with it monetary? Will it be tenfold higher than the current prices? A hundredfold higher? The ship and tech2 module prices would rise accordingly. An Inty for 80 million? Way to go... It's hard to say, it will depend on how many people go for that new market. If a lot less people would have found mining in empire the best way to make isk, there would not been trit below 1 isk value, so we would'nt had decimal price value, like 0.76 trit isk trit for sales. So it will depend on how many people step in to do that, but if there is almost nobody, you can expect Inty for 80 mil, heavy assault for 160 mil etc... BUT HUGE profit for thoses that will dare to do it, so theses huge profit will attract more people willing to take the risk. Also, don't forget that theses CT are the basic level 1, the first. Maybe the following one (bigger size or just tech 2) will allow more power, more shield radius and thus more reactor. So they will probably more profitable too.
Karazaan	Posted - 2004.12.05 15:59:00 - [80] Originally by: Tharrn Quote: This is false, agent runner get a supply which is tighly controlled by CCP, and what the heck if they can get 400 of each type each day, as more tech 2 bpo are released thru lottery, a huge drain is created in the market so many components selling for 3k are now close to 20k and still rising. Imagine a tech 2 bs ? ISK........ But I have one question to illustrate the point, if I buy a Claw at 7 mil and go sell it in Yulai for 2 mil, will I control the market and fix the price at 2 mil ? No, simply because the real supply is not me, it's all thoses building Claws. So it's the same thing here, agents runner can get so many components, but it's really NOTHING compare the whole universe tech 2 need... Which POS will soon fill in nicely. BEWARE! BUMPS AHEAD!!! At what cost if you want to sustain the POS with it monetary? Will it be tenfold higher than the current prices? A hundredfold higher? The ship and tech2 module prices would rise accordingly. An Inty for 80 million? Way to go... It's hard to say, it will depend on how many people go for that new market. If a lot less people would have found mining in empire the best way to make isk, there would not been trit below 1 isk value, so we would'nt had decimal price value, like 0.76 trit isk trit for sales. So it will depend on how many people step in to do that, but if there is almost nobody, you can expect Inty for 80 mil, heavy assault for 160 mil etc... BUT HUGE profit for thoses that will dare to do it, so theses huge profit will attract more people willing to take the risk. Also, don't forget that theses CT are the basic level 1, the first. Maybe the following one (bigger size or just tech 2) will allow more power, more shield radius and thus more reactor. So they will probably more profitable too.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.12.06 15:30:00 - [81] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 06/12/2004 15:33:13 The fuel requirements for CTs when it comes to Ice are way too high IMHO. How in the name of god is a normally sized corp supposed to fuel a POS? It takes 3 people mining 7 to 12 hours a week each in their large barges just to fuel the damn complex and then you still haven't made a single ISK profit. That's 40 to 60 minutes of mining PER DAY for 3 peeps. I'm TIRED of having to mine my ass off just to have the OPTION to MAYBE have some fun in the end and MAYBE earn some isk doing so. Crank down the damn fuel reqs on those CTs or you will never see them built in sufficient masses. And for the love of god keep in mind that not every player in this game happens to be part of a megacorp. Mai's Idealog
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.12.06 15:30:00 - [82] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 06/12/2004 15:33:13 The fuel requirements for CTs when it comes to Ice are way too high IMHO. How in the name of god is a normally sized corp supposed to fuel a POS? It takes 3 people mining 7 to 12 hours a week each in their large barges just to fuel the damn complex and then you still haven't made a single ISK profit. That's 40 to 60 minutes of mining PER DAY for 3 peeps. I'm TIRED of having to mine my ass off just to have the OPTION to MAYBE have some fun in the end and MAYBE earn some isk doing so. Crank down the damn fuel reqs on those CTs or you will never see them built in sufficient masses. And for the love of god keep in mind that not every player in this game happens to be part of a megacorp. Mai's Idealog
Mistress D'Malice	Posted - 2004.12.06 16:14:00 - [83] Every corporation in Eve can run there own POS effectively. It depends on 3 things as I see it: 1. Location - Finding a moon that you can mine at least 200-300 units per hour and is close to an ice field. 2. Player created market - No one will mine moon if no one is buying the product. This market is entirely player based so people need to start buying it before people start mining it. 3. Teamwork - Even a very small corporation can run a POS with a 15-25M per day profit assuming the player market picks up. Even small groups of solo players can get together and form trade networks to get things done. I am testing my theory now as I think I have the first WTB for ores in the game. Black Lotus Official Forums - www.blacklotusclan.com Contact Me - [email protected]
Mistress D'Malice	Posted - 2004.12.06 16:14:00 - [84] Every corporation in Eve can run there own POS effectively. It depends on 3 things as I see it: 1. Location - Finding a moon that you can mine at least 200-300 units per hour and is close to an ice field. 2. Player created market - No one will mine moon if no one is buying the product. This market is entirely player based so people need to start buying it before people start mining it. 3. Teamwork - Even a very small corporation can run a POS with a 15-25M per day profit assuming the player market picks up. Even small groups of solo players can get together and form trade networks to get things done. I am testing my theory now as I think I have the first WTB for ores in the game. Black Lotus Official Forums - www.blacklotusclan.com Contact Me - [email protected]
Therian	Posted - 2004.12.06 19:43:00 - [85] Mistress: 1) Easy, but you need a significant amount of moon minerals to do anything. Like 6 different ones, total. This either means move the POS every now and then, or different people have different POS. Also, you do know it costs 70mil per week to run the thing? 2) People won't buy until the price is ok to make a profit. 3) 15-25M day is unrealistic. If you have numbers, I want to see them. ________________________________ Therian Dreamscape Chief Financial Officer Director of Manufacturing and Sales
Therian	Posted - 2004.12.06 19:43:00 - [86] Mistress: 1) Easy, but you need a significant amount of moon minerals to do anything. Like 6 different ones, total. This either means move the POS every now and then, or different people have different POS. Also, you do know it costs 70mil per week to run the thing? 2) People won't buy until the price is ok to make a profit. 3) 15-25M day is unrealistic. If you have numbers, I want to see them. ________________________________ Therian Dreamscape Chief Financial Officer Director of Manufacturing and Sales
Lygos	Posted - 2004.12.06 20:19:00 - [87] Ignoring the numbers for a second, what does all this mean in terms of manhours on acquiring tech 2 products? Pretend all of EVE is in a single faction not really bothering to buy and sell from itself except in terms of hours. Is this an automated process with cumulative returns per hour.. or is it a process that is constantly getting less and less efficient with each manhour's worth of refined ice getting pumped into the system? Are we pumping out more inties materials per hour at maximum models of efficiency, or less and less? The isk numbers will bounce around with little long term relevance one way or the other. Also, if the aggregate volume of finished goods outputted by agents is relatively tiny, their market position will be weak. You have to take into account that this is an otherwise delightfully passive system, which will either free more and more hours up or require more and more and more. Both of those of course are eventually limited by the eve community's ability to destroy those products, which is a lengthy, time consuming process in itself.
Lygos	Posted - 2004.12.06 20:19:00 - [88] Ignoring the numbers for a second, what does all this mean in terms of manhours on acquiring tech 2 products? Pretend all of EVE is in a single faction not really bothering to buy and sell from itself except in terms of hours. Is this an automated process with cumulative returns per hour.. or is it a process that is constantly getting less and less efficient with each manhour's worth of refined ice getting pumped into the system? Are we pumping out more inties materials per hour at maximum models of efficiency, or less and less? The isk numbers will bounce around with little long term relevance one way or the other. Also, if the aggregate volume of finished goods outputted by agents is relatively tiny, their market position will be weak. You have to take into account that this is an otherwise delightfully passive system, which will either free more and more hours up or require more and more and more. Both of those of course are eventually limited by the eve community's ability to destroy those products, which is a lengthy, time consuming process in itself.
Shifar	Posted - 2004.12.06 23:00:00 - [89] A very interesting read, it's made me realise POS are out of my league compleatly. If the costs out weigh the gains then will there ever be the Exodus that the patch name suggests?. I've not seen the demand for moon products or tech 2 components or anything else Starbase ownership can privide that can justify the huge expense in isk and the number of man hours reguired to start one up. Add in the risk of looksing it all to pirates and it adds more weight to the argument against Starbase ownership.
Shifar	Posted - 2004.12.06 23:00:00 - [90] A very interesting read, it's made me realise POS are out of my league compleatly. If the costs out weigh the gains then will there ever be the Exodus that the patch name suggests?. I've not seen the demand for moon products or tech 2 components or anything else Starbase ownership can privide that can justify the huge expense in isk and the number of man hours reguired to start one up. Add in the risk of looksing it all to pirates and it adds more weight to the argument against Starbase ownership.

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