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Swatyy
Evolving Paradigms
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Posted - 2010.04.25 13:44:00 -
[1]
IÆve been away from Eve for a couple of months, and IÆm curious as to why the Amarr battlegrounds have thinned so much. It seems there are few ships larger than destroyers flown by either side with any frequency. This isnÆt a complaint, IÆm just curious.
I schooched over to Nourv to hunt the Tama-OMS pipe, and there is plenty of medium sized gangs rolling around over there. Thus I suspect something odd happened to the Amarrà DidnÆt see anything earth-shattering on the first few pages of W&T so I thought IÆd ask here.
Swatyy
--- Combat Videos: YouTube Latest Video: My Eve |

Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.04.25 14:12:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ralnik on 25/04/2010 14:14:55
There are many reasons..
It started off by the Pervs coming into the Minmatar/Amarr war and using standings exploit to capture about 20 Minmatar systems in about 2 to 3 weeks. Many Amarr were happily supporting the usage of this exploit which ended up starting some rifts with-in the Amarr Militia as many didn't support the exploit usage.
The Minmatar ended up fighting back and re-capturing their systems, then started putting pressure on Amarr systems which soon began to fall. This pretty much helped push the Amarr into a sense of helplessness as far as their RPing and plex war went.
Prior to all this, No.Mercy had pretty much recruited up all the decent Amarr PVPers and FC's and was blobbing around with large BS/Logistics blobs on a daily basis. Due to Minmatar not being interested in fighting 30 BS blobs with 6 Guardians everyday, NM started getting bored and was shooting empire POS's in High sec Amarr space.
Much drama was made about in in the RP forum, but then they finally attacked one of AB-C's alt POS's and blew it up. This caused a internal spat between "No Mercy" and "Abs in the whatever" whom hired NOIR to war dec NM. Both corps left FW about this time taking all their members with them.
Sometime after this AB-C was brought up in a ISK buying scandal and somewhat disappeared off the face of EVE as far as I know. They could be off in some corner somewhere, but I haven't seen them around in quite some time now.
In the end both corp's CEO's let their egos get the better of them and pretty much destroyed their own Militia from with in. The added pressure from the Minmatar taking systems pretty much put the nail in the coffin then shortly after the beloved Provenance began to fall, causing more suffering for the poor Amarrios.
During all this, something also happened with-in PIE which caused that corp to split up and lose many members. I haven't seen much of them around either.
Basically internal drama's and people's ego brought down the Amarr Militia to the point it is today.
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BattleStar Crusader
Amarr Absinthe Brothers Aggressive Dissonance
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Posted - 2010.04.25 14:26:00 -
[3]
Oh Hi there
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Allant Doran
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.04.25 14:26:00 -
[4]
I'm currently in the Amarr militia, i've only been there for the last 40 days or so and i'm only a 5 month old player but there's a certain sense of fun and calm being in the militia when it's numbers aren't massive and there's no real big names or drama involved, none that i'm aware of at least.
I guess what I mean is, reading that summary of how things were, I actually prefer it this way. It means there are fewer people to get to know and, because of that, it's easier to get to know them.
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BattleStar Crusader
Amarr Absinthe Brothers Aggressive Dissonance
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Posted - 2010.04.25 14:38:00 -
[5]
Before the drama the afformentioned corps were the dominant combat corps in the amarr/min war. No.mercy held the US tz and Absinthe Brothers the EU, always battleing for the top spot on the kill board, it's a shame that battle errupted elsewhere.
From what my old friend tell me things are on the look up for the amarr militia.
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.04.25 14:41:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ralnik on 25/04/2010 14:46:21
Originally by: Allant Doran I'm currently in the Amarr militia, i've only been there for the last 40 days or so and i'm only a 5 month old player but there's a certain sense of fun and calm being in the militia when it's numbers aren't massive and there's no real big names or drama involved, none that i'm aware of at least.
I guess what I mean is, reading that summary of how things were, I actually prefer it this way. It means there are fewer people to get to know and, because of that, it's easier to get to know them.
Yes, personally I was having much more fun in FW after all this took place as there were many more small fights to be had. Unfortunately the Minmtar became the blobbers and were running around every day with 30 man gangs ganking everything in sight to the point it was getting hard to find any targets.
I've pretty much been out of the loop the last month or so because of the lack of targets, but the few times I've logged in and seen some big Amarr gangs rolling around. Which means it's likely starting the trend of reversing polarity once again and it will soon be Amarr blobbers everywhere.
(Role reversal seems to happen every few months with-in Amarr/Minmatar front with each side taking their turn at being the blobber FTM)
I just wish people would leave the damn blobs and actually go fight.
Originally by: BattleStar Crusader Before the drama the afformentioned corps were the dominant combat corps in the amarr/min war. No.mercy held the US tz and Absinthe Brothers the EU, always battleing for the top spot on the kill board, it's a shame that battle errupted elsewhere.
From what my old friend tell me things are on the look up for the amarr militia.
TBH, with the war in Providence, I was expecting the Amarr Militia to get flooded with new corps as the Holders were getting kicked out of Providence. Seemed like FW would have bee the perfect spot for them to re-launch a counter attack and get their members some needed PVP experance.
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Farworth
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Posted - 2010.04.25 15:02:00 -
[7]
Originally by: BattleStar Crusader Before the drama the afformentioned corps were the dominant combat corps in the amarr/min war. No.mercy held the US tz and Absinthe Brothers the EU, always battleing for the top spot on the kill board, it's a shame that battle errupted elsewhere.
From what my old friend tell me things are on the look up for the amarr militia.
Well tell them to hurry the eff up. Mimi's have taken to watching romantic comedies at the cineplex in Auga.
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Optos
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Posted - 2010.04.25 15:48:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Optos on 25/04/2010 15:50:05 Edited by: Optos on 25/04/2010 15:49:41 Edited by: Optos on 25/04/2010 15:48:35 Having characters in both Amarr and Minmatar FW (not this one though) for a few months, I would say that Amarr are currently fine, and have decent fleets every night (EU time). They have some decent players and can field the odd cap fleet (Core Impulse, PIE, Amarr Retribution)
Minmatar are struggling with almost no (public) fleets available each night and people crying out for someone to lead them. Seriously. There are certainly a few Minmatar FCs out there that I could name, but there is no public-fleet-every-night thing going like there is the Amarr Militia.
Just my thoughts.
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.25 15:50:00 -
[9]
I think people are getting fed up with all the bugs and exploits plaguing FW, and the plexing and other FW-related mechanics getting old and stale.
FW hasn't received any patch since its release 2 years ago, so it's not strange that most people have seen enough of it. Internal disuptes and corps breaking up and leaving was the nail in the coffin I think. ---
Now running for CSM5. Campaign focus available here |

Optos
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Posted - 2010.04.25 15:53:00 -
[10]
Then get yourself elected as CSM and sort it out!!
Oh.. you are.
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Amarr Supremacist
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Posted - 2010.04.25 16:19:00 -
[11]
One can only hope Ankhesentapemkah is not elected. ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet! |

Jodie Amille
Locus Industries
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Posted - 2010.04.25 16:22:00 -
[12]
Basically gdip, abc and no mercy *****d up all the decent pilots and fc's then left the militia lol.
Gdip disbanded and most joined locus later on and came back to fw.
That's prob the most succinct answer.
And hai dude, welcome back  --------
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Veshta Yoshida
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.25 17:02:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Veshta Yoshida on 25/04/2010 17:03:27 @Swatyy: The exploit wars have stopped and we in the process of slowly but surely clawing back the systems lost during the cheaters era of the war. Ship sizes have not changed. Amarr/Minmatar have always been "lighter" than the Gallente/Caldari since we don't have the big BS blobbing pirate corps around so there is no need to run heavy all the time.
Originally by: Ralnik I've pretty much been out of the loop the last month or so ..
Hahahaha, judging by this thread and practically every other thread you write in regarding the war you have never actually been in the loop - ever.
Originally by: Ralnik It started off by the Pervs coming into the Minmatar/Amarr war and using standings exploit to capture about 20 Minmatar systems in about 2 to 3 weeks...
Standings abuse not exploit, it was petitioned multiple times by both sides as I recall. We plexers were sick to our stomachs when the scope of it dawned on us, everyone else couldn't and still don't care about plexing one way or another. The whole thing was over before most people even knew what the hell was going on which was the main reason for the lack of condemnation by Amarr corps.
Originally by: Ralnik The Minmatar ended up fighting back and re-capturing their ...
Done by using standings abuse, speed tanking, neutral alt tanking (confirmed exploit), timer bug (confirmed exploit) and the usual blobbing with lots of neutral support personnel. You (and the Caldari) killed RP/FW but it had nothing to do with losing systems and everything to do with the complete disregard for the game, decency and rules in general .. Ask yourself why there was not a single "announcement" during your entire campaign, the bad taste in the mouth of the people involved must have been staggering, more so than ours with what the Caldari did.
Originally by: Ralnik Prior to all this..... Both corps left FW about this time taking all their members with them.
Completely unrelated to the Militia and the war as a whole, was a ****ing contest between two corps, happens everyday all over Eve. As much as some of the pilots were/are missed it was a temporary slump like so many others (many pilots have come back under new banners) just like the Minmatar militia was downright anemic after -DARK left with everyone competent in mass-combat. Corporations have used the militias as a recruiting ground since the FW expansion .. not exactly a novelty.
Originally by: Ralnik .. Provenance began to fall, causing more suffering for the poor Amarrios.
Very recent event, came after Minmatar stopped exploiting on an industrial scale (ie. no longer taking systems without challenge) so unrelated, went unnoticed to/for militia except for us RP oriented. Quite a few minmatar pilots used Providence to rat for ISK while it was still civilized so everybody lost.
Originally by: Ralnik During all this, something also happened with-in PIE which caused that corp to split up and lose many members. I haven't seen much of them around either.
We don't do station camping, docking games and limit ourselves to uber-blobs so no you wouldn't have seen us. A handful of people left due to burn-out caused by the perpetual nature of the war .. if that constitutes "splitting up" then I guess you are right .. hahahahaha.
Basically completely off the mark, out of the loop and downright wrong.
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.04.25 17:25:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ralnik on 25/04/2010 17:37:12
Not sure what Veshta is so butt hurt about, but my response was a pretty accurate one from Minmatar POV.
It is funny that you leave PIE out of the standings exploit issues, but you guys were leading the charge and publicly RPing around the exploited system captures and were more than happy to go shoot the bunkers. Meanwhile corps like 1st Praetorian Guard, publicly spoke out about it and refused to take part in the system captures.
As for trying to paint me as a blobber or station camper just shows you clearly have less of a clue than what you claim I do. I've always been outspoken against blobbing and station camping games.
I only join Militia gangs if there is a fight to be had other wise I'm soloing or flying with a corp mate or two. I just haven't been active in FW the last month or so do to having more fun on my main and FW with it's many broken problems has become stale.
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ElCholo
Minmatar Wrecking Shots
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Posted - 2010.04.25 17:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist One can only hope Ankhesentapemkah is not elected.
QFT
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Veshta Yoshida
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.25 18:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ralnik Not sure what Veshta is so butt hurt about, but my response was a pretty accurate one from Minmatar POV.
Then consider my reply a correction to that view.
Originally by: Ralnik It is funny that you leave PIE out of the standings exploit issues, but you guys were leading the charge and publicly RPing around the exploited system captures and were more than happy to go shoot the bunkers...
Was one thread maybe two before the aforementioned scope kicked in. If you can give me one, just one, good way to spin NOT reclaiming systems that makes RP sense then be my guest .. we tried, hard but everything we came up with sounded like heresy. Originally by: Ralnik As for trying to paint me as a blobber or station camper just shows you clearly have less of a clue than what you claim I do. I've always been outspoken against blobbing and station camping games.
Well, it is the only "parts" of the war we don't really participate in and since I have not seen you either .... but if you have been absent then that might be the cause. My apologies if so.
As for the stale part: The first three weeks of this month has seen equal size frig/cruiser/BC fleets butting heads over post-dt plexes with staggering losses on both sides. Has been huge albeit expensive fun with multiple reships competing over single plexes .. what the war started out as .. was like reuniting with a long lost love for me But now the station carrier and 2-3:1 lameness has begun again so fun is going out the window at a rapid pace 
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lookatzebirdie
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Posted - 2010.04.25 18:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Veshta Yoshida Edited by: Veshta Yoshida on 25/04/2010 17:03:27 @Swatyy: The exploit wars have stopped and we in the process of slowly but surely clawing back the systems lost during the cheaters era of the war. Ship sizes have not changed. Amarr/Minmatar have always been "lighter" than the Gallente/Caldari since we don't have the big BS blobbing pirate corps around so there is no need to run heavy all the time.
Originally by: Ralnik I've pretty much been out of the loop the last month or so ..
Hahahaha, judging by this thread and practically every other thread you write in regarding the war you have never actually been in the loop - ever.
Originally by: Ralnik It started off by the Pervs coming into the Minmatar/Amarr war and using standings exploit to capture about 20 Minmatar systems in about 2 to 3 weeks...
Standings abuse not exploit, it was petitioned multiple times by both sides as I recall. We plexers were sick to our stomachs when the scope of it dawned on us, everyone else couldn't and still don't care about plexing one way or another. The whole thing was over before most people even knew what the hell was going on which was the main reason for the lack of condemnation by Amarr corps.
Originally by: Ralnik The Minmatar ended up fighting back and re-capturing their ...
Done by using standings abuse, speed tanking, neutral alt tanking (confirmed exploit), timer bug (confirmed exploit) and the usual blobbing with lots of neutral support personnel. You (and the Caldari) killed RP/FW but it had nothing to do with losing systems and everything to do with the complete disregard for the game, decency and rules in general .. Ask yourself why there was not a single "announcement" during your entire campaign, the bad taste in the mouth of the people involved must have been staggering, more so than ours with what the Caldari did.
Originally by: Ralnik Prior to all this..... Both corps left FW about this time taking all their members with them.
Completely unrelated to the Militia and the war as a whole, was a ****ing contest between two corps, happens everyday all over Eve. As much as some of the pilots were/are missed it was a temporary slump like so many others (many pilots have come back under new banners) just like the Minmatar militia was downright anemic after -DARK left with everyone competent in mass-combat. Corporations have used the militias as a recruiting ground since the FW expansion .. not exactly a novelty.
Originally by: Ralnik .. Provenance began to fall, causing more suffering for the poor Amarrios.
Very recent event, came after Minmatar stopped exploiting on an industrial scale (ie. no longer taking systems without challenge) so unrelated, went unnoticed to/for militia except for us RP oriented. Quite a few minmatar pilots used Providence to rat for ISK while it was still civilized so everybody lost.
Originally by: Ralnik During all this, something also happened with-in PIE which caused that corp to split up and lose many members. I haven't seen much of them around either.
We don't do station camping, docking games and limit ourselves to uber-blobs so no you wouldn't have seen us. A handful of people left due to burn-out caused by the perpetual nature of the war .. if that constitutes "splitting up" then I guess you are right .. hahahahaha.
Basically completely off the mark, out of the loop and downright wrong.
Another deranged rant from FW's bitterest pilot Heh I remember just the sight of a dramiel in Arzad was enough to cause one of ur foaming at the mouth "ZOMG minnies are OPF4GSHIPEXPLOITERS" rants in local. Even ur own militia are embarrassed by you anti macroer anti exploiter 100% PRO RUSSIAN :) |

Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.04.25 18:34:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Ralnik on 25/04/2010 18:36:31 ..
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.25 18:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: lookatzebirdie Another deranged rant from FW's bitterest pilot Heh I remember just the sight of a dramiel in Arzad was enough to cause one of ur foaming at the mouth "ZOMG minnies are OPF4GSHIPEXPLOITERS" rants in local. Even ur own militia are embarrassed by you
Alt much? Me too, me too!
At the time every plex was attempted timer bugged, speed tanked by a neutral or just speed tanked so yes, I cried foul. Luckily for the exploiting horde CCP are complete noobs when it comes to running a "clean" game. I do the same thing when my chess partner tries to take back moves after the fact, when poker opponents try to sneak a peek etc.
PS: Don't quote an entire post unless you actually have something meaningful to say to specifics.
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No Mauk'Ob
Minmatar Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2010.04.25 21:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Veshta Yoshida Edited by: Veshta Yoshida on 25/04/2010 17:03:27
Ask yourself why there was not a single "announcement" during your entire campaign, the bad taste in the mouth of the people involved must have been staggering, more so than ours with what the Caldari did.
I often agree with you, when you aren't blaming everyone for everything, and you do make some fine points. this is not one of them.
while we worked to reclaim systems and push into Amarr space we made the decision that we were not going to 'pull a PIE' and beat our chests over every system gained in the way that you and yours did as the Caldari abused the mechanics to open systems for capture by the amarr. By working i mean senselessly orbiting buttons and wasting ammo on rats for weeks on end. To indicate that all the work we did was abuse driven is an insult. My pilots and I spent hours not abusing any mechanics at all to the point where I swear if I see one more timer in EVE i may go mad. But to hear you speak no one outside of PIE is capable of working together and organizing themselves towards a goal. 
Now that we are back to equilibrium I have had a number of very good fights over plexes and missions in the FW zone.
Oh, You can probably let the speed tank argument die anyday now as I have seen more than a handful of slicers and dramiels pursing this particular 'abuse' that you seem to get all worked up about. and more than one of those was piloted by a PIE member...
-No
------------------------------------------------ Captain No Mauk'Ob Murientor Tribe Navy 1st MCW MURIE is Recruiting! |

Teinyhr
Minmatar Nor'akho Matar
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Posted - 2010.04.25 23:42:00 -
[21]
Excuse me but.
Speed tanking plexes is an exploit/abusing the mechanics?
P.S. I haven't plexed in a while as I just recently returned to the game as well, and when I left Amarr were butchering us left and right generally. ------------------- This is Sig. Launch every Sig. For Great Justice. |

Ospie
Core Impulse
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Posted - 2010.04.26 04:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Teinyhr Excuse me but.
Speed tanking plexes is an exploit/abusing the mechanics?
P.S. I haven't plexed in a while as I just recently returned to the game as well, and when I left Amarr were butchering us left and right generally.
Nothing's wrong with speed tanking, though it does make it pretty hard to gank someone in a fw mission if you don't catch them on gate / warpin. It wasn't actually mentioned as an exploit anyway.
As far as amarr militia goes we're pretty active, particulary during the EU TZ and are increasing the size of our US TZ too, however our US TZ is more of a pirate wing than FW so most of its fights tend to be outside FW area.
As for the comments about various AB-C / no mercy pilots coming back under new banners we've got several former AB-C flying under our name now, so that's certainly a valid point.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.26 07:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: No Mauk'Ob ..while we worked to reclaim systems and push into Amarr space we made the decision that we were not going to 'pull a PIE' and beat our chests over every system gained..
How very droll and more likely a falsehood than anything else. Why false? Because no militia has that kind of coherence and/or top down leadership which leaves just utter disgust for what was happening as the reason for people not spamming threads.
There were, as already stated, one or two threads before the realisation of what was happening when the Caldari did their thing hit, just as you had one or two threads posted before they were abandoned.
Originally by: Teinyhr Speed tanking plexes is an exploit/abusing the mechanics?...
Exploit no, abuse yes. Abuse meaning against the spirit of the game, like taking a short-cut in a race. Please note that speed tanking means staying in capture range for the duration of the timer (warping, running to range etc. = failed speed tanking).
Just as the Caldari abused the weak coding/mechanics using standings to capture plexes unmolested, speed-tanking achieves the same thing by the same means. Only real difference is that one is temporary (until standings tank) while the other can be used continuously. It is used by all sides (Gall/Cald/Min/Amarr) but to varying degrees due to the massive differences in navy capabilities .. if there are Amarr that are able to do it more power to them, although I seriously doubt its doable in a Slicer (there is no T1 tank that can hold up to TP+Missile spam for the duration of a timer).
PS: Republic Navy plex rats have started webbing which is new, has Amarr Navy rats started doing the same?
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David Devant
Gallente CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.04.26 08:50:00 -
[24]
OK. Gonna start with some *****iness. Whilst I agree that current mechanics favor us lot, Jesus Christ you can't n half moan can't you? When it comes down to it we took systems by winning good fights at key moments, breaking guardians and smashing harbies, not by speed tanking.
Meanwhile, the part of fw that most of us care about, the evening time mash-ups, well they've been conducted with relative parity over the last couple of months. Locus and Core have been posing difficult questions in the Euro zone, taking risks with some sexy ships. Basically, I'd say these are good times for FW.
Keep the posts coming, as abusive as you like, we need the publicity!
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Matar Hari
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Posted - 2010.04.26 09:29:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida PS: Republic Navy plex rats have started webbing which is new, has Amarr Navy rats started doing the same?
Minmatar NPCs now have both their racial ewar types? SHOCKING! Now if the gallente NPCs would start warp scrambling all would be well.
Also Amarr NPCs neut. Trying to perma-run a speedmod and a repper while being neuted is hardly plain sailing.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.26 10:26:00 -
[26]
Certain Caldari plex NPC's neut too 
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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2010.04.26 11:34:00 -
[27]
Personally, I've been finding FW much better lately, a couple of months back, I had a really hard time finding targets but now, I'm back to trying to dodge amarr blobs like when I started in FW. I know I'd prefer too many targets and a hopeless fight rather than no fight. 
The post-DT plexing in Arzad/Ezzara has seen some awesome fights and that's really been a lot of fun recently. True, sometimes we'll have twice amarr numbers, sometimes they'll have twice our numbers. That's just the way it goes. These are usually smaller fights in terms of ship size (i.e. frigs and cruisers) but are a ton of fun.
Locus and Corim (along with BANE, lol) are providing us with good BS and cap fights as well. Indeed, I think that Amarr currently have the edge on us in this area.
The only real imbalance I see is in soloers. Minmatar just seem to have a lot more solo pilots. I don't know if that's just because of my TZ or what but I'll always see other minmatar flying around when I'm roaming but rarely bump into amarr, especially amarr that actually want to fight.
All-in-all, I think it's a pretty good time to be in militia.  --------------------------------------
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Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.26 11:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: David Devant
[...] Keep the posts coming, as abusive as you like, we need the publicity!
Personally I think what you need more is some new content. To keep the interest going for more people... IMHO. But then I wouldn't hang my hopes to high for that. 
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.04.26 12:15:00 -
[29]
Tbh i think amarr-minnie front is pretty good atm. Yes, fw mechanics sucks little bit with all that plexing, bugs, unbalanced /and ******ed/ npcs, no rewards etc., but it still brings us fights so...
Blobbing? Yes. Both sides, depends on timezone. Big bs fights? Yes. But less of them than in time of abc, nm or gdip in amarr militia. Small to med gangs? Yes, but corp ops usually. Solo? Yes, definitely, just watch intel and dont take obvious baits. Spais and neut scouts? Ofc. Neut boosters and logis? Yes. Good pvpers? Yes, both sides have them. Same with noobs who was told that fw is good introduction into pvp. Its fun? Yes, most of the time is.
Want to enjoy it? Then dont take it so serious.
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Graelyn
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2010.04.26 12:50:00 -
[30]
I have been apart of the Amarr Militia for a long time. I have worked with all the major players extensively. I have watched the destructive patterns emerge. I have observed the spiraling conflicts that tore the Militia's strongest forces apart. I left myself in disgust. I am back. Because the militia is back. It took a lot of time, but those left behind picked up the pieces. The militia is strong once again. The militia is taking the fight to the enemy again. The militia is taking systems again. I was inspired. Once again I will be there to support these brave pilots. And so should you. 
-------
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