• 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes

• 2. Remove all learning skills.

• 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.

Originally by: Jiseinoku

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Mining is the path to enlightement.

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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To those who didn't support:

Do remember that CCP decided that those skills will be removed. We dont discuss here should they be removed or not.

They still are not removed because CCP didn't find solution which would satisfy majority of players.

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Originally by: Psycros

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but this seems like one CCP might actually fix for a change.

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Originally by: MNagy

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Not Supported.

Learning skills are a love them to hate them set of skills. You always want to put them in cue but they take forver. By putting them in cue, you are speeding up skill learning for later.

I say dont add more - dont get rid of them.

If you dont want to skill them - then dont.

M.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Solution looking for a problem.

Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.

Not supported.

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Originally by: Netacq

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not supported

One of the unique features of EVE is specialization. Learning skills are part of it.

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Solution looking for a problem.

Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.

Not supported.

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This. Learning skills annoy people, but they're not a problem.

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Solution looking for a problem.

Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.

Not supported.

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This. Learning skills annoy people, but they're not a problem.

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I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Most long-term players I know relished the "figuring things out" process that comes with learning Eve. I'd say those players, who become long-term, are Eve's target market.. not the easily discouraged because things are confusing.

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.

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Every time I've introduced someone to Eve, I've explained it to them and given them the advice to spend maybe half their time on learning skills and half on real skills. Never heard any complaints.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Solution looking for a problem.

Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.

Not supported.

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Originally by: Kiri Serrensun

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Solution looking for a problem.

Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.

Not supported.

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What depth? Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later? Wow, such freedom of choice. Good to see the e-wang "EVE is not supposed to be accessible to those foul noobs, it's a game for REAL MEN!" brigade out in force.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Seriously the whole "LRNING SKILZ ARE EVIL" thing is just people crying to be protected from their own weakness in being unable to restrain themselves from min-maxing. They can't stand the idea that someone, somewhere might be getting a whole 66 SP/hr more than them, but they dont want to put in the time to get that last couple of percent.

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Originally by: Therendief

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The people who would be most hurt are this are the new players(for example myself). I am at roughly 5mil SP now in 3 months, and if I lost my learning skills suddenly I would be set way back on both my accounts, having wasted 21 days approx on two accounts(+my extra remap on the second one for training learning skills). So unless a system of bonus is put in, your only hurting the people who joined in the past 6 months(post dominion) who have already put in the time to train them and would now train slower AND have wasted 3+weeks on learning skills.
Just my 2cents, supported as per OP.
Removing with no bonus NOT SUPPORTED.

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Originally by: Dominar Solon

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I did write up a few paragraphs here and just decided that i did not have enough room to continue. That said I like option 3. It gives those character / players a massive bonus for spending the time training and planning their characters. We get the benefit of learning skills faster over the past few years and we get one final thank you for the SP getting applied to skills to train them very fast. All players now train at the same rate unless you have implants. implants will become in high demand which will drive up their price in the short term. New players will not be faced with useless skill training to train skills.

This allows those older characters to be able to look back and remember something else fondly or egregiously depending on your perspective. Ultimately CCP is a fool if they indeed ever mentioned any task and used the phrase "what can we do that will not make people angry" Regardless the choice, some will be angry. Some will threaten to quit, some might even do just that. But if a decision is to be made I think that this is a good one. All new players train at the same speed as vets. Vets got a bonus for being here and working hard. New players cant be angry about it. Old players should not have sold their account. Vets, well we did our time, and have to go slow like everyone else now but we were rewarded for our service.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Seriously the whole "LRNING SKILZ ARE EVIL" thing is just people crying to be protected from their own weakness in being unable to restrain themselves from min-maxing. They can't stand the idea that someone, somewhere might be getting a whole 66 SP/hr more than them, but they dont want to put in the time to get that last couple of percent.

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Your attitude is terrible, and you're absolutely wrong. I find it amusing that you refuse to look beyond your own prejudice of (seemingly) "LOL THEY WEEK MIN MAXER LOL" to "wow, we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game".
-Liang

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Originally by: Ethos777

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Good solution

I also think it would be reasonable to give all characters an extra +5 to all attributes and either remove the 1-5 implants or use them entirely for stat/skill bonus's like the current sets work.

/signed

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Originally by: Bagehi

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Ditching the learning skills would allow people to start working on their gameplay-related training right away

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Originally by: Kiri Serrensun

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Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later?

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game
the time when they're supposed to be doing learning skills
how do you justify me as an older player having an ever widening gap in capabilities because I trained learning skills

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those,

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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Originally by: Bagehi

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Ditching the learning skills would allow people to start working on their gameplay-related training right away

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Originally by: Kiri Serrensun

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Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later?

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game
the time when they're supposed to be doing learning skills
how do you justify me as an older player having an ever widening gap in capabilities because I trained learning skills

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The competition was fierce, but Liang takes the Failure At EVE prize for this thread.

Entries still open however.

BTW, how do you justify me as an older player being able to fly a Battleship just because I trained the Battleships skill?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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WE. DONT. MAKE. THEM. DO. THIS. YOU. LIAR.

It really is laughable that in the very first paragraph of your attempted refutation, you exactly illustrate my point. In no way, shape or form are new players "made" to sit around for any period of time doing nothing fun in the game. It is only their own perception - or, far more frequently the god-awful advice of people like you - that leads them to do this.

You are implicitly assuming that they should do the efficient thing at the expense of fun. That is the living definition of "mini-maxing".

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long.

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first

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So, paying to play a game, playing in a way which offers you no fun, and boring yourself out of said game (i.e. the "noob who is driven out by the learning skills" story) is reasonable?

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Quote:

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long.

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Straw man. A noob will not be training for battleships day 1.

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Quote:

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.

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Only a masochist or a blithering idiot will minmax at the cost of enjoyment of a game.

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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It's like being in school

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Quote:

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Semantics, again; replace 'Battleship IV' with 'Any skill that takes longer than a few days.' Because that's the issue: nobody is gonna feel the slow-training of, say, 'Frigate I'.

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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But people will feel the impact when it comes to longer skills. And even when noobs will be training many short skills first, their falling behind catches up with them rapidly. There's just no way around it: don't do learning skills, and your initial 'fun' will turn sour pretty fast.

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Quote:

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If by 'enjoyment' you mean 'instant gratification,'

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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Originally by: Malcanis

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WE. DONT. MAKE. THEM. DO. THIS. YOU. LIAR.

It really is laughable that in the very first paragraph of your attempted refutation, you exactly illustrate my point. In no way, shape or form are new players "made" to sit around for any period of time doing nothing fun in the game. It is only their own perception - or, far more frequently the god-awful advice of people like you - that leads them to do this.

You are implicitly assuming that they should do the efficient thing at the expense of fun. That is the living definition of "mini-maxing".

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Semantics. Liang is absolutely right.

Nobody is literally forcing anyone to not go do fun stuff. Yet the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first. Simple as that. Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long. Most folks grasp that doing learning skills first, so you can afterwards train at 2772 sp/h, is probably ever-so slightly more efficient. So, only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.

Hence, Liang is right: learning skills make you do learning first, however loud you decry the fact.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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*sigh*

You're making exactly the same unproven assumption as Liang. That one must be "efficient".

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Quote:

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And you're also employing the fallacy of the excluded middle by implying that there's no middle ground between doing no learning skills at all, and doing nothing but learning skills.

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Quote:

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It's just as bad for a new character to train NOTHING but learning skills as it would be for the to train NOTHING except Engineering, or NOTHING except Social skills. If there's one thing a brand new player should NOT be doing it is focusing exclusively on any one skill group.

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Quote:

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The only significant problem with Learning skills is griefers (and I use the word deliberately) like you telling new players that they must train learning skills first. You should be ashamed of yourself, because that's a mean thing to do to someone who doesn't know any better.

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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Because to stake a position that one should play a game deliberately inefficiently is just plain ******ed.

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Originally by: Therendief

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The people who would be most hurt are this are the new players(for example myself). I am at roughly 5mil SP now in 3 months, and if I lost my learning skills suddenly I would be set way back on both my accounts, having wasted 21 days approx on two accounts(+my extra remap on the second one for training learning skills). So unless a system of bonus is put in, your only hurting the people who joined in the past 6 months(post dominion) who have already put in the time to train them and would now train slower AND have wasted 3+weeks on learning skills.
Just my 2cents, supported as per OP.
Removing with no bonus NOT SUPPORTED.

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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Yes, I'm sure they're much better off in your hands, being told learning is for nerdy, OCD-ing wimps, and that they should just go have fun, not worrying too much about their future, because it's just a game, after all. [/sarcasm]

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Originally by: suspisious

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You have to level em, as early as possible. Or else you simply miss out.

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Originally by: Bagehi

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It has nothing to do about "wasting time" or "falling behind" it simply is a time sink.

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Originally by: Cearain

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This seems like a good idea. But why not just give people who have learning skills the sp to put where ever they want? Whats with the 1000% increase in speed?

The only potential drawback I see from this is that we may all be able to learn skills too fast. Maybe only give everyone +7 accross the board and reimburse all the sp spent in learning.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I mean obviously we can't respect the choices people have made for their characters, right? That's out of the question.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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THERE IS NO RACE

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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You and Malcanis are probably the biggest failure *******s I've seen in Eve recently. What, really, do you think that learning skills add to the game? The simple truth of the matter is that learning skills add nothing to the game except an unnecessary grind that prevents A LARGE NUMBER of people from more fully enjoying the game. How can you deny the game would be better if people could just start training skills?

Also, there absolutely a race. First, you will "race" to get into a ship which you feel will be fun. Second, you will "race" to get into situations which make more ISK - such as doing L4 missions. Third, you will "race" your friends to be able to do something. You will also notice people end up setting 'mileposts' that they want to accomplish, downloading Evemon, and training a bunch of learning skills. The time spent training these learning skills is time that they could have used to become more proficient more quickly. They make the game unfriendly to new comers.

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Originally by: Bagehi

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The choice is [..] That isn't really a choice.

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Originally by: Bagehi

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I chose to not train mining. I don't suffer a penalty compared to others because of this.

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Originally by: Lord Cath

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for christ sake, stop trying to WoW'ify this game... Plenty of MMO's out there where you can slay boars for days on end and gain XP.

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Originally by: Furb Killer

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you are trying to say that boring learning skills that dont serve any purpose besides SP sink is the opposite of WoW

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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1. CCP wants to remove them
2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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If I may remind you that we dont discuss about should learning skills be removed or not. Or whats your personal opinion about them. This topic started as something that have in its base two blocks:
1. CCP wants to remove them
2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.

And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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1. CCP wants to remove them
2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.

And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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1. CCP wants to remove them
2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.

And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.

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Dev blog / link / proof please or this is hearsay.

I'm not considering their removal "final" because you say it is... sorry.

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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Linkage

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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Linkage

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I think I've changed my mind. One of their suggestions is that new players earn the learning skills by doing things - completing epic arcs, getting X kills in faction warfare. Having the learning skills turned into an actual grind by people who apparently haven't got a clue how to play EVE in order to solve a problem which doesn't really exist would be such a fantastic achievement, I can't *not* support it.

While they say themselves they won't actually do that, I hope whatever 'solution' they decide on is equally entertaining.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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Linkage

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I think I've changed my mind.

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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Welcome aboard.

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Originally by: Lord Cath

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Originally by: Furb Killer

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you are trying to say that boring learning skills that dont serve any purpose besides SP sink is the opposite of WoW

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What I'm trying to say is that EvE is harder to get into then most MMO's and a lot of people are constantly whining about everything that isnt in an arm's reach in the game... Learning skills do serve a purpose, it's not because you think theyre useless that they realy are...

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Originally by: Tyris Psilo

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I would like to explore this issue from a newcomers perspective, seeing as I'm a newcomer. I'm not sure how long I'll be playing-- shoot, I might not be playing in a month even. I haven't explored the game fully, and I have no clue if I want to play. Now, when I started, a friend told me about the learning skills, and being a mathematically minded person, I saw how incredibly important they are. So, I trained 1-3 in all the skills without a second thought. At this point, I've finished the tutorials and trained the requisite skills the tutorials required, and I still haven't seen what Eve is about at all. I want to go into, say, "Industry," but I quickly realize that without taking the learning skills further, I will fall behind everyone else rapidly, meaning I would be less competitive within a month. If I do take the learning skills further, I won't be able to try industry (or what-have-you) out in the first place, leaving me with the question, "why play the game in the first place, and thus train these skills at all?"

So I did what I was advised to do. I set the learning skills and Tier 2 learning skills to my desired levels and all but ignored the game for a few days. I was away from town anyway, but it's not hard to imagine at all that another person in my same situation would have simply quit the game because he/she didn't feel like spending RL money to run a game that he/she couldn't begin to play. I play games to explore, plan, and have fun. I don't play games to suffer boredom so that I might suffer less boredom later.

Quote from me to a friend to recruit her, "Yeah, if you're going to play, sign up a couple days before you are able to really sit down and play. Otherwise, you'll be stuck doing nothing while you train learning skills."

/signed a fresh out-of-the-box Newbie

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Originally by: Serinas Setzuni

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I had a simple idea and I'm surprised no one else had brought it up already...

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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It's like being in school

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Did you see the part where I italicised game? Think about that.
In RL you do unfun things for a long-term benefit. That's life. If you do that in a game, you are probably doing it wrong.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players

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Originally by: Serinas Setzuni

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For those who had them all at L5 already, give them some kind of 'Congratulations' award or some kind of tangible reward?

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Originally by: Stupid McStupidson

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Don't like them, don't train them. Stop being so obsessed with other characters skillpoints. For the one millionth time, doing any given activity, or flying any given ship, you are only using a relatively small subset of SP. Any and all SP not related to that activity is wholly irrelevant. Why does it grate on you that one player gets there in 30 days, when it took you 32?

Players are measured on their knowledge of game mechanics, and their ability to put them to use. You do not need n SP in x amount of time to do this. There is no trophy for reaching a specific number in the least amount of time. A player with faster training times might acquire the ability to perform one mini profession or related group of level V skills in a year.

In any case, high learning skills take progressively longer to pay off, since you could have been training a direct game related skill during that time. Somebody somewhere made a chart covering this, which I can't be arsed to find.

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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people like efficiency

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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you realize having to spend much time on the learning skills
having to

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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They represent an arbitrary time buffer which, if I had to guess, was originally designed to keep the complete newbies from competing with the advanced players

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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In other news:

Originally by: Black Dranzer

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They represent an arbitrary time buffer which, if I had to guess, was originally designed to keep the complete newbies from competing with the advanced players

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Your persecution complex is stunning, and only matched by your lack of comprehension of the purpose of the learning skills.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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One, I've been playing Eve on and off since 2005, so I'm not sure how I'd have a persecution complex in regards to being a newbie.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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Two, I am honestly unsure as to why learning skills exist.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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Besides those three reasons, why else should learning skills even exist?

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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snip

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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Edited by: Black Dranzer on 04/06/2010 11:47:13

Originally by: Crumplecorn

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snip

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I'm just going to go straight to attack the false premise that these skills add some kind of variety to the game.

Let's say you have two players, player A and player B. You give them both an identical skill plan: A list of skills to learn, and an order in which to learn them. Now, to make this interesting, you tell player A to max out his learning skills before following along the skill plan.

To start off with, player A is way behind player B in skills (besides learning). But as they both follow the skill plan, something happens: Eventually, player A catches up to player B. This moment in time, we shall refer to as "The Threshold". After crossing the threshold, assuming that player A and B both spend an equal amount of time training skills (and provided that implants are identical for both players, etc etc), player B will NEVER have as many skill points as player A.

The only real "choice" in regards to learning skills is this:

Will you get your learning skills first, or do you plan to be playing for less time than it takes to reach the threshold?

To reiterate this more simply: Ignoring your learning skills is only a good idea if you plan to stop playing the game at some point. The fewer learning skills you get, the shorter your character's lifespan must be for you to not be punished for it.

Any game feature which discourages players from playing is a Bad Thing. The loss of the paltry "choice" that is presented to rookie players is a small price to pay, because when given a choice of "suffer now or suffer later", most new players will leave.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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You can make the same analogy with two graduates given money û one puts it into savings/investments and one spends it on stuff.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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You can make the same analogy with two graduates given money û one puts it into savings/investments and one spends it on stuff.

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Yes, but when the second graduate runs out of money, he doesn't usually kill himself.

You can not reliably compare advancement in real life to advancement in MMOs. Believe me, I've tried; By god have I tried. The fact of the matter is that people are far more willing to leave MMOs than they're willing to leave real life.

When made to choose between the lesser of two evils, an MMO player will leave.

Removing depth can be bad. But it is not unconditionally bad.

Learning skills are not worth the damage the cause.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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My "cause" would be keeping it true to the complicated, pain-in-the-ass, game that got us all hooked in the first place. Learning skills are part of that picture - and removing them damages the cause.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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Let's say you have two players, player A and player B. You give them both an identical skill plan: A list of skills to learn, and an order in which to learn them. Now, to make this interesting, you tell player A to max out his learning skills before following along the skill plan.

To start off with, player A is way behind player B in skills (besides learning). But as they both follow the skill plan, something happens: Eventually, player A catches up to player B. This moment in time, we shall refer to as "The Threshold". After crossing the threshold, assuming that player A and B both spend an equal amount of time training skills (and provided that implants are identical for both players, etc etc), player B will NEVER have as many skill points as player A.

The only real "choice" in regards to learning skills is this:

Will you get your learning skills first, or do you plan to be playing for less time than it takes to reach the threshold?

To reiterate this more simply: Ignoring your learning skills is only a good idea if you plan to stop playing the game at some point. The fewer learning skills you get, the shorter your character's lifespan must be for you to not be punished for it.

Any game feature which discourages players from playing is a Bad Thing. The loss of the paltry "choice" that is presented to rookie players is a small price to pay, because when given a choice of "suffer now or suffer later", most new players will leave.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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Learning skills are not worth the damage the cause.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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they do more to limit freedom than promote it

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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By your logic, how about we add tier 3 learning skills with 5x training multipliers? Where does it end, and more importantly, why does it end there?

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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The idea that you get 'punished' for not training the learning skills is also nonsense and is based on another common fallacy; that the training speed you have once you have all the learning skills is the 'baseline', and the learning skills are a mandatory timesink to get there.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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Somewhere in the middle there you came dangerously close to implying that the game is no longer worth playing if you fall behind in the skills race: "Will you get your learning skills first, or do you plan to be playing for less time than it takes to reach the threshold?" etc. I will assume that you did not mean to imply this, since such an implication would be ridiculous on a scale never before witnessed on these fora. Without this implication, you are merely asserting that a player's highest priority must be their position in a non-existent race which, while still nonsense, is a few astronomical units closer to the realms of rational thought.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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The only damage they cause are the removal of people too foolish to understand what you yourself say is not a particularly complicated part of the game. They were lost before they ever started.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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People's narrow views of how EVE should be played limit their freedom, the game does not.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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There have been requests for them.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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Find me one character who has 3 months of active playtime and who has no learning skill above level 3.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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The fact is, after a certain point, there is literally no advantage to having neglected learning skills. Because by the time you reach that point, if you'd invested in learning skills, you'd have those other skills anyway.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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Creating a game that nobody will touch is not a goal to aspire to.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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It's not about understanding, it's about choosing if you want to leave an account to boil for weeks before playing the game or suffering for it if you end up playing longer than you envisioned.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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This isn't about perspectives, it's about math.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Give it up, Crumplecorn. These guys come from games where you "win" by maxing out your character sheet, and they're not capable of/interested in understanding any other way to 'play'. They're not wrong in their terms of reference. That's why you're never going to win them over.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Give it up, Crumplecorn.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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- Train everything frustratingly slow until they quit - "I've been playing this game for 6 months and I can barely fly a cruiser!"
- Train everything frustratingly slow for a month or two while they get some skills for their profession. Then burn a month on learning skills and continue playing the game.
- Burn a month on learning skills and then start playing the game. These people overwhelmingly quit the game because it's incredibly boring.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Eve is a game of progressive specialization until you have a pretty extreme amount of SP

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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- Train everything frustratingly slow until they quit - "I've been playing this game for 6 months and I can barely fly a cruiser!"
- Train everything frustratingly slow for a month or two while they get some skills for their profession. Then burn a month on learning skills and continue playing the game.
- Burn a month on learning skills and then start playing the game. These people overwhelmingly quit the game because it's incredibly boring.

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You conveniently left out the most sensible option for non minmaxers. Protip: The learning skills do not have to be trained all at once.

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Quote:

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Eve is a game of progressive specialization until you have a pretty extreme amount of SP

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EVE is a game of doing whatever you want until you run out of things you want.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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(whether it's all at once or not is kinda immaterial)

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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learning skills should not stand in the way of doing what you want to do as they currently do.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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(whether it's all at once or not is kinda immaterial)

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Only if you look at it from a 'will I have as many SPs as the Joneses in 2 years' end game minmaxing point of view.

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Quote:

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Saying it, not making it true, etc etc.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Give it up, Crumplecorn. These guys come from games where you "win" by maxing out your character sheet, and they're not capable of/interested in understanding any other way to 'play'. They're not wrong in their terms of reference. That's why you're never going to win them over.

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New players have three options:
- Train everything frustratingly slow until they quit - "I've been playing this game for 6 months and I can barely fly a cruiser!"
- Train everything frustratingly slow for a month or two while they get some skills for their profession. Then burn a month on learning skills and continue playing the game.
- Burn a month on learning skills and then start playing the game. These people overwhelmingly quit the game because it's incredibly boring.

You may claim that the last option is stupid...

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Originally by: Malcanis

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No, I claim that there's a 4th option, which I have pointed out repeatedly in this an other threads, and you have repeatedly ignored, for whatever reason.

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Originally by: Cearain

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Maybe we should have learning skills that help you learn learning skills faster. That would give everyone more options and choices of how to create their character.

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Originally by: xChevalierx

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lol, pure genius, but why stop there. We can also have learning skills that help the learning skills that help your learning skills train faster for mad leet training.

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Edited by: Sokratesz on 26/05/2010 15:30:28
Yes.

Learning skills are in my opinion unnecessary, and a deterrent to many people who want to try EVE for just a few weeks. CCP themselves have admitted that their introduction was a mistake, and it's never too late to clean up on them.

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Originally by: jentaki

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so if they are doing away with learning it stands to reason they are doing away with attributes. what are they going to be doing with 1-5 slot implants?

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Originally by: Rip Minner

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Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45


So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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Originally by: Rip Minner

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Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45


So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.

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Yet again I will underline the fact that we dont discuss here about should they be removed...because its something CCP is working on.
But about what will happen, and whats the best solution for theirs removal.

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Originally by: Rip Minner

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Originally by: Kaya Divine

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Originally by: Rip Minner

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Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45


So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.

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Yet again I will underline the fact that we dont discuss here about should they be removed...because its something CCP is working on.
But about what will happen, and whats the best solution for theirs removal.

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Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon.

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Originally by: Rip Minner

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Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Rip Minner

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Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon.

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First, would you mind reading the thread before you go off flaming? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgUwEztj28#t=38m40s

Second, learning skills basically present us with these two options:
1. People log in and they spend time training other skills so that they can train skills. This significantly delays their ability to train real skills - no matter if they train their skills all at once ("best result") or interspersed ("80/20 result").
2. People log in and train real skills.

The proper solution is ALWAYS going to be #2 from a new player's perspective. And as a corp CEO (not that we recruit noobs...), I'd really prefer #2 as well. AND I DON'T EVEN GIVE A **** IF THEY GIVE ME MY SP BACK IN ANY WAY. But dammit learning skills do nothing but detract from the game. Remove them already.

-Liang

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Originally by: Rip Minner

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Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Rip Minner

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Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.

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You know, in the life of a game where WIS has been a planned expansion for 4 years and it took 2 years for the latest nano nerf to hit... 1 year isn't so long. Hell its only 2 expansion cycles for a problem they admitted was difficult to solve - mostly because sticks in the mud like you want people wasting time with learning skills instead of jumping right into the game.

-Liang

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Originally by: Rip Minner

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stuff

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Rip Minner

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Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.

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You know, in the life of a game where WIS has been a planned expansion for 4 years and it took 2 years for the latest nano nerf to hit... 1 year isn't so long. Hell its only 2 expansion cycles for a problem they admitted was difficult to solve - mostly because sticks in the mud like you want people wasting time with learning skills instead of jumping right into the game.

-Liang

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Originally by: devilsspawn

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If CCP are taking away the deep safe spots because they are an advantage to older players that have them, then they should take away learning skills as well. It is the same principle; Newer players are at a disadvantage because of the lack of the learning skills being trained, where as the older players already have them.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Originally by: devilsspawn

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If CCP are taking away the deep safe spots because they are an advantage to older players that have them, then they should take away learning skills as well. It is the same principle; Newer players are at a disadvantage because of the lack of the learning skills being trained, where as the older players already have them.

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By that logic we should get rid of level V skills because the vets have more of them than the new players, and it takes sooo long for the poor newbies to train them! Hell, let's get rid of isk - the vets have more than the newbies! Capital ships.. those damn veterans have more of those - everything must go! Every new account should have all of the same stuff as a five year old account!

Where does the whining/madness stop? Still not supported.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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Learning skills don't do anything.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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If you remove any other skill, then you take some depth out of combat or industry.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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And if you remove these you take some depth out of the skill tree.

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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I don't know the difference between depth and breadth.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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I don't know the difference between depth and breadth.

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The learning skills are the only skills that offer any depth at all in the skill tree; without them it is simply a direct train to whatever you want.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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I have warped ideas of depth and breadth, I know how to warp quotes

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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words

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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Not Supported.

Learning skills are not the factor that drive newer players away. It is the factor that drives players that would much rather play WoW away.

We have to be careful how much we dilute this game and make skill progression too easy. When I was a noob I invested the time for learning skills, I was not bored. I killed a few miners, I had a war, even though I was a corporation of one. If you define your time in eve as skills, then you are missing the point. Eve is about stories, not skills. If you wont play a game because of a little thing like learning skills, then GTFO. These people are not going to contribute to wild and adventurous things within eve, just more whines and more standardization.

Eve is a sandbox, unfortunately as more time passes I see a growing trend in eve to move away from the traditional chaos and diversity to standardization. Less flavour and more of the same. Learning skills are vital to the "Butterfly Effect" of eve and should not be regarded as just a skill set that does nothing. They create a greater differentiation between all players; new and old. This means that age isn't everything in eve as like so many other choices, learning skills in effect create a discontinuity that eve IMO is defined by.

Be careful how many of these things you standardise, because the eve you know and love is in danger of becoming just another MMO.

Learning skills should stay for the benefit of eve's dynamism. At some point CCP needs to consider it's original vision over its drive for RL isk. Too much growth without a consolidation period will always end in disaster. CCP this will really change the make up of the player population of eve and that is not a good thing. The vets who want to remove learning skills, just don't want to train new alt #2487 up again. Don't depend too much on capital from addicts, its not ethical.

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Quote:

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'Last night I played a blank tape at full blast. The mime next door went nuts'

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Quote:

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If I ever saw an amputee getting hanged, I would start yelling out letters.

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Originally by: Takashi Halamoto

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Alot of the people not supporting dont seem to be able to read or read half a line and red mist decended

CCP WILL GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS - THEY ONLY NEED TO FIND A SOLUTION THEN THEY WILL DO IT

ergo there is no arguing for learning skills, they will go as soon as ccp has a solution or says to hell with it and just abolishes them and angers the players because they couldnt get a supported solution

I SUPPORT GIVE ALL CHARACTERS +10 TO ALL STATS

because that increases the divisor for skill learning by 15 for all pilots, and what is a big barrier to new players is the time it takes for them to train up reasonable skills, a flat boost in stats to everyone wont affect the old vets who have +8 - +10 in all stats from learning anyway, but will significantly improve the training time of skills for all players under 1yr old helping them get the skills needed to start doing more faster

REMEMBER THIS IS ABOUT GIVING CCP AN OPTION THAT DOSNT JUST SIMPLY REMOVE THEM AND ANNOY EVERYONE

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Originally by: Takashi Halamoto

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if learning skills had never been in the game it would have taken all us vets another year or more to get to where we currently are, im sure my learning skills havesaved me months, thats the whole reason why we all trained learning skills early, they paid themselves back in spending a month training them by saving us months in the long run, we have had the benefit, lots of it, and by getting +10 to all stats we dont loose anything,

as an example this is like someone investing money in a company
years later share dividends have paid back that investment many times over and the company is about to go under and you complain that just getting your money back isnt fair you want a proift,
You already had the profit it just didnt announce itself

start a new toon on your main (only temporary) load him into eve mon, set up a network of skill plans to train up to all the skills you have right now but without touching learning skills, see how many years that would take, now look at your main characters age,

you got your profit right there, youve saved time, the one resource thats near priceless

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Originally by: Spugg Galdon

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Losing learning skills (all together) is IMO a bad idea. Perhaps (new) people could get an option in character creation to apply some sp in the basic learning skills area. I have no problem with giving new players more SP on character creation.

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Originally by: BFish

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I like learning skills. Personally I think they give new players time to become accustomed to the game, and to figure out what path they want to take.

Not supported.

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Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku

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Why is there so much bitterness in this thread? The idea is simply to allow you to reallocate the SP you put into learning elsewhere.

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Originally by: Gewrixlera

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Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku

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Why is there so much bitterness in this thread? The idea is simply to allow you to reallocate the SP you put into learning elsewhere.

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Why should you reallocate the SP? If you trained the skills you got the benefit of having them. Period, end of sentence. If you didn't train them you didn't. When you have already had the benefit of the skill, why do you deserve additional benefits?

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Originally by: Valea Silpha

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Cons :
The all 5 chars gain least, but only if they haven't broken even on SP yet, and even then it only matters if you are very narrow minded. The benefits they got by being the first people to build or invent or fly a new whatever won't have vanished.

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Originally by: Valea Silpha

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No-one looses with this system. Everyone retains the same total SP and the suggested loss of game time is a total non-issue. Yes, if you have all learning to 5, then you might have lost some gametime, but only if you are still waiting to break even on them, in which case you will be no more behind than you are now. If you only took t2 skills to 4 more than maybe 90 days ago you are gaining time.

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What needs to be changed is people's perception of their neccessity, but that would require changing the basic human nature of min/maxing in games where possible.

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Originally by: William Mill3r

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Whine

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Originally by: Katarlia Simov

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Imagine you are playing another popular MMO, involving bringing doom to elves and goblins. And you decide to go and pick herbs for two months. Would you be complaining at the end that you didn't have any non-herb skills ?

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Originally by: William Mill3r

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Edited by: William Mill3r on 24/06/2010 19:42:35
Katarlia Simov:

Who is whinning ? "learning skills are too hard, they sucks, they are useless plz remove them, /whine /whine"... who is whining there ?

It's ppl who request that learning skills are removed for years and years that are the whinners...

Originally by: Katarlia Simov

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Imagine you are playing another popular MMO, involving bringing doom to elves and goblins. And you decide to go and pick herbs for two months. Would you be complaining at the end that you didn't have any non-herb skills ?

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your comparison doesn't even make any sense, plz get some sense in what you are saying... go back to wow... you are not on the right forum...

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Originally by: Fitz VonHeise

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Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 24/06/2010 19:52:02

I've spent over 2 billion isk on Improved Learning implants (+5's) for many alts.

How will CCP deal with people who now have Learning implants that will soon train nothing?

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Originally by: Fitz VonHeise

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Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 24/06/2010 19:52:02

I've spent over 2 billion isk on Improved Learning implants (+5's) for many alts.

How will CCP deal with people who now have Learning implants that will soon train nothing?

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