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[Proposal] Learning skills solution

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Wikis	Posted - 2010.07.08 15:26:00 - [451] most idiotic stupid ******ed solution ive ever seen.# NOT supported
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2010.07.08 15:55:00 - [452] Originally by: R053 Originally by: Jasdemi What point? Driving new players away who got a brain and don't want to waste their 3 months sub time just to sit in a station and train learnings? Good point, truly good point. Who ever said u have to sit in the station doing nothing while training learning? Exactly. I had a great time my first few months in Eve. I explored, I mined, I shot things and got shot. I slowly worked learning skills in-between other skills for mods and ships I wanted to play with. My first few months in Eve rank among my most fun times in the game (been playing almost 5 years), along with my first move out to 0.0 and the time right after the introduction of wormholes. Anyone who doesn't leave the station until they train all learning has a SELF INFLICTED problem, it's not the game's fault. There's LOTS of things a new pilot with no skills can and should do to have fun. Still not supporting the removal of learning skills.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.07.08 17:56:00 - [453] I don't think everyone should receive +10 and 10%. I think that is a little bit too fast for training. I think everyone should receive like +8 and 10%. (But I guess it doesn't matter much) Also I think CCP should refund the learning skill sp in lump sum - like the 100k sp we just received. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Captain Organs ArmoredCore Armed Forces	Posted - 2010.07.08 22:19:00 - [454] I'd love another 2.4m sp that I could reallocate. Supported!
Jasdemi	Posted - 2010.07.09 13:45:00 - [455] Up =-=-=-=-= REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS!
Jorsalir	Posted - 2010.07.09 18:00:00 - [456] Not supported, keep the learning skills. If people want to learn faster they will invest the time in them. If not, then they lag behind.
Jasdemi	Posted - 2010.07.09 19:36:00 - [457] Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/07/2010 19:36:17 Originally by: Jorsalir Not supported, keep the learning skills. If people want to learn faster they will invest the time in them. If not, then they lag behind. Translation: I'm afraid of noobs who skill up their combat skills quicker and pwn me in pvp, because I have to player skill at all. =-=-=-=-= REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS!
Simeon Whiteheaven	Posted - 2010.07.09 19:50:00 - [458] No, I dont like this. Not supported
Jurona	Posted - 2010.07.09 19:54:00 - [459] Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/07/2010 19:36:17 Originally by: Jorsalir Not supported, keep the learning skills. If people want to learn faster they will invest the time in them. If not, then they lag behind. Translation: I'm afraid of noobs who skill up their combat skills quicker and pwn me in pvp, because I have to player skill at all. I'm struggling to understand your logic. I mean, you say it yourself... people who choose to do combat skills first will get the full benefit of the training bonus, so... yeah...
Ordavion	Posted - 2010.07.10 02:10:00 - [460] This is a fail idea. EVE needs the learning skills...they add depth
Xorv	Posted - 2010.07.10 03:22:00 - [461] Reading a lot of the comments and assertions by those opposed to removing Learning skills makes me feel like I'm witnessing the thoughts of people from another dimension where up is down, black is white, and wrong is right. Seriously, can just one of you come up with logical argument supporting learning skill in EVE that makes sense this side of reality, and is not a poorly masked attempt to keep a perceived personal advantage? How about the comment above mine... "Learning skills add Depth" Really?? Depth in what way? Because a lot of the rest of us aren't seeing it.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2010.07.10 05:31:00 - [462] Originally by: Xorv Reading a lot of the comments and assertions by those opposed to removing Learning skills makes me feel like I'm witnessing the thoughts of people from another dimension where up is down, black is white, and wrong is right. Seriously, can just one of you come up with logical argument supporting learning skill in EVE that makes sense this side of reality, and is not a poorly masked attempt to keep a perceived personal advantage? How about the comment above mine... "Learning skills add Depth" Really?? Depth in what way? Because a lot of the rest of us aren't seeing it. Does the question of when to put money into savings versus when to spend money on stuff add depth to life? Does the question of when to keep going to school versus when to enter the job market add depth to life? If the answer to either or both of these questions is "yes" - learning skills add depth to Eve.
Skarsnik Caldari DarkArch Corp	Posted - 2010.07.10 06:24:00 - [463] Not supported. As many have said new players are not forced to train them instead of 'Fun Skills'. I've been playing since that fateful May 2003, I didn't train all the learning skills all at once, I'm now proabably behind a lot if not all 2k3 vets in SP total, but do I care, no really, I trained them as I went along when I felt I could, and they benefit me now, but overall I had more fun in those first 3-6 months than most as I avoided the brainwashing of 'Learning skills must be trained' ------------- Criags Dive Blog - Career Change EVE-Ink Tattoo Project
Jasdemi	Posted - 2010.07.10 08:32:00 - [464] Originally by: Skarsnik Not supported. As many have said new players are not forced to train them instead of 'Fun Skills'. I've been playing since that fateful May 2003, I didn't train all the learning skills all at once, I'm now proabably behind a lot if not all 2k3 vets in SP total, but do I care, no really, I trained them as I went along when I felt I could, and they benefit me now, but overall I had more fun in those first 3-6 months than most as I avoided the brainwashing of 'Learning skills must be trained' 2003 =/= 2010 =-=-=-=-= REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS!
Xorv	Posted - 2010.07.10 08:58:00 - [465] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Does the question of when to put money into savings versus when to spend money on stuff add depth to life? Not really. Also EVE already has a dynamic economy and economic choices that a player has to make that actually involves... well money (ISK). So, Learning Skills are not required to create this, it already exists without them. Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Does the question of when to keep going to school versus when to enter the job market add depth to life? Slightly. But this isn't even relevant to Learning skills in EVE, the direct comparison is training skills that actually do something. So, do I train a 2 day skill that gets me X, or do I put that 30 day investment to get Y. Don't know about you but of all my years at university and college I can only recall spending maybe 2 hours taking an optional workshop that was about learning to learn. Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri If the answer to either or both of these questions is "yes" - learning skills add depth to Eve. No, even if both were true it doesn't lead to your conclusion. Lets be frank here Learning skills are no more than an arbitrary time sink. No amount of spin can change that.
Jasdemi	Posted - 2010.07.10 15:51:00 - [466] I haven't heard one serious reason why learnings should NOT be removed. Looks like they will, very soon. :) =-=-=-=-= REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS!
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate Underworld Excavators	Posted - 2010.07.10 16:29:00 - [467] and i hope that happens ASAP, they are utteraly useless. I hurts me when a new player spends weeks of his time in a frig, wituot anything to do, doing learning skills. While i try to prevent such stupidity where i can, some silly people somewhere suffer.
Kaeron Sunkeeper	Posted - 2010.07.10 19:21:00 - [468] Totaly Support this post Remove Learning Skills Add the atributes + Learning Skills benefits when maxed out Reinburst Players who Spent Points in em so the can relocate them to anywhere they want And for people who go around saying "ohh I spent Time learning em SOOO u should 2 andd its unfair blabla" First Stop being selfish pricks! Just cuz u had to spend time on it and now other might have a chance to have more fun and a easier start (cuz the have has already stiff learning curve as it is!) doesnt mean other have to spend that time! Second Maxed Skill benefit + Reinburstment IS MORE than fair, you will NOT loose a single thing if this change happes! Will be helpfull for everyone! AND even for u elder player if u plan to start an alt to help you out! Third "Learning skills are part of game deal with itt blabla" If being ****d by carrots was part of game would u endure it? It is called evolution Happens in every reality so stop being closed minded fools and selfish! MMo's are a virtual reality so it is object of changes. To improve experience. Simple.. Removing Learning Skill will improve Experience and allow new players to have some fun early game in a already RLY hard game no need to make things harder.. so yes.. 100% Support onto this :D
Amelia Ryan CONCORD Operations	Posted - 2010.07.10 20:38:00 - [469] Edited by: Amelia Ryan on 10/07/2010 20:38:12 OP supported. Makes it fair for new & old. Edit: forgot thumbs up.
Ninshiki	Posted - 2010.07.11 00:50:00 - [470] Edited by: Ninshiki on 11/07/2010 00:51:35 Captain Obvious Sarcasm reporting. Learning skills are the most important skills in the game. They're the only skills that offer you the choice of learning the skills that actually affect your character faster by spending time learning other skills! I think CCP should do the exact opposite of get rid of them, they should add yet another tier of learning skills that make the existing learning skills train even faster! This would add even more choice and depth! - If you want the skills that affect your character's performance to train effectively, then you not only get the choice of whether or not to train the existing learning skills, you get to choose how fast those train by choosing whether or not to train the skills that speed up training your existing learning skills! This would add even more choice as to how fast you get to the skills that actually affect your character's performance! So much depth is added by skills that you train specifically to affect how fast other skills train, I can't see how anyone would want these removed! Captain Obvious Sarcasm out.
Jasdemi	Posted - 2010.07.11 10:34:00 - [471] Trolls, angry vets who are protecting learning skills sound like this to me so far: "Oh god, please. Don't let EVE evolve. Even if learning skills were a mistake and are just broken mechanics, don't let them remove it. Please let me play a broken game. Also I strongly disagree with the removal of learnings, since they will lower the steep learn curve a bit for the newbies. Hell no, don't let newbies ever have a chance to start playing. I want the game all for myself" =-=-=-=-= REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS!
Nagsir Inaste Horizontal Mambo	Posted - 2010.07.11 20:01:00 - [472] Would make EVE a better game, and provide a fair solution to everyone.
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.07.12 07:07:00 - [473] Counter Proposal: 1. New Characters are created with all the skills in the learning subgroup trained to level III, including the advanced skills. 2. Increase the 100% training bonus cut off to account for the SP added by these gifted skills to level III. 3. Change the prerequisite for advanced learning skills to level III of the primary skill instead of IV. 4. Existing Characters are given SP pool equal to all the learning skills trained to level 3. (no matter if they have the skills trained or not) 5. Reimbursement of isk? Do not care one way or the other about this. Rationale: If the new character experience is the actual catalyst behind this proposal, it seems the OP is excessive. Why not a solution that eliminates the obsession with training the skills without unjustly rewarding or punishing existing players for the choices they have made thus far? New players would now have less obsession to station spin while skills are trained, yet they still have an option which has not diluted the depth of the game. Existing players still benefit from the choices they have made thus far without penalty or undue reward. This is a solution I could support. I can not support the OP. It devalues the benefit that players expected and relied upon when they made their original choices. This taken from my reponse in the other thread on this topic. Patri I'll Roshambo you for that Titan
Trebor Daehdoow	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:13:00 - [474] Patri, this is an interesting compromise suggestion. I would like to see more discussion of this idea in this thread, as it may be useful as an alternative to present to CCP. It does have the advantage of being easier to implement (well, probably). Can someone please run the numbers on how much training time this would save noobs? Further, how can noobs be encouraged to not continue training the learning skills during the double-rate period? Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician
Brodit Gallente Dark Harlequin	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:39:00 - [475] Over my dead and stinking carcass. I started playing eve 4.5 years ago and unlike most newcomers to the game I had spent some time researching Eve's "proffessions", skills and game mechanics. Way back then I knew I would like eve, and so to get the most benefit out of my $20 a month subscription, I trained Basic Learning to V (the prerequisite for Adv Learning at the time) followed by Adv Learning 4. See these are RL reasons, they have nothing to do with Eve and everything to do with value for money. The higher my stats, the quicker I train and improve my return rate. So I had to run around in a frig for a while longer than i would have, by the time i was ready for a cruiser/bc/bs i had the peripheral skills required to fly them properly, (be honest how many of you charged through the ships only to get them torn apart by a hisec belt spawn). Now lets move on to the real issue. Of those opposed to Learning how many have been outstripped by younger players who were more diligent in their training. By the time i was 3 yrs i had the same sps of people playing since 04. Now probably 03. I notice with interest that most want the 50 points in their stats (10 points per att) and the 10% but don't want the hassle of traing the skills. The only way this could be fairly introduced is if they worked out who got what sps from what learning skills and correlate against which version Eve the char was born in as the character generation has changed radically since the days we got the average 30 points in atts. Now i believe it is 43. Counter proposal, remove the Learning skills, the additional attribute points and the 10% bonus. Give every char with learning skills the equivelent sps to allocate as they see fit, and give the oldest players as many attribute points as it takes to give them parity with newer chars. Okay then I was being sarcastic, now bury this motion before I puke, or worse ask for the removal of missile skill and science skill trees.
Niyrah	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:48:00 - [476] No....Learning skills are fine as is. Why is everyone so bent on fixing something that isn't broken?
Xorv	Posted - 2010.07.12 20:15:00 - [477] Originally by: Patri Andari Rationale: If the new character experience is the actual catalyst behind this proposal, it seems the OP is excessive. Why not a solution that eliminates the obsession with training the skills without unjustly rewarding or punishing existing players for the choices they have made thus far? New players would now have less obsession to station spin while skills are trained, yet they still have an option which has not diluted the depth of the game. Existing players still benefit from the choices they have made thus far without penalty or undue reward. [...] New player experience is one of the primary problems with learning skills, but it isn't the sole reason to remove them. Learning Skills are in of themselves just bad game design. They do not add "depth" to the game, they don't make sense in terms of realism, and they aren't fun for anyone but the most deranged min/maxers. The only thing Learning Skills add is a meaningless time sink. No one is punished or rewarded by removing Learning skills. No one's getting the benefits they gained in the past from learning skills taken away, nor is anyone being given the benefits of learning skills previously lost over the years/months by those who didn't train them. What's past is past and won't be changed. There's no compromise on the Learning Skills themselves, they're bad game play and need to removed entirely. Something I think that can be compromised on is what Learning Skills are replaced with. Rather than giving everyone the equivalent of maxed Learning Skills to their attributes, I think it would be reasonable to only give players a portion of that (say 4/4/5 for example) and make the difference with new attribute enhancing items such as enhanced implants or learning boosters as I suggested in another thread.
Jasdemi	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:19:00 - [478] Learnings are totally wrong in EVE and yet trolling vets support them. lol =-=-=-=-= REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS!
irion felpamy Assisted Genocide	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:29:00 - [479] They are rubbish just get rid of them. give a flat +5 to stats, give a flat +11 I don't really care.
Windwizard	Posted - 2010.07.13 14:43:00 - [480] good idea!I agree with you! Ccp hurry to do this!

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