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Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.05.21 23:56:00 - [1] This is truly meant as a question and based on the fact that my maths suck. Given that Golem has 2 missile "tracking" bonuses (missile explosion velocity) and TP (explosion radius)mBonus, would a pilot with maxed skills do more ACTUAL damage using a Golem over Navy Raven Issue? For argument sake I assume the Golem has 2x T2 Rigor rigs, 2x T2 painters, 4x CN Ballistic controls and using Rage Cruise Ammo. RNI has 2x T2 Rigor rigs, 1x Ti Rigor rigs, 2x T2 painters, 4x CN Ballistic controls and also using Rage Cruise Ammo. I know that the NRI's ROF bonus makes it a better damage dealer on paper but wonder if the Golem is better in actual use due to its bonuses? I plan to try this out on test server using both ships once I have the skills (3 weeks), but I wonder if anyone else has tested the two using cruise missiles? Patri I'll Roshambo you for that Titan
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.05.22 00:37:00 - [2] Originally by: Patri Andari I know that the NRI's ROF bonus makes it a better damage dealer on paper but wonder if the Golem is better in actual use due to its bonuses? Short answer: No. Long answer: missile damage spreadsheet ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.22 01:12:00 - [3] Why in gods name would u use TP's on a cruise golem? Torps yes but about as useful as warp stabs on that fit.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.22 01:22:00 - [4] Originally by: Zill Why in gods name would u use TP's on a cruise golem? Torps yes but about as useful as warp stabs on that fit. You're wrong. I would definitely use painters, because it means you get damn near perfect damage penetration even disregarding rigors. This can mean you use other more useful rigs - such as a T2 ROF rig... -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.22 01:39:00 - [5] I guess we do things differently. My golem's had a great deal of isk poured into them :( an I would never use TP because its simply not needed. Rigor II's an a CCC is all you need, sometimes you can even ditch the CCC, but I didn't. Golems 117k range + instant kill of (standard) frigs at range, meant it really was a battleship. Just lacked a enough tank for my liking.
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.05.22 01:48:00 - [6] Originally by: stoicfaux Originally by: Patri Andari I know that the NRI's ROF bonus makes it a better damage dealer on paper but wonder if the Golem is better in actual use due to its bonuses? Short answer: No. Long answer: missile damage spreadsheet Thanks for the link to the spreadsheet although i am wary of spreadsheet/EFT results as opposed to actual field tests. Would love to hear from folks who have actually fitted at least 2x TP and 1 or 2 Rigors on a Cruise Golem using Rage Cruise Missiles. Once I have the skills trained I will report my results here. Patri I'll Roshambo you for that Titan
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.05.22 01:55:00 - [7] Originally by: Zill I guess we do things differently. My golem's had a great deal of isk poured into them :( an I would never use TP because its simply not needed. Rigor II's an a CCC is all you need, sometimes you can even ditch the CCC, but I didn't. Golems 117k range + instant kill of (standard) frigs at range, meant it really was a battleship. Just lacked a enough tank for my liking. Are you using standard cruise missiles or Rage? Patri I'll Roshambo you for that Titan
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.22 01:57:00 - [8] I only use Faction cruise, T2 Cruise is junk
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.22 04:12:00 - [9] Fury cruise is hardly junk when it consistently delivers more DPS than faction across a fairly wide range of targets. The painter bonus on a Golem is really strong. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.22 05:28:00 - [10] Sorry mate, but while fury has a tiny bit more dps it constantly under performs against faction cruise. T2 have been broken for as long as I can remember. (you don't think I would spend 4.6 billion on a Golem, an then fit it with substandard launchers :)
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.22 06:38:00 - [11] Originally by: Zill (you don't think I would spend 4.6 billion on a Golem, an then fit it with substandard launchers :) Considering that I just said that Fury Cruise is (at least sometimes) a better choice, and you aren't using it... -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.05.22 07:10:00 - [12] On t2 cruise launchers probably, but how about navy launchers? Or more expensive ones? Btw it is CNR, not RNI.
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.22 07:46:00 - [13] Navy launchers are fine. actually good with the 2 second increase. After them you start getting into serious money. 4 Estamel launchers will cost you....3.2b each roughly. then you will want 4 Estamel BCU's 3b each 2 Estamel Invulns (these guys alone will mark you as a primary target for every aspiring pirate in eve)... 15B each IF you can find them. As you can see the prices get pretty crazy. but if you do go that route, you'll have one hell of a ship, as long as you can keep it secret.
Khin'charin Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.05.22 14:58:00 - [14] Cruise Missiles are so 2008... Wellcome to Post-patch dominion and selective autocannon damage paired with module falloff bonuses. - I run L4's in my rifter
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.05.22 15:35:00 - [15] Originally by: Zill Sorry mate, but while fury has a tiny bit more dps it constantly under performs against faction cruise. T2 have been broken for as long as I can remember. (you don't think I would spend 4.6 billion on a Golem, an then fit it with substandard launchers :) Are you fitting it with target painters of any kind? Fury plus a few target painters will kill battleships faster than CN missiles, especially fat, slow ones such as Guristas. As for your credibility concerning substandard launchers: * you spent 4.6 billion on a cruise Golem instead of a cruise CNR * you had 4.6 billion to spend, so looting plus salvaging couldn't be that important * inside of 60km, a Golem with javelin torps will kill faster than a cruise Golem ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Hyey	Posted - 2010.05.22 17:30:00 - [16] People fly cruise golems? Why? One of like 5 ships in the game with an explosion velocity bonus to Torpedos and you use cruise missiles? I... I don't understand. ~~ Hyey
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.05.22 18:57:00 - [17] Edited by: Furb Killer on 22/05/2010 18:57:44 Mainly because it doesnt have that bonus only to torps.
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.22 23:22:00 - [18] Originally by: stoicfaux Originally by: Zill Sorry mate, but while fury has a tiny bit more dps it constantly under performs against faction cruise. T2 have been broken for as long as I can remember. (you don't think I would spend 4.6 billion on a Golem, an then fit it with substandard launchers :) Are you fitting it with target painters of any kind? Fury plus a few target painters will kill battleships faster than CN missiles, especially fat, slow ones such as Guristas. As for your credibility concerning substandard launchers: * you spent 4.6 billion on a cruise Golem instead of a cruise CNR * you had 4.6 billion to spend, so looting plus salvaging couldn't be that important * inside of 60km, a Golem with javelin torps will kill faster than a cruise Golem I dont salvage or loot mate, faster to blitz, Torp Golems are crazy dps it's true, but only on BS, an the limited range of torps is ****. My cruise actually out range my targeting skill, so at 117k's I am maxed out but its still good
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.22 23:32:00 - [19] Originally by: Zill I dont salvage or loot mate, faster to blitz, Torp Golems are crazy dps it's true, but only on BS, an the limited range of torps is ***. My cruise actually out range my targeting skill, so at 117k's I am maxed out but its still good Comments: - The Golem isn't slowed down by salvaging or looting. That's what those extra three high slots are for. - The Torp Golem is far* faster than a Tengu in many many missions. It has straight higher DPS, similar damage application, and the range isn't a problem. Adding that you don't have to reload to faction missiles to shoot frigs - or shoot them at all? - Shooting 120km is useful in, I think, a total of 2 missions. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.22 23:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Zill I dont salvage or loot mate, faster to blitz, Torp Golems are crazy dps it's true, but only on BS, an the limited range of torps is ***. My cruise actually out range my targeting skill, so at 117k's I am maxed out but its still good Comments: - The Golem isn't slowed down by salvaging or looting. That's what those extra three high slots are for. - The Torp Golem is far* faster than a Tengu in many many missions. It has straight higher DPS, similar damage application, and the range isn't a problem. Adding that you don't have to reload to faction missiles to shoot frigs - or shoot them at all? - Shooting 120km is useful in, I think, a total of 2 missions. -Liang I only ever use my tractors if I want to gather wrecks in for other sot loot, otherwise they just sit there. Torp golem is indeed faster on battleships, but the ship is less than half the speed of a stock Tengu, an I don't like sitting in place for gankers to jump me. I stay moving usually 50-100ks off the gate to stop getting jumped. Shooting range is of limited use I agree, but there are quite a few missions you can kill at 80ks down to 60ks then out to 110ks. Point is it's there an of use. My tengu holds entire rooms then focus son the trigger ships/mission ship an gets gone. there's a few lvl 4s I wouldn't dare try that in a Golem. Not only because it leaves you wide open to getting suicide killed.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.22 23:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Zill I only ever use my tractors if I want to gather wrecks in for other sot loot, otherwise they just sit there. Congratulations, you left 20% of your mission's value on the floor for no reason other than ignorance. Quote: Torp golem is indeed faster on battleships No, its pretty well faster on everything from frigs to battleships. It doesn't even have to target frigs so T=0, and cruisers through battleships get 1-3 volleyed depending. Quote: an I don't like sitting in place for gankers to jump me. The crazy crazy thing about it is that if you don't fit super crazy expensive stuff to your ship then nobody's going to gank you. The other super duper crazy thing is that you get 80km from the exit gate - when you started the mission on top of it! More effort, less reward. I guess the win is that it's more "fun". -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.23 00:06:00 - [22] Edited by: Zill on 23/05/2010 00:18:24 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Zill I only ever use my tractors if I want to gather wrecks in for other sot loot, otherwise they just sit there. Congratulations, you left 20% of your mission's value on the floor for no reason other than ignorance. Quote: Torp golem is indeed faster on battleships No, its pretty well faster on everything from frigs to battleships. It doesn't even have to target frigs so T=0, and cruisers through battleships get 1-3 volleyed depending. Quote: an I don't like sitting in place for gankers to jump me. The crazy crazy thing about it is that if you don't fit super crazy expensive stuff to your ship then nobody's going to gank you. The other super duper crazy thing is that you get 80km from the exit gate - when you started the mission on top of it! More effort, less reward. I guess the win is that it's more "fun". -Liang 1. I dont "NEED" to loot 2.Again your trying to tell me how to suck eggs ??. I am VERY well versed on how eve works an how to run a mission to my benefit, the fact Forum warriors don't like you bucking their trends is of huge amusement to me, but since you seem to want to revert to C&P tactics I guess we can call each "noob" an "go back to wow" if you choose. Though I have to say I am a little old for such silliness. 3.Looting is just fine for those who need it, I don't. I have more fun taking newbies into a level 4's an letting them bang away at **** while I tank an kill, then give them the loot.
Reah Loth Caldari Skies Tis Moiras Amici Noctis	Posted - 2010.05.23 01:24:00 - [23] The thread is about whats best. Whether you like to carry people in your lvl4's or how much you need or don't need to loot is pretty irrelevant. I don't know if a cruise cnr beats a cruise golem, but the fact of the matter is, if you want to use a golem, go torps!
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.05.23 01:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Zill 1. I dont "NEED" to loot Then why not fly a CNR? It's a better cruise platform than a Golem. (CNR effectively has 9.33 launchers to the Golem's 8, plus an extra rigor rig.) Quote: 2.Again your trying to tell me how to suck eggs ??. I am VERY well versed on how eve works an how to run a mission to my benefit, the fact Forum warriors don't like you bucking their trends is of huge amusement to me, but since you seem to want to revert to C&P tactics I guess we can call each "noob" an "go back to wow" if you choose. Though I have to say I am a little old for such silliness. Nah, it's just that you made some pretty bold statements, statements that most folks consider to be wrong, where wrong as defined as doesn't match the numbers and/or personal experience. Fury missiles plus target painters really do do more damage than CN ammo. A torp Golem with 2-3 target painters can actually do as much damage to cruiser sized targets as a cruise CNR. A cruise Golem really is "inferior" to a cruise CNR or to a torp Golem (when the ranges are Javelin torp friendly.) Quote: 3.Looting is just fine for those who need it, I don't. I have more fun taking newbies into a level 4's an letting them bang away at ** while I tank an kill, then give them the loot. It sounds like you're using a cruise Golem for the uber tank and using the explosion velocity bonus to justify running a target painter-less fit instead of maximizing DPS by using a Cruise CNR or a Fury Golem. Which is fine, since fun is in the eye of the beholder. If you can post some numbers that show how a faction cruise Golem redefines conventional wisdom, then please do so. A surprising number of Eve forum/EFT ***s will accept new ideas if they have good supporting data. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.23 02:10:00 - [25] eh that's too much like work mate, I can give you mission times, an hell I could even count the exact number of missiles used per kill per mission. I can lay out my fitting. But above that, all I can say is try it. Fit my ships the way I fit them, an see how you go. I don't try an say "my way" is the way to play at all, as I have already said everyone plays their way. I just happen to think mine is good.
NoNah	Posted - 2010.05.23 04:05:00 - [26] What's ironic about the cruise golem is how badly everything fits eachother. It gets massive range, so that it takes less damage, which doesn't really matter as it kills things at range before they deal alot of damage anyway. It's easier to fit, allowing a better tank, which.. doesn't really matter as it doesn't have any reason to pull aggro in the first place. It gets longer range, so that it can outrange it's own bonuses. Anyway, zill, you mentioned you can and could ppst missiontimes and fittngs. Please do. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 715188
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.23 04:58:00 - [27] Edited by: Zill on 23/05/2010 05:02:02 soon a is have time, ill go do a mish an post damage v ship name an total time but from memory, I do Damsel in tengu in 15 mins AE 4 in 45 mins silence the informant, 15-20 mins prolly less, but I cant remember. most mish are run in 20 mins except for AE
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.23 08:31:00 - [28] IIRC I blast through Damsel in 6-7 minutes... maybe we should get some real times up in here. ;-) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Dread Phantom Caldari End Game.	Posted - 2010.05.23 12:08:00 - [29] im more supprised at 45 mins for AE
Zill The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.23 12:11:00 - [30] Edited by: Zill on 23/05/2010 12:15:25 he asked for realistic times, I gave them. I always kill everything in damsel instead of blitzing, or els it would only take me 5 min too. As for AE, I am in no rush, I chat an surf net while playing. Liang I get your prolly just trying to get a rise out of me mate :), but my times are fact. I am quite happy with them. 2 Tengus will do AE in under 30 min's (inc bonus room) taking their time. solo is 45. bu the way, I did as you "sugested" tonight I ran damsel an The Score with DG Web an it was a waste of my time utterly. Since I use a T2 Rigor Tengu with T2 Heavy's "Scourge" I wouldn't waste my time with a painter.

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