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Petition tofix T2 BPO's issue

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Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.04.20 02:56:00 - [121] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 20/04/2010 03:00:22 Edited by: Jovialmadness on 20/04/2010 02:58:41 Originally by: LHA Tarawa Originally by: Joe SMASH Seriously.... Do we need another damn T2 BPO topic? DO WE? Have they been removed, or has there been a mechanism added that allowers newer players a reasonible oppertunity to obtain them? This issue is NOT going to go away simply because the "haves" want it to. It will only go away when it has been resolved. Fix invention to be less of a click fest and to pass PE and ME through. OR Modify invention so there is the possibility of created a new T2 BPO. OR Remove the T2 BPOs that are already in the game. Until one of these 3 happen, the issue if NOT going to go away. Daily or at least weekly, there will be a post pointing out what an EVIL situation T2 BPOs and invention are. Of course the issue is not going to go away. Since you are such an idiot and i really do think you are one i feel it is my duty to inform others of why you are one. The REAL issue is envy guys. THAT is why the issue will never go away. Nobody can prove that they, meaning T2 bpo's actually cause game breaking issues such as issues that have warranted game changes in the past. That last statement is key guys! NOT one single person will be able to provide you with ANY evidence that provides CLEAR proof of any game breaking issues concerning T@ bpo's. These idiots are simply jealous and need to GTFO of this game and go back to playing whatever game they had before. Edit: Oh and your change of heart to invention fixing is almost acceptable but its still a BS move to make since your real goal is to have the bpo's removed.
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.04.20 03:55:00 - [122] Edited by: Misanthra on 20/04/2010 03:56:02 Originally by: LHA Tarawa [ Modify invention so there is the possibility of created a new T2 BPO. Not really a fix though since some will still complain to get any chance at this they will have to probably have to 5 every research skill lol. Way I see these arguments, its usually newer (some older disgruntled ones though lol) indy's hating advantages given to older players (either the original lotto winners still around, or the indy's who have been saving their iskies up for years). If this ability came up...ccp would more than likely make this a 5 across the board calculation just to have a snowball's chance in hell. Still would have that great divide between new and old. Looking at the other common thread here, that being invention is broke because I get 2 out of 20, see some trends. One is got tons of inventors who think 4 every skill on a bpo is a hardship. 5 would have them screaming bloody murder. 4 year old indy's posting they made 2 bpos this weekend, new indy's going that some bs...Fact that 4 yr old probably 5'd relevant skills be the hot debate. Ofc he got it, been playing for 4 yrs. Lets nerf the calculation to be more fair to a char who started 2 months ago.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2010.04.20 04:10:00 - [123] Originally by: Misanthra Way I see these arguments, its usually newer (some older disgruntled ones though lol) indy's hating advantages given to older players (either the original lotto winners still around, or the indy's who have been saving their iskies up for years). You're wrong. The existence of the t2 bpos is now irrelevant to making profits from invention. The ones who are bitter have not done any calculations and are not involved in invention at all. They simply don't know what they're talking about. You'll notice that the t2 bpo haters have not provided any calculations to support their argument. Those who are apathetic to their existence do not own any, nor do they need to. Invention has done what it was intended to do. The cartels are broken and T2 is affordable. Those who can do simple math make profits. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
MercedesBenz hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.04.20 05:06:00 - [124] Originally by: Lolobritzita Unfair curse BPO owner producing with 30 mil profit while the others invent at a loss / Stupid people thinking datacores, minerals, moon goo etc are for free thus they invent and sell at a loss = Not the same Only morons that don't know how to work the market and utilize buy orders are the people producing curse (or any ship for that matter) at a loss. As you mentioned you don't invent T2 ships, which can net a good profit (I've done it with great results), So how in the world would you even know if a curse inventor is producing stuff at a loss??? Your point/argument/rebuttal/whatever you said fails. Originally by: Lolobritzita he admitted finally T2 BPOs should be removed No, he didn't. He just admitted that lazy-ass whiners such as yourself are in your current eve-financial situation for a reason, you're lazy and stupid..... are you an alt of ghoest btw? THERE ARE MORE WAYS TO MAKE ISK THAN T2 BPO'S OR INVENTION PEOPLE!
MercedesBenz hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.04.20 05:15:00 - [125] Originally by: Lolobritzita Originally by: Mara Rinn My only complaint about invention is that I can't choose to invent a Curse. I put the Arbitrator BPC into the mix and I will randomly get a Curse or Pilgrim. the flaws of democracy: although it is clear that you are not very familiar with the basics of invention yet you can express your opinion the same applies to many of the responders it is amusing how the T2 BPO owners try to defend their investments and of course they have every right to do so. At the same time I think its provocative that some ppl are talking about 30+mil profit margins for the curse BPO owner while an inventor that has spent at least 3 months of training in skills can produce it only at a loss just for the record, I never supported to remove the T2 BPOs, at least without compensation to the owners PS: Akita, how many T2 BPO's do you have? You sound like you got at least 2 No, Akita is just an awesome forum warrior, in case you didn't know. He/She fights ignorance and miss-information where ever it pops up on these forums.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.20 06:47:00 - [126] Originally by: Wu Marusyn Edited by: Wu Marusyn on 19/04/2010 17:32:25 I've said it once, I'll say it again IMHO, the fairest fix of the current situation would be: 1. leave T2 bpo's as they are 2. give random chance to get a T2 BPO from invention rather than crappy BPC's only 3. (much less preferred) let the T2 BPC invented to preserve qualities of the T1 BPC that was used for invention I think this is a realistic approach As I am a evil man I approve this suggestion. Put it as a proposal in the Assembly Hall and I will support for it. I will have my fun reading the emo threads when people finally realize what it will do.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.20 11:05:00 - [127] Originally by: Professor Leech Invention has done what it was intended to do. The cartels are broken and T2 is affordable. so, the cartels were caused by what? BY WHAT??? Invention helped a lot but not in every situation, the actual solution is to remove the root of all trouble - T2 BPOs. They were obtained by defective game mechnanics, so the only viable solution were removing their results along with their source.
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.04.20 11:37:00 - [128] Yes. T2 BPO's should be removed. Failing that seed them to the market. They lottery winners have already got enough out of it.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.20 11:50:00 - [129] Originally by: Carniflex Failing that seed them to the market. Imagine if they were seeded at the prices they're selling on trade forum now - would you buy one? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.20 12:16:00 - [130] Originally by: Cpt Branko Imagine if they were seeded at the prices they're selling on trade forum now - would you buy one? I think the prices are the result of failed market seeding, its what he meant.

Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.04.20 13:05:00 - [131] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Professor Leech Invention has done what it was intended to do. The cartels are broken and T2 is affordable. so, the cartels were caused by what? BY WHAT??? Invention helped a lot but not in every situation, the actual solution is to remove the root of all trouble - T2 BPOs. They were obtained by defective game mechnanics, so the only viable solution were removing their results along with their source. The game mechanics were not defect!! Or do you think state lotteries have a defect mechanism too? It was a design decision back then, which was planed and approved by a lot of people! Then another design decision fell and Invention was introduced. If you got one of those BPOs back then, you would now whine, that you had lost sooooo much money with the introduction of invention. Do you see any BPO owners lammenting here? Do you? No. It's just you and some others, who cry "unfair". But I ask again: What's unfair? How will the decision to remove T2 BPOs affect you? And don't say something like 'All would be equal' - I DON'T WANT TO BE EQUAL!
tehsuxOr Poor Old Ornery nOObs	Posted - 2010.04.20 14:26:00 - [132] Edited by: tehsuxOr on 20/04/2010 14:28:17 Complaining that it's not fair new players can't get a T2 BPO's lol, a new player cant get a titan or guardian vexor, or silver magante. What a new player can do is WORK for some isk for a month and buy himself a T2 BPO from the dozens constantly for sale. Oh wait I forgot you don't want to work, you want things spoon fed to you lmao Kids STFU and go play wow. There when you get ganked you don't lose anything. Originally by: Carniflex Yes. T2 BPO's should be removed. Failing that seed them to the market. They lottery winners have already got enough out of it. The majority of owners today are from people who bough their BPO's from other players. Think before you post kiddo.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.21 10:56:00 - [133] Originally by: LHA Tarawa stuff Keep posting your worthless ****e mate, it's not going to change... the only thing that will happen is you'll wear out the following keys on your keyboard: T 2 B P O ...but at least then we'll get some peace and quiet.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2010.04.21 16:21:00 - [134] Originally by: Lolobritzita ARE THEY NOT AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE FOR THE OLD PLAYERS AGAINST THE NEW? Like unique ships, having more skill points, having more isk etc? No they're not, because their function is entirely and completely reproducible via invention. An invented item performs in a competitive way exactly the same as one produced by a BPO. In terms of profits, they do not compete AT ALL because the profit from invention is determined solely and entirely by other inventors. While a deep safe makes you 'invulnerable' in a competitive PVP way due to the scanning changes. The point being that deep safes were never INTENDED while T2 BPOs were deliberately introduced. Alternatively, we could wipe the entire server every 3 months. That would mean you would only ever be 3 months in front of a new player hey? Or you could just suck it up and accept it, or deal with the fact that it is EASIER and more affordable for you to buy a T2 BPO now than it ever was for an 'old player' to do so.
RP McMurphy The CULT OF DAMNED	Posted - 2010.05.04 08:41:00 - [135] Ohh jezz, so much fuzz about this and there is so many simple solutions: - BPOs are problematic, since there is no luck involved in building item, no penalty on building materials and time, no additional isk sink for starting production - invention is problematic, since there is random number god involved, u need more skills (isk, time), penalty on building materials (-4 ME and PE), u need additional isk to even start it (so apart from bpo to make bpc, u need datacores and decryptors) we need to meet halfway. Simply removing BPOs is not an option, so we need to somehow make invention a little more in line with owning BPO. In line with beeing more competitive on market, since BPO owner can build every item for much much less cost then invention user (better ME, PE; no need for datacores or skills, no random number god invovled in process). Simple solution: tweak drop of datafiles, tweak drop of datacores, make default ME and PE -1 or even 0 (invention users already have to "pay" for getting LIMITED bpc). Owning a BPO is not a problem. Problem is that alternative is not good enough. And it has nothing to do with removing DSBMs from game.
Vardemis Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.05.04 12:21:00 - [136] T2 BPOs are not a problem, therefore there is no need to fix them.
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.05.04 15:55:00 - [137] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Professor Leech Invention has done what it was intended to do. The cartels are broken and T2 is affordable. so, the cartels were caused by what? BY WHAT??? Invention helped a lot but not in every situation, the actual solution is to remove the root of all trouble - T2 BPOs. They were obtained by defective game mechnanics, so the only viable solution were removing their results along with their source. A solution to what exactly? You do realize that if you remove T2 BPO's very little will change, prices will not magically increase or decrease due to this, nor will profit margins be effected. I've spent the past month or so tooling around with ship invention, and I've found some things very interesting. The profit margins for ships with no T2 BPO's in existence as some of the least profitable ships to produce in game. The Phobos nets me about 15 mill profit, broadsword about 25 mill. My marauder bpcs I have invented I haven't even bothered to produce as the math makes me sad. However for the ships that do have T2 BPOs out for them. I have sold some Oneirosi to the public market for 60 mill more than it cost me to produce ((about %100 profit)market already corrected yourself so if you missed out sorry dude). Ishtars and vagabonds have about 35 mill in profit selling to jita of all places. The place where I can make money in ship invention seems to be the well established market where the T2 BPO's still exist, and where I can lose my ass is the market where there is no T2 BPO's. So just basing my past 1.5 years of experience in invention the only real problem you have is that someone somewhere in this game has the ability to make more isk than you at producing Item A, to that all I can say is tough ***** stop crying. While there is a few things I would love to see fixed in the invention process like quicker and more reliable ways of obtaining datacores, and an ME tweak in the T2 BPC's. The realist in me just realizes if any of those go through it just means the prices for T2 will crash again, and in the long run will not do jack or **.
Quadtro	Posted - 2010.05.04 19:35:00 - [138] simple idea ... keep invention as is and offer a 1:4,555,omfg,999 chance of creating a actual bpo it will allow for inventors to hope for something adn when they get ti they will realize that they actually make more isk with bpcs and running mulitple lines at the same time. The tech 2 bpos will still hold value but over time the market prices for them will come down, prices on finished products are already regulated by the inventors so they cannot say that it will create a new monopoly. that being said ... let the envy go man and play the internet spaceship game for fun instead of crying noob tears
Trinuoa Bitrtura	Posted - 2010.05.07 19:33:00 - [139] I'm sure if you had a tech2 BPO you wouldn't complain like you doing right now, thats just being jealous of what others have.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2010.05.08 01:42:00 - [140] Originally by: RP McMurphy Simple solution: tweak drop of datafiles, tweak drop of datacores, make default ME and PE -1 or even 0 (invention users already have to "pay" for getting LIMITED bpc). Any T2 BPO worth its salt is already being built at a rapid facility incurring another 20% waste (making the BPO no better than ME-1) and they cost a massive amount more than the amount 'paid' for BPCs. Basically, you pay for a BPC, you pay for a BPO, you pay more per run for the BPO, but you gain a small amount (not all) of that back through the extra margin (potentially). Either buy a T2 BPO or argue for them to be boosted, because either they are worth buying or not.

Mooney92 Minmatar Old Dominion Engineering Consortium.	Posted - 2010.05.08 03:00:00 - [141] Originally by: Kirsi Kirjasto We have too much 'decade of greed' thinking going on here. This is the new era. Yes, T2 BPO owners will have to make a small sacrifice, but its for the good of the entire EVE community. The wealthy elite are best able to make sacrifices anyway. They are complaining, but seriously, they are already heavily invested in Eve - what are they going to do, play another game? If they (god forbid) get mad and rage quit, it will hardly affect CCP's bottom line as they are so few in number. This is an interesting topic and I would say one that is pretty much impossible to discuss in a civilized manor. What it boils down to is, there are people that agree and people that disagree. So it is in online space ship games, so it is in the world. This issue will never be resolved in a discussion because it is controversial. I don't own a blue print original. Do I want one? Of course I do. How can I get one? I can only buy it. Is that unfair? No. Why? I can still make t2 items without a bpo. That just means I cannot make them as efficiently. Tough luck. That is capitalism, the only system that works. If you want a bpo, you must buy it. A good comparison to this issue is some of the old time cars. 1960-70s, the cars in prime condition, that are sold at auction for hundreds of thousands of dollars. You cannot acquire these by the makers anymore. The only way to get them is by buying it from the owners. Should the federal government step in and say hey, thats not fair to the majority! Give me your keys!? Of course not, as that is truly the only thing that is unfair. They bought those cars with their money just as the oldie players of eve bought the blue prints with their isk. It belongs to them, and them only, and the conversation ends right there. The people that do not have the bpo's complain saying its unfair, then accuse the bpo owners of being greedy. Rather humerous if you think about that for one minute. I promise you, if the people who are doing the complaining had blue print originals, their look on things would change would it not? Why? Because they bought it. Who can logically agree with the sollution of "lets take out all bpo's to level the playing field." That is greed. You are taking away something that isn't yours because you can't have it. Under the pretense of the owners being greedy. Anyone who wants to get rid of something because they don't have it, which is to say everyone, or atleast the majority, are the true greedy ones. And that is the end of the matter. You can compare this issue with many other issues and it soon comes clear, to those who want to listen, putting greed aside, that this does not need to be fixed. The way the blue print originals have been delt with makes the most sense, and is the fairest way to go about doing things. CCP see's that, I see it, and as mentioned, anyone with half a brain can see it. Get over yourselves, you can't have something that doesn't belong to you, and you will not get rid of them because of that. P.S. You sound like a liberal propagandist. You ought to look into a job as a cnn news anchor "We are only as strong as we stand united and only as weak as we stand divided" - Dumbledore
XscarX	Posted - 2010.05.08 05:19:00 - [142] Great Lolz from the rich guys who say the majority of t2 bpos have been bought on the forums Please feed more propaganda. The real isk prints have stayed in the owners hands as they are not true isk prints these little ammo and other bpos are not isk prints. They make relative good isk the last good isk print i saw was the hulk bpo and that went for 100 bil. Majority of t2 bpos have no real effect on smaller parts of the market as i have made quality isk on t2 production. t2 ship production is more or less broken due to those that own t2 cruiser/ceptor/frig bpos. These same people have the connections to cheap goo etc etc.. Is it fair not really Is it like real life id say yes. Have these players earned the right to have a corner on the market through years of playing the game. Certainly. For the n00bs who spent a bunch of real life money to get the isk to buy these "isk prints" on forums are nublets that do not know what real isk prints are. They should get the nerf just to make these guys rage. A few less idiots on the market ruining things for others. A real solution to the issue is coming in this update like it or not Doubt it will be an epic nerf on t2 bpos but boy id love it because carebear tears are delicious. A fix on invention or actually some kind of benefit to those who have spent alot of time learning science skills would be awesome. Time will ultimately tell what the end solution for this will be but i firmly believe that come May 17th There will be a lot of epic lolz posts in this discussion area. P.S. I'VE GOT FOUR WORDS P.S.S. I LOVE CAREBEAR TEARS.
EeViLbOrNe ChIlDhAsPaWnD The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.08 06:30:00 - [143] im at the tail end of this topic, and have noticed alot of crying from noobs over the many years ive played this game... isk prints? bleh bpo over invention? bleh quit trying to turn this game into WoW where everything is nerfed to be on a level playing field, or so over powered across all fields that its ****edly so easy... The game was created to be a backyard fun town, where the market is ruled by the players for the players. Therefore, mimicing the reallife market... so why not ask CCP to tell Microcrap to close its doors so other OS creators can get in on the market? YOU ARE ****ED... IF YOUR COMPLAINING ABOUT US OLD DUDES... Emo rage and quit... slacker.
Ticarus Hellbrandt	Posted - 2010.05.08 11:16:00 - [144] new players can easily catch up with old players, just make a few billion and buy a t2 bpo if you're so jealous of them.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.05.08 23:01:00 - [145] Originally by: XscarX Great Lolz from the rich guys who say the majority of t2 bpos have been bought on the forums Please feed more propaganda. The real isk prints have stayed in the owners hands as they are not true isk prints these little ammo and other bpos are not isk prints. They make relative good isk the last good isk print i saw was the hulk bpo and that went for 100 bil. Majority of t2 bpos have no real effect on smaller parts of the market as i have made quality isk on t2 production. t2 ship production is more or less broken due to those that own t2 cruiser/ceptor/frig bpos. These same people have the connections to cheap goo etc etc.. Is it fair not really Is it like real life id say yes. Have these players earned the right to have a corner on the market through years of playing the game. Certainly. For the n00bs who spent a bunch of real life money to get the isk to buy these "isk prints" on forums are nublets that do not know what real isk prints are. They should get the nerf just to make these guys rage. A few less idiots on the market ruining things for others. A real solution to the issue is coming in this update like it or not Doubt it will be an epic nerf on t2 bpos but boy id love it because carebear tears are delicious. A fix on invention or actually some kind of benefit to those who have spent alot of time learning science skills would be awesome. Time will ultimately tell what the end solution for this will be but i firmly believe that come May 17th There will be a lot of epic lolz posts in this discussion area. P.S. I'VE GOT FOUR WORDS P.S.S. I LOVE CAREBEAR TEARS. Hum. I own alot of tech 2 bpo's..nice ones. I manufacture with them too. I am one of the few solo pvp'rs left that honestly engage against odds when possible. If they were to get nerfed it wouldn't be carebear tears coming from me noob. It would be frustration from an old schooler with alot of ambition and lost goals saddened by the fact that the only decent game left caved to you loser cry babies. How's that for a proper response to your fail post?
Revolution Rising R I S E Industries Last-Light	Posted - 2010.05.09 17:43:00 - [146] Fix t2 bpo's. Straighten the system.
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.05.09 18:08:00 - [147] Originally by: Revolution Rising Fix t2 bpo's. Straighten the system. God forbid. You will cancel the sole game joy for so many. What they will whine about then ? Are you so ruthless ?


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