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Lady Alunae	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:10:00 - [1] As a new player some four months ago, I found EVE a fund game where the possibilities seemed endless. Lately, I've had come to the stark realization, however, that the basic nature of the game is very much like a pyramid scheme... and I, like any new or relatively new player, is on the bottom with no way out. The fact is, the game is rigged to favor certain activities such as suicide piracy in high sec. When you can make a profit of 150+mil in a single attack on a hulk and the maximum insurance only covers 20% or less of the hull price... it makes it abundantly clear that the designers of the game have not only a preference for the criminal element, but also make it much more lucrative for longer-term players to pick on newer players than to actually engage in the sort of low-sec, high action activity which this game advertises. That said... this game is a pyramid scheme, where new players are forced to act as entertainment for long-timers and who have no hope of getting the skill levels needed to retaliate on an even footing... unless you consider a few years of paid game time reasonable. So my question is, with no realistic way for new players to level the playing field, at least in PvP terms... what's the point of buying this game and paying just so I can provide a moving target for players who I can never even hope to match? And I make this question in all seriousness... I really don't see the logic and I think CCP should be much more truthful in their advertising.
Napro Caldari Buccaneers of New Eden death from above..	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:18:00 - [2] stuff
Musical Fist Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:19:00 - [3] Originally by: Napro stuff This is so not my main
Plocsk	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:21:00 - [4] Cue some responses with convincing arguments on why what you are saying is not really the case, and you should keep playing. BUT THEY JUST WANT YOU TO STAY TO BE GANKED BY THEM
Marquis Zenas I.X Research	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:21:00 - [5] Stealth suicide ganking whine detected - call the WHHHAAAAAABulance -------------------------- Sigless
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:22:00 - [6] you could legally buy skilled character? or join player corp for strength in numbers? or be smart and devious and learn how to dance solo around big nasty obstacles? or... oh, options, what are you going to do... ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel
Cat o'Ninetails Caldari Rancer Defence League	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:25:00 - [7] something must be done about pirates! x Have you voted Cat today? My Facebook!
Zaqar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:25:00 - [8] Eve Online GAME OVER Your score: 0 Please insert Ç15 to try again
Brolly Caldari Gangrel Mining and Security	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:25:00 - [9] Ahhh, this oldy, surprised you hadn't seen this question yet. It all comes down to specialisation in specific areas, so that you may be as good as others. We all had to start somewhere, if anything, you new guys have it easy with your sped up training, extra implants and learning skills. Granted, you wont be able to get into a carrier in 4 months, but neither could us oldies. Hell, in our time all we had were indy's, frigs, cruisers and battleships. If you train up for a certain role and become skilled in it, you can be better than the vets. Anyone can fly a frig, but not everyone is proficient in doing so. Just because you get ganked in hi sec, doesn't make the game bad, maybe you need to change tactics, ships or layout.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:25:00 - [10] play smart, if you see a bunch of combat ships warping into your area or mission and baiting you or look like they going to target you get out. many will try to lock you if you got drines out and if you got target back clicked on see if they can get your drones or you to accidently shoot them. move around, find less used systems, dont fly what you cant afford to loose, if anything looks too good to be true it probably is. using your brain will be the biggest help in not getting pwned. finding a good corp will also help you if they a good corp, eve university is a good place to start for new players will give you a ton of hints and introductions to various parts of eve including pvp. beyond that try to find a corp that is organized and helps each other and is not just out for themselves, try and find people you trust to watch your back, you can find them if you look hard enough. all that said nothing will be 100% effective if someone really wants you dead. but you can limit your vulnerability if you play things smart keep an eye on your overview and if something does not feel right get out.
Lady Alunae	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:26:00 - [11] I wouldn't have an issue if I had some reasonable way of exacting revenge for the loss of a ship, but the game is effectively rigged to prevent that from occurring, thus protecting the long time players from any loss at the expense of newer players who simply have to tolerate whatever happens to them... and pay rl cash for it to boot.
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Lady Alunae So my question is, with no realistic way for new players to level the playing field, at least in PvP terms... (a) That's a false assumption. (b) You are seriously complaining that a Hulk, which is the "end-game" mining ship, doesn't hold it's own "in PvP terms"?!? (Of course you are not seriously complaining, you are trolling.) Originally by: Lady Alunae what's the point of buying this game and paying just so I can provide a moving target for players who I can never even hope to match? (c) If this game indeed suits people who gank newer players, the longer you stay the more newer players you can gank. Simple really. Originally by: Lady Alunae I think CCP should be much more truthful in their advertising. (d) "Truth in advertising"? When is the last time any advertisement was true? Are you really that gullible? (Or that bad a troll?) Free jumpclone service\|Now 1092 stations!
Dan O'Connor Cerberus Network Dignitas.	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Lady Alunae TL;DR - Newbies are cannon fodder, long time players benefit from it, and someone did something mean to me!! You say EVE has a Pyramid scheme. That would imply that there must be someone ultimate at the top of it all... Which - at least I think so - there isn't... Or I don't perceive it that way. ________________________ Apply \| Channel CBSN Lounge
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:32:00 - [14] revenge is getting some friends and killing them back. or simply denying them the kill in the first place. you can always get a corp gang and bait them out. revenge is a dish best served by cloaked ships. seriously tho ccp allows you to police yourself, learn how they work, kill rights, corp gangs, etc, and learn how to play with other people. thats the mmo part of eve.
Plocsk	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:33:00 - [15] Originally by: Lady Alunae I wouldn't have an issue if I had some reasonable way of exacting revenge for the loss of a ship, but the game is effectively rigged to prevent that from occurring, thus protecting the long time players from any loss at the expense of newer players who simply have to tolerate whatever happens to them... and pay rl cash for it to boot. Here's a hint: Don't try and go after players who are older than you, go pick on other noobs. It's like a food chain.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Lady Alunae The fact is, the game is rigged to favor certain activities such as suicide piracy in high sec. Since you're new, you must be completely unaware of the repeated changes that have made highsec suicide ganking increasingly difficult and/or costly. Heck, there was a time CONCORD didn't even exist. Then, CONCORD was actually tankable. After that, they kept buffing their damage, they kept buffing their response time, they kept adding new insta-neutralizing-of-ganker effects to their arsenal, and so on. Quote: When you can make a profit of 150+mil in a single attack on a hulk If you can make that profit, the Hulk pilot was an IDIOT. Let me repeat that : if you have enough expensive gear on your highsec Hulk so that suicide-gankers can make 150+ mil profit, YOU DESERVE TO GET SUICIDE-GANKED. Quote: and the maximum insurance only covers 20% or less of the hull price Wait 12 more days, this is changing. Quote: it makes it abundantly clear ...that you don;t know much about the game yet ? Yup. Quote: that the designers of the game have not only a preference for the criminal element, but also make it much more lucrative for longer-term players to pick on newer players than to actually engage in the sort of low-sec, high action activity which this game advertises Hey, if newer players wouldn't be such careless morons as to be voluntary loot pinatas, almost nobody would bother to hunt them down. There are far more efficient ways to make money other than suicide-ganking, but the victims make it so easy and attractive that... well... yes, they were asking for it, and whoever ganked them was doing the general population a service... they were also doing the gankee a service, by teaching him a valuable lesson : NEVER fly in or with something you can not stand the thought of losing. Quote: That said... this game is a pyramid scheme, where new players are forced to act as entertainment for long-timers and who have no hope of getting the skill levels needed to retaliate on an even footing ... unless you consider a few years of paid game time reasonable. Right, because suicide-gankers are year-old players ? LOL. Try to look closer to the typical suicide-ganker. Most of them are barely a couple of months old. Quote: So my question is, with no realistic way for new players to level the playing field, at least in PvP terms Skills stop training at L5. There's a limited amount of skills that are useful in PvP for any specific ship. YOU CAN AND WILL catch up with "vets". In fact, it's usually easy to surpass most vets in a reasonable timeframe if you specialize heavily, as most genuine vets tend to be "jack of all trades". They do have newer, specialized alts too, and such accounts could be younger than yours but still kick your ass. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Lady Alunae	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:36:00 - [17] I think I'm getting the message here... that the game probably isn't worth my time or money. Thanks for the advice all... sub canceled. And no, you can't have my leftover ISK.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:38:00 - [18] have fun in wow. :P ask for your stuff but meh you probably dont have any stuff worth having anyway.
Plocsk	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:39:00 - [19] Edited by: Plocsk on 06/05/2010 15:39:04 You need a certain temperament to enjoy this game - and the OP didn't have it. Also I think the OP is a trolling alt tbh.
Dan O'Connor Cerberus Network Dignitas.	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:39:00 - [20] Originally by: Lady Alunae I think I'm getting the message here... that the game probably isn't worth my time or money. Thanks for the advice all... sub canceled. And no, you can't have my leftover ISK. But your stuff? I need it. ________________________ Apply \| Channel CBSN Lounge
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:39:00 - [21] New players can suicide gank too, you know. Just saying.
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:41:00 - [22] Edited by: Estel Arador on 06/05/2010 15:41:18 Originally by: Lady Alunae I think I'm getting the message here... that the game probably isn't worth my time or money. Thanks for the advice all... sub canceled. And no, you can't have my leftover ISK. Guess which one you are. Learning Curve Free jumpclone service\|Now 1092 stations!
Jill Xelitras Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Lady Alunae I wouldn't have an issue if I had some reasonable way of exacting revenge for the loss of a ship, but the game is effectively rigged to prevent that from occurring... The problem is: YOU want to exact revenge when you shouldn't. It's an attitude problem that exists in RL. Kid gets the feeling that life is unfair, kid gets daddy's gun, kid murders his class mates. Revenge is a dish best served cold. That's the very first thing you read upon watching the movie "Kill Bill". It means that you need to check what means you have at your disposal to make your revenge effectively work. EVE is full of stories of people who took weeks of careful planning to achieve their goals. If you don't have that patience then avoid getting in situations where you might get angry at some person. In your case it would probably mean to stop mining in very expensive ships without a significant tank or being aligned to warp out at all time. The good news is that from May 18th on insurance will not cover more then 100% of the building cost of ships anymore. This makes ganking a little less profitable. J.
Bucky O'Hair Minmatar Valklear Guard	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:48:00 - [24] Originally by: Zaqar Eve Online GAME OVER Your score: 0 Please insert Ç15 to try again Dude that rocks! Can I use it for my signature? Bucky O'Hair "If it flys it dies!"
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.05.06 15:49:00 - [25] Edited by: Psychotic Maniac on 06/05/2010 15:49:42 Consider yourself the one getting tossed around. How to play with a noob _____________________________________________________ "One death is a tragedy. One million deaths is a statistic."
Dagny Bronstein	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:04:00 - [26] Edited by: Dagny Bronstein on 06/05/2010 16:05:01 Originally by: Lady Alunae When you can make a profit of 150+mil in a single attack on a hulk and the maximum insurance only covers 20% or less of the hull price... it makes it abundantly clear that the designers of the game have not only a preference for the criminal element, but also make it much more lucrative for longer-term players to pick on newer players than to actually engage in the sort of low-sec, high action activity which this game advertises. Last time I checked it took several months to train for a Hulk... New players generally tend to fly fully insurable T1 stuff. Getting suicide-ganked is no matter of in-game skills or character age but one of knowing the relevant game mechanics - a new player who has read the forums for a few days should know how to detect warning signs and how to avoid getting ganked; a new player who cannot be bothered to read up on game mechanics does so at his own peril.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:05:00 - [27] Getting suicided gives you kill rights, go get'em tiger. Earning 150M ISK is dirt easy even for low-SP players if you do it right. And finally you are a whiny loser who probably will quit the harsh world of EVE pretty soon anyway. No big loss.
Jack bubu Lyonesse. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:09:00 - [28] You should go and vote ankhasemptaasodj she should be an expert with pyramids having that egypt name and all.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:32:00 - [29] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 06/05/2010 16:33:44 Originally by: Lady Alunae As a new player some four months ago, I found EVE a fund game where the possibilities seemed endless. Lately, I've had come to the stark realization, however, that the basic nature of the game is very much like a pyramid scheme... and I, like any new or relatively new player, is on the bottom with no way out. The fact is, the game is rigged to favor certain activities such as suicide piracy in high sec. When you can make a profit of 150+mil in a single attack on a hulk and the maximum insurance only covers 20% or less of the hull price... it makes it abundantly clear that the designers of the game have not only a preference for the criminal element, but also make it much more lucrative for longer-term players to pick on newer players than to actually engage in the sort of low-sec, high action activity which this game advertises. That said... this game is a pyramid scheme, where new players are forced to act as entertainment for long-timers and who have no hope of getting the skill levels needed to retaliate on an even footing... unless you consider a few years of paid game time reasonable. So my question is, with no realistic way for new players to level the playing field, at least in PvP terms... what's the point of buying this game and paying just so I can provide a moving target for players who I can never even hope to match? And I make this question in all seriousness... I really don't see the logic and I think CCP should be much more truthful in their advertising. The point in paying for this game is obviously to fund CCP so they can build completely different games. Unfortunately, leveling the playing field would make pointless the long......long and drawn out process of skill training that older players have invested years in doing. You're not going to find much sympathy. As you've seen, so far the responses are mostly negative. However, I do understand where you're coming from. The new player can choose one of several routes: missioning, mining, pvp, right from the start. Lets face it, missioning is devoid of anything pleasurable. It's the same old missions over and over again. Mining, probably the least profitable means of making isk though it can be fun, for a while, with a group. PVP, the new player is nothing more than cannon fodder. Be it on his own or in a corp, death is imminent. Even in a blob, with limited skills, the new player is tasked as a tackler, the guy who is first to engage a target. Death is a certainty unless the blob acts quickly. However, within a couple of months the new player can branch out a little into sub professions such as ninjaing and exploration (wh's). Ninjaing, imo, if the most interesting profession of them all. You have quite a bit of player interaction. And tears from players you steal from are priceless. Exploration, is boring but, it's something else to do. Oh, and now there is planetary interaction. Think of Sim City without anything fun.
Olleybear I R' Carebear	Posted - 2010.05.07 00:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Lady Alunae I think I'm getting the message here... that the game probably isn't worth my time or money. The forums are full of trolls who like to get reactions out of people. They got one out of you. As to your first post, it sounds like you lost something you worked hard for and someone took it from you in hi-sec. Thats a hard punch to take on the chin. It also sounds like you dont think you have a chance of getting even. Eve is the wonderfull place it is because you do have that chance. As other people have pointed out, you have to use your brain in this game. Heres an idea, laugh about the loss with the ganker. Get in good and tight with him, maybe get him to invite you to his corp, fly with him, then one day when he is flying a hauler full of goodies... pop him. No matter how old he is, a simpe cruiser can kill a hauler easy. There are plenty of other things you can come up with if you use your brain. Eve isn't WoW. Eve isn't a 'twitch-headshot twitch-headshot' game. Eve is a thinking game. <<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>>
Sarah Tilly	Posted - 2010.05.07 00:04:00 - [31] Originally by: Zaqar Eve Online GAME OVER Your score: 0 Please insert Ç15 to try again My Hero
AdmiralJohn The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.07 00:08:00 - [32] Let's be real here. Everyone is just playing Eve while they wait for Infinity to come out.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.05.07 00:11:00 - [33] Hire mercs against them. Use your killrights. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE KEEPS TRACK OF KILL RIGHTS AND IF YOU KEEP TRYING THEY WILL SLIP UP BECAUSE OF THIS. If you can't take them 1v1? Wait for them to fight someone else, and jump in to turn the tide. Follow them around with an empty hauler and steal the loot from their other suicide ganks. Join a corp who will help you. Specialize and train skills. Here's a hint: It's not about SP, it's about player knowledge. I have a month old friend doing just fine in pvp, because they're not completely clueless anymore. You have to go out and learn. Silly newbies think of it like levels "They have more SP, they'll autowin".. EVE does not work that way. Older players are not better than you at everything, they just have more things that they're good at. For example, a couple month old character who specialized in intys can probably match or outfly your average old character, in an inty. Thing is, the old character can probably also fly tech2 cruisers, and battleships, etc etc etc... But that's fine. Anyway: SP isn't what got you suicide ganked. If you had done the same thing as a 2003 pilot (whatever you were doing when ganked), you'd still have been ganked. They didn't target you because you were new, they targetted you because you were vulnerable. Also I will laugh at you if you ragequit over this.
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.05.07 00:43:00 - [34] Maybe I'm missing something here but this isn't anything like a pyramid scheme.
Kaijusan Gallente Austro-Hungarian Empire Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.07 00:48:00 - [35] Personally I think the whole game needs to be reset, skills, isk, sovereignty. 99% of the so called elite players wouldnt stand a chance on a level playing field.
Taxesarebad	Posted - 2010.05.07 00:57:00 - [36] not a vetern here but lol if they reset everthing the game will fail. no items, no isk, a race to 0.0 veldspar will be like 100isk each because there isnt enough to tritanium to build a battleship. -------------SIGZONE-------------- Remove Shadow.... ;)
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:08:00 - [37] If you're new and flying a hulk, you have a industry specced character. Of course you can't match PvP specced characters in combat. Getting suicide ganked has nothing to do with age and everything to do with competence. Veteran players can inevitably be 'caught up to' due to skill levels bring capped at 5. Not to mention diminishing returns. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Olleybear I R' Carebear	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:17:00 - [38] Originally by: Kaijusan 99% of the so called elite players wouldnt stand a chance on a level playing field. I LoL'd at that. It's even funnier because I'm not sure if your serious or not. <<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>>
Aaron Eternal Frontier Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:30:00 - [39] Edited by: Aaron on 07/05/2010 01:30:24 OP, In this game you really have to work as a team, I see myself as a mentor that is more than capable of providing advice and working with new guys. If you want to learn how to pvp look me up, dont be fooled by the illusion that has been put infrot of you, i can show you differently. Will you take the blue pill and go on believing what you see around you, or will you take the red pill and I show you just how deep eve goes?
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Lady Alunae I wouldn't have an issue if I had some reasonable way of exacting revenge for the loss of a ship, but the game is effectively rigged to prevent that from occurring, Mercenaries. Some of them do a very good job. There's a ingame channel for hiring them, but I forgot what is the name. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:57:00 - [41] Originally by: Kaijusan Personally I think the whole game needs to be reset, skills, isk, sovereignty. 99% of the so called elite players wouldnt stand a chance on a level playing field. That's not even remotely true, at least not in the sense you seem to think. There are 2 big things wrong with the assumptions made by many newer players that they'll never catch up to the vets of the game: The first being that skill training/specialization has diminishing returns, and that you only use a handful of skills with every ship you fly. To illustrate the first point: I open up eft, and set up a thorax mainly for damage. With my skills, I get 627 DPS from it. Going from gallente cruiser 5, to gallente cruiser 4, the dps drops to 607. That's what, a 3% drop in damage? for a 3 week skill? For ONE line of ships? As for the second point: I have 3 races BS trained to 5. At 2mil SP a pop, I've spent 6mil SP training up to be able to fly 3 races BSs (plus an assload of other skills but that's not the point I'm trying to make). With 6mil SP, you could literally train up to be a better dramiel pilot than me. The skills to fly it well aren't very big or very difficult to get, but if flown properly it's one of the best pvp ship in the game right now. I have over 50 million skillpoints, but every ship I get into uses maybe a tenth of that, it's really not hard to spec into a ship and fly it as well as the vets do, having lots of SP allows you to fly MORE, not necessarily BETTER. As for the OP: There are more ways that I care to count to level the playing field. They won't all be apparent to you until you've been playing for a while, but then the same could be said of just about every game out there now couldn't it? After a wile you reach the point where you realize that character age and SP don't really mean much (TBH I do still check character age sometimes, but only to see what the odds of a BS I'm about to engage being sh*tfit are) and you'll stop worrying so much about how much SP people have. BTW obviously a suicide ganker is going to nuke a hulk, he's fit for combat and you're...well...not. Last time I suicide ganked a hulk it was with a week old alt to test out the new artillery damage
Amaurotique	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:02:00 - [42] Originally by: Lady Alunae As a new player some four months ago, I found EVE a fund game where the possibilities seemed endless. Lately, I've had come to the stark realization, however, that the basic nature of the game is very much like a pyramid scheme... and I, like any new or relatively new player, is on the bottom with no way out. The fact is, the game is rigged to favor certain activities such as suicide piracy in high sec. When you can make a profit of 150+mil in a single attack on a hulk and the maximum insurance only covers 20% or less of the hull price... it makes it abundantly clear that the designers of the game have not only a preference for the criminal element, but also make it much more lucrative for longer-term players to pick on newer players than to actually engage in the sort of low-sec, high action activity which this game advertises. That said... this game is a pyramid scheme, where new players are forced to act as entertainment for long-timers and who have no hope of getting the skill levels needed to retaliate on an even footing... unless you consider a few years of paid game time reasonable. So my question is, with no realistic way for new players to level the playing field, at least in PvP terms... what's the point of buying this game and paying just so I can provide a moving target for players who I can never even hope to match? And I make this question in all seriousness... I really don't see the logic and I think CCP should be much more truthful in their advertising. Congrats- you've just come to the realization that drives many new players to quit the game. Sort of rather you kept it to yourself though so that anyone who doesn't pick up on it might be more interested in sticking around. shrug This is one of the major flaws of EVE. You will never catch up to the older players. SP > skill which means Time played > skill. Older players, attempting to save their e-peen status, will try to fight this. They will try to argue that your tech 1 frigate flying all tech 1 components can fight on equal ground to a tech 1 frigate in tech 2 components or even a tech 2 frigate. That the 50%-100% EHP and damage differences are meaningless and it's all about who flies better. Sure, knowing wtf to do is half the battle... the other half is having an ass-ton of SPs and an ECM boat. :) Welcome to the grand choice new EVE players are left with- are all the good parts of the game enough to keep you around despite knowing this, or is the realization that you'll never catch up in SPs ruin the game for you? For some it's the latter... and sadly when they leave the game they probably will not be missed. New players will come to take their place and play for several months before they realize this too. I will give EVE one thing that you may not have taken into consideration: you can only get SO good at something. I mean take battleships: someone with 50m SP will probably be just as set at flying it as someone with 100m SP. Someone with 20m (about a year's gameplay) will be really darned close. The reason a lot of people stick around is the realization of this and the question of "what would I do with the rest of those SPs? 0_o".
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:09:00 - [43] Originally by: Amaurotique shrug This is one of the major flaws of EVE. You will never catch up to the older players. SP > skill which means Time played > skill. Older players, attempting to save their e-peen status, will try to fight this. They will try to argue that your tech 1 frigate flying all tech 1 components can fight on equal ground to a tech 1 frigate in tech 2 components or even a tech 2 frigate. That the 50%-100% EHP and damage differences are meaningless and it's all about who flies better. Sure, knowing wtf to do is half the battle... the other half is having an ass-ton of SPs and an ECM boat. :) Welcome to the grand choice new EVE players are left with- are all the good parts of the game enough to keep you around despite knowing this, or is the realization that you'll never catch up in SPs ruin the game for you? What part of - Character progression being an integral part of most/all MMORPGs - Skill level caps - Dimishing returns have you completely failed to understand? Putting aside the particular's of EVE's skill system, a lot of people talk as if EVE is the only game in the world where an older character has an advantage over a newer character. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Boshell	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:18:00 - [44] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Amaurotique shrug This is one of the major flaws of EVE. You will never catch up to the older players. SP > skill which means Time played > skill. Older players, attempting to save their e-peen status, will try to fight this. They will try to argue that your tech 1 frigate flying all tech 1 components can fight on equal ground to a tech 1 frigate in tech 2 components or even a tech 2 frigate. That the 50%-100% EHP and damage differences are meaningless and it's all about who flies better. Sure, knowing wtf to do is half the battle... the other half is having an ass-ton of SPs and an ECM boat. :) Welcome to the grand choice new EVE players are left with- are all the good parts of the game enough to keep you around despite knowing this, or is the realization that you'll never catch up in SPs ruin the game for you? What part of - Character progression being an integral part of most/all MMORPGs - Skill level caps - Dimishing returns have you completely failed to understand? Putting aside the particular's of EVE's skill system, a lot of people talk as if EVE is the only game in the world where an older character has an advantage over a newer character. In other games newer characters at least have a REMOTE possibility of catching up. EVE is designed to stroke the e-peen of anyone who's been around longer than the rest and assure them each night before bed that they can sleep easy because no, those stupid noobs will never catch up.
Apo Lyptica	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:18:00 - [45] Eve is not a pyramid scheme, far from. Reward is equivalent to the effort invested in the game (money wise). Eve is a cold hard place, like real life. If someone IRL was murdered before the police got there, could they cry on gods forums saying how unfair it is that the police cant hold everyones hand? CCP wants to mimic this IRL, by having each security level to have different response times. As far as insurance is concerned, T2 insurance is coming!!!!!!!! wait 2 weeks :) So nublet, dry those tears and perk up cupcake!
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:51:00 - [46] OP is a typical clueless noob. Yes it takes 6 month ussually maybe a year to compete. But after that earning isk is basically just function of intelligence and effort. A 1 year old character can earn billions a week if they know what they are doing. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:58:00 - [47] Originally by: Boshell In other games newer characters at least have a REMOTE possibility of catching up. In EVE you are guaranteed to be able to catch up, in any given area. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Darheel Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2010.05.07 03:28:00 - [48] I've been around a month or so and even I think the OP is just a crybaby. The potential to lose everything you have is one of the perks in this game IMO. How can you enjoy victory if there is no chance of failure? Sorry you got popped. Get over it.
Grohalmatar The Tuskers The Tusker Bastards	Posted - 2010.05.07 04:05:00 - [49] So how do I get to the top of the pyramid? I'm a vet. I'm a pirate. And honestly 150 mil a suicide gank? Cool story bro . . .
HIghlord Diamond	Posted - 2010.05.07 05:46:00 - [50] Originally by: Apo Lyptica Eve is not a pyramid scheme, far from. Reward is equivalent to the effort invested in the game (money wise). Eve is a cold hard place, like real life. If someone IRL was murdered before the police got there, could they cry on gods forums saying how unfair it is that the police cant hold everyones hand? CCP wants to mimic this IRL, by having each security level to have different response times. As far as insurance is concerned, T2 insurance is coming!!!!!!!! wait 2 weeks :) So nublet, dry those tears and perk up cupcake! Not that I want to defend the op or anything, he's obviously the newest player that couldn't take the concept of HTFU and accept the harshness of EVE, but I do want to mention that you overlooked a very important detail : In EVE, when you die, you get a clone and get back in the game. In real life, if I kill someone, that person dies FOREVER. And I'm forced to hide it from everyone else and keep this to myself and probably go mad with all the aftermath guilt of taking a life. Of course, there's always crazy people who just don't care and will kill you for looking at them funny, but those are by far a minority. In EVE, anything but a 100% pure heart noob carebear is a murderer in some sense and they don't care either, because they know the victim is virtual a respawns instantly . This critical difference makes me feel pretty safe about going out at night for a daily walk, as I know the chances of actually getting attack are extremely low. I don't check all the windows of my house for potential house campers the way I check local and ask cloaked mates to clear me out of stations when reds are in system, the only thing close to 0.0 on Earth is on another continent entirely and it surely ain't the 'high end' of existence to be there. My business is much more lucrative in the RL 'High Sec'. So I don't need to risk my life in a war zone to be someone important and happy. So yeah, it doesn't change anything about the main subject of the thread, but they are major differences between EVE and RL, and I believe if EVE was all real, with real people dying, real worlds being bombarded and everything, we would consider it insanely harsher and cruel than the current faith of real Earth's humanity (Even if overall, lots of people are dying senselessly). Last time I checked, I'm technically killing over 10 000 'peoples' every time I nuke an NPC Battleship. By that count, I'm pretty sure most of us here have their own WW2 worth in kills and beyond. Multiply that by the count of players in the game and we've probably killed more 'humans' in 7 years of EVE than there ever was in real-life. (My own rough first estimation here is at 19.8 trillion humans! !_! ) But still, it the closest an MMO ever got to RL so far, in terms of harshness : )
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2010.05.07 06:15:00 - [51] Originally by: Lady Alunae ... and I, like any new or relatively new player, is on the bottom with no way out... Learn the game mechanics, get to know what you can do and what you can't do. Get some friendly advice from other players. And so on. Originally by: Lady Alunae The fact is, the game is rigged to favor certain activities such as suicide piracy in high sec. When you can make a profit of 150+mil in a single attack on a hulk and the maximum insurance only covers 20% or less of the hull price... Never fly what you can't afford to lose. Also, how is the attacker making a 150m profit from destroying a hulk? Originally by: Lady Alunae it makes it abundantly clear that the designers of the game have not only a preference for the criminal element, but also make it much more lucrative for longer-term players to pick on newer players Yes, Eve is designed to be a dark and dangerous world. Only the strong or the clever will survive. Originally by: Lady Alunae That said... this game is a pyramid scheme, where new players are forced to act as entertainment for long-timers and who have no hope of getting the skill levels needed to retaliate on an even footing... unless you consider a few years of paid game time reasonable. Another key is in sticking together. In other MMOs small guys will never be able to kill a large guy, not in Eve. Just get some people in cheap ships together and kill the attacker. If you lose only more or less free t1 stuff and kill expensive t2 ships ... sooner or later the attackers will shift to someone who causes fewer troubles. I think you have never heared of that goonswarm alliance who stirred up the 'elite' 0.0 alliances in their t1 crap ships just by good organisation and masses? A prime example who noobs can do amazing stuff even in small and cheap ships if they just stick together and organize. Originally by: Lady Alunae So my question is, with no realistic way for new players to level the playing field, at least in PvP terms... what's the point of buying this game and paying Your assumption that new players have no chance is invalid. So, any conclusion based on that assumption is pointless. Also the key to playing a game successfully is having fun!
Azirapheal Amarr Ammatric Industries Ltd. Honourable Templum of Alcedonia	Posted - 2010.05.07 08:19:00 - [52] if anything the game favours newer players. the only difference between you an me is that im awesome with a few different things whereas your awesome in a more limited field for now... if we both took our best cruisers in a face off chances are i'd whip you... if we fought off in an interceptor however, things would be much much closer. makes you wonder why ive played for 4 years... Originally by: Azirapheal i never ever thought id live to see the day.... that titans were nerfed for being FOTM HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA Originally by: CCP Zymurgist SoonÖ
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.07 08:43:00 - [53] Originally by: Amaurotique shrug This is one of the major flaws of EVE. You will never catch up to the older players. Half-right. You can only rarely catch up with older players in terms of total SP. Fortunately, total SP is completely meaningless. Quote: SP > skill which means Time played > skill. It also means you can always beat older players, because the domain-relevant SP is capped. Once you get all V in the skills that are involved in the situation, you can't get any more. This does not change if you're new or old û it's the same hard cap for everyone. It's also an easy cap to reach. As such, what you're saying is that, since (player) skill apparently doesn't matter, killing older players is actually very easy. Granted, you're actually very wrong in this statement û skills matter quite a bit û but that only means that either way, the imbalance just isn't there: either SP matter most, in which case you can catch up; or skill matters most, in which case you can catch up (or just be naturally gifted). Quote: They will try to argue that your tech 1 frigate flying all tech 1 components can fight on equal ground to a tech 1 frigate in tech 2 components or even a tech 2 frigate. No, they'll argue that 1) 2× T1 > T2, and this is a social game, so just go out and gang-surprise-sex the guy; that 2) you can get the same skills, and when you do, you're on equal level; and 3) that you don't understand what "catching up" entails in EVE. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
iudex	Posted - 2010.05.07 08:54:00 - [54] Eve is also a game where a 4 month old newb in a battlecruiser can suicide-gank a 7 year old vet's hulk. Find me another game without skill- or level-caps, where a newb can do that to a vet and then we talk again about pyramid schemes. _____________________________________________________ Eveboard // Faction Standings: Serpentis +8.02 / Angel Cartel +9.24 / Gallente Federation -10.00
Dan Grobag Caldari Grobag's Family	Posted - 2010.05.07 09:14:00 - [55] Eve could be seen as a pyramid scheme but the fun is at it's base really.
Trathen Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.07 09:45:00 - [56] Edited by: Trathen on 07/05/2010 09:47:03 I clicked on this thread hoping for a story about a successful in-EVE pyramid scheme. Left disappointed. OP does not understand how pyramid schemes work. Originally by: Tippia Half-right. You can only rarely catch up with older players in terms of total SP. Fortunately, total SP is completely meaningless. Nonsense. Bought a clone lately? High SP characters have actually been complaining. I never thought I'd see the day. So yeah, specialized noobs can "catch-up" and then some.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.07 09:57:00 - [57] Originally by: Trathen Nonsense. Bought a clone lately? High SP characters have actually been complaining. I never thought I'd see the day. So yeah, specialized noobs can "catch-up" and then some. I was thinking more along the lines of how much "powerful" (as completely meaningless as that concept is in EVE) you are, but yesà quite right: total SP has one purpose û to make dying more painful. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.05.07 10:12:00 - [58] It takes all of a week and a half to train a smartbombing phoon therefore your argument is irrelevant. ~_~ (Retired from ship toasting. Now a professional.)
Atrei Capital	Posted - 2010.05.07 10:50:00 - [59] You need a basic subset of skills. You need your support stuff (rapid firing, tracking skills, cap skills, etc etc) to 4-5. You need tech2 weapons on your ship of choice. Afterwards, you're good to go. An all level IV ship (maybe a couple months?) and an all level V ship will have a MAYBE 10% difference in performance. Meaning, the new person can win with better tactics/fittings/simply getting the drop, bringing friends, etc. It's almost negligable. In other games a low level cannot hit a higher level. They miss. They hit for 0. They can't hide. They move slower. ...In EVE, killing frigates that don't want to fight is nigh-impossible. Newbies are very difficult to force an engagement with if they know what they're doing. Of course, they don't, but.. Knowledge is key. I took a pair of two day old trial alts out and killed a tech2 fitted battlecruiser. We didn't lose because our SP was lower, and our SP was pathetically low. HTFU.
Dodgy Past Amarr Debitum Naturae BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.05.07 11:10:00 - [60] Another alternative is play the markets, make a fortune, then buy a character with isk. I know someone who has a lot less time in the game with 3x the SP and never spent a single RL penny playing after his 3rd month. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards.
Ulmagod	Posted - 2010.05.07 11:12:00 - [61] Originally by: Brolly Granted, you wont be able to get into a carrier in 4 months, but neither could us oldies. Hell, in our time all we had were indy's, frigs, cruisers and battleships. I don't support the OP's view, but when I see the above sort of argument against it I do feel the need to point out a fundamental flaw. For example how did you wonderful skilled oldies deal with HACs, Covop Cloakies and Carrier drops in those dark desperate days? Oh wait... ...and in the same vein. Sure it was possible for a 2 day old toon to get into a Rifter and solo PvP back then, because it wasn't possible for him to run into a Vagabond, Cynabal, Dramiel, Wolf, Jaguar or a whole host of other more recently added ships to the game which can rip apart a Rifter in seconds without any risk.
Florio Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.05.07 11:14:00 - [62] Originally by: Lady Alunae I think I'm getting the message here... that the game probably isn't worth my time or money. Thanks for the advice all... sub canceled. And no, you can't have my leftover ISK. You are being emo, and using incorrect information and assumptions to support your emo'ness. Success in the game depends on guts and cooperation, not skillpoints (except in those rare duels). Who is more valued in a fleet fight, for instance, the low sp covert ops pilot with the guts to scout the enemy and line up warp-ins or the elite sp sniper battleship grunt? As for cooperation, Goonswarm took down Band of Brothers with god knows how fewer skillpoints.
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare	Posted - 2010.05.07 11:16:00 - [63] Originally by: Brolly It all comes down to specialisation in specific areas ... If you train up for a certain role and become skilled in it, you can be better than the vets. ^^
Shania Lynn	Posted - 2010.05.07 11:18:00 - [64] Originally by: Zaqar Eve Online GAME OVER Your score: 0 Please insert Ç15 to try again This. HTFU or GTFO!
Dewa Jerung	Posted - 2010.05.07 11:35:00 - [65] in eve..sometimes,we have to live with it :( ... :)
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.05.07 11:56:00 - [66] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Trathen Nonsense. Bought a clone lately? High SP characters have actually been complaining. I never thought I'd see the day. So yeah, specialized noobs can "catch-up" and then some. I was thinking more along the lines of how much "powerful" (as completely meaningless as that concept is in EVE) you are, but yesà quite right: total SP has one purpose û to make dying more painful. 20M SP clone day is looming... (Will cost me an extra 49 mill a year )
I'm 5particus	Posted - 2010.05.13 15:13:00 - [67] Simple, your mission you choose to accept it is to recruit 3 newbies, then get them to do the same. just like a real pyramid schema.
Jill Xelitras Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.14 04:23:00 - [68] We are the knights who say "Ni" and put it where it belongs: Originally by: Crumplecorn - Diminishing returns ... and if you wonder where I got it from, I stole it from the -Kunni Jill
Krimishkev Out of Order Cult of War	Posted - 2010.05.14 05:51:00 - [69] Edited by: Krimishkev on 14/05/2010 05:55:36 Cue Nostalgia: - Killing a Carrier in 1 Shot with a Ragnarok. 5 years Experience and 70billion ISK - Killing 30 battleships in a fleet fight, with your Maelstrom. 2 Years Experience and 200mil ISK - Getting killed in Rancer, on the way to Jita, with 700K Tritanium in the cargohold of your Horder. 2 weeks experience and Priceless. The overwhelming reality of eve hit me right then, empty wallet, no ship, podded. Even after coming back to EVE for the second time at that point. It still had the same effect on me. I love it, and TBH, it took 2 years for me to get grasp around the real inner workings and mechanics of EVE Online. So the 2.5 years spent in reaching 40mil skill points is not a bother. I've met a lot of cool people and a lot of douche bags. Won some, lost some, ect. It's what EVE is about, the experience is more than just a game. It's and experience.
Slam Phoenix	Posted - 2010.05.14 10:48:00 - [70] Originally by: Zaqar Eve Online GAME OVER Your score: 0 Please insert Ç15 to try again This is bio material, I love it
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.05.14 11:56:00 - [71] Originally by: Zaqar Eve Online GAME OVER Your score: 0 Please insert Ç15 to try again Classic!!! Originally by: Estel Arador Edited by: Estel Arador on 06/05/2010 15:41:18 Originally by: Lady Alunae I think I'm getting the message here... that the game probably isn't worth my time or money. Thanks for the advice all... sub canceled. And no, you can't have my leftover ISK. Guess which one you are. http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0803/LearningCurve.jpg Learning Curve Image changed to URL. Zymurgist The one jumping freely head first over the cliff Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Eternum Praetorian Method In Khaos	Posted - 2010.05.14 11:59:00 - [72] People seem to come to EVE, and they have this fallacy that one day, when they have a ton of SP, they will be able to PVP awesomely. This is simply not the case. I have seen people will amazing killboard stats who only had enough skills to fly a tech I cruiser, tech I guns, and they could just barely manage a tech II tank. On the other hand, I have seen super capital pilots with a cosmic ** ton of SP, fail so miserably at PVP it was laughable. When confronted with their stupidity they will say things like ôYou probably have more SP then I do in actually PVP ship, because I am a max skilled supercap pilotö The SP sink into a capital ship is huge, and unless you like blobbing and alliance drama it is completely useless . . . Sp does matter yes, it is just that it matters less then you think if you direct your skill path appropriately. On top of that, you can have no SP at all and be nearly invulnerable to being killed if you know a few tricks of the PVP trade. The catch 22 is: How do you know what skills to skill for? How will you learn those PVP tricks? How do you know what PVP fits work and what ships fail at PVP? No amount of SP is going to teach you that. Finding someone who will teach you those tricks is hard. However, if you can manage to find someone, you will also find that you can do very well with far less SP then you think. The "EVE Pyramid" that you speak of is probably like 40% SP and 60% knowledge of the game.**
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.05.15 01:30:00 - [73] Originally by: Lady Alunae As a new player some four months ago, I found EVE a fund game where the possibilities seemed endless. Lately, I've had come to the stark realization, however, that the basic nature of the game is very much like a pyramid scheme... and I, like any new or relatively new player, is on the bottom with no way out. The fact is, the game is rigged to favor certain activities such as suicide piracy in high sec. When you can make a profit of 150+mil in a single attack on a hulk and the maximum insurance only covers 20% or less of the hull price... it makes it abundantly clear that the designers of the game have not only a preference for the criminal element, but also make it much more lucrative for longer-term players to pick on newer players than to actually engage in the sort of low-sec, high action activity which this game advertises. That said... this game is a pyramid scheme, where new players are forced to act as entertainment for long-timers and who have no hope of getting the skill levels needed to retaliate on an even footing... unless you consider a few years of paid game time reasonable. So my question is, with no realistic way for new players to level the playing field, at least in PvP terms... what's the point of buying this game and paying just so I can provide a moving target for players who I can never even hope to match? And I make this question in all seriousness... I really don't see the logic and I think CCP should be much more truthful in their advertising. 1. Don't compare eve to wow 2. Admit eve is unique and decide to work hard to accomplish. 3. Specialize in one ship. You will generally be roughly equvalent skill wise against any player of any sp total for that ship. 4. Pvp alot to learn tactics...a non eve skill thing that YOU youself gain. 5. Pvp in said ship w/said skills. 6. Comeback and let us know if you suck still or if you were wrong. Thanks
Gangus Minmatar Matari BackBone Fate Weavers	Posted - 2010.05.15 07:40:00 - [74] Originally by: Dan O'Connor ...there must be someone ultimate at the top of it all... Which - at least I think so - there isn't... Or I don't perceive it that way. Of course there's someone at the top: Chribba! /me waits to see how long it now takes for a chribba response Gangus Official Out Of Game Booster Tester Matari BackBone I hate it when it's not clear when someone's sig begins. Never mess with a guy in an ugly ship, he's got nothing to los

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.05.15 07:59:00 - [75] I'd never run a pyramid thingy. And sorry for the delay. Was throwing out the trash. Secure 3rd party service \| my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'


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