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Petition tofix T2 BPO's issue

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Lolobritzita	Posted - 2010.04.19 08:13:00 - [91] Originally by: Mara Rinn My only complaint about invention is that I can't choose to invent a Curse. I put the Arbitrator BPC into the mix and I will randomly get a Curse or Pilgrim. the flaws of democracy: although it is clear that you are not very familiar with the basics of invention yet you can express your opinion the same applies to many of the responders it is amusing how the T2 BPO owners try to defend their investments and of course they have every right to do so. At the same time I think its provocative that some ppl are talking about 30+mil profit margins for the curse BPO owner while an inventor that has spent at least 3 months of training in skills can produce it only at a loss just for the record, I never supported to remove the T2 BPOs, at least without compensation to the owners PS: Akita, how many T2 BPO's do you have? You sound like you got at least 2
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.04.19 11:21:00 - [92] Edited by: Akita T on 19/04/2010 11:23:04 Originally by: Lolobritzita PS: Akita, how many T2 BPO's do you have? You sound like you got at least 2 I will repeat the things I have said several times over... just a sec, let me find the exact wording I used... warning, brace for long post... ___ Just so everyone is also clear, for the record : I have never owned any T2 BPOs, none of my corpmates have owned any T2 BPOs as far as I know either, I have never received compensation for defending T2 BPOs nor anything even remotely similar, and I don't even plan to buy any T2 BPOs in the future so that's also out of the question. From a purely "personal profit" standpoint, [if] T2 BPOs would all vanish tomorrow ~~and~~ it would not affect me negatively in any way, shape or form. If I would have one or more T2 BPOs, I would be opposed to anything that might decrease their value [if it's selfishness I was after]. I am however merely against destroying/removing them, while not minding at all any of the myriad ways to decrease their value [not my first choice of action though]. This is purely a matter of principle for me. A lot of the "leave T2 BPOs alone" brigade are in the same boat. There is no logical reason to remove them [T2 BPOs] from the game as long as better alternatives exist. And one of those better alternatives is to buff invention until it can directly compete with T2 BPOs. This would effectively render T2 BPOs worth next to nothing (purely a convenience thing) without destroying them. Bottom line, deleting T2 BPOs is not a necessity. There are better ways to handle the "unfairness" of T2 BPOs without destroying them. Anybody arguing that T2 BPOs must be destroyed no matter what is either stupid, greedy, vindictive, or some combination of those things. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Han Jones	Posted - 2010.04.19 12:35:00 - [93] Akita don't bother recapping anything again, its obvious the people that are whining about this believe some grave miscarriage of justice has been thrust upon them even if they have never done invention. The fact is they don't care and want to see other people's assets burn and now that CCP has more or less given them a nuke, they are using it only to find out that its a dud.
Voogru Gallente Massive Damage MACHI MISCHIEF	Posted - 2010.04.19 12:40:00 - [94] Edited by: Voogru on 19/04/2010 12:40:50 Originally by: Han Jones Akita don't bother recapping anything again, its obvious the people that are whining about this believe some grave miscarriage of justice has been thrust upon them even if they have never done invention. The fact is they don't care and want to see other people's assets burn and now that CCP has more or less given them a nuke, they are using it only to find out that its a dud. It's just like in real life. If you're against something that is supposed to 'level the playing field' it's soley because you are selfish. For example, if someone running for office decided to run on the platform of giving everybody 10 million dollars (printed from thin air), all of the idiots would be like YEEEEAAAAHHHHH. And then anyone that sees the problem with doing such a thing and argue against it would be labled a greedy rich person, racist, etc etc. Hate Farmers? Click Here
Han Jones	Posted - 2010.04.19 13:29:00 - [95] Originally by: Voogru Edited by: Voogru on 19/04/2010 12:40:50 Originally by: Han Jones Akita don't bother recapping anything again, its obvious the people that are whining about this believe some grave miscarriage of justice has been thrust upon them even if they have never done invention. The fact is they don't care and want to see other people's assets burn and now that CCP has more or less given them a nuke, they are using it only to find out that its a dud. It's just like in real life. If you're against something that is supposed to 'level the playing field' it's soley because you are selfish. For example, if someone running for office decided to run on the platform of giving everybody 10 million dollars (printed from thin air), all of the idiots would be like YEEEEAAAAHHHHH. And then anyone that sees the problem with doing such a thing and argue against it would be labled a greedy rich person, racist, etc etc. You put into words what I could not. This debate is like that.
Louis deGuerre Gallente Amicus Morte Shock an Awe	Posted - 2010.04.19 13:54:00 - [96] I have to laugh at the lengths people twist their logic to defend T2 BPOs. Best solution : 1. Compensate the T2 BPO owners fair market price. 2. ...profit... 3. Playing field is leveled. 4. Everyone can move and complain about the next FOTM. Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.04.19 14:04:00 - [97] Originally by: Louis deGuerre 1. Compensate the T2 BPO owners fair market price. You think the "anti T2 BPO camp" would ever allow something like that ? Also, how do you establish what "fair market price" is anyway ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Lolobritzita	Posted - 2010.04.19 14:29:00 - [98] Originally by: Akita T And how does your "fairness" radar explain items that have no T2 BPOs at all anywhere in the game and still invent at a loss ? Unfair curse BPO owner producing with 30 mil profit while the others invent at a loss / Stupid people thinking datacores, minerals, moon goo etc are for free thus they invent and sell at a loss = Not the same I respect that you are a man with principles I'm not saying to destroy them either - I never said that If the only way to fix the problem is by removing them, then I'd vote for the people that have paid isk to acquire them to get them refunded. Finally, just for the record: I'm a full time T2 module inventor I do not invent ships even though I got all the relevant skills at level 5 for all races cause I'm aware that I'll be inventing at a loss and I'm allergic to that I have more than enough isk to buy more than one T2 BPO but since I have principles as well I'm not doing it This is the last time I'm posting here, however I urge all the T2 BPO owners to continue posting I'm incredibly amused reading your posts
Louis deGuerre Gallente Amicus Morte Shock an Awe	Posted - 2010.04.19 14:46:00 - [99] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Louis deGuerre 1. Compensate the T2 BPO owners fair market price. You think the "anti T2 BPO camp" would ever allow something like that ? Also, how do you establish what "fair market price" is anyway ? I've yet to hear any 'anti T2 BPO'-player argue against it. In fact, this has been suggested many times. There are several ways to determine a 'fair' price. Just one way to do this : 1. Take highest transaction cost of that T2 BPO on record. 2. Adjust for isk inflation since transaction date. 3. 'fair' price achieved. Several other ones come to mind (relative to BPO item price vs #T2 BPO in existance for example). Of course, I doubt any price would ever be high enough to be 'fair' Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.19 14:58:00 - [100] yes, T2 BPOs are obtained from a defective game mechanic, as later was stated and the mechanic removed, hence they should be removed from the game or converted into T2 BPC with limited production runs.

Narfas Deteis	Posted - 2010.04.19 15:11:00 - [101] Originally by: Robert Caldera yes, T2 BPOs are obtained from a defective game mechanic, as later was stated and the mechanic removed, hence they should be removed from the game or converted into T2 BPC with limited production runs. 1. Spending billions of isk to buy one is not considered as "obtaining from defective game mechanics" as far as I know. There's T2 BPO market, you know. Go buy one. 2. Then CCP should remove all of your assets just to watch your reaction.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.19 15:18:00 - [102] Originally by: Narfas Deteis 1. Spending billions of isk to buy one is not considered as "obtaining from defective game mechanics" as far as I know. There's T2 BPO market, you know. Go buy one. 2. Then CCP should remove all of your assets just to watch your reaction. The BPOs are obtained from the lottery, which was removed later due to balance issues, so all resulting BPOs should be removed. The question is not whether I want one or not but their existence as general.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.04.19 15:22:00 - [103] Evil tech 2 bpo holder checking in. I am done giving complicated responses to you jealous whining little pricks. Not ONCE has a actual proof been given which would result in the needed removal of tech two bpo's. No proof that is except that proof has been given time and time again you guys are broke, jealous and undiserving. I've said it in the past, I'll say it now and I'll say it again later. You guys are pathetic, broke and don't need to be playing anymore simply because you all are just that awful. If you don't like what I've said, too bad....eat it. P.s. Good luck with you BS agenda.
Louis deGuerre Gallente Amicus Morte Shock an Awe	Posted - 2010.04.19 15:29:00 - [104] Originally by: Jovialmadness Evil tech 2 bpo holder checking in. I am done giving complicated responses to you jealous whining little pricks. Not ONCE has a actual proof been given which would result in the needed removal of tech two bpo's. No proof that is except that proof has been given time and time again you guys are broke, jealous and undiserving. I've said it in the past, I'll say it now and I'll say it again later. You guys are pathetic, broke and don't need to be playing anymore simply because you all are just that awful. If you don't like what I've said, too bad....eat it. P.s. Good luck with you BS agenda. Best argument ever ! * emorage has been achieved ! * * thread succesfull ! * Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie
senecti UK Corp	Posted - 2010.04.19 15:38:00 - [105] Edited by: senecti on 19/04/2010 15:41:51 Originally by: Lolobritzita Edited by: Lolobritzita on 15/04/2010 13:24:06 Edited by: Lolobritzita on 15/04/2010 13:23:51 Dear fellow pod pilots, for the obvious reasons, I'll be using an alt for this post, since I'm expecting a lot of flamming and I don't need any in-game issues right now. Quite recently, there was a dev blog posted, regarding the creation of safe spots and the fixing of the related in-game mechanics that will not allow their creation anymore. In this dev-blog, CCP Lemur and CCP Greyscale clearly sate that they do not want to create any situation with unfair advantage of the old players with bookmarks against the new players that do not have them - to quote their words: "This creates a division between older "haves" and newer "have-nots": as a new player coming into the game, the only way you'd be able to reach points outside the system proper would be to acquire a bookmark from an older player." For me this opens the Pandora's Box. If the developers think that the old players having deep space safespots is an unfair advantage against the new players, HOW ABOUT THE T2 BPO's IN THE GAME? ARE THEY NOT AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE FOR THE OLD PLAYERS AGAINST THE NEW? If you agree sign along. If you dont flame as much as you like. PS: I have nothing to do with a well known to these forums character that deals with this issue as well. edit: typos I believe this is an advantage which has come at a cost to most people therefore i don't agree with this at all. Most people who own T2 bpo's now actually purchased them from the original owners and therefore why should they lose out because you can't compete with them? The whole point of the invention was to allow people to make bpc's for T2 without de-valuing the already existing bpo's ingame, which some people waited years to get from agents or made significant investments in buying them. This is also why when you invent a bpc it comes at a cost and gives you a print with negative ME and PE. There is plenty of T2 items out there that don't have BPO's for them such as T2 battleships and frieghters and i see no difference in the build and sell prices of these compared to other items. There is no need to make a change to T2 prints again and the only people who are whining about are individuals who are only thinking about their own wallets. And no i don't have any T2 bpos
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.04.19 15:40:00 - [106] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 19/04/2010 15:41:36 Originally by: Louis deGuerre Originally by: Jovialmadness Evil tech 2 bpo holder checking in. I am done giving complicated responses to you jealous whining little pricks. Not ONCE has a actual proof been given which would result in the needed removal of tech two bpo's. No proof that is except that proof has been given time and time again you guys are broke, jealous and undiserving. I've said it in the past, I'll say it now and I'll say it again later. You guys are pathetic, broke and don't need to be playing anymore simply because you all are just that awful. If you don't like what I've said, too bad....eat it. P.s. Good luck with you BS agenda. Best argument ever ! * emorage has been achieved ! * * thread succesfull ! * Not meant to be an argument. I reached emo rage level months ago due to the endless moronic whining. Thread never had a chance fir success. I am rich the whiners are poor. Bpo's won't be nerfed. The whiners will still come and I'll be here to put them in their lower class place and make sure they stay there diservedly.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.19 16:00:00 - [107] Originally by: Jovialmadness to put them in their lower class place and make sure they stay there diservedly. he admitted finally T2 BPOs should be removed
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.04.19 16:03:00 - [108] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Jovialmadness to put them in their lower class place and make sure they stay there diservedly. he admitted finally T2 BPOs should be removed If one of these gentleman actually accomplishes success in the game I will welcome them to my and others like us status. Until then tech 2 bpo's will not be removed and the whiners will still be eating my scraps.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.19 16:07:00 - [109] Originally by: Jovialmadness Until then tech 2 bpo's will not be removed and the whiners will still be eating my scraps. I dont believe you have any influence on that, you small emo internet businessman
Emporer Norton	Posted - 2010.04.19 16:19:00 - [110] Just allow bpc's to be researced at a pos then no more whining if someone wants to take the time to raise there bpc's me/pe they can but then but are then tieing up slots that could be used for more invention etc

Mal Lokrano Gallente Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.19 16:21:00 - [111] Why is this still an issue? There will likely never be anymore seedings of T2 BPOs in Eve, so it is not likely their share of the market will increase. More and more people will come in looking to invent in the future and as such they will increase the market share for invention. BPOs can build for cheaper but they have a smaller maximum building capability than that of invention. So in essence in in the future T2 BPOs will be less and less important in the production of modules. Besides, Eve isn't fair. I think its about time that this thread got locked as any useful discussion has died and it has turned into an argument on who is wrong or right. ____________________________________________ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.04.19 16:24:00 - [112] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 19/04/2010 16:25:59 Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Jovialmadness Until then tech 2 bpo's will not be removed and the whiners will still be eating my scraps. I dont believe you have any influence on that, you small emo internet businessman jealousy doesn't suit you but in all honesty I wasn't refering to me not allowing them to be removed Einstein. I simply stated a fact I believe to be true that ccp will not be removing them. U mad?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.19 16:34:00 - [113] Originally by: Jovialmadness U mad? I not mad, merely thinking they should be removed from the game.
Wu Marusyn	Posted - 2010.04.19 17:12:00 - [114] I've said it once, I'll say it again IMHO, the fairest fix of the current situation would be: 1. leave T2 bpo's as they are 2. give random chance to get a T2 BPO from invention rather than crappy BPC's only 3. (much less preferred) let the T2 BPC invented to reserve qualities of the T1 BPC that was used for invention I think this is a realistic approach
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.04.19 18:15:00 - [115] Originally by: Joe SMASH Seriously.... Do we need another damn T2 BPO topic? DO WE? Have they been removed, or has there been a mechanism added that allowers newer players a reasonible oppertunity to obtain them? This issue is NOT going to go away simply because the "haves" want it to. It will only go away when it has been resolved. Fix invention to be less of a click fest and to pass PE and ME through. OR Modify invention so there is the possibility of created a new T2 BPO. OR Remove the T2 BPOs that are already in the game. Until one of these 3 happen, the issue if NOT going to go away. Daily or at least weekly, there will be a post pointing out what an EVIL situation T2 BPOs and invention are.
Why Meeeeeh	Posted - 2010.04.19 18:21:00 - [116] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Originally by: Joe SMASH Seriously.... Do we need another damn T2 BPO topic? DO WE? Have they been removed, or has there been a mechanism added that allowers newer players a reasonible oppertunity to obtain them? This issue is NOT going to go away simply because the "haves" want it to. It will only go away when it has been resolved. Fix invention to be less of a click fest and to pass PE and ME through. OR Modify invention so there is the possibility of created a new T2 BPO. OR Remove the T2 BPOs that are already in the game. Until one of these 3 happen, the issue if NOT going to go away. Daily or at least weekly, there will be a post pointing out what an EVIL situation T2 BPOs and invention are. Oh hi, weren't you the one that showed (by your ~~posting~~ trolling in previous threads) that you have 0 experience with, nor knowledge of T2 invention? Stop ~~posting~~ trolling already, idiot.
Red lensman Gallente BlackSky inc. Vanguard.	Posted - 2010.04.19 18:33:00 - [117] Edited by: Red lensman on 19/04/2010 18:36:13 Edited by: Red lensman on 19/04/2010 18:35:26 If this happens all special ships will have to be removed as there no easy way to get them + things like harvester mining drones and a load of other things like mines, snowball launchers and eve will get very boring + all the old skills like the smugling one. So this will never happen as eve is about collecting things for some people and i'd really hate losting all the stuff i've got scattered over in can's all over the place as i'm a magpie and colect stuff
Louis deGuerre Gallente Amicus Morte Shock an Awe	Posted - 2010.04.19 19:47:00 - [118] Originally by: Wu Marusyn Edited by: Wu Marusyn on 19/04/2010 17:32:25 I've said it once, I'll say it again IMHO, the fairest fix of the current situation would be: 1. leave T2 bpo's as they are 2. give random chance to get a T2 BPO from invention rather than crappy BPC's only 3. (much less preferred) let the T2 BPC invented to preserve qualities of the T1 BPC that was used for invention I think this is a realistic approach Just wanna point out that option 2 is really the worst solution for the T2 BPO holders (and I think very unfair to them). As the numbers of owners of T2 BPOs grow : a) T2 BPCs become totally fail. b) The original T2 BPOs lose 99% of their value, leaving their owners in tears as they remember the zillions they paid for them (assuming most of them are 2nd hand by now). Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.04.19 20:36:00 - [119] Originally by: Wu Marusyn IMHO, the fairest fix of the current situation would be: 1. leave T2 bpo's as they are 2. give random chance to get a T2 BPO from invention that is an astronomically low chance (I.e. 1/100000000 per job) where the chance scales to maintain a proper number of BPOs per population to avoid overpopulation of BPOs. 3. let the T2 BPC invented be researched 4. Fix the labslot situation so that people can easily use research slots of other corporations' Empire POSes (for a lot of money) to bring down research time and create a player driven secondary market for research. I think this is a realistic approach Fixed for what I'd do. ----------- Originally by: CCP Whisper Deal with it.
Wu Marusyn	Posted - 2010.04.19 20:38:00 - [120] Originally by: Gamer4liff Fixed for what I'd do. I agree



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