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Petition tofix T2 BPO's issue

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Lolobritzita	Posted - 2010.04.15 13:23:00 - [1] Edited by: Lolobritzita on 15/04/2010 13:24:06 Edited by: Lolobritzita on 15/04/2010 13:23:51 Dear fellow pod pilots, for the obvious reasons, I'll be using an alt for this post, since I'm expecting a lot of flamming and I don't need any in-game issues right now. Quite recently, there was a dev blog posted, regarding the creation of safe spots and the fixing of the related in-game mechanics that will not allow their creation anymore. In this dev-blog, CCP Lemur and CCP Greyscale clearly sate that they do not want to create any situation with unfair advantage of the old players with bookmarks against the new players that do not have them - to quote their words: "This creates a division between older "haves" and newer "have-nots": as a new player coming into the game, the only way you'd be able to reach points outside the system proper would be to acquire a bookmark from an older player." For me this opens the Pandora's Box. If the developers think that the old players having deep space safespots is an unfair advantage against the new players, HOW ABOUT THE T2 BPO's IN THE GAME? ARE THEY NOT AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE FOR THE OLD PLAYERS AGAINST THE NEW? If you agree sign along. If you dont flame as much as you like. PS: I have nothing to do with a well known to these forums character that deals with this issue as well. edit: typos
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.04.15 13:28:00 - [2] LHA? Is it really you?
Lolobritzita	Posted - 2010.04.15 13:36:00 - [3] Originally by: Lutz Major LHA? Is it really you? No, I'm not. By the way, this is a petition to FIX the problem. That doesnt necessarily means to remove them. They could fix invention or make them accessible to everyone again, I don't care. Me and a lot others dont like the current situation though.
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2010.04.15 13:38:00 - [4] Seriously.... Do we need another damn T2 BPO topic? DO WE? T2 BPOs are balanced in that invention can produce sheer numbers to make profit and BPO owners have less material reqs. END OF STORY. JFC, if you really feel you wanna pipe-up about T2 BPO, post it in one of the other f*ing topics, do not make a new one! ----------------------------------- Originally by:** Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.04.15 13:47:00 - [5] Originally by: Lolobritzita By the way, this is a petition to FIX the problem. Problem with what? That they exist? Do you have a problem with Existance, Lolobritzita? Do you? And while we are at fixing: I find it unfair, that I have only 15M skill points and people playing for years have 100M+! I want to have 100M SP too!! CCP FIX THIS!
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.04.15 13:54:00 - [6] Wrong headed thinking level 5 detected. CCP doesn't want deep safe spots => so CCP removes them. CCP wants more T2 production => so CCP makes T2 production more accessible to pilots without T2 BPOs. One thing is not like the other and Lolobritzita has failed at detecting this, recommendation train perception, analytical mind and logic. Also I'll add there is at least one class of T2 BPO that is good overall. The interceptor BPOs. These BPOs account for most of the production runs and the reason for this is short build times and lower costs. These lower costs are then passed along to consumer of interceptors. When someone says a T2 BPO is bad it is invariably a person who doesn't own any and is either about to get into invention or is already doing inventing (not all them just a few). To them the BPO is bad--these players can out compete me therefore it they are horribly game breaking. Of course, never mind that it is T2 invention that sets the market clearing price. That even if you removed all BPOs nothing would happen to price. As for an unfair advantage the one here is minimal if it exists at all. As has been pointed out before the dominant mode of T2 production in general is to use invention not BPOs. The prices set in T2 markets are by buyers and sellers with the sellers being the inventors. The BPO holder does gain a slight advantage in terms of lower costs and higher profits, but at the same time this has come at a serious loss of BPO value with the introduction of invention. That BPO value was transferred from the BPO holders to inventors. Why was this not "unfair"? TL;DR--As usual we get another thread that says, "He has something, I don't so unfair, take his something away!" Older players also have more skill points, maybe we should nerf those too.
Dalden V Blue Lounge Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2010.04.15 14:06:00 - [7] You can still get a T2 BPO, using the same technique a lot of older players are using. Buy them! There are lots of them for sale. And before you say but how is that different from getting bookmarks from older players? Well, buying a deep-safe bookmark from someone doesn't make it that safe anymore does it? Without the ability to create unique deep-safes only the old players with existing bookmarks benefit.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.04.15 14:09:00 - [8] And now for something just as relevant
Kirsi Kirjasto	Posted - 2010.04.15 14:45:00 - [9] Best way to go, to fix Invention IMO? Full scale Obama-style Hope and Change. Remove all T2 BPOs. BPO holders are in a minority and their complaints will not have much affect on the bottom line, therefore are meaningless. Inventors are in the majority and will benefit as the playing field is now leveled, making society better for everyone, even those priveleged few who lost their ISK printing machines. Remember, T2 BPO owners = Cheney/Halliburton.
Lolobritzita	Posted - 2010.04.15 14:49:00 - [10] ^^ First constructive answer, impressed

Max Nero Endless Fury	Posted - 2010.04.15 15:34:00 - [11] Is it that time of the week again? If you want a level field and "Free Stuff For Everyone"(tm), Sisi is ========> that way, otherwise grind like the rest of T2 BPO owners for a year or two to afford your own T2 BPO collection.
tehsuxOr Poor Old Ornery nOObs	Posted - 2010.04.15 16:11:00 - [12] Originally by: Lolobritzita HOW ABOUT THE T2 BPO's IN THE GAME? ARE THEY NOT AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE FOR THE OLD PLAYERS AGAINST THE NEW? There is nothing stopping a new player from buying any of of the BPO's constantly for sale on the forums. Most of the BPO onwers today were not the same people who received their bpo's from the old lotteries, most bought them from the forums. I never won any bpos in the old lotteries, and now I have 8, all of which I bought by working hard. So because you are too lazy to work for anything we should remove them lol? What are you going to be complaining about next titans? Those are for older players that can afford them and have worked hard enough to be able to buy one of their own, shall we remove those too? Go complain about the corporations some more you hippy.This is capitalism get used to it.
Umega Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.04.15 16:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Kirsi Kirjasto Best way to go, to fix Invention IMO? Full scale Obama-style Hope and Change. Remove all T2 BPOs. BPO holders are in a minority and their complaints will not have much affect on the bottom line, therefore are meaningless. Inventors are in the majority and will benefit as the playing field is now leveled, making society better for everyone, even those priveleged few who lost their ISK printing machines. Remember, T2 BPO owners = Cheney/Halliburton. Don't forget to mention the low/middle class spending beyond their means wanting things handed to them after their own continuous mistakes, believing they are some how entitled to everything just because they exist. Don't forget to mention the upper class wanting what they have earned on their own so they can continue to support and pay for jobs to the lower/middle class. I know.. its such a bazaar concept for the now majority to grasp of earning what you have and saving to achieve something. Everyone seems to want the same as anyone they wish to point a finger at on a whim. I'm sure Darwin is already starting to roll over in his grave at the human species current pace. Jealousy and greed kills babies.. quit crying about BPOs and go buy one. Or are you whiners incapable of such a thing? ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-
Pellit1 Caldari Bushwhackers Rough Necks	Posted - 2010.04.15 16:44:00 - [14] If they go ahead with their game-wrecking plans to remove DSPs and everything in them, then T2 BPOs need to be removed, certainly. /signed ------------- Rough Necks Alliance BOOST FALCONS. Nerf whiners.
Transporter Ted Midas Tycho	Posted - 2010.04.15 16:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Lolobritzita Edited by: Lolobritzita on 15/04/2010 13:24:06 Post Is this the time to ask if you want to buy my Ishtar BPO? :P
Kirsi Kirjasto	Posted - 2010.04.15 16:51:00 - [16] We have too much 'decade of greed' thinking going on here. This is the new era. Yes, T2 BPO owners will have to make a small sacrifice, but its for the good of the entire EVE community. The wealthy elite are best able to make sacrifices anyway. They are complaining, but seriously, they are already heavily invested in Eve - what are they going to do, play another game? If they (god forbid) get mad and rage quit, it will hardly affect CCP's bottom line as they are so few in number.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.04.15 16:53:00 - [17] Edited by: Akita T on 15/04/2010 16:53:57 Originally by: Kirsi Kirjasto T2 BPO owners will have to make a small sacrifice Why should they have to ? Quote: but its for the good of the entire EVE community. Prove that it would be a good thing. P.S. Unless your entire post was made with sarcasm mode on, in which case, no answer would be necessary. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Caractacus Dio w00t Industries	Posted - 2010.04.15 16:55:00 - [18] Edited by: Caractacus Dio on 15/04/2010 16:55:53 The trouble is people who have bought T2 BPOs from hard earned ISK will get hit too hard. Put yourself in their shoes, wouldn't be fair. The politics on correctly refunding these people would be extremely difficult.
mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire	Posted - 2010.04.15 17:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Kirsi Kirjasto Best way to go, to fix Invention IMO? Full scale Obama-style Hope and Change. Remove all T2 BPOs. BPO holders are in a minority and their complaints will not have much affect on the bottom line, therefore are meaningless. Inventors are in the majority and will benefit as the playing field is now leveled, making society better for everyone, even those priveleged few who lost their ISK printing machines. Remember, T2 BPO owners = Cheney/Halliburton. What? Way to inject your ridiculous political views into the situation. If you are a sheep looking for a herdmans I recommend you follow this guy.
tehsuxOr Poor Old Ornery nOObs	Posted - 2010.04.15 17:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Caractacus Dio Edited by: Caractacus Dio on 15/04/2010 16:55:53 The trouble is people who have bought T2 BPOs from hard earned ISK will get hit too hard. Put yourself in their shoes, wouldn't be fair. The politics on correctly refunding these people would be extremely difficult. Whille were at it we should level the playing field even more, lets remove all isk in any wallet above 1b isk, remove all titans and super caps and really have a level playing field. It's not fair that a noob cant have 50bisk plus why should any of the older players? It's a small sacrifice the elite would have to make for the good of the game. We are after looking to make things as fair as possible. Lets also make combat in eve consentual only. Lets place cmbat only in certain areas, where fighters can agree on numbers and ship type. Only way to give the noobs a chance, working hard for years to get to all these expensive ships and skillpoints is not fair. We should also remove any unique ships in game, I wasn't around for most of those events, I demand to have those removed, small sacrifice for those elite players, but it is afterall for the good of the game.

mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire	Posted - 2010.04.15 17:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Kirsi Kirjasto We have too much 'decade of greed' thinking going on here. This is the new era. Yes, T2 BPO owners will have to make a small sacrifice, but its for the good of the entire EVE community. The wealthy elite are best able to make sacrifices anyway. They are complaining, but seriously, they are already heavily invested in Eve - what are they going to do, play another game? If they (god forbid) get mad and rage quit, it will hardly affect CCP's bottom line as they are so few in number. OK, I will admit I have been trolled. Almost responded with a counter post.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.04.15 17:24:00 - [22] Edited by: Akita T on 15/04/2010 17:35:10 __ To answer to the OP in an alternative way... The devblog is about removing the "unfairness" of not having the bookmarks and being unable to make a fresh one yourself, after the method of creating the bookmarks was eliminated (because those particular bookmarks were deemed undesirable), so the only way would have been to copy it from somebody who had one. If you want to compare it with T2 BPOs... translating the bookmarks/probing blog into T2 terms... it would be akin to removing each and every T2 item from everybody alongside all T2 BPOs, because they decided to scrap invention altogether as they decided T2 items would be undesitable. New deep safe bookmark creation - Invention Old deep safe bookmark copying - T2 BPOs Deep safe bookmarks - T2 items And the skills just because they would be useless afterwards anyway. __ So, yeah, you can remove all T2 BPOs. As soon as you remove all T2 items from the game, and remove invention, and remove all T2-related skills everybody has. That would be only fair to everybody in a similar fashion. Would you like that ? I'd sign that petition ![/sarcasm] _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
tehsuxOr Poor Old Ornery nOObs	Posted - 2010.04.15 17:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 15/04/2010 17:35:10 __ To answer to the OP in an alternative way... The devblog is about removing the "unfairness" of not having the bookmarks and being unable to make a fresh one yourself, after the method of creating the bookmarks was eliminated (because those particular bookmarks were deemed undesirable), so the only way would have been to copy it from somebody who had one. If you want to compare it with T2 BPOs... translating the bookmarks/probing blog into T2 terms... it would be akin to removing each and every T2 item from everybody alongside all T2 BPOs, because they decided to scrap invention altogether as they decided T2 items would be undesitable. New deep safe bookmark creation - Invention Old deep safe bookmark copying - T2 BPOs Deep safe bookmarks - T2 items And the skills just because they would be useless afterwards anyway. __ So, yeah, you can remove all T2 BPOs. As soon as you remove all T2 items from the game, and remove invention, and remove all T2-related skills everybody has. That would be only fair to everybody in a similar fashion. Would you like that ? I'd sign that petition ![/sarcasm] To the OP.... you just got owned.
Kirsi Kirjasto	Posted - 2010.04.15 17:53:00 - [24] Just so everyone is clear, this is a classic battle between powerful special interests (Akita, etc.) and the masses (represented by LHA Tarawa, myself and the OP). As it was once so eloquently said, "The people vs the powerful." Naturally, those special interests are going to lobby aggressively for the status quo. Why? Naturally they want to maintain their position on the top - with all the privilege and benefits that go with it. But this is a new era. We have the audacity to hope for a better future. To imagine a New Eden where ALL share in the bounty of internet spaceships.
Yarinor Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.15 17:53:00 - [25] Originally by: Akita T Absolutely no T2 item/ship would go down in price, so it's not a "good for the consumer", at best it's a draw. Actually I do believe we'll see an overall price increase as the demand for datacores/decryptors/fuel(?) will rise
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.04.15 17:58:00 - [26] Edited by: Akita T on 15/04/2010 18:02:33 Originally by: Yarinor Originally by: Akita T Absolutely no T2 item/ship would go down in price, so it's not a "good for the consumer", at best it's a draw. Actually I do believe we'll see an overall price increase as the demand for datacores/decryptors/fuel(?) will rise Yeah, a little. But that'll also come down as more people reactivate older dormant datacore alts, and more people start bothering to get the needed skills/standings as datacores become a better income, and it'll all go back down eventually. Originally by: Kirsi Kirjasto Just so everyone is clear, this is a classic battle between powerful special interests (Akita, etc.) Just so everyone is also clear, for the record : I have never owned any T2 BPOs, none of my corpmates have owned any T2 BPOs as far as I know either, I have never received compensation for defending T2 BPOs nor anything even remotely similar, and I don't even plan to buy any T2 BPOs in the future so that's also out of the question. From a purely "personal profit" standpoint, T2 BPOs would all vanish tomorrow and it would not affect me negatively in any way, shape or form. This is purely a matter of principle for me. If CCP would cave in to the screaming unwashed masses just because they feel they've been somehow wronged, and they wipe out huge equivalent values of wealth from select people for no other reason than to appease those screams, what exactly would that say about CCP ? I'd trust them far less with just about anything, that's for sure. Who knows who or what would be next on the chopping board. A lot of the "leave T2 BPOs alone" brigade are in the same boat. So... what or who exactly are those "powerful special interests" you speak of ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
tehsuxOr Poor Old Ornery nOObs	Posted - 2010.04.15 17:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Yarinor Originally by: Akita T Absolutely no T2 item/ship would go down in price, so it's not a "good for the consumer", at best it's a draw. Actually I do believe we'll see an overall price increase as the demand for datacores/decryptors/fuel(?) will rise Briefly yes, and then people will jump on the wagon and the market will balance out again.
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2010.04.15 18:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Kirsi Kirjasto Just so everyone is clear, this is a classic battle between powerful special interests (Akita, etc.) and the masses (represented by LHA Tarawa, myself and the OP). As it was once so eloquently said, "The people vs the powerful." Naturally, those special interests are going to lobby aggressively for the status quo. Why? Naturally they want to maintain their position on the top - with all the privilege and benefits that go with it. But this is a new era. We have the audacity to hope for a better future. To imagine a New Eden where ALL share in the bounty of internet spaceships. How arrogant are you? You do NOT speak for the 'masses'. Nor does the OP and certainly not LHA. As a member of the masses, I support KEEPING T2 BPOs because it gives people a long term goal. This game is not fair. That is the way it is. If you do not like it, I know of a few games you can play where 'fairness' is always attempted. As a newer player, I love the fact that not everyone has access to everything. Makes the game interesting and layered. Have you ever played WoW? Everyone looks exactly the same because everyone has access to the same gear, etc. IT IS BORING when games are designed that way. But seriously... Drop the T2 BPO racket. People have them, you will probably never have one. Oh well. I will probably never own a Ferrari, but I like the fact that they exist and that I might someday (even if it is unlikely) own one! ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.04.15 18:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Joe SMASH How arrogant are you? You do NOT speak for the 'masses'. Well, to be fair, he does speak for the clueless masses The "informed masses" don't really mind at all. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.04.15 18:24:00 - [30] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Joe SMASH How arrogant are you? You do NOT speak for the 'masses'. Well, to be fair, he does speak for the clueless masses The "informed masses" don't really mind at all. This. You give them books, and give them books, and all they do, is eat the pages. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.



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