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Hippopotamus Rex	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:30:00 - [61] Edited by: Hippopotamus Rex on 06/05/2010 15:32:37 Originally by: Machete Visor Clearly i can choose the size of the fund at my own discretion, there is no reason to debate it. Then why did you drop it down to 2b? Explain that move. If the size was always discretionary, as you seem to think, there was never any need to specify the size. Yet you did, and then you lowered the amount to attract interest and then raised it after you gained that interest. Of course there is reason to debate it. You changed the rules already. You said a "maximum" of 2b. What does maximum mean to you? You laid out the terms of agreement to potential investors in your initial posts. You took reservations based on a maximum of 2b. In fact, Taram stated he wasn't comfortable investing unless you lowered that limit and others probably have their limits too. Are all your terms subject to change at your discretion? Now if you want to change any of the terms prior to receiving any isk, be my guest. If you change the terms and state it clearly as so, then people can choose for themselves. But you didn't so this. You stated a maximum, accepted more and did not announce the change in terms. That would be a big red flag for me. Which is compounded by the fact that when this is pointed out, you do not address it, you dismiss it. No need to debate it, right? Which leads me to another red flag of mine: his arrogance. Personally, I think the biggest risk aside from scamming is investing is arrogant people. As far as they're concerned, they know better than you and can make decisions on your behalf - which often involves changing terms. Think of Ebank. Or they get frustrated at the criticism and give up or "punish" investors - and given his comments in the audit thread, I wouldn't be surprised if this happens. Originally by: Machete Visor I didnt ask or beg for ISK before the report was released There are two posters above you who confirm you DID ask. Perhaps that was not your intent, but you could have just said you worded it poorly. Now I haven't read the mail, but your investors have and they can decide whether you asked for the isk and whether your current denial of asking for it is false. tl;dr: He changed terms without approval, said he's allowed to. So be prepared that if you invest he may do it again. EDIT: And like I said before, what is the point of the "Waitlist"?
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:36:00 - [62] Originally by: Hippopotamus Rex Which leads me to another red flag of mine: his arrogance. Personally, I think the biggest risk aside from scamming is investing is arrogant people. As far as they're concerned, they know better than you and can make decisions on your behalf - which often involves changing terms. Think of Ebank. Or they get frustrated at the criticism and give up or "punish" investors - and given his comments in the audit thread, I wouldn't be surprised if this happens. Calling it now. Dodgy expansions, rabid responses to criticism and questions, and eventual finger-pointing meltdown.
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:40:00 - [63] Edited by: Machete Visor on 06/05/2010 15:41:23 LA - the answers to your question on current size is in the original post. The current expected NAV is 4.2B, with a 1.5B commitment from me. Yes, that is 2.7B in investor funds.
flakeys DRAMA Inc OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:42:00 - [64] Originally by: Machete Visor Clearly i can choose the size of the fund at my own discretion, there is no reason to debate it. OUCH , such a statement would let me withdraw a reservation immediatly.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:09:00 - [65] Originally by: Machete Visor varo jan has drafted the audit report. I cant control the timing of its release, and I assume he is very busy. Any way, thanks for being patient, the audit is almost done. I do have significant contract trades, which makes it a bit tougher on the auditor. For the sake of clarity, I sent the draft report, excluding financial information, on one account to Machete for his comments. He has responded, answering some additional questions I raised. I was given API keys to his second account today. Yes, I am very busy. The audit is not almost done, it will take longer than originally anticipated, and my fees will go up. There are two accounts, a number of BPs to verify, and significant contract trades (100+).
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:12:00 - [66] fair enough, let me know the new fees.
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:20:00 - [67] Edited by: Estel Arador on 06/05/2010 16:20:11 Originally by: Varo Jan I was given API keys to his second account today. I was under the impression that there was only one account, but looking back I see that Machete never said that and that he cleverly dodged a question regarding other accounts (asked by Lord Arbelast). Having 3 character slots empty (only three characters are mentioned in the "Full Disclosure of Main and Alts") seems like an awful waste for a trader. Free jumpclone service\|Now 1092 stations!
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:27:00 - [68] updating the first post to be more clear.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:31:00 - [69] Originally by: Estel Arador I was under the impression that there was only one account, but looking back I see that Machete never said that and that he cleverly dodged a question regarding other accounts (asked by Lord Arbelast). Having 3 character slots empty (only three characters are mentioned in the "Full Disclosure of Main and Alts") seems like an awful waste for a trader. Machete has three characters in one account - the three he mentioned in his OP. He has one character in the second account. In fairness, he did tell me originally without prompting that he had the extra account, and described it as a trial account, which it is no longer. I should have asked for the API keys at that point.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Silvermane Enterprises	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:44:00 - [70] Due to circumstances both regarding and not regarding this IPO, I'm afraid I will have to withdraw my reservation. I wish OP good luck going forward and hope this is exceedingly successful and profitable for all parties involved. Regarding high-sec mining: Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr 3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
Hippopotamus Rex	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:47:00 - [71] Originally by: Machete Visor Edited by: Machete Visor on 06/05/2010 15:57:25 I do not believe any of my responses have been any more arrogant than the people running around yelling and screaming, leveling personal attacks because I am a new guy with a decent write-up. That is all fine, this is a message board and a game. But the idea I would want to punish my investors is ludicrious - they are basically the only group NOT upset at the moment. Its this kind of embellishment and victimization that I've seen often before and it usually doesn't end well. As for punishing your investors, I'm not saying to intend on punishing them right now. But how about when you come back in a few weeks and try to raise 7b more and your current investors say "Hold on there a minute." You tell them you're the Decider and its not up for debate, they say it sounds like a scam, you get offended and decide that you don't have to take that "abuse" or at least you should be compensated for it and you keep their isk. It does happen.
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.05.06 17:23:00 - [72] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 06/05/2010 17:24:43 Either your word is good, or it isn't. Stating that you lowered the bond size in response to feedback then a few days later going up over the size you lowered it to "Because I damn well feel like it" is not going to inspire confidence. Had I not already left this fund I'd be leaving it now and not looking back. Edit: PS: Stop comparing this to an actual fund in RL. In "RL", since you keep bringing it up, there are legal repercussions to cheating a fund. Ask Bernie about them. In EVE there are no such repercussions so the risk/reward involved is much much differernt. Stop trying to compare a fund in EVE to a fund in RL. They are not even remotely the same. Market Alerts Mailing List
Empress Shai	Posted - 2010.05.06 18:50:00 - [73] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Empress Shai Edited by: Empress Shai on 05/05/2010 20:02:07 Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Empress Shai Rule of thumb: don't spend/invest/fly what you can't afford to loose RULE OF THUMB OMG RULE OF THUMB Reported for sexism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb I can post a link also!!! Is this the intended use of how I said it? Nope, but interesting read, bro! BRO? OMG! BRO? Bro as in brother as in african american? Reported for racism! I think this is fun, and am hoping to see what I do next! It's like a choose your own adventure!!!
Grohalmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.05.07 07:57:00 - [74] Sorry M8, I signed up for this experiment when it was listed at 2 billion. Changing the fund amount midway through means I have to withdraw my support just as abruptly. At least I got your money train started eh? Good luck in your trading career.
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.05.07 08:15:00 - [75] Originally by: Grohalmatar Sorry M8, I signed up for this experiment when it was listed at 2 billion. Changing the fund amount midway through means I have to withdraw my support just as abruptly. At least I got your money train started eh? Good luck in your trading career. No problem, I have updated the top to reflect current investors. Still targeting 4.2B in total (2.7B in client assets) because that matches the number of shares issued. From what I have searched thusfar, there is no way to cancel shares. Please let me know if otherwise.
Dalden V Blue Lounge Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2010.05.07 08:51:00 - [76] Originally by: Machete Visor However, I reduced the maximum 'ask' to 2B based on these recommendations. I also set the minimum investment amount at 50M. That gives people an opportunity to invest with me and see how it works out, without very much risk. Also, 2B should be a low enough number that no one feels like I would just walk away with it. I already have about 2B. I reserved based on these conditions. You have altered these conditions and I'm therefore withdrawing my reservation.
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.05.07 09:45:00 - [77] Edited by: Machete Visor on 07/05/2010 09:51:26 Originally by: Dalden V Originally by: Machete Visor However, I reduced the maximum 'ask' to 2B based on these recommendations. I also set the minimum investment amount at 50M. That gives people an opportunity to invest with me and see how it works out, without very much risk. Also, 2B should be a low enough number that no one feels like I would just walk away with it. I already have about 2B. I reserved based on these conditions. You have altered these conditions and I'm therefore withdrawing my reservation. Just for clarity, the 2B is a 3rd party number, so the fund size was 3.5B. Everyone committed at 3.5B. Before withdrawals, the fund size was 4.2B. I recognize the sizing has been confusing and I believe some have interpreted the fund size at 4.2B in client money. It was 2.7B in client money, or 700M over the amount I anticipated. However I will rectify that. No problem on decommitting. The fund is now down to net assets of 3.350B (or 1.850B client money). Therefore, there is 150M of client money still open to get to 2B, although one investor has already expressed interest and I am reserving his spot. If he takes up the 150M, the fund size will be 3.5B, with 1.5B from me... or 2B in 3rd party money, as described in the front page.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.05.07 11:39:00 - [78] Originally by: Empress Shai Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Empress Shai Edited by: Empress Shai on 05/05/2010 20:02:07 Originally by: Ji Sama RULE OF THUMB OMG RULE OF THUMB Reported for sexism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb I can post a link also!!! Is this the intended use of how I said it? Nope, but interesting read, bro! BRO? OMG! BRO? Bro as in brother as in african american? Reported for racism! I think this is fun, and am hoping to see what I do next! It's like a choose your own adventure!!! PYRAMID QUOTING OMG PYRAMID QUOTING. Reported
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.05.07 14:42:00 - [79] Originally by: Machete Visor I believe some have interpreted the fund size at 4.2B in client money. I believe you're looking for other causes than the simple fact that you (not the investors) screwed up when accepting reservations. Free jumpclone service\|Now 1092 stations!
Empress Shai	Posted - 2010.05.07 16:01:00 - [80] Edited by: Empress Shai on 07/05/2010 16:05:09 Edited by: Empress Shai on 07/05/2010 16:03:14 @Ji Sama: This is gonna sound dumb, but thank you for having a sense of humor in this section of the forums, it seems a rare place to find a good one --- I intend this for the sake of honestly asking: How best do you become established than to just step into a domain? What I mean is, if he (Machete) is an unknown, and has yet to do any investing short of what he is trying now, how do you succeed except for people taking a chance on you? I am asking this because I am just asking, and I know it is likely a moronic question, and I am VERY appreciative of the critisizm being shown (cathedral vs bazaar). I mean I am glad in that you all kind of act as zealous watchers of peers to keep the bad apples out, or atleast the unclever ones. I have taken the risk, and hope no scam occurs, albeit a bit green (under experienced), but is there a rule of ... NOT thumb but common sense to watch out for? Like a good blog post that is ideal to at least know when someone isn't on the up and up? Just a query, and I am still happy with the risk taken on my behalf with Machete, and find this all interesting. Good accountability in my opinion, which I find refreshing for this game.
Cista2 Stormhawk Research and Development	Posted - 2010.05.07 16:18:00 - [81] I am amazed at the lengths people will go to try and bury a public offering while it is still pending audit. ----------------------- Join "Signatures" channel - the chatroom for traders
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.05.07 16:32:00 - [82] Originally by: Empress Shai What I mean is, if he (Machete) is an unknown, and has yet to do any investing short of what he is trying now, how do you succeed except for people taking a chance on you? Machete was doing absolutely awesome on this offering actually.... it wasn't until he started accepting more than the 2bil he lowered his asking rate to that red flags started going up from the community. His responses to those red flags made matters much much worse. Instead of saying 'oops I messed up, sorry about that.' he went off on a rampage about how he can change the terms of the bond anytime he wants because it's "his bond". This threw even more red flags up. Initially he was handling it perfectly. He had an excellent writeup and business plan posted and listened to community feedback and lowered his bond offering to something more reasonable for a character of his age, reputation etc. It wasn't till he started trying to sneak it back up over the 2bil mark that he ran into problems. So, in answer to the question: Machette did everything right, until he started trying to accept more money than he had agreed to with his investors. Market Alerts Mailing List
Corcyrus Endymion	Posted - 2010.05.07 16:38:00 - [83] Originally by: Empress Shai Edited by: Empress Shai on 07/05/2010 16:05:09 Edited by: Empress Shai on 07/05/2010 16:03:14 @Ji Sama: This is gonna sound dumb, but thank you for having a sense of humor in this section of the forums, it seems a rare place to find a good one --- I intend this for the sake of honestly asking: How best do you become established than to just step into a domain? What I mean is, if he (Machete) is an unknown, and has yet to do any investing short of what he is trying now, how do you succeed except for people taking a chance on you? I am asking this because I am just asking, and I know it is likely a moronic question, and I am VERY appreciative of the critisizm being shown (cathedral vs bazaar). I mean I am glad in that you all kind of act as zealous watchers of peers to keep the bad apples out, or atleast the unclever ones. I have taken the risk, and hope no scam occurs, albeit a bit green (under experienced), but is there a rule of ... NOT thumb but common sense to watch out for? Like a good blog post that is ideal to at least know when someone isn't on the up and up? Just a query, and I am still happy with the risk taken on my behalf with Machete, and find this all interesting. Good accountability in my opinion, which I find refreshing for this game. Look at from this angle: What does someone have to lose by scamming? If the character is say a year old, it means that by scamming the character in question can be deemed tarnished and as such the potential loss would amount to 12plex price=3.6B. Ofcourse this is not entirely correct since the arm of the MD is not as long as some might hope, but it works as a rule of , dare I say, thumb. Add in these costs for alts as well, to attain a relatively save total investment cap. Also check for corp/alliance history, tells you a lot. Someone not in a corp or in a corp with a bad reputation or with a lot of corp hopping can be deemed as a higher risk. Obviously the write up itself has to be decent, but then again a proper scammer will* make sure that part of his/her scam is solid as a rock. If however the presented business plan does not make sense, or the required investment is not in lieu with said business plan, this can be indicative of either a scam or a poor thought out business plan. Neither of which make for proper investing. Next up is simple rep, is it a known MD participant? It is a known forum *****? These factors do not eliminate risk (look at the our friend Ricdic), but can add tiny green or major red flags. What else can I think of... mmmm..
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.05.07 16:53:00 - [84] Originally by: Empress Shai I intend this for the sake of honestly asking: How best do you become established than to just step into a domain? What I mean is, if he (Machete) is an unknown, and has yet to do any investing short of what he is trying now, how do you succeed except for people taking a chance on you? That's difficult to answer and I think for first-time offerings many investors just rely on their gut feeling. It's difficult to dissect this but when you have read MD for a few months you develop a pretty good intuition which people will be liked by MD and which won't - so there has to be some common patterns. A business manager who is open in his communications and knows what he wants but is willing to make reasonable adjustments is generally a good sign. A business manager who is willing to change every aspect of his offering just so he gets investment is usually a bad sign. One thing that gets way too often neglected is the presence of a decent business plan. The business manager doesn't have to disclose it to everyone but it has to be there and it better should be more than "buy low, sell high". A business plan provides at least some platform for discussion (viable size of the offering, possible interest rates) and shows some research and understanding on the part of the business manager. I would strongly suggest to new players trying to get their hands on non-trivial amounts of ISK (say > 1b) to come up with a decent business plan and ask 1-3 MD regulars for comments (just ask in scc-lounge or Signatures - it's unlikely they will "steal" your ideas and even if they do an additional competitor shouldn't destroy your business, otherwise your plan is extremely risky and probably not well thought through) before even mentioning the upcoming offering to the public. Having a few weeks of posting history in MD under your belt before asking for ISK is also a good plus because it allows your potential investors to get acquainted to you and get a feeling for your personality. Here is a great example of how to do things right. Doesn't use any of the predefined templates, has to be convinced to accept an audit, asks for way too much ISK (compared to his character age), several regulars raise all kind of (valid) reg flags - but at the end of the day the fact that the business manager has a convincing business plan, has a good track record verifiable via audit and answers the concerns in a very reasonable manner (he doesn't try to prove what he cannot prove but does his best to alleviate valid concerns) are much more important than the risk profile as determined with a checklist.
Empress Shai	Posted - 2010.05.07 17:10:00 - [85] Appreciated, good posts explaining allot. Veteran of sorts (was gone away a long time), but still enjoy that EVE in big enough for new depths to be discovered. By the way, I appreciate the clarity and depth you all address your concerns and thoughts. It is evidence to me that there are thinkers in the bunch. It also makes me want to be smarterer (In that it challenges and teaches something I would have never had occur to me). Fake edit: all misspellings on my part are intentional, because I am too lazy to spell check.
Helmh0ltz Blue is the New Red	Posted - 2010.05.07 18:20:00 - [86] Guys, guys, let's think about this. 1. The man makes 2bil trading. He's like "Damn I good at this." 2. Man thinks that he could use 8 bil effectively puts up an offer for 6.5 bil in investor money. 3. Man gets feedback that he should lower bond size. Lowers it to suggested bond size of 2 bil. 4. Man gets 2.7 bil in reservations, decides to hell with it, 2 bil is just an arbitrary number and if I can raise 2.7 why refuse the investors? 5. MD proceeds to flame him to death on changing bond size. Which he shouldn't of done but he did and you can't expect someone who isn't familiar with M.D. to know everything. Tl;dr My own personal little gut says this isn't a scam. I wish Machete luck with his bond and urge him to A. Relax and try to approach these criticisms genuinely and without posturing. B. Not to scam, because then I'll be wrong. ====== Your signature is freakishly huge for this forum. Please resize according to the forum rules, thanks. Shadow.
Rykker Bow Gallente Northstar Cabal OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.07 18:25:00 - [87] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton That's difficult to answer and I think for first-time offerings many investors just rely on their gut feeling. It's difficult to dissect this but when you have read MD for a few months you develop a pretty good intuition which people will be liked by MD and which won't - so there has to be some common patterns. A business manager who is open in his communications and knows what he wants but is willing to make reasonable adjustments is generally a good sign. A business manager who is willing to change every aspect of his offering just so he gets investment is usually a bad sign. Having a few weeks of posting history in MD under your belt before asking for ISK is also a good plus because it allows your potential investors to get acquainted to you and get a feeling for your personality.[/quote I think you hit the nail on the head here. How do you become established? Easy, contribute to the community. Post your opinions, root out corruption and make suggestions which will show MD that you're serious about trading and not trying to get away with a quick buck. This in itself would normaly screen out the scammers. Scammers in general will approach MD trying to get an acceptable amount of isk for the least amount time needed. Becoming part of the community, making contacts and building friendships weeks or even months in advance of asking for public money is a good indicator that you're not intending to scam. Of course this isn't the rule and it could happen. I began posting because I enjoyed discussing the market and trade in general and it was a help in bringing my bonds to competion smoothly. Also, know what you want to do before diving in. Make your decisions before hand and stick to them regardless of your own personal feelings. Taking the community advice and lowering your bond amount was a good move, raising it up again was a bad one. Personal feelings should not impose on your economic/business decisions. For every business action, think what the community reaction will be prior to making that action. Show a business face at all times. The trolls out here are bigger than life (for good reason) and will test your business persona. If you rage, you lose.
slipperywhenhappy	Posted - 2010.05.07 18:37:00 - [88] I don't know my self I think to many people are jumping up and down raising red flag's yet my self I am waiting until the audit is done before I choose weather to stay or leave. He has did a few things to raise a few eye brows but for the most part he has been trying hard to answer all questions and changing his 1st proposal for the community was a smart move on his part though when he accepted over the 2 B was a error on his part as well
flakeys DRAMA Inc OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.07 18:39:00 - [89] Edited by: flakeys on 07/05/2010 18:40:55 Originally by: Helmh0ltz 5. MD proceeds to flame him to death on changing bond size. Which he shouldn't of done but he did and you can't expect someone who isn't familiar with M.D. to know everything. He didn't get flamed to death for going over the bond size , he got asked a question if and why he had gone over it.His response to this question was what triggered a lot of negative critique and from my personal viewpoint it was only fair that happened.It showed little to no respect to those who gave him their trust and place their isk in his wallet. Offcourse it allways is a learning curve for people who try to launch an IPO/BOND wich unfortunatly in MD can be harsh at times but that is just the way it's played. Originally by: Cista2 I am amazed at the lengths people will go to try and bury a public offering while it is still pending audit. As i said above here cista , the audit at this point doesn't have much to do with why people are giving negative comments.
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.05.07 19:05:00 - [90] Originally by: Helmh0ltz Guys, guys, let's think about this. 1. The man makes 2bil trading. He's like "Damn I good at this." 2. Man thinks that he could use 8 bil effectively puts up an offer for 6.5 bil in investor money. 3. Man gets feedback that he should lower bond size. Lowers it to suggested bond size of 2 bil. 4. Man gets 2.7 bil in reservations, decides to hell with it, 2 bil is just an arbitrary number and if I can raise 2.7 why refuse the investors? 4a. Man gets asked, by both investors and members of the community why he's altering the bond after having already taken reservations. 4b. Man response by basically telling everyone 'it's my bond and I'll change it how I like whenever I like'. 5. MD proceeds to flame him to death on changing bond size with no good reason and having an attitude about the bond that reduces their trust in him as a bond holder. Many point out that he's degrading their trust in him. Several pull out of the IPO because they signed up for one bond size and he's altering the deal. Tl;dr My own personal little gut says this isn't a scam. I wish Machete luck with his bond and urge him to A. Relax and try to approach these criticisms genuinely and without posturing. B. Not to scam, because then I'll be wrong. Fixed it for you. Market Alerts Mailing List

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