Originally by: Kno'Bah Dhee

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I was going over the minutes from the last CSM meeting, I noticed that the topic of ghost harvesting of datacores popped up. All of the sudden there is a bunch of "Redacted per NDC (non-disclosure agreement)" showing up everywhere
[...]
It makes me wonder if a nerf of T2 BPO's is going to happen.

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Originally by: CCP Dropbear

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rofl

edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.

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Originally by: Barakkus

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So what is ghost datacore harvesting? Is that like the old ghost training where you unsubscribe and continue to get datacores on that account?

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Originally by: Rico Lobo

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Edited by: Rico Lobo on 15/04/2010 21:18:07

Originally by: Barakkus

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So what is ghost datacore harvesting? Is that like the old ghost training where you unsubscribe and continue to get datacores on that account?

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Bascialy.

Theres been some off again on again rumors that they might change RP to a form of LP that you can use to buy BPC and BPOs directly but I dont think there has been anything remotly official on it.

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Contrary to people like Akitas wishes CCP knows that the T2 BPO/INVENTION system is horribly flawed and that the majority of players hate it.

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Originally by: Driven Marcelli

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Contrary to people like Akitas wishes CCP knows that the T2 BPO/INVENTION system is horribly flawed and that the majority of players hate it.

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Part of the reason why its broken is that the T2BPOs still exist in there current form thus causing endless whinethreads about them.

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Originally by: Enthral

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But don't let the facts confuse you. I'll continue to earn billions of isk on this horribly flawed system, and y'all can keep whining about how unfair everything is.

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Contrary to people like Akitas wishes CCP knows that the T2 BPO/INVENTION system is horribly flawed and that the majority of players hate it.

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Contrary to people like Akitas wishes CCP knows that the T2 BPO/INVENTION system is horribly flawed and that the majority of players hate it.

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Originally by: Akita T

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Contrary to people like Akitas wishes CCP knows that the T2 BPO/INVENTION system is horribly flawed and that the majority of players hate it.

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[sarcasm]
Oh, sure, and the way to "fix" it is NOT to buff invention in some way (or slowly buff it in several different ways, eventually up to a point where it would be close to T2 BPO production cost-wise), but instead to leave invention exactly the way it is now (i.e. horribly slow and wasteful manufacture on top of high BPC cost both in ISK and time in case of larger target item volume) and just remove T2 BPOs, right ?
[/sarcasm]

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Originally by: Breaker77

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Contrary to people like Akitas wishes CCP knows that the T2 BPO/INVENTION system is horribly flawed and that the majority of players hate it.

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Confirming that I make billions in profit a month on invention.

CCP I demand that I make trillions per month instead!! Fix it now!!

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Originally by: Professor Leech

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If people are so worked up about t2 why don't they get into t3 instead so that they aren't competing with bpo holders?

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Originally by: Breaker77

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What these same idiots don't understand is that a T2 BPO does not magically increase a players wallet.

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Originally by: Di Mulle

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Originally by: Enthral

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But don't let the facts confuse you. I'll continue to earn billions of isk on this horribly flawed system, and y'all can keep whining about how unfair everything is.

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That is perfectly right.
Some people like to make billions, some people like to moan.

Actually, I even think the latter may leave the game if their wet dream would come true. They will realize they need need new object for whine threadnaughts, some may not be able to adapt.

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Originally by: CCP Whisper

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Deal with it.

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Originally by: Entgo Ditumi

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Tell me, what will you do when there are no more whiners to whine about?

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Originally by: Gamer4liff

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Edited by: Gamer4liff on 16/04/2010 03:51:32
I have been hoarding RP for years now, haven't spent a single on on datacores, in the hope that someday SOMETHING would be done with them beyond datacores. I sure hope this is evidence of such a thing.

EDIT: Or at the very least a massive appreciation of RP value.

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Contrary to people like Akitas wishes CCP knows that the T2 BPO/INVENTION system is horribly flawed and that the majority of players hate it.

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Originally by: Enthral

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[
I've done the math, and on every item I invent, I earn over three times more profit than a T2 BPO owner can on the same item over the same period of time. That includes the cost of datacores, the negative ME, and negative PE.

But don't let the facts confuse you. I'll continue to earn billions of isk on this horribly flawed system, and y'all can keep whining about how unfair everything is.

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Originally by: Misanthra

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Originally by: Enthral

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[
I've done the math, and on every item I invent, I earn over three times more profit than a T2 BPO owner can on the same item over the same period of time. That includes the cost of datacores, the negative ME, and negative PE.

But don't let the facts confuse you. I'll continue to earn billions of isk on this horribly flawed system, and y'all can keep whining about how unfair everything is.

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You must have off numbers...cause evil bpos ruin all markets, even the ones where there are no bpo's and its all invention

Am a T2 owner (bought mine)...and inventor. Prefer my inventions to be honest.

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Originally by: Enthral

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I've done the math, and on every item I invent, I earn over three times more profit than a T2 BPO owner can on the same item over the same period of time. That includes the cost of datacores, the negative ME, and negative PE.

But don't let the facts confuse you. I'll continue to earn billions of isk on this horribly flawed system, and y'all can keep whining about how unfair everything is.

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Originally by: Dana Mownhobbit

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Originally by: Enthral

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I've done the math, and on every item I invent, I earn over three times more profit than a T2 BPO owner can on the same item over the same period of time. That includes the cost of datacores, the negative ME, and negative PE.

But don't let the facts confuse you. I'll continue to earn billions of isk on this horribly flawed system, and y'all can keep whining about how unfair everything is.

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Hi Enthral, could you share an example calculation for one product with us to illustrate this? I lack the background knowledge/imagination to see, why a BPO owner would make less profit. Do you include the buy price for the BPO into the calculation or what is the catch?

I am tinkering with invention/T2 production for some weeks now and done calculations myself. Basicly I summed up the invention costs (data cores, lab) for the average number of invention attempts, and the material costs for the production. All prices were based on current cheapest sell orders with reasonable volumes.
And whatever product I tried, my overall production costs compared to the usual sell prices yielded very little profit or even large losses. I have production efficiency 5, so I can not become any more efficient production-wise. I attribute this mainly to the ME-4 penalty, this is the largest cost factor in my view, also because I have to buy T2 components off the market and have no supply chain which could possibly decrease my opp costs. The market seems largely oversaturated (at least in the amarr empire).
The only possible solution I can imagine right now is to sell in other regions with better prices, allthough this would require deliveries of some 40 jumps (and much more time spent), or delivery to dangerous regions like low sec, where prices are probably higher.

So as long as I am calculating with "opportunity costs" and do not perceive my datacores and minerals from loot as beeing free, it hardly seems to be profitable to do invention/production considering the time needed compared to the income I get from missioning which I could do in the same time while I just sell the minerals and datacores.

What am I doing wrong? Are my calculations too conservative, maybe?

Another question to everyone: Which T2 products have been introduced after the invention change, i.e. there are not BPOs for them? Just curious. Would be interesting to see, if there are any differences in the market "landscape" for these products.

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Originally by: Entgo Ditumi

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You're not factoring in the fact that producers using invented BPCs can produce from many BPCs at once, whereas T2 BPO can only produce from the BPO one job at a time. This the production quantity per hour is much higher for invention.

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Originally by: Dana Mownhobbit

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Originally by: Entgo Ditumi

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You're not factoring in the fact that producers using invented BPCs can produce from many BPCs at once, whereas T2 BPO can only produce from the BPO one job at a time. This the production quantity per hour is much higher for invention.

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Ah ok, so he meant profit per time, I understood it as ROI i.e. profit in % from the investment done.

Would it be feasible for a T2 BPO owner to create copies from his (well researched) BPO and use these for production, where he could produce several jobs in parallel? Or is the copying process so long that the afterward parallel production doesn't payoff the time spent? Just curious...

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