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Dathias	Posted - 2004.12.28 09:19:00 - [181] They (CCP) dont want POS for everyone. They want high operating costs and good supply organization. But structures PG and CPU req. are BAD and need adjusting.
Dathias	Posted - 2004.12.28 09:19:00 - [182] They (CCP) dont want POS for everyone. They want high operating costs and good supply organization. But structures PG and CPU req. are BAD and need adjusting.
Malakai	Posted - 2004.12.30 13:46:00 - [183] Edited by: Malakai on 30/12/2004 13:59:50 Hang on so your using 8 POS mining 8 materials why? With 8 POS you could be mining 16 materials and selling the excess and still do the reactions you need. Also your calculations on POS running costs are overly high 150k for Racial ice is more than enough. Which drops your operating costs on each POS by at least 1 mil ea a day. Also your calculations are at Full power and CPU usage, again no station runs at this kind of usage which exagerates the daily cost. Altho tbh armour plate is the worst possible component you could be making due to its low value Your calculations should inc POS running costs of - 1-1.5 mil a day and the extra Materials that can be mined each day.
Malakai	Posted - 2004.12.30 13:46:00 - [184] Edited by: Malakai on 30/12/2004 13:59:50 Hang on so your using 8 POS mining 8 materials why? With 8 POS you could be mining 16 materials and selling the excess and still do the reactions you need. Also your calculations on POS running costs are overly high 150k for Racial ice is more than enough. Which drops your operating costs on each POS by at least 1 mil ea a day. Also your calculations are at Full power and CPU usage, again no station runs at this kind of usage which exagerates the daily cost. Altho tbh armour plate is the worst possible component you could be making due to its low value Your calculations should inc POS running costs of - 1-1.5 mil a day and the extra Materials that can be mined each day.
Shintai	Posted - 2004.12.30 15:12:00 - [185] Edited by: Shintai on 30/12/2004 15:15:04 Originally by: Malakai Edited by: Malakai on 30/12/2004 13:59:50 Hang on so your using 8 POS mining 8 materials why? With 8 POS you could be mining 16 materials and selling the excess and still do the reactions you need. Also your calculations on POS running costs are overly high 150k for Racial ice is more than enough. Which drops your operating costs on each POS by at least 1 mil ea a day. Also your calculations are at Full power and CPU usage, again no station runs at this kind of usage which exagerates the daily cost. Altho tbh armour plate is the worst possible component you could be making due to its low value Your calculations should inc POS running costs of - 1-1.5 mil a day and the extra Materials that can be mined each day. With 8 POS mining 16 materials, who makes complex reactions? I can show you huge loses aswell on shield emitters if you like. And if you want to make a 2 material reaction and mine 2 materials you need 7250 CPU. Means caldari only and with looses due to no coupling arrays. Are your POS undefended? No hangers etc? Do you babysit the POS for free? Do you haul around with materials for free? Is everyone going to make reactors as the only thing to have their POS on the black numbers? Do you even have a POS yourself? Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Shintai	Posted - 2004.12.30 15:12:00 - [186] Edited by: Shintai on 30/12/2004 15:15:04 Originally by: Malakai Edited by: Malakai on 30/12/2004 13:59:50 Hang on so your using 8 POS mining 8 materials why? With 8 POS you could be mining 16 materials and selling the excess and still do the reactions you need. Also your calculations on POS running costs are overly high 150k for Racial ice is more than enough. Which drops your operating costs on each POS by at least 1 mil ea a day. Also your calculations are at Full power and CPU usage, again no station runs at this kind of usage which exagerates the daily cost. Altho tbh armour plate is the worst possible component you could be making due to its low value Your calculations should inc POS running costs of - 1-1.5 mil a day and the extra Materials that can be mined each day. With 8 POS mining 16 materials, who makes complex reactions? I can show you huge loses aswell on shield emitters if you like. And if you want to make a 2 material reaction and mine 2 materials you need 7250 CPU. Means caldari only and with looses due to no coupling arrays. Are your POS undefended? No hangers etc? Do you babysit the POS for free? Do you haul around with materials for free? Is everyone going to make reactors as the only thing to have their POS on the black numbers? Do you even have a POS yourself? Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Malakai	Posted - 2004.12.30 17:14:00 - [187] Edited by: Malakai on 30/12/2004 17:16:41 Yes my corp runs POS at a profit, all well defended and easily manageable, all those involved are paid well. Not everything will be profitable like any in industry, so pick the ones that are, when there is a glut there will be a lack of different materials, then you switch.
Malakai	Posted - 2004.12.30 17:14:00 - [188] Edited by: Malakai on 30/12/2004 17:16:41 Yes my corp runs POS at a profit, all well defended and easily manageable, all those involved are paid well. Not everything will be profitable like any in industry, so pick the ones that are, when there is a glut there will be a lack of different materials, then you switch.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.30 18:31:00 - [189] Originally by: Malakai Edited by: Malakai on 30/12/2004 17:16:41 Yes my corp runs POS at a profit, all well defended and easily manageable, all those involved are paid well. Not everything will be profitable like any in industry, so pick the ones that are, when there is a glut there will be a lack of different materials, then you switch. even if you take say a tech II part thats 10k (most are between 6k to 10k) and say 40 million operating cost your still making a lost. Pos are not easy to move around and the fast amount of people will not move their pos. all the parts need to be made if players are to build tech II parts so the 'only do the profitable material does not hold up'. it would be if NO body mined Trit their would be no player made ships at all.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.30 18:31:00 - [190] Originally by: Malakai Edited by: Malakai on 30/12/2004 17:16:41 Yes my corp runs POS at a profit, all well defended and easily manageable, all those involved are paid well. Not everything will be profitable like any in industry, so pick the ones that are, when there is a glut there will be a lack of different materials, then you switch. even if you take say a tech II part thats 10k (most are between 6k to 10k) and say 40 million operating cost your still making a lost. Pos are not easy to move around and the fast amount of people will not move their pos. all the parts need to be made if players are to build tech II parts so the 'only do the profitable material does not hold up'. it would be if NO body mined Trit their would be no player made ships at all.
Hessi	Posted - 2004.12.30 19:00:00 - [191] Edited by: Hessi on 30/12/2004 19:01:57 Well, it is a well known fact that Reactors are the critical element in T2 production at the moment, which explains their high prices and is also the reason that producing Fermionic Condestates is a very profitable way to run stations. Once enough people are able to build reactors from moon minerals, reactors will no longer be the choke points of t2 production and prices for them drop down a good deal. Another t2 component will then be the new undersupplied component, which then in turn will get a lot more expensive and viable to produce via PoS. Over time, a new balance will form, which should allow the profitable production of all t2 components, given the demand for t2 items is higher than what can be produced from agent runners t2 components.
Hessi	Posted - 2004.12.30 19:00:00 - [192] Edited by: Hessi on 30/12/2004 19:01:57 Well, it is a well known fact that Reactors are the critical element in T2 production at the moment, which explains their high prices and is also the reason that producing Fermionic Condestates is a very profitable way to run stations. Once enough people are able to build reactors from moon minerals, reactors will no longer be the choke points of t2 production and prices for them drop down a good deal. Another t2 component will then be the new undersupplied component, which then in turn will get a lot more expensive and viable to produce via PoS. Over time, a new balance will form, which should allow the profitable production of all t2 components, given the demand for t2 items is higher than what can be produced from agent runners t2 components.
Malakai	Posted - 2004.12.30 21:30:00 - [193] Originally by: Hessi Edited by: Hessi on 30/12/2004 19:01:57 Well, it is a well known fact that Reactors are the critical element in T2 production at the moment, which explains their high prices and is also the reason that producing Fermionic Condestates is a very profitable way to run stations. Once enough people are able to build reactors from moon minerals, reactors will no longer be the choke points of t2 production and prices for them drop down a good deal. Another t2 component will then be the new undersupplied component, which then in turn will get a lot more expensive and viable to produce via PoS. Over time, a new balance will form, which should allow the profitable production of all t2 components, given the demand for t2 items is higher than what can be produced from agent runners t2 components. Exactly
Malakai	Posted - 2004.12.30 21:30:00 - [194] Originally by: Hessi Edited by: Hessi on 30/12/2004 19:01:57 Well, it is a well known fact that Reactors are the critical element in T2 production at the moment, which explains their high prices and is also the reason that producing Fermionic Condestates is a very profitable way to run stations. Once enough people are able to build reactors from moon minerals, reactors will no longer be the choke points of t2 production and prices for them drop down a good deal. Another t2 component will then be the new undersupplied component, which then in turn will get a lot more expensive and viable to produce via PoS. Over time, a new balance will form, which should allow the profitable production of all t2 components, given the demand for t2 items is higher than what can be produced from agent runners t2 components. Exactly
voidvim	Posted - 2005.01.02 03:12:00 - [195] Originally by: Hessi Edited by: Hessi on 30/12/2004 19:01:57 Well, it is a well known fact that Reactors are the critical element in T2 production at the moment, which explains their high prices and is also the reason that producing Fermionic Condestates is a very profitable way to run stations. Once enough people are able to build reactors from moon minerals, reactors will no longer be the choke points of t2 production and prices for them drop down a good deal. Another t2 component will then be the new undersupplied component, which then in turn will get a lot more expensive and viable to produce via PoS. Over time, a new balance will form, which should allow the profitable production of all t2 components, given the demand for t2 items is higher than what can be produced from agent runners t2 components. over all I agree with you but.. eve is a game and thus.. Real world thorys do not translate 100% in to the world of eve. The problem is the agent runner have set the price for differnt tech II parts and people have a idea of what the price 'should' be for differnt parts. It will be very paid full for the pos industery to change the cost of componts. What needs to happen is a bit of min-max all the expence if stuff needs to drop and the isk transfer over to the cheapest stuff. CPP really needed to give the pos industery a form of training wheels, some way for every pos to just about break even. Also this same system should not allow any pos or group of pos to make more profit. If you do the math like most of skeptic's have (we have the spread sheets to prouve it) on the cureent make prices of items and lot of tech II parts are not worth making and selling hence most of the pos industery trys make just reactors and thrusters. This creats a chiken and egg problem for CPP, they can't stop agent drops untill the pos industery makes all the items but the pos industery will not make all the items until agents runner stop geting items and get other stuff like say Implants . The best thing cpp could have done is just stop the agent drops dead when they introduce pos it would have been 'very' messy but would have create a HUGE incentive to build a pos and peeople would be far more inclinde to make every part. In stead they flooding the market with the cheaper componds very much felt like a kick in the face to a lot of new pos owners. One thing CPP could do is stop giving out the cheap items on the market first this would make a good incentive to make them. Then move on to the second cheapist and so on.
DrPhil	Posted - 2005.01.02 12:22:00 - [196] Originally by: Sticky Vicky Originally by: KarateKid I couldn't have said it better myself Another BIG problem is the CPU needed to do 1 advance reaction. Atm. only the caldari tower has enough CPU to run 5 siloes and 1 reactor at the same time, something which is needed for alot of the advanced reactions. And then you can't do anything else with the POS, since you have no CPU for moon harvesters or the silo to mine into! atm you need to babysit your POS with couppling arrays to do the complex ones. It doesn't really look like CCP has thought this through at all! I would really really like a respons on this, what did you think when you did this? The solution is simple though: Lower silo and/or reactor CPU need. Give towers more CPU. Release the promised supercomputers. preferably a combination! Specialisation? You cant expect to do everything at one POS, alternativly turn off the moon harvesters (im guessing the silo's will be needed for the reaction anyways). There may be a fundemental flaw in this idea, im still stock piling the raw's and have not yet tried switching over to the reaction process. That is without the harvestors on - as Karate Kid says on some towers you can not run 5 silos and 1 reactor so you can not do some complex reactions. Example: Amarr Tower = 5500 CPU 5 * Silos = 3750 1 * Reactor = 2500 Total = 6250. The best an amarr tower can do is have 4 silos and 1 reactor to produce complex reactions that need three inputs.
Andrew Redburn	Posted - 2005.01.03 13:22:00 - [197] Actually I think that EACH POS should be able to do anything and the only limitation should be the amount of defense/offense fitting. Thus I would make Silos, Reactors, etc. use NO CPU/NO POWERGRID, or at least VERY LOW amounts that you can fit minor to medium defense/offense and still have almost any other modules like shiphangar, labslots, etc. connected. Do not forget that later addons like labslots will use CPU/PG too and if you can hardly deploy enough stuff now, how should you ever later on. Also if you could deploy way more modules, the daily loss of each POS would be made up by more allround use of the POS and thus the hauling of fuel, the mining would make sense even if economically bad.
Sokra	Posted - 2005.01.06 19:23:00 - [198] Oveur Posted - 2005.01.06 17:49:00 - Quote I'm assembling information to prioritize the next steps in Starbases, and I'd like to hear your top 5 things. We have decreased the cost of running it,are increasing the profitability of moon mining in the next patch , but what's your pet peeve or favorite thing you would like to see next? I want a numbered list, prioritized and the reason you would like it. I will delete pretty much everything else to keep it clean Very Happy nice, and lol
Helmut 314	Posted - 2005.01.06 20:07:00 - [199] Ok, heres my list. 1. Proper security settings for starbases. We need a way to allow use of the structures by people without giving total access to the base management. Its very easy to click the wrong thing and offline something by mistake. 2. Make CPU less important for starbase structures. Minmatar and Amarr towers are severely gimped by their lower CPU. It is not right that certain advanced materials can only be manufactured in a Caldari Starbase. Powergrid on the other hand is only used in the large guns. Rebalance the CPU and grid of all structures to make the different control towers more equal. 3. Ice harvesting needs a boost. Either by making the ice in 0.0 richer in helium or the ice in empire richer. Do you know how boring it is to sit and wait for 2 or three lumps of ice every 7.5 minutes ? Its a massive timesink and only encourages macromining. 4. Ore silos. A bulk storage structure is sorely needed. It doesnt have to have partitions (would be nice though), just lots and lots of room for storing ore and ice while waiting for the refinery to finish. A corp hangar array is too small for storing ores. 5. Manufacturing capabilities. Please. That is my wishlist, I cant see that any of these changes would require much programming, except of course the security bit. But that part is an overlooked and very important thing. As it is now, you cant have a hauler drop off ore unless the "Configure equipment in space" box is checked in his corp settings. That means that they can also accidentally offline the array, or even unanchor it. ___________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
KarateKid	Posted - 2005.01.06 23:05:00 - [200] Linkage to Oveur's post
Cowboy Knut	Posted - 2005.02.11 16:31:00 - [201] hi, i just read the first post. not the rest was to much but ma first tought was: Less security that means when there will be less 0.9-0.5 systems for the noobs. (like me) less security in systems like 0.5- 0.1 = more piracy = more anty piracy = more things get lost in fights = more production is needed also traveling around will not be as easy as it is now. That will keep people in sertain systems/regions. = the production corps in those sytems or regions have to work together. I don't now if I'm right, but when i had the idea it sounded right. no im not a pirat! As one we are dangerous, together we are deadly! Yeehaw
Lagartija Nick	Posted - 2005.02.11 19:54:00 - [202] Think you posted in the wrong thread brother.
voidvim	Posted - 2005.02.12 11:51:00 - [203] Edited by: voidvim on 12/02/2005 11:52:39 Alas this thread is now obsolete The amoun dof ice products in Ice cubes have been chnages. The amount of advanced materials made by advanced reactions have gone up alot. The storage space of silos and coupling arrays have been increased, so now linked coupling arrays can be use for silos. thus all the math needs to be re-done if some body wants to re-do the math and start a need thread (and put A link here) I would be happy partisapate.
Loirin Engelk	Posted - 2005.02.14 11:25:00 - [204] Edited by: Loirin Engelk on 14/02/2005 11:27:34 I'm sorry if I repeat something somebody already said but I read only the first three pages and desperately want to add my own thoughts. The general assumption from those posts (until page 3) is that you should make profit from every moon or at least every moon with 3-4 different minerals...But it does not need to be true. Looking at the market now, which is split between comp makers and mission runners, you see that the most lucrative business is reactor units. They have one unique material: fermionic condensates. Sa what you do is set-up a POS that has a supply of at least 1 raw material used to make fermionic condensates and BUY the rest. Use the reactor array for something useful as opposed to churning out just what your moon has. It does take a lot of work but heck, it's not supposed to be easy. There are so many moons out there for a reason: not all of them are profitable. cheers Loirin Quote: Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.

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