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Mercurye Nubian Sundance	Posted - 2010.05.25 16:44:00 - [61] Edited by: Mercurye on 25/05/2010 16:45:22 I love the leisure of my Tengu, even if its a bit slower than my Golem Golem is a little more interactive so if you are in a lazy mood (like I am most of the time lately) Cruise Raven/Tengu would be my preference ~~~~~~~~~~Sade~~~~~~~~~~ I'm a Soldier of Love, all the days in my life
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.25 16:45:00 - [62] Originally by: stoicfaux It's with drone DPS. Duries Kain's post about not including drone DPS is confusing you. You need to include drone DPS in those numbers since the Tengu fitting doesn't have drones, and the CNR's ability to kill frigs with drones will killing big stuff with cruise missiles (plus sentry DPS if the frigs are gone) is an advantage. I'm 99.999% certain that the 838 DPS number does not in fact include drones. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.05.25 16:52:00 - [63] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: stoicfaux It's with drone DPS. Duries Kain's post about not including drone DPS is confusing you. You need to include drone DPS in those numbers since the Tengu fitting doesn't have drones, and the CNR's ability to kill frigs with drones will killing big stuff with cruise missiles (plus sentry DPS if the frigs are gone) is an advantage. I'm 99.999% certain that the 838 DPS number does not in fact include drones. -Liang It doesn't. You can get to nearly 1000 dps on a Cruise CNR if you exclude reloads, include implants and include drones. The 820 DPS exactly matches the figures of my own Cruise CNR. PL TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.05.25 17:12:00 - [64] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: stoicfaux It's with drone DPS. Duries Kain's post about not including drone DPS is confusing you. You need to include drone DPS in those numbers since the Tengu fitting doesn't have drones, and the CNR's ability to kill frigs with drones will killing big stuff with cruise missiles (plus sentry DPS if the frigs are gone) is an advantage. I'm 99.999% certain that the 838 DPS number does not in fact include drones. -Liang Doh! You're right. I didn't have the implants factored in. Oh the irony. On a "aren't numbers cute?" side note, it's 838 DPS with implants but no drones, and 839 DPS with drones but no implants. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Hyey	Posted - 2010.05.25 21:02:00 - [65] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 22/05/2010 18:57:44 Mainly because it doesnt have that bonus only to torps. Yea but a CNR does cruise missiles so much better I think that's been empirically proven. Golems were made for torpedoes. ~~ Hyey
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.05.27 01:25:00 - [66] Originally by: Hyey Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 22/05/2010 18:57:44 Mainly because it doesnt have that bonus only to torps. Yea but a CNR does cruise missiles so much better I think that's been empirically proven. Golems were made for torpedoes. Has it been empirically proven? After 3 pages I have yet to find one to person post from experience under the conditions I stated in the OP. That is to say, some one with max or near max skills using 2x T2 Rigors, 2x high meta painters and Fury cruise on a Golem to see if it can deliver more actual damage on a target than the EFT damage of a RNI. I do not argue that it does or does not, but I have not seem empirical evidence one way or another. With the Golem's bonuses to explosion velocity and explosion radius (applied to painters) it seems possible that despite having less EFT damage it may have less of its damage mitigated than a NRI. I plan to test once I have the skills, just wondered if any one has tried it. If this has been proven under the stated conditions I would appreciate a link to any such post. Thanks Patri I'll Roshambo you for that Titan
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.05.27 03:49:00 - [67] Originally by: Patri Andari Has it been empirically proven? After 3 pages I have yet to find one to person post from experience under the conditions I stated in the OP. That is to say, some one with max or near max skills using 2x T2 Rigors, 2x high meta painters and Fury cruise on a Golem to see if it can deliver more actual damage on a target than the EFT damage of a RNI. I do not argue that it does or does not, but I have not seem empirical evidence one way or another. With the Golem's bonuses to explosion velocity and explosion radius (applied to painters) it seems possible that despite having less EFT damage it may have less of its damage mitigated than a NRI. I plan to test once I have the skills, just wondered if any one has tried it. If this has been proven under the stated conditions I would appreciate a link to any such post. Take a T2 cruise CNR with 3xRigor Is using Fury missiles plus 5% implants firing at a Pith Eliminator at orbit velocity. Slap those numbers into the Missile Damage Formulas and you get: MF1 = sig/Er = 460/240.7 = 191.1% MF2 = (Ev/Ersig/vel)^(log(drf)/log(5.5)) = (91.35/240.7 460/140)^(log(4.7)/log(5.5)) = 122.2% Damage caps at 100%. If a CNR can do 100% damage with 3xRigors, no target painters, and no Golem like explosion velocity bonus, then a cruise CNR can do more damage than a cruise Golem due to the CNR's RoF bonus. And here is why people keep stating that a torp Golem is the only way to go: A maxed out Golem can achieve 100% damage using torpedoes against a Pith Eliminator without a TP... 0 TP - MF1=102.2% MF2=101.9% 1 TP - MF1=154.9% MF2=151.0% 2 TP - MF1=197.4% MF2=189.8% 3 TP - MF1=270.4% MF2=255.4% Torpedoes do more damage than cruise fury missiles and torp launchers have a faster RoF than cruise launchers. A torp Golem with 2-3 TPs can easily hit for full damage against battleships, and can also kill cruisers about as fast as a cruise CNR. So if a torp golem can do 100% damage, then a cruise Golem can easily do 100% damage with Fury cruise missiles without rigor rigs. A cruise golem is a "waste of time" because it is limited to max cruise missile damage which is much less than max torpedo damage. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Unit ADA	Posted - 2010.05.27 04:16:00 - [68] I am considering about getting a CNR, but do I have to pay 280-300 million for 7 Caldari Navy Cruise Launchers to make it good? I was thinking about going tech 2 and using tech 2 furies for battleships, but I heard from others that Furies do poor damage to battleships due to low explosion velocity. I want to make my ship less of a Gank Bait meaning no 1.5 billion Gist X-type X-large Boosters, no CN invuls. I will however pay for faction ballistic controls, XL booster and a amplifier since they free up a great deal of CPU.
Carniflex StarHunt	Posted - 2010.05.27 10:05:00 - [69] Mission NPC, other than select very few (spider drones) do not travel at speeds where Golems explosion bouns would be more useful than 3rd Rigor rig in CNR. In the speeds you see in missions the Rigor makes your missile to do more damage to your targets. On top of CNR's higher base dps. Granted volley damage is often more important than theoretical on paper dps. And Golems painter bonus does have also notcieable effect. In real missions Golem and CNR are more or less on equal footing with advantage on CNR in some missions and in Golem in others. When you really pimp it then CNR will have small edge, say roughly in the ballpark of 5%. Golem can get away with just T2.
Trebizon Dante	Posted - 2010.05.27 11:06:00 - [70] From my experience the main reason to use a cruise-golem is because a torp-golem can't handle it when rats start at 100km out. It just becomes a really expensive paperweight at those ranges. Also the torp-golem requires a lot of micromanagement which really does annoy a lot of mission runners. Add to that that using faction cruise missiles on a CNR is a pain but on a golem it helps close the gap in dps(4 launchers vs 8.75 with ship bonus factored). Then there are the fitting issues with the torp-golem. It needs all it's rig slots and 2-3 painters and it often ends up a little close on the tank unless you drop billions on an uber shield booster. In contrast a cruise golem can do this fairly easily with just one painter from what I have seen so it has a lot more slots open to make the tank very long running or just having a very high boost. It also bears mentioning that the golem has a huge cargo hold which can easily hold enough 800 cap booster charges to last until doomsday. Also the target painter bonus can be used to apply to drones which can make elite frigs pop in record time. Overall the cruise golem seems better than a CNR but not in ways that are very obvious in EFT.
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.05.27 23:39:00 - [71] Originally by: stoicfaux Originally by: Patri Andari Has it been empirically proven? After 3 pages I have yet to find one to person post from experience under the conditions I stated in the OP. That is to say, some one with max or near max skills using 2x T2 Rigors, 2x high meta painters and Fury cruise on a Golem to see if it can deliver more actual damage on a target than the EFT damage of a RNI. I do not argue that it does or does not, but I have not seem empirical evidence one way or another. With the Golem's bonuses to explosion velocity and explosion radius (applied to painters) it seems possible that despite having less EFT damage it may have less of its damage mitigated than a NRI. I plan to test once I have the skills, just wondered if any one has tried it. If this has been proven under the stated conditions I would appreciate a link to any such post. Take a T2 cruise CNR with 3xRigor Is using Fury missiles plus 5% implants firing at a Pith Eliminator at orbit velocity. Slap those numbers into the Missile Damage Formulas and you get: MF1 = sig/Er = 460/240.7 = 191.1% MF2 = (Ev/Ersig/vel)^(log(drf)/log(5.5)) = (91.35/240.7 460/140)^(log(4.7)/log(5.5)) = 122.2% Damage caps at 100%. If a CNR can do 100% damage with 3xRigors, no target painters, and no Golem like explosion velocity bonus, then a cruise CNR can do more damage than a cruise Golem due to the CNR's RoF bonus. And here is why people keep stating that a torp Golem is the only way to go: A maxed out Golem can achieve 100% damage using torpedoes against a Pith Eliminator without a TP... 0 TP - MF1=102.2% MF2=101.9% 1 TP - MF1=154.9% MF2=151.0% 2 TP - MF1=197.4% MF2=189.8% 3 TP - MF1=270.4% MF2=255.4% Torpedoes do more damage than cruise fury missiles and torp launchers have a faster RoF than cruise launchers. A torp Golem with 2-3 TPs can easily hit for full damage against battleships, and can also kill cruisers about as fast as a cruise CNR. So if a torp golem can do 100% damage, then a cruise Golem can easily do 100% damage with Fury cruise missiles without rigor rigs. A cruise golem is a "waste of time" because it is limited to max cruise missile damage which is much less than max torpedo damage. You have been more than a little helpful with your maths sir, but I now see where my problem is. My level 4 mission experience has been limited to the use of a Nighthawk instead of a NRI, therefore I am more likely to value damage to cruisers and battle cruisers as more important than damage to battleships. Most level 4 missions are not BS heavy but are loaded with cruisers and battle cruisers. Although Nighthawk wipes the floor with cruisers and BC, it lags behind NRI when it comes to battleships, so I was looking for a mission battleship that can improve on the Nighthawk v. battleships while not sucking v. cruisers. Using your maths I think I will test a cruise Golem over a NRI and equip it with 2x T2 flare rigs, 2x faction painters and precision cruise missiles while switching out to cruise fury for the battleships as needed. I still will test this before fitting the ship and report my results here once the skills are trained. Thanks to all who have contributed thus far. Patri I'll Roshambo you for that Titan
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.05.28 04:14:00 - [72] Edited by: stoicfaux on 28/05/2010 04:20:20 No point. You can max cruise missile damage against a small, fast cruiser, such as the Mercenary Commander using Rigor rigs. Never mind that the cruise CNR and torp Golem kill it faster than the Cruise Golem with T2 flare rigs. Battleships have about 4 times the hull points of cruisers, so you're often better off maximizing damage against battleships in level 4s. Rigor rigs on cruise unless otherwise noted. DmgType - Damage type #TPs - Num of Target Painters fVTK - fractional VTK VTK - Volleys to Kill TTK - Time to Kill Rank Missile Profile DmgType #TPs fVTK VTK TTK 115 CNR Cruise II - Rigor 2/Flare -Faction Therm 1 1.66 2 12.8 CNR Cruise II - Rigor/Flare Therm 1 1.90 CNR Cruise II - Max Therm 1 1.86 CNR Cruise II - Max - CN Ammo Therm 1 1.62 CNR Cruise II - Max - Faction TP Therm 1 1.72 CNR Cruise II - Max - Faction TP - CN Ammo Therm 1 1.58 CNR Cruise II - Max - Faction TP - Precision Therm 1 1.81 CNR Cruise II - Max - Precision Therm 1 1.85 130 Golem Siege II - Max Therm 3 1.51 2 14.0 Golem Siege II - Max - CN Ammo Therm 2 1.76 3 1.31 Golem Siege II - Max - Javelin Therm 3 1.70 Golem Siege II - Max - Rage Therm 3 1.97 185 Golem Cruise II - 2x T2 Flares Therm 1 1.33 2 17.1 2 1.20 3 1.20 Golem Cruise II - 2x T2 Flares Prec - Dom TP Therm 1 1.39 <--- 2 1.39 3 1.39 Golem Cruise II - Max Therm 1 1.41 2 1.20 3 1.20 Golem Cruise II - Max - CN Ammo Therm 0 1.77 1 1.23 2 1.05 3 1.05 Golem Cruise II - Max - Faction TP Therm 1 1.39 2 1.20 3 1.20 Golem Cruise II - Max - Faction TP - CN Ammo Therm 0 1.77 1 1.21 2 1.05 3 1.05 Golem Cruise II - Max - Faction TP - Fury Therm 2 1.74 3 1.28 Golem Cruise II - Max - Faction TP - Precision Therm 0 1.95 1 1.42 2 1.39 3 1.39 Golem Cruise II - Max - Fury Therm 2 1.81 3 1.36 Golem Cruise II - Max - Precision Therm 0 1.95 1 1.44 2 1.39 3 1.39 ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.28 05:10:00 - [73] The interesting thing isn't putting flares on the Golem but a T2 accelerator. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.05.28 05:38:00 - [74] Originally by: Liang Nuren The interesting thing isn't putting flares on the Golem but a T2 accelerator. -Liang I kept hitting the post character limit so I deleted them from the previous post. But here are the numbers. T2 Bay Acceleration rig (RoF rig) plus a T1 Rigor rig on a Cruise Golem. Faster than a regular rigor/flare cruise Golem, but slower than a torp Golem and cruise CNR. With 3 PWNAGE TPs you can hit 100% damage with T1/CN ammo. 161 Golem Cruise II - Accel CN Therm 1 1.48 2 16.0 2 1.20 2 16.0 3 1.05 2 16.0 Golem Cruise II - Accel T1 Therm 1 1.88 2 16.0 2 1.52 2 16.0 3 1.20 2 16.0 Golem Cruise II - Accel Fury Therm 3 1.65 2 16.0 ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"

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