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Are lvl 4s really getting nerfed

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Musical Fist Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.05.12 11:07:00 - [1] If so how, linky please Also links on assault ship buffs too XD This is so not my main

CCP Navigator C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.12 11:10:00 - [2] The only change being made to Level 4 missions, as far as I am aware, are changes to Rogue Drone compound and NPC loot drops. You can read the full details in this blog. Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.12 11:21:00 - [3] Threadnaught Aversion Lv5 ITT - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Musical Fist Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.05.12 11:24:00 - [4] Originally by: CCP Navigator The only change being made to Level 4 missions, as far as I am aware, are changes to Rogue Drone compound and NPC loot drops. You can read the full details in this blog. Interesting changes, I actually dont mind them, very nice overall, nice work, although 'the circle of life' was a little missleading :P NPC Loot Quote: We identified a core set of loot tables which are responsible for contributing to the majority of the NPC loot sourced minerals and these are the first ones we want to adjust with Tyrannis, reducing the quantity of the Tech 0 items being dropped and substituting it with a variation of scrap metals or tags, for example. There will still be the same amount of Tech 1 meta 1-4 modules being dropped and these will still act as mineral faucets if you desire a source of minerals still from NPC combat. Hmm scrap metals such as those things you get as salvage waste from mercs / EoM for example, does that mean we will get new types of scrap metal and not the generic one that gives trit, if so would they still refine into trit or just be a new type of salvage that acts much like drone compounds? Now to assault ships ;) but ill check sisi instead This is so not my main
So Cash	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:08:00 - [5] Originally by: CCP Navigator The only change being made to Level 4 missions, as far as I am aware, are changes to Rogue Drone compound and NPC loot drops. You can read the full details in this blog. So they are getting a nerf then eh?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:12:00 - [6] Originally by: So Cash Originally by: CCP Navigator The only change being made to Level 4 missions, as far as I am aware, are changes to Rogue Drone compound and NPC loot drops. You can read the full details in this blog. So they are getting a nerf then eh? Not really. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Drenan State War Academy	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:21:00 - [7] L4 missions have already been stealth nerfed repeatedly, namely by making them more difficult for anyone flying anything but a raven...I fly a raven so no real problem.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:22:00 - [8] Originally by: Crumplecorn Threadnaught Aversion Lv5 ITT Naive optimism IV ITT.
Musical Fist Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Drenan L4 missions have already been stealth nerfed repeatedly, namely by making them more difficult for anyone flying anything but a raven...I fly a raven so no real problem. Obvious troll or idiot, people assume the Raven is good purely because they can choose their damage type, I have flown all the BS, all the BC and all the Marauders and Golems / Ravens arent all that, Drakes are good for their tank but if I was going to pick a marauder / BS I would avoid Caldari altogether in PvE and PvP. This is so not my main
Galgacus	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:33:00 - [10] Your thread about moving all L4s to low sec needs some support.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Drenan L4 missions have already been stealth nerfed repeatedly, namely by making them more difficult for anyone flying anything but a raven...I fly a raven so no real problem. Riiightà how so, in what way, and when did this happen? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

CCP Soundwave C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:39:00 - [12] Just to clarify, this loot changes are to a specific type of NPCs, so their loot changes regardless if they are found in a mission or in other content that shares npc type.

So Cash	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: So Cash Originally by: CCP Navigator The only change being made to Level 4 missions, as far as I am aware, are changes to Rogue Drone compound and NPC loot drops. You can read the full details in this blog. So they are getting a nerf then eh? Not really. Yeh really
Drenan State War Academy	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Musical Fist Originally by: Drenan L4 missions have already been stealth nerfed repeatedly, namely by making them more difficult for anyone flying anything but a raven...I fly a raven so no real problem. Obvious troll or idiot, people assume the Raven is good purely because they can choose their damage type, I have flown all the BS, all the BC and all the Marauders and Golems / Ravens arent all that, Drakes are good for their tank but if I was going to pick a marauder / BS I would avoid Caldari altogether in PvE and PvP. Is it possible to be both?
Fuel Technician	Posted - 2010.05.12 13:04:00 - [15] CCP taking away meta 0 items is going to be a big isk looser for mission runners, by far the best loot to get is large guns,they drop frequently and sell well, the meta 0 ones to be presise, look at the market buy orders for large neutron blaster cannons, they sell for around 1 mill isk, meta 1-3 sell for around 300k isk, with only the meta 4 items being worth more than the meta 0. you'd have to be mad to reprocess those but thats what CCP are assuming we all do. only work around i can see is having a trader alt and spending alot ( too much i fear ) of time decreasing your sell order price by 0.01 isk to stay ahead of the dedicated traders. sounds like fun to me!!
Saietor Blackgreen Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.05.12 13:06:00 - [16] Yes, income from them will be nerfed - Damsel in Distress drops several millions worth of meta-0 large guns. These will be changed to scrapmetals or other semi-worthless things. Which is fine - these meta-0 drops provided way to big influx of minerals from loot. Bounties, rewards and salvage will still be there... --- EvE online. New game every 6 months.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.12 13:09:00 - [17] Edited by: Tippia on 12/05/2010 13:11:01 Originally by: So Cash Yeh really Replacement of stuff with equivalent stuff ≠ nerf. The only "nerf" of sorts is that you won't be able to produce as much minerals or meta-0 items, and guess what, if you want to produce either of those you can always get into the professions that do so alreadyà so that's a good thing. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.05.12 13:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 12/05/2010 13:11:01 Originally by: So Cash Yeh really Replacement of stuff with equivalent stuff ≠ nerf. The only "nerf" of sorts is that you won't be able to produce as much minerals or meta-0 items, and guess what, if you want to produce either of those you can always get into the professions that do so alreadyà so that's a good thing. Training something more (industrial/manufacturing skills) just so I can acquire cheap t1 modules for cheap pvp sounds like a nerf to me.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.12 13:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Amberlamps Training something more (industrial/manufacturing skills) just so I can acquire cheap t1 modules for cheap pvp sounds like a nerf to me. Sounds more like a bugfix, tbh. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.05.12 13:51:00 - [20] Originally by: Amberlamps Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 12/05/2010 13:11:01 Originally by: So Cash Yeh really Replacement of stuff with equivalent stuff ≠ nerf. The only "nerf" of sorts is that you won't be able to produce as much minerals or meta-0 items, and guess what, if you want to produce either of those you can always get into the professions that do so alreadyà so that's a good thing. Training something more (industrial/manufacturing skills) just so I can acquire cheap t1 modules for cheap pvp sounds like a nerf to me. Stealth "Minerals I mine are free" statement? ---------- Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
Musical Fist Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.05.12 14:12:00 - [21] Edited by: Musical Fist on 12/05/2010 14:12:20 nvm forgot it was 30 posts not 20 This is so not my main
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.12 14:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Taedrin Originally by: Amberlamps Training something more (industrial/manufacturing skills) just so I can acquire cheap t1 modules for cheap pvp sounds like a nerf to me. Stealth "Minerals I mine are free" statement? More or less. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.05.12 14:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 12/05/2010 13:11:01 Originally by: So Cash Yeh really Replacement of stuff with equivalent stuff ≠ nerf. The only "nerf" of sorts is that you won't be able to produce as much minerals or meta-0 items, and guess what, if you want to produce either of those you can always get into the professions that do so alreadyà so that's a good thing. I hear from reliable sources (my ass) that the scrap metal will reprocess into the equivalent amount of minerals.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.05.12 14:29:00 - [24] Originally by: Musical Fist Edited by: Musical Fist on 12/05/2010 14:12:20 nvm forgot it was 30 posts not 20 Quoting a sniper fail. --------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.12 14:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab I hear from reliable sources (my ass) that the scrap metal will reprocess into the equivalent amount of minerals. Equivalent to what? Your source is very fuzzy on the detailsà ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Musical Fist Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.05.12 14:33:00 - [26] At first I was a bit nervous about these changes but after carefully checking, it isnt a bad thing at all, sadly I feel macro lamers will increase This is so not my main
MaxxOmega Caldari Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels	Posted - 2010.05.12 17:21:00 - [27] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab I hear from reliable sources (my ass) that the scrap metal will reprocess into the equivalent amount of minerals. Equivalent to what? Your source is very fuzzy on the detailsà That's because he has a fuzzy ass?
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.13 02:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab I hear from reliable sources (my ass) that the scrap metal will reprocess into the equivalent amount of minerals. Equivalent to what? Your source is very fuzzy on the detailsà That was the best pun I have heard on the eve forums yet. This is clearly a signature.
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.05.13 02:55:00 - [29] Edited by: Captain Mastiff on 13/05/2010 02:55:43 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Taedrin Originally by: Amberlamps Training something more (industrial/manufacturing skills) just so I can acquire cheap t1 modules for cheap pvp sounds like a nerf to me. Stealth "Minerals I mine are free" statement? More or less. No? Sounds like a nerf to me. I wonder why CCP change things that don't need fixing as much as others... (edit, I imagine that would spark controversy). Increasing the value of minerals but still not decreasing the amount of macro miners significantly is only going to encourage macro'ers. Its a completely different point but its the fact CCP address the wrong problems first. WHERE THE **** IS MY ROFLKET FIX
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.05.13 04:22:00 - [30] Edited by: Zartrader on 13/05/2010 04:25:13 It's a nerf but I stopped collecting loot and salvage a long time ago, It does not take much training to make it not worth the time it takes. I suspect many MR's are ignoring opportunity cost so if anything overall mission income may go up and some will wonder why they salvaged and looted in the first place. MR's are not really known for lateral thinking (hence all the inane moans about ninja salvagers), maybe this will do the thinking for them.
Wolfgang Jager Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2010.05.13 05:10:00 - [31] Not that I even run missions anymore (most boring thing in the whole game tbh); but this is a nerf to anyone who bothered to loot their wrecks. Just burning through the missions was already arguably the best way to make ISK and this will remove any question about it. Anything that removes options = nerf and is bad for the game so far as I am concerned.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.05.13 05:14:00 - [32] Stuff that used to be in wrecks is being replaced with new stuff. Loot is not being removed just changed. Mission runners who stop to loot will now be able to loot everything without having to bring along a small hauler. [Aussie players: join channels ANZAC]
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.05.13 05:27:00 - [33] Originally by: Mara Rinn Stuff that used to be in wrecks is being replaced with new stuff. Loot is not being removed just changed. Mission runners who stop to loot will now be able to loot everything without having to bring along a small hauler. Nowhere has it been stated that you get the equivalent mineral amounts or value in dogtags from the wrecks. They only said they'll replace the meta-0 items in the drop table with scrap metal and dogtags/etc. This does not mean the value and/or amount of minerals to be refined will be the same. Actually it is more likely it will be a lot lower.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.05.13 06:16:00 - [34] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab This does not mean the value and/or amount of minerals to be refined will be the same. Actually it is more likely it will be a lot lower. If you loot everything today, you'll likely suffer a loss of income per mission after the patch, that's for sure. If you only loot high-meta items today, you'll likely get a boost to income per mission after the patch, since there's more stuff you can cram into your hold that will be worth ISK. If you don't loot and salvage today, you'll see no difference. The specific intent of removing meta-0 items was to eliminate the minerals generated by mission-runners and ratters, so of course you'll see fewer minerals after Tyrannis is launched. If you're not currently looting meta-0 items, I expect you'll see an increase in income after the patch since you'll be able to cram all those tags into your hold - whatever they're worth, that's more than you were making before Tyrannis. My recent experience has been that blowing stuff up as fast as possible, picking up the loot that falls at my feet, and moving on to the next mission, makes me more ISK per hour than stopping in the mission space to loot and salvage. Once I get a marauder, the situation might change. [Aussie players: join channels ANZAC]
Musical Fist Gallente The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.13 07:00:00 - [35] Mineral prices are spiking, mainly Nocxium, I am certain the others will follow since mission runners wont be able to 'rat mine' much again. The demand will still be there but the supply will be heavily reduced, I see mission runners losing a small % from this as they stated. This is so not my main
Celia Therone	Posted - 2010.05.13 07:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Fuel Technician CCP taking away meta 0 items is going to be a big isk looser for mission runners, by far the best loot to get is large guns,they drop frequently and sell well, the meta 0 ones to be presise, look at the market buy orders for large neutron blaster cannons, they sell for around 1 mill isk, meta 1-3 sell for around 300k isk, with only the meta 4 items being worth more than the meta 0. you'd have to be mad to reprocess those but thats what CCP are assuming we all do. My feeling is that this may be a nerf for low skill mission runners that depend on mission loot for a fairly high proportion of their mission income but we'll have to wait and see what the relative worth of the replacements is compared to the meta 0 items. As to meta 0 guns... A large Neutron Blaster Cannon I reprocesses into: Isogen 2065 Megacyte 23 Mexallon 7752 Nocxium 292 Pyerite 21174 Tritanium 81960 Zydrine 8 Minerals are worth roughly 796k. Jita buy price for the item is 771k.
Silent Knight	Posted - 2010.05.13 08:35:00 - [37] A reduction in the vanilla/meta 0 items that drop which can be made from blueprints, looking like a nerf. The possibility of vanilla items which can be produced by low skilled/low entry barrier industry, looks like a boost for the meta 0 makers. Will have to see after the patch, but it looks like a shift to me.
Admiral Pelleon White Shadow Imperium Z.E.R.G	Posted - 2010.05.13 08:39:00 - [38] /me stockpiles huge amounts of minerals in jita, waiting to see what happens. ________ Chicago players channel: 'Windy City'
TwiggyHazz	Posted - 2010.05.13 08:52:00 - [39] Hmm hopefully this isnt 3/4 months marauder training I haven't wasted then... Anyway the OP mentioned AF buffs, I swear I have seen it before but if they could link it up or somthing?
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.05.13 09:14:00 - [40] This nerf adds to inflation, and this is why: Inflation happens, when the amount of money rises in comparison of the amount of good/services, that it represents. For example: in an economy there is 100 money and 100 goods, each piece of money represents 1 piece of good. If you now rise the money to 110, each good is represented by 1.1 money, we have an inflation. If you rise both to 110, each good still represents 1 money, we have growth. Before the change, missionrunners were adding money (bounties, mission rewards) and to some extent goods (mainly minerals from reprocessed loot) to the game. They contributed less to inflation, because the increase of goods somewhat alleviated the money increase. With the change there will be less increase of goods compared to the increase of money, therefore the inflation effect of missionrunning will increase. In addition to that, more missionrunners will stop to loot at all, and therefore kill more rats/time and receive more mission reward/time, which contributes to inflation even more. This way the update will increase inflation in 2 ways. That's a bad move imho.
nafiy gnaw	Posted - 2010.05.13 09:35:00 - [41] Noob question: Why are meta 0 item for large guns more expensive than meta 1-3? Because they are in demand for? Ganks?
Lord Yusheng	Posted - 2010.05.13 09:41:00 - [42] Originally by: nafiy gnaw Noob question: Why are meta 0 item for large guns more expensive than meta 1-3? Because they are in demand for? Ganks? Price is based on what it refines into. Best ISK / hour while missioning involves minimal salvage with a Marauder, so it's a barely worth noticing nerf if that's what you do. It's a nerf to those who go back and salvage wrecks (I do this, breaks the monotony of missioning on some of those long nights). Necessary change IMO.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.05.13 10:46:00 - [43] Edited by: Zartrader on 13/05/2010 10:50:06 Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o This nerf adds to inflation, and this is why: Inflation happens, when the amount of money rises in comparison of the amount of good/services, that it represents. For example: in an economy there is 100 money and 100 goods, each piece of money represents 1 piece of good. If you now rise the money to 110, each good is represented by 1.1 money, we have an inflation. If you rise both to 110, each good still represents 1 money, we have growth. Before the change, missionrunners were adding money (bounties, mission rewards) and to some extent goods (mainly minerals from reprocessed loot) to the game. They contributed less to inflation, because the increase of goods somewhat alleviated the money increase. With the change there will be less increase of goods compared to the increase of money, therefore the inflation effect of missionrunning will increase. In addition to that, more missionrunners will stop to loot at all, and therefore kill more rats/time and receive more mission reward/time, which contributes to inflation even more. This way the update will increase inflation in 2 ways. That's a bad move imho. Yes agree on the effect but the inflation is intended to offset the big deflation from the Insurance nerf and boost the price of minerals which will be badly affected by less ships blowing up. We have had deflation for some time as it is. Really CCP need to offer more ISK taps (faucets) though as the slightest change in mechanics like this has am impact difficult to actually quantify. It's easy knowing the effect, its much harder to know the extent of the effect. Lack of diversity is a big problem with EVE I think as any effect should be naturally balanced with alternatives. At the moment the idea of EVE as reflecting the overall real world economy is a joke except on a very superficial level.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.13 11:05:00 - [44] Originally by: Captain Mastiff Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Taedrin Originally by: Amberlamps Training something more (industrial/manufacturing skills) just so I can acquire cheap t1 modules for cheap pvp sounds like a nerf to me. Stealth "Minerals I mine are free" statement? More or less. No? Sounds like a nerf to me. How is it a nerf? They were never any cheaper just because he looted them, and he certainly never got them "for free" û he can get the exact same modules for the exact same price even with this change if they manage to balance the equivalent rewards right. In fact, chances are that mineral prices will go down due to the insurance changes, so the replacement stuff (and what he gets out of all the other loot) will be worth more and allow him to aquire more cheap T1 than before. Originally by: Zartrader I suspect many MR's are ignoring opportunity cost so if anything overall mission income may go up and some will wonder why they salvaged and looted in the first place. No need to suspect it û the above exchange proves it. Just because you're (the general "you", not you, Zar) no longer getting your "cheap T1 modules" directly from the rats doesn't mean they'll cost you any more after this change. Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Nowhere has it been stated that you get the equivalent mineral amounts or value in dogtags from the wrecks. Of course you won't get the same mineral amount û that's the whole point. You have no business producing minerals. What you'll get is stuff that allows you to buy those minerals (or the finished products) from people who actually have it as their profession to produce themà as it should be. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.05.13 11:34:00 - [45] Originally by: CCP Soundwave Edited by: CCP Soundwave on 12/05/2010 13:56:15 Just to clarify, this loot change is to a specific type of NPCs, so their loot changes regardless if they are found in a mission or in other content that shares npc type. Reading what you wrote "so their loot changes regardless if they are found in a mission or in other content that shares npc type" it seem that the only NPC that have changed are the mission NPC (the same that appear in encounter and exploration sites) and not the belt NPC. Is that true?
Ranka Mei Caldari	Posted - 2010.05.13 11:43:00 - [46] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 12/05/2010 13:11:01 Originally by: So Cash Yeh really Replacement of stuff with equivalent stuff ≠ nerf. The only "nerf" of sorts is that you won't be able to produce as much minerals or meta-0 items, and guess what, if you want to produce either of those you can always get into the professions that do so alreadyà so that's a good thing. 'Equivalent stuff'? Don't make me laugh! Crapmetal != 'equivalent stuff'. And what would I want with those stupid tags?! I just trained an alt for Scrapmetal Processing V, and all refinery skills to V, just so I could have her process mission loot. Thanks, CCP. It's a nerf, pure and simple. And why? Because the devs think everyone should be PvP-ing. They nerf missioning and up the rewards in 0.0 space (upgradable systems and such). It's a public secret they've always regarded the ~80% staying in high-sec as some sort of anomaly anyway. --
Scott Ryder Amarr Sisters of Korhal Terran Commonwealth	Posted - 2010.05.13 11:44:00 - [47] Originally by: Musical Fist Originally by: Drenan L4 missions have already been stealth nerfed repeatedly, namely by making them more difficult for anyone flying anything but a raven...I fly a raven so no real problem. Obvious troll or idiot, people assume the Raven is good purely because they can choose their damage type, I have flown all the BS, all the BC and all the Marauders and Golems / Ravens arent all that, Drakes are good for their tank but if I was going to pick a marauder / BS I would avoid Caldari altogether in PvE and PvP. Are you serius? I have some characters that are very nicely skilled into their respective maruders. A 10b isk fitted paladin barely compares to a 2b isk fitted golem.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.05.13 11:53:00 - [48] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o This nerf adds to inflation, and this is why: We definitely don't have inflation; you'd see rising prices with inflation (and they're falling and have basically reached insurance value cap). With insurance changes removing the artificial barrier holding mineral prices up, we would get yet more deflation without nerfing "mining with guns". Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Musical Fist Gallente The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.13 12:09:00 - [49] Originally by: Scott Ryder Originally by: Musical Fist Originally by: Drenan L4 missions have already been stealth nerfed repeatedly, namely by making them more difficult for anyone flying anything but a raven...I fly a raven so no real problem. Obvious troll or idiot, people assume the Raven is good purely because they can choose their damage type, I have flown all the BS, all the BC and all the Marauders and Golems / Ravens arent all that, Drakes are good for their tank but if I was going to pick a marauder / BS I would avoid Caldari altogether in PvE and PvP. Are you serius? I have some characters that are very nicely skilled into their respective maruders. A 10b isk fitted paladin barely compares to a 2b isk fitted golem. Then you are fitting it wrong or doing something wrong, even a navy domi is better than a Golem. Just think about it, surely I wont have to make another vid / thread about this again ;) This is so not my main
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.13 12:29:00 - [50] Originally by: Ranka Mei 'Equivalent stuff'? Don't make me laugh! Crapmetal != 'equivalent stuff'. And what would I want with those stupid tags?! You'd want to sell and reprocess them so you can buy the stuff you want. Thus making them equivalent to what you got before. Quote: I just trained an alt for Scrapmetal Processing V, and all refinery skills to V, just so I could have her process mission loot. Thanks, CCP. So? She can still do that just fineà unfortunately. Even so, have you considered offering your services in the mineral compression line of work? Quote: It's a nerf, pure and simple. And why? Because the devs think everyone should be PvP-ing. Not "should be" û "is". And they're right, even if some players don't quite grasp that fact Oh and as others have pointed out: if you're so hell-bent on getting all that loot, you're probably making far less money from your missions than you couldà ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Scott Ryder Amarr Sisters of Korhal Terran Commonwealth	Posted - 2010.05.13 14:06:00 - [51] Originally by: Musical Fist Originally by: Scott Ryder Originally by: Musical Fist Originally by: Drenan L4 missions have already been stealth nerfed repeatedly, namely by making them more difficult for anyone flying anything but a raven...I fly a raven so no real problem. Obvious troll or idiot, people assume the Raven is good purely because they can choose their damage type, I have flown all the BS, all the BC and all the Marauders and Golems / Ravens arent all that, Drakes are good for their tank but if I was going to pick a marauder / BS I would avoid Caldari altogether in PvE and PvP. Are you serius? I have some characters that are very nicely skilled into their respective maruders. A 10b isk fitted paladin barely compares to a 2b isk fitted golem. Then you are fitting it wrong or doing something wrong, even a navy domi is better than a Golem. Just think about it, surely I wont have to make another vid / thread about this again ;) Id like to see another thread about it please, we really need that. But in all honesty I dont care if i make 45 or 50 mil per hour running missions. If above statement is true ccp has done something wrong with maruders ;) And fyi, I just mentioned that the Paladin was way worse then the Golem. If we all flew the same ship eve wouldnt be a very cool game.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2010.05.13 14:22:00 - [52] I was supporting the removal of meta 0 from NPCs for a long time, I'm not sure if that's exactly what they're doing but... the fact is that looting in missions is barely worth doing right now, and even in only a few select missions is it worth the time it takes to loot. A mission loot nerf might seem like a great idea but it just makes missioning even more boring (if that's possible) if they do something to tip that balance from "barely worth doing" to "just plain not". But for the record, I only changed my sig because I was annoying myself with the last one.
Kimalag	Posted - 2010.05.13 14:34:00 - [53] Consider the ridiculousness of this... Loot reprocessing accounts for more minerals in the economy than mining. Let that sink in... This isn't a nerf. It's putting a little realism back into things. Minerals should come from mining. Its that simple. They weren't, soon they will be again. This is a pro-mining change. Woho!
Ranka Mei Caldari	Posted - 2010.05.13 15:07:00 - [54] Originally by: Kimalag Consider the ridiculousness of this... Loot reprocessing accounts for more minerals in the economy than mining. Let that sink in... This isn't a nerf. It's putting a little realism back into things. Minerals should come from mining. Its that simple. They weren't, soon they will be again. This is a pro-mining change. Woho! Fortunately, my indy alt is a miner, too. Still, what's wrong with wanting to reprocess stuff, but not wanting to waste tranining time on your main for it? Apart from the reprocessing, good ISK was to be made of them large lasers that dropped frequently. On a decent mission, you can easily get 10mil just from selling a few of the larger lasers. Granted, it's not a whole lot, but, along with salvage, still enough to bring the salvage alt along to pick up the loot. And now that stuff will be gone. Ergo, a nerf. Oh, and if CCP really want to help miners, then maybe they should do something about the zillian Russian macro-miners first. --
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Aeternus.	Posted - 2010.05.13 15:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Wolfgang Jager Not that I even run missions anymore (most boring thing in the whole game tbh); but this is a nerf to anyone who bothered to loot their wrecks. Just burning through the missions was already arguably the best way to make ISK and this will remove any question about it. Anything that removes options = nerf and is bad for the game so far as I am concerned. Sacrificing a bit of mission runner isk gain to make mining and t1 bpo prodution a viable option looks like a good trade to me. I see this a long needed buff for industry.
Napro Caldari Buccaneers of New Eden death from above..	Posted - 2010.05.13 15:41:00 - [56] Originally by: Musical Fist Then you are fitting it wrong or doing something wrong, even a navy domi is better than a Golem. Just think about it, surely I wont have to make another vid / thread about this again ;) Actually, you're wrong. Think about it
Musical Fist Gallente The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.13 16:31:00 - [57] Originally by: Napro Originally by: Musical Fist Then you are fitting it wrong or doing something wrong, even a navy domi is better than a Golem. Just think about it, surely I wont have to make another vid / thread about this again ;) Actually, you're wrong. Think about it Must be true if its on ~~CAOD~~ forums This is so not my main
digitalwanderer Gallente DF0 incorporated	Posted - 2010.05.13 16:40:00 - [58] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Drenan L4 missions have already been stealth nerfed repeatedly, namely by making them more difficult for anyone flying anything but a raven...I fly a raven so no real problem. Riiightà how so, in what way, and when did this happen? There was a time,a while ago admittedly,where you did an angel extravaganza lvl 4,including the bonus room,where you'd collect about 70+ million isk between the bounties,mission pay and bonus,module recovery and the angel retirement home had overseers effects worth 6 million. Not to mention that if you blew up the station in the bonus room,you'd be greeted with a 30 000 torpedos drop,which you could either keep for yourself,or sell them on the market. Oh yes,they were nerfed.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.13 16:43:00 - [59] Edited by: Tippia on 13/05/2010 16:44:20 Originally by: digitalwanderer There was a time,a while ago admittedly,where you did an angel extravaganza lvl 4,including the bonus room,where you'd collect about 70+ million isk between the bounties,mission pay and bonus,module recovery and the angel retirement home had overseers effects worth 6 million. Not to mention that if you blew up the station in the bonus room,you'd be greeted with a 30 000 torpedos drop,which you could either keep for yourself,or sell them on the market. Oh yes,they were nerfed. That's very nice and all, but this nerf your describe seems to have sfa to do with making it much easier for the Raven(kind) to do the mission compared to everything elseà so I'll have to ask again: how so, in what way, and when did this happen? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.05.13 16:48:00 - [60] @"It's Equivelant" Lets say your 0.0 bounties were replaced with tags. Tags that sell for like 10-50k each. "Oh, but you can still get isk, you just have to sell them. And you get less. But it's equivelant, because you still get something, and it's not impossible to get isk." Protip: They're losing a valuable drop for a worthless one. It's a nerf. Nothing else is being increased to compensate. ' Also: "But I don't even reprocess, I just sell for isk!" THE REASON PEOPLE BUY THEM IS SO -THEY- CAN REPROCESS THEM FOR MINERALS.
digitalwanderer Gallente DF0 incorporated	Posted - 2010.05.13 16:49:00 - [61] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 13/05/2010 16:44:20 Originally by: digitalwanderer There was a time,a while ago admittedly,where you did an angel extravaganza lvl 4,including the bonus room,where you'd collect about 70+ million isk between the bounties,mission pay and bonus,module recovery and the angel retirement home had overseers effects worth 6 million. Not to mention that if you blew up the station in the bonus room,you'd be greeted with a 30 000 torpedos drop,which you could either keep for yourself,or sell them on the market. Oh yes,they were nerfed. That's very nice and all, but this nerf your describe seems to have sfa to do with making it much easier for the Raven(kind) to do the mission compared to everything elseà so I'll have to ask again: how so, in what way, and when did this happen? I'm not taking about doing it with a specific ship at all....Simply the Isk you could make in a mission,admittedly the hardest lvl 4 one the the game if you include the bonus room,regardless of the ship you chose to use to complete it in. Today,that same mission pays maybe 30 million isk total if you do the bonus room,so it's only half of what it used to...They've been nerfed.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.13 16:52:00 - [62] Edited by: Tippia on 13/05/2010 16:54:33 Originally by: digitalwanderer I'm not taking about doing it with a specific ship at all.... No, but the question I was asking had to do with that. Since you quoted me, I kind of assumed that you were trying to answer that questionà Quote: Today,that same mission pays maybe 30 million isk total When I did it yesterday, it was some 20M in bounties and rewards alone, without even touching the bonus room; another 10M in LP; no idea how much the loot and salvage was worthà so it's a fair bit more than that. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
digitalwanderer Gallente DF0 incorporated	Posted - 2010.05.13 16:58:00 - [63] Edited by: digitalwanderer on 13/05/2010 17:01:36 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: digitalwanderer I'm not taking about doing it with a specific ship at all.... No, but the question I was asking had to do with that. Since you quoted me, I kind of assumed that you were trying to answer that questionà I was answering to the original topic,and wether or not it'll result in a further nerf or not,but you did ask if missions got nerfed in the past and when if i'm not mistaken,and i gave an example of it. Anyhow,with the removal of items that were usually intended to be melted to produce minerals,and the upcoming changes coming that enhances the loot that's worth selling on the market,and given the amount of missions running on the average day,won't that ultimately mean those modules are going to drop in value,given that they'll be much more of them available on the market?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.13 17:07:00 - [64] Originally by: digitalwanderer I was answering to the original topic,and wether or not it'll result in a further nerf or not,but you did ask if missions got nerfed in the past and when if i'm not mistaken,and i gave an example of it. You are mistaken. Look at the post where the question was made; look at what I quoted: Quote: L4 missions have already been stealth nerfed repeatedly, namely by making them more difficult for anyone flying anything but a raven... àto which I repliedà Quote: Riiightà how so, in what way, and when did this happen? "This" refers back to the claim that "missions got stealth nerfed by making them more difficult for non-Ravens". ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
digitalwanderer Gallente DF0 incorporated	Posted - 2010.05.13 17:22:00 - [65] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: digitalwanderer I was answering to the original topic,and wether or not it'll result in a further nerf or not,but you did ask if missions got nerfed in the past and when if i'm not mistaken,and i gave an example of it. You are mistaken. Look at the post where the question was made; look at what I quoted: Quote: L4 missions have already been stealth nerfed repeatedly, namely by making them more difficult for anyone flying anything but a raven... àto which I repliedà Quote: Riiightà how so, in what way, and when did this happen? "This" refers back to the claim that "missions got stealth nerfed by making them more difficult for non-Ravens". My mistake then....But still,isk wise,even though lvl 4 missions are still extremely good money makers,some did get nerfed pretty badly on the isk front from what they were in the past. As for the difficulty issue,i've done all the missions with pretty much every ship in the game,and while there was a point doing them with a raven in the early years,specifically before the missile re-balancing patch,where signature radius and explosion velocity became factors and pilots couldn't do full damage to frigates anymore,for wich there was much whining on the forums(of course),i haven't paid much attention. I've even done that angel extra,including the bonus room,with a T2 command ship,a lazor one at that(damnation),and still pulled it off,so there's hardly any challenge anymore.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.05.13 17:40:00 - [66] Originally by: Ranka Mei Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 12/05/2010 13:11:01 Originally by: So Cash Because the devs think everyone should be PvP-ing. They nerf missioning and up the rewards in 0.0 space (upgradable systems and such). It's a public secret they've always regarded the ~80% staying in high-sec as some sort of anomaly anyway. What do you do with all of the loot from the missions if you don't pvp? Sounds like you actually like running missions for the fun of it. Thats hard for me to imagine given the visually stimulative and varied content you would get from moving between other online pve games. Will that keep you interested in the game more than 6 months? Also, it doesn't sound like even if you are not an pvp'r you don't like the other competitive areas of the game either. Trading (there is lots of trading outside of the hubs even if they account for 70% of the volue.that other 30% is huge), and manufactoring for profit above and beyond the market price of the components.
Daemonspirit Redhawk Tribal Trust	Posted - 2010.05.13 18:25:00 - [67] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Zartrader I suspect many MR's are ignoring opportunity cost so if anything overall mission income may go up and some will wonder why they salvaged and looted in the first place. No need to suspect it û the above exchange proves it. Just because you're (the general "you", not you, Zar) no longer getting your "cheap T1 modules" directly from the rats doesn't mean they'll cost you any more after this change. So, looting them (paying nothing) = buying them off the market? If they didn't have to be purchased they are "free", especially when the act of looting is a secondary activity to the main activity (missioning in this case). The only way they could not cost more is if they are seeded on the market for free... As far as opportunity cost goes, I would hazard that most players in game don't consider opportunity cost as any kind of issue, because the opportunity cost that matters was decided when the game was purchased (and the decision made) to play the game... Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Nowhere has it been stated that you get the equivalent mineral amounts or value in dogtags from the wrecks. Of course you won't get the same mineral amount û that's the whole point. You have no business producing minerals. What you'll get is stuff that allows you to buy those minerals (or the finished products) from people who actually have it as their profession to produce themà as it should be. You've missed an important part of his statement - the question of whether or not "crap-metal" and tags are going to = the value of the (no longer) dropped mods. If the goods replacing the removed mods don't equal (on average) the value of the items removed - its a nerf. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.13 18:39:00 - [68] Originally by: Daemonspirit So, looting them (paying nothing) = buying them off the market? The end result is the same: Looting them → stuff appears in your cargo hold → dump stuff in hangar. Looting other stuff → selling it → buying stuff → stuff appears in your hangar. Quote: If they didn't have to be purchased they are "free", especially when the act of looting is a secondary activity to the main activity (missioning in this case). They're free in the exact same sense as the modules will be free after this change: you will see no dip in your wallet after you've acquired the stuff compared to before you started looting. Quote: You've missed an important part of his statement - the question of whether or not "crap-metal" and tags are going to = the value of the (no longer) dropped mods. If the goods replacing the removed mods don't equal (on average) the value of the items removed - its a nerf. Sure, but that's the neat thing: it can just as well be a buff. The player driven market decides; PvP becomes a factor; and which way it goes is now tied more closely to the professions that are supposed to generate minerals and items (miners and industrialists). All of these are good things. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Daemonspirit Redhawk Tribal Trust	Posted - 2010.05.13 18:55:00 - [69] Originally by: Tippia The end result is the same: Looting them → stuff appears in your cargo hold → dump stuff in hangar. Looting other stuff → selling it → buying stuff → stuff appears in your hangar. /facepalm... I don't know if your being deliberately obtuse, or really didn't get what I posted. If you (the generic you) have to go to the market, its not "free". That's all I'm saying. bah, I understand what your saying Tip (and tbqh - I agree that miners and t-0- industrialists need the buff) but, even allowing for your loot -> sell -> buy -> stuff appears formula, do you really believe that crapmetal and tags are going to = meta 0 guns/lasers/rails? That's what people mean when they say its a nerf... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.13 19:03:00 - [70] Originally by: Daemonspirit I don't know if your being deliberately obtuse, or really didn't get what I posted. If you (the generic you) have to go to the market, its not "free". That's all I'm saying. Again, both are free in the exact same way: they cost you nothing compared to what you had before you started looting. Quote: bah, I understand what your saying Tip (and tbqh - I agree that miners and t-0- industrialists need the buff) but, even allowing for your loot -> sell -> buy -> stuff appears formula, do you really believe that crapmetal and tags are going to = meta 0 guns/lasers/rails? That's what people mean when they say its a nerf... If they add it in right, then sure. If people call this a nerf because they don't understand the opportunity cost/inherent value in what they loot, then that's their problem û they're feeling nerfed because they're stupid, and I have no issues with that û in fact, I'd like to see more of it so I can laugh at them even more. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Ranka Mei Caldari	Posted - 2010.05.13 21:49:00 - [71] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Originally by: Ranka Mei Originally by: Tippia Originally by: So Cash Because the devs think everyone should be PvP-ing. They nerf missioning and up the rewards in 0.0 space (upgradable systems and such). It's a public secret they've always regarded the ~80% staying in high-sec as some sort of anomaly anyway. What do you do with all of the loot from the missions if you don't pvp? Sounds like you actually like running missions for the fun of it. Mission running is a huge pillar of the EVE economy, as it funds many a PvP lifestyle, whether PvP-er are willing to admit that or not. You can only afford to lose ships regularly if you have a steady income. Despite claims of untold heroism and piracy, most folk really just make money by running missions regularly. That's why nerfing lv 4 missions is a bad, short-sighted thing: no income, no PvP. Or put more mildly: lesser income, lesser incentive to go PvP. Yes, some folks make money ganking and such; but, eventually, someone has to pay for all these goodies in the first place. So, CCP would do well to keep mechanism in place to make relatively easy money. That way people can afford to lose a ship or two in PvP. Currently I don't PvP yet, no. Missioning and having set up an indy alt is just for ensuring that I have a steady source of income later, for when I can fly the things to go PvP. --
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.05.13 22:28:00 - [72] Originally by: Ranka Mei Currently I don't PvP yet, no. Missioning and having set up an indy alt is just for ensuring that I have a steady source of income later, for when I can fly the things to go PvP. You don't need much of a steady income stream when you first start PvP:ing û frigates, cruiser and even the odd BC cost next to nothing to buy and fit. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Aeternus.	Posted - 2010.05.15 13:22:00 - [73] Originally by: Ranka Mei Mission running is a huge pillar of the EVE economy, as it funds many a PvP lifestyle, whether PvP-er are willing to admit that or not. You can only afford to lose ships regularly if you have a steady income. Despite claims of untold heroism and piracy, most folk really just make money by running missions regularly. That's why nerfing lv 4 missions is a bad, short-sighted thing: no income, no PvP. Or put more mildly: lesser income, lesser incentive to go PvP. Yes, some folks make money ganking and such; but, eventually, someone has to pay for all these goodies in the first place. So, CCP would do well to keep mechanism in place to make relatively easy money. That way people can afford to lose a ship or two in PvP. Currently I don't PvP yet, no. Missioning and having set up an indy alt is just for ensuring that I have a steady source of income later, for when I can fly the things to go PvP. Hi I own several T1 BPOs that are fully researched. I bought them years ago and they have never been used. Why? Because thanks to loot from missions they are either worthless and make a loss or damn near useless. This nerf is hopefully going to be my buff and a very good thing for people who want to get into the industrial side of the game.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2010.05.15 15:16:00 - [74] Originally by: baltec1 Hi I own several T1 BPOs that are fully researched. I bought them years ago and they have never been used. Why? Because thanks to loot from missions they are either worthless and make a loss or damn near useless. This nerf is hopefully going to be my buff and a very good thing for people who want to get into the industrial side of the game. I don't think it'll actually change much. Sure, it might create more opportunity... but who uses meta 0 these days? People who don't know any better? Most meta 1-2s are common and relatively cheap (often cheaper than meta 0 due to mineral comp). If there is a market for meta 0 at all it's probably from those who just want to buy it cheap and reprocess it, and that market is going bye-bye. Before T2 became commonplace this would have been a much bigger deal. But for the record, I only changed my sig because I was annoying myself with the last one.
Hainnz Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.05.15 15:52:00 - [75] Originally by: Wet Ferret Sure, it might create more opportunity... but who uses meta 0 these days? All T2 items require a T1 item to build, so for starters anyone using or building T2 items. A lot of people out pvping still use T1 ships & fits, as well.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Aeternus.	Posted - 2010.05.15 16:02:00 - [76] Originally by: Wet Ferret I don't think it'll actually change much. Sure, it might create more opportunity... but who uses meta 0 these days? People who don't know any better? Most meta 1-2s are common and relatively cheap (often cheaper than meta 0 due to mineral comp). If there is a market for meta 0 at all it's probably from those who just want to buy it cheap and reprocess it, and that market is going bye-bye. Before T2 became commonplace this would have been a much bigger deal. T1 is still in good demand so there is a market for the stuff. Hopefully over the next month T1 prices will rise far enough to make it worthwhile to build and my gamble will pay off.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.05.16 07:04:00 - [77] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Wet Ferret I don't think it'll actually change much. Sure, it might create more opportunity... but who uses meta 0 these days? People who don't know any better? Most meta 1-2s are common and relatively cheap (often cheaper than meta 0 due to mineral comp). If there is a market for meta 0 at all it's probably from those who just want to buy it cheap and reprocess it, and that market is going bye-bye. Before T2 became commonplace this would have been a much bigger deal. T1 is still in good demand so there is a market for the stuff. Hopefully over the next month T1 prices will rise far enough to make it worthwhile to build and my gamble will pay off. It is not a generalized removal but only some meta 0 items, those that have the largest impact on reprocessing in CCP eyes (and that mean that the removed items could be those most commonly constructed for mineral compression instead of those commonly dropped). It open some possibility but I think that most inventors/T2 builder would use a slot (probably one of the slots of a less skilled alt) to build the meta 0 items they need instead that hauling them around from where the producer build them. I usually build several hundred modules/teens of ships in one go and when they are almost depleted I start building another batch. Unless some builder was capable to "advertise" his large meta 0 production in a useful location (i.e. near my production location) I would not spend my time hauling meta 0 items.
Penjual Sayur	Posted - 2010.05.16 08:27:00 - [78] IMO, CCP should remove all base mods from looting table.
Pelsson Amarr SL0W DEATH	Posted - 2010.05.16 11:33:00 - [79] They can nerf lvl4's in high sec I've been doing mission in h.s for some time and from my view of point. I'm getting way to much isk for no risk...
Scaldari Anitoba Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.05.16 13:10:00 - [80] Originally by: Pelsson They can nerf lvl4's in high sec I've been doing mission in h.s for some time and from my view of point. I'm getting way to much isk for no risk... I would not Say no risk. You can still be war dec'd.. but the most evil adversary any mission runner has is falling asleep.. dont know how many ships ive lost that way ;). but esp when you get out into nul sec and start laying down your BS in lagfleets where if they target you, your dead.. the "easy" isk of mission runnign becomes very slow..... ######################### Fame, or Infamy. Just depends on which side writes the history. Regardless, to be remembered is to be immortal. I wish you all Immortality.
Zeke Mobius	Posted - 2010.05.16 13:24:00 - [81] Nerf all missions everywhere!!!!

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