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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.05.25 09:55:00 -
[1]
Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.
Solution
- 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes
10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.
- 2. Remove all learning skills.
Like they never existed.
- 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.
Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.
That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.
Now, the question is: Would you be totally satisfied with this change?
Shoot your shot... |

Enzu777
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Posted - 2010.05.25 10:47:00 -
[2]
Please ccp hurry up and do this!
/signed
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Ethos777
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Posted - 2010.05.25 10:49:00 -
[3]
Good solution
I also think it would be reasonable to give all characters an extra +5 to all attributes and either remove the 1-5 implants or use them entirely for stat/skill bonus's like the current sets work.
/signed
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Vehlin
Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.25 11:25:00 -
[4]
Supported
CCP already has the tech in place to allow for accelerated skillpoint gains up to a set limit so it should be possible to implement this.
Problem is you'll still have people whining, they "you should have to do it because I had to" mentality, but then some people are never happy.
This solution deals with learning skills while at the same time giving a return to those who originalaly invested in the skills.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:06:00 -
[5]
What about the SP I would have gained had I had the learning skills from day 1 as new players then effectively would? You forgot to account for that.
A better solution is, just remove the learning skills and tell anyone who complains to STFU.
Best solution is STFU about the learning skills. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Seamus Donohue
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:20:00 -
[6]
I support the proposal of the original post. __________________________________________________ Survivor of Teskanen, fan of John Rourke. |

Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:34:00 -
[7]
Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
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Random MonDistinct
Minmatar Alternative Innovations
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:57:00 -
[8]
This would not make any serious impact on game-play, why loose CSM time on that ? I think it will be better to focus on fixing things which ARE broken or not finished.
Not supported. If we're alone in the universe, it's an awful waste of space. [ALTI] Recruiting Russian Speaking pilots. Location & Timezone are irrelevant |

Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.05.25 14:40:00 -
[9]
Not supported.
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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Netacq
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Posted - 2010.05.25 14:49:00 -
[10]
not supported
One of the unique features of EVE is specialization. Learning skills are part of it.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.05.25 15:41:00 -
[11]
Supported, learning skills were always bad game design. Better to remove them late than never. I would also have no problems with those SP simply vanishing with no reimbursement.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |

De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.05.25 15:49:00 -
[12]
I've weighed in n the learning skills argument before, and I'm still on the same side now. There's nothing wrong with learning skills.
What needs to be changed is people's perception of their neccessity, but that would require changing the basic human nature of min/maxing in games where possible.
So I will simply say what I have always said:
You do not NEED to train learning skills, not even to be competitive, especially in the short term.
Let's face it, if two characters are facing off against each other in combat and they both have a total of 5 million Skill Points in the points relevant to that particular fight, does it really matter how long it took them to accumulate those skill points? Of course not - what will matter is how the points are applied - IOW, the player's skill at effectively using those points to reach the desired outcome.
What learning skills do is allow for a margin of error. They allow your opponent to mis calculate, instead of being able to look at a character and go "Oh he's six months old, he has exactly X skill points". You can still do that, but there's a wider margin of error because you're not sure how much learning he has applied, which shifts the total up or down.
Not supported. --Vel
Originally by: Jiseinoku
Mining is the path to enlightement.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.05.25 15:59:00 -
[13]
CCP needs to just chop the learning skills. People who complain need to HTFU.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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MNagy
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Posted - 2010.05.25 16:09:00 -
[14]
Not Supported.
Learning skills are a love them to hate them set of skills. You always want to put them in cue but they take forver. By putting them in cue, you are speeding up skill learning for later.
I say dont add more - dont get rid of them.
If you dont want to skill them - then dont.
M. |

Kaya Divine
Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.05.25 18:22:00 -
[15]
To those who didn't support:
Do remember that CCP decided that those skills will be removed. We dont discuss here should they be removed or not.
They still are not removed because CCP didn't find solution which would satisfy majority of players.
Shoot your shot... |

Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.25 19:26:00 -
[16]
IMO, we should just cut the skills and HTFU about it. But, I'll support this if for no other reason than to get learning skills out of the game. They exacerbate the SP inadequacy problems new players feel.
If they focus on learning skills: they don't have fun for like two months in the game. WTFM8? If they don't: I'm literally outrunning them on learning new crap, and they feel like I'm pulling even further ahead by the day.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.25 19:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kaya Divine To those who didn't support:
Do remember that CCP decided that those skills will be removed. We dont discuss here should they be removed or not.
They still are not removed because CCP didn't find solution which would satisfy majority of players.
Link?
I remember 1 dev saying once, 4 years ago, that he personally didn't like learning skills.
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Saralle Zhukov
Win Tech Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.25 19:46:00 -
[18]
Learaning skills are stupid. It's an absolutely dumb game mechanic that drives potential new players out of the game. The question I have been asked repeatedly by my real life gaming friends is, "Spend money and how much time on this?" I fully support this or ANY plan that get's rid of learning skills.
----------------------------------- Kill them all God will know his own. |

Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.05.25 19:55:00 -
[19]
I don't think it makes a difference if one supports this or not, CCP recognizes and is aware of the problem, they simply haven't come up with a solution. It's in their best interest to do so and it will probably eventually happen.
CSM time is better spent on other things.
(It has no impact on my argument, but I think the skills are an absolutely dreadful game design mistake. One which is understandable, and understandably hard to correct. Which kind of makes them interesting for those of us interested in such things.) -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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usrevenge
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Posted - 2010.05.25 20:19:00 -
[20]
Edited by: usrevenge on 25/05/2010 20:19:30
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Deckington Forgecaster
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Posted - 2010.05.25 20:37:00 -
[21]
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Psycros
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Posted - 2010.05.25 22:09:00 -
[22]
A buddy of mine who is smart enough to fully grasp this idea says its a good solution. So I guess I'm on board :) I never thought learning skills made much sense. Of course, I could say the same of many things in EVE, but this seems like one CCP might actually fix for a change.
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Dariah Stardweller
Gallente Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.05.26 09:27:00 -
[23]
Learning skills were a design flaw imo. At least the extended learning skills package. Having said that, I don't see how you can reverse it in a way that is 'fair' for everybody.
Basicly, I don't care that much and as such I will not support this topic. 
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.05.26 14:30:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Psycros but this seems like one CCP might actually fix for a change.
Exactly!
Shoot your shot... |

Bernadictus
Caldari Divine Retribution Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.26 15:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: MNagy Not Supported.
Learning skills are a love them to hate them set of skills. You always want to put them in cue but they take forver. By putting them in cue, you are speeding up skill learning for later.
I say dont add more - dont get rid of them.
If you dont want to skill them - then dont.
M.
QFT. Learning skills are fundamental to the EVE game mechanics. You need them in the long term. If you fail to realize that, you fail at EVE.
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Ganre Sorc
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Posted - 2010.05.26 15:13:00 -
[26]
Learning skills are a long term vs. short term investment. By removing that decision, you are hurting not only the old people who trained them(by wasting their time), you are hurting new players by removing what can be an incredibly deep planning moment in their character's life. Not supported, you don't want them, and the bonuses provided, you are not in any way obligated to train them.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.05.26 15:29:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 26/05/2010 15:30:28 Yes.
Learning skills are in my opinion unnecessary, and a deterrent to many people who want to try EVE for just a few weeks. CCP themselves have admitted that their introduction was a mistake, and it's never too late to clean up on them.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.26 16:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
This. Learning skills annoy people, but they're not a problem.
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Gunnanmon
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.05.26 16:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Netacq not supported
One of the unique features of EVE is specialization. Learning skills are part of it.
rofl Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.05.26 17:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
This. Learning skills annoy people, but they're not a problem.
I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion. |
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.05.26 17:36:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
This. Learning skills annoy people, but they're not a problem.
I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.
Confusion? Sure. Many things about Eve confuse new players. I know a great many things about Eve confused me at first and took a long time for me to wrap my brain around.
That's not a bad thing. That confusion is a lot of what kept me interested.
Most long-term players I know relished the "figuring things out" process that comes with learning Eve. I'd say those players, who become long-term, are Eve's target market.. not the easily discouraged because things are confusing. |

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.05.26 17:43:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Most long-term players I know relished the "figuring things out" process that comes with learning Eve. I'd say those players, who become long-term, are Eve's target market.. not the easily discouraged because things are confusing.
Not that kind of confusing..more the kind of 'I know what they do..but whyyy?..'  |

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.05.26 18:11:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Bagehi on 26/05/2010 18:29:08
Originally by: Sokratesz I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.
I have a friend we can call "A". I introduced A to Eve. A enjoyed it for a few weeks, but became rather frustrated with several parts of the game, ultimately leading to her moving on to a different game. These were her complaints:
You mean I have to spend more than a month just to be able to train skills as fast as everyone else?
Why are there all these extra modules for almost the same price which are a lot worse than the modules people use? (talking about named stuff)
This tutorial is really long and boring. Why do I have to learn about mining?
Why can't I click on something to attack it?
These quests are mind-numbingly boring.
A ended up ditching Eve for Hellgate London (which died). Came back to Eve briefly and reiterated how much repetitive action there was, how much time was spent waiting, and how boring missions were, before leaving for Tabula Rasa (which died). Couldn't convince A to try Eve again after that. Considering how games she play end up dying, perhaps that's for the best. However, she still made valid points that are likely echoed by other people who try Eve then quit. There is a certain demand for some linear content to get people into the game that Eve lacks (or lacked, it has been a while since I last ran the tutorial). Ditching the learning skills would allow people to start working on their gameplay-related training right away without any detours.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.26 20:45:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Sokratesz I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.
Every time I've introduced someone to Eve, I've explained it to them and given them the advice to spend maybe half their time on learning skills and half on real skills. Never heard any complaints.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.26 21:05:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Sokratesz I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.
Every time I've introduced someone to Eve, I've explained it to them and given them the advice to spend maybe half their time on learning skills and half on real skills. Never heard any complaints.
Same here. I just tell em that 4+3 is fine, anything after that is a commitment for the really long term, and to make that decision when they make that commitment. One didn't bother with the advanced skills at all until he'd been playing for over a year, another trained up 5+5 before he even started playing (messy divorce at 6 months of his life), the rest ended up in the 4+4 to 5+5 range.
Seriously the whole "LRNING SKILZ ARE EVIL" thing is just people crying to be protected from their own weakness in being unable to restrain themselves from min-maxing. They can't stand the idea that someone, somewhere might be getting a whole 66 SP/hr more than them, but they dont want to put in the time to get that last couple of percent.
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2010.05.26 21:27:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
What depth? Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later? Wow, such freedom of choice. Good to see the e-wang "EVE is not supposed to be accessible to those foul noobs, it's a game for REAL MEN!" brigade out in force.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.05.26 21:30:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kiri Serrensun
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
What depth? Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later? Wow, such freedom of choice. Good to see the e-wang "EVE is not supposed to be accessible to those foul noobs, it's a game for REAL MEN!" brigade out in force.
I was one of those "foul noobs" and I enjoyed the choice. I actually didn't finish up my learning skills until well after 2 years into the game.
Cripple yourself? Nonsense. A level 5 skill is a level 5 skill no matter how long it takes to train it.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.26 21:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Malcanis
Seriously the whole "LRNING SKILZ ARE EVIL" thing is just people crying to be protected from their own weakness in being unable to restrain themselves from min-maxing. They can't stand the idea that someone, somewhere might be getting a whole 66 SP/hr more than them, but they dont want to put in the time to get that last couple of percent.
Your attitude is terrible, and you're absolutely wrong. I find it amusing that you refuse to look beyond your own prejudice of (seemingly) "LOL THEY WEEK MIN MAXER LOL" to "wow, we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game". It doesn't even make any sense, because if they eliminated learning skills most of the people in this thread wouldn't even be affected. WE would all be exactly as we are because WE already paid the piper. Learning skills add nothing to the game. I've introduced several friends to the game and they have almost all quit in the time when they're supposed to be doing learning skills. And yes, I told them to train up some skills to do something in the game first. I mean God Forbid that I have an interest in making Eve not suck for new players.
I mean seriously, how do you justify me as an older player having an ever widening gap in capabilities because I trained learning skills? In order to even slow that gap they've got to spend damn near a month training learning skills. A month that they could have devoted to getting some skills under their feet so that I don't solo their Myrm in a Vigil or something.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |

Therendief
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Posted - 2010.05.26 22:50:00 -
[39]
The people who would be most hurt are this are the new players(for example myself). I am at roughly 5mil SP now in 3 months, and if I lost my learning skills suddenly I would be set way back on both my accounts, having wasted 21 days approx on two accounts(+my extra remap on the second one for training learning skills). So unless a system of bonus is put in, your only hurting the people who joined in the past 6 months(post dominion) who have already put in the time to train them and would now train slower AND have wasted 3+weeks on learning skills. Just my 2cents, supported as per OP. Removing with no bonus NOT SUPPORTED.
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Dominar Solon
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.05.27 01:54:00 -
[40]
I did write up a few paragraphs here and just decided that i did not have enough room to continue. That said I like option 3. It gives those character / players a massive bonus for spending the time training and planning their characters. We get the benefit of learning skills faster over the past few years and we get one final thank you for the SP getting applied to skills to train them very fast. All players now train at the same rate unless you have implants. implants will become in high demand which will drive up their price in the short term. New players will not be faced with useless skill training to train skills.
This allows those older characters to be able to look back and remember something else fondly or egregiously depending on your perspective. Ultimately CCP is a fool if they indeed ever mentioned any task and used the phrase "what can we do that will not make people angry" Regardless the choice, some will be angry. Some will threaten to quit, some might even do just that. But if a decision is to be made I think that this is a good one. All new players train at the same speed as vets. Vets got a bonus for being here and working hard. New players cant be angry about it. Old players should not have sold their account. Vets, well we did our time, and have to go slow like everyone else now but we were rewarded for our service.
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Kiram
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Posted - 2010.05.27 02:20:00 -
[41]
Liang I can justify the gap widening because when I started a few years later than other players who had trained the skills the same thing happened to me.
Several years down the line it isn't an issue anymore for me at all.
Too many ppl view it as a game that you should be able to do everything fast like every other online game which is surprising to me because the main reason I like EVE is because it is so radicaly different from all the others.
Just my thoughts and I accept other PPL want different goals.
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Maksim Cammeren
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Posted - 2010.05.27 02:26:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Therendief The people who would be most hurt are this are the new players(for example myself). I am at roughly 5mil SP now in 3 months, and if I lost my learning skills suddenly I would be set way back on both my accounts, having wasted 21 days approx on two accounts(+my extra remap on the second one for training learning skills). So unless a system of bonus is put in, your only hurting the people who joined in the past 6 months(post dominion) who have already put in the time to train them and would now train slower AND have wasted 3+weeks on learning skills. Just my 2cents, supported as per OP. Removing with no bonus NOT SUPPORTED.
I completely agree. I am at 6 mil SPs, with 2.5 mil in Learning. Noone told me that CCP was trying to remove them, so I would be upset if they just disappeared. However, the proposed solution of essentially distributing the points to other skills sounds fair.
As a new character starting in the game, I was faced with a choice: have fun and learn useful skills now or sit and wait until learning trains up, so I can be more useful later. It was not a fun choice and it does hurt the new player experience. The fast learning of the first 1.6 mil helps, but is not nearly enough for those SP-hungry advanced skills.
Now that I am done with about half the learning skills, I am proud of them. But I would be just as proud if I had that extra 2.5 mil SP in gunnery or spaceship command.
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Therendief
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Posted - 2010.05.27 03:05:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Dominar Solon I did write up a few paragraphs here and just decided that i did not have enough room to continue. That said I like option 3. It gives those character / players a massive bonus for spending the time training and planning their characters. We get the benefit of learning skills faster over the past few years and we get one final thank you for the SP getting applied to skills to train them very fast. All players now train at the same rate unless you have implants. implants will become in high demand which will drive up their price in the short term. New players will not be faced with useless skill training to train skills.
This allows those older characters to be able to look back and remember something else fondly or egregiously depending on your perspective. Ultimately CCP is a fool if they indeed ever mentioned any task and used the phrase "what can we do that will not make people angry" Regardless the choice, some will be angry. Some will threaten to quit, some might even do just that. But if a decision is to be made I think that this is a good one. All new players train at the same speed as vets. Vets got a bonus for being here and working hard. New players cant be angry about it. Old players should not have sold their account. Vets, well we did our time, and have to go slow like everyone else now but we were rewarded for our service.
I believe the OP was considering that the 3 together would be the total solution(max attributes that a character can have, so that everyone would be equalized). Then all the learning skills would be removed, finally the bonus SP used already(often by people training using there bonus SP time) would then be applied at a bonus rate, equal to what was already learned.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.27 08:13:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Malcanis
Seriously the whole "LRNING SKILZ ARE EVIL" thing is just people crying to be protected from their own weakness in being unable to restrain themselves from min-maxing. They can't stand the idea that someone, somewhere might be getting a whole 66 SP/hr more than them, but they dont want to put in the time to get that last couple of percent.
Your attitude is terrible, and you're absolutely wrong. I find it amusing that you refuse to look beyond your own prejudice of (seemingly) "LOL THEY WEEK MIN MAXER LOL" to "wow, we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game". -Liang
WE. DONT. MAKE. THEM. DO. THIS. YOU. LIAR.
It really is laughable that in the very first paragraph of your attempted refutation, you exactly illustrate my point. In no way, shape or form are new players "made" to sit around for any period of time doing nothing fun in the game. It is only their own perception - or, far more frequently the god-awful advice of people like you - that leads them to do this.
You are implicitly assuming that they should do the efficient thing at the expense of fun. That is the living definition of "mini-maxing".
New players can and should be out doing fun stuff from day 1. This is perfectly compatible with training learning skills some but not all of the time. I know that's a pretty complex and radical concept but once you understand it, it's awesome.
I'm not even going to address your terrible restatement of the Never Catch Up fallacy, as it has been refuted so many times that I can only assume that you're trolling.
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Ranka Mei
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Posted - 2010.05.27 09:04:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ethos777 Good solution
I also think it would be reasonable to give all characters an extra +5 to all attributes and either remove the 1-5 implants or use them entirely for stat/skill bonus's like the current sets work.
/signed
Original proposal supported. +1
Your extra proposal supported, too. I've always considered the learning implants a huge reason people don't go PvP en masse: it's one thing to lose a ship; but regularly losing 600+ mil worth of +5 implants, who can afford that? Yes, you can always clone-jump; but if you have to do so every other day, then it's like not having them half the time, after all. +1 --
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.27 09:06:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Bagehi Ditching the learning skills would allow people to start working on their gameplay-related training right away
Originally by: Kiri Serrensun Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later?
Originally by: Liang Nuren we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game the time when they're supposed to be doing learning skills how do you justify me as an older player having an ever widening gap in capabilities because I trained learning skills
The competition was fierce, but Liang takes the Failure At EVE prize for this thread.
Entries still open however.
BTW, how do you justify me as an older player being able to fly a Battleship just because I trained the Battleships skill? -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

ViolenTUK
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.27 09:12:00 -
[47]
Edited by: ViolenTUK on 27/05/2010 09:13:45
Originally by: Kaya Divine Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those,
CCP are no longer looking to remove learning skills. It is true that they regretted introducing them but since CCP have introduced the Skill queue, neural remap and learning speed bonus and since there are so many players strongly for the use of learning skills they see no reason to do so.
Not supported.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.05.27 09:19:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Bagehi Ditching the learning skills would allow people to start working on their gameplay-related training right away
Originally by: Kiri Serrensun Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later?
Originally by: Liang Nuren we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game the time when they're supposed to be doing learning skills how do you justify me as an older player having an ever widening gap in capabilities because I trained learning skills
The competition was fierce, but Liang takes the Failure At EVE prize for this thread.
Entries still open however.
BTW, how do you justify me as an older player being able to fly a Battleship just because I trained the Battleships skill?
Don't give them any ideas. The next proposal will be "Since we all pay subs why don't we have every skill maxed as standard because it's an unfair advantage to only be able to fly rookie ships when we start"?
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.27 09:31:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Malcanis WE. DONT. MAKE. THEM. DO. THIS. YOU. LIAR.
It really is laughable that in the very first paragraph of your attempted refutation, you exactly illustrate my point. In no way, shape or form are new players "made" to sit around for any period of time doing nothing fun in the game. It is only their own perception - or, far more frequently the god-awful advice of people like you - that leads them to do this.
You are implicitly assuming that they should do the efficient thing at the expense of fun. That is the living definition of "mini-maxing".
Semantics. Liang is absolutely right.
Nobody is literally forcing anyone to not go do fun stuff. Yet the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first. Simple as that. Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long. Most folks grasp that doing learning skills first, so you can afterwards train at 2772 sp/h, is probably ever-so slightly more efficient. So, only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.
Hence, Liang is right: learning skills make you do learning first, however loud you decry the fact. --
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.27 09:49:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ranka Mei the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first
So, paying to play a game, playing in a way which offers you no fun, and boring yourself out of said game (i.e. the "noob who is driven out by the learning skills" story) is reasonable?
Originally by: Ranka Mei Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long.
Straw man. A noob will not be training for battleships day 1. Furthermore, BSes are so far down the line that many levels of the learning skills will actually speed it up rather than make it take longer.
Originally by: Ranka Mei only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.
Only a masochist or a blithering idiot will minmax at the cost of enjoyment of a game. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.27 10:20:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Ranka Mei the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first
So, paying to play a game, playing in a way which offers you no fun, and boring yourself out of said game (i.e. the "noob who is driven out by the learning skills" story) is reasonable?
Yeah, it is, actually. It's like being in school: sure, it's always more fun to go outside and play baseball, or go to the mall and hang with your friends. Sooner or later most students 'get' it though: a little less fun in the now will increase it manifold later.
So, if you find that unreasonable, then you're actually saying the learning skills system is unreasonable. But within the learning skills system, yes, learning first is the sensible, reasonable thing to do. Which is why it should be changed.
Quote:
Originally by: Ranka Mei Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long.
Straw man. A noob will not be training for battleships day 1.
Semantics, again; replace 'Battleship IV' with 'Any skill that takes longer than a few days.' Because that's the issue: nobody is gonna feel the slow-training of, say, 'Frigate I'. But people will feel the impact when it comes to longer skills. And even when noobs will be training many short skills first, their falling behind catches up with them rapidly. There's just no way around it: don't do learning skills, and your initial 'fun' will turn sour pretty fast.
Quote:
Originally by: Ranka Mei only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.
Only a masochist or a blithering idiot will minmax at the cost of enjoyment of a game.
If by 'enjoyment' you mean 'instant gratification,' then yes. It's a good thing most people can look beyond that, though; which is why the learning skills are a bad thing. --
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.27 10:50:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ranka Mei It's like being in school
Did you see the part where I italicised game? Think about that. In RL you do unfun things for a long-term benefit. That's life. If you do that in a game, you are probably doing it wrong.
Quote: Semantics, again; replace 'Battleship IV' with 'Any skill that takes longer than a few days.' Because that's the issue: nobody is gonna feel the slow-training of, say, 'Frigate I'.
So noobs doing early skills, who I say should train little or no learning skills, will feel no loss in not having the learning skills, until they start training longer skills, the point at which I suggest they do the learning skills, and the point at which they would start to feel the loss.
Wow. I think the phrase 'working as intended' pretty much sums that up.
Originally by: Ranka Mei But people will feel the impact when it comes to longer skills. And even when noobs will be training many short skills first, their falling behind catches up with them rapidly. There's just no way around it: don't do learning skills, and your initial 'fun' will turn sour pretty fast.
Falling behind WHAT?
THERE IS NO RACE ENGAGE BRAIN ATTEMPT TO COMPREHEND RACE NO THERE IS THERE RACE IS NO NO RACE IS THERE etc
Also, I didn't do the learning skills straight away on any characters except dedicated research alts and the like, and my fun never 'turned sour'. In fact, the only people who seem to have that problem are the people who do do them straight away. So stop talking ****.
Quote: If by 'enjoyment' you mean 'instant gratification,'
False dichotomy; there is a gray area between instant gratification and pure minmaxing, though I wouldn't be surprised if you can't see it.
Furthermore you assume a scale from instant grafication ('fun') to minmaxing ('not fun'), when an individual's idea of fun may actually be located anywhere in that spectrum. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.27 11:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Malcanis WE. DONT. MAKE. THEM. DO. THIS. YOU. LIAR.
It really is laughable that in the very first paragraph of your attempted refutation, you exactly illustrate my point. In no way, shape or form are new players "made" to sit around for any period of time doing nothing fun in the game. It is only their own perception - or, far more frequently the god-awful advice of people like you - that leads them to do this.
You are implicitly assuming that they should do the efficient thing at the expense of fun. That is the living definition of "mini-maxing".
Semantics. Liang is absolutely right.
Nobody is literally forcing anyone to not go do fun stuff. Yet the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first. Simple as that. Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long. Most folks grasp that doing learning skills first, so you can afterwards train at 2772 sp/h, is probably ever-so slightly more efficient. So, only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.
Hence, Liang is right: learning skills make you do learning first, however loud you decry the fact.
*sigh*
You're making exactly the same unproven assumption as Liang. That one must be "efficient". And you're also employing the fallacy of the excluded middle by implying that there's no middle ground between doing no learning skills at all, and doing nothing but learning skills.
Since I specifically mention the concept of training SOME learning skills mixed up with other skill types, I can only assume that you're being deliberately dishonest.
It's just as bad for a new character to train NOTHING but learning skills as it would be for the to train NOTHING except Engineering, or NOTHING except Social skills. If there's one thing a brand new player should NOT be doing it is focusing exclusively on any one skill group.
Given that seemingly obvious (I say 'seemingly', because apparently it's not obvious to you) principle, how on God's green earth can you possibly assert that new players are "made to train nothing but learning"? So far from being made to, it's seemingly obvious they should do nothing of the sort.
Unless you're a helplessly obsessive-compulsive minimaxer, of course 
The only significant problem with Learning skills is griefers (and I use the word deliberately) like you telling new players that they must train learning skills first. You should be ashamed of yourself, because that's a mean thing to do to someone who doesn't know any better.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.27 12:48:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Ranka Mei on 27/05/2010 12:50:11
Originally by: Malcanis *sigh*
You're making exactly the same unproven assumption as Liang. That one must be "efficient".
Um, yeah! :) Because to stake a position that one should play a game deliberately inefficiently is just plain ******ed.
Quote: And you're also employing the fallacy of the excluded middle by implying that there's no middle ground between doing no learning skills at all, and doing nothing but learning skills.
And you're just pulling that out of thin air (or, more likely, from a place where the sun don't shine). Because nowhere, ever, did I say one should only be doing learning skills.
In fact, there's a whole nuance to 'min-max'-ing learning skills that is, no doubt, entirely lost on you. For instance, it's not efficient to spend your entire 1.6 mil SP on learning skills exclusively. The extra gain you get from getting a learning skill to lv V, during the double-speed bonus time, does not outweigh having learnt a regular skill at double speed instead. Also, for the Advanced Learning Skills, getting them all to lv V on a single remap is inefficient too, as each of these Advanced Learning Skills takes 'itself' as main attribute, as it were. For example, 'Clarity', adding 1 additional point to your Perception attribute per skill level, requires Perception + Willpower. Likewise, 'Presence', adding 1 additional point to your Charisma attribute per skill level, requires Charisma + Perception; etc. So, getting these Advanced skills to lv V is really best done the moment you do a favorable remap towards their individual attributes.
Instead of saying one should only be doing learning skills at first, I said: "Yet the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first." And I chose "gravitate towards" with great care, as it's exactly so. Sure, when I got my learning skills to around 3 or so, I trained some other stuff: a handful of support skills, some missile skills, and enough ship skills to fly my Drake. But I nonetheless kept being drawn back to doing learning skills, as they simply are a priority for a newbie. I did not invent that system: I just saw it would benefit me.
Quote: It's just as bad for a new character to train NOTHING but learning skills as it would be for the to train NOTHING except Engineering, or NOTHING except Social skills. If there's one thing a brand new player should NOT be doing it is focusing exclusively on any one skill group.
See, this is the thing you're uncomprehending on: learning skills are NOT the same as any other skill group; they are a 'meta' set: whatever you train with learning skills positively affects all other areas of your training. Hence, they should get priority.
Quote: The only significant problem with Learning skills is griefers (and I use the word deliberately) like you telling new players that they must train learning skills first. You should be ashamed of yourself, because that's a mean thing to do to someone who doesn't know any better.
Yes, I'm sure they're much better off in your hands, being told learning is for nerdy, OCD-ing wimps, and that they should just go have fun, not worrying too much about their future, because it's just a game, after all. [/sarcasm] --
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.27 13:15:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ranka Mei Because to stake a position that one should play a game deliberately inefficiently is just plain ******ed.
Nothing you say will be of any consequence as long as it is predicated on this silliness. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

suspisious
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Posted - 2010.05.27 13:45:00 -
[56]
+1
Theres nothing deep or meaningfull to these learning skill. You have to level em, as early as possible. Or else you simply miss out.
Giving the spend points back is needed though. Someone mentioned correctly that a low level 6 mil point char will be gutted that way without a refund.
Good thing eve already has a system for getting those points back. Get the speed training bonus for the points you invested.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.05.27 14:19:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Therendief The people who would be most hurt are this are the new players(for example myself). I am at roughly 5mil SP now in 3 months, and if I lost my learning skills suddenly I would be set way back on both my accounts, having wasted 21 days approx on two accounts(+my extra remap on the second one for training learning skills). So unless a system of bonus is put in, your only hurting the people who joined in the past 6 months(post dominion) who have already put in the time to train them and would now train slower AND have wasted 3+weeks on learning skills. Just my 2cents, supported as per OP. Removing with no bonus NOT SUPPORTED.
This guy has a right to complain about removing learning skills. The thread actually is for a plan to remove learning skills, but compensate people for them. So you will likely be better off with the change than without, because you would gain the attribute equivalent of max learning skills.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.27 14:22:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ranka Mei Yes, I'm sure they're much better off in your hands, being told learning is for nerdy, OCD-ing wimps, and that they should just go have fun, not worrying too much about their future, because it's just a game, after all. [/sarcasm]
In all sincerity, I genuinely think you should stop playing MMOs for a little while if you think that advice needs a /sacrcasm tag. |

Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.27 14:32:00 -
[59]
Originally by: suspisious You have to level em, as early as possible. Or else you simply miss out.
Incorrect.
Originally by: Bagehi It has nothing to do about "wasting time" or "falling behind" it simply is a time sink.
All skills are simply a time sink. And these ones actually reduce the size of the sink. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.05.27 17:08:00 -
[60]
This seems like a good idea. But why not just give people who have learning skills the sp to put where ever they want? Whats with the 1000% increase in speed?
The only potential drawback I see from this is that we may all be able to learn skills too fast. Maybe only give everyone +7 accross the board and reimburse all the sp spent in learning.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.27 17:12:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Cearain This seems like a good idea. But why not just give people who have learning skills the sp to put where ever they want? Whats with the 1000% increase in speed?
The only potential drawback I see from this is that we may all be able to learn skills too fast. Maybe only give everyone +7 accross the board and reimburse all the sp spent in learning.
I mean obviously we can't respect the choices people have made for their characters, right? That's out of the question.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.05.27 17:33:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Malcanis
I mean obviously we can't respect the choices people have made for their characters, right? That's out of the question.
Huh?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.27 18:34:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Crumplecorn THERE IS NO RACE
You and Malcanis are probably the biggest failure *******s I've seen in Eve recently. What, really, do you think that learning skills add to the game? The simple truth of the matter is that learning skills add nothing to the game except an unnecessary grind that prevents A LARGE NUMBER of people from more fully enjoying the game. How can you deny the game would be better if people could just start training skills?
Also, there absolutely a race. First, you will "race" to get into a ship which you feel will be fun. Second, you will "race" to get into situations which make more ISK - such as doing L4 missions. Third, you will "race" your friends to be able to do something. You will also notice people end up setting 'mileposts' that they want to accomplish, downloading Evemon, and training a bunch of learning skills. The time spent training these learning skills is time that they could have used to become more proficient more quickly. They make the game unfriendly to new comers.
The funny thing is that I'd love to see learning skills removed from the game purely for the sake of making the game more approachable. I don't even care if you credit my accounts with the SP in any way (and three of my five characters have significant learning investments).
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |

The Grouch
FinFleet IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.27 20:55:00 -
[64]
Not Supported. Learning skills are meant to be trained extensively when you're ready to train other skills extensively. "Catching up" is impossible so don't even try. Lastly, I understand excactly what other people are saying here about the "unfunness" factor people have. In eve we call it "ship spinning". It should be a sign that you need to go find something to do. You could train into a assault frigate with tech 2 guns before you even reach your 1.6 mil cutoff, so again I'm just not sure how you wouldn't have something to do while the skills are training.
Makes me wonder how many of you will want other skills dropped because you can't be bother to train them.
Also, this isn't a "I had to do and so do you!" post, its a "Go find something to do instead of watching your skill timer and stop sweating the small stuff" post.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.27 21:18:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Liang Nuren You and Malcanis are probably the biggest failure *******s I've seen in Eve recently. What, really, do you think that learning skills add to the game? The simple truth of the matter is that learning skills add nothing to the game except an unnecessary grind that prevents A LARGE NUMBER of people from more fully enjoying the game. How can you deny the game would be better if people could just start training skills?
Also, there absolutely a race. First, you will "race" to get into a ship which you feel will be fun. Second, you will "race" to get into situations which make more ISK - such as doing L4 missions. Third, you will "race" your friends to be able to do something. You will also notice people end up setting 'mileposts' that they want to accomplish, downloading Evemon, and training a bunch of learning skills. The time spent training these learning skills is time that they could have used to become more proficient more quickly. They make the game unfriendly to new comers.
What do they add? Variety? Complexity? Admittedly only a modi****of each, but apparently even that is too much. Most importantly - Choice? Sure they add a timesink (there is no grind) - just like every other skill. Although they are unique in that they actually reduce the timesink of other skills. And they take nothing away - because no matter how many times you say it, no-one is forced to train them, nor do they prevent anyone from doing anything.
If you choose to use them in a way which makes getting to whatever it is you want slower, in the interest of long-term 'efficiency' - that's your choice. There is no race. Not even if you put 'race' in quotes. Your first and most asinine examples - "racing" into a ship and "racing" into a situation - are even missing a critical element of a race: who are you against? Most people at least mistakenly assert that you are against the other players or some imaginary potential total SP. But, being an imaginary race, I suppose it doesn't really need an opponent?
As for people who choose to race their friends, or set any other time-sensitive/skill-sensitive objective, once again that is their choice.
See what I mean about them adding choice?
If you choose to use them in a way which makes getting to your current objective faster, a request to remove them is just a whine about how long training takes. You can harp on about non-learning skills making you proficient as you go, but really, how does Racial Frigate II make you more proficient with the Tier III frigate you still can't fly? How do half the support skills you need make you more proficient with a fit you can't fit yet? They don't. And let's not even get onto pre-reqs, where you have to 'become more proficient' in things you don't even want if the thing you do want is higher up the ladder.
As you say yourself, most people break down their training into milestones - and no point between here and that milestone is of any interest, whether it is the completion of a learning skill or a non-learning skill.
And if you really really just want immediate benefits and have no plan - you can choose not to train the learning skills, to fit them in some time when you are not concerned with what you are currently training.
See what I mean about them adding choice? -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.27 21:24:00 -
[66]
I wuoldnt mind if they just delete all learning skills, or at least advanced ones, and throw the SP invested in them away (and obviously increase attributes to compensate). Learning skills are just terrible game design that does not add anything to the game.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.05.27 21:28:00 -
[67]
If it is a choice, who has chosen to not train them? The choice is when they train them rather than if they train them. That isn't really a choice. I chose to not train mining. I don't suffer a penalty compared to others because of this. I can make isk in other ways, I can buy minerals, there are other things I can do. That is a choice.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.27 21:31:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Bagehi The choice is [..] That isn't really a choice.
Contradiction. I believe you meant to say "it is not a choice I like therefore it is not a choice".
Originally by: Bagehi I chose to not train mining. I don't suffer a penalty compared to others because of this.
You can't mine. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Lord Cath
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.28 07:11:00 -
[69]
for christ sake, stop trying to WoW'ify this game... Plenty of MMO's out there where you can slay boars for days on end and gain XP. __________________________________________________
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.28 07:28:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Lord Cath for christ sake, stop trying to WoW'ify this game... Plenty of MMO's out there where you can slay boars for days on end and gain XP.
I have no idea what exactly you are trying to compare with WoW, but i have a feeling you are trying to say that boring learning skills that dont serve any purpose besides SP sink is the opposite of WoW, in which case i think eve can use some wow'ifying.
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Lord Cath
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.28 09:15:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Furb Killer
you are trying to say that boring learning skills that dont serve any purpose besides SP sink is the opposite of WoW
What I'm trying to say is that EvE is harder to get into then most MMO's and a lot of people are constantly whining about everything that isnt in an arm's reach in the game... Learning skills do serve a purpose, it's not because you think theyre useless that they realy are... __________________________________________________
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.05.28 11:36:00 -
[72]
If I may remind you that we dont discuss about should learning skills be removed or not. Or whats your personal opinion about them. This topic started as something that have in its base two blocks: 1. CCP wants to remove them 2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.
And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.
Shoot your shot... |

Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.28 11:54:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Kaya Divine 1. CCP wants to remove them 2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.
Can you link to this statement please? I'm pretty sure I've seen it, but I cannot remember where. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Lord Cath
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.28 12:02:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Kaya Divine If I may remind you that we dont discuss about should learning skills be removed or not. Or whats your personal opinion about them. This topic started as something that have in its base two blocks: 1. CCP wants to remove them 2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.
And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.
wait what ?
Kinda overlooked that part in your OP. They seriously want to remove them? Cant realy see any good reason right now, will give it some thought. __________________________________________________
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.05.28 12:12:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Kaya Divine
1. CCP wants to remove them 2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.
And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.
Dev blog / link / proof please or this is hearsay.
I'm not considering their removal "final" because you say it is... sorry.
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GFRoSTY
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Posted - 2010.05.28 12:55:00 -
[76]
Supported. I feel that the 'Learning' skills are outdated and better use of your time would be spent on actually learning a SKILL rather than learning a learning skill!
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.05.28 13:10:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Kaya Divine
1. CCP wants to remove them 2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.
And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.
Dev blog / link / proof please or this is hearsay.
I'm not considering their removal "final" because you say it is... sorry.
Linkage
Shoot your shot... |

Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.28 13:38:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Kaya Divine Linkage
I think I've changed my mind. One of their suggestions is that new players earn the learning skills by doing things - completing epic arcs, getting X kills in faction warfare. Having the learning skills turned into an actual grind by people who apparently haven't got a clue how to play EVE in order to solve a problem which doesn't really exist would be such a fantastic achievement, I can't *not* support it.
While they say themselves they won't actually do that, I hope whatever 'solution' they decide on is equally entertaining. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.28 13:53:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Kaya Divine Linkage
I think I've changed my mind. One of their suggestions is that new players earn the learning skills by doing things - completing epic arcs, getting X kills in faction warfare. Having the learning skills turned into an actual grind by people who apparently haven't got a clue how to play EVE in order to solve a problem which doesn't really exist would be such a fantastic achievement, I can't *not* support it.
While they say themselves they won't actually do that, I hope whatever 'solution' they decide on is equally entertaining.
Tying the learning skills to player kills in FW might be amusing.
Well, for about 4 minutes, until people realise how easy it would be to exploit.
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.05.28 22:49:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Kaya Divine on 28/05/2010 22:53:25
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Kaya Divine Linkage
I think I've changed my mind.
Welcome aboard.
Shoot your shot... |
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.05.30 13:05:00 -
[81]

Shoot your shot... |

Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.30 18:42:00 -
[82]
Interesting video. I'm glad they're officially aware of the problem, but yowzas. Really not a fan of the whole "grind" thing. So the implementation we're discussing would be: - Set learning_bonus_sp = (learning_bonus_sp || current_sp) + sp_in_learning [increment the bonus time to account for whatever their sp in learning is] - delete sp in learning - set attributes to max
Seems easy enough, tbh.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |

Alain Kinsella
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Posted - 2010.05.30 23:53:00 -
[83]
Supported, if only to have my normal +3 implants suddenly act as +5s. 
In regard to the side discussion of 'should Learning be first' I'll weigh in that I spent my first 1.5 days taking the base skills to 4 (the queue helped tremendously here), and then moved on to other things for awhile. This is despite urging from my friend (who got me into this) to head toward 5/5 when possible.
Of course, when I got a donation that would cover the book costs, I grabbed the four Adv versions. Those, until recently, were in various stages of 3/4 (I just squared away all of those to 4, almost a year later). I have no interest in L5 on most of them, for the amount of time involved I can use it better by filling out Orca and Rorqual support skills...
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2010.05.31 11:10:00 -
[84]
-b Well, I could live without compensation too. -b |

Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.31 11:23:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Kaya Divine Welcome aboard.
You do realise that that was sarcasm, and that that video only highlights that this is only seen as a problem by people who desperately fail at EVE (devs or not)? -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Arnba
Caldari Dragon Clan Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.05.31 12:27:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Arnba on 31/05/2010 12:30:45 not supported (idea of removing them at all) but if they'd remove best idea i read about so far
Whats next? does ccp have to give away free +5 Implants?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.31 15:24:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Lord Cath
Originally by: Furb Killer
you are trying to say that boring learning skills that dont serve any purpose besides SP sink is the opposite of WoW
What I'm trying to say is that EvE is harder to get into then most MMO's and a lot of people are constantly whining about everything that isnt in an arm's reach in the game... Learning skills do serve a purpose, it's not because you think theyre useless that they realy are...
Fine if it is harder to get into because it is a sandbox where you can do alot.
However when it is harder to get into because: 1. UI is a disaster. 2. Learning skills are boring and dont add anything It isnt alright. If you like number 2, why not add that you cant train skills for first year, then it will become really hard to get into, and you like that apparently ;)
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Youssef Daunch
Swedish Aerospace Inc
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Posted - 2010.05.31 15:38:00 -
[88]
Oh, yes!
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Tyris Psilo
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Posted - 2010.06.01 05:50:00 -
[89]
I would like to explore this issue from a newcomers perspective, seeing as I'm a newcomer. I'm not sure how long I'll be playing-- shoot, I might not be playing in a month even. I haven't explored the game fully, and I have no clue if I want to play. Now, when I started, a friend told me about the learning skills, and being a mathematically minded person, I saw how incredibly important they are. So, I trained 1-3 in all the skills without a second thought. At this point, I've finished the tutorials and trained the requisite skills the tutorials required, and I still haven't seen what Eve is about at all. I want to go into, say, "Industry," but I quickly realize that without taking the learning skills further, I will fall behind everyone else rapidly, meaning I would be less competitive within a month. If I do take the learning skills further, I won't be able to try industry (or what-have-you) out in the first place, leaving me with the question, "why play the game in the first place, and thus train these skills at all?"
So I did what I was advised to do. I set the learning skills and Tier 2 learning skills to my desired levels and all but ignored the game for a few days. I was away from town anyway, but it's not hard to imagine at all that another person in my same situation would have simply quit the game because he/she didn't feel like spending RL money to run a game that he/she couldn't begin to play. I play games to explore, plan, and have fun. I don't play games to suffer boredom so that I might suffer less boredom later.
Quote from me to a friend to recruit her, "Yeah, if you're going to play, sign up a couple days before you are able to really sit down and play. Otherwise, you'll be stuck doing nothing while you train learning skills."
/signed a fresh out-of-the-box Newbie
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Lord Cath
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.01 06:01:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Tyris Psilo I would like to explore this issue from a newcomers perspective, seeing as I'm a newcomer. I'm not sure how long I'll be playing-- shoot, I might not be playing in a month even. I haven't explored the game fully, and I have no clue if I want to play. Now, when I started, a friend told me about the learning skills, and being a mathematically minded person, I saw how incredibly important they are. So, I trained 1-3 in all the skills without a second thought. At this point, I've finished the tutorials and trained the requisite skills the tutorials required, and I still haven't seen what Eve is about at all. I want to go into, say, "Industry," but I quickly realize that without taking the learning skills further, I will fall behind everyone else rapidly, meaning I would be less competitive within a month. If I do take the learning skills further, I won't be able to try industry (or what-have-you) out in the first place, leaving me with the question, "why play the game in the first place, and thus train these skills at all?"
So I did what I was advised to do. I set the learning skills and Tier 2 learning skills to my desired levels and all but ignored the game for a few days. I was away from town anyway, but it's not hard to imagine at all that another person in my same situation would have simply quit the game because he/she didn't feel like spending RL money to run a game that he/she couldn't begin to play. I play games to explore, plan, and have fun. I don't play games to suffer boredom so that I might suffer less boredom later.
Quote from me to a friend to recruit her, "Yeah, if you're going to play, sign up a couple days before you are able to really sit down and play. Otherwise, you'll be stuck doing nothing while you train learning skills."
/signed a fresh out-of-the-box Newbie
not wanting to be an asshat here, but this game requires patience to be trained to at least lvl 4. The trial argument aside (which I can fully understand), after learnig skills you still have a long way to go if you wanna get the full EvE experience... here's hoping you do pull through tho, in EvE patience usualy gets rewarded. __________________________________________________
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Shardivh
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Posted - 2010.06.01 12:09:00 -
[91]
Good idea
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OPX2
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Posted - 2010.06.01 12:34:00 -
[92]
Remove the learning skill, and double the training speed. SP is only useful up till a certain point, 80M SP pilot wont benefit much at 120M SP. Whereas a new 50K SP pilot would be immensely better at 40M SP. Allows new pilot to quickly get in on the action, and existing pilot to roll alts and open new account.
Also attributes... a bit redundant to me. Since again they only effect the training speed. Perhaps make them more piloting related? (Perception>Agility, Willpower>Tank? Etc) Too similar to other MMO?
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Serinas Setzuni
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Posted - 2010.06.01 21:26:00 -
[93]
I had a simple idea and I'm surprised no one else had brought it up already...
Leave the learning skills in and move them all up to level 5 for everyone, from the starting character to the oldest recruit. Then no one loses a thing and everyone's equal. The main difference between people's training times could then be implants and remaps. (Also, remove the faster training speed up to 1.6m thing, or adjust it to 5m or something)
Voila, new characters could get into the action a little faster, and old characters who hadn't yet leveled all of them to 5 would skill up a bit faster. For those who had them all at L5 already, give them some kind of 'Congratulations' award or some kind of tangible reward? |

Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.01 21:32:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Serinas Setzuni I had a simple idea and I'm surprised no one else had brought it up already...
Don't worry, when CCP gets around to it I'm sure they'll manage to find a solution that infuriates everyone equally. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Rosco Powers
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Posted - 2010.06.01 22:17:00 -
[95]
I think it's a brilliant idea. Maybe it could be as simple as removing the 2nd tier of learning skills and sticking with the basics. But either way...
/supported
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.01 22:33:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Ranka Mei It's like being in school
Did you see the part where I italicised game? Think about that. In RL you do unfun things for a long-term benefit. That's life. If you do that in a game, you are probably doing it wrong.
In EVE you do unfun things for the long-term benefit. That's the learning skills for ya in a nutshell.
See, the thing is, you and Malcanis are barking up the wrong tree: you realize having to spend much time on the learning skills potentially hampers a newbie's enjoyment of the game; yet instead of tackling said learning skills, you get upset with everyone suggesting to new people that they should do them. And that's kinda silly; because as long as learning skills exist, newbies simply will spend a predominant amount of time of their beginner's experience doing those learning skills. Not because I, or others, tell them so, but simply because the learning skills mechanics themselves dictate that a high game-efficiency is best achievied by doing them. I didn't create that game mechanic; CCP did.
Writing very angry posts about how newbies should not be doing so much learning skills, and just have a good time, is simply fruitless. High game-efficiency is geared towards doing the learning skills at an early age; and people like efficiency. In fact, asking people to stop thinking about efficiency and to just to have fun, runs very counter to human nature. You're free to do so, of course; but it's just not very productive.
Instead, were it not much better if you saw the merit of the OP's proposal, and that doing away with the learning skills altogether would serve everyone? The newbie, no longer able to be motivated to wanting to be more efficient in training than he is now, can simply go do as you suggest: have fun. And the older players, provided they won't be training slower than they are now, won't mind either.
Originally by: Malcanis Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players
Ranka Mei's Law: richer, older players always have an overwhelming advantage: live with it. --
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.06.02 10:04:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Serinas Setzuni For those who had them all at L5 already, give them some kind of 'Congratulations' award or some kind of tangible reward?
How about giving "some kind of 'Congratulations' award or some kind of tangible reward" for those who don't have any learning skill trained insted ? Or, pick any set of your skills and change their bonus for mentioned rewards 
.....
IMHO, learning skills were a mistake (and I think I have read CCP considers them a mistake). However, this mistake is of that kind which gets worse when tried to "fix".
It is like a bear trap. You can try to get out by taking of your leg, or you may just sit in it, because the chain the trap is attached appears to be long enough, and surroundings are nice.
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Lena Cakelicious
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Posted - 2010.06.02 17:01:00 -
[98]
I see why learning skills are concidered a flaw in design by some. And especially annoying for newbies. But on the other hadn i agree that it adds another level of specialisation to this game which is what makes eve so special.
However if they remove learnings and i don't get that 10 attributes +10% and that 5.376.000 SP back that i have in learnings i'm out :) i don't spend isk or RL money for a game where the only thing that really matters RL time is (like in training your skills).
I don't see why i would spend 15 a month so i can keep playing but with a lot slower progress. It already takes a crapton of time to train some skills to 5 (like up to two month when you're into capitals) and i refuse to pay the same amount each month when my skill learning speed is effectively halfed.
So there are two options: they add 10 attributes + 10% to each chacater OR they reduce the amount of of money that you pay each month.
AND additionaly reimburse your training time that you have spend on getting your learnings to whatever level you have it at. Else CCP would effectively screw you over almost 2 month worth of game time. Btw I like the idea of compensating this by increasing your learning speed.
So if the removal of learnings is not to be discussed and it's only a matter of how to implement it i support this topic.
- cake
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Lucy Donnahue
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Posted - 2010.06.02 18:41:00 -
[99]
I agree with the removal of learning skills. They are not a fun mechanic, they are an obligation and can really deter new people from getting into the game.
My main character has the tier 1 learning skills trained to 5 (back when it was required for tier 2.
While I support this in spirit, the original proposal might cause some imbalances. Perhaps something were players are rewarded attribute points over time would cause less issues. Maybe something like players at their 1 month mark get +1 to all attributes and so on would work better. |

NIjle
Star Frontiers
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Posted - 2010.06.02 19:34:00 -
[100]
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Ort Lofthus
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2010.06.02 20:44:00 -
[101]
This sounds like a pretty decent way to compensate people for their training time invested in learning while keeping the max rate of SP gain the same and getting rid of a poor mechanic. Its not really fun or fair to newbies to have to invest in a timesink so early in the game. This game is brutal enough on new players.
One thing I would like to add to it though is an isk compensation for the skillbooks. While the base learning skills are cheap as rocks, the advanced ones are rather pricey for new players. I remember having to make sacrifices in what ships I could afford just to buy the learning skillbooks and I feel it would be a kick in the teeth for the newb who just spend their savings to train up these skills just to lose them immediately without getting the isk back.
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.06.03 11:56:00 -
[102]
True.
Shoot your shot... |

Lorna Sicling
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Posted - 2010.06.03 12:31:00 -
[103]
I support this. As a new player (less than 4 months old), I've had to invest a significant proportion of that time learning how to learn.
If the statistics are true that the average time people spend in game is 6 months, then I can genuinely see why. Do I expect to be on a level playing field with somebody 1 year old, 2 years old etc? No, of course not. Would it make me more likely to try low-sec and combat if the month spent training learning skills had been invested in sheilds or armour or guns or missiles? Absolutely!
CCP - fix this now please!
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Stupid McStupidson
Gallente Hoek Lyne and Sinker
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Posted - 2010.06.03 18:34:00 -
[104]
Don't like them, don't train them. Stop being so obsessed with other characters skillpoints. For the one millionth time, doing any given activity, or flying any given ship, you are only using a relatively small subset of SP. Any and all SP not related to that activity is wholly irrelevant. Why does it grate on you that one player gets there in 30 days, when it took you 32?
Players are measured on their knowledge of game mechanics, and their ability to put them to use. You do not need n SP in x amount of time to do this. There is no trophy for reaching a specific number in the least amount of time. A player with faster training times might acquire the ability to perform one mini profession or related group of level V skills in a year.
In any case, high learning skills take progressively longer to pay off, since you could have been training a direct game related skill during that time. Somebody somewhere made a chart covering this, which I can't be arsed to find.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.03 19:11:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Stupid McStupidson Don't like them, don't train them. Stop being so obsessed with other characters skillpoints. For the one millionth time, doing any given activity, or flying any given ship, you are only using a relatively small subset of SP. Any and all SP not related to that activity is wholly irrelevant. Why does it grate on you that one player gets there in 30 days, when it took you 32?
Players are measured on their knowledge of game mechanics, and their ability to put them to use. You do not need n SP in x amount of time to do this. There is no trophy for reaching a specific number in the least amount of time. A player with faster training times might acquire the ability to perform one mini profession or related group of level V skills in a year.
In any case, high learning skills take progressively longer to pay off, since you could have been training a direct game related skill during that time. Somebody somewhere made a chart covering this, which I can't be arsed to find.
It has nothing to do with comparing other players, it has to do with being able to acheive your own train goals faster. You should consider that this is also part of the games mechanics unfortunately. As such training well is also important to a lot of people.
The trophy is that a person can get into what they want that much sooner and fly it well that much sooner. Not everyone wants to fly frigs for the rest of EVE. It has nothing at all to do with characters comparing SP sizes. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Ildryn
The Inf1dels En Garde
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Posted - 2010.06.04 01:44:00 -
[106]
I agree...
I hated doing all that learning stuff. I really think it was a terrible few weeks.
I also hated waiting to get into a battleship with t2 weapons and mods. Can we have all those skills to for our noobs ? I would also like my day old character to be able to fly a carrier with max skills.
Its done to give you discipline. You know that thing most lack their first couple weeks. So if you can't hack the first couple weeks this game is not for you anyway.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.04 08:48:00 -
[107]
Supported. Here's why:
Learning skills in Eve don't actually do anything. They represent an arbitrary time buffer which, if I had to guess, was originally designed to keep the complete newbies from competing with the advanced players. Nobody enjoys training learning skills. We only do it because if we don't, we suffer in the long run. Is there anybody here, anybody at all, who ENJOYED training up learning skills? Of course not. Nobody enjoys sitting around not advancing (or advancing slowly) for a period of x weeks/months.
Given that it obviously isn't fun, we have to ask ourselves, is it necessary? What useful purpose do learning skills serve?
Comparing them to other skills is bad, because they don't actually affect gameplay at all. Comparing them to implants is bad, because there's no risk-reward concerns involved.
If the purpose of the learning skills is to keep newbies from getting too good too fast, well, given that you need a matter of YEARS before you can max every available skill, somehow I don't think this is that great a concern anymore, if it ever was.
If the purpose of learning skills is to enforce a sense of patience, I think waiting a couple of weeks for a level 5 skill should enforce that just fine.
If the purpose of learning skills is to create the impression of character customization, this is a moot point: Most everybody gets learning skills, it's just a matter of when. Those who don't get them usually end up leaving the game as the longer waits for more advanced skills become unbearable.
Remove learning skills, +50 statpoints and a free neural remap across the board, redistribute learning skillpoints in the form of a temporary 10/100x training speed multiplier. Vets get a training boost, rookies don't have to suffer, everybody gets greater control over their character.
Everybody wins.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.06.04 09:14:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/06/2010 09:18:19
Originally by: Ranka Mei people like efficiency
Ask the people who quit because of the learning skills how much they liked being 'efficient'.
A game is not a job. The objective is to have fun. For some this obviously means being as efficient as possible. For many, it doesn't.
Also, Originally by: Ranka Mei you realize having to spend much time on the learning skills having to
Saying this over and over won't make it true.
In other news: Originally by: Black Dranzer They represent an arbitrary time buffer which, if I had to guess, was originally designed to keep the complete newbies from competing with the advanced players
Your persecution complex is stunning, and only matched by your lack of comprehension of the purpose of the learning skills. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.04 09:48:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Crumplecorn In other news: Originally by: Black Dranzer They represent an arbitrary time buffer which, if I had to guess, was originally designed to keep the complete newbies from competing with the advanced players
Your persecution complex is stunning, and only matched by your lack of comprehension of the purpose of the learning skills.
Woah woah, where did that come from?
One, I've been playing Eve on and off since 2005, so I'm not sure how I'd have a persecution complex in regards to being a newbie.
Two, I am honestly unsure as to why learning skills exist. A barrier to entry is all I could really think of, but I included customization because it also seemed like a possibility, and a slightly cynical passing mention to patience because somebody else mentioned it earlier in the thread.
Besides those three reasons, why else should learning skills even exist? If you can take the time to attack my character, you can take the time to attack my points.
I want to hear your opinions.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.06.04 10:16:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/06/2010 10:17:04
Originally by: Black Dranzer One, I've been playing Eve on and off since 2005, so I'm not sure how I'd have a persecution complex in regards to being a newbie.
It certainly seemed that way, given that you'd guess that the reason for a character development change would be to disadvantage new players, when the opposite has always been the case. Really does sound like a narrow-minded [insert playstyle] complaining about how [CCP/EVE/players/god] hates them.
Originally by: Black Dranzer Two, I am honestly unsure as to why learning skills exist.
To make things train faster. That's what they do. They don't provide a barrier, they makes things faster.
Originally by: Black Dranzer Besides those three reasons, why else should learning skills even exist?
I mention some of it Linkage here and there is more scattered throughout the thread. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.04 11:46:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Black Dranzer on 04/06/2010 11:47:13
Originally by: Crumplecorn snip
I'm just going to go straight to attack the false premise that these skills add some kind of variety to the game.
Let's say you have two players, player A and player B. You give them both an identical skill plan: A list of skills to learn, and an order in which to learn them. Now, to make this interesting, you tell player A to max out his learning skills before following along the skill plan.
To start off with, player A is way behind player B in skills (besides learning). But as they both follow the skill plan, something happens: Eventually, player A catches up to player B. This moment in time, we shall refer to as "The Threshold". After crossing the threshold, assuming that player A and B both spend an equal amount of time training skills (and provided that implants are identical for both players, etc etc), player B will NEVER have as many skill points as player A.
The only real "choice" in regards to learning skills is this:
Will you get your learning skills first, or do you plan to be playing for less time than it takes to reach the threshold?
To reiterate this more simply: Ignoring your learning skills is only a good idea if you plan to stop playing the game at some point. The fewer learning skills you get, the shorter your character's lifespan must be for you to not be punished for it.
Any game feature which discourages players from playing is a Bad Thing. The loss of the paltry "choice" that is presented to rookie players is a small price to pay, because when given a choice of "suffer now or suffer later", most new players will leave.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.06.04 12:55:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Black Dranzer Edited by: Black Dranzer on 04/06/2010 11:47:13
Originally by: Crumplecorn snip
I'm just going to go straight to attack the false premise that these skills add some kind of variety to the game.
Let's say you have two players, player A and player B. You give them both an identical skill plan: A list of skills to learn, and an order in which to learn them. Now, to make this interesting, you tell player A to max out his learning skills before following along the skill plan.
To start off with, player A is way behind player B in skills (besides learning). But as they both follow the skill plan, something happens: Eventually, player A catches up to player B. This moment in time, we shall refer to as "The Threshold". After crossing the threshold, assuming that player A and B both spend an equal amount of time training skills (and provided that implants are identical for both players, etc etc), player B will NEVER have as many skill points as player A.
The only real "choice" in regards to learning skills is this:
Will you get your learning skills first, or do you plan to be playing for less time than it takes to reach the threshold?
To reiterate this more simply: Ignoring your learning skills is only a good idea if you plan to stop playing the game at some point. The fewer learning skills you get, the shorter your character's lifespan must be for you to not be punished for it.
Any game feature which discourages players from playing is a Bad Thing. The loss of the paltry "choice" that is presented to rookie players is a small price to pay, because when given a choice of "suffer now or suffer later", most new players will leave.
Let's say you have two high-school graduates, player A and player B. You give them both identical grades and resources, but you send B out into the job market and A to college. : B is going straight to making money and A is ômaxing out his learning skillsö before following along the plan.
To start off with, player A is way behind player B in money. But as they both follow the plan, something (probably) happens: Eventually, player A catches up to player B. This moment in time, we shall refer to as "The Threshold". After crossing the threshold, assuming that player A and B both spend an equal amount of time working and training skills (and provided that implants are identical for both players, etc etc), player B will NEVER have as much money or ôskill pointsö as player A.
You can make the same analogy with two graduates given money û one puts it into savings/investments and one spends it on stuff. Is it a choice? Yep. Is it ômore efficientö to go to college / save money / train learning first. Yes. Do people always choose the most efficient path? Absolutely not. People choose when and where to trade efficiency for convenience / enjoyment / etc all the time. This happens in life and is mirrored in Eve.
Removing choice is bad. Removing depth is bad.
If the learning skills are ever removed, I hope NOTHING replaces them and no bonuses are given. Slow everyone down to the same slow rateà no stat increases, no skill replacements. Nothing.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.04 13:18:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
You can make the same analogy with two graduates given money û one puts it into savings/investments and one spends it on stuff.
Yes, but when the second graduate runs out of money, he doesn't usually kill himself.
You can not reliably compare advancement in real life to advancement in MMOs. Believe me, I've tried; By god have I tried. The fact of the matter is that people are far more willing to leave MMOs than they're willing to leave real life.
When made to choose between the lesser of two evils, an MMO player will leave.
Removing depth can be bad. But it is not unconditionally bad.
Learning skills are not worth the damage the cause.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.06.04 13:26:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
You can make the same analogy with two graduates given money û one puts it into savings/investments and one spends it on stuff.
Yes, but when the second graduate runs out of money, he doesn't usually kill himself.
You can not reliably compare advancement in real life to advancement in MMOs. Believe me, I've tried; By god have I tried. The fact of the matter is that people are far more willing to leave MMOs than they're willing to leave real life.
When made to choose between the lesser of two evils, an MMO player will leave.
Removing depth can be bad. But it is not unconditionally bad.
Learning skills are not worth the damage the cause.
I suppose that's true if your cause is to increase the number of players at a faster rate than Eve has been growing.
Bearing in mind that Eve is one of the most stable success stories in the MMO world and still grows, I'm not sure that should be our concern.
My "cause" would be keeping it true to the complicated, pain-in-the-ass, game that got us all hooked in the first place. Learning skills are part of that picture - and removing them damages the cause.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.04 13:38:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Black Dranzer on 04/06/2010 13:38:25
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri My "cause" would be keeping it true to the complicated, pain-in-the-ass, game that got us all hooked in the first place. Learning skills are part of that picture - and removing them damages the cause.
Eve's appeal is its complexity and its freedom, not being a pain in the ass. There is nothing complex about learning skills (I could summarize them in a paragraph), and they do more to limit freedom than promote it (because if you don't get them before anything else then you screw yourself over). They actively deter newer players.
By your logic, how about we add tier 3 learning skills with 5x training multipliers? Where does it end, and more importantly, why does it end there?
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.06.04 13:39:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/06/2010 13:43:37
Originally by: Black Dranzer Let's say you have two players, player A and player B. You give them both an identical skill plan: A list of skills to learn, and an order in which to learn them. Now, to make this interesting, you tell player A to max out his learning skills before following along the skill plan.
To start off with, player A is way behind player B in skills (besides learning). But as they both follow the skill plan, something happens: Eventually, player A catches up to player B. This moment in time, we shall refer to as "The Threshold". After crossing the threshold, assuming that player A and B both spend an equal amount of time training skills (and provided that implants are identical for both players, etc etc), player B will NEVER have as many skill points as player A.
The only real "choice" in regards to learning skills is this:
Will you get your learning skills first, or do you plan to be playing for less time than it takes to reach the threshold?
To reiterate this more simply: Ignoring your learning skills is only a good idea if you plan to stop playing the game at some point. The fewer learning skills you get, the shorter your character's lifespan must be for you to not be punished for it.
Any game feature which discourages players from playing is a Bad Thing. The loss of the paltry "choice" that is presented to rookie players is a small price to pay, because when given a choice of "suffer now or suffer later", most new players will leave.
As so often happens, your entire argument boils down to the imaginary skills race. Yes, player B will never have as many skill points as A. Fortunately, this doesn't matter in any way shape or form. And in return, player B will have acquired 'real' skills sooner than A, which is presumably what B wants since he chose not to do all the learning skills early on. And therein lies the choice which so many wish to deny but which continues to exist nonetheless: Does B wish to be as effective as possible in the long term, as A does, or does he instead want to focus on the short term for now?
The idea that you get 'punished' for not training the learning skills is also nonsense and is based on another common fallacy; that the training speed you have once you have all the learning skills is the 'baseline', and the learning skills are a mandatory timesink to get there. In fact, your training speed without any learning skills (or implants) is the baseline, and the learning skills merely optionally trade time for a rate increase. There is no punishment, merely a trade of a short-term advantage for a long-term one.
Somewhere in the middle there you came dangerously close to implying that the game is no longer worth playing if you fall behind in the skills race: "Will you get your learning skills first, or do you plan to be playing for less time than it takes to reach the threshold?" etc. I will assume that you did not mean to imply this, since such an implication would be ridiculous on a scale never before witnessed on these fora. Without this implication, you are merely asserting that a player's highest priority must be their position in a non-existent race which, while still nonsense, is a few astronomical units closer to the realms of rational thought.
Originally by: Black Dranzer Learning skills are not worth the damage the cause.
The only damage they cause are the removal of people too foolish to understand what you yourself say is not a particularly complicated part of the game. They were lost before they ever started.
Originally by: Black Dranzer they do more to limit freedom than promote it
People's narrow views of how EVE should be played limit their freedom, the game does not.
Originally by: Black Dranzer By your logic, how about we add tier 3 learning skills with 5x training multipliers? Where does it end, and more importantly, why does it end there?
There have been requests for them. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.04 14:01:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Crumplecorn The idea that you get 'punished' for not training the learning skills is also nonsense and is based on another common fallacy; that the training speed you have once you have all the learning skills is the 'baseline', and the learning skills are a mandatory timesink to get there.
Find me one character who has 3 months of active playtime and who has no learning skill above level 3.
One.
One single character, and I will retract everything I have said, and concede to your point. I will not ask for more players. I will not move onto another point. I will retract all I have said and concede that they are a viable optional skill choice if you find me one single player out of the 200-odd thousand that meets that criteria.
Originally by: Crumplecorn Somewhere in the middle there you came dangerously close to implying that the game is no longer worth playing if you fall behind in the skills race: "Will you get your learning skills first, or do you plan to be playing for less time than it takes to reach the threshold?" etc. I will assume that you did not mean to imply this, since such an implication would be ridiculous on a scale never before witnessed on these fora. Without this implication, you are merely asserting that a player's highest priority must be their position in a non-existent race which, while still nonsense, is a few astronomical units closer to the realms of rational thought.
Stay your tongue. The fact is, after a certain point, there is literally no advantage to having neglected learning skills. Because by the time you reach that point, if you'd invested in learning skills, you'd have those other skills anyway.
Originally by: Crumplecorn The only damage they cause are the removal of people too foolish to understand what you yourself say is not a particularly complicated part of the game. They were lost before they ever started.
Creating a game that nobody will touch is not a goal to aspire to. It's not about understanding, it's about choosing if you want to leave an account to boil for weeks before playing the game or suffering for it if you end up playing longer than you envisioned.
Originally by: Crumplecorn People's narrow views of how EVE should be played limit their freedom, the game does not.
This isn't about perspectives, it's about math.
Originally by: Crumplecorn There have been requests for them.
Well then by all means let's add in tier 4, 5, 6 and 7 learning skills too!
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.06.04 15:00:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Black Dranzer Find me one character who has 3 months of active playtime and who has no learning skill above level 3.
A fallacious request, because even if no-one has done it that does not mean it isn't viable; certainly not with armies of trolls trying to get people to train learning skills until they quit. A foolish request, because I am hardly going to spend the time to find such a person just for you. And finally, a loaded request, since you chose a level of the skills which takes virtually no time to train, and which will thus be part of even the shortest term skill plan.
You're going to need a better substitute for an actual argument than that.
Originally by: Black Dranzer The fact is, after a certain point, there is literally no advantage to having neglected learning skills. Because by the time you reach that point, if you'd invested in learning skills, you'd have those other skills anyway.
Yes. I do believe I mentioned that one was short term and one was long term. And?
Originally by: Black Dranzer Creating a game that nobody will touch is not a goal to aspire to.
And yet CCP aspire to it, and the subscription numbers just keep on rising.
Originally by: Black Dranzer It's not about understanding, it's about choosing if you want to leave an account to boil for weeks before playing the game or suffering for it if you end up playing longer than you envisioned.
I've already told you what is wrong with this. Repeating it won't make it true.
Originally by: Black Dranzer This isn't about perspectives, it's about math.
No, it's about perspective. Math helps you win the race. Perspective lets you realise the race doesn't exist. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.04 15:36:00 -
[119]
Give it up, Crumplecorn. These guys come from games where you "win" by maxing out your character sheet, and they're not capable of/interested in understanding any other way to 'play'. They're not wrong in their terms of reference. That's why you're never going to win them over.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |

Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.06.04 16:22:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Malcanis Give it up, Crumplecorn. These guys come from games where you "win" by maxing out your character sheet, and they're not capable of/interested in understanding any other way to 'play'. They're not wrong in their terms of reference. That's why you're never going to win them over.
New players have three options: - Train everything frustratingly slow until they quit - "I've been playing this game for 6 months and I can barely fly a cruiser!" - Train everything frustratingly slow for a month or two while they get some skills for their profession. Then burn a month on learning skills and continue playing the game. - Burn a month on learning skills and then start playing the game. These people overwhelmingly quit the game because it's incredibly boring.
You may claim that the last option is stupid, but I would counter that all of the options are stupid and that there can be no good options for a new player as long as learning skills are in the game. I would rather people log in and start training useful skills instead of meta skills. This lets them get into a reasonably skilled rifter faster, or a thorax, or rupture, or battleship. This either gives me someone to fly with or someone to shoot - either one's fine with me.
I further find it incredibly ****ing funny that you decry these people as min/maxers when that is exactly the only type of person that can possibly be successful at playing Eve. Eve is a game of progressive specialization until you have a pretty extreme amount of SP - and people that take the "generalist" path tend to just suck at everything. 
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.06.04 16:33:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Malcanis Give it up, Crumplecorn.
Not as long as I have time to kill  Though you're right that minmaxers will likely never see past minmaxing.
Originally by: Liang Nuren - Train everything frustratingly slow until they quit - "I've been playing this game for 6 months and I can barely fly a cruiser!" - Train everything frustratingly slow for a month or two while they get some skills for their profession. Then burn a month on learning skills and continue playing the game. - Burn a month on learning skills and then start playing the game. These people overwhelmingly quit the game because it's incredibly boring.
You conveniently left out the most sensible option for non minmaxers. Protip: The learning skills do not have to be trained all at once.
Originally by: Liang Nuren Eve is a game of progressive specialization until you have a pretty extreme amount of SP
EVE is a game of doing whatever you want until you run out of things you want. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.06.04 16:48:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Liang Nuren - Train everything frustratingly slow until they quit - "I've been playing this game for 6 months and I can barely fly a cruiser!" - Train everything frustratingly slow for a month or two while they get some skills for their profession. Then burn a month on learning skills and continue playing the game. - Burn a month on learning skills and then start playing the game. These people overwhelmingly quit the game because it's incredibly boring.
You conveniently left out the most sensible option for non minmaxers. Protip: The learning skills do not have to be trained all at once.
This is your own way of min/maxing, but ultimately doesn't change the options that the player has - because you're still effectively burning a month of time on learning skills (whether it's all at once or not is kinda immaterial).
Quote:
Originally by: Liang Nuren Eve is a game of progressive specialization until you have a pretty extreme amount of SP
EVE is a game of doing whatever you want until you run out of things you want.
One could argue this, but that end comes much sooner when you do stupid things and generally fail at the game. Even still, learning skills should not stand in the way of doing what you want to do as they currently do.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |

Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.04 17:01:00 -
[123]
Maybe we should have learning skills that help you learn learning skills faster. That would give everyone more options and choices of how to create their character.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.06.04 17:18:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Liang Nuren (whether it's all at once or not is kinda immaterial)
Only if you look at it from a 'will I have as many SPs as the Joneses in 2 years' end game minmaxing point of view.
Originally by: Liang Nuren learning skills should not stand in the way of doing what you want to do as they currently do.
Saying it, not making it true, etc etc. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Cyrus Doul
Cosmic Vacum Cleaners
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Posted - 2010.06.04 17:39:00 -
[125]
Ill sign this if i get to have my 1.8 million sp back. ill even put it into fighters so its not worth anything again and will let me train that hateful fighter bomber book making me not have all the skills in the set.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.06.04 17:58:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Liang Nuren (whether it's all at once or not is kinda immaterial)
Only if you look at it from a 'will I have as many SPs as the Joneses in 2 years' end game minmaxing point of view.
No, not only if I look at it that way. More of a "this price has to be paid so that I don't frustrate the **** out of myself with 75 day battleship 5s" point of view.
Quote: Saying it, not making it true, etc etc.
Yes... exactly. You saying that it doesn't matter if it takes 25 days of 50 days to train a skill doesn't make it true. It does matter. As I said - I would rather have "noobs" start the game and train real skills that help them do something in the game instead of meta skills.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |

Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.04 18:41:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Malcanis Give it up, Crumplecorn. These guys come from games where you "win" by maxing out your character sheet, and they're not capable of/interested in understanding any other way to 'play'. They're not wrong in their terms of reference. That's why you're never going to win them over.
New players have three options: - Train everything frustratingly slow until they quit - "I've been playing this game for 6 months and I can barely fly a cruiser!" - Train everything frustratingly slow for a month or two while they get some skills for their profession. Then burn a month on learning skills and continue playing the game. - Burn a month on learning skills and then start playing the game. These people overwhelmingly quit the game because it's incredibly boring.
You may claim that the last option is stupid...
No, I claim that there's a 4th option, which I have pointed out repeatedly in this an other threads, and you have repeatedly ignored, for whatever reason.
- Intermingle learning skills and other skills; 50% of the initial 1.6M bonused SP will suffice to get a player to 4+4 (4+2 on CHA), at which point he'll be learning at ~90% of the rate of the most maxed out player in the game. You can get to this point within the first month with a well-done skillplan.
If you're going to say that doing this is overly onerous, we'll just have to agree to disagree. As it is, I'm borderline on thinking you're trolling me for ignoring this option every time you reply to my posts. Your refusal to acknowledge anything except extreme options (ALL LEARNINGS TO V BEFORE UNDOCKING) in either direction (NOT ONE RANK IN LEARNING SKILLS BEFORE HAC V!) makes discussion with you pointless.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |

Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.06.04 19:13:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Malcanis
No, I claim that there's a 4th option, which I have pointed out repeatedly in this an other threads, and you have repeatedly ignored, for whatever reason.
I didn't ignore that option at all. You're acting like this somehow means that they didn't burn this time training meta skills instead of real skills. This entire thread can be summed up with choosing between two situations:
1. People log in and they spend time training other skills so that they can train skills. This significantly delays their ability to train real skills. 2. People log in and train real skills.
You're choosing #1 for brain dead reasons - straight up. There's no excuse for this game having learning skills.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |

xChevalierx
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Posted - 2010.06.05 00:12:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Cearain Maybe we should have learning skills that help you learn learning skills faster. That would give everyone more options and choices of how to create their character.
lol, pure genius, but why stop there. We can also have learning skills that help the learning skills that help your learning skills train faster for mad leet training.
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Darkwolf
Caldari TOG Empire DRACONIAN COVENANT
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Posted - 2010.06.05 01:37:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Darkwolf on 05/06/2010 01:37:09
Originally by: xChevalierx lol, pure genius, but why stop there. We can also have learning skills that help the learning skills that help your learning skills train faster for mad leet training.
Yo dawg, we heard you like learning, so we put your learning on your learning so you can learn while you learn.
Anyway. Personally, I think Learning skills are an unnecessary isk and time sink for new players, and should go. However, for those of us that have already learned them, I also think that we should get a "training bonus" equal to the amount of points we've already spent in learning, so we can distribute that SP (and the time!) elsewhere when they are removed.
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arbiter reformed
Reverse Psychology. HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.05 02:05:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 26/05/2010 15:30:28 Yes.
Learning skills are in my opinion unnecessary, and a deterrent to many people who want to try EVE for just a few weeks. CCP themselves have admitted that their introduction was a mistake, and it's never too late to clean up on them.
this
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LoRDa RaMOs
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
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Posted - 2010.06.05 18:08:00 -
[132]
Of course they will remove them and make your gameplay slower so you can suscribe for longer. Kind of. This is an elegant solution tho, so supported.
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jentaki
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Posted - 2010.06.05 18:53:00 -
[133]
If CCP are indeed looking to remove learning skills then i too would like a SP boost equal to the sp trained in learning.
I support LP replacement. Either in a short skill train boost in game or a web based one time sp skill plan creation and completion.
so if they are doing away with learning it stands to reason they are doing away with attributes. what are they going to be doing with 1-5 slot implants?
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.06.06 06:30:00 -
[134]
Originally by: jentaki
so if they are doing away with learning it stands to reason they are doing away with attributes. what are they going to be doing with 1-5 slot implants?
Not with learning, but with learning skills. You will have your attributes for other skills, they will just be automatically increased by 10 +10%...so you will benefit from implants in the same way as you do today.
Shoot your shot... |

Asik Rova
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Posted - 2010.06.06 08:17:00 -
[135]
supported
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Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.06 11:58:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45 I dont support this.
So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.
This has zero to do with new players. There is a point as a new player were you have to come to grips with the fact your never going to be on the same sp level as all the older players. That is what turns new players away not the learning skills themself they just make them face that fact sooner reather then later.
Secondly is I dont want eve to be like all the other mmo's man. I dont want to race to a cap level. I hated that alot. I like that fact there is no cap level and that they keep adding more skills all the time so you always have something to work on in the skills part of eve.
Lastly you truely dont need massive sp to compet in one single thing. You just need to train the right sp pool for what you plan to be doing. And pick something that you will like doing for a spell as it will take time to train the right sp pool to go and do something alse.
Edit: Eve is not a instant gradifaction game its a game were you have to take time to evolve your toon. Dont jack with the balance or the force will bite us all in the rear. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Serinas Setzuni
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Posted - 2010.06.06 13:17:00 -
[137]
I know with my first character I reached the 1.6m mark without much in the way of learning skills trained... Seeing all the learning skills baloon to many days each convinced me to reroll... If I hadn't been enjoying Eve, this post wouldn't exist...
I am sometimes tempted to start another alt and train her 'properly' with all learning skills to 4 or 5, but then I consider the training time to do so and realize that I should just stick to my main and just drop in another learning skill whenever I don't know what to train...
I know now that if I had stuck to that first character, I would have spent my second month training learning skills and might be that much closer to all the things I want to do in Eve... and I probably wouldn't be split up amongst so many things... Ah well, something to think about when I someday get another account, she can resume her training then...
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.06.06 22:30:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Rip Minner Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45
So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.
Yet again I will underline the fact that we dont discuss here about should they be removed...because its something CCP is working on. But about what will happen, and whats the best solution for theirs removal.
Shoot your shot... |

Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.07 01:18:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Kaya Divine
Originally by: Rip Minner Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45
So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.
Yet again I will underline the fact that we dont discuss here about should they be removed...because its something CCP is working on. But about what will happen, and whats the best solution for theirs removal.
Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.06.07 03:30:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Rip Minner
Originally by: Kaya Divine
Originally by: Rip Minner Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45
So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.
Yet again I will underline the fact that we dont discuss here about should they be removed...because its something CCP is working on. But about what will happen, and whats the best solution for theirs removal.
Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon.
You shouldn't be angry towards strangers, you should meditate and find peace in yourself before wondering around forums. Its good for karma...and stress levels.
If you did read this topic then you would seen a link, and by watching video linked you would come to realization that you are wrong. Second, you are not forced to post in this topic, you did that with your own free will. And because this topic is not about should they, or when...but how...at least pretend that you know about subject before starting an argument.
Shoot your shot... |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 03:34:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Rip Minner Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon.
First, would you mind reading the thread before you go off flaming? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgUwEztj28#t=38m40s
Second, learning skills basically present us with these two options: 1. People log in and they spend time training other skills so that they can train skills. This significantly delays their ability to train real skills - no matter if they train their skills all at once ("best result") or interspersed ("80/20 result"). 2. People log in and train real skills.
The proper solution is ALWAYS going to be #2 from a new player's perspective. And as a corp CEO (not that we recruit noobs...), I'd really prefer #2 as well. AND I DON'T EVEN GIVE A **** IF THEY GIVE ME MY SP BACK IN ANY WAY. But dammit learning skills do nothing but detract from the game. Remove them already.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |

Surda Elysium
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Posted - 2010.06.07 03:59:00 -
[142]
I support the removal of Learning skills. Many a newb has been turned off by the common (yet false) perception that you need to train Learning skills first to get anywhere in the game. Removing Learning skills gets newbies faster into flying ships and having fun, retaining their interest in the game.
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Crysetra Envgardian
Pilipino Corp Primary.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 04:22:00 -
[143]
I wish CCP could implement this change already. Players coming from other games are inclined to think SP = levels and always think they are forced to train Learning skills in order to "catch up" with veteran players. The real problem is training Learning skills don't help you do anything fun in the game, and that is when many new players leave.
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Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.07 07:09:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Rip Minner Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon.
First, would you mind reading the thread before you go off flaming? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgUwEztj28#t=38m40s
Second, learning skills basically present us with these two options: 1. People log in and they spend time training other skills so that they can train skills. This significantly delays their ability to train real skills - no matter if they train their skills all at once ("best result") or interspersed ("80/20 result"). 2. People log in and train real skills.
The proper solution is ALWAYS going to be #2 from a new player's perspective. And as a corp CEO (not that we recruit noobs...), I'd really prefer #2 as well. AND I DON'T EVEN GIVE A **** IF THEY GIVE ME MY SP BACK IN ANY WAY. But dammit learning skills do nothing but detract from the game. Remove them already.
-Liang
Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.
You got to see its the same old song and dance. It ant going to happen anytime soon. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 16:19:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Rip Minner Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.
You know, in the life of a game where WIS has been a planned expansion for 4 years and it took 2 years for the latest nano nerf to hit... 1 year isn't so long. Hell its only 2 expansion cycles for a problem they admitted was difficult to solve - mostly because sticks in the mud like you want people wasting time with learning skills instead of jumping right into the game.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |

Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.09 07:31:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 09/06/2010 07:37:28 Edited by: Rip Minner on 09/06/2010 07:32:19
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Rip Minner Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.
You know, in the life of a game where WIS has been a planned expansion for 4 years and it took 2 years for the latest nano nerf to hit... 1 year isn't so long. Hell its only 2 expansion cycles for a problem they admitted was difficult to solve - mostly because sticks in the mud like you want people wasting time with learning skills instead of jumping right into the game.
-Liang
No your wrong I would love for them to refund my sp's and I would take full advanage of starting sleeper accounts for R&D datacores. I'm just saying it ant going to happen anytime soon.
You see there are more problems then just giving the sp's to people that already trained this skills it removes alot of barrers for older players to explot too.
Edit whats to stop older players from starting a fresh Training first thing for +% implants and speed training to R&D on the toons one account and just sleeping it. Nothing and You can now do it in so much faster if you bypass learning skills. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Black Dranzer
|
Posted - 2010.06.09 14:35:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Rip Minner stuff
This man bring sup the first relevant point I've seen in this thread: Vulnerability to exploitation. I personally believe the exploitation risk is fairly minor, but I have no hard and fast counters to this because industry isn't my game.
----------------------------------------
I've been thinking about this for a few days, and I haven't really changed my mind; I saw one post in another thread, they basically said that learning skills are optional in the same way that legs are optional. You won't die without them, and you can still get around, but it's generally going to be extremely slow and inefficient, and good luck competing with anybody else who isn't also missing limbs.
The fact is, there is a skill race. That skill race has a cap in the way that you can only get so efficient at piloting a specific ship, and the returns are diminishing, but ultimately, there is a race. It'd be different if we were just wandering around whacking wolves for 20 exp a piece, but this isn't a standard MMO; Eve is, and always has been, very PvP centric.
If you're going to get learning skills, you're going to have to spend a lot of time learning them when you could be learning skills that actually provide some useful purpose. If you're not going to get learning skills, you're crippled compared to those who are. It doesn't matter if you get learning skills right away or after 5 years or spread out over the space of six months, you're still going to be burning that time. And if you're going to get them, the sooner you get them, the better off you are in the long run.
But I really need to say this hard and fast: Without the speed increase from the learning skills, Eve is horrendously slow. That's a completely subjective opinion, but given how many people have high level learning skills, I'm going to take a stab and guess that a lot of people agree with me.
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DProto
|
Posted - 2010.06.09 19:05:00 -
[148]
/Signed
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
|
Posted - 2010.06.10 18:39:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Rip Minner Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.
You know, in the life of a game where WIS has been a planned expansion for 4 years and it took 2 years for the latest nano nerf to hit... 1 year isn't so long. Hell its only 2 expansion cycles for a problem they admitted was difficult to solve - mostly because sticks in the mud like you want people wasting time with learning skills instead of jumping right into the game.
-Liang
Good point.
Shoot your shot... |

Steelshine
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 06:15:00 -
[150]
Supported.
I recently got a friend to try out the game, loved the tutorial and was interested. He's still up in the air about subscribing/buying but when I explained he'd be well off training learning skill first it somewhat deflated him. He's a smart enough player to realize they are extremely helpful long term, but what I think some of the detractors here fail to forget is that sinking 2 weeks - 1month into something is commonplace when you have 20m SP, during your first month or two when you can hardly fly anything or use anything, buckling down and training for nothing but +1 attributes for weeks seems...lame.
Removing skills and giving everyone +10 and +10% simply makes it easier for new players to get into the game. I'd appreciate a refund, but it's really not necessary. And if this is one more thing that helps retain new subscribers, then i'm all for it. New people are the continued life of the game.
|
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 07:20:00 -
[151]
Screw it I dont even care any more. Just give me my 1,892,315 SP back and we can all get on with our lives.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |

devilsspawn
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 10:47:00 -
[152]
If CCP are taking away the deep safe spots because they are an advantage to older players that have them, then they should take away learning skills as well. It is the same principle; Newer players are at a disadvantage because of the lack of the learning skills being trained, where as the older players already have them.
And for those that will argue that the difference is that you cannot make the safe spots anymore, where as you can still train the learning skills, new players get a 2x training time multiplier for 1.6M SP's, whereas we did NOT get that a few years ago.
I think it is best to get rid of the learning skills, and credit them to the players in a way that they can distribute them to skills as they see fit, not as an increase to training speed. The time was already spent in training the skills, so we should be able to keep those SP's and not spend even more time to get them back.
I support this idea.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 11:14:00 -
[153]
Not Supported.
Learning skills are not the factor that drive newer players away. It is the factor that drives players that would much rather play WoW away.
We have to be careful how much we dilute this game and make skill progression too easy. When I was a noob I invested the time for learning skills, I was not bored. I killed a few miners, I had a war, even though I was a corporation of one. If you define your time in eve as skills, then you are missing the point. Eve is about stories, not skills. If you wont play a game because of a little thing like learning skills, then GTFO. These people are not going to contribute to wild and adventurous things within eve, just more whines and more standardization.
Eve is a sandbox, unfortunately as more time passes I see a growing trend in eve to move away from the traditional chaos and diversity to standardization. Less flavour and more of the same. Learning skills are vital to the "Butterfly Effect" of eve and should not be regarded as just a skill set that does nothing. They create a greater differentiation between all players; new and old. This means that age isn't everything in eve as like so many other choices, learning skills in effect create a discontinuity that eve IMO is defined by.
Be careful how many of these things you standardise, because the eve you know and love is in danger of becoming just another MMO.
Learning skills should stay for the benefit of eve's dynamism. At some point CCP needs to consider it's original vision over its drive for RL isk. Too much growth without a consolidation period will always end in disaster. CCP this will really change the make up of the player population of eve and that is not a good thing. The vets who want to remove learning skills, just don't want to train new alt #2487 up again. Don't depend too much on capital from addicts, its not ethical.
PI POS fuel process flow chart v1.0 |

Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 12:43:00 -
[154]
Originally by: devilsspawn If CCP are taking away the deep safe spots because they are an advantage to older players that have them, then they should take away learning skills as well. It is the same principle; Newer players are at a disadvantage because of the lack of the learning skills being trained, where as the older players already have them.
By that logic we should get rid of level V skills because the vets have more of them than the new players, and it takes sooo long for the poor newbies to train them! Hell, let's get rid of isk - the vets have more than the newbies! Capital ships.. those damn veterans have more of those - everything must go! Every new account should have all of the same stuff as a five year old account!
Where does the whining/madness stop? Still not supported.
|

Kushan
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 13:08:00 -
[155]
Mmmmm, yes.
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Black Dranzer
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 13:58:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: devilsspawn If CCP are taking away the deep safe spots because they are an advantage to older players that have them, then they should take away learning skills as well. It is the same principle; Newer players are at a disadvantage because of the lack of the learning skills being trained, where as the older players already have them.
By that logic we should get rid of level V skills because the vets have more of them than the new players, and it takes sooo long for the poor newbies to train them! Hell, let's get rid of isk - the vets have more than the newbies! Capital ships.. those damn veterans have more of those - everything must go! Every new account should have all of the same stuff as a five year old account!
Where does the whining/madness stop? Still not supported.
Learning skills don't do anything.
They don't influence how well your ship flies. They don't influence your guns. They don't influence your market abilities or your industrial investments.
If you remove any other skill, then you take some depth out of combat or industry. Something is lost. But if you removed a learning skill, nothing would change. Level 1 skills would still be level 1 skills and level 5 skills would still be level 5 skills.
This is an important distinction that not enough people seem to get.
You could say that without them you get too many people with too high skills, but given how big and grindy Eve is even with maxed stats, I don't think that's fair to say.
Did you know that it'll take me over a month to get Advanced Weapon Upgrades to level 5? A month for a 2% decrease in powergrid requirements for turrets and launcher bays.
Somehow I don't think Eve is going to collapse if we kill off learning skills.
|

Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 14:14:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Black Dranzer Learning skills don't do anything.
Tell that to someone who never trains any of them.
Originally by: Black Dranzer If you remove any other skill, then you take some depth out of combat or industry.
And if you remove these you take some depth out of the skill tree. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 14:19:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 11/06/2010 14:18:43 Solution 1 is fully supported.
Wasting time to save time; wasn't that fun a game concept after all.
---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Online Lorebook
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Black Dranzer
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 16:12:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Black Dranzer on 11/06/2010 16:17:01
Originally by: Crumplecorn And if you remove these you take some depth out of the skill tree.
http://www.eve-files.com/media/0802/skillchart.png
Edit:
I was just going to leave it at that, but it occurs to me that you are actually mistaken.
The Learning skills do not influence the depth of the Eve skill tree. They exist in an isolated pocket, above and outside of the Skill tree. They have no affect on any other skills except the time it takes to absorb them. They are not prerequisites. Not only do they not add depth to the skill tree, I think they're the only skills that don't.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 16:41:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Black Dranzer I don't know the difference between depth and breadth.
The learning skills are the only skills that offer any depth at all in the skill tree; without them it is simply a direct train to whatever you want. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |
|

Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 16:55:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Black Dranzer I don't know the difference between depth and breadth.
The learning skills are the only skills that offer any depth at all in the skill tree; without them it is simply a direct train to whatever you want.
Definitely a direct train when you're going after something like the Triage module... yep any noob can train it and use it effectively. The "depth" you speak of is a bad thing. 
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |

Black Dranzer
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 17:35:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Crumplecorn I have warped ideas of depth and breadth, I know how to warp quotes
You are standing here. You are telling me, with a straight face, that you would turn down the following:
Reimbursement of a load of skill points (and maybe a minor isk reimbursement) A friendlier world for newbies who will never have any hope of overpowering you anyway Possibly faster training times (depending on if you have your learning skills maxed or not)
At the cost of:
11 skills that all have the same basic meta affect and that have never had any direct influence on industry or combat are now obsolete
You would actually sacrifice the good not just of others but also of yourself in the name of having 11 extra icons on your skills interface. An interface which is already loaded with skills, an interface that you could never hope of fully filling in anyway.
You are either a masochist, a sadist, or obsessive compulsive. Either you like suffering, you like seeing others suffer, or having those learning skills fulfills some deep need in you to see large completed spreadsheets. I have been over the problem a dozen times. You're not an idiot, like many. You understand the problem. You understand the arguments. You just don't agree for some bizarre reason that I may simply be unable to appreciate because I'm cursed with a mind that's designed to think outside of its own space.
The only people who enjoy getting learning skills are those who enjoy seeing progress bars climb. The enjoyment of watching progress bars climb could be better spent on other skills without screwing over all but an obsessive minority. Any new player presented with all the facts would surely choose to have learning skills removed.
Perhaps you simply have a burning desire for the days of old, and will cling to that past even if it leaves the world around you burning. Either way, I give up. I don't know what convoluted agenda you hold, but I am certain that it is deep seated, emotional, and altogether irrational.
Fitting for a Gallente.
|

Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2010.06.11 22:04:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Black Dranzer words
While that was quite a well written analysis, it is predicated on the assumption that I care if they remove the learning skills. I don't. (Nor do I see any reason to 'reimburse' vets for skills they would effectively still have)
I have no agenda. Remove them, don't remove them, makes no difference to me. I simply disagree with the arguments made in favour of removing them. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |

Kismo
|
Posted - 2010.06.12 15:53:00 -
[164]
you obviously do care if they remove learning skills otherwise you wouldnt troll the thread so hard. its bad for noobs so make them go
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Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2010.06.13 06:56:00 -
[165]
What is this? I don't support OP's silly proposal.
Here, he puts up better than I do.
Originally by: Celeste Coeval Not Supported.
Learning skills are not the factor that drive newer players away. It is the factor that drives players that would much rather play WoW away.
We have to be careful how much we dilute this game and make skill progression too easy. When I was a noob I invested the time for learning skills, I was not bored. I killed a few miners, I had a war, even though I was a corporation of one. If you define your time in eve as skills, then you are missing the point. Eve is about stories, not skills. If you wont play a game because of a little thing like learning skills, then GTFO. These people are not going to contribute to wild and adventurous things within eve, just more whines and more standardization.
Eve is a sandbox, unfortunately as more time passes I see a growing trend in eve to move away from the traditional chaos and diversity to standardization. Less flavour and more of the same. Learning skills are vital to the "Butterfly Effect" of eve and should not be regarded as just a skill set that does nothing. They create a greater differentiation between all players; new and old. This means that age isn't everything in eve as like so many other choices, learning skills in effect create a discontinuity that eve IMO is defined by.
Be careful how many of these things you standardise, because the eve you know and love is in danger of becoming just another MMO.
Learning skills should stay for the benefit of eve's dynamism. At some point CCP needs to consider it's original vision over its drive for RL isk. Too much growth without a consolidation period will always end in disaster. CCP this will really change the make up of the player population of eve and that is not a good thing. The vets who want to remove learning skills, just don't want to train new alt #2487 up again. Don't depend too much on capital from addicts, its not ethical.
QFT |

AncientGuardian
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.06.13 07:30:00 -
[166]
I agree with the OP in principle.
IMHO, If CCP really wants to dump the learning skills, then just slap all chars with a pool.
89 Skill points (39base points + 50 from maxed learning skills) in a pool, that players could cash on each attribute. However, I feel that the base learning skill itself should be kept, doing the same thing it does now, adds 2% per skill level to the total SP on each attribute.
Then, pull the total skill points that was used into a respec pool that players can distribute to which ever skill they want
In principle, I agree with the OP, I think the method should be slightly different, I like the Pooled concept a bit better than a fixed attribute map.
Quote:
'Last night I played a blank tape at full blast. The mime next door went nuts'
Quote:
If I ever saw an amputee getting hanged, I would start yelling out letters.
|

Harrent
Caldari Journeys End Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.06.13 09:00:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Harrent on 13/06/2010 09:00:03 Learning skills are a viable tactic in determining the ability of a pesron to allocate skills in a realistic and game changing way.
Whether or not people choose to train them will either better or worsen their experience to eve. The REMAP feature along with implants make these skills optional to train; however, beneficial if trained early.
This is a benefit to the game.
This topic is NOT supported. Learning skills add a significant feature to the game. 2ó have been added to this thread. |

fairimear
BURN EDEN Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2010.06.13 11:33:00 -
[168]
Edited by: fairimear on 13/06/2010 11:33:18 They are stupid. every one who has sp in them should have it refunded onto their training que. All characters existing and new should then have the maximum potential attributes for their bloodline and what the current learning skills would have added.
Simple. End of talk should just be done. No one can really argue. People without them now get the bonus. People with them get keep their sp and maybe get to fly a new ship or sumthing.
Bringing a type of class to PL. |

Sodapope Paperstraws
|
Posted - 2010.06.13 19:07:00 -
[169]
Learning skills basically look like a tacky facebook game feature, like paying money for extra turns.
A new player doesn't know what the full skill tree looks like. Generally, before research, players will assume after seeing the second tier that there is probably additional skills beyond the 11 that actually exist, and don't put much more thought into the game after that.
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elenor drifter
|
Posted - 2010.06.15 10:59:00 -
[170]
ok not saw if this has been mentioned in among the tons of repplys to this thred,
the skills should still mean somthing they are a majure part of the eve learning slope,
if ur gonna take the attribute enhancement away then dont get rid of the skill, give it a different bonus like
1.5% bonus to accumulated SP PH (primary attribute)0.025% bonus (secondary atribute) to all skills requireing its ond atribute enhancement, so at lvl 5 it would give a 7.5% bonus to total SP gained (primary attribute) 0.125% (secondary) u could have one new skill un the learning headding for each seperate tree (whilst keeping the learning skill its self)
|
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Takashi Halamoto
No Limit Productions Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.06.15 11:35:00 -
[171]
Alot of the people not supporting dont seem to be able to read or read half a line and red mist decended
CCP WILL GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS - THEY ONLY NEED TO FIND A SOLUTION THEN THEY WILL DO IT
ergo there is no arguing for learning skills, they will go as soon as ccp has a solution or says to hell with it and just abolishes them and angers the players because they couldnt get a supported solution
I SUPPORT GIVE ALL CHARACTERS +10 TO ALL STATS
because that increases the divisor for skill learning by 15 for all pilots, and what is a big barrier to new players is the time it takes for them to train up reasonable skills, a flat boost in stats to everyone wont affect the old vets who have +8 - +10 in all stats from learning anyway, but will significantly improve the training time of skills for all players under 1yr old helping them get the skills needed to start doing more faster
REMEMBER THIS IS ABOUT GIVING CCP AN OPTION THAT DOSNT JUST SIMPLY REMOVE THEM AND ANNOY EVERYONE Me? im just sitting here,
|

Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
|
Posted - 2010.06.16 02:01:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Takashi Halamoto Alot of the people not supporting dont seem to be able to read or read half a line and red mist decended
CCP WILL GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS - THEY ONLY NEED TO FIND A SOLUTION THEN THEY WILL DO IT
ergo there is no arguing for learning skills, they will go as soon as ccp has a solution or says to hell with it and just abolishes them and angers the players because they couldnt get a supported solution
I SUPPORT GIVE ALL CHARACTERS +10 TO ALL STATS
because that increases the divisor for skill learning by 15 for all pilots, and what is a big barrier to new players is the time it takes for them to train up reasonable skills, a flat boost in stats to everyone wont affect the old vets who have +8 - +10 in all stats from learning anyway, but will significantly improve the training time of skills for all players under 1yr old helping them get the skills needed to start doing more faster
REMEMBER THIS IS ABOUT GIVING CCP AN OPTION THAT DOSNT JUST SIMPLY REMOVE THEM AND ANNOY EVERYONE
I dont care and probly most dont care about the if they add stats to all or boost training times. What realy maters for us older players the trained them up is geting to spend thoughs sp's right now on the skills we want them in.
Becouse we already spent that time training. Not only that we have +5mil sp's in max training skills but when we trained them it was a much longer training time to get up to them.
So the real deal here is do we just give them the +5mil sp's they have in there training skills are do we also rembust them and addital amout of sp's for all the time they spent training learning skills with out max learning skills to help them train them?
I say remburs all learning skills SP + 10% sp as compistion. And let that pilot pick were he wants to place the sp right at that moment he logs in to his toon. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Takashi Halamoto
No Limit Productions Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.06.16 08:18:00 -
[173]
if learning skills had never been in the game it would have taken all us vets another year or more to get to where we currently are, im sure my learning skills havesaved me months, thats the whole reason why we all trained learning skills early, they paid themselves back in spending a month training them by saving us months in the long run, we have had the benefit, lots of it, and by getting +10 to all stats we dont loose anything,
as an example this is like someone investing money in a company years later share dividends have paid back that investment many times over and the company is about to go under and you complain that just getting your money back isnt fair you want a proift, You already had the profit it just didnt announce itself
start a new toon on your main (only temporary) load him into eve mon, set up a network of skill plans to train up to all the skills you have right now but without touching learning skills, see how many years that would take, now look at your main characters age,
you got your profit right there, youve saved time, the one resource thats near priceless
Me? im just sitting here,
|

Sandra Smith
|
Posted - 2010.06.16 09:39:00 -
[174]
Not supported.
This game is about making others cry and learning skills do that.
Ideally add a third tier of them to filter out those players with weak spines before they ruin the game further.
|

Spugg Galdon
|
Posted - 2010.06.16 09:41:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Takashi Halamoto if learning skills had never been in the game it would have taken all us vets another year or more to get to where we currently are, im sure my learning skills havesaved me months, thats the whole reason why we all trained learning skills early, they paid themselves back in spending a month training them by saving us months in the long run, we have had the benefit, lots of it, and by getting +10 to all stats we dont loose anything,
as an example this is like someone investing money in a company years later share dividends have paid back that investment many times over and the company is about to go under and you complain that just getting your money back isnt fair you want a proift, You already had the profit it just didnt announce itself
start a new toon on your main (only temporary) load him into eve mon, set up a network of skill plans to train up to all the skills you have right now but without touching learning skills, see how many years that would take, now look at your main characters age,
you got your profit right there, youve saved time, the one resource thats near priceless
I have to agree with Tak here. I am roughly the same age as most of my corp mates and I have all but the two charisma skills to lvl 5. Which took me ages. All my corp mates in the beginning said that I was a bit stupid to take them all that far. However I have now surpassed most of my corp mates simply because I took the time. This solution that has been presented is almost fair however, it does not account for the accelerated training time I have benefited from in the mean time. How would we calculate that or is it simply STFUAGOWT?
This game is all about investing time. That's what makes it so special. When you lose a ship or a clone its not the ISK you're bothered about. Its how long it took you to accumulate that isk and then, build your ship, get all your implants in etc etc.
Losing learning skills (all together) is IMO a bad idea. Perhaps (new) people could get an option in character creation to apply some sp in the basic learning skills area. I have no problem with giving new players more SP on character creation.
|

Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2010.06.16 09:54:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Spugg Galdon
Losing learning skills (all together) is IMO a bad idea. Perhaps (new) people could get an option in character creation to apply some sp in the basic learning skills area. I have no problem with giving new players more SP on character creation.
Maybe give all new chars basic learning skills to L4 and advanced 3 in addition to what they currently get?
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Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.06.16 12:37:00 -
[177]
Not supported.
However i do agree that learning skills can be tedius yes, but you aren't forced to train them in the first place. True however is that most people including me will advise one to do that, i did it myself and i've only played for a few months myself.
But i also have a solution for new people, many complain that new people spend their first weeks just sitting around being bored etc, which can be true if you take on learning skills ASAP.
My solution is that you spend the first 2-3 weeks either training for a mining or combat ship. Say getting racial frigate 5, weapon skill to 5 so that you can use whatever t2 weapons system and tanking skills to reasonable level, this could also go for a miner aswell getting into a retiever and start making some money.
Playing around some in EVEmon gives me that, for the non missile using races it would take about 1 month to get into a fully useable combat frigate with t2 weapons. skills Weapon system of your choice Specalisations to 4 Racial frigate to 5
Estimated SP 1.12 million SP.
As far as caldari and basic skills go for combat(I don't fly caldari so i could be wrong here) it is about the same time. Skills rocket specalisation 4 Missile launcher operations 5 Rockets 5 Caldari frigate 5
Estiamted SP 1.2 Million
Now for a miner, basic choice here would be the retriever. Theese are only the basic skills needed. But for a completely fresh toon to get into a retriever it would only be about 2 weeks. Netting you a SP amount of aproximately 561k.
True going for combat is abit more skill intensive and puts you at a higher Estimated SP. But it would also nullify the argument that you can't do anything because of learning skills.
I chose only to pick up the most common proffesions. The advantage here aswell is that once you complete your learning skills you will be able to get into any t2 frigate of your choice once you train the skills needed for it. But you will also be able to so something while you train the learning skills, granted level 1's aren't that much fun, but you will be able to do them somewhat efficently. The skillplan lacks other needed skills which is true, but those do not really have a huge impact on level 1's in my exerpience.
Anyway theese are just my two cents.
|

BFish
Gallente Bushwhackers Rough Necks
|
Posted - 2010.06.17 07:09:00 -
[178]
I like learning skills. Personally I think they give new players time to become accustomed to the game, and to figure out what path they want to take.
Not supported. -----------------
----------------- |

Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
|
Posted - 2010.06.22 06:27:00 -
[179]
Originally by: BFish I like learning skills. Personally I think they give new players time to become accustomed to the game, and to figure out what path they want to take.
Not supported.
As usual, people who are not supporting didn't even read topic. We dont discuss should they be removed, or do you like them. But when they are removed, would this solution be fine, or not...
Shoot your shot... |

Blade Murderhorn
Amarrian Retribution
|
Posted - 2010.06.22 08:02:00 -
[180]
Signed! sounds like a great idea |
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Weegie Miso
|
Posted - 2010.06.22 09:04:00 -
[181]
Supported. They don't add anything to the game but an extra slog and i know they put off new players. Especially when you get idiots telling them to buy the game and do nothing but sit in a station and train learning skills for the first couple weeks (although to be fair, that's more the idiots' fault than the learning skills, but still...)
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Miyamoto Isoruku
Original Sin.
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Posted - 2010.06.22 09:10:00 -
[182]
seems like a reasonable way to remove a pointless mechanic
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.06.22 10:03:00 -
[183]
To be honest, when I was a new player I had no issue with learning skills what so ever. I did not know anyone playing the game and I didn't compare myself to others. I thought the decision process between training a learning skill to the next level, or something that would benefit me immediately, was pretty interesting. I cherish the first month in the game. I thought it was great to explore the game in my own pace whether it I was ratting in low sec with a Tristan or mining Omber in a Navitas.
I don't think the game gets more fun just because I can fly fancier stuff or make more isk/hour. To me it is all about setting up a goal and pursue that goal. Its the journey there that's fun (sound cliche, I know but its true).
If a new player have friends who are prancing around with Gigatrillions of Isk and an attitude of ôLUL, Im making 2B isk/hour doing this and that in my superduper pwnmobile and this is what you have to do to become as awesome as I amö, of course new players will feel inadequate.
If your approach is that its all about getting the largest Epeen in shortest possible time and you are constantly comparing yourself to those that have played the game for several years, then I can see why learning skills is a problem. /rant
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Anders Oxenstierna
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Posted - 2010.06.22 12:12:00 -
[184]
YES!
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Grath Moncalimar
Minmatar Penumbra Military Industrial Complex Origin of Symmetry
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Posted - 2010.06.22 14:14:00 -
[185]
Then remove the attributes that the learning skills enhance too! Not supported To boldly go...you know the rest, HA!
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Gewrixlera
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Posted - 2010.06.22 14:42:00 -
[186]
I Seriously disagree with changing the learning skills.
Learning skills are an option, not a requirement. You can train anything, fly anything, and do anything in EVE without them. Unlike, say Spaceship Command.
Learning Skills ARE AN OPTION. They are not required.
Yes, they provide an advantage to players who choose to train them. So what? Using a 10km Warp Scrambler provides an advantage to a player who tries to tackle someone who's fit a Warp Core Stabilizer. None of those things are required to play the game.
Regardless of whether CCP actually wants to get rid of them (and I don't think they should do anything, it's not broken), this proposal IS NOT worthy of anyone's time in the CSM or at CCP.
Removing/changing the learning skills is yet another example of modern society being so self-centered they feel that they should be entitled to something because someone else has it.
However, if CCP actually is going to do something about learning skills, then they should just remove them and the bonuses they provide. Period. Then it can take even longer for everyone to train anything. That will make the game a whole lot more fun, don't you think?
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MNagy
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Posted - 2010.06.22 15:11:00 -
[187]
I do not agree with removing them.
They are not a required skill. All the time I spent 'learning' learning skills... what happens to that. Will I be re-imbursed for the monthly subscription fee? -no
They are not a requirement - dont add more - dont get rid of any.
If you chose not to skill them up - so you learn slower - big deal. If you chose to skill them up - you are not skilling up in something else so maybe one day you can skill up faster.
I Do Not Support this change.
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pbjoker II
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Posted - 2010.06.22 18:14:00 -
[188]
yes support the idea, lets stop talking bout it and do it already
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Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari Original Sin.
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Posted - 2010.06.22 18:23:00 -
[189]
Why is there so much bitterness in this thread? The idea is simply to allow you to reallocate the SP you put into learning elsewhere.
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Gewrixlera
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:01:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku Why is there so much bitterness in this thread? The idea is simply to allow you to reallocate the SP you put into learning elsewhere.
Why should you reallocate the SP? If you trained the skills you got the benefit of having them. Period, end of sentence. If you didn't train them you didn't. When you have already had the benefit of the skill, why do you deserve additional benefits?
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MNagy
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:22:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Gewrixlera
Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku Why is there so much bitterness in this thread? The idea is simply to allow you to reallocate the SP you put into learning elsewhere.
Why should you reallocate the SP? If you trained the skills you got the benefit of having them. Period, end of sentence. If you didn't train them you didn't. When you have already had the benefit of the skill, why do you deserve additional benefits?
Because Gewrixlera, You spent a month learning guns, while i spent a month learning logic. At the end of the month if they just take it away - I have nothing and you have guns.
That is why I say leave them be - dont add more, skill em up if u want or dont. Stop complaining about them taking a long time to skill up. If you dont like it - then dont skill them.
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Kathleen Hallet
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:40:00 -
[192]
Edited by: Kathleen Hallet on 22/06/2010 19:40:54 Learning skills were never a good idea. OMG! You're a Chick?! |

Liz Viscious
The Peace and Love Program
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:54:00 -
[193]
Most definitely supported. I'm well on my way to finishing the Learning grind (to 5/4 at least), and it's been a trying experience to put it lightly. I'd much rather see new players (and accounts) training at full speed (excluding implant variables) from the start than have them work learning (and thus, months of essentially non-progressed idle time which puts off actual gameplay skills).
Really hope this topic gets some attention. It is very much worth changing for the continued growth and retention of the player base.
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Acid Miner
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:54:00 -
[194]
Excellent idea. CCP already has the tech in place to give increased LP gain.
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Namelessness
Amarr Silver Angels Inc
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Posted - 2010.06.24 15:10:00 -
[195]
Not supported!
IF you eliminate one skill that is fundamental, then you open the debate to eliminate other skills. There is nothing wrong with learning skills, what's wrong is that people who lack patience and want to speed up everything, to an unreasonable point, that is dangerous, because it does approach the "instant gratification" vs "hard work/patience" equation.
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Riithi Bashere
Eve University
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Posted - 2010.06.24 15:18:00 -
[196]
Skills for a new player is already annoying every shiny toy you see requires ages to train.
Adding more salt to the injury with these 'learning skills' is just giving extra reasons to quit this game. The only thing it does is create a 4-5m sp time-sink.
10k% faster is too fast, 200 or 400 would do just fine as well.
Signed.
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
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Posted - 2010.06.24 17:13:00 -
[197]
Not supported
The only thing worse than this idea would be if CCP decided to let people buy SP.
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Cyrus Doul
Cosmic Vacum Cleaners
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Posted - 2010.06.24 17:54:00 -
[198]
well CCP is putting in a function that allows you to take your tasty tasty stem cell SP that they are introducing and spending it on whatever come this coming tuesday...
/thread?
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William Mill3r
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Posted - 2010.06.24 18:54:00 -
[199]
I'm strongly against them removing learning skills, as much as it sucks, I'm playing by thoses rules. I'm like 3 months old, I spent almost all my game time learning learning skills because I know I'm going to play this game for a long time, I'm alrdy penalizing myself (willingly, and I don't complain about it) for doing that, I would get penalized even more. Why should I pay twice the price for taking that decision, because some of you guys decided not to learn thoses skills and regret it ? And the other kind of people are thoses that are so old that just don't care...
Even if they were to redistribute the points it's still stupid and I'm still behind, because while you got thoses skills alrdy and used them to make tons of ISK or survive in pvp, or whatever you did with them, I didn't have them... so returning me thoses points is totally pointless to me... TOTALLY. How are you gonna give me back thoses 2 months were I didn't have thoses improved skills to make **** loads of isk ? You won't.
I decided to learn learning skills because they give me an edge at some point, I do not want it to be taken away, and be penalized... so not only people had an edge on me during all that time, but they get back at equal footing. So in short, I put an insane effort to learn almost only learning skills for 3 months for nothing.
So I hope this new system is just for downtime points gift, and not to remove learnings. Or if they do remove learning, even if they give me back thoses SP, that will NOT be enought, to pay my loss back. My character spent hours and hours injecting learning datas in his brain, he is supposed to be more advanced to learn things, you can't tell me that never took place.
Again I understand how painful the learning system skill is, for new players, I do. But if you do remove them, you penalize some of us. Especially me, who basicly never beneificed a single day of having thoses level 5... Somebody who got thoses level 5 for years years, made ****loads of SP...
I'm totally against this, I hope this is just a rumor... I'm all about not having learning skills, but only if this is done without penazling anyone, and this can't be done.
I certainly did not spend 2month and half in learning skill to have an edge in my learning curve for 2 days, that doesn't make any sense...Who would do that ? you would have to be out of your mind...
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Valea Silpha
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.06.24 18:54:00 -
[200]
Totally supported.
The learning skills are just time sink which only benefit older players. Expensive implants give vets a decent enough SP/hour advantage over newbies.
I started an alt last year with power of 2, and re-experiencing the learning grind was the most hideous thing I've ever done. Not even worth undocking for over a month. Tangfastic.
Also, I don't see why anyone would argue against getting a) a stat boost (since so few people have all 5's, this system means everyone will be training faster than before) and b) being able to sink over a million (t1 to 5, t2 to 4) SP wherever we want.
Who ever was *****ing about CCP not giving game time back needs to STFU. You get the SP back with interest tbh. The benefit of having 'free sp' would be great for everyone, and in fact even more so for vets, because we know which skills are the most subjectively valuable to us.
No-one looses with this system. Everyone retains the same total SP and the suggested loss of game time is a total non-issue. Yes, if you have all learning to 5, then you might have lost some gametime, but only if you are still waiting to break even on them, in which case you will be no more behind than you are now. If you only took t2 skills to 4 more than maybe 90 days ago you are gaining time.
TL:DR...
Pros : Everyone trains everything faster. Good for newbs, good for vets. Everyone who had trained any learning keeps the SP and can put it anywhere. Is there ANYONE who wouldn't like an extra mil SP in SOMETHING ?
Cons : The all 5 chars gain least, but only if they haven't broken even on SP yet, and even then it only matters if you are very narrow minded. The benefits they got by being the first people to build or invent or fly a new whatever won't have vanished.
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William Mill3r
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Posted - 2010.06.24 19:23:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Valea Silpha
Cons : The all 5 chars gain least, but only if they haven't broken even on SP yet, and even then it only matters if you are very narrow minded. The benefits they got by being the first people to build or invent or fly a new whatever won't have vanished.
Originally by: Valea Silpha
No-one looses with this system. Everyone retains the same total SP and the suggested loss of game time is a total non-issue. Yes, if you have all learning to 5, then you might have lost some gametime, but only if you are still waiting to break even on them, in which case you will be no more behind than you are now. If you only took t2 skills to 4 more than maybe 90 days ago you are gaining time.
It's not all about how many SP you have... obviously no one loosing in skill points...but my character is totally screwed. I spent 2 months and half, with not a single usefull skill, because I learned a lot of level 5. This whole Skill thing, is all about planning, why do you think remap is 12months ? because it is a tight and long planning process... a slight changement in how things works change everything. How do you expect me to break even ? I'm 3 month old. I'm years away to break even... So no I don't qualify to thoses "no one".
I remain the same SP yes but as of today.... my game plan is based over years, knowing I'll be slightly ahead 95% of the people in SP, grinding and grinding, until finally I break even, AND get ahead. That's thoses points that I'm loosing. And that's how I mentally hold on 3months having **** skills...
You are obviously quite far from a correct reasoning there...
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.06.24 19:24:00 -
[202]
Quote: What needs to be changed is people's perception of their neccessity, but that would require changing the basic human nature of min/maxing in games where possible.
^this.
AND.. I love that message that EVE will wrench your heart if you're a Min/maxer .
Eve is fraught with conflict and the internal conflict is part of it.
Newbies need to quickly get over the warped concept that this game is about leveling up or that bigger ships are better.
Its not about how you stack up to others but what you can contribute, and unlike most mmo's where a new player is worthless ...not even worth 1/10th a person, here if employed correctly you're worth well over 50% of a max skilled person quickly (scout...tackle, prober, basic electronic warfare in a blackbird, ) You can be an important help to a corp at war in a t1-frigate that you can fly ok in about a week. True, its harder to get involved in 0.0 with low sp but there is lots else to the game.
I'd feel a bit bad for the noobs but the accelerated first 1.6 million get you up quickly..as do the way skills are construed with the first 80 percent taking 20% of the learning time.
If they wanted to further ease the burden for new players they could allow the training of the second tier learning skills with the first at lvl 3 not 4.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2010.06.24 19:29:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Katarlia Simov on 24/06/2010 19:37:26 Edited by: Katarlia Simov on 24/06/2010 19:32:32
Originally by: William Mill3r Whine
It was your choice to train only learning. What most people do is train the skills they need as they appear, and fill in with learning in the mean time.
Your first day in a new game and you decided to sit in station and do nothing for a month :S ?
That's your problem buddy.
Most everyone gets their learning skills slowly, not maxing them until its worth doing so. You can get 8 points from learning a week with the 100% training speed.
Imagine you are playing another popular MMO, involving bringing doom to elves and goblins. And you decide to go and pick herbs for two months. Would you be complaining at the end that you didn't have any non-herb skills ?
If you want balanced skills, then you have to train them in a balanced manner. If you have this massive skill plan, why didn't you just hit up evemon, toss in the skills you want and ask it to tell you which learning skills were worth training (ie would pay in the duration of the plan)
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xXApophisXx
Interplanetary Trade Commission
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Posted - 2010.06.24 19:36:00 -
[204]
Edited by: xXApophisXx on 24/06/2010 19:37:22 Edited by: xXApophisXx on 24/06/2010 19:36:54 EVE isn't really about Skill Points... Its about the ship you fly... Have a good ship and fitting before you leave the dock and you'll be fine... Sure you have to learn the skills in some or many cases but what you bring to the table at the time of a fight is what matters!
Noobs (Forgive the word), are still going to be ok... This change isn't a big deal! I still believe there can be more to offer for Noobs but CCP already provided you with a lot more than I ever had when I first started back in 2006! I'm still learning the game myself (I don't beleve there is a person who 100% knows EVE) and well... Baby steps... take the game a bit at a time before you go out to fight. Besides i can't blame anyone who wants to make this change... Its getting people high level mining faster and high level fighting faster etc!
Vets, your more than ok here... Gives you more people to shoot (chuckles)
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William Mill3r
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Posted - 2010.06.24 19:40:00 -
[205]
Edited by: William Mill3r on 24/06/2010 19:48:35 Edited by: William Mill3r on 24/06/2010 19:42:35 Katarlia Simov:
Who is whinning ? "learning skills are too hard, they sucks, they are useless plz remove them, /whine /whine"... who is whining there ?
It's ppl who request that learning skills are removed for years and years that are the whinners...
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Imagine you are playing another popular MMO, involving bringing doom to elves and goblins. And you decide to go and pick herbs for two months. Would you be complaining at the end that you didn't have any non-herb skills ?
your comparison doesn't even make any sense, plz get some sense in what you are saying... go back to wow... you are not on the right forum...
>>Anyway I don't care to what they are gonna do, they have probably taken their decision if it's even true. Just don't insult me, by telling nobody will be penalized, that's a lie, and is a totally poor and wrong reasoning. Now they do what they have to do, and I know what will be the consequences to my character and many others, if you think I spent 3months doing that without a tiny little bit of inner will, and that I'm gonna start crying because you flame me, you are surely mistaken. I'm out of here.
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Fitz VonHeise
Eye Bee Em Stellar Defense Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.24 19:50:00 -
[206]
Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 24/06/2010 19:52:02
I've spent over 2 billion isk on Improved Learning implants (+5's) for many alts.
How will CCP deal with people who now have Learning implants that will soon train nothing?
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2010.06.24 19:52:00 -
[207]
Originally by: William Mill3r Edited by: William Mill3r on 24/06/2010 19:42:35 Katarlia Simov:
Who is whinning ? "learning skills are too hard, they sucks, they are useless plz remove them, /whine /whine"... who is whining there ?
It's ppl who request that learning skills are removed for years and years that are the whinners...
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Imagine you are playing another popular MMO, involving bringing doom to elves and goblins. And you decide to go and pick herbs for two months. Would you be complaining at the end that you didn't have any non-herb skills ?
your comparison doesn't even make any sense, plz get some sense in what you are saying... go back to wow... you are not on the right forum...
CCP say they want to remove learning skills... Did you even read the OP ?
You sir, are the one whining.
Basically you are saying that you didn't get much mileage out of your first couple of months because you maxed learning.
But you didn't HAVE to train it, and certainly you didn't need to put it to 5.
The comparison is to illustrate that maxing one skill group ALWAYS comes at the expense of another. Yes, they are useful in their own ways, but they won't let you actually go kill stuff (ie playing the main content of the game).
Also, I've been in eve since just before exodus, never played WoW, although I did spend some time playing TabRas and CoV. Just FYI really...
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XFluke
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Posted - 2010.06.24 19:55:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 24/06/2010 19:52:02
I've spent over 2 billion isk on Improved Learning implants (+5's) for many alts.
How will CCP deal with people who now have Learning implants that will soon train nothing?
The implants are attribute enchancers.. So they improve your sttributes and not the learning skills.
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CG Oglethorpe
Universal Army Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.24 19:57:00 -
[209]
I would support any measure to remove learning skills, they are nothing more than a barrier to new players joining.
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Viral Effect
Caldari BRAINDEAD Corp
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Posted - 2010.06.24 21:04:00 -
[210]
Not Supported.
There is no problem to require a solution. Learning skills have brought many people into the game and I have never once seen anyone one put off by them. Quite to the contrary. I wonÆt support any dumbing down of eve online.
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Cyrus Doul
Cosmic Vacum Cleaners
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Posted - 2010.06.24 21:36:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 24/06/2010 19:52:02
I've spent over 2 billion isk on Improved Learning implants (+5's) for many alts.
How will CCP deal with people who now have Learning implants that will soon train nothing?
fitz please tell me that was a troll.
and for you people that are saying not supported. Once again let me reiterate. THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN! CCP said it is going to once they can figure out how to do it properly. its not a we want something to happen thread. its a we know you are doing it and this is how we want you to do it thread. you saying not supported and then *****ing about how it does x or y, ccp doesnt care that it does those things. and tbh they need to be taken out. my main started with mining five and industry five and cald frigate three when i made him a miner 2.5 years back. my alt started with 1's everywhere and a whole 5k sp or whatever. was worthless pile of crap for first two months or whatever until he got to the rank one level five rank 3 level four like i bet 70 percent or more of the game has them trained to. ccp doesnt want people going this is **** and quitting after a month of not being able to do ****. and if you are going to call stuff dumbing down the game taking out learning skills isnt where i would start. start at something like the time it took to use bombs a couple of patches ago vs now. (10 day or so difference.)
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Turdilious
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Posted - 2010.06.24 22:00:00 -
[212]
IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. CCP were considering it but now consider it impossible due to the fact most people want to keep them.
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Vyusoath Orillian
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Posted - 2010.06.24 22:27:00 -
[213]
i support this purely because learning skills are pointless and act as a time sink.
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Smurphy1
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.06.24 23:32:00 -
[214]
I think that learning skills should be removed as well but with a few differences from the OP. Instead of just a permanent +10 and 10% to all attributes it should be a +8/+9 that is redistributable through remaps.
How it would work is all players would be given a boost to there attributes and the next time they remap their attributes those new point would be redistributable. This would mean that the max attribute allowed when remapping would have to be raised so that final attribute levels are the same as now.
Currently the max any character can get is 33 (15 base + 10 skills + 5 implant + 10%) on a primary attribute and 24.4(9 base + 10 skills + 5 implant + 10%) on a secondary. My idea is to change the max allowed level of one attribute to be 28 (28 + 5 implant = 33) and the max for the rest be 20 (20 + 5 implant = 25).
This would result in the being able to maintain the highest sp gain currently available while also allowing for remapping to target more than one skill group. Even with adding +8 to all attributes and pushing two to the max (28 and 20) there would still be 16 points left over to distribute. This means you could have (assuming all +5 implants) 33 in one attribute, 25 in two others and the last two have 6 and 5.
Also to all the people who say that nobody is forced to train learning skills and all those arguments: IT DOESN'T MATTER! The simple fact is that a large enough percentage of newer players are not staying with Eve because of things like learning skills.
They are also unnecessary. Skills are a secondary effect for the game, they add to a players ability to play the game to their liking by increasing their ability to make things explode/build things/mine things etc. Learning skills are a tertiary effect, they increase a players ability to increase their ability to play the game to their liking. They are not necessary to play the game so why have them? |

Cypreion
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Posted - 2010.06.24 23:49:00 -
[215]
Do not support.
Training them is not that big of a deal and I for one did not wait to have them trained to have fun. |

Cypress Solari
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Posted - 2010.06.24 23:51:00 -
[216]
DO NOT SUPPORT!!
I LOVE THE LEARNING SKILLS.
ALWAYS REMEMBER: CAPS LOCK IS THE CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL. |

ViolenTUK
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.25 00:54:00 -
[217]
No not supported.
I canÆt find the source but the last time CCP said they were interested in removing learning skills it was a number of years ago. Sometime after another CCP representative said it was unlikely they would ever do so. Typically it is people who have a reason to complain who will do so on these forums and as far as I can tell most players I know are happy with learning skills. I have found that new players are actually encouraged by them.
If learning skills were removed I would say that the remaining emphasise on skill points would shift towards implants that are currently quite costly. This could well have the effect of making players less liable to move to 0.0 or low sec or engage in pvp since the only real benefit they have left from the implants could be lost and need to be replaced.
Looking at threads like this one I can see that there is real opposition to a change in learning skills. In my opinion that while not unanimous, players on the whole are happy with learning skills. I have had many players over the years thank me for my time in teaching why they are so important and I have never had one person since late 2006 suggest they were a bad idea. This makes me feel we are seeing the unhappy few complaining.
I really do hope that learning skills stay.
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Frank d'Fairy
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Posted - 2010.06.25 01:23:00 -
[218]
Oh look the conservatives in the "it's fine," camp are out again.
For god's sake how can you not support this with a strait face? It's a chore and there's no reason for it. Stop acting like training learning skills is somehow a thoughtful and strateigic thing to do. It's blatantly obvious training up learnin skills is beneficial in the long run, there's no question about it. The pay-off might only be realised after a year or more, but it's there, so anyone with half a clue will be training them as quickly as possible.
I've got learning 5/5 on three characters total and i'm apalled this is still an issue. |

Turdilious
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Posted - 2010.06.25 01:57:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Frank d'Fairy Oh look the conservatives in the "it's fine," camp are out again.
For god's sake how can you not support this with a strait face? It's a chore and there's no reason for it. Stop acting like training learning skills is somehow a thoughtful and strateigic thing to do. It's blatantly obvious training up learnin skills is beneficial in the long run, there's no question about it. The pay-off might only be realised after a year or more, but it's there, so anyone with half a clue will be training them as quickly as possible.
I've got learning 5/5 on three characters total and i'm apalled this is still an issue.
It isn't a chore and it isn't an issue. I'm apalled that anyone would think so. |

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.06.25 02:36:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 25/06/2010 05:17:48
Originally by: Frank d'Fairy Oh look the conservatives in the "it's fine," camp are out again.
For god's sake how can you not support this with a strait face? It's a chore and there's no reason for it. Stop acting like training learning skills is somehow a thoughtful and strateigic thing to do. It's blatantly obvious training up learnin skills is beneficial in the long run, there's no question about it. The pay-off might only be realised after a year or more, but it's there, so anyone with half a clue will be training them as quickly as possible.
I've got learning 5/5 on three characters total and i'm apalled this is still an issue.
Learning skills is not more of a chore than any other skill. Learning skills is just a part of a skill-system with one basic trait and that is that getting SP takes time. The whole skill-training-system can be seen as a chore.
I mean, why does skills have training time multipliers? Isn't it a chore to train skills that take months with training time multipliers of five or more? The multipliers just have one purpose and that is to make sure that acquiring that skill take lots of time.
Maybe CCP should take away the multipliers or at least make it so that no skill have higher multiplier than 3. Those that already have those skills will not lose anything. How can you defend the chore of having to train skills with multipliers of 4-12?
Having learning skills can essentially be seen as the rest of the skills have a smaller time-multiplier. Learning skills put you in the awkward position of having to choose between a short-time benefit and benefits that are far ahead in the future. So there is the possibility to plan and also to make poor choices. Personally I took my time to grind through the learning skills, training a lot other skills in between. Sure, I could have a few more SP now if I took a faster rout. Big deal?
If you are new in the game and want learning skills just like anybody else, then you have to go through the same steps as anybody else. |
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Swearte Widfarend
Gallente Royal Enterprise Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2010.06.25 03:22:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Frank d'Fairy Oh look the conservatives in the "it's fine," camp are out again.
For god's sake how can you not support this with a strait face? It's a chore and there's no reason for it. Stop acting like training learning skills is somehow a thoughtful and strateigic thing to do. It's blatantly obvious training up learnin skills is beneficial in the long run, there's no question about it. The pay-off might only be realised after a year or more, but it's there, so anyone with half a clue will be training them as quickly as possible.
I've got learning 5/5 on three characters total and i'm apalled this is still an issue.
Oh look it's the entitlement crew out for a sTROLL.
Harden up. Learning skills are an option. They provide depth to the game. Go play your FPS on the XBox 360 if you want a shallow game. Some of us use our brains and hands when playing EVE, I realize that may be difficult for you, I know - SUE SOMEONE! Sure, entitlement at it's best. I don't have to work for stuff, I should just be given it because I'm special...
HTFU or get off the ride.... |

Black Dranzer
|
Posted - 2010.06.25 09:02:00 -
[222]
So CCP are implementing a system for distributing pools of skill points.
Did somebody say SPECULATION?
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Batolemaeus
Vauryndar Dalharil
|
Posted - 2010.06.25 09:11:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Swearte Widfarend They provide depth to the game.
That's your definition of depth? 
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Vehlin
Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.06.25 12:54:00 -
[224]
The argument that by training learnings only for the first 2 months means you will lose out on a reimbursement is flawed.
For each of those learning skills you have trained you have increased your SP/Hour for the duration of those 2 months. These increases allowed you get the next tier of learning faster which in turn allowed you more SP/hour. The net effect of this is that over the 2 months where the hypothetical other character didn't train learnings and just trained for things that made isk is that you will have something that ISK can't buy, more SPs.
If learning skills are removed you will still have received the benefit of training them, through the bonus they gave you while you were training them. When your SP are reimbursed you will end up in a better position that the other guy. So how are you losing out?
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Resha Tsvort
|
Posted - 2010.06.25 14:23:00 -
[225]
Learning skills are bad game design, this should have been done a long time ago. Supported
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
|
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:05:00 -
[226]
Not Supported.
The reasons are many and varied, most of them eloquently outlined here.
The only way I would even slightly consider supporting the removing of learning skills is if after it was all said and done reimbursement-wise everyone had their attributes set back to their original low values... with no way to raise them.
Learning skills wouldn't look so bad then, would they?  ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |

Akov Stohs
Windowlickers Inc
|
Posted - 2010.06.25 19:25:00 -
[227]
Why not let every one roll a Jedi right out of the gate? Why make them do any training at all? Its SO unfair that every one can't fly a titan their first week in.
No wait...thats stupid, it makes games fail. Also Veterans *****ing about having to train stuff on their alts is what I see here. New players don't know anything about learning skills until some vet comes along and berates them for not having them all to level 5. People figure out the best balance on their own. Few ship, few weapons, few learning, NO ONE except vets sit and train learning skills for two weeks. Stop trying to dumb down the game.
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Neztruce
Minmatar Calimae Logistics Foundation
|
Posted - 2010.06.25 19:32:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Not Supported.
The reasons are many and varied, most of them eloquently outlined here.
The only way I would even slightly consider supporting the removing of learning skills is if after it was all said and done reimbursement-wise everyone had their attributes set back to their original low values... with no way to raise them.
Learning skills wouldn't look so bad then, would they? 
Originally by: Akov Stohs Why not let every one roll a Jedi right out of the gate? Why make them do any training at all? Its SO unfair that every one can't fly a titan their first week in.
No wait...thats stupid, it makes games fail. Also Veterans *****ing about having to train stuff on their alts is what I see here. New players don't know anything about learning skills until some vet comes along and berates them for not having them all to level 5. People figure out the best balance on their own. Few ship, few weapons, few learning, NO ONE except vets sit and train learning skills for two weeks. Stop trying to dumb down the game.
Not supported, and this is why.
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Dzajic
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2010.06.25 21:25:00 -
[229]
To all comparing potential removal of learning skills to SWG:NGE, go burn in hell.
When I started playing I spend more than half of time of first two months learning damn learning skills. And it was annoying as hell. If I learn "someship level 4" skill I get to fly that ship better. You spend tons of time learning learning skills without any immediate or direct benefits. You only know that it will pay out over a long period of time. There is harsh and cruel, and there are needless timesinks.
As for learning to level 5. Holy smoke. I understand that people got basics to 5 when it was prequel to advanced learning, but now? A two year plan in EVEMon will give me a 5 day speedup with 3 "basic" learning skills to 5. I wonder how long skillplan would I have to make for all to 5 to give a 10 minute bonus?
|

Fournone
|
Posted - 2010.06.25 23:30:00 -
[230]
To train or not train learning skills is just another part of eve. Its like deciding to train for a hulk or for better mining lasers, to training faster weapon cycle or longer range. Its a tactical decision that all players face. If you don't like them, don't train them. I'm happy to pronounce that I got almost all of them to 5 and cruising along most skills.
|
|

Deldrac
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.06.26 06:21:00 -
[231]
**** the haters do this now.
tia.
Also, that exciting new 'hey we can give out SP' system that CCP are using for downtime compensation is perfect for this. |

Dzajic
Gallente Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2010.06.26 10:41:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Fournone To train or not train learning skills is just another part of eve. Its like deciding to train for a hulk or for better mining lasers, to training faster weapon cycle or longer range. Its a tactical decision that all players face. If you don't like them, don't train them. I'm happy to pronounce that I got almost all of them to 5 and cruising along most skills.
Completely ridiculous. There is no way around it, you have to train learning skills, period. That is the problem, there is no choice. They might as well be mandatory, and the more you delay learning them the more time you lose.
|

Reddx Panther
|
Posted - 2010.06.26 11:51:00 -
[233]
I'm pro learning skills.
For me learning skills are part of the whole skill training decision game, and I like them because it makes you choose between short term and long term benefits, which is a difficult decision to take any day.
I personally like EVE exactly because of all the tough decisions, complexity and pitfalls that the game offers, and I am against making EVE all cuddly and smooth.
For those that complain that learning skills are a time sink might consider the idea that a MMO is in general a well-designed time sink trying to bait you to log in every through some kind of sketchy reward scheme.
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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.06.26 13:37:00 -
[234]
Strongly opposed.
|

SupaKudoRio
|
Posted - 2010.06.26 14:21:00 -
[235]
I see little to no downside to this solution.
Honestly, I don't see why it hasn't been done already. Learning skills serve no good purpose anymore, and haven't for quite some time. _
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Cyrus Doul
Cosmic Vacum Cleaners
|
Posted - 2010.06.26 16:17:00 -
[236]
just for fyi on you people saying that ohhh train all learning skills to five rabblerabblerabble.
Here are a few payouts from my own head which is currently 19 26 14 14 15 with no implants:
iron will v when min gal and cald titan to five amarr bs 5 390d saves 12 hours 9 min
clarity v when all four titans are to 5, 472 days 1 17 20 saved
empathy v 146d save 22 hours
presence v 372 days all of trade half of social save four hours
just to have those four skills to pay off i need to spend 844 days. The first two were clicked only selecting spaceship command. and the second two were clicked selecting trade and social skills, which, save a couple are all charisma primary. I think ill take the extra one point that ccp will bump from my current four to the proposed five now thank you.
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Frank d'Fairy
|
Posted - 2010.06.26 20:36:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Fournone To train or not train learning skills is just another part of eve. Its like deciding to train for a hulk or for better mining lasers, to training faster weapon cycle or longer range. Its a tactical decision that all players face. If you don't like them, don't train them. I'm happy to pronounce that I got almost all of them to 5 and cruising along most skills.
Except if you train learning skills instead of mining barge V and exhumers II you don't get to fly, trade, shoot, steal, mine, or produce anything new. You merely accellerate the process at which you eventually do those things. In an era of EVE when most new players are obsessed with playing catch-up (for good reason, years of skilling go into core alone if you want to pilot more than a very narrow selection of ships), you cannot ignore the "must train" factor in any long-term investment skills. If they aren't training (and thus ******ing their entry into more advanced activities than suicide tackle, cheapfit miner, or station trader) learning skills as far as they can from the get-go, they're loosing more time.
No, you don't need 5/5 to start skilling anything, and no, you don't see a full return on investment for years, but for anyone who hasn't pre-determined that they'll quit the game before a few years are out, it's a non-decision. That's what makes learning skills bad.
|

Xorv
|
Posted - 2010.06.27 00:02:00 -
[238]
Strongly support removing Learning skills.
They add nothing positive to the game and add an unnecessary hurdle for new players to get into the game.
I'll also say many of the people that want to keep features like Learning skills represent a sickness in MMOs... clinging to the idea that doing mindless unfun monotonous pointless tasks should be rewarded. I'm sure many developers love you, since it's not hard to add content that appeals to you, whether it be pressing a button one million times, killing a thousand sheep, or training pointless skills for a few months you'll love it... well, just so long as it promises to give you an edge over the other guy who isn't quite as lame as you to be wasting their time with such horrible gameplay. Personally I hope you guys stop playing MMOs and take up counting sand or something as a new hobby. That way developers will be compelled to actually make good games. |

Voddick
|
Posted - 2010.06.27 04:10:00 -
[239]
Not Supported. They aren't broken as long as you use them when needed and not front load 5/5. If you JUST train learning then yeah, that sucks....don't do that.
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Wraithik
|
Posted - 2010.06.27 04:12:00 -
[240]
Not supported. Don't remove detail / choice / and planning elements from the game!!!! This is EVE. It's supposed to have choices.
|
|

XIII'th
|
Posted - 2010.06.27 07:55:00 -
[241]
OP, You have my bow, CCP, if you do it, You have my axe. And noone can have my staff.
Full support.
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Harralt
|
Posted - 2010.06.28 02:18:00 -
[242]
Edited by: Harralt on 28/06/2010 02:22:08 I disagree.
The learning skills add a learning curve to the game which is direclty representative of eve itself. You dont just jump into a hulk, go to 0.0 and profit like in other MMO's where if you learn where the good ****e is you can just go there and take it. No.
This is eve, first you must learn how to get that ore, get the cruiser, then level up to get the mining barge, finally the hulk after about a month of hard work. Boy does it feel good now that you have it!?
Same goes with PVP. Those T2 guns are a pain-in-the-royal-arse to get, but they are worth it! Especially in those ships that require them to be really effective.
I have nothing to lose from this and i STILL do not support it because it made me think about what i wanted to do and train those skills in the order in which best made my char. I absolutely do not want an eve universe where character planning is any less valuable than planning for mass market takeovers or POS assaults.
To all Posters that think that this is "pointless time sinking" then you are wrong. Why not just remove the skill system all together then? After all, its just TIME SINKING! Why not just BUY skills? After all, why would you want to WAIT to get something important in the game?
To all of you, i say join WoW where you can go on end-game raids at the end of a week of game play.
Tl:DL? Long story short, This is EVE. Thought = proficiency. Planning = Profit. Work = reward. Risk = Reward.
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Snyder Aringdon
Gray Rogue Squadron
|
Posted - 2010.06.28 02:42:00 -
[243]
Supported.
Stripping learning skills does not strip the ability to make your character unique. 5-year vets have had significant benefits from learning skills; newer players will fail to see the math pay out for them over the next couple years as they get omgwtfpwnsauced by said vets.
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S'qarpium D'igil
|
Posted - 2010.06.28 23:25:00 -
[244]
Supported
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sophiaeu
|
Posted - 2010.06.28 23:48:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Dzajic
Originally by: Fournone To train or not train learning skills is just another part of eve. Its like deciding to train for a hulk or for better mining lasers, to training faster weapon cycle or longer range. Its a tactical decision that all players face. If you don't like them, don't train them. I'm happy to pronounce that I got almost all of them to 5 and cruising along most skills.
Completely ridiculous. There is no way around it, you have to train learning skills, period. That is the problem, there is no choice. They might as well be mandatory, and the more you delay learning them the more time you lose.
How so?, Im a noob (2 accounts less than 12 months old) and dont want these removed, I have two accounts one character has all learnin done pimped out call it what you want, the other barley has 5/4 combo of the basic learnin done,their sp time is basically the same after I remapped the basic learnin one and I wont get the benefitsof a fullly learned char for a few years, really people need to stop moaning about the learnin skills they are not that bad and evil,if you want to dumb out EVE I guess this is the step ccp will take but I hope not.
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sophiaeu
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 01:52:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Cyrus Doul
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 24/06/2010 19:52:02
I've spent over 2 billion isk on Improved Learning implants (+5's) for many alts.
How will CCP deal with people who now have Learning implants that will soon train nothing?
fitz please tell me that was a troll.
and for you people that are saying not supported. Once again let me reiterate. THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN! CCP said it is going to once they can figure out how to do it properly. .)
Please point out and link where ccp say this I'm most Intrested.....this should be good.
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Sard Caid
Gunpoint Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 04:19:00 -
[247]
+1
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Mashie Saldana
Red Federation
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 04:51:00 -
[248]
Originally by: sophiaeu
Originally by: Cyrus Doul Once again let me reiterate. THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN! CCP said it is going to once they can figure out how to do it properly. .)
Please point out and link where ccp say this I'm most Intrested.....this should be good.
Fast forward to the 38 minute mark of this video.
Personally I would prefer to see +12 in all attribute points and skip the 10% bonus. The end result will be almost the same amount of SP/year but we don't have to mess about with decimal points for the attributes removing even more confusion for new players reading their character sheets.
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TriIIian
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 08:06:00 -
[249]
Edited by: TriIIian on 29/06/2010 08:13:40
Learning skills do nothing for the great game that is Eve. I'm sure they were great when they were brought in, giving everyone a chance to train quicker. The only good thing about them is that chance to train quicker. There is no other reason for them.
eve wouldnt lose anything from removing learning skills, but it might get more people to play.
People say theres not enough people in low or nul sec. removing learning skills might be a way to get more people to play Eve. more people playing Eve means more people in low and nul sec. More people to shoot at.
But the people that do have them trained (especilly 5/5) should be reimbursed those skill points. As OP said, we also need the +11 attributes otherwise training will be to slow.
+1 Nice idea OP
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 08:24:00 -
[250]
I've been staring at this thread for some time... weighing out the pros and cons of it.
Honestly, I hate Learning skills. I remember juggling between them and skills I actually NEEDED when I started the game. Now, a year later, I look back at them and wonder... why?
I support the removal of learning skills and the proposed means to compensate for their loss. _______________________
"Just because I look like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
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Liandra Xi
Volatile Nature Systematic-Chaos
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 08:41:00 -
[251]
supported.
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Jollygood69
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 11:20:00 -
[252]
Supported.
Remove them. It takes a long time anyway to train many of the skills.
Option could be to remove the learning skills but keep the possibility to have implants.
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Marked Ugler
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 12:30:00 -
[253]
they are like cancer- it hurts to remove them, but you've gotta do it for the grater good. You've got to remove the cancer to save then entire body.
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Kangtar
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 12:35:00 -
[254]
Edited by: Kangtar on 29/06/2010 12:36:01
Originally by: sophiaeu Please point out and link where ccp say this I'm most Intrested.....this should be good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgUwEztj28
Starts about 38 minutes in, after you've watched it you can go bask in your own stupidity. I'd find more but you're not worth the effort.
|

Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 13:34:00 -
[255]
Edited by: Rellik B00n on 29/06/2010 13:33:54 hi,
supported: the intelligent choice is to remove them, OPs solution is simple but effective.
when is a choice not a choice? When its EvE online learning skills. The choice argument holds no water. Resistance to this change is very similar to Sepp Blatter's stance on goaline technology: Age resists change. Sepp thinks this new-fangled technology thing is dangerous for the sport - the rest of the world disagree. Ironically change has been forced upon him.
If an elderly gent like Sepp can roll with the necessary changes then I think that those not supporting this can too. And For the same reason: it is a completely necessary change for the good of the game. + LDSkill+hireLDS |

colt steele
Destructive Influence IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 14:16:00 -
[256]
supported The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent. |

Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 14:16:00 -
[257]
For those that learned the Learning skills, CCP should allow those players to redistribute the skill points in other fields and get compensated for the skill book cost. Also, these pilots should retain a subtle speed bonus based upon how advanced they were with the whole tree. Thus those that had it maxed out should have this bonus for about two years, slowly weakening over time.
And then it is over.
No, there should NOT be a free-for-all attribute bonus for everyone. People constantly demand the removal of this set of skills. So CCP should remove them and call it a day. Let everyone train at the rate of those that never trained the Learning skills. People want their cake and eat it too - screw it. Let players train with attributes they set-up through the neural remapping and implants they can afford.
Yep, this will harm me too, but too many whiners demanding the removal AND the bonus they entailed all on one silver plate.
Let's really make this a cold, harsh game again.
|

Xordel
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 14:19:00 -
[258]
All the counter arguments say the same thing removes depth and planning of the game.
removes depth and planning in what way? would it make the game more shallow if we remove them how so? the hundreds of skill even without the learning skills already makes the game so deep that even 4yr vets cant obtain all this skills look at this dude here http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1071349 took him 6yrs rofl to train everything in my opinion that's enough depth and planning for game.
Those 2 factors would still exist im sure its already hard enough to plan and add depth in the game with the 300+ skills that would remain in the game. The only thing that is stopping CCP from doing this is its a game breaking update. So its best to plan the skill compensation along with implants and other skill affecting factors in the game, making a mistake here would probably break the game. But all in all i don't see anything wrong taking out the learning skills specially when there is compensation.
Soo what other reasons are there to oppose removal of learning skills do you have that mentally of only REAL HARDCORE EVE PLAYERS deserve to play this game. Then you should look for a "Life Transplant" come on people should start treating this as a game it should involve that level of depth and planning which makes this game unique but adding too much unnecessary depth such as learning skills would make it a burden and taxing for some people. Unnecessary i say because in reality nobody would pay 1 month to train a learning 3/5 4/5 toon just to be able train other skills at sub-par level with other players. Im arguing in the middle ground wherein a player "plans" on training decent learning and some industrial or pvp skills. This creates the learning curve they say but in reality its more of train learning skill first and be useless for a month. Just imagine an eager new player wanting to start manufacturing/mining/pewpew gets parked for month and looses interest. That's why I'm making my first meaningful forum post to support this. 
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Alvin Exe
Decapsuleers Unlimited Initiative Mercenaries
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 14:22:00 -
[259]
Simple and efficient way to suppress learning skills. And I wouldnt mind having 2M SP free to invest in something else 
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Lina Theist
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 15:14:00 -
[260]
Just because I don't want my newer friends to leave Eve because they can't be bothered to train learning early on and then ragequit because they don't have their 100% bonus... lol...
Supported
|
|

Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 15:35:00 -
[261]
Edited by: Takseen on 29/06/2010 15:36:38
Originally by: Harralt Edited by: Harralt on 28/06/2010 02:22:08 I disagree.
The learning skills add a learning curve to the game which is direclty representative of eve itself. You dont just jump into a hulk, go to 0.0 and profit like in other MMO's where if you learn where the good ****e is you can just go there and take it. No.
This is eve, first you must learn how to get that ore, get the cruiser, then level up to get the mining barge, finally the hulk after about a month of hard work. Boy does it feel good now that you have it!?
[/b]
Yes, that's how the mining career path works, only you left out the prerequisite learning skills which add nothing to the experience. Let me put it another way. What would be the benefits of adding them to the game if they didn't exist already?
And hard work? Please don't delude yourself. Patience is all it takes.
Edit : Also, there's very little decision-making involved since Evemon does all the calculations for you. Decide what skills you want, it tells you what learning skills to add on to reduce the time taken. Ooh, deep.
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MNagy
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 16:43:00 -
[262]
Thought of something reading other peoples posts ( as i am apposed to getting rid of them ).
Seems like the posts are moreso for newbie players so they play the game rather than 'skill up on learning'.
Why not do something like this: If you got the skills in cue - thats fine keep em they stay as are. Otherwise, They are not available till you have an X amount of Skill points.... 3 mill or something.
Its a bonus for later on to speed up learning.
I would be upset if they got rid of them all together as I have skilled up significantly with them for the payoff down the road.
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Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 17:04:00 -
[263]
As a four year old EVE player I fully support the removal of all learning skills, the reimbursement of all SP, to be distributed as you please, and the addition of +10 attributes +10%. However, I'd still like to see remapping unless CCP are going to show, like in the old character creation screens, how attributes are distributed. If CCP don't allow remapping, or the distribution of attributes, as you wish, I will not support this.
So, while I'm supporting what OP's posted I'd like it to be done right and not the CCP way. After all, who wants to have the bloodlines with totally messed up stats, e.g. 17 Perception, 11 Willpower and 20 Charisma as a PVP bloodline. And before anyone here says CCP won't do that I'd like to point out all the other total ****ups CCP couldn't possibly have got wrong but did regardless.
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Daniel Farore
Eve University Ivy League
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 19:19:00 -
[264]
Fully support this idea.
I hate having to train learning skills again and again. You create an alt, what do you do first? Train learning skills. Even for a simple alt with a few specific skills on the same account you need for a specific purpose. (hauling, exploration, trading) EVEMon will suggest you train at least some learning skills. They take time and keep you from training for the fun stuff in EVE rather than train for training those things. With the new SP feature it would be even easier to refund those SP people put into learning skills.
As for the statement it is a solution looking for a problem: New players get into the game, if they have someone around giving them advice it usually also says: Train learning skills early. New players cannot afford the advance learning skills, they don't enjoy playing while they only have learning skill and thus lacking combat/mining/exploration skills in that time. Means they might quit sooner. They can off course choose not to do so, but most people will regret it later. Because then they no longer have the double training speed which you get below 1.6m SP and those learning skills take even longer to train, thus are even more anoying. But aside from that, yeah Gallente have awesome drones. I just wish they used lasers that don't use cap instead of hybrids. |

Hito Nobu
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 19:28:00 -
[265]
I just made an account and learned learning skills are a wise investment early on. Also used EVEMon and made a plan for about 9 months. Quite a lot of learning skills were recommended. But I don't feel like investing everything I earn into those expensive (4.5mil each! ) skill books. I could buy a nice cruiser for that. For all of them I'd have enough for a Battlecruiser almost. At least I got a couple of attribute implants for free which was nice. But I'm not suggesting I need to have that ISK refunded for those expensive books if this goes through, I'd be happy enough not having to train them so high and use that time on something else.
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Belsazzar
|
Posted - 2010.06.29 20:19:00 -
[266]
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Natalia Kovac
I Also Fly Amarr
|
Posted - 2010.06.30 00:18:00 -
[267]
Supported, learning skills add nothing to the game and are just a timesink that you need to get over for every new character.
Plus, now that the infrastructure is there to give out SP (the free 100K SP they gave everyone for the server move screwup), it should be relatively easy to refund the SP used in training learning skills and allow us to spend it on whatever skill we want.
This would be a great move by CCP, come on do it, and show us that you are not so stubborn as to stand in the face of all reason.
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Nikol Keselova
|
Posted - 2010.06.30 00:19:00 -
[268]
Supported. Desperately needed.
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Viral Effect
Caldari BRAINDEAD Corp
|
Posted - 2010.06.30 07:34:00 -
[269]
No. Not supported.
If learning skills are deemed to be removed why not give everyone them and then give the players that have already learnt them some free SP.
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JitaBum
Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2010.06.30 14:38:00 -
[270]
Absolutely supported, they are a TERRIBLE mechanic. People who support them are only looking out for themselves
|
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David88x77
Galactic Express
|
Posted - 2010.06.30 15:45:00 -
[271]
100% support this.
When friends start the game it is pretty lame to tell them that "oh, you have to train these skills first"
They want to be able to fly around a ship asap with you and whatnot ... not just sit in station for 2 months.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.06.30 15:45:00 -
[272]
Supported. The sooner it will be done the better.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.06.30 15:53:00 -
[273]
Totally support this idea.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Holy Veldspar - where cool kids gather. |

Ray Banner
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Posted - 2010.06.30 16:44:00 -
[274]
No one should have to choose between spending a month doing nothing or having a crippled character.
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Aimy Louis
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Posted - 2010.06.30 16:55:00 -
[275]
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413X4ND3R
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:32:00 -
[276]
Edited by: 413X4ND3R on 30/06/2010 17:32:09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWW1vpz1ybo
See many of the ginger kind here...
Not supported, if CCP is goin to change learnings, I wish they remove learningskills in total, without adding any attributes or boosts, and without restoring skillpoints.
"Wow, 100k SP, thx... *nom nom nom* MOOOAAARRR"
Anyways, thx for comming up with an possible solution, but it's just not the right way to go. In my opinion...
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Rer Eirikr
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:19:00 -
[277]
Edited by: Rer Eirikr on 30/06/2010 21:20:46 This is coming straight from a noob, I'll make that clear. 
I can respect the veteran's and hardcore's desires to keep a mechanic that they themselves had to endure in the game, and yes, it does add another level of tough decision making for the player to consider (or in other words, added depth to becoming stronger).
However, I think everyone can agree that sitting around for a month (or staggering learning skills with necessary components to enjoy EVE, over the course of numerous months) just isn't fun. From a purely business and logical perspective, giving noobs a month-long timesink and saying "do it or suffer not being efficient for the rest of your EVE career" doesn't make sense. Honestly, I quit EVE a few months ago (Note: I'm back and enjoying myself obviously) simply because I was bored being stuck with my noob ships/skills while training up Learning Skills.
I love the rugged individualism and hardcore aspects of EVE, because it does make everything have that added sense of 'worth and value', but that doesn't compensate for being bored for a whole month and (statistically speaking) quitting the game sheerly because of that hurdle.
When you think about it, removing Learning Skills is a Win-Win. Noobs can focus on having fun and learning skills that they deem worthy spending time on, Griefers and PvPers will have new fodder to decimate (and subsequently drink from the Tankard of Tears) and CCP gets more money.
So just refund the SPs everyone has spent on them, and let all of the past players rejoice in knowing that they had a bonus-learning curve longer than anyone else.
But like I said, I'm just a noob. 
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Viral Effect
Caldari BRAINDEAD Corp
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:51:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Rer Eirikr When you think about it, removing Learning Skills is a Win-Win. Noobs can focus on having fun and learning skills that they deem worthy spending time on, Griefers and PvPers will have new fodder to decimate (and subsequently drink from the Tankard of Tears) and CCP gets more money. So just refund the SPs everyone has spent on them, and let all of the past players rejoice in knowing that they had a bonus-learning curve longer than anyone else.
No. Removing learning skills is definitely not a win-win scenario. CCP themselves acknowledged the obvious truth that it will anger allot of people. CCP said that one day they might pick the option that would anger the least amount of people. As far as I am concerned the method that has been suggested that would probably anger the least amount of people would be to give everyone the learning skills and use the new sp allocation system we now have to give a sp re-numeration to the players that have already trained them.
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Rer Eirikr
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:07:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Viral Effect No. Removing learning skills is definitely not a win-win scenario. CCP themselves acknowledged the obvious truth that it will anger allot of people. CCP said that one day they might pick the option that would anger the least amount of people. As far as I am concerned the method that has been suggested that would probably anger the least amount of people would be to give everyone the learning skills and use the new sp allocation system we now have to give a sp re-numeration to the players that have already trained them.
Do you really think veterans of EVE would ragequit the game because suddenly the tedious month's worth of Learning Skills are gone and no-one has to deal with them anymore? Somehow I doubt that, whereas noobs will, and currently are, leaving because of them. And yes, I agree, issue a full refund and give everyone the equivalent of what maxed Learning Skills would give.
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Viral Effect
Caldari BRAINDEAD Corp
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:35:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Rer Eirikr Do you really think veterans of EVE would ragequit the game because suddenly the tedious month's worth of Learning Skills are gone and no-one has to deal with them anymore? Somehow I doubt that,
Is this your justification? You donÆt think they will go as far as quit? Just get up and run around smashing things up but carry on paying their subscription perhaps? Do presume to think that they would see them as tedious?
Originally by: Rer Eirikr whereas noobs will, and currently are, leaving because of them.
I have never talked to anyone in game that has been discouraged by learning skills. In my experience new players stay playing the game because of them.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.07.01 02:03:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Jin Nib on 01/07/2010 02:03:33
Originally by: Viral Effect
I have never talked to anyone in game that has been discouraged by learning skills. In my experience new players stay playing the game because of them.
Are you trolling? It's really hard to tell. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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sirgath
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Posted - 2010.07.01 03:41:00 -
[282]
Supported.
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Xordel
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 05:29:00 -
[283]
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 07:03:00 -
[284]
I do not support this.
I don't necessarily disagree with removing them. I disagree with automatically giving everyone a free +10 attributes. If you think the skills were a mistake to add from the start that's fine, but I don't see anyone who dislikes the faster training. I posted this in another thread on the matter but it seems like people just want to have their cake and eat it too.
(This proposal would actually be a buff for me also since I have only trained 5/4 on both of my accounts.)
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Admiral Chrom
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:49:00 -
[285]
Edited by: Admiral Chrom on 01/07/2010 08:49:51 Edited by: Admiral Chrom on 01/07/2010 08:49:16 /sign Great idea! Totally support this.
REMOVE THE LEARNING SKILLS!
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Makumba Aki
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 09:43:00 -
[286]
the first step in the wrong direction
against it
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Myth Al'kar
Blueprint Haus Empire Vacation Home
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Posted - 2010.07.01 09:46:00 -
[287]
I support removal of learning skills. They are not fun. Plus I can imagine the shiny new skill I'd buy as a reward for training them.
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Aineko Macx
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 10:00:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
This.
Also, the proposal is a massive buff to alts, which I wouldn't support either.
Finally, the "annoyance" with the learning skill helps keeping the impatient and instant gratification crowd away from eve.
I'd find it much more interesting to remove attribute implants and boost all attributes by +5 to compensate. But that wasn't the proposal, so...
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:41:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Finally, the "annoyance" with the learning skill helps keeping the impatient and instant gratification crowd away from eve.
There's just so much wrong with that statement I don't even know where to start.
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Cash Render
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Posted - 2010.07.01 12:07:00 -
[290]
First off, apparantly alot of people have very poor hearing comprehension. Sicne when does "We think introducing them was a mistake, but we DON'T want to simply remove them because that'll make alot of people angry" translate to this ridiculous claim of "CCP has already said tehy are definitely removing them" ? Seriously, those two statements are NOTHING alike.
Secondly, since the learning skills supposedly add NOTHING to the game, than IF CCP does remove them, it should simply be removal. No SP reallocation for those of us that have them, no +10 and +10%... just a flat out removed.
Thirdly, The proposed plan isn't a cover all for everyone's pain from this. Only the vets with 3 or more years of having the Learnign Skills have gotten the payout from learnign them. Those who haven't been playing that time with them will get royally screwed by everyone startign with them now. Afterall, they had to spend the unaccelerated time to train them up to that level.
Personally, I don't care if they stay or not... but if they go it shouldn't be a free for all +attributes because people are lazy. It should be simply "you don't like them? Fine, they're goen along with the do nothing for the game trainign bonus they provided."
-Cash
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Takseen
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Posted - 2010.07.01 12:18:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Cash Render
Personally, I don't care if they stay or not... but if they go it shouldn't be a free for all +attributes because people are lazy.
-Cash
What does laziness have to do with training skills in Eve? You think you're making a big effort by clicking and dragging those boxes into the training queue? There's no work, there's no effort. In the case of learning skills there isn't even any interesting decisions apart from when would be the least annoying time to train them. There is only time.
You are not a special snowflake because you paused your character's ability progression at one point in time to gradually increase it later. *Everyone* has to do this. The only variant is how far they go between 4/3 and 5/5.
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nStedt
1st Furtive Green Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.01 12:22:00 -
[292]
Whatever removes those stupids skills is fine with me.
1st Furtive is recruiting ** 0.0 access ** no mandatory ops ** no corp fees ** 1st Furtive Recruitment |

Aineko Macx
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:25:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Finally, the "annoyance" with the learning skill helps keeping the impatient and instant gratification crowd away from eve.
There's just so much wrong with that statement I don't even know where to start.
You wouldn't know sarcasm when you saw it, right? Anyway, I profit from the impatient crowd, so fine by me ;)
Still not supported tho, previous arguments still stand.
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Rhauh
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:29:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Viral Effect
Originally by: Rer Eirikr When you think about it, removing Learning Skills is a Win-Win. Noobs can focus on having fun and learning skills that they deem worthy spending time on, Griefers and PvPers will have new fodder to decimate (and subsequently drink from the Tankard of Tears) and CCP gets more money. So just refund the SPs everyone has spent on them, and let all of the past players rejoice in knowing that they had a bonus-learning curve longer than anyone else.
No. Removing learning skills is definitely not a win-win scenario. CCP themselves acknowledged the obvious truth that it will anger allot of people. CCP said that one day they might pick the option that would anger the least amount of people. As far as I am concerned the method that has been suggested that would probably anger the least amount of people would be to give everyone the learning skills and use the new sp allocation system we now have to give a sp re-numeration to the players that have already trained them.
The only people who would cry are the ones who will cry no matter what CCP does or does not do.
If you only make decisions based on what everyone will like you would never make decisions. |

Cash Render
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:31:00 -
[295]
Edited by: Cash Render on 01/07/2010 12:34:23
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render
Personally, I don't care if they stay or not... but if they go it shouldn't be a free for all +attributes because people are lazy.
-Cash
What does laziness have to do with training skills in Eve? You think you're making a big effort by clicking and dragging those boxes into the training queue? There's no work, there's no effort. In the case of learning skills there isn't even any interesting decisions apart from when would be the least annoying time to train them. There is only time.
You are not a special snowflake because you paused your character's ability progression at one point in time to gradually increase it later. *Everyone* has to do this. The only variant is how far they go between 4/3 and 5/5.
To start with, you're considering that laziness can only take a form of physical action, which is incorrect. The fact that you want a bonus because that's what you have defined in your head as the "standard" for absolutely nothing is sheer laziness. The fact is, the standard is the baseline stats you start with, hence why learning skills provide a BONUS (do I need to link the definition of bonus to help you understand that point?).
Secondly, I have a mining alt that only has 2 learning skills at 4/3 and the rest at like basic 2 or 3. And he's in a Hulk. SO I'm sorry, but your point is defeated right there. So guess what, they are OPTIONAL as proven by such case. Any more attempts at such a paultry arguement to getting a bonus because these skills are supposedly mandatory?
EDIT: correcting abyssmal spelling and incorrect sue of you're.
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:35:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Felix Esperium I do not support this.
I don't necessarily disagree with removing them. I disagree with automatically giving everyone a free +10 attributes. If you think the skills were a mistake to add from the start that's fine, but I don't see anyone who dislikes the faster training. I posted this in another thread on the matter but it seems like people just want to have their cake and eat it too.
(This proposal would actually be a buff for me also since I have only trained 5/4 on both of my accounts.)
This is my main issue with people wanting the training skills removed. It's "I want the training skills removed and everyone given +10 to each attribute" which to me reads "I cba to train the skills so gimme free stuff"
If you cba to learn them then don't, if you think they're worth the time then learn them.
If CCP do remove them I think the best way would be to remove them, drop everyone back to basic attributes and release a load more implants with the best being a +15. That way we're back on track with the "I think it's worth my time to spend xbillion on implants so I have 25 in what ever attraibute" --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:45:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Cash Render
To start with, you're considering that laziness can only take a form of physical action, which is incorrect. The fact that you want a bonus because that's what you have defined in your head as the "standard" for absolutely nothing is sheer laziness. The fact is, the standard is the baseline stats you start with, hence why learning skills provide a BONUS (do I need to link the definition of bonus to help you understand that point?).
Secondly, I have a mining alt that only has 2 learning skills at 4/3 and the rest at like basic 2 or 3. And he's in a Hulk. SO I'm sorry, but your point is defeated right there. So guess what, they are OPTIONAL as proven by such case. Any more attempts at such a paultry arguement to getting a bonus because these skills are supposedly mandatory?
Yes because alts are oh so relevant to this discussion here. Getting a new char in a hulk is 50 days training, of course you're not going to put more learning skills into it if that's as far as you plan to go. Guess what? Most new players a) don't know exactly what they're going to do b) don't plan to stop training skills after 50 days. Incidentally, you'd have been better off going 4/3 in everything except Charisma even if you wanted Hulk I and nothing else.
Again, training of skills requires minimal physical OR mental effort. They just require time.
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Cash Render
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:49:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render
To start with, you're considering that laziness can only take a form of physical action, which is incorrect. The fact that you want a bonus because that's what you have defined in your head as the "standard" for absolutely nothing is sheer laziness. The fact is, the standard is the baseline stats you start with, hence why learning skills provide a BONUS (do I need to link the definition of bonus to help you understand that point?).
Secondly, I have a mining alt that only has 2 learning skills at 4/3 and the rest at like basic 2 or 3. And he's in a Hulk. SO I'm sorry, but your point is defeated right there. So guess what, they are OPTIONAL as proven by such case. Any more attempts at such a paultry arguement to getting a bonus because these skills are supposedly mandatory?
Yes because alts are oh so relevant to this discussion here. Getting a new char in a hulk is 50 days training, of course you're not going to put more learning skills into it if that's as far as you plan to go. Guess what? Most new players a) don't know exactly what they're going to do b) don't plan to stop training skills after 50 days. Incidentally, you'd have been better off going 4/3 in everything except Charisma even if you wanted Hulk I and nothing else.
Again, training of skills requires minimal physical OR mental effort. They just require time.
That's funny, because the next thign on his list of things to get is to pilot a Jump Freighter... yet I'm not wasting time with the learnign skills I should have to be "effecient".
ANd considering tiem is the most precious commodity of all, I'd say that's quiet a valuable thing to spend.
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 13:15:00 -
[299]
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 13:15:59
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render
Personally, I don't care if they stay or not... but if they go it shouldn't be a free for all +attributes because people are lazy.
-Cash
What does laziness have to do with training skills in Eve? You think you're making a big effort by clicking and dragging those boxes into the training queue? There's no work, there's no effort. In the case of learning skills there isn't even any interesting decisions apart from when would be the least annoying time to train them. There is only time.
You are not a special snowflake because you paused your character's ability progression at one point in time to gradually increase it later. *Everyone* has to do this. The only variant is how far they go between 4/3 and 5/5.
But you do realize that the whole skill-system is about time, right? It takes time to get skills in EvE. How the skill system were implemented wasn't given by some divine intervention. I could have been set up in many different ways. For example you could buy the skill and plug it in end immediately have the skill (Matrix style, no training time). Or you could have the double training rate compared to now, or just half of it.
As a new player, what I did and many with me, was that we acknowledged the system for what it was and accepted it as a fundamental premise for the game. Not necessary because we thought it was the best conceivable system one could come up with. But it was same for everyone and that means parity which imo is important in any competitive game.
It takes time to get skills in EvE and learning skills are an integral part of this system. Asking for them to be removed is to be asking for a short cut. It is to say that you should not have to play the game at the same premise as players who came before you. It should not take you three years to get to the point, skill wise, that those before you had to wait three years to achieve.
CCP could take away learning skills and then add the time they take to train to the the rest of the skills by adjusting individual training rate. Then people could train ôfunö skills all the time and did not have to deal with the boring learning skills. Wouldn't that be the most fair system? Why are you guys not suggesting that?
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 13:34:00 -
[300]
Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 13:37:00 Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 13:34:14
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
It takes time to get skills in EvE and learning skills are an integral part of this system. Asking for them to be removed is to be asking for a short cut. It is to say that you should not have to play the game at the same premise as players who came before you. It should not take you three years to get to the point, skill wise, that those before you had to wait three years to achieve.
CCP could take away learning skills and then add the time they take to train to the the rest of the skills by adjusting individual training rate. Then people could train ôfunö skills all the time and did not have to deal with the boring learning skills. Wouldn't that be the most fair system? Why are you guys not suggesting that?
But that's just it. Learning skills *aren't* an integral part of the game. You could strip them out and the rest of the game would chug along merrily without even noticing. Though of course everyone would be training more slowly if you didn't increase the base attributes to balance it out. Its an unnecessary addon to a very intricate well designed skill system.
Would new players have it easier then veterans with learning skills gone. Not really, since the vets are already ahead in every measurable way. More knowledge, more connections, more skillpoints, more ISK, so there's no reason they should feel threatened or aggrieved by a chance there. New players just get to feel more useful a bit earlier, no big deal. The rest of the skill system still provides a good pacing mechanism to stop them hopping into battleships in week 2.
As to your final paragraph and suggestion for increasing skills to balance the time saved by getting instant +10s. Sure, I'd go along with that. I don't especially need or want faster training times, I'm over the hump so to speak already. And whenever I do hit a rut and need to wait for a skill to finish training, I just go play another game in the meantime.
Edit : Or I spam the Eve forums, as the case may be.
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Makumba Aki
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 13:44:00 -
[301]
It is annoying to train up learnings. So please remove them.
Waht comes as next?
It is annoying to train BS from IV to V, make it go much quicker.
Newbies want to fly capitals a week after they have started, make the training go quicker and give them 10 bil isk.
Introduce joystick-control to eve.
Make eve X-Box compatible.
No! No! No! It is just the wrong way to go! Much better would it be to give the newbies 1,5m SP for their disposal. So the still would need to decide whether they invest them in learnings or in spaceship command to fly big shiny ships right now.
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.01 13:53:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Makumba Aki It is annoying to train up learnings. So please remove them.
Waht comes as next?
It is annoying to train BS from IV to V, make it go much quicker.
Newbies want to fly capitals a week after they have started, make the training go quicker and give them 10 bil isk.
Introduce joystick-control to eve.
Make eve X-Box compatible.
No! No! No! It is just the wrong way to go! Much better would it be to give the newbies 1,5m SP for their disposal. So the still would need to decide whether they invest them in learnings or in spaceship command to fly big shiny ships right now.
I could agree to that idea, you'd have to give out the skillbooks for free too though I guess. People will still cry as it's still "not fair" though. Truth be told, all the training skills do is divide the "want nows" and the "want long terms" squarely down the middle.
I can see it being a thin end of a wedge if learning skills are removed. give people +10's too many support skills so everyone starts with lvl 3 in them, etc etc etc --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.01 13:54:00 -
[303]
Not supporting this idea.
This proposal is a whole lot of "something for nothing". If you want the learning skills removed, then remove them. No free bonuses for anyone.
If this proposal passes, what's next then? I think the same people who support this proposal will be begin screaming that cyber implants are not fair either. I mean...a new player can't use +5's right? He or she would have to train a skill. That skill would take a while. The implants are expensive. New players can't have that right away and that's not fair to them! Right? Let's do away with implants too or give all new players Cybernetics 5 and full sets of +5 implants! It's fair because older players are already ahead of them and so they shouldn't have to work through the rules of the game to achieve any of that. It should all just be given free right up front! Right?
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Admiral Chrom
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:04:00 -
[304]
there is no time to waste, remove the learning skills :D
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 14:09:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Takseen
Would new players have it easier then veterans with learning skills gone. Not really, since the vets are already ahead in every measurable way. More knowledge, more connections, more skillpoints, more ISK, so there's no reason they should feel threatened or aggrieved by a chance there. New players just get to feel more useful a bit earlier, no big deal. The rest of the skill system still provides a good pacing mechanism to stop them hopping into battleships in week 2.
CCP have constructed their game so that new players are at a disadvantage compared to veterans. It is a game-design. The whole skill-system puts new players at a disadvantage, not just learning skills. As I said, it did not have to be this way. You could get the skills by plugging them in and they could be cheap as dirt. Or you could have all skills to begin with.
Those that now are veterans have also been new players, that is important to remember. And the sandbox style of the game gives smart new players plenty of tools to compete even though they don't have all the SP. For example, there are players who just have played a fraction of the time I have been here, who has a lot more isk than me.
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Jasdiva
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 16:50:00 -
[306]
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.01 17:20:00 -
[307]
Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 17:20:13
Originally by: Jack Icegaard Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 15:08:18
CCP have constructed their game so that new players are at a disadvantage compared to veterans. It is a game-design. The whole skill-system puts new players at a disadvantage, not just learning skills. As I said, it did not have to be this way. You could get the skills by plugging them in and they could be cheap as dirt. Or you could have all skills to begin with.
Those that now are veterans have also been new players, that is important to remember.
So you agree that removing learning skills would not remove the advantage veterans have rightfully earned for having subscribed and played for longer?
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:15:00 -
[308]
Originally by: Takseen Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 17:20:13
Originally by: Jack Icegaard Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 15:08:18
CCP have constructed their game so that new players are at a disadvantage compared to veterans. It is a game-design. The whole skill-system puts new players at a disadvantage, not just learning skills. As I said, it did not have to be this way. You could get the skills by plugging them in and they could be cheap as dirt. Or you could have all skills to begin with.
Those that now are veterans have also been new players, that is important to remember.
So you agree that removing learning skills would not remove the advantage veterans have rightfully earned for having subscribed and played for longer?
I can't be sure but I don't think that's the point they were making. Having read a variety of your posts now, though, I can say you are quite adept at putting words in people's mouths. I'll wager that you are a salesperson in RL. I can see the assumptive sales technique in a great many of your posts. Once I look past your nearly religious hatred of learning skills, your obvious bias, and your nauseating sense of entitlement, your salesmanship skills can be seen.
To further address your last statement, of course removing the learning skills removes ( as you yourself called it ) an "advantage veterans have rightfully earned for having subscribed and played for longer". You want to give that rightfully earned ability for training speed to the newest of the new and the most worthless of the unwilling. You are contradicting yourself.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:26:00 -
[309]
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 19:37:00
Originally by: Takseen Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 17:20:13
Originally by: Jack Icegaard Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 15:08:18
CCP have constructed their game so that new players are at a disadvantage compared to veterans. It is a game-design. The whole skill-system puts new players at a disadvantage, not just learning skills. As I said, it did not have to be this way. You could get the skills by plugging them in and they could be cheap as dirt. Or you could have all skills to begin with.
Those that now are veterans have also been new players, that is important to remember.
So you agree that removing learning skills would not remove the advantage veterans have rightfully earned for having subscribed and played for longer?
I think you are trying to deflect the point I'm trying to make here, or you just don't grasp it. To me this is not a matter of safeguarding advantages for veterans as you are insinuating with your question.
The skill-system is designed in a way that puts new players at a disadvantage compared to veterans. Therefore, saying that learning skills should be removed because they put new players at a disadvantage is not really a valid argument. Obviously, if the goal was to design a skill-system that did not put new players at a disadvantage, then training time should be removed completely.
Removing learning skills would of course remove one of the disadvantages that new players have to face. So, yes, new players today would have a faster and easier rout to skills compared to those that had very little starting SP, no accelerated training time and had to train learning skills to get up to speed.
The question will then be: Why stop there? Why not keep spoon-feeding new players all kinds of stuff to make it easier on them? Because if learning skills are such a turn off for new players, most likely they will find another obstacle they will not like, that will put them off.
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Rer Eirikr
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:41:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Jack Icegaard The question must then be. Why stop there? Why not keep spoon-feeding new players all kind of stuff to make it easier on them? Because if learning skills are such a turn off for new players, rest assured that they will find another obstacle they will not like, that will put them off.
I in no way mean to show a lack of respect for opposing opinions. However...
"In debate or rhetoric, a slippery slope is a classical informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom."
While I can understand your concern, you should consider the fact that just this one debate is a very heated and passionate one. Both sides bring valid points to the argument. "If" Learning Skills were removed, should any new arguments calling for similar changes appear, I'd be confident that such passions would prevent the "Slippery Slope Collaspe" of EVE.
That said, in my opinion, the cons of Learning Skills outweigh the pros. Whether that holds true to the majority of the playerbase remains to be seen however, and I fully understand the opposition's concerns. I simply mean to show that such an argument isn't really valid.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:03:00 -
[311]
Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 20:03:53
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
I think you are trying to deflect the point I'm trying to make here, or you just don't grasp it. To me this is not a matter of safeguarding advantages for veterans as you are insinuating with your question.
The skill-system is designed in a way that puts new players at a disadvantage compared to veterans. Therefore, saying that learning skills should be removed because they put new players at a disadvantage is not really a valid argument. Obviously, if the goal was to design a skill-system that did not put new players at a disadvantage, then training time should be removed completely.
I'm not making that argument though. I don't give a toss if veterans have 50 or 500 million more skill points than me since I'm not in direct competition with them. Its those who don't want learning skills removed that say its unfair to vets and will close the gap. I don't care, I just want the extremely strong incentive for new players to not train useful skills for their first days/weeks/months to be removed. If they rolled that time into slightly longer training time needed for other skills, it'd be a decent compromise.
Edit : And yeah, the slippery slope argument is weak.
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:18:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Rer Eirikr
Originally by: Jack Icegaard The question must then be. Why stop there? Why not keep spoon-feeding new players all kind of stuff to make it easier on them? Because if learning skills are such a turn off for new players, rest assured that they will find another obstacle they will not like, that will put them off.
I in no way mean to show a lack of respect for opposing opinions. However...
"In debate or rhetoric, a slippery slope is a classical informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom."
While I can understand your concern, you should consider the fact that just this one debate is a very heated and passionate one. Both sides bring valid points to the argument. "If" Learning Skills were removed, should any new arguments calling for similar changes appear, I'd be confident that such passions would prevent the "Slippery Slope Collaspe" of EVE.
That said, in my opinion, the cons of Learning Skills outweigh the pros. Whether that holds true to the majority of the playerbase remains to be seen however, and I fully understand the opposition's concerns. I simply mean to show that such an argument isn't really valid.
Yes, but trying to misconstrue someones argument is also common in rhetoric.  The point Im trying to make here is that the same logic that is being used to argue that training skills should be removed, can be used to argue that training time for skills should be shortened or even removed. Learning skills are not fundamentally different from the skill system as a whole. Acquiring skill takes time. That is the fundamental trait of the system.
This is not a slippery slope argument. For example, saying that you should not yield to terrorist demands because that will lead to more terrorism, is not a slippery slope argument even if it could be construed to be such an argument.
A slippery slope argument is more like ôIf you try weed you are bound to end up as heavy drug addictö
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:39:00 -
[313]
It's definitely a slippery slope. The fallacy is avoided because the middle ground is acknowledged. You guys do know that there are other possible compromises on the learning skill situation besides the way this is currently drafted, right? This current proposal is simply a welfare bill. Free stuff for the needy.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:43:00 -
[314]
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 20:46:35
Originally by: Takseen Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 20:03:53
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
I think you are trying to deflect the point I'm trying to make here, or you just don't grasp it. To me this is not a matter of safeguarding advantages for veterans as you are insinuating with your question.
The skill-system is designed in a way that puts new players at a disadvantage compared to veterans. Therefore, saying that learning skills should be removed because they put new players at a disadvantage is not really a valid argument. Obviously, if the goal was to design a skill-system that did not put new players at a disadvantage, then training time should be removed completely.
I'm not making that argument though. I don't give a toss if veterans have 50 or 500 million more skill points than me since I'm not in direct competition with them. Its those who don't want learning skills removed that say its unfair to vets and will close the gap. I don't care, I just want the extremely strong incentive for new players to not train useful skills for their first days/weeks/months to be removed. If they rolled that time into slightly longer training time needed for other skills, it'd be a decent compromise.
Ok, well then I think we agree. I was mostly arguing against the essence in many of the arguments and requests raised in these learning skill threads. You mentioned the time aspect though.
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:33:00 -
[315]
What!! I have to train Advanced Spaceship Command to level 5 just so I can get into a carrier!? So I train a full month just so that my carrier will align to warp 0.4 seconds faster? CCP are you f**** kidding me. You don't warp carriers, they jump. Gee, that is really fun game you have here - NOT!
If Advanced Spaceship Command V is a prerequisite it does not ad anything to the game. Everyone who want to fly a carrier must train it. Remove that skill and just bump up the agility stat for carriers. This is a major turn off for new players who want to get into capital ships. I had 25 friends who played EvE but when they saw this joke they all said fu and went to play WoW instead. This need change CCP.
And learning skills also of course. Learning skills should also be removed. /parody
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.07.02 02:16:00 -
[316]
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Cash Render
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Posted - 2010.07.02 02:38:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Takseen Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 20:40:42 Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 20:03:53
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
I think you are trying to deflect the point I'm trying to make here, or you just don't grasp it. To me this is not a matter of safeguarding advantages for veterans as you are insinuating with your question.
The skill-system is designed in a way that puts new players at a disadvantage compared to veterans. Therefore, saying that learning skills should be removed because they put new players at a disadvantage is not really a valid argument. Obviously, if the goal was to design a skill-system that did not put new players at a disadvantage, then training time should be removed completely.
I'm not making that argument though. I don't give a toss if veterans have 50 or 500 million more skill points than me since I'm not in direct competition with them. Its those who don't want learning skills removed that say its unfair to vets and will close the gap. I don't care, I just want the extremely strong incentive for new players to not train useful skills for their first days/weeks/months to be removed. If they rolled that time into slightly longer training time needed for other skills, it'd be a decent compromise.
Edit : And yeah, the slippery slope argument is weak. Edit2 : And I think learning skills are sufficiently different to other skills that to justify removing them. Note the absence of any other complaints about other skill training times.
Actually, what almost all of you asking for the Learning skills to be removed have asked for is the +10 and +10% BONUSES provided by those skills for free. Several of us for the Skills staying have said that if you want to remove them, than simply take them away AND the bonus they provide. There is a big difference between asking that the skills are removed and asking for the bonus they provide for free. If all you're TRULY concerned about is new players being able to train "fun" skills without worry of Learning skills, then we don't need the bonuses. I've made this point multiple times now, and you've yet to address why it is you want the bonuses even though you want the skills removed. Once again, it's simple evidence that you simply want something for free... instead of it truly being a matter of "helping the new players enjoy the fun of the game without a stupid time sink with no benefits". After all, it's a worthless time sink with no benefits, so why should you get the bonuses they provide. I'll support the removal of the Learning skills without even a redistribution of said points invested if it meant a true removal and none of this instant gratification nonsense you lot keep spouting.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.07.02 03:09:00 -
[318]
Originally by: Cash Render
Several of us for the Skills staying have said that if you want to remove them, than simply take them away AND the bonus they provide.
And most people think that doubling or even tripling training times would *NOT* be a good idea. Do you have any good reasons as to why we should want doubled or tripled training times?
Originally by: Cash Render Once again, it's simple evidence that you simply want something for free...
And while we're at it, we really should get rid of those free remaps and accelerated training bonus, and newbie tutorials, or at least start charging for them. Us old timers didn't have them in the beginning.
Is this really about wanting something free, or is this about getting a better value for our 14.99/month?
Originally by: Cash Render instead of it truly being a matter of "helping the new players enjoy the fun of the game without a stupid time sink with no benefits". After all, it's a worthless time sink with no benefits, so why should you get the bonuses they provide.
Eh? Have you not been paying attention? The whole problem is that it's *NOT* a worthless time sink. It's such an incredibly useful time sink that if you plan on playing the for any length of time, the most logical course of action is to spend the first month+, first remap, and all of your accelerated training time to get the learning skills up to at least 5/4.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Speakerofdead
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Posted - 2010.07.02 03:37:00 -
[319]
Edited by: Speakerofdead on 02/07/2010 03:39:14 Edited by: Speakerofdead on 02/07/2010 03:38:55 You will not know how many more people hated and was driven away by the learning skill because you cannot post here without a active account. I myself deleted my character with +5 implants and speak here at the last. Training that stuff simply makes me feel silly that I am paying months for NOTHING, and I was just hijacked by the skills instead of playing because of feeling fun.
I simply want to tell CCP that learning skills absulotely screws rookie experence up and whom skills hurting is not only rookies but also you. 3 quarters of the rookies will be driven away by the freaking waiting for something does no help to gameplay and by those geek veterans who are more than happy to make the game geeker. What CCP doing is just blocking money away just for no reason.
All my friends invited quited after a few weeks,leaving a character remains capable for nothing.So stop talking about patience! they play for fun and they don't need a game to teach them how miserable and ridiculous life can be, they just chose to not to feel silly.If 90% of rookies are driven away,it is not about patience, it is about a geek system and a desigener's failure.
All innovations will annoy someone.So what? Should american keep slavery?Although some veterans threaten with quit, I am sure they will not abandon their 50m character just because they get 4.5m more for free. All they really lose is just their superiority built up IN A GAME, and that is just because others in the game are crippled. Come on , you are not really that pathetic,are you?
A fun game is a good game,not a geek one.
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.02 04:41:00 -
[320]
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 02/07/2010 04:52:37
Originally by: Speakerofdead
You will not know how many more people hated and was driven away by the learning skill because you cannot post here without a active account. I myself deleted my character with +5 implants and speak here at the last. Training that stuff simply makes me feel silly that I am paying months for NOTHING, and I was just hijacked by the skills instead of playing because of feeling fun.
I simply want to tell CCP that learning skills absulotely screws rookie experence up and whom skills hurting is not only rookies but also you...
So when exactly does the game get fun? When you have 5m SP? Or is at 10m SP? Is there a magical number where the fun suddenly begins? I thought the first month in the game was very fun. I recently took an alt with 1.8 M SP and went through an epic arc in 0.0 flying a Rifter. For me it was challenging and fun. I don't really understand all this obsessing with learning skills. You just need to see the bigger picture, that training learning skills means a little progress in every useful skill you yet have to train. They are not fundamentally different from the skill-system as a whole. I don't say this to gloat or to try to push you down. As a veteran player I really don't have anything against you also having fun.
There are things in other games that puts me off. For example I just had to read a review of a certain Blizzard game to know that I never would play that game. Of course I could have gone to their forums and moan about how much the game sucked and how they should change it to suit me, but I didn't. Point being, no game will suit everyone. Some will like it, others will not. Eve is obviously not an exception here.
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Ste'ven Sch'orik
Gallente Royal Khanid Industry Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2010.07.02 04:47:00 -
[321]
Not supported. I say keep the learning skills. I didnt kill all that time spent training them up just to have my attributes taken away. I prefer being able to reduce my training times. I intend to take all the learning skills to level 5 and thats that. If you dont like training the learning skills then do them later once you have something interesting trained up so that you have something to do while you wait. Lazyness will get you nowhere in this game. ________________________________________________
Roses are red and violets are blue, you shoot at me and you will die too. |

Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.02 04:52:00 -
[322]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 02/07/2010 04:52:20
Originally by: Ste'ven Sch'orik Not supported. I say keep the learning skills. I didnt kill all that time spent training them up just to have my attributes taken away. I prefer being able to reduce my training times. I intend to take all the learning skills to level 5 and thats that. If you dont like training the learning skills then do them later once you have something interesting trained up so that you have something to do while you wait. Lazyness will get you nowhere in this game.
1. Read the OP post 2. If you still don't get it, read again 3. GOTO2 4. GOTO2 5. GOTO2 6. GOTO2 7. You should've now realized that none wants to take your invested skill points away 8. If not, GOTO2
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Holy Veldspar - where cool kids gather. REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.02 05:18:00 -
[323]
Learning skills are nothing but an unnecessary barrier to new players committing to the game. They do not add to the game or improve anyone's play experience.
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Speakerofdead
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Posted - 2010.07.02 07:09:00 -
[324]
Originally by: Jack Icegaard Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 02/07/2010 05:01:35
Originally by: Speakerofdead
You will not know how many more people hated and was driven away by the learning skill because you cannot post here without a active account. I myself deleted my character with +5 implants and speak here at the last. Training that stuff simply makes me feel silly that I am paying months for NOTHING, and I was just hijacked by the skills instead of playing because of feeling fun.
I simply want to tell CCP that learning skills absulotely screws rookie experence up and whom skills hurting is not only rookies but also you...
So when exactly does the game get fun? When you have 5m SP? Or is at 10m SP? Is there a magical number where the fun suddenly begins? I thought the first month in the game was very fun. I recently took an alt with 1.8 M SP and went through an epic arc in 0.0 flying a Rifter. For me it was challenging and fun.
I don't really understand all this obsessing with learning skills. You just need to see the bigger picture, that training learning skills means a little progress in every useful skill you yet have to train. They are not fundamentally different from the skill-system as a whole. I don't say this to gloat or to try to push you down. As a veteran player I really don't have anything against you also having fun.
There are things in other games that puts me off too. For example, I just had to read a review of a certain Blizzard game to know that I never would play that game. Of course I could have gone to their forums and complain about how much their game suck and how they should change it to suit me. Point being, no game will suit everyone. Some will like it, others will not. Eve is obviously not an exception here.
I was just fed up with those "hardcore moan" against "rookie moan".--we cannot get better UI because we are hardcore,we cannot get bigger texts because we are hardcore,we have to block rookies away and have fewer players because of that ****.
Everyone brings up Rifter when talking about SP problem. Rifter may be fun to an alt character who worriies about nothing and can be alted back any time you like. But Rifters are not that fun when all you have is Rifter and cannot afford to lose it.
I had 15m character,but I fully support of removing LS because it is a fun-destoryer. operating spaceships may be fun in this game, training to make your character grow may be fun. being told that you have to train months for nothing is NOT,and that is exactly what LS tells rookies.It's not about ruining veteran advantages,it's about less unecessary geek hardcore and let more have fun.
I hope that the game take some effort to satisfy more people rather than being a "hardcore" **** full of pathetic geek.It is OK if the game was intended to be "hard" to play,but now to the rookies ,It feels more like eve is "forbidden" to play.
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Cash Render
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Posted - 2010.07.02 10:59:00 -
[325]
Edited by: Cash Render on 02/07/2010 11:00:37
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Cash Render
Several of us for the Skills staying have said that if you want to remove them, than simply take them away AND the bonus they provide.
And most people think that doubling or even tripling training times would *NOT* be a good idea. Do you have any good reasons as to why we should want doubled or tripled training times?
Actually, the easiest one to point out would be that you're against the very skills that have made you use to the current speed. If the skills never existed, you wouldn't know the difference. So I stand by the complete removal.
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Cash Render Once again, it's simple evidence that you simply want something for free...
And while we're at it, we really should get rid of those free remaps and accelerated training bonus, and newbie tutorials, or at least start charging for them. Us old timers didn't have them in the beginning.
Actually, I would personally be all for that since I personally enjoy games that take forever and encourage long bouts of frustration.
Originally by: stoicfaux Is this really about wanting something free, or is this about getting a better value for our 14.99/month?
If the value isn't currently already worth it, why are you paying it/ You're argument doesn't work in your favor since if the current state of the game isn't "valuable" enough to pay the $14.99 than you wouldn't be paying it.
Originally by: Cash Render instead of it truly being a matter of "helping the new players enjoy the fun of the game without a stupid time sink with no benefits". After all, it's a worthless time sink with no benefits, so why should you get the bonuses they provide.
Eh? Have you not been paying attention? The whole problem is that it's *NOT* a worthless time sink. It's such an incredibly useful time sink that if you plan on playing the for any length of time, the most logical course of action is to spend the first month+, first remap, and all of your accelerated training time to get the learning skills up to at least 5/4.
Which once again be you asking for a skill based BONUS for free. If the skill that reduces the TOTAL amount of time it takes for EVERY skill in the game is a problematic time sink, than it's total justification that EVERY skill is a problematic time sink and should be removed because we don't want to spend the time to get the benefits.
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes Learning skills are nothing but an unnecessary barrier to new players committing to the game. They do not add to the game or improve anyone's play experience.
So reducign the tiem ti takes to learn everything else doesn't add to the game? As for improving peoples' experiences, it makes things go FASTER. Please tell me how that isn't improving peoples' experience? Since you don't think it is, apparantly, than you probably would agree on simply removign them completely without givign everyoen the attributes bonus.
Originally by: Speakerofdead train months for nothing
Dead wrong. You train months so that you can shave time off of your total skill plan. A good example is getting a new player into a Harpy with T2 Guns, AB, Warp Scrambler, Stasis Field, and Rigging takes 70 days according to Evemon... withotu LEarning skills. With Learning skills, it takes 54 days. I would say that it's a pretty big difference considerign that every other skill you train is likewise affected. So it's definitely not "nothing".
Originally by: Speakerofdead it's about less unecessary geek hardcore and let more have fun.
you're calling 2 months of trainign for an entire skill tree "geek hardcore" when there are individual skills that are as long? If 2 months is "hardcore" than perhaps you shouldn't be playing since times only go up from teh start.
EDIT: Wrong word.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2010.07.02 11:20:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Cash Render
Actually, I would personally be all for that since I personally enjoy games that take forever and encourage long bouts of frustration.
And that's why the pro learning skills crowd will never quit. As long as some people on one side think eve should be fun, and the other side thinks like Cash Render here, there's never going to be any agreement.
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Cash Render
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Posted - 2010.07.02 11:27:00 -
[327]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render
Actually, I would personally be all for that since I personally enjoy games that take forever and encourage long bouts of frustration.
And that's why the pro learning skills crowd will never quit. As long as some people on one side think eve should be fun, and the other side thinks like Cash Render here, there's never going to be any agreement.
You do realize that some people find being OCD about maxing thigns out to be FUN, right? Personally, I just prefer a game that frustrates me because it means that it's not a game I'll be done with in a month or two. Mind you, I think getting actual skills are fun, but getting benefits for nothing is just plain pathetic and a disgrace. It's the first step toward WoW'dom.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2010.07.02 11:33:00 -
[328]
Originally by: Cash Render
You do realize that some people find being OCD about maxing thigns out to be FUN, right? Personally, I just prefer a game that frustrates me because it means that it's not a game I'll be done with in a month or two. Mind you, I think getting actual skills are fun, but getting benefits for nothing is just plain pathetic and a disgrace. It's the first step toward WoW'dom.
Right, which is why the whole debate is pointless since its down to personal preference as to what one enjoys in a game.
In any case, CCP have already lowered the prerequisites on skills in the past, probing, thermodynamics, cloaking etc. So its not unlikely that they'd hand out other advantages to newer players in the future. We'll have to wait and see what move the devs make.
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Cash Render
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Posted - 2010.07.02 11:42:00 -
[329]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render
You do realize that some people find being OCD about maxing thigns out to be FUN, right? Personally, I just prefer a game that frustrates me because it means that it's not a game I'll be done with in a month or two. Mind you, I think getting actual skills are fun, but getting benefits for nothing is just plain pathetic and a disgrace. It's the first step toward WoW'dom.
Right, which is why the whole debate is pointless since its down to personal preference as to what one enjoys in a game.
In any case, CCP have already lowered the prerequisites on skills in the past, probing, thermodynamics, cloaking etc. So its not unlikely that they'd hand out other advantages to newer players in the future. We'll have to wait and see what move the devs make.
Debates are never pointless as long as they don't turn into a bunch of insults, slander, and childishness. A good debate is always a healthy thing and gives everyoen a chance to see/hear/read both sides of an argument.
And waiting for the Devs to decide is the only thing any of us can actually do abotu the subject, but doesn't change that we can discuss what we think is best. Important thing is to keep it from becominc personal attacks.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2010.07.02 11:57:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Cash Render
And waiting for the Devs to decide is the only thing any of us can actually do abotu the subject, but doesn't change that we can discuss what we think is best.
Yeah. The thing is, we're debating whether learning skills are a good thing for new players. And since obviously those who were so put off by them that they stopped playing aren't here to present their views, only the dev team and their customer survey team knows how many of them there are.
Plus even if they see that more players are put off by them, they might decide they prefer it that way. Wouldn't be the first time they've sidelined players' opinions on things.
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Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2010.07.02 13:57:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render
And waiting for the Devs to decide is the only thing any of us can actually do abotu the subject, but doesn't change that we can discuss what we think is best.
Yeah. The thing is, we're debating whether learning skills are a good thing for new players. And since obviously those who were so put off by them that they stopped playing aren't here to present their views, only the dev team and their customer survey team knows how many of them there are.
Are you ignoring the multiple new players who posted that they appreciated the learning skills as something to slow them down so they could get perspective on this huge new world?
And as I've said many times, anyone who sits in the station while training learning skills needs to find another game, cause they won't survive well in EVE. While training those skills, you can do some of the career missions, you can learn how boring mining is (or enjoyable, if you like that sort of thing), you can learn to steel cans from noob minors (not condoning of course ), you can even venture into low sec... in fact its best to go into low sec early, so you don't risk implants and it will take a while to get the close-to-risk-free jump clones.
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Riedle
Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:10:00 -
[332]
Supported 100%
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:13:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Takseen
...And that's why the pro learning skills crowd will never quit...
The pro learning skills crowd will never quit because the anti learning skills crowd is equally relentless. You would like for this to end? Give up now.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Kuikiker
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:16:00 -
[334]
Supported
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Lost Troll
Moist and Nakked Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.02 15:07:00 -
[335]
For a new player, there are just too many skills need to be trained to get to the same level as some one starting out a few years ago since the game dynamics have changed so much over the years.
The learning skills were a good time/ISK sink back when there were not many skills in the game and players could make ISK just in doing one or two things. Now we jump to forward and there are now over 350+ skills in the game. ISK making has been nerfed to the point that you have to do 4 to 5 different things to make ISK to support your self.
PVP'ing has also now changed to the point that T2 cruisers/fitted battleships is a normal de facto if you want to have a fair chance at doing it.
They need to go.
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BjornarGoesToSpace
Local-Spike
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:00:00 -
[336]
Use the current system they just implemented and give skillpoints back to those who invested in learningskills. And yes i know most people benefitted from training learningskills but its still skillpoints removed and it should be reimbursed. Supported.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:12:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Corina Jarr
Are you ignoring the multiple new players who posted that they appreciated the learning skills as something to slow them down so they could get perspective on this huge new world?
And as I've said many times, anyone who sits in the station while training learning skills needs to find another game, cause they won't survive well in EVE. While training those skills, you can do some of the career missions, you can learn how boring mining is (or enjoyable, if you like that sort of thing), you can learn to steel cans from noob minors (not condoning of course ), you can even venture into low sec... in fact its best to go into low sec early, so you don't risk implants and it will take a while to get the close-to-risk-free jump clones.
I'm not ignoring the pro-learning skills newbies, I recognised that its a personal preference thing a post or two ago. My point was that the anti-learning skills newbies who are *really* put off by them obviously aren't here due to no longer playing Eve:) And that only CCP have a full picture of which type are the majority from looking at those surveys people fill out when they unsub.
And yes, you don't have to sit in a station while you train LS. But that early exploration you suggested would only be more enjoyable if they could actually train skills relevant to each career path. And if you can find one newbie poster who said that early skill progression would be too fast without learning skills to slow it down, I will be very impressed and a little astounded:)
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Clovermite
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Posted - 2010.07.02 18:45:00 -
[338]
Edited by: Clovermite on 02/07/2010 18:45:56 Hey I'm all for being able to train faster - approved.
I am rather curious though:
CCP just awarded every player a set of skill points to allocate wherever they chose.
Likewise, they could refund all players the SPs they put into learning skills. As for the money spent on the books, CCP could also refund them the NPC cost of the skill books required for said skills.
What did people not like about this solution?
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.02 18:49:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Clovermite Edited by: Clovermite on 02/07/2010 18:45:56 Hey I'm all for being able to train faster - approved.
I am rather curious though:
CCP just awarded every player a set of skill points to allocate wherever they chose.
Likewise, they could refund all players the SPs they put into learning skills. As for the money spent on the books, CCP could also refund them the NPC cost of the skill books required for said skills.
What did people not like about this solution?
People who disapprove:
- 10% are people who couldn't read the suggestion
- 20% are angry vets with no RL and don't want new players to join the game
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 19:14:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Clovermite Edited by: Clovermite on 02/07/2010 18:45:56 Hey I'm all for being able to train faster - approved.
I am rather curious though:
CCP just awarded every player a set of skill points to allocate wherever they chose.
Likewise, they could refund all players the SPs they put into learning skills. As for the money spent on the books, CCP could also refund them the NPC cost of the skill books required for said skills.
What did people not like about this solution?
People who disapprove:
- 10% are people who couldn't read the suggestion
- 20% are angry vets with no RL and don't want new players to join the game
I have a similarly clever list:
People who approve of this: 50% Self-righteous whiners with a run-away sense of entitlement 50% Drooling, diaper-****ting, booger eaters
You what my list adds to this discussion that yours doesn't? Nothing! They are both equally asinine!
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 19:19:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Jasdemi
People who disapprove:
- 10% are people who couldn't read the suggestion
- 20% are angry vets with no RL and don't want new players to join the game
Sorry, but this type op arguments is at the level of imbeciles: ôIf you don't agree with me you must either be stupid, or a troll or you live in momas basement lololololö
Don't bring this down at this level please.
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Ohmiri
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Posted - 2010.07.02 20:21:00 -
[342]
I am a noob, started just a couple of weeks ago.
I'm not in any particular hurry, so as I went through the tutorials and read the wiki, it seemed to me to be the best strategy to train up to Learning 5 and the other learning skills to 4. I did and I enjoyed it. I'll still have a few hundred K points of my 1.6 million bonus after Analytical Mind 5 completes tomorrow -- 83 skills total, about 680K in Learning.
I only hope the CCP solution is fair for those of us who spent some of their 100% bonus on Learning and who have not played the game long enough to fully reap the long-term benefits thereof -- i.e, the opportunity cost. The proposal doesn't seem to consider this. I admit I have not read the bulk of the other messages, so I do not know if someone else has pointed this out. 2x for Learning points spent during the bonus might be fair.
I do not understand why (1) is fair to those who spent points on Learning because those who did not would receive the same benefit.
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Chilton Haynes
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 20:33:00 -
[343]
I do NOT support any modification of the Learning Skills
I have invested time by my own choosing. Train them if you want or don't.
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Clovermite
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:20:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Ohmiri
I only hope the CCP solution is fair for those of us who spent some of their 100% bonus on Learning and who have not played the game long enough to fully reap the long-term benefits thereof -- i.e, the opportunity cost. The proposal doesn't seem to consider this.
There are really only two opportunity costs for investing in Learning:
1) Potential time wasted doing activities you are bored because you don't have access to the skills to do activities you really want to do.
2) Skill points invested in a "meta skill" instead of one that would actually get you something.
The devs have no control over time and can't give you that back, but they can reimburse your skill points. The proposal DOES take this into consideration by giving you a temporary boost in training time equivalent to how many SPs you've put into learning.
Originally by: Ohmiri
I do not understand why (1) is fair to those who spent points on Learning because those who did not would receive the same benefit.
It's fair because, without learning skills, all players would be operating at the same training times (not considering implants). Personally, I would prefer that we all train faster rather than slower.
Originally by: Ohmiri
2x for Learning points spent during the bonus might be fair.
I forgot about the initial bonus period. This sounds like a good idea - bigger increase in temporary training time boost for SPs allocated during bonus period.
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Inari Valar
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:30:00 -
[345]
I'd support this change. Learning skills need to be removed.
One change I'd make is to not give everyone +10 to each attribute immediately. Instead, I'd phase it in gradually as players gain SP. Every 500k SP gives someone +1 to an attribute, until they reach +10. This means that new specialty alts won't be able to train incredibly quickly towards specific builds, while new players who play for a few months will still gradually get the +10 bonus.
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 22:49:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Inari Valar I'd support this change. Learning skills need to be removed.
One change I'd make is to not give everyone +10 to each attribute immediately. Instead, I'd phase it in gradually as players gain SP. Every 500k SP gives someone +1 to an attribute, until they reach +10. This means that new specialty alts won't be able to train incredibly quickly towards specific builds, while new players who play for a few months will still gradually get the +10 bonus.
I like this idea, its similar to one the devs suggested in the fanfest video of having a dual progression of learning and regular skills.
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Corina Jarr
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 23:36:00 -
[347]
Edited by: Corina Jarr on 02/07/2010 23:38:22
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Inari Valar I'd support this change. Learning skills need to be removed.
One change I'd make is to not give everyone +10 to each attribute immediately. Instead, I'd phase it in gradually as players gain SP. Every 500k SP gives someone +1 to an attribute, until they reach +10. This means that new specialty alts won't be able to train incredibly quickly towards specific builds, while new players who play for a few months will still gradually get the +10 bonus.
I like this idea, its similar to one the devs suggested in the fanfest video of having a dual progression of learning and regular skills.
Now this I would support. It would make sense, instead of learning from a book, you learn by doing.
Quote: I'm not ignoring the pro-learning skills newbies, I recognised that its a personal preference thing a post or two ago. My point was that the anti-learning skills newbies who are *really* put off by them obviously aren't here due to no longer playing Eve:) And that only CCP have a full picture of which type are the majority from looking at those surveys people fill out when they unsub.
I understand now. Thank you for clarifying.
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 00:18:00 -
[348]
Learning skills are going to be removed.
I approve of this method.
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Mr TextBig
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 00:52:00 -
[349]
This can also be supported in a RP perspective
What did the characters do in their university(before the were created by player)? How could all of them graduate without knowing anything even how to learn??
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stoicfaux
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 03:13:00 -
[350]
Ok, having read the various threads and thinking about it some more, I'm willing concede that the 'keep learning skills as is' crowd aren't completely[1] full of it.
I think we all can admit that the learning skills are mostly bearable in small doses. You don't need to train Charisma if you just want a PvP pilot. You don't need 5/5 in Perception and Willpower before you train Frigates V. We don't need to save every possible minute of training.
For us old timers, the learning skills were more bearable in the old days because we had a *CHOICE* as to when we could train the learning skills. Our attributes were fixed (no remaps) and there was no accelerated training bonus, so it didn't matter if we trained Charisma to 5/4 right away or put it off for a few years. It wasn't a big deal if we stopped training the learning skills to switch to a short term skill that provided more fun factor.
The problem is that newbies no longer feel they have a choice on when they can train the learning skills. Newbies can get almost 16 days of learning skills before the 1.6 million cut off (Evemon- optimized attrubtes, no implants.) Any day not spent on learning skills becomes two days of training/boredom later.
Newbies also get two remaps. The first remap can be used to maximize mem/int for the learning skills. This gives the newbie one final remap with which to focus on their primary interest. Further remaps are a year away. Thus, there's a strong incentive to get the most out of your first remap which means training the learning skills to a high level.
The accelerated bonus time and two free remaps make it possible to, and encourage newbies to SPECIALIZE in training the learning skills. Specialization, by definition, prevents choice. It's this perceived lack of choice that has caused the learning skills to become so hated recently.
tl;dr The learning skills aren't the problem. The accelerated training time and two initial remaps are the problem.
[1] "Mostly" is a better word. I'm all about compromise. ;-)
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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RalphsInTown
Gallente Great Sage Equaling Heaven Blade.
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Posted - 2010.07.03 05:14:00 -
[351]
sign, I would be more than happy 
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kikonon
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:22:00 -
[352]
good bump
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Cash Render
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:30:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Inari Valar I'd support this change. Learning skills need to be removed.
One change I'd make is to not give everyone +10 to each attribute immediately. Instead, I'd phase it in gradually as players gain SP. Every 500k SP gives someone +1 to an attribute, until they reach +10. This means that new specialty alts won't be able to train incredibly quickly towards specific builds, while new players who play for a few months will still gradually get the +10 bonus.
This I could adn would gladly support. It's not a out of the gate bonus package for instant gratification, and yet still gives the ability for people to ignore the trainign skills and go for the fun stuff.
Originally by: stoicfaux
tl;dr The learning skills aren't the problem. The accelerated training time and two initial remaps are the problem.
I think this is a very possible thing and could be worth actually discussing. After all, why wouldn't people encourage others to maximize there total trainign time when such an obvious "push" method is set in place to accelerate it from the get go. Not to mention, new players don't get a feel for EVE's TRUE training speed until after the 1.6mil mark.
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edokingshopper
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Posted - 2010.07.03 06:42:00 -
[354]
totally supported i really hate learning:(
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Rer Eirikr
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.03 06:48:00 -
[355]
Originally by: stoicfaux The accelerated bonus time and two free remaps make it possible to, and encourage newbies to SPECIALIZE in training the learning skills. Specialization, by definition, prevents choice. It's this perceived lack of choice that has caused the learning skills to become so hated recently.
That's a very intelligent way of looking at it, nicely done sir. Its not so much of a choice when the system blatantly gives you incentives to get them out of the way. The above idea of slowly giving attributes over time not only makes sense, but also (as the above poster above me shows) draws a larger crowd into the supporting area given that it removes instant-gratification from the argument. This could be the compromise that sets such an action forward. 
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SanaeKotiya
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 07:03:00 -
[356]
Support.
Hopes this solution could help newbies to "real" enter this game faster and easier
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Ogirl
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Posted - 2010.07.03 07:44:00 -
[357]
Support
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Markser
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 07:48:00 -
[358]
Edited by: Markser on 03/07/2010 07:48:35 A very good suggestion, taking several weeks on learning skills is boring to everyone especially the newbies.
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GENIUS'JK
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Posted - 2010.07.03 09:23:00 -
[359]
Supported Please ccp hurry up and do this!
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Yui Gloria
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:28:00 -
[360]
That would save players a lot of time and help rookies get into this game quickly.
Good idea.
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Sylvaner Trojan
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:34:00 -
[361]
Originally by: Kaya Divine Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.
Solution
- 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes
10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.
- 2. Remove all learning skills.
Like they never existed.
- 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.
Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.
That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.
Now, the question is: Would you be totally satisfied with this change?
good idea.
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total play
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:36:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Kaya Divine Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.
Solution
- 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes
10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.
- 2. Remove all learning skills.
Like they never existed.
- 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.
Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.
That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.
Now, the question is: Would you be totally satisfied with this change?
Bad Idea.
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Jasdifa
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 10:10:00 -
[363]
Originally by: Kaya Divine Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.
Solution
- 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes
10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.
- 2. Remove all learning skills.
Like they never existed.
- 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.
Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.
That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.
Now, the question is: Would you be totally satisfied with this change?
good idea
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FALLINGSUNS
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Posted - 2010.07.03 11:30:00 -
[364]
it should be a great change nice
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FarmerCounter
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Posted - 2010.07.03 11:33:00 -
[365]
Don't agree.
Different learning plans show the difference of different characteristics and stragetics.
Although a 5-4 or 4-4 learning could be "the standard", "Is that good to learn xxx to lv.5" is still a topic worth to be argue.
hmm... If you think the learning skills block people from join this game. Boost the speed bonus could be a solution.
Just reduce the training time for noobs to get 5-4 or 4-4 then left them to make the "lv.5 decision".
We need some difference for even Counter-Strike still has different weapons.
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Yonlanda
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Posted - 2010.07.03 12:09:00 -
[366]
I believe the learning skills are all the evil sources. 
Kill them as soon as possible 
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MonicaMona
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 12:10:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Kaya Divine Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.
Solution
- 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes
10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.
- 2. Remove all learning skills.
Like they never existed.
- 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.
Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.
That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.
Now, the question is: Would you be totally satisfied with this change?
nice
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Dardol
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Posted - 2010.07.03 12:41:00 -
[368]
Not Supported
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Mantis wraith
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Posted - 2010.07.03 14:23:00 -
[369]
Originally by: FarmerCounter Don't agree. hmm... If you think the learning skills block people from join this game. Boost the speed bonus could be a solution.
Do keep in mind, as the OP has both stated and linked to in a fanfest video, that CCP devs have outright said that CCP HAS ALREADY COMMITTED TO ELIMINATING LEARNING SKILLS.
This thread is about HOW to go about doing that, NOT IF they should be gotten rid of.
Originally by: stoicfaux
The learning skills aren't the problem. The accelerated training time and two initial remaps are the problem.
I think you are forgetting one very important detail: The old characters actually started with a decent set of applicable skills. The new characters now start with almost nothing.
Without the accelerated learning time, new characters don't have much of a leg to stand on.
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Matalino
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 14:52:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Mantis wraith Do keep in mind, as the OP has both stated and linked to in a fanfest video, that CCP devs have outright said that CCP HAS ALREADY COMMITTED TO ELIMINATING LEARNING SKILLS.
No! CCP has said that some of them have regrets about introducing learning skills, and at that time they did not see an easy way of removing them. They have not committed to do anything about learning skills. For all that we know the more recent changes to the NPE may have resolved their concerns about learning skills, as it has reduced the time spent training them in half.
Originally by: Mantis wraith This thread is about HOW to go about doing that, NOT IF they should be gotten rid of.
This thread is for players to discuss their opinions regarding the future of learning skills. That includes voicing the opinion that they should be kept.
Originally by: Mantis wraith
Originally by: stoicfaux
The learning skills aren't the problem. The accelerated training time and two initial remaps are the problem.
I think you are forgetting one very important detail: The old characters actually started with a decent set of applicable skills. The new characters now start with almost nothing.
Without the accelerated learning time, new characters don't have much of a leg to stand on.
You seem to have forgetten that OLD players started with even fewer skills than current characters and did not have accellerated training times. Those characters stood well enough.
I would love for my army of alts to get an instant upgrade to 5/5 learning skills. I could abuse the extra training speed, especially if I decide to create some more alts. I would also love to redistribute my learning skill SP to some other skills so that I don't need to waste time boosting my characters' charisma or training at a less-than-optimal rate.
All-in-all I would come out well ahead if CCP follows the OP's suggestion. However, I suspect that it might be over-powered. On the other hand, I thought that 800k SP for a starting character was over-powered when it was first announced. I thought the same again when that was change to double-rate training for the first 1.6m SP. Looking back, I see that those changes have turned out alright. Therefore, I expect that the removal of learning skills would workout just fine as well.
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Jyaki o
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Posted - 2010.07.03 15:53:00 -
[371]
Yeah I like this idea. It's cool. I can't stand people arguing about different plans of learning skills. that's a waste of time.
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Slick O'Hara
The Sons of Anarchy.
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Posted - 2010.07.03 16:58:00 -
[372]
Agreed, new players experience of gameplay should be determined by their skill specialisations not some redundant learning skills. Any training that doesn't end in a new module, ship or module enhancement is really boring to do =\
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zjeffa
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Posted - 2010.07.03 17:06:00 -
[373]
I like this idea, very nice
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Zauric
Taconet
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Posted - 2010.07.03 17:25:00 -
[374]
As a new player that just started playing a month ago, I support this idea.
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Mr LaForge
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 18:12:00 -
[375]
Not supported
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Campfore
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Posted - 2010.07.03 19:57:00 -
[376]
Not Supported. Very very bad idea.
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.07.03 20:28:00 -
[377]
As a new player who is a little more than two months old, I do NOT support this idea.
/antisigned
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.03 21:02:00 -
[378]
Edited by: chatgris on 03/07/2010 21:02:33 As someone who's trained them 5/4 or 5/5 - get rid of this abomination called learning skills!
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Elton Murrow
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Posted - 2010.07.04 00:26:00 -
[379]
5/5 on three accounts.
Supported.
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King Amadeus
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 06:09:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 26/05/2010 15:30:28 Yes.
Learning skills are in my opinion unnecessary, and a deterrent to many people who want to try EVE for just a few weeks. CCP themselves have admitted that their introduction was a mistake, and it's never too late to clean up on them.
-------------------------
Ok, couple thoughts on this whole thing.
1. Personally, I think members of the council(CSM) actually voting here in the Assembly Hall on ideas presented to the council is a bit wrong. Your voting FOR Eve players, we as members don't really care about what you personally like. Your job as CSM is to represent Eve players as a whole. Not push your own agenda.
2. The whole +10 thing is a way to make new players equal with older players. What that will do is return ALL players to the same speed of skill learning, with modifications done per remapping. The fact that an experienced player gets to use 5,375,000 sp's to another area and the typical 'noob' get to use 1,256,000 sp's(or less) to another area is worthless in the long run. Mainly because at the end of the day, all characters are now at the same speed for learning. Which is something that I do not support.
It is being done as an Equalizer, which EVE has never been about. Eve is a dog eat dog game, and that is the way it is. if you want a feel good, game that is easy to play and everyone starts off the same, GO PLAY WORLD OF WARCRAFT.
KA
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Dahis39
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Posted - 2010.07.04 06:43:00 -
[381]
that's great!
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FarmerCounter
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 07:10:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Kaya Divine
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Kaya Divine
1. CCP wants to remove them 2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.
And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.
Dev blog / link / proof please or this is hearsay. I'm not considering their removal "final" because you say it is... sorry.
Linkage
This video does not say that they will, (they want to, they have decided to....babababa....) solve the problem by removal of learning skills,does it?
And this " Originally by: Kaya Divine
And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.
"
And anyone who wants to silence other solutions in this way " Originally by: Mantis wraith Do keep in mind, as the OP has both stated and linked to in a fanfest video, that CCP devs have outright said that CCP HAS ALREADY COMMITTED TO ELIMINATING LEARNING SKILLS.
This thread is about HOW to go about doing that, NOT IF they should be gotten rid of.
", you can stop now.
Not removal is not the wrong post here.
So let's back to the topic.
How can we make the learning system better by dealing with learing skills?
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Serpents smile
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 07:16:00 -
[383]
Not, and let me repeat that again, NOT supported.
|

Hainnz
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 08:04:00 -
[384]
Support |

Azzail
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 09:43:00 -
[385]
It's a good idea to remove them because they are annoying for new players nah I would go as far as to say they are annoying for all of us!
But heres a question what will happen to my 4-5M SP in learnings on nearly all of my 8 toons? I mean that counts for a total of ~36M SP. And they are not even close to have pay'd back what I've invested in them i.e SKILLTIME! So I would expect that if learnings get removed I see them reinbusted thought the system CCP intruduced in the last patch. Otherwise I'm against removing them because that would be like cheating me.. i.e taking something from my toons without any return after all I pay'd for that skilltime. 4-5M SP in learnings are around 2 month skilltime meaing 30Ç!
greets
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 09:48:00 -
[386]
Originally by: King Amadeus
2. The whole +10 thing is a way to make new players equal with older players. What that will do is return ALL players to the same speed of skill learning, with modifications done per remapping. Mainly because at the end of the day, all characters are now at the same speed for learning. Which is something that I do not support.
Absolutely! Having all players training at the same speed is completely ridiculous! Because, erm, stuff. And things.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.04 10:08:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: King Amadeus
2. The whole +10 thing is a way to make new players equal with older players. What that will do is return ALL players to the same speed of skill learning, with modifications done per remapping. Mainly because at the end of the day, all characters are now at the same speed for learning. Which is something that I do not support.
Absolutely! Having all players training at the same speed is completely ridiculous! Because, erm, stuff. And things.
Yeah! Because all the evil noobs trained Cybernetics to V and have spare half billion of ISK lying around. CCP, better don't dare to make the game more noob-friendly!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Alexkuku
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 12:17:00 -
[388]
Please ccp hurry up and do this!
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deadsilent
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 20:58:00 -
[389]
Not Supported Keep the skills CCP |

Valerie Burn
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 20:59:00 -
[390]
Not supported! |
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Hadon Arelus
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 21:02:00 -
[391]
I do not see how your Idea will help eve. Not Supported |

Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 22:03:00 -
[392]
/Supported. Learning skills are part of the problem for newer players (3 months training learning skills before you even leave station???). Dump em and reimburse the players for their wasted time.
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SammyullJackson
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 22:09:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Bomberlocks (3 months training learning skills before you even leave station???)
this is funny because its a blatant fallacy
but okay, keep believing what you want to
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Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Hiigaran Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.07.05 01:10:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Kaya Divine Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.
Solution
- 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes
10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.
- 2. Remove all learning skills.
Like they never existed.
- 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.
Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.
That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.
Now, the question is: Would you be totally satisfied with this change?
I'm with the crowd that says if you're going to remove learning skills then you only reimburse the SP put into the learning skills and nothing else. Why should you get +10 to your attributes after the skills are gone. Strip the skills and drop everyone to the base level stats instead. That would even the playing field just as easily with less concern about giving all the older players some sort of rate adjusted SP bonus for what should have been this supposed +10 the whole time.
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WillRain
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 03:13:00 -
[395]
Supported, Learning system is the worst game design. it kicks lots of new player from EVE.
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Star P'ergish
Minmatar DELUXE INVEST
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 04:13:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
this If you donÆt care where you are, you ainÆt lost. |

Tarasina
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 05:44:00 -
[397]
I vote YES! Remove learning skills and imburse the invested amount of SkillPoints
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 06:43:00 -
[398]
Originally by: Nnamuachs
I'm with the crowd that says if you're going to remove learning skills then you only reimburse the SP put into the learning skills and nothing else. Why should you get +10 to your attributes after the skills are gone. Strip the skills and drop everyone to the base level stats instead. That would even the playing field just as easily with less concern about giving all the older players some sort of rate adjusted SP bonus for what should have been this supposed +10 the whole time.
Oh, this again. Obviously most people don't like the base training speed since they pick up the learning skills in the first place. Its just that not everyone likes the means for acquiring it.
Is the proposed solution something for nothing? Absolutely. They could look at alternate means of new players "earning" the learning skills, such as gaining them automatically with time played or on finishing the tutorial etc, but its not strictly necessary. Ultimately CCP will decide how fast they want newbies to advance in the game in the beginning, if that's faster then they do currently, so be it. If a few veterans can't handle this, tough.
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KOSTAS CALDARIANOS
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 10:51:00 -
[399]
Edited by: KOSTAS CALDARIANOS on 05/07/2010 10:54:18 Edited by: KOSTAS CALDARIANOS on 05/07/2010 10:52:14 Let me propose a solution and you can tell me what you think. It really is not that well thought so any input good or bad would be appreciated. Generally from what i can understand the problem with learning skills is the time you have to put into training them, especially the second set. The first one includes only rank 1 skills so it's not so tragic. As far as the second one goes i would propose a change from rank 3 to rank 2. Now you have two categories of people (maybe 3 including the ones that don't want to train them at all): 1) the ones who are reluctant to train the second learning skills to 5 because of the days they would put into and as a consequence they feel disadvantaged. Training a rank 2 skill on the other hand is more tolerable. 2) the other ones who have already trained them could get the remaining SP back but in a way that would be fair(-looking) to other players. Get some SP per month, for say 6 months, until you use all the remaining SP (about 1,25 mil) or get faster training times for the same amount of SP.
This way you don't need to eliminate the learning skills at this point and the players that didn't train them won't feel at a great disadvantage against the other who would be taking back 1,25 mil SP (compared to 5,3 if they eliminate the learning skills altogether)...
Tell me what you think... Cheers
PS. i don't know if someone suggested the same thing again.if so ignore it...
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Eli Porter
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 17:45:00 -
[400]
All supported but the 3rd point. SP reimbursement should be done with the new SP injection system.
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zylch3
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 18:04:00 -
[401]
Originally by: Eli Porter All supported but the 3rd point. SP reimbursement should be done with the new SP injection system.
The author's solution was before the SP injection system was put in place. I'm with the crowd that thinks CCP was testing out mass injection of SP with the 100k bonus.
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Amerilia
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 18:16:00 -
[402]
Can¦t find anything to disagree, so I agree
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Captain Megadeath
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 18:44:00 -
[403]
Worst idea ever,
NOT SUPPORTED
This is Eve Online, not Hello Kitty Online.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails my name actually is short for catherine
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Tombstone Frank
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 19:22:00 -
[404]
Originally by: Captain Megadeath Worst idea ever
Learning skill were maybe.
Supported. |

Rebal 88
INGEN Industries The Kadeshi
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 20:31:00 -
[405]
I love the idea! |

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 20:32:00 -
[406]
Edited by: Obsidian Hawk on 05/07/2010 20:33:19
NOT supported
Everyone must suffer through the learning skills.
There are no free hand outs in eve.
Asking for free attributes is like begging for isk.
Plus its not that hard to stagger learning skills with conventional skills. 2 learning, 2 combat, 2 learning, 2 other skills. There is a huge balance and it all works out nicely.
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JurassicDragon
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 20:35:00 -
[407]
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FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Crimson Legion
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 21:22:00 -
[408]
Edited by: FireT on 05/07/2010 21:22:38 Even though I only began playing in 2008. I still think it would be nice to have these changes.
Yes I have maxed out learning skills. But if they prevent newer players from enjoying the game to the fullest, similarly to me now, I think the original ideas in this post are great.
Agreed and signed and hope newer players can get the benefit of these changes too. 
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 21:28:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
NOT supported
Everyone must suffer through the learning skills.
So many masochists playing Eve it seems.
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Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 21:45:00 -
[410]
Originally by: Takseen So many masochists playing Eve it seems.
It would fit the whole "cold, dark, harsh universe" that Eve (used) to be a few years ago. 
|
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Dr Halley
Amarr Viziam
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 22:54:00 -
[411]
HECK, YEAH.
"4 of 5 Doctors agree that 0.0 is good for your health." |

Vargas Blackburn
|
Posted - 2010.07.05 23:50:00 -
[412]
Edited by: Vargas Blackburn on 05/07/2010 23:55:53 /signed
I approve of this change. It will allow newbies to get right to the interesting skills and allow veterans several million SP to do w/e they want with.
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Omish Dave
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 00:19:00 -
[413]
I support this idea. 
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Clovermite
Kamikaze Fleet Command Kamikaze Project
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 02:40:00 -
[414]
Edited by: Clovermite on 06/07/2010 02:40:24
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
There are no free hand outs in eve.
Asking for free attributes is like begging for isk.
Not to sunshine on your stormy parade, but begging for isk actually works sometimes.
In fact, I once had a player give me 10 mil when I lost my ship...and I didn't even ask for it.
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Royaldo
Gallente Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
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Posted - 2010.07.06 03:10:00 -
[415]
Not supported.
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Loi Shaini
Caldari Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 03:49:00 -
[416]
/not-supported.
If the crybabies want to play a sookie game, go and play Sims and you and your boyfriends can dress each other up.
CCP have not mentioned that they wish to remove them - just the crowd who drive around in the Whaaaaaambulance.
Now get away from our game you sook. 
|

Skid Skahular
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 09:17:00 -
[417]
Remove Learning Skills!
Originally by: Loi Shaini
[...] CCP have not mentioned that they wish to remove them [...]
Oh Really? You'd be wrong! They've wanted to remove them for years, but didn't have a satisfactory means for doing so. They do now.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=298143&page=3
Quote: [...]Thus, there is ample room for the statement that "elite" learning skills will benefit them more, since most of them already have the prerequisites to train them off the bat when they come out, while, say a new player, just gets more learning skills the they have to learn to be long term competitive.
And you see, this is the real point why it's the last thing to do. We dont WANT more "mandatory" skills which give you no direct benefit. If anything, we'd like to exterminate the damn things.[...]
There's also links floating around to a video of CCP saying they want to remove Learning skills. |

Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 12:42:00 -
[418]
It is clear that this is a divisive issue within the player base.
Perhaps I can offer a distinct perspective, as a CSM who has now had his baptism-in-lava in Iceland.
The key thing to understand is that for issues like this, what drives CCP decisionmaking is simple: customer retention.
That is, they are looking for things that will turn more clueless noobs into bitter old vet crack-w****s, while at the same time not disgusting the bitter old vet crack-w****s so much they will switch to another drug.
When it comes to creating new crack-w****s, learning skills are the worst feature in EVE. They actively drive noobs away from the game, because noobs are all about instant gratification -- they want the "rush" of a new drug -- and learning skills delay that. The bitter old vet crack-w****s (hereinafter BOVCWs), on the other hand, are all about getting their regular fix so they don't "get sick".
Much of the argument against removing learning skills boils down to this: "when I was a noob, I had to **** a lot of **** to get my crack, and the new b*****s should have to do the same thing."
Well, the BOVCWs need to get over that, and the reason is simple: more new crack-w****s = more money for pimp-daddy CCP = more resources put into developing tastier crack (at least, if CSM has anything to say about it!).
Now, that said, here's my 2 isk about how to implement it:
* Kill the learning skills.
* Respec all skills by +10 (5+4 + 10% = 9.9, close enough)
* Leave the implants as they are.
* Refund all accumulated learning skill skillpoints. As a sop to the hyper-optimizers, give a small bonus to people who actually trained advanced skills to V (such as an extra 10% for points spent training above IV on an advanced learning skill).
* If possible, provide one extra respec -- or at least, reset everyone's respec cooldown.
* Improve the interface for allocating bonus skillpoints - even a "allocate bonus points to train this skill to next level" right-click would be enough.
* Run the numbers and determine the optimum initial skill settings for noobs, based on the skills they have historically trained (not including the learning skills, of course!). Use these for noobs.
* Add a new reward for completing the NPE - a small pool of bonus skillpoints (BOVCWs would get this as well during the changeover). This is, to my mind, a crucial element -- you give them a big hit of the true EVE crack to get them started on the path to BOVCW-dom. I personally would do this instead of double-rate training.
I would like to see more discussion on this issue, but I want to go on record as saying that if I don't read any show-stoppers, I am going to raise this as a CSM proposal -- and I welcome co-sponsors (that means you, Sok!)
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Cyrus Doul
Cosmic Vacum Cleaners
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 14:23:00 -
[419]
Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 06/07/2010 14:26:42 what is a sop?
also the 10% is important only if they keep remaps.
I like the extra remap idea too. 2 million sp though not alot is enough for some people to use that extra map to polish off some arcane skill set then go back to their old map if they still have their old map.
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Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 14:36:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Cyrus Doul what is a sop?
Something given to pacify or quiet, or as a bribe.
For example, "CCP gave the CSMs an extra trip to Iceland as a sop."
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician
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|

Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 14:44:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
I would like to see more discussion on this issue, but I want to go on record as saying that if I don't read any show-stoppers, I am going to raise this as a CSM proposal -- and I welcome co-sponsors (that means you, Sok!)
I'm gonna send you a crate of beer if you pull this off.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 15:04:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Jasdemi I'm gonna send you a crate of beer if you pull this off.
Well, TBH, given that I don't drink, you are better off promising to send the beer to the devs who do the actual work...
...as a sop, of course. 
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician
|

Kauschovar
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 16:49:00 -
[423]
Edited by: Kauschovar on 06/07/2010 16:50:16 Let's do it!
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Spades Slick
Caldari Rookies Academy Elite The Compass
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 17:02:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Much of the argument against removing learning skills boils down to this: "when I was a noob, I had to **** a lot of **** to get my crack, and the new b*****s should have to do the same thing."
You deem yourself a representative, and then you put out generalized garbage like this? You couldn't more clearly be cementing yourself on the anti-learning side, and have thrown objectivity out the window.
A small number of pro-learning people hold the above position, yes, but most support the skills because they add a strategy to the game. Cry all you want, but learning skills at 5/5 IS NOT NORMAL. Everyone anti-learning says "WELL IF YOU WANT TO PLAY THE GAME THEN THEY'RE PRETTY MUCH MANDATORY." That's where most of the problem lies; new players are told by all these bitter old vets (who are bitter because they also convinced themselves that they had to max learning skills, NOT because of the 'back in my day' syndrome you suggest) that the ONLY way to play EVE is to train learning skills right away; and then of course, the anti crowd exaggerates this and says "Yeah staring at a bar isn't my idea of fun." You know WHY tier 2 learning books are so expensive? Because they were only ever meant to be attained after a while of playing (you know, when you could make that kind of money), and added in to your training regimen to make all those rank 10+ skills go that much easier to reach. The net lost time from not doing tier 2 skills for, say, a month or so is within the realm of a few hours. Don't believe me? I put together a one-month plan for a Minmatar newbie, with basic and standard certs mixed and training up to Battlecruiser. Time before learning skills? 17 days. Time after learning skills? 12 days. Time after removing tier 2 learning skills EVEMon told me to put in? 12.5 days.
That's 12 hours' difference.
Now, while many people would min/max and say "THAT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE!!!1!1", consider the fact that I haven't yet done neural remapping to see how I could make it better still, nor will most new players have learning skills tier 2 purchasable. And why should they? Nor are they required to sit in a station all day (detractors' claims to the contrary) -- takes all of one hour each to put some points into basic skills, and then the new players can go do tutorials while their skills level up, make enough to buy learning books, BUY learning books (tier 1), go get them, add them to the queue, and do it strategically -- "okay, I wanna grind my core competency first, so I'll do intelligence"; "I want to be able to shoot stuff, so I'll get my perception and will skills up; then I can jump right into ship skilling afterwards."; and yes, even "I want to make sure I have my learning skills, so I'll 2 days just letting them level up (note: how long the learning skills EVEMon recommended would take alone) and then start other stuff."
What the anti crowd always seems to neglect (or conveniently forget) is that there is a LOT of waiting for a new player. I know that, while to players who have been playing for a while it isn't a long time, the day and a half or two days or whatever that Frigate IV took when I trained it two months ago seemed to take forever. And you know what, looking back, I'm 100% okay with that, because that's a drop in the bucket compared to the rank 8s that I'm eying right now. The anti-learning people aren't; they simply want to minimize the wait, not because of any real concern for the new players (or if there is, it's in a small number of their population), but because they just want more, faster.
Trebor, while I appreciate you expressing your interest in serving your CSM duties, I ask that you take a good hard look at this and other threads where debate has arisen, and step back from any personal feelings you have. Consider the arguments coming from my, umm, colleagues and I. Think about whether you're serving the majority, or just the most vocal side.
|

Lisa Waen
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 19:04:00 -
[425]
Dunno, I think that a +10attrib, +10% would be too much.
Rather a +7 attrib, +8% would be better (4+3 attrib skills and lvl 4 learning)
A full reimbursement of SP spent on learning skills would be good.
Here's where it gets more complicated:
A pro-rated SP pool is given to all players based on the +7,+8% training model, adjusted for cybernetic bonuses . In other words, the guy who never trained learning skills and has been training other skills will get a huge bonus in SP, bringing him up to the level of what a character who trained to +7,+8% would be at.
The guy who skill trained all attributes from +7 to +10 and trained learning from +8% to +10% or only gets bonuses to skills trained before that time. He would be reasonably close to what his skillpoints should be anyhow, if not more.
The current toons who are maxed out with learning skills will slow down some (-3attrib, -2%) post fix, but will not lose anything already trained. The toons who are at +7attrib, +8% will stay pretty much even. The toons who minimally trained learning gets a big catchup boost.
Everyone gets some "free" SP, except for brand new toons, who will never have to slog through learning skills(reward enough imo)
Overall effects: Base training times speed up for almost everyone, new players get to train useful skills outta the box, older players who trained learning skills get reimbursed for wasted time, older players who minimally trained learning get a big boost(really how many of these are out there?) I think that overall the idea is great, just needs some changes to it> Supported
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Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 19:15:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Spades Slick You deem yourself a representative, and then you put out generalized garbage like this? You couldn't more clearly be cementing yourself on the anti-learning side, and have thrown objectivity out the window.
Just because I'm a CSM doesn't mean I can't have strong opinions about the game -- and yes, I think that the learning skills are net-negative for EVE. However, please don't assume that I can't be objective. I have been a practicing skeptic for all of my adult life, so if you can come up with a decent argument that a position I hold is incorrect, I am honor-bound to accept your argument and revise my opinion.
Furthermore, don't let my tendency to leaven my arguments with humor give you the impression that I don't take things seriously.
With that in mind...
Quote: A small number of pro-learning people hold the above position, yes, but most support the skills because they add a strategy to the game.
I understand and appreciate this position. I will go further -- I agree that it adds a strategy to the game.
The real question, however, is this: "Is what learning skills add to the game worth what it costs the game?"
In particular, do learning skills put off noobs, who we all want to become hopelessly addicted crack-w****s like ourselves? (after all, misery loves company!) If so, they are a huge negative for the game as a whole. I am of the opinion that there is significant evidence that this is the case -- and if I am wrong about this, then most of the argument for killing learning skills is blown out of the water.
Quote: I put together a one-month plan for a Minmatar newbie, with basic and standard certs mixed and training up to Battlecruiser. Time before learning skills? 17 days. Time after learning skills? 12 days. Time after removing tier 2 learning skills EVEMon told me to put in? 12.5 days.
The counter-argument is that learning skills are cumulative; the earlier you get them boosted; yeah, you might only save a few hours getting to BC, but the deeper you intend to go in the game, the more you need them.
Furthermore, even without EVEmon, the reasonably optimal learning skills training plan is pretty obvious. The strategy aspect of learning skills is not "if" but "when" you will get everything but the charisma skills to V/III or V/IV.
The problem with if/when decisions is that for a noob, they present an opportunity to delay gratification. This is very bad. The key to noob retention is instant gratification. They are noobs, baby eve players; they want it right now. IMHO the double-rate training was CCP's first iteration on addressing this issue.
Quote: ...the day and a half or two days or whatever that Frigate IV took when I trained it two months ago seemed to take forever. And you know what, looking back, I'm 100% okay with that, because that's a drop in the bucket compared to the rank 8s that I'm eying right now.
I somewhat agree with you. However, keep in mind you and I are not representative of the typical noob. Most noobs stop playing; we are the atypical noobs who did not stop playing. So we have to be careful projecting our own feelings onto the typical noob.
Finally, from a purely tactical standpoint (in the CSM minigame I get to play), whether you believe the statements that "CCP wants to get rid of learning skills" or not, it makes sense to me to present them with a player-designed option.
If they don't think learning skills affect player retention, they'll stick it in the backlog to rot.
If on the other hand they do want to make a change, wouldn't you prefer them to implement something the players have debated? One that has some benefits for everyone?
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician
|

Cifese
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 19:31:00 -
[427]
I do not support this.
In the interests of arguing the point, the only "fair" thing to do if the learning skills (and the points they granted) are removed is to grant back the players the actual skill points applied to learning skills. No additional attribute points, no speed to training boosts - just raw skill points (much like the downtime gift) to be redistributed as the player wishes. Sure, this doesn't provide anything to those who haven't trained learning skills, or new players - but it levels the field and removes the learning skills but not the time spent on them.
For those who are all about the fear that new pilots don't like training learning skills, this resolves that issue. No learning skills = no "delay" in training other skills.
For those who did not choose to train learning skills, it does nothing for them. They did not spend the time or skillpoints or ISK, therefore they would have no argument for reimbursement.
For those who trained learning skills, the bonuses they provided are history (as attributes would revert to non-learning skill levels), but the actual skillpoints are returned to a general pool so the ISK and time spent on those skills maintains some value.
All this proposal should do is reduce the advantage provided by learning skills going forward.
I still don't support it.
|

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 22:09:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
NOT supported
Everyone must suffer through the learning skills.
So many masochists playing Eve it seems.
Well yeah, I started back in 2006. After the tutorial I had, 100k isk, a +1 implant and an atron. That was it! I didnt have this bull**** 2x training time up to 1.6 million sp. I never got all this free stuff for starting the game. I just got that and a good luck dont die from ccp and fellow players.
So I dont see what the real problem is. Using this 2x training time to in the begining to train learning skills is more than enough compensation. Instead fo 25 days to train all the basic learnings from lvl 4 to lvl 5 it is now 13. (Assumption 4 days per level 5 skill.)
Now CCP's goal is payer retention right? well why not up the 2x training time to 2 million sp, or adjust char creation to have more learning skills. say all the basics to lvl 2?
But no, removing learnign skills is bad.
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stoicfaux
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 22:38:00 -
[429]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 06/07/2010 22:39:29
Originally by: Spades Slick Cry all you want, but learning skills at 5/5 IS NOT NORMAL. Everyone anti-learning says "WELL IF YOU WANT TO PLAY THE GAME THEN THEY'RE PRETTY MUCH MANDATORY." That's where most of the problem lies; new players are told by all these bitter old vets (who are bitter because they also convinced themselves that they had to max learning skills, NOT because of the 'back in my day' syndrome you suggest) that the ONLY way to play EVE is to train learning skills right away
It's "mandatory" to train them up front because of the accelerated training. 5/4 learning skills can pay for themselves in just three months...
Example:
Alice and Bob are new characters. Both remap their attributes to perception 12 and intelligence 12 (for flying and fitting skills.) Alice uses her accelerated training bonus to train flying/fitting skills immediately. Bob decides to train the learning skills up first.
If Bob takes 14 days to train the learning skills to 4/4/4 (basic to IV, advanced to IV, and learning to IV,) he will catch up to Alice in less two months. Meaning that in two months, Bob will have all the skills that Alice has, plus 4/4/4 in learning skills.
If Bob takes 42 days to train the learning skills to 5/4/5, then in just three months he have all the skills that Alice has, plus 5/4/5 in learning skills. (If Bob had used both remaps, he could have gotten the 42 days down to 33.5 days and then remapped to 12/12 in perc/int.)
Three months for 5/4/5 to pay for itself? You would have to be crazy not to train the damn learning skills for the first month.
It's not the learning skills that are the problem, it's the accelerated training bonus and two free remaps that forces/encourages newbies to front load the learning skills.
If you really want to torpedo the 'give everyone +10 attributes' proposal then petition to have the learning skills unaffected by the accelerated training bonus and only provide one remap to newbies.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
|

Kendra Coldera
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 23:00:00 -
[430]
I would approve of this changes. Though it would not necessarily have to be done by a learning speed boost but by the new system they implemented. |
|

Zverofaust
Gallente Locus Industries
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 23:24:00 -
[431]
The strategic aspect of Learning skills many pro-learners support is already duplicated by the prospect of neural remapping and implants. Both have tangible risks and rewards; in the first, the reward is increased training time for certain skills while the risk is slower training time should you train any non-spec'd skills -- in the second, implants give an increase in training time but at a hefty ISK cost.
The only tangible risk for learning skills is of new players deciding they don't want to have to spend the first month of the game training learning skills and not playing, particularly when the free trial time lasts for a shorter period than it would actually take to train these skills.
Point being there are already other gameplay features in place that players can manipulate to get faster or shorter training times, none of which are nearly as frustrating or new player-impeding as Learning skills.
___________________________________________ The Hero of Kamela The Terror of Tararan The Executioner of Ezzara |

Dina Wells
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 07:23:00 -
[432]
I have all learning skills fully trained, and would be totally satisfied with this solution. |

Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 10:38:00 -
[433]
Learnings, strategic? WTF is strategic about not leaving the station for 2+ months. |

Hinkledolph
Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 11:30:00 -
[434]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
You can make the same analogy with two graduates given money û one puts it into savings/investments and one spends it on stuff.
Yes, but when the second graduate runs out of money, he doesn't usually kill himself.
You can not reliably compare advancement in real life to advancement in MMOs. Believe me, I've tried; By god have I tried. The fact of the matter is that people are far more willing to leave MMOs than they're willing to leave real life.
When made to choose between the lesser of two evils, an MMO player will leave.
Removing depth can be bad. But it is not unconditionally bad.
Learning skills are not worth the damage the cause.
I suppose that's true if your cause is to increase the number of players at a faster rate than Eve has been growing.
Bearing in mind that Eve is one of the most stable success stories in the MMO world and still grows, I'm not sure that should be our concern.
My "cause" would be keeping it true to the complicated, pain-in-the-ass, game that got us all hooked in the first place. Learning skills are part of that picture - and removing them damages the cause.
100 % Correct. Everyone has a choice. |

Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 13:00:00 -
[435]
I have been playing for over four years now. When I first started, the Learning skill were already in the game. As history has presented, the number of players and subscriptions has risen as the game became more popular. Yet for some unknown reason, the new players today just can not cope with the Learning skills and want them removed with the stipulation that the bonuses offered from the skills are freely granted. How did this game survive, much less expand when these same daunting skills have been in the game for so long, ~inflicting~ their ills upon the player base?
CCP has gotten softer over the years in my opinion. Before the probing changes, exploration was a dedicated profession with high risks and potentially grand rewards. The probes were broken into specific areas of expertise with distinct sets of continuously smaller range, but stronger signal probes required to lock down a target. The probes were like ammo - once launched, the probes were consumed. CCP changed the whole profession into a simpler task to allow everyone to go exploring. All the probes were converted into a singular type that was also a reusable probe. Those that had blueprints researched for the older style of probes were told tough luck - no compensation. Those luckless players were not greater than the new majority pushed into finding wormholes.
Other skills over the years had their requirements lowered to allow more people to gain those skills faster, including the first tier Learning skills. The skill queue was a debated topic for a while before CCP implemented that program. The pro-queue players rallied that it was unfair that extended or unannounced downtime took away from them changing skills. So many years later, CCP has an extended downtime and gives away skill points. Going soft again...
With the release of Dominion, the lag in null security space went off the charts. While I do not have actually numbers, I would harbor a good guess that a majority of players in those regions of space are older veterans. And I would guess that their overall numbers are less than those that hang out in Empire space (author included ). Another expansion was released with the intent that brand new players can start messing up planets. The lag continued, and again in my opinion, CCP not worried about the older veterans since they been with the game for quite some time - we're not liable to throw it all away. But has anyone looked into the character bazaar forum lately and noticed a good number of null sec pilots offered for sale?
CCP is expanding to create Dust 514 for the console, which is usually stereotyped as the younger crowd with the twitch reflexes. Console shelf life is measured in months, not years. Long ago CCP stated to have a ten year plan for Eve and with the eighth alliance tournament behind us... you can do the math.
So will CCP remove the Learning skills and grant new players everything on a silver platter to gain those subscription numbers and profits? Of course they will since we crusty old veterans are probably more a hindrance while we've already profited them greatly. Instead of CCP worrying about how to entice the veterans with new goals to parallel our expanded skill point totals, CCP can sit back and the new players "work" their way up to where we are today. By then, the ten year plan will be completed and CCP can then concentrate upon their new release - probably the World of Darkness game with White Wolf as backing materials. And since CCP gained the goodwill of all the new players granted life on a silver platter, their new game will have a solid starting base.
And we crusty old bitter veterans - our total numbers would not dent the bottom line if we played or not.
My humble opinion, of course, - Guttripper...
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 14:41:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Guttripper I have been playing for over four years now. When I first started, the Learning skill were already in the game. As history has presented, the number of players and subscriptions has risen as the game became more popular. Yet for some unknown reason, the new players today just can not cope with the Learning skills and want them removed with the stipulation that the bonuses offered from the skills are freely granted. How did this game survive, much less expand when these same daunting skills have been in the game for so long, ~inflicting~ their ills upon the player base?
CCP has gotten softer over the years in my opinion. <snip examples of such>
The game has had an atrocious UI all those years as well, I guess we should leave that unchanged also since subscriptions still grew during that period? What you've said in your post is true, but its hardly a good way to argue to keep an old system in place.
Any decision CCP makes will likely be based on their estimates of how many potential players are sufficiently put off by the learning skill system that they don't subscribe, vs the number of players that would quit if it was removed.
|

Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 15:15:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Takseen The game has had an atrocious UI all those years as well, I guess we should leave that unchanged also since subscriptions still grew during that period? What you've said in your post is true, but its hardly a good way to argue to keep an old system in place.
Any decision CCP makes will likely be based on their estimates of how many potential players are sufficiently put off by the learning skill system that they don't subscribe, vs the number of players that would quit if it was removed.
Oh, I agree the interface needs work. But based upon Ankhesentapemkah's blog, CCP has (supposedly) stated:
"Unfortunately, Nathan, CCPs producer, became very defensive and attempted to justify CCPs development process. He also said that CCP cannot commit to big issues right now, as a lot of their developers are tied down building Incarna and Dust."
(skip.)
"The CSM met with the team responsible for the User Interface during this afternoon. The CSM stated that the UI is the first impression players get of EVE, and that many players are overwhelmed by it, or annoyed by the poor usability. Overhauling the UI would help retaining a lot of the new players, so the CSM claimed. Disappointingly enough, CCP does not want to commit to a UI overhaul. The CSM proceeded to list smaller problems in the current UI, which were noted by the dev team."
(skip.)
"Unfortunately, the CSM heard time and again that CCP simply does not have any resources to commit to anything. This frustrated the CSM, which said that some of the issues have been brought up by every CSM to date (Corp Roles review, Alliances in FW), and were not closer to being addressed than they were two years ago. CCP developers said that many of their own issues have not made it in-game either and called the CSM to be realistic. The CSM openly questioned their purpose at this point, as they said there was little point in raising player issues if they were never going to get addressed, no matter how small they were or how highly they prioritized them, as CCP would just run off doing its own thing."
-----
So Takseen, as much as you and I can debate points back and forth (even though you are *cough* Gallente *cough*) , until CCP has a commitment to address players' points, it does seem they will have their own agenda to follow. And that agenda seems to be to snag the potentially new players gained from Dust and Incarna. I doubt these two new platforms of players are going to worry whether the Learning skills remain or not since I would think Dust will be like any other shooter (no stats) and Incarna will not be affected by attributes according to CCP.
So ummm, been watching the World Cup? Germany looks pretty strong this year... 
|

MNagy
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 15:29:00 -
[438]
If everyone is so worried about 'new players' just skilling up in learning and not playing the game.
Why not just put a skill pre-requisite for any learning skills. Something like 5million skill points required to do any of them.
Problem solved. They play the game. Its a bonus to get after you are commited to a game as extra skills.
I do not support the original change. I like learning skills - its part of the sandbox. Do them, or do not do them.
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Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 15:43:00 -
[439]
Supported lets have newbies play for their first few months instead of just "playing counterstrike for a month" as Soundwave said at fanfest :P
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Algathas
United Amarr Templar Legion Fidelas Constans
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 20:30:00 -
[440]
not supported.
No-one needs to train the learning skills to 5/5 right off the bat. It is their choice to be bored. When I started, I balanced learning skills with the training of my normal skills as well. I had fun and did not care that I lost a couple of hours here and there to not having the leet learning skills right from the start, instead I was killing things and mining rocks.
Currently I have them at 4/4 and guess what? I have some plans in evemon right now that show almost no gain in training them to level V even with a year of training planned in advance!
So the complainers must be the ones that thought it would be good to train them to level V to save a couple minutes of training out of a year, and now want their SP back for their bad decision.
What really needs to happen, is new players should be taught to balance their training rather than sitting in the station training things to level V. The game is what you make of it, if you want to sit in station and spin out of boredom you will, if you want to have fun you will, learning skills do not change that. |
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Amarok Tonrar
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 20:41:00 -
[441]
I'm not going to read through this rather lengthy thread so my apology in advance if this was covered already.
Personally, I support the removal of the learning skills. I wouldn't be surprised in fact if the method CCP used recently to reimburse us for the extended downtime was a program created specifically to do away with them. Although that's just hopeful theory crafting. Better that than they just making them go poof. ôsorry guys!ö 
Personally, I say give those who trained the learning skills the SP they've invested in that category to do with as they please, just as they did with the gifted SP recently. From there on, base the attributes off of whatever that player has their attributes mapped to. Whether everyone gets the points you'd gained from having all the learning skills at 5, or those points disappear entirely, is completely irrelevant imo and I really donÆt see the point of arguing it. Either way, every one is equal across the board. Your attributes and how fast you learn are then solely based on how they are mapped as well as the implants you have injected.
The ôolderö players complain itÆs not fair. That they invested all that time in learning those skills. That itÆs another good level of separation between players or whatever your argument may be. At first, that may sound all well and good and a solid argumentà..but nit and grit is that itÆs total BS and nothing but pure tears. YouÆve played for so many odd years. YouÆve stuck with it through hundreds of other changes. YouÆre still here even with the game crushing lag. I too have trained those skills. I too have seen the benefits of doing so. And I too have seen the complete and utter uselessness of having to sit for those some odd days training skills that nearly everyone, even CCP, agree was a horrible idea.
The thing many of you seem to forget is that CCP is a company. And as a company, like the ones you all work for or own, theyÆre in the business to make money, to turn a profit and to continue to grow and develop. If a market test was done to see if the learning skills had any effect on new players sticking with the game and discovered it did, then you can bet your butt theyÆre going to do away with them, whether you like it or not. Because frankly, money speaks louder than you. If thatÆs a problem with youà.well HTFU. Personally, anything that helps to increase the interest and popularity of Eve is, imo, a good thing!
Frankly though, I donÆt see the problem. With this idea, you get your SP and in essence your time back that you spent training them. YouÆre also still ahead of the newer players and will continue to be so because weÆd all be on a level playing field in terms of training time. If a newer player passes you in gunnery because your attributes are mapped elsewhere and that bothers you, well then thatÆs your own fault because YOU mapped your attributes the way you did.
|

stoicfaux
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 21:14:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Algathas So the complainers must be the ones that thought it would be good to train them to level V to save a couple minutes of training out of a year, and now want their SP back for their bad decision.
A couple of minutes? Try two months knocked off the first year (or 16 months of training in the first year.)
Assuming that I haven't borked the math, a newbie who burns a remap can pay off the 5/5/5 skills in up to eight months (not counting implants.) According to Evemon it takes 113 days (3.8 months) to train to 5/5/5.) With 5/5/5 skills you'll have a 194% learning rate (not considering implants,) which means that for the last four months of the year, you'll get in nearly eight months of training.
The Math: Max Base Rate: 15 + 5/2 = 19.5 skill points per minute. This is the max rate you can train with no learning skills.
According to Evemon, it takes 113 days (3.8 months) to get to 5/5/5 (remap + 1.6M training speed bonus)
5/5/5 Rate: ((15+10) + (9+10)/2 ) * 1.1 = 37.95 skill points/min
37.95 / 19.5 = 1.946. The 5/5/5 Rate produces 194.6% of the skill points per time unit versus the Max Base Rate.
How long will it take for the 5/5/5 Rate to catch up to the Max Base Rate?
a) 1.946x - 113 = 1.0x + 1.0 * 113 "1.946x - 113": This is the 5/5/5 side of the equation. x is days. 1.946 is the training rate. -113 is because we spent 113 days training 5/5/5.
"1.0x + 1.0 * 113": This is the no learning skills side. x is days. We have a 113 day head start training at 1.0 base rate.
b) 1.946x - x = 226 c) .946x = 226 d) x = 226 / .946 e) x = 238.9 days
So about eight months for 5/5/5 to pay off in the worst case, not considering implants.
If you're outside of the accelerated training bonus you're looking at 130 days to get to 5/5/5 with a remap. Payoff is in: 260 / .946 = 274.8 days or a little over 9 months, worst case and no implants.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
|

yani dumyat
The 23rd Sense
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Posted - 2010.07.07 21:59:00 -
[443]
Edited by: yani dumyat on 07/07/2010 21:59:32 Supported, partially because I don't believe training skills add much in the way of strategy or depth to the game but mainly because I'm looking after number one. 2 million SP to spend and more noobs to kill sounds like win win to me. _______
Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel. |

JASON W0RTHING
The Devolved
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 04:35:00 -
[444]
Absolutely supported. My friend wasn't very happy when I told him he had to train learning skills to at least 4/4 to even be competitive. He htfued and is still playing but it was a boring 45 days for him.
Originally by: CCP Shadow What is thy bidd -- Wait. This thread, I have an irresistible urge to lock it for "being related to neither crime nor punishment."
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Nele'B
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 11:09:00 -
[445]
supported |

marinko26210
Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 11:37:00 -
[446]
Not supported.
1. All attributes to 30. 2. Amount of SP's in learning skills should be redistributed by pilots them selfs.
For me this is only acceptable solution to this problem.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 13:53:00 -
[447]
Originally by: marinko26210 Not supported.
1. All attributes to 30. 2. Amount of SP's in learning skills should be redistributed by pilots them selfs.
For me this is only acceptable solution to this problem.
Either a troll or a person with a very low IQ. I hope it's the first option.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

R053
U-208 Blade.
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 14:17:00 -
[448]
I do not want to see the learning skills removed, definitely not, I like their role and I've invested a lot of time and SP in it (all maxxed) and now to see some1 who hasn't bothered training learning skills at all to have the same atributes as I do is ridiculous (no offence).
There is a point to these skills, don't remove them.
However, if you do, yes, Kaya Divine's suggestion is good. EVE Never Fades |

Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 14:51:00 -
[449]
Originally by: R053 I do not want to see the learning skills removed, definitely not, I like their role and I've invested a lot of time and SP in it (all maxxed) and now to see some1 who hasn't bothered training learning skills at all to have the same atributes as I do is ridiculous (no offence).
There is a point to these skills, don't remove them.
However, if you do, yes, Kaya Divine's suggestion is good.
What point? Driving new players away who got a brain and don't want to waste their 3 months sub time just to sit in a station and train learnings? Good point, truly good point.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

R053
U-208 Blade.
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 15:10:00 -
[450]
Originally by: Jasdemi
What point? Driving new players away who got a brain and don't want to waste their 3 months sub time just to sit in a station and train learnings? Good point, truly good point.
Who ever said u have to sit in the station doing nothing while training learning? EVE Never Fades |
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Wikis
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 15:26:00 -
[451]
most idiotic stupid ******ed solution ive ever seen.#
NOT supported
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 15:55:00 -
[452]
Originally by: R053
Originally by: Jasdemi
What point? Driving new players away who got a brain and don't want to waste their 3 months sub time just to sit in a station and train learnings? Good point, truly good point.
Who ever said u have to sit in the station doing nothing while training learning?
Exactly.
I had a great time my first few months in Eve. I explored, I mined, I shot things and got shot. I slowly worked learning skills in-between other skills for mods and ships I wanted to play with.
My first few months in Eve rank among my most fun times in the game (been playing almost 5 years), along with my first move out to 0.0 and the time right after the introduction of wormholes.
Anyone who doesn't leave the station until they train all learning has a SELF INFLICTED problem, it's not the game's fault. There's LOTS of things a new pilot with no skills can and should do to have fun.
Still not supporting the removal of learning skills.
|

Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 17:56:00 -
[453]
I don't think everyone should receive +10 and 10%. I think that is a little bit too fast for training. I think everyone should receive like +8 and 10%. (But I guess it doesn't matter much)
Also I think CCP should refund the learning skill sp in lump sum - like the 100k sp we just received. -Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |

Captain Organs
ArmoredCore Armed Forces
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 22:19:00 -
[454]
I'd love another 2.4m sp that I could reallocate. Supported!
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Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 13:45:00 -
[455]
Up
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Jorsalir
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:00:00 -
[456]
Not supported, keep the learning skills. If people want to learn faster they will invest the time in them. If not, then they lag behind.
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Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:36:00 -
[457]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/07/2010 19:36:17
Originally by: Jorsalir Not supported, keep the learning skills. If people want to learn faster they will invest the time in them. If not, then they lag behind.
Translation: I'm afraid of noobs who skill up their combat skills quicker and pwn me in pvp, because I have to player skill at all.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Simeon Whiteheaven
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:50:00 -
[458]
No, I dont like this. Not supported
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Jurona
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:54:00 -
[459]
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/07/2010 19:36:17
Originally by: Jorsalir Not supported, keep the learning skills. If people want to learn faster they will invest the time in them. If not, then they lag behind.
Translation: I'm afraid of noobs who skill up their combat skills quicker and pwn me in pvp, because I have to player skill at all.
I'm struggling to understand your logic.
I mean, you say it yourself... people who choose to do combat skills first will get the full benefit of the training bonus, so... yeah...
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Ordavion
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 02:10:00 -
[460]
This is a fail idea. EVE needs the learning skills...they add depth
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Xorv
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 03:22:00 -
[461]
Reading a lot of the comments and assertions by those opposed to removing Learning skills makes me feel like I'm witnessing the thoughts of people from another dimension where up is down, black is white, and wrong is right.
Seriously, can just one of you come up with logical argument supporting learning skill in EVE that makes sense this side of reality, and is not a poorly masked attempt to keep a perceived personal advantage?
How about the comment above mine... "Learning skills add Depth" Really?? Depth in what way? Because a lot of the rest of us aren't seeing it.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 05:31:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Xorv Reading a lot of the comments and assertions by those opposed to removing Learning skills makes me feel like I'm witnessing the thoughts of people from another dimension where up is down, black is white, and wrong is right.
Seriously, can just one of you come up with logical argument supporting learning skill in EVE that makes sense this side of reality, and is not a poorly masked attempt to keep a perceived personal advantage?
How about the comment above mine... "Learning skills add Depth" Really?? Depth in what way? Because a lot of the rest of us aren't seeing it.
Does the question of when to put money into savings versus when to spend money on stuff add depth to life?
Does the question of when to keep going to school versus when to enter the job market add depth to life?
If the answer to either or both of these questions is "yes" - learning skills add depth to Eve.
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Skarsnik
Caldari DarkArch Corp
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 06:24:00 -
[463]
Not supported. As many have said new players are not forced to train them instead of 'Fun Skills'.
I've been playing since that fateful May 2003, I didn't train all the learning skills all at once, I'm now proabably behind a lot if not all 2k3 vets in SP total, but do I care, no really, I trained them as I went along when I felt I could, and they benefit me now, but overall I had more fun in those first 3-6 months than most as I avoided the brainwashing of 'Learning skills must be trained' ------------- Criags Dive Blog - Career Change EVE-Ink Tattoo Project |

Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 08:32:00 -
[464]
Originally by: Skarsnik Not supported. As many have said new players are not forced to train them instead of 'Fun Skills'.
I've been playing since that fateful May 2003, I didn't train all the learning skills all at once, I'm now proabably behind a lot if not all 2k3 vets in SP total, but do I care, no really, I trained them as I went along when I felt I could, and they benefit me now, but overall I had more fun in those first 3-6 months than most as I avoided the brainwashing of 'Learning skills must be trained'
2003 =/= 2010
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Xorv
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 08:58:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Does the question of when to put money into savings versus when to spend money on stuff add depth to life?
Not really. Also EVE already has a dynamic economy and economic choices that a player has to make that actually involves... well money (ISK). So, Learning Skills are not required to create this, it already exists without them.
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Does the question of when to keep going to school versus when to enter the job market add depth to life?
Slightly. But this isn't even relevant to Learning skills in EVE, the direct comparison is training skills that actually do something. So, do I train a 2 day skill that gets me X, or do I put that 30 day investment to get Y. Don't know about you but of all my years at university and college I can only recall spending maybe 2 hours taking an optional workshop that was about learning to learn.
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
If the answer to either or both of these questions is "yes" - learning skills add depth to Eve.
No, even if both were true it doesn't lead to your conclusion. Lets be frank here Learning skills are no more than an arbitrary time sink. No amount of spin can change that.
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Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 15:51:00 -
[466]
I haven't heard one serious reason why learnings should NOT be removed. Looks like they will, very soon. :)
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate Underworld Excavators
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Posted - 2010.07.10 16:29:00 -
[467]
and i hope that happens ASAP, they are utteraly useless. I hurts me when a new player spends weeks of his time in a frig, wituot anything to do, doing learning skills. While i try to prevent such stupidity where i can, some silly people somewhere suffer.
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Kaeron Sunkeeper
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Posted - 2010.07.10 19:21:00 -
[468]
Totaly Support this post
Remove Learning Skills Add the atributes + Learning Skills benefits when maxed out
Reinburst Players who Spent Points in em so the can relocate them to anywhere they want
And for people who go around saying "ohh I spent Time learning em SOOO u should 2 andd its unfair blabla"
First Stop being selfish pricks! Just cuz u had to spend time on it and now other might have a chance to have more fun and a easier start (cuz the have has already stiff learning curve as it is!) doesnt mean other have to spend that time! Second Maxed Skill benefit + Reinburstment IS MORE than fair, you will NOT loose a single thing if this change happes! Will be helpfull for everyone! AND even for u elder player if u plan to start an alt to help you out! Third "Learning skills are part of game deal with itt blabla" If being ****d by carrots was part of game would u endure it? It is called evolution Happens in every reality so stop being closed minded fools and selfish! MMo's are a virtual reality so it is object of changes. To improve experience. Simple.. Removing Learning Skill will improve Experience and allow new players to have some fun early game in a already RLY hard game no need to make things harder.. so yes..
100% Support onto this :D
|

Amelia Ryan
CONCORD Operations
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 20:38:00 -
[469]
Edited by: Amelia Ryan on 10/07/2010 20:38:12 OP supported.
Makes it fair for new & old.
Edit: forgot thumbs up.
|

Ninshiki
|
Posted - 2010.07.11 00:50:00 -
[470]
Edited by: Ninshiki on 11/07/2010 00:51:35 Captain Obvious Sarcasm reporting.
Learning skills are the most important skills in the game. They're the only skills that offer you the choice of learning the skills that actually affect your character faster by spending time learning other skills! I think CCP should do the exact opposite of get rid of them, they should add yet another tier of learning skills that make the existing learning skills train even faster!
This would add even more choice and depth! - If you want the skills that affect your character's performance to train effectively, then you not only get the choice of whether or not to train the existing learning skills, you get to choose how fast those train by choosing whether or not to train the skills that speed up training your existing learning skills!
This would add even more choice as to how fast you get to the skills that actually affect your character's performance! So much depth is added by skills that you train specifically to affect how fast other skills train, I can't see how anyone would want these removed!
Captain Obvious Sarcasm out. |
|

Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.11 10:34:00 -
[471]
Trolls, angry vets who are protecting learning skills sound like this to me so far:
"Oh god, please. Don't let EVE evolve. Even if learning skills were a mistake and are just broken mechanics, don't let them remove it. Please let me play a broken game. Also I strongly disagree with the removal of learnings, since they will lower the steep learn curve a bit for the newbies. Hell no, don't let newbies ever have a chance to start playing. I want the game all for myself"
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Nagsir Inaste
Horizontal Mambo
|
Posted - 2010.07.11 20:01:00 -
[472]
Would make EVE a better game, and provide a fair solution to everyone.
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Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
|
Posted - 2010.07.12 07:07:00 -
[473]
Counter Proposal:
1. New Characters are created with all the skills in the learning subgroup trained to level III, including the advanced skills.
2. Increase the 100% training bonus cut off to account for the SP added by these gifted skills to level III.
3. Change the prerequisite for advanced learning skills to level III of the primary skill instead of IV.
4. Existing Characters are given SP pool equal to all the learning skills trained to level 3. (no matter if they have the skills trained or not)
5. Reimbursement of isk? Do not care one way or the other about this.
Rationale:
If the new character experience is the actual catalyst behind this proposal, it seems the OP is excessive. Why not a solution that eliminates the obsession with training the skills without unjustly rewarding or punishing existing players for the choices they have made thus far?
New players would now have less obsession to station spin while skills are trained, yet they still have an option which has not diluted the depth of the game.
Existing players still benefit from the choices they have made thus far without penalty or undue reward.
This is a solution I could support.
I can not support the OP. It devalues the benefit that players expected and relied upon when they made their original choices.
This taken from my reponse in the other thread on this topic.
Patri
I'll Roshambo you for that Titan |

Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.12 11:13:00 -
[474]
Patri, this is an interesting compromise suggestion.
I would like to see more discussion of this idea in this thread, as it may be useful as an alternative to present to CCP. It does have the advantage of being easier to implement (well, probably).
Can someone please run the numbers on how much training time this would save noobs? Further, how can noobs be encouraged to not continue training the learning skills during the double-rate period?
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician
|

Brodit
Gallente Dark Harlequin
|
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:39:00 -
[475]
Over my dead and stinking carcass. 
I started playing eve 4.5 years ago and unlike most newcomers to the game I had spent some time researching Eve's "proffessions", skills and game mechanics. Way back then I knew I would like eve, and so to get the most benefit out of my $20 a month subscription, I trained Basic Learning to V (the prerequisite for Adv Learning at the time) followed by Adv Learning 4. See these are RL reasons, they have nothing to do with Eve and everything to do with value for money. The higher my stats, the quicker I train and improve my return rate. So I had to run around in a frig for a while longer than i would have, by the time i was ready for a cruiser/bc/bs i had the peripheral skills required to fly them properly, (be honest how many of you charged through the ships only to get them torn apart by a hisec belt spawn) .
Now lets move on to the real issue. Of those opposed to Learning how many have been outstripped by younger players who were more diligent in their training. By the time i was 3 yrs i had the same sps of people playing since 04. Now probably 03. I notice with interest that most want the 50 points in their stats (10 points per att) and the 10% but don't want the hassle of traing the skills.
The only way this could be fairly introduced is if they worked out who got what sps from what learning skills and correlate against which version Eve the char was born in as the character generation has changed radically since the days we got the average 30 points in atts. Now i believe it is 43.
Counter proposal, remove the Learning skills, the additional attribute points and the 10% bonus. Give every char with learning skills the equivelent sps to allocate as they see fit, and give the oldest players as many attribute points as it takes to give them parity with newer chars.
Okay then I was being sarcastic, now bury this motion before I puke, or worse ask for the removal of missile skill and science skill trees.
|

Niyrah
|
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:48:00 -
[476]
No....Learning skills are fine as is.
Why is everyone so bent on fixing something that isn't broken?
|

Xorv
|
Posted - 2010.07.12 20:15:00 -
[477]
Originally by: Patri Andari
Rationale:
If the new character experience is the actual catalyst behind this proposal, it seems the OP is excessive. Why not a solution that eliminates the obsession with training the skills without unjustly rewarding or punishing existing players for the choices they have made thus far?
New players would now have less obsession to station spin while skills are trained, yet they still have an option which has not diluted the depth of the game.
Existing players still benefit from the choices they have made thus far without penalty or undue reward. [...]
New player experience is one of the primary problems with learning skills, but it isn't the sole reason to remove them. Learning Skills are in of themselves just bad game design. They do not add "depth" to the game, they don't make sense in terms of realism, and they aren't fun for anyone but the most deranged min/maxers. The only thing Learning Skills add is a meaningless time sink.
No one is punished or rewarded by removing Learning skills. No one's getting the benefits they gained in the past from learning skills taken away, nor is anyone being given the benefits of learning skills previously lost over the years/months by those who didn't train them. What's past is past and won't be changed.
There's no compromise on the Learning Skills themselves, they're bad game play and need to removed entirely.
Something I think that can be compromised on is what Learning Skills are replaced with. Rather than giving everyone the equivalent of maxed Learning Skills to their attributes, I think it would be reasonable to only give players a portion of that (say 4/4/5 for example) and make the difference with new attribute enhancing items such as enhanced implants or learning boosters as I suggested in another thread.
|

Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.13 10:19:00 -
[478]
Learnings are totally wrong in EVE and yet trolling vets support them. lol
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

irion felpamy
Assisted Genocide
|
Posted - 2010.07.13 10:29:00 -
[479]
They are rubbish just get rid of them. give a flat +5 to stats, give a flat +11 I don't really care.
|

Windwizard
|
Posted - 2010.07.13 14:43:00 -
[480]
good idea!I agree with you! Ccp hurry to do this!   
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|

Dominatio ZR
|
Posted - 2010.07.14 06:59:00 -
[481]
 GOOD!
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gotowest
|
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:00:00 -
[482]
Ccp hurry to do this!
  
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Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.14 14:11:00 -
[483]
Originally by: gotowest Ccp hurry to do this!
  
3rd alt in a row. xD
CCP, hurry to do this!    
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Neu Bastian
Valklear Guard
|
Posted - 2010.07.14 14:20:00 -
[484]
Having to spend weeks training learning skills just so you can train at a decent rate means your new player sitting in the same t1 fitted rifer not being abble to fit new stuff for weeks. that HAS to be annoying. I know I didn't even bothered to do anything with my alts until those where done.
Quote:
Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
|

Cifese
|
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:43:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Neu Bastian Having to spend weeks training learning skills just so you can train at a decent rate means your new player sitting in the same t1 fitted rifer not being abble to fit new stuff for weeks. that HAS to be annoying. I know I didn't even bothered to do anything with my alts until those where done.
Choice. I've been running missions with my T1 fitted rifter while training them. There is no magic rule that you have to sit in station while training learning skills. If the skills didn't exist you wouldn't train them - so don't if you support this proposal.
|

Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2010.07.14 16:18:00 -
[486]
Originally by: Neu Bastian Having to spend weeks training learning skills just so you can train at a decent rate means your new player sitting in the same t1 fitted rifer not being abble to fit new stuff for weeks. that HAS to be annoying. I know I didn't even bothered to do anything with my alts until those where done.
An example of why a proposal that is dressed up as something for the new players (save the children!) is actually a proposal to make it easier for vets to train up alts.
What is best for an alt and what is best for a true new player are not the same.
Still not supporting removing Learning skills.
|

gankmeplz
|
Posted - 2010.07.15 06:17:00 -
[487]
learning skills are used to separate long-term and short-term players.
|

siC0 b0b
|
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:58:00 -
[488]
what, there's no problem with learning skills, who's complaining
how about CCP starts fixing the actual problems this game has
|

Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:59:00 -
[489]
Originally by: siC0 b0b what, there's no problem with learning skills, who's complaining
how about CCP starts fixing the actual problems this game has
Agree. Starting with the alt-posting issue.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

siC0 b0b
|
Posted - 2010.07.15 18:20:00 -
[490]
Originally by: Jasdemi Agree. Starting with the alt-posting issue.
You're an idiot for even saying that, not menioning the fact you don't know how AH even works.
|
|

Luru Parz
Dark Guard Corp
|
Posted - 2010.07.15 18:45:00 -
[491]
If CCP plan on removing learning skills and I don't for a minute think they do then I suugest that they simply remove the books. Those that have trained the skills get to keep their attribute increases, those that haven't get to play the game not having to worry about training them.
Nice and simple solution.
|

Wandering Deathstriker
|
Posted - 2010.07.15 23:21:00 -
[492]
One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points? After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn. In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...
This way, all the old timer's still have their attribute advantage, all the newbies won't be detracted by ship spinning right away and have a chance to experience the game, the depth/strategy to learning skills still remain in the game at no "initial" cost to newbies! The best part of it all, is you wouldn't need to reimburse skill points at all to anyone, rather you could simply extend the sp learning bonus for new characters just a little more.
-Wandering Deathstriker
|

Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2010.07.16 00:05:00 -
[493]
Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points? After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn. In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...
-Wandering Deathstriker
That's not bad... |

Xorv
|
Posted - 2010.07.16 05:53:00 -
[494]
Wow I see the "keep learning skill" posters are still coming up with some real winners. 
Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points? After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn. In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...
This way, all the old timer's still have their attribute advantage, all the newbies won't be detracted by ship spinning right away and have a chance to experience the game, the depth/strategy to learning skills still remain in the game at no "initial" cost to newbies! The best part of it all, is you wouldn't need to reimburse skill points at all to anyone, rather you could simply extend the sp learning bonus for new characters just a little more.
-Wandering Deathstriker
There's NO meaningful "depth" or "strategy" in respect to Learning Skills. How many times do the rest of us have to call shenanigans on this ridiculous claim?
Why do Older players need to have an attribute advantage? They already have in some cases several years of skill training over a new character. No new player will ever catch an older player in terms of skill points, without that older player canceling their account for a prolonged period of time. ... Even if CCP get rid of Learning skills and just add the difference to everyone's stats, older players will still have higher stats because no real new player is going to train cybernetics to V and dish out half a billion on +5 attribute implants... so yeah they'll still have an edge, just not as big, nor risk free.
Originally by: Luru Parz If CCP plan on removing learning skills and I don't for a minute think they do then I suugest that they simply remove the books. Those that have trained the skills get to keep their attribute increases, those that haven't get to play the game not having to worry about training them.
Nice and simple solution.
Yeah thanks for this post, it sums up a lot of the "keep learning skill" posters very nicely. Basically a bunch of lamers. Very much akin to the Darkfall players I remember that rushed to squeeze every possible gain out of exploits, then rejoice when the developers eventually fix it and close off the "advantage" to everyone else. How pathetic are some of you that you feel the need to have a big training time advantage over new players that already are at a huge disadvantage simple by virtue of being new?
CCP Remove Learning Skills! Don't cater to a bunch of lamers!
|

Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.16 13:49:00 -
[495]
Learning skills hurt the re-supply of new players. Remove, ffs!
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Sim Cognito
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse True Reign
|
Posted - 2010.07.16 15:03:00 -
[496]
Definetely supported.Learning skills are a plague.
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Icebok
|
Posted - 2010.07.16 17:59:00 -
[497]
/signed
|

Jasdemi
Caldari Manufacturing
|
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:12:00 -
[498]
Trebor, still around? When can we expect this proposal to be raised?
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Galdornae
Caldari Locus Industries
|
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:25:00 -
[499]
Learning skills are fine. If new players find them confusing well... what in this game isn't confusing for new players?
Not supported.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Manufacturing
|
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:43:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Galdornae Learning skills are fine. If new players find them confusing well... what in this game isn't confusing for new players?
Not supported.
It's not about confusion. As a new player you have to wait few months to train your learning skills before you can actually start playing the game. This leads to loss of motivation => quit
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
|

Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:56:00 -
[501]
Originally by: Jasdemi As a new player you have to wait few months to train your learning skills before you can actually start playing the game. This leads to loss of motivation => quit
No, a new player does not have to spend a few months training anything before actually playing the game. I didn't. I started playing day one.
|

Saisio Arisu
|
Posted - 2010.07.17 03:03:00 -
[502]
Edited by: Saisio Arisu on 17/07/2010 03:07:47 Hi. This sound like an intresting topic. First of all, remove those skills. For diffrent reasons I have started to play with 3 chars, and each time I did have to train the learning skills which are a painfull process training to 5/5.
Yes, eve are loseing a lot of potensial new players to eve, I have several friends who have declined to start play it base on the fact of the learnings skills. Training learning skills, taks about 2-3 months totaly, not strange that lot of potensial players are leaving the game because of that.
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Norath84
Idle Haven
|
Posted - 2010.07.17 05:07:00 -
[503]
|

Bourdon
|
Posted - 2010.07.17 10:00:00 -
[504]
Yes, please remove learning skills!
I would be happy with the proposed solution.
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Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.17 10:12:00 -
[505]
Originally by: Jasdemi Trebor, still around? When can we expect this proposal to be raised?
Yes, I am still monitoring the thread. I am also gathering some data related to this proposal.
I am of the opinion that this issue is a very important one, and I want to make sure the proposal is as tight and useful as possible. Furthermore, after I actually formally raise it on the wiki, I want everyone to have a chance to comment on it.
For these reasons, it may not make it onto the docket for the next CSM meeting on the 25th.
PS: one thing that people who support the proposal could do to help is re-run the NPE and make a list of the tweaks that would be needed if either the OP's proposal or this counter-proposal was implemented. I plan to do this same this weekend if time permits.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2010.07.17 14:26:00 -
[506]
Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points? After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn. In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...
-Wandering Deathstriker
What about this one Trebor?
It seems to me that if the motivation for this change is truly to "save the noobs" this proposal 100% addresses the concern of new pilots being put off by the learning skills - because those skills won't be available when someone first starts the game. A person would have time to get addicted to Eve before having the option to train them.
This is the simplest, least invasive, and most effective fix to the stated problem of new pilots being discouraged by learning skills. This requires no skill re-distribution, no attribute changes, none of the rest of the changes.
I would expect this idea to be dismissed by those who simply hate the learning skills and who are using "protecting the noobs" as an excuse to advocate having them removed so they can make alts faster.
However, this approach satisfies those of us who do believe that the learning skills add something to the game that would be a shame to lose, and it should satisfy those who are concerned about the effect of learning skills on new players.
|

Xorv
|
Posted - 2010.07.17 20:00:00 -
[507]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points? After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn. In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...
-Wandering Deathstriker
Terrible counter proposal, if CCP implemented something like this it would actually **** me off way more than leaving existing Learning Skills as they are. This proposal of yours isn't about helping newbies at all, it's about keeping the status-quo and making it actually worse for newbies. It also completely ignores that a good many of us believe Learning Skills are bad game play/design irrespective of its negative impact of new player experience.
|

Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.17 20:40:00 -
[508]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points? After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn. In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...
-Wandering Deathstriker
What about this one Trebor?
It seems to me that if the motivation for this change is truly to "save the noobs" this proposal 100% addresses the concern of new pilots being put off by the learning skills - because those skills won't be available when someone first starts the game. A person would have time to get addicted to Eve before having the option to train them.
The immediate problem I see is that it slows down initial noob skill acquisition, which is exactly what you don't want to do, given that noobs are more focused on instant gratification. The more achievements they get, the more they get sucked into the game.
Ideally, every time a noob logs off, there should be some some training goal that will be achieved by their next session (ie: the next day, so typically within the length of the skill training queue) that will let them try something new -- like a new ship, or a new aspect of EVE.
Of course, the ideal is impossible to achieve, but the closer you can get to it, and the less barriers you put in the way, the better.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
|

Surrah
Fallen Knights
|
Posted - 2010.07.17 22:43:00 -
[509]
Not Supported
|

Na'kia
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2010.07.17 23:13:00 -
[510]
Great suggestion!
I hope it will be implemented soon ...
|
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Postmodern Intellectual
|
Posted - 2010.07.18 08:45:00 -
[511]
I think that this proposal is a better solution. But this is certainly better than the current system.
|

the lovebug
|
Posted - 2010.07.18 09:11:00 -
[512]
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!
DONT LIKE THEM DONT TRAIN THEM STFU
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Tarana Orwell
|
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:19:00 -
[513]
Supported!
Remove Learning Skills CCP!
It's one thing to make a mistake in adding these stupid skills to the game, it's quite another matter to have let that mistake stand for so many years even when you acknowledge they're a mistake. Still better late than never.
|

Neyuki
|
Posted - 2010.07.20 06:26:00 -
[514]
No....Learning is NOT broken. Leave it alone CCP, |

Jasdemi
Caldari Manufacturing
|
Posted - 2010.07.21 18:18:00 -
[515]
*Digging out a serious thread.*
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Gorongo Frostfyr
Projekt Erzengel Cold Steel Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.07.24 15:49:00 -
[516]
want my sp back now. :[ _________________ Lost in a realm of eternal ice on the threshold of eternity. Signature image removed. English only please. Zymurgist |

Jason Bauer
|
Posted - 2010.07.25 10:41:00 -
[517]
I support. Have my SP put in my Swiss bank account.
|

Barney Killer
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 05:43:00 -
[518]
Supported
As a noob I hated them
I have to buy them?
They take HOW long to train?
They make it HOW much faster, 1-2 hrs per level???
If I don't train them I won't be able to get my shiny new ship fast enough?
|

Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 15:19:00 -
[519]
Raised as a proposal to the CSM.
Your comments regarding adjustments and improvements are solicited.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
|

Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 19:29:00 -
[520]
Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 26/07/2010 19:28:58
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Raised as a proposal to the CSM.
Your comments regarding adjustments and improvements are solicited.
Bah.
After this shall we work on the "Level V skills take too long to train and they frustrate new players to let's automatically give people level V when they reach level IV. It'll improve new player retention!" proposal?
|
|

Tyrin Amari
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 20:08:00 -
[521]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Raised as a proposal to the CSM.
Your comments regarding adjustments and improvements are solicited.
13,071 and counting views 156 Supports
and this is the horse your backing????
|

Bfoster
Shadow Striders
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 21:35:00 -
[522]
Well since I have them trained, I don't really care. But I do know it is killing the new player experience and know a lot of new players that leave because of it. It's just not fun spending a couple of days training skills that don't get you into something new. Sure as a experienced player I see the benefit of them, but new players don't and don't care. They just see it as a annoyance and loose interest in the game. This would be one way to help the new player experience. ------------------------------------
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Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 10:37:00 -
[523]
I am raising the proposal for several reasons:
* It has received significant support (as well as passionate dissent).
* It has significant consequences for the health of the game.
* The CSM represents all players -- including clueless noobs.
* The issue deserves attention by the full CSM. They may well vote it down, or pass it in modified form. But no matter what the outcome...
* ...I think it is important to get some sort of position on this issue on the record, for the simple reason that at some point CCP may decide to make changes for retention reasons, and if they do, I think it's important to have a template out there that suggests how to do it in a manner that is as favorable as possible to the people who've already trained learning skills.
Think of this proposal as a condom whose purpose is to *prevent* a screwing.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
|

Swearte Widfarend
Gallente Royal Enterprise Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 14:55:00 -
[524]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow I am raising the proposal for several reasons:
* It has received significant support (as well as passionate dissent).
* It has significant consequences for the health of the game.
* The CSM represents all players -- including clueless noobs.
* The issue deserves attention by the full CSM. They may well vote it down, or pass it in modified form. But no matter what the outcome...
* ...I think it is important to get some sort of position on this issue on the record, for the simple reason that at some point CCP may decide to make changes for retention reasons, and if they do, I think it's important to have a template out there that suggests how to do it in a manner that is as favorable as possible to the people who've already trained learning skills.
Think of this proposal as a condom whose purpose is to *prevent* a screwing.
I think that you are full of it. Do you have a position on this, or are you a true politician? I think your wiki article makes it obvious where you stand on this with this one line:
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow will eventually create more bitter old vets
The wiki article is a mess, including unsubstantiated "facts" that are likely fallacies. If we are allowed to edit your proposals, I would have done it directly.
consensus: n. 1. An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole
This is probably an outright lie, based on the definition of consensus (above):
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow The consensus of the CSM is that the current learning skills system is, on balance, a detriment to EVE
I would like to see the actual post-account-cancellation surveys that are for truly "new" players (not players creating alt accounts) that cite having to train Learning skills as a cause for their cancellation.
I angrily hate this proposal - not necessarily the removal of learning skills but the "give me stats or give me basic learning skills" - either the learning skills are a problem, or they are not. Either they should exist (as is) or not.
I firmly believe that the learning skills should stay as is. HOWEVER, if there were to be a change, it should be to remove learning skills and refund the actual SP that players have put into said skills. All attributes are reduced to non-learning skill levels. Refunding skillbooks has to be based on NPC sell price (and still has issues). PERIOD. Anything else is a wolf in sheep's clothing, whining entitlement babies who don't like that it takes days(weeks/months) to train for the big shiny.
I take this position from a player with 3 accounts and 7 characters, all with basic learning skills to V and advanced skills to at least III, (some IV and 1 with all learning skills at V). If they are going away, make everything about them go away - don't institute fake attribute boosts and additional remaps.
A more accurate statement about Pros: ò Simplifies the skill training decision tree for players ò Removes psychological barrier to undocking without learning skills
A more accurate statement about Cons: ò Simplifies the skill training decision tree for players ò increases overall training time for all skills by removing learning bonuses
|

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 15:10:00 -
[525]
Edited by: SencneS on 27/07/2010 15:11:00 If the CMS's and CCP manage to get this passed, there will undoubtedly be a new Proposal to re-add learning skills which will receive MUCH MUCH more support then this thread received.. 
For that reason alone I would much rather the CSM's and CCP devote their time to an issue which ISN'T going to result in a proposal to reverse the changes..
P.S. No supported.
Amarr for Life |

stoicfaux
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 20:04:00 -
[526]
Originally by: Tyrin Amari
13,071 and counting views 156 Supports
and this is the horse your backing????
156 supports and *ZERO* disapprovals! Plus not all supporters add a thumbs up to every post they make in the thread (voting multiple times is rude.) It's a good day to be a politician when you can vote on an issue and not anger anyone.

----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Swearte Widfarend
Gallente Royal Enterprise Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 20:37:00 -
[527]
Originally by: stoicfaux 156 supports and *ZERO* disapprovals! Plus not all supporters add a thumbs up to every post they make in the thread (voting multiple times is rude.) It's a good day to be a politician when you can vote on an issue and not anger anyone.

I'm sorry can you show me the DO NOT SUPPORT button to check? maybe if you read this threadnaught you'd realize the odds are like 156 for, 1560 against...
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Tyrin Amari
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 21:53:00 -
[528]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Tyrin Amari
13,071 and counting views 156 Supports
and this is the horse your backing????
156 supports and *ZERO* disapprovals! Plus not all supporters add a thumbs up to every post they make in the thread (voting multiple times is rude.) It's a good day to be a politician when you can vote on an issue and not anger anyone.

You Sir are an Asshat. As stated above there is no option to not support.
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Tacolina
|
Posted - 2010.07.28 00:18:00 -
[529]
I'd support but only if ccp implemented Learning skills replaced with focused training instead.
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Irjuna Valar
|
Posted - 2010.07.28 00:48:00 -
[530]
/supported
Learning skills are a flawed mechanic. While no fix would be popular with everyone, that isn't a good reason to keep a poor gameplay design.
|
|

Aphrodite Skripalle
|
Posted - 2010.07.28 06:03:00 -
[531]
not supported. Learning skills are part of the game from the beginning. Thats why i learned the learning skills first to get the benefit of it. If you dont do it, its your mistake.
I have all learning up on all my chars, so now i want have the longterm benefits of this game mechanic.
Because if ccp removes them now, this would really suck to me because then i will loose my trust to the game and i will never make any longterm plans anymore.
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Echo Gemini
Minmatar Intergalactic Sunrise
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Posted - 2010.07.28 08:12:00 -
[532]
[not supported]
EvE has bigger issues than "learning is evil" complains!
Learning skills are good for: - increases the time all the isk-selling characters are flying Covertors or bigger; - increases the time all the isk-selling characters are flying Nighmare/Paladin/Golem s; - increases the number of rtards that are complaining about EvE's game design - i wonder if everybody who sign the petitions so far ever worked in game-developing industry or if have knowledge about game-design; - increases the number of rtards that are complaining about ammar ships; - increases the number of rtards that are complaining about caldari ships; - increases the number of rtards that are complaining about gallente ships; - increases the number of rtards that are complaining about minmatar ships; - increases rate for the griefers/carebears/*******s are spawning in game [i.e. everyone will have 5 alts with bs that will pop everything at 1.0 gates ... and nobody -> ccp employee <- will check 100 bilions lines of logs to apply the proper punishment]; - decreases the time all the ******s leaves and plays WoW; - makes a good difference between an industrial pilot and a pew-pew pilot ... otherwise everybody will know everything [super-bad]; - older people will feel bad about choosing EvE when all pvp fights will be with 14.year.old.blobs in 1.0 [holy**** I will ask for refunds ... all of them ]; - friends of friends of friends will have so many ISK in day 1 ... why i'm even bodering - they are 50000 players in weekends, at the moment ... if friends of friends of friends will play ... every system will be JITA;
So: - you don't have to bring your moronic friends to have fun!.. - all games should be played by everyone is silly and childish; - "**** Sleipnir has +1 slot!.. I'm so ****ing sad ... Let's remove learning!" is based on your alcoholic unconscious brain; - if you say: "I have to stay 2 months in EvE docked and i'm losing time saving money for my titan", you should play WoW; - yeah WoW is better! Go play it! - EvE is dying and losing player because of the bugs/griefers/10000 isk/second carebears; - EvE is dying because some ships are not even used(that's bad game design) and only 4-5 ships/per race are frequently used; - EvE is dying because CCP introduces new planetary-**** features instead of new ships and jovian empire! - EvE is dying because everything is redundant, and with or without learning, your moronic friend will still get bored!
True stories dude:
I'm doing missions ... and omfg my tank breaks!.. But that's ok, I'm aligned and at full spead ... Waiting for my drones! Waiting for my drones! Where are you drones ... Heeeey i'm in half armor ... Let me warp out ... press warp to button ... Your-Ending: yes your ship has warped out!.. One second later: omfg i'm in capsule!..
Gate camp ... oh goddie!.. Pew pew peeeeew ship blows! One second later: omfg i'm in station!..
Morale: I have broadband connection and an quad-core intel processor!.. And my ships gets destroyed from time to time and i'm lagging ... And I still have fun with my in-game/rl friends!.. But you are telling me you cannot because of the learning skills... Just **** off!!
Planting seeds of evil! |

Thoran Karlien
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.07.28 12:49:00 -
[533]
Times sinks are bad.
I am currently in at about 1.3 million in learnings, 4/5 everything, mostly 4. I'd support removing of the learning skills even if only 5 points are added to the attributes and no sp refunded.
Less points added and the higher rank skills are going to make my bite my desk.
So, thumbs up
____________________________ Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style! |

Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.28 14:56:00 -
[534]
Originally by: Swearte Widfarend I think that you are full of it. Do you have a position on this, or are you a true politician?
I substantially agree with the contents of the proposal. You should note that I raised it knowing that it would be controversial and probably get me at least lightly toasted in this thread. I did so because I feel it is a topic that needs debate at the CSM level, because I view it as an overall "long-term health of the game" issue.
Quote: The wiki article is a mess, including unsubstantiated "facts" that are likely fallacies.
I am open to evidence that there are errors in the presentation. Also note that all CSM proposals are drafts, subject to debate and modification during the actual meetings. Even if it is passed, certain aspects of it may be strengthened or weakened after discussion by delegates.
Quote: I would like to see the actual post-account-cancellation surveys that are for truly "new" players (not players creating alt accounts) that cite having to train Learning skills as a cause for their cancellation.
So would I. Unfortunately, this information has not been made available to CSM. Getting more info out of CCP has been an enduring CSM theme.
Quote: I angrily hate this proposal - not necessarily the removal of learning skills but the "give me stats or give me basic learning skills" - either the learning skills are a problem, or they are not. Either they should exist (as is) or not.
Alas, "the perfect is the enemy of the good". There is no solution to this issue that will satisfy all the players. The point of the elimination proposal was to address the perceived retention issue while not affecting the training rate of existing players (except for the people who have trained advanced skills to V).
While as a purist (from a game-design standpoint) I would say "dump the learning skills and adjust training times so that the average rates are the same as they currently are", the realist in me is tending towards the other proposal (3's in everything as default) as easier to do while getting most of the benefits (and not affecting people with advanced V skills).
The bottom line is, if CCP doesn't think there is a retention issue associated with learning skills, they will simply dump this into the backlog to rot. If they do, better we have some input (and public debate) than for them to present you with a fait-accompi that will cause you to ragequit.
Politics is, indeed, "the art of the possible."
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Swearte Widfarend
Gallente Royal Enterprise Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.07.28 15:35:00 -
[535]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow I am open to evidence that there are errors in the presentation. Also note that all CSM proposals are drafts, subject to debate and modification during the actual meetings. Even if it is passed, certain aspects of it may be strengthened or weakened after discussion by delegates.
Well, to begin with there is no consensus in the CSM that the Learning skills are a problem - since you haven't had the meeting to discuss them.
Then, the claims that new player retention is affected by the learning skills.
Then the claim that changing them would improve new player retention
Then the claim that the only negative impact is "bitter old vets"
With no facts and a biased presentation, I turn this back upon you. Present FACTS that any of these are true before stating them as facts. You are the one making claims. Where is your evidence?
I am merely accusing you of making claims without facts to support them.
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Nateryl
Lupus Draconis Dragehund
|
Posted - 2010.07.28 15:44:00 -
[536]
I support this. Although I would like fine tuning of the implementation. Probably just allow players to immediately distribute the SP from learning skills rather then giving a time bonus.
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Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:55:00 -
[537]
Originally by: Swearte Widfarend Well, to begin with there is no consensus in the CSM that the Learning skills are a problem - since you haven't had the meeting to discuss them.
Then, the claims that new player retention is affected by the learning skills.
Then the claim that changing them would improve new player retention
Then the claim that the only negative impact is "bitter old vets"
With no facts and a biased presentation, I turn this back upon you. Present FACTS that any of these are true before stating them as facts. You are the one making claims. Where is your evidence?
I am merely accusing you of making claims without facts to support them.
The proposal is merely that, a proposed statement by the CSM. If the other members of the CSM do not agree with the wording, it will be changed after debate during the meeting.
I have come to a considered conclusion on this issue, based on all the evidence available to me at this time. If you provide additional evidence, I will reconsider my conclusions in light of the new information.
PS: the mention of "bitter old vets" in the proposal is an example of an extremely advanced concept that you are clearly unfamiliar with. Here is a Wikipedia link that may be helpful.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 13:47:00 -
[538]
I would like to see the following added to the Cons list to correctly represent much of the feedback that has been given:
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development that many feel are a feature/benefit and not a problem.
|

Swearte Widfarend
Gallente Royal Enterprise Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:42:00 -
[539]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow PS: the mention of "bitter old vets" in the proposal is an example of an extremely advanced concept that you are clearly unfamiliar with. Here is a Wikipedia link that may be helpful.
I did not realize that a proposal going before the CSM was the place for a satirical comment. I thought it was "serious spaceship business" - my bad. Guess my belief that CSM is supposed to be doing "serious spaceship business" for the playerbase is incorrect then...
|

Thoran Karlien
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 15:09:00 -
[540]
Originally by: Swearte Widfarend I am merely accusing you of making claims without facts to support them.
Problem is, both sides are doing that in either case...
The biggest problem still lies in the nearly mandatory need to skill at least a bit into the learning skills.
Yes, there are strategical thoughts about it, but those only come into play a lot later. I haven't skilled the learnings fully nad now my current skill plan would take 2 month longer than if I had skilled them further. But to be honest, after more than 40 million sp, there isn't that much importance in squeezing out the last drop of sp/hour. At least to me. Heh, I lost far more training time when I went away from Eve while still paying for my account.
And just a few more thoughts to ponder: If learnings get removed (as certain / uncertain you feel it is) and no attribute change would compensate this, the efective value of imps is going to rise a lot. Getting +5 attribute on top of 15 is a very nice bonus, but getting it on top of 5 doubles it. An attribute compensation seems to me necessary so the gap between those being able to pay for +5s and those not being able wouldn't widen too much.
My alt chars (two of them, both on hiatus due to financial status atm) have by far better leranings than my main. Reason is, I could more easily plan those skills and wasn't in any hurry or need to get anything. I could actually play Eve with my main while my alts slowly got their learning skills. And that is to me the biggest pro for removing the learnings. Alt chars have it by far easier to actually gain those learnings than first chars ever will. They are the only ones that can really spend the time in the beginning to maximize the learnings, because the play is happening on another account.
____________________________ Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style! |
|

CryHarder
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 15:38:00 -
[541]
Worst Idea Ever.
|

Mr LaForge
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 15:42:00 -
[542]
Just remember guys, 89% of statistics are made up and the 6 studies I got that data from agree.
And no I can't link you to the studies.
/Not approved in the least.
|

Thumbs McFriday
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 19:20:00 -
[543]
I would like to suggest a slightly different solution to this problem. It's essentially no different that the original posters however old vets with all 5's in learning skills would suffer no loss.
Wipe all the learning skills. Kill the points gained in each attribute from the learning skills. Kill that 10% learning modifier from Learning. Then change the skill points per hour formula.
Currently the skill points per hour are calculated as follows: Skill Points = 60*Primary Attribute + 30*Secondary Attribute
Change it to the following: Skill Points = 990 + 66*Primary + 33*Secondary
If you are a veteran and managed to max out your learning skills you would see no slow down to learning new skills. If you have any less you would be upgraded to veteran status. The other advantage to this comes when you plug in cyber or play with your attributes in the restat screen. If you plug in a level 5 cyber you will not see your skill jump by 5.5. When you add and subtract a point from your attribute in the restat screen you will see your ending attribute gain and lose a single point. The original posters suggestion would have this effect.
-------------Cryptic Math Follows-------------- Sp = 60*P' + 30*S' P' = (P+10)*1.1 PrimarySkill+10 points from learning + 10% for the Learning skill S' = (S+10)*1.1 Sp = 60*(P+10)*1.1 + 30*(S+10)*1.1 Sp = 66*(P+10) + 33*(S+10) Sp = 66*P + 660 + 33*S + 330 Sp = 990 + 66*P + 33*S
|

Brodit
Gallente Dark Harlequin
|
Posted - 2010.08.04 20:36:00 -
[544]
Ok I've read this thread and the CSM proposal trying to get a handle on why the learning skills are so despised and adored in equal measure. Also trying to discover what CCP wants to do with the attributes that they affect: do they want to speed up, or slow down training times. That is after all, what they do and all they do.
Firstly I want to say this.
The achilles heel of every rpg since D&D of the 70's is the stats, why anyone thinks Eve should be immune is beyond me. The fact is CCP's use of the atts is inspired, you may have 30 for perception, doesn't mean you can hit anything. BUT you can train up frigate 5 in a week.
Right-o onto my conclusions.
If new players are being turned off the game because they perceive they must train learning skills just to compete this has to be addressed. New players are the lifeblood of Eve, and when Dust launches it is going to bring in a host of new players coming from that platform into ours. As an old player and a supporter of learning skills I have advised all my mates to train up learning to basic 4 adv 3. I haven't had any negative feedback from them, but as they saw the training time drop for skills they did want, they were happy.
If they are removed, then the new baseline for all stats should be around 20-22. This will give some real meaning to the attributes as well as allowing for some serious specialising through the remap feature. I suspect that virtually everybody will at some point end up with charisma of 5, making us all butt ugly, anti-social and borderline sociopaths. (and i play this game to get away from reality)
I hope you guys notice the lack of flamage between this post and my first. |

Brodit
Dark Harlequin
|
Posted - 2010.08.04 20:52:00 -
[545]
I had a look at the OP again and have changed my mind. If the compensation package is accepted I'd get 227m isk and 25m sps across all 9 chars. 3 mains maxed learning, 6 alts with an average of 1.8m sps.
Better yet, the alts would become mains by virtue of the increased atts they would get, lovely.
Where do I sign.

|

Denidil
Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn
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Posted - 2010.08.04 22:57:00 -
[546]
I support OP's proposal
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Denidil
Rape Pillage and Burn
|
Posted - 2010.08.05 23:27:00 -
[547]
helps if i remember to give the thumbs up
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Generals4
|
Posted - 2010.08.06 16:18:00 -
[548]
While i must agree the whole principle of learning skills to learn skills faster might seem redundant . It is a certain way to specialize as well. Not everyone values certain attributes the same way and might thus invest more skill points in certain attribute learning skills (my charisma learning are still quite low for example) . And it also adds a variation in skill priorities for people with short-run perspectives and long run perspectives.
Now a little idea i have thought of is maybe to make learning skills "special" skills . Instead of being forced to train them the normal way why not give a possible alternative . Like maybe mini-instant-learn skill books that would add skill points to a certain learning skill. Could be something purchasable through the LP store or rewarded from specific missions. So instead of using your training time to train the learning skills instead of "useful" skills you could be training those learning skills the other way while using the training queue for more valuable skills. Now i admit this is may not be the best well-thought idea and there might be some issues i have overlooked .
|

Aginor Foiritan
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Posted - 2010.08.06 18:59:00 -
[549]
Not supported.
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Soleil Fournier
UNFAITHFUL SHADOWS Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2010.08.06 22:23:00 -
[550]
Learning skills are a waste of time, and it is probably the single biggest contributor to new players not sticking around long enough to learn the game. As soon as you tell them how much time they have to train in learning skills that don't allow them to get into ships faster, they become disinterested.
Remove the skills, add in equivalent attributes, and credit with faster training time.
|
|

Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.07 09:42:00 -
[551]
Not supported. I dont see anything wrong with it. If it's not broken then leave it alone. Becouse we have a long list of things that are broken. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Rymunin
|
Posted - 2010.08.07 13:24:00 -
[552]
Dont play with it... it works atm so if it aint broke dont try and fix it... instead why not apply resources to fixing other problems?
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Zispur
|
Posted - 2010.08.07 21:24:00 -
[553]
Great Solution: simple and should make everyone happy!
Why has it not been done yet?
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Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari Legion..
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Posted - 2010.08.07 23:59:00 -
[554]
Learning skills were a completely ridiculous idea in the first place, but now that I'm used to my training speeds if they were to drop I would be VERY annoyed at CCP for wasting my good newbie-times training these annoying ****ty skills, unless the training was faster than it currently is.
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Thresh Avery
Best Path Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.08 02:44:00 -
[555]
Edited by: Thresh Avery on 08/08/2010 02:43:52 I actually quite like the learning skills, but i don't know why.
Regardless, they don't need to be in game and when a simple and effective solution like this one has been presented, there is no reason they shouldn't be removed.
All i would say is that instead of giving players a 10000% skill training time increase, CCP could use their new SP allocation method that they first showed off around 6 weeks ago due to the 20 hour server downtime. But of course you didn't know about that like 3 months ago. 
|

JinRogh
|
Posted - 2010.08.13 06:58:00 -
[556]
Not supported if you cant handle learning skills EVE isn't the game for you. Go play Wow with all the other impatient children.If they have to mess with the learning skills give every new player lvl 3 in all learning skills like it said in the evelopedia page I wont be happy but it wont ruin the game either.
I wanna be a physicist without going to school!! I wanna be a truck driver without getting my CDL!!
|

Xorv
|
Posted - 2010.08.13 07:41:00 -
[557]
Originally by: JinRogh Not supported if you cant handle learning skills EVE isn't the game for you. Go play Wow with all the other impatient children.If they have to mess with the learning skills give every new player lvl 3 in all learning skills like it said in the evelopedia page I wont be happy but it wont ruin the game either.
I wanna be a physicist without going to school!! I wanna be a truck driver without getting my CDL!!
How many "Learning Classes" have you taken in real life? In EVE if you want to be a Physicist you can learn Science and Physics. We don't have trucks in EVE, but if you want to fly an Industrial ship you learn the appropriate piloting skills in Space Ship Command. So WTF are learning skills? They're a time sink nothing more, there's no real correlation with learning things in real life.
Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class because like most of the pro learning skill posters your arguments are terrible and make no sense. But if you really think it would help ask at your local college/uni if you can take "the learning class" instead.
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Elpyh
Phoenix Tribe Art of Defiance
|
Posted - 2010.08.13 08:16:00 -
[558]
Yes learning skills should be removed. They kill interest from majority of new players. I tried eve trial like 3 times before I actually started playing it for real. And out of the 3 times i always quit because I didnt want to waste my whole trial for learning skills. First time I tried the game was in 2003 or 2004 and I finally subscribed on 2009 just because I somehow was able to accept the fate of not being able to do a **** for a month or so.
So if you want new players, remove them. If you dont care for new players then just leave it like this.
|

KaarBaak
Minmatar Hell's Librarians Imperium Directive
|
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:05:00 -
[559]
Originally by: Xorv
How many "Learning Classes" have you taken in real life?
Originally by: Xorv
They're a time sink nothing more, there's no real correlation with learning things in real life.
Originally by: Xorv
Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class...
Irony is a *****.
KB
=vinur allra manna
MetaGaming |

Xorv
|
Posted - 2010.08.14 01:10:00 -
[560]
Edited by: Xorv on 14/08/2010 01:10:18
Originally by: KaarBaak
Irony is a *****.
KB
Really? Perhaps you'd care to explain how what I said is in any way ironic? Or are you just another dumb troll that I ought to ignore?
|
|

Uriel Winston
|
Posted - 2010.08.14 15:15:00 -
[561]
/ Supported
you know when i was a newbie i wanted to train for some ships, a little catalyst later a thorax and since i wasn't in a corp no one told me about learning skills... so i had wasted all 1.6m sp bonus in training skills i could have got 1000% faster if i trained learning skills.
reimburse or just make the SP vanish. dont care but its completely stupid to train skills that will make you train other skills faster.
READING A BOOK DOESN'T MAKE YOU READ THE NEXT ONE FASTER
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Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.08.14 19:05:00 -
[562]
Issue passed 5/4, after much spirited debate.
If CCP does decide to change learning skills, we hope they will do it in close consultation with the CSM.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
|

Astroka
|
Posted - 2010.08.15 09:18:00 -
[563]
Personally, I like the learning skills. Your suggestion is simply "remove them and make skills train faster."
I find that the learning skills are a bit of a tactical choice, and I agree with whoever said that learning skills are a part of character specialization. Sorry, I do not support this idea.
|

Civ Zomas
Jazz Associates
|
Posted - 2010.08.15 17:56:00 -
[564]
Learning skills should go away, but I propose a slightly different implementation. It's intended to be fair to players while changing as little of the existing system as possible. The resulting attributes are identical to what you can get in the present system with fully-trained learning skills, and you won't need to grant a free remap either. Implant effects remain unchanged.
Essentially, the idea is to remove all the learning skills, boost the base attributes and KEEP the 1.1x multiplier effect (but NOT as a skill.) Here it is in detail:
1) Record the number of skill points each character has trained in the Learning category. Also record the cost of those skill books.
2) Remove the Learning (2% per level) skill.
2.1) Instead, the 1.1x multiplier effect is retained for ALL characters as though they have the skill at level 5.
3) Characters that have NEVER remapped simply have +10 added to each base attribute.
4) Characters that HAVE remapped attributes have their base attributes set to old base + respective skills (not including the 1.1x multiplier), AND THEN:
4.1) Characters who still do not have the full complement of 89 base attribute points have the balance added to their highest attributes, in accordance with the (new) remap limits:
While (you have points to add) { Add +1 to the highest base attribute below 25 }
5) Remove the remaining learning skills.
6) Refund skill points and isk to characters based on <1>.
Advantages: * No change to ultimate attribute levels * No change to implant effects. * No change to net training speed * Characters' investment in learning skills is rewarded proportionally. * No free remap needed.
Disadvantages: * Remapping feature must be modified to accommodate the new range of base attributes. * New code may be needed to make the 1.1x attribute multiplier universal. * Some changes needed to character creation and NPE
|

Raylan Jackson
|
Posted - 2010.08.15 21:28:00 -
[565]
Love this idea.
|

Andromeda Risen
|
Posted - 2010.08.16 05:25:00 -
[566]
Remove the learning skills. They are a wast of time for new players. I have 3 accounts all 5/5 (at least 3 years old each)
Get rid of them, It's a ridiculous waste of time for a new player and adds nothing to the game.
|

Allianc
Amarr Novatech Armada Mass - Effect
|
Posted - 2010.08.16 07:42:00 -
[567]
Not supported.
EVE is about our choices in the emergent sand box of New Eden. Choosing whether or not to train learning skills is a part of the essence of EVE. The need to choose between long term gain and short term gratification is what separates EVE players from the rest.
taking away learning skills is to a degree like taking away all the gunnery or spaceship command skills. Those skills also stand in the way of new players "delay[ing] gratification at a critical point in their introduction to the game". Why not just remove those and make ISK the only barrier to piloting every ship in the game perfectly?
Because then it wouldn't be EVE, and we wouldnt be playing it.
|

Weddel
|
Posted - 2010.08.16 08:46:00 -
[568]
+1
|

Dirk Smacker
|
Posted - 2010.08.16 11:05:00 -
[569]
Edited by: Dirk Smacker on 16/08/2010 11:05:38 Not supported.
Relatively new player who thinks this idea sucks. Why take the choice away?
I hope this doesn't make it to the list of "demands" like that crap PI omnibus.
|

Bhattran
|
Posted - 2010.08.16 12:19:00 -
[570]
Originally by: Xorv
Originally by: JinRogh Not supported if you cant handle learning skills EVE isn't the game for you. Go play Wow with all the other impatient children.If they have to mess with the learning skills give every new player lvl 3 in all learning skills like it said in the evelopedia page I wont be happy but it wont ruin the game either.
I wanna be a physicist without going to school!! I wanna be a truck driver without getting my CDL!!
How many "Learning Classes" have you taken in real life? In EVE if you want to be a Physicist you can learn Science and Physics. We don't have trucks in EVE, but if you want to fly an Industrial ship you learn the appropriate piloting skills in Space Ship Command. So WTF are learning skills? They're a time sink nothing more, there's no real correlation with learning things in real life.
Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class because like most of the pro learning skill posters your arguments are terrible and make no sense. But if you really think it would help ask at your local college/uni if you can take "the learning class" instead.
They are effectively +10 implants you never lose if you choose to buy the skill books and train them, meaning you can get that + to attributes with significantly less cost, isk wise, than you could buying +5's and never have to 'worry' about replacing them if you get podded.
I support this idea as I'd rather not spend time training them to get the effect when we can simply give that effect to everyone, leveling the playing field, allowing new players to benefit from them without having to rack up the millions for the advanced SOCT or deal with issues of should I train them/I can't play for a month BS. For those that put the time+isk into learning skills letting them reap the 'benefit' of accelerated SP training is also great. It would be nice if that mental exercise, balancing training learning with doing what is fun, didn't have to go as it is VERY EVE IMO but I like the OP's solution if learning skills are to go. -------------------------------------------------------------- Fanboys would make great cult members. |
|

Genghis Prime
|
Posted - 2010.08.17 21:51:00 -
[571]
|

Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
|
Posted - 2010.08.18 04:08:00 -
[572]
Originally by: Xorv
Originally by: JinRogh Not supported if you cant handle learning skills EVE isn't the game for you. Go play Wow with all the other impatient children.If they have to mess with the learning skills give every new player lvl 3 in all learning skills like it said in the evelopedia page I wont be happy but it wont ruin the game either.
I wanna be a physicist without going to school!! I wanna be a truck driver without getting my CDL!!
How many "Learning Classes" have you taken in real life? In EVE if you want to be a Physicist you can learn Science and Physics. We don't have trucks in EVE, but if you want to fly an Industrial ship you learn the appropriate piloting skills in Space Ship Command. So WTF are learning skills? They're a time sink nothing more, there's no real correlation with learning things in real life.
Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class because like most of the pro learning skill posters your arguments are terrible and make no sense. But if you really think it would help ask at your local college/uni if you can take "the learning class" instead.
Xorv I have taken class that teach you how to take notes in class and classes that teach you how to teach yourself and classes that teach you how to take test. So I would have to say that there are learning skills in real life and classes for thoughs skills. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
|
Posted - 2010.08.18 04:20:00 -
[573]
Originally by: Xorv Edited by: Xorv on 14/08/2010 01:10:18
Originally by: KaarBaak
Irony is a *****.
KB
Really? Perhaps you'd care to explain how what I said is in any way ironic? Or are you just another dumb troll that I ought to ignore?
I think she is pointing out that ""Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class... "" would probly be a learning class. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
|
Posted - 2010.08.18 04:23:00 -
[574]
Originally by: Uriel Winston / Supported
you know when i was a newbie i wanted to train for some ships, a little catalyst later a thorax and since i wasn't in a corp no one told me about learning skills... so i had wasted all 1.6m sp bonus in training skills i could have got 1000% faster if i trained learning skills.
reimburse or just make the SP vanish. dont care but its completely stupid to train skills that will make you train other skills faster.
READING A BOOK DOESN'T MAKE YOU READ THE NEXT ONE FASTER
Mybe not but there are learning classes in real life that can teach you to read faster learn faster and test faster and get better grades. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Xorv
|
Posted - 2010.08.18 10:02:00 -
[575]
Originally by: Rip Minner
I think she is pointing out that ""Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class... "" would probly be a learning class.
Then she completely missed the point. Basic Reasoning classes teach you how to present logical structured arguments and be aware of fallacies etc. It gives you something tangible. Much as a Skill in EVE like Diplomacy improves your relations with hostile Factions, or Nanite Engineering which allows you to use research agents in that field. If I spend time training one of these skills, I am learning, this is true. But then what are 'Learning Skills' and why do we need them in EVE?
There are Basic Reason Classes courses in College and Uni, they're usually part of the philosophy department and are first year courses. I've seen workshops that are effectively there to help you learn.. Learning Skills I suppose. But they're not needed nor taken by most students, and only occupy a few hours for those that do. The more appropriate representation of this would be the tutorials for starter characters, not lengthy skills that actually need to be trained for potentially months.
When you get down to it, there's only one reason for the Learning Skills in EVE and that's to add a time sink. And in that respect I understand why some of EVE's community want to keep them, because there's always been some MMORPG gamers that love time sinks and grinding that divides those that have jumped through the hoops of tedium and those who have not or will not. Perhaps to those same people this equates also to depth and choice, to the rest of us however, it is pointless tedious time sink and nothing more.
|

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.08.27 02:51:00 -
[576]
I fully support removing learning skills from the game, so new players can more quickly get at more content.
I have no problem if new players get some 'free' stuff.
I like the idea of having my skill points re-imbursed, but I won't lose sleep over it.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
|

Dont Lookatme
|
Posted - 2010.08.27 19:44:00 -
[577]
Yes. I see no real down side for old players, and the boost would be a nice boost to the new players.
|

Lucyna
Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
|
Posted - 2010.08.27 22:45:00 -
[578]
But but but but but... _________ Eve - for when I'm not playing minecraft ;) |

Valthax Kelkore
|
Posted - 2010.08.29 13:27:00 -
[579]
Not supported.
All good things come to those who wait.
The learning skills are like Pandora's Box. They're here and now they can't get rid of them. Additionally, with 20 pages of debate, CCP is probably questioning the legitimacy of such a decision at this point.
|

Viribus
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
|
Posted - 2010.08.29 18:48:00 -
[580]
Edited by: Viribus on 29/08/2010 18:48:54
Originally by: Valthax Kelkore Not supported.
All good things come to those who wait.
That's why we have regular skills. They're a clear demonstration of time spent vs. reward, the reward being whatever the skills allow you to do. Except learning skills, which:
A) Only widen the already-massive gap between new and old players, and frankly the playing field could use a little leveling.
B) Have no affect on gameplay whatsoever. It's a needless sink of ~1 month of training that slows down the already-glacial pace of the game for newbies.
C) Only serve to lock characters into career paths. CCP has demonstrated, with the removal of racial skill bonuses, that they want characters to have the option to go into different career paths whenever they choose; having training skills heavily invested into one area discourages players from expanding to different areas.
Honestly I don't see why they exist at all other than for the sake of roleplayers. I'm no longer a newbie but I could see why new players would be turned off the game because they have even more catching up to do.
|
|

John'eh
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
|
Posted - 2010.09.01 10:58:00 -
[581]
Not supported.
This is what separates the great minds from the common masses.. the 2 year old player with no learning skills and the month old noob able to learn anything fast. To do this would harm eve in the wors way possible by making it safer, easier, brighter. It would be un-Eve-Like. - John'eh
Your Critics Are Your Best Friends, because they help you find your faults and help you improve to be better. Don't take my criticisms personally, I care about Eve just as much as you |

count sporkula
|
Posted - 2010.09.01 16:47:00 -
[582]
Edited by: count sporkula on 01/09/2010 16:48:00 what about possibly rearranging learning skills. instead of a + to attributes maybe it instead gives a boost to train a specific skill group of your choice? and instead of a actively earned skill make it a passively gained bonus given to people after a certain subscription age? with a max of 5 groups with a bonus.
this way instead of rewarding you for spending time else ware it rewards you for staying with the game.
what i mean is after a character has been subscribed for 1 month, 6 months 1 year, 1.5 years, and finally 2 years gets a bonus to train a skill group... it rewards those who stay with the game. and this does not include unsubscribed time (i.e. have the account for 2 years with no subscription) nor would a break in the time affect it (example: you subscribe for 6 months take off 3 months and then subscribe again for 9 months would mean you get the 1 month, 6 month , and 1 year bonus.
i doubt i was clear enough for others to understand but what of that as a possibility? although i'm probably crazy and that is ok to.
|

SickSeven
Ankaa.
|
Posted - 2010.09.01 18:45:00 -
[583]
It is the best idea yet. You died at the fittings screen, you just hand't realized it yet - Mr. Cue |

Newbee
|
Posted - 2010.09.03 00:36:00 -
[584]
NOT supporting... there are people ingame that had to wait and proof patience ( what is a big part about eve in general from my point of view ) to train them all up to level 5 ... it would be really unfair to those who did that and no just reassigning the SP to other skills is NOT a solution for this for one good reason... some people trained them to level 5 to have a bonus in long term... other did NOT train them up but other skills instead and will now recieve the same bonus??? ... these are the wishes of people that just dont have the patience to wait training skills...
--> NO plz DONT do this
|

Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
|
Posted - 2010.09.03 03:52:00 -
[585]
Originally by: Newbee NOT supporting... there are people ingame that had to wait and proof patience ( what is a big part about eve in general from my point of view ) to train them all up to level 5 ... it would be really unfair to those who did that and no just reassigning the SP to other skills is NOT a solution for this for one good reason... some people trained them to level 5 to have a bonus in long term... other did NOT train them up but other skills instead and will now recieve the same bonus??? ... these are the wishes of people that just dont have the patience to wait training skills...
--> NO plz DONT do this
Quoted for truth!
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Cy Kopath
|
Posted - 2010.09.03 11:44:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Newbee NOT supporting... there are people ingame that had to wait and proof patience ( what is a big part about eve in general from my point of view ) to train them all up to level 5 ... it would be really unfair to those who did that and no just reassigning the SP to other skills is NOT a solution for this for one good reason... some people trained them to level 5 to have a bonus in long term... other did NOT train them up but other skills instead and will now recieve the same bonus??? ... these are the wishes of people that just dont have the patience to wait training skills...
--> NO plz DONT do this
Wood for the trees perhaps? The player who trained to level V receives more of a bonus than the person that only trained them to IV. Firstly they would get more reimbursed SP than the latter pilot (which you state isn't enough), however they have also received the benefit of faster training time over that level IV pilot since they trained their skills to V.
The only people I see objecting to this are the "I had to eat gruel as a child, so you should too" bunch. Learning skills provide nothing but a divider between the old and the new players. If the learning skills are taken away you lose nothing, what you are upset about is that other people are getting something that you already have.
|

Ramon Wilco
Caldari Psycho Corp
|
Posted - 2010.09.03 12:00:00 -
[587]
I dont see the problem of learning skills...
I have all learning at 5, my best friend didnt train more than lvl 3 for advanced...
Noob that join our corpo use evemon to see when they can gain some training time on skill plans to see when they sould train some lvl of learning ... (This way they play faster, and they dont go for 2 month of stupid "only learning" training.
There are plenty ways to improve the skill rating, and plenty of ways to loose SP and time (how many time i cant skill at higher rate cause beeing poded and have no implants ? lol).
So let the learning as the way it is, please :)
Best regards Fear your incomprehension, but love the differences. Ramon Wilco |

Mayham Jack
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2010.09.03 19:34:00 -
[588]
not supported,
|

K5K AnimalMother
Syndicate Worlds
|
Posted - 2010.09.05 15:09:00 -
[589]
I would enjoy spending the 4mil sp I have there in the same way we were allowed to after the 31 hour downtime :)
I would love to see this happen as soon as possible.
|

Missa d'Orrin
|
Posted - 2010.09.05 16:53:00 -
[590]
Yes, but only if the SP's are reimbursed.
Old chars won't mind (small percentage in learners). New char with no learners won't mind(small percentage in learners). New char WITH learners doesn't get screwed over for 50%+ of his SP's.
|
|

Jane Dozer
|
Posted - 2010.09.05 21:34:00 -
[591]
Edited by: Jane Dozer on 05/09/2010 21:34:27 Supported.
|

TheWarpGhost
|
Posted - 2010.09.06 13:36:00 -
[592]
Supported. Im much more interested in newer players being able to get into the game fully more quickly, than the effectively abstract concept of lvl5/+5s characters fractionally catching up with older players with only lvl4/+4s over an X years timeline of strict focused training regimes.
I'd rather play EVE than EVEmon.
|

Gyro DuAquin1
Ev0ke
|
Posted - 2010.09.06 14:47:00 -
[593]
short: no
long answer: nnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooo
This discussion has been going on for years alsways with the same arguments
- new players hate it - old players forgot about it - players that have maxed it dont care
First of all the new players that dont like to skill weeks and weeks for the rest of their eve life for a certrain purpose - this is not your game, move along.
This game is all about having to train weeks and weeks and weeks for certrain ships/mods/stats/aspects. Learnings are a part of this very concept. You cant grind it and you cant get a premium account. So as i said move along nothing to see here. Eve is the only MMO that has this concept and if you dont like it there is something else for you out there.
Also these are pretty much the only skill that will help your throughout your whole eve existance. Other skills might be helpfull to but learning in general will always be helpful. As in my times as a recruiter and mentor for newer players i told new ppl that it would be smart to have learning from the start up - but not everything we do in life is smart. So I told them get to a ship that will be handy for a few days and then train your learnings. Also learnings are a good time to sort out where you wanna go, in eve there are tons of possible ways and finding the right one for you will take some time.
In general Eve training from time to time is pain in the ass. Depending on how long you are in the game the pain differs, at the beginning a few days are a pain, then two weeks are a pain, then you get to the point that you dont care how long it takes cause its waht you want to learn.
New players dont need to train Learnings. At some point it might become handy, but before that you can easily train your first cruiser and do whatever you like. You probally lag the money to but one but you can train one, lose it and be frustrated about it and leave the game after 2 days.
|

Longtime Luver
The.Usual.Suspects OWN Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.09.06 19:46:00 -
[594]
/signed You don't read sigs do you? |

ImmaSplodeYou
|
Posted - 2010.09.06 20:12:00 -
[595]
They're kinda unnecessary. The less time spent preparing to prepare to play the game the better.
I support Attribute implants though, because they provide a carrot-and-stick to get enough money or LP for them and such. However, I would happily compromise and get rid of those if it meant we could axe learning skills
|

Tido Maliyu
Cobalt Dragon Exploration Company
|
Posted - 2010.09.08 04:20:00 -
[596]
After 5 years I only have them at 5/4... and really I don't care. The new account I'm playing from scratch doesn't really have an issue with it either; no reason to train them all at once...
|

Haxfar Portlaind
|
Posted - 2010.09.14 19:05:00 -
[597]
Not to necro a post, but i just want to say i agree
|

Lord Wilding
EdgeGamers
|
Posted - 2010.09.14 20:29:00 -
[598]
Originally by: John'eh Not supported.
This is what separates the great minds from the common masses.. the 2 year old player with no learning skills and the month old noob able to learn anything fast. To do this would harm eve in the wors way possible by making it safer, easier, brighter. It would be un-Eve-Like.
What exactly would make this harm EVE? If anything, it would help EVE by creating a lower dropout rate of new players. This means a larger population base over time which means a healthier MMO which means more development which means I could add an almost infinite amount of "which means" to this sentence. This topic has been brought up numerous times throughout the years and getting rid of learning skills completely always has more benefits than disadvantages.
Supported.
|

Starchain
|
Posted - 2010.09.14 23:08:00 -
[599]
Not supported.
New players must deal with learning skills like everyone else did before them.
|

Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 03:00:00 -
[600]
Edited by: Ultim8Evil on 15/09/2010 03:05:13 20 pages = tl;dr
I had to train the learning skills many years ago, much like every other older player.
Why should new players not do the same?
Are CCP that desperate to get more players that they are willing to screw over the older ones?
If it worked 6 years ago, why are we fixing it now?
New players already get a 1.6 Mill SP training boost and neural remaps have been introduced for n00bs who ****ed up their attributes at character creation or want to change career paths.
EVE is about having patience and carefully developing your character over an extended period, which should involve time and effort.
Having said that, if they do get removed, my attributes stay the same, and I get 4 Mill SP to put wherever I like, topic supported. 
I don't give a **** about the learning skills as such: Just the SP/Time I have invested in them, the time they have saved me so far, and the time they will save me in the future.
[EDIT]
Also, this thread is approaching 4 months old and the the CSM submission is 2 months old and still has "TBA" under the Meeting Minutes.
Has this gotten any further than the forum flame war and trolling stage yet? 
If you're reading this, you've read too far and now you're on my sig. Concentrate on what I said before you got to this bit. Ok? |
|

D Scan
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 23:52:00 -
[601]
Approved.
|

Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.09.16 00:05:00 -
[602]
Originally by: Ultim8Evil Also, this thread is approaching 4 months old and the the CSM submission is 2 months old and still has "TBA" under the Meeting Minutes.
That's sort of an obsolete item in CSM proposal pages, since typically these days we just publish the raw meeting notes. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, you'll see it passed 5/4 -- and is in the "In Process" category.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
|

Koketsu
|
Posted - 2010.09.17 14:25:00 -
[603]
supported, provided I get the 13.5 million or so skill points(3 accounts ) I've spent on them back one way or another, and I really don't care if they just give it to me outright, or just increase the training speed until the difference is made up. how soon is this likely to actually happen?
yes, I'm posting on an alt. I prefer my stupidity not be directly linked to my corp |

Anidis
|
Posted - 2010.09.18 14:40:00 -
[604]
Originally by: Newbee NOT supporting... there are people ingame that had to wait and proof patience ( what is a big part about eve in general from my point of view ) to train them all up to level 5 ... it would be really unfair to those who did that and no just reassigning the SP to other skills is NOT a solution for this for one good reason... some people trained them to level 5 to have a bonus in long term... other did NOT train them up but other skills instead and will now recieve the same bonus??? ... these are the wishes of people that just dont have the patience to wait training skills...
--> NO plz DONT do this
quote for the truth. Would be a bad day. this would not be the end. And this game is getting easier and easier. I mean they have a training boost until 1,6m sp. and if they don't want to train learnings they don't have to. Isn't it easy enough? Once eve gamer were proud that eve is complex. please don't destroy it.
|

Stromfresser
|
Posted - 2010.09.19 03:19:00 -
[605]
Originally by: Koketsu
how soon is this likely to actually happen?
This will hopefully never happen! Please don't do it... be fair to the players that did / do spend the time on training those "useless" skills! No really no please do NOT
Just reimburse someone with other skills is not an option for me that i accept! Grow up and show patience people seriously...
|

CutsLawn
|
Posted - 2010.09.19 03:22:00 -
[606]
Supported, work this out ccp!
|

Dian Rasd
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.09.19 15:35:00 -
[607]
Supported.
Just make it go away, man.
|

Haiden Po
|
Posted - 2010.09.19 17:07:00 -
[608]
Not supported.
An alternative:
Make the acquisition of learning skills passive.
They climb to level 5 a little bit at a time while you train other skills.
If you are training a skill that uses perception and memory-then while you stay in those types of skills your perception and memory increases. |

El Mauru
Dead poets society The Laughing Men
|
Posted - 2010.09.19 17:47:00 -
[609]
learning skills are pretty silly Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
|
Posted - 2010.09.19 18:04:00 -
[610]
Not supported. I like learning skills. It should have more of them to make long-term plans of a character's skills more interesting. --
|
|

Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
|
Posted - 2010.09.19 18:30:00 -
[611]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 19/09/2010 18:34:33 I dont want them removed. But the fact that CCP as let CSM put it in the "In Process" on the mins and the fact that they showed a real tool for leting players place skill points were they wish. Makes be belive that its realy in the In Process and CCP is for real this time. As much as I hate thinking about that I will post how I would like it to go down.
ò1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes
10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.
ò2. Remove all learning skills.
Like they never existed.
ò3. SP which player had been invested in Learning skills will probly be be given back to the player just like they did before with the server down. And they will probly give you all SP's in all Learning skills form all 3 toons but I think the tool is limited in that if you have max learning skills on all 3 toons thats 15mil+ sp's that all 15mil + sp's will be giving to the toon with the most skill points. I think its becouse the tool is limited to giving it to only one toon on the account and the main toon is normly the one with the most sp's so thats why. Thats just what I belive by want was seen of the tool before.
My main accout is just like that all 3 toons have max learning skills and +5 implants for fast learning. Thats 16,128,000 sp's. going to my main toon. Can we say instant Cap Pilot lolz.
This is how I look at 16mil sp's as 16mons worth of training time. At max learning and +5 implants I train over 1mil sp's each month. My main toon will jump ahead 16mons worth of training time. So this mite not be all that bad and it will make is super easy to train my alt toons on my other account. As before I always spent the first 3-4 mons training first for +5 implants and then max learning skills now I can just train for +5 implants and jump right to what I want my alt to be doing.
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Lord Valian
|
Posted - 2010.09.20 01:00:00 -
[612]
Yes CCP please remove the learning skills ASAP. Its a complete insanity that you have to spend a month training a skill which gives you no real gain except if you plan your skills years ahead.
I have 2 Mil SP in Learning, and everytime I look at them I rage hard due to the time spent on training sh*t when I could have trained something fun. I spent months training learning skills w/o actually playing, cause I felt I had to in order to be able to enjoy the game. GOD. Just remove the skills so no one else has to suffer through the same horrible experience as I did when I first started this game. Please hurry up too.
|

Tessa light
|
Posted - 2010.09.20 10:56:00 -
[613]
Not Supported! Learning Skills are fine as they are...
|

Azmith
Caldari New-Roots
|
Posted - 2010.09.20 11:00:00 -
[614]
Seriously do not do this... just think about the future...
What comes next... ???
--> reduce the rank of Capital ships to rank 5 and Advanced Spaceship Command down to rank 2 ...
and everything because people dont show patience...
|

Theel Maas
The Praxis Initiative Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.09.20 21:46:00 -
[615]
Learning skills do more harm than good. Out with them.
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zcar300
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Posted - 2010.09.20 23:11:00 -
[616]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 25/05/2010 15:49:58 I've weighed in n the learning skills argument before, and I'm still on the same side now. There's nothing wrong with learning skills.
What needs to be changed is people's perception of their neccessity, but that would require changing the basic human nature of min/maxing in games where possible.
So I will simply say what I have always said:
You do not NEED to train learning skills, not even to be competitive, especially in the short term.
Let's face it, if two characters are facing off against each other in combat and they both have a total of 5 million Skill Points in the points relevant to that particular fight, does it really matter how long it took them to accumulate those skill points? Of course not - what will matter is how the points are applied - IOW, the player's skill at effectively using those points to reach the desired outcome. I would say that, if anything, the character that took longer getting there has an adavantage, because he has had more of an opportunity to hone the skills required to effectively apply those points.
What learning skills do is allow for a margin of error. They allow your opponent to mis calculate, instead of being able to look at a character and go "Oh he's six months old, he has exactly X skill points". You can still do that, but there's a wider margin of error because you're not sure how much learning he has applied, which shifts the total up or down.
Not supported.
Leave learning skills the way they are
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lady cilia
Caldari Caldari Advanced Laboratory
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Posted - 2010.09.22 16:59:00 -
[617]
NOT SUPPORTED.
Learning skills are fine. You have to spend some time to get something back. If you don't want to train it, it is your loss if you play this game for a longer time.
And the reason "new players will stay with a higher chance" is a bad reason, cause you have no proof. Even if they stay, what will happen to them? They could think, hey EVE is an easy game, i get what i want.
EVE is NOT an easy game. Think one GM wrote it years ago: EVE is a dark harsh place.
It is easier for noobs at the beginning. They have the skill boost until 1.6 m sp and they can use neural remap two times.
Now you want to change learning skills. what is next? rank 12 skills? Leadershipskills?
Please CCP do NOT change it.
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Grammador
Amarr Monkey Infernus Clan
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Posted - 2010.09.22 23:48:00 -
[618]
I realize that the votes have been cast and the decision appears to be made. However, I have one question. And I beleive it to be a rather impotant question at that. Will redistribution of SP be limited Toon Specific, or will this be account based in which the account is given any learning SP from any of the 1-3 Toons on the account?
IF the learning skills go away, and CCP gives us up to the 5,376,000 skill points to redistribute as we feel fit, AND ITS TOON SPECIFIC, I think that is fair and I am sure that anyone out there that has learned the full 5,376,000 skill points in learning can find a nice home for them.
HOWEVER, If this will not be TOON SPECIFIC, and all Learning SP can be distributed from all three toons on the account to any ONE toon on the account, I have a major issue with that, as up to 16,128,000 SP can be diverted from three toons on the account to make one supertoon.
IF that is how the mechanic of redistribution will work, please let me know and run out to the Character Bazaar, and start bidding on characters that have nothing but learning SP maxed out.
Seriously, all sarcasim aside, I would like to know how this would be implemented. Toon Specific = Good; we still keep every SP that we have earned. Account based = NOT GOOD, go back to the drawing board.
MAKE WAR. . . Save the love for downtime / Grammador |

Sooche Mo'Freed
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Posted - 2010.09.23 00:03:00 -
[619]
Not Supported. This will not help player retention. Quite the opposite.
No the decision has not been made. The only decision that was made was that the csm should approach CCP about it.
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VC General
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Posted - 2010.09.23 05:03:00 -
[620]
Yeah, I don't see how removing learning skills and attribute implants is any different or better than what I proposed, which is scrapping attributes completely. If you get rid of those things, we'll be down to 6 numbers and remaps. That makes it nothing more than a system to discourage players from training skills in a more balanced manner, instead of training similar skills in year long blocks for min/maxing purposes.
Telling a new player they have to train 2 months of learning skills to get the best results, isn't that much different than telling them after those 2 months are over, they then need to train 6 months of int/mem fitting skills they don't need yet, in order to save that 2nd remap purely for ship and weapons training.
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Serenity Goru
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Posted - 2010.09.23 05:13:00 -
[621]
Learning skills are an admitted bad idea. Burn them with fire and help retain more new players.
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Sepheir Sepheron
Legion..
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Posted - 2010.09.23 05:14:00 -
[622]
I would be 100% satisfied, because I could get my friends to play without using most of their trial not doing anything.
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DALLAM
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.09.23 19:13:00 -
[623]
Edited by: DALLAM on 23/09/2010 19:18:02 It does take away from the complexity. But is the complexity there for a reason? Most games have the reason that behind training your skill is the foundation of attributes, as you know, such as intelligence, dexterity, etc. But those attributes don't allow you to train faster; rather, they allow you to perform your job my efficiently.
That's not the case with learning skills, which only allow you to train skill points faster. That may have been the only thing that wasn't really thought out in this brilliant game, when implemented. An even larger problem, as mentioned in the original information, is that it makes getting people to stay with the game much harder. It already has a huge learning curve.
This is what i propose as a solution: A Modifier Level 5 Learning Level. Cut the max learning level to level 4, which would give the player the same maximum training speed as level 5. The last level (level 5) gives the player a 3% increase in whatever attribute is used for a particular job. For instance, if a primary attribute on a particular weapon is Intelligence, then you would get a 3% increase in damage for having Intelligence at level 5. The secondary attribute would add another 2%--if it were level 5 also--for a total modifier of 5%. And in order to make it something that would entice newer players to strive for w/o making the game unnecessarily hard in the beginning, is to double or triple the training time of that last level from where it is now. That way you have maximum training speed after level 4, and you don't have to train the modifier level until you are further into game play, while that last modifier level takes a really long time to train, and would be considered an elite skill for advanced players. SYSTEM: MB: Gigabyte X58 UD5 Vid: BFG GTX295 CPU: i7 920 RAM: OCZ Gold XTC 2GBs/x6 (12GB)
--- DALLAM |

Xorv
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 20:00:00 -
[624]
I'm all for a complex skill system that makes a player have to really think, plan, and make difficult choices, but the current Learning skills do NOT do this. So, not exactly convincing rationale for keeping Learnign Skills as they are.
Want a genuinely complex, interesting, and fun skill system... Make it have real specialization that can't be overcome with time and accumulation of more skill points. In order to be the best at X your going to have to sacrifice being suboptimal in either Y or Z. Tie the ability to use some skills to faction standings, maybe for a few even regional sovereignty.
Learning skills as they are now are nothing more than a meaningless grind that new players if they're interested in taking the optimal path (most MMO gamers) are forced to train.
Remove Them!
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Torrent Talon
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Posted - 2010.09.23 21:32:00 -
[625]
Originally by: Anidis
Originally by: Newbee NOT supporting... there are people ingame that had to wait and proof patience ( what is a big part about eve in general from my point of view ) to train them all up to level 5 ... it would be really unfair to those who did that and no just reassigning the SP to other skills is NOT a solution for this for one good reason... some people trained them to level 5 to have a bonus in long term... other did NOT train them up but other skills instead and will now recieve the same bonus??? ... these are the wishes of people that just dont have the patience to wait training skills...
--> NO plz DONT do this
ok,please i thought people in eve had common sense. Just think about it, if CCP were to remove learning skills they would not give all people a certain amount of SP they will implement a set of maybe up to 100 scripts to tally APIs that have a certain amount of SP in the learning skills category and refund that amount of SP to the characters that did train these and none to people who didn't. so it's basically win, win for people that did and lose, lose for people that didn't
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.24 00:56:00 -
[626]
Originally by: Grammador I realize that the votes have been cast and the decision appears to be made. However, I have one question. And I beleive it to be a rather impotant question at that. Will redistribution of SP be limited Toon Specific, or will this be account based in which the account is given any learning SP from any of the 1-3 Toons on the account?
This is an interesting point, and if CCP indicates that they are considering dumping learning skills, I will recommend they think about the potential consequences. However, the effect may not be all that horrible, as most accounts have one toon with most of the learning skillpoints, and those points do represent roughly the same amount of training time no matter how they were distributed. Also, most people would put the points into their mains.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.09.24 06:05:00 -
[627]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 24/09/2010 06:12:44 Edited by: Rip Minner on 24/09/2010 06:08:34
Originally by: DALLAM Edited by: DALLAM on 23/09/2010 19:18:30 Edited by: DALLAM on 23/09/2010 19:18:02 This is what I propose as a solution: A Modifier Level 5 Learning Level. Cut the max learning level to level 4, which would give the player the same maximum training speed as level 5. The last level (level 5) gives the player a 3% increase in whatever attribute is used for a particular job. For instance, if a primary attribute on a particular weapon is Intelligence, then you would get a 3% increase in damage for having Intelligence at level 5. The secondary attribute would add another 2%--if it were level 5 also--for a total modifier of 5%. And in order to make it something that would entice newer players to strive for w/o making the game unnecessarily hard in the beginning, is to double or triple the training time of that last level from where it is now. That way you have maximum training speed after level 4, and you don't have to train the modifier level until you are further into game play, while that last modifier level takes a really long time to train, and would be considered an elite skill for advanced players.
I like this ideal but I had level 4 skills before I had level 5 skills. Belive it or not thoughs 2 points make a noticeable differnts. So I would not wish to lose them. You have 3% and 2% thats 5%. 5% over 10 levels worth of skill could be simply added as 0.5% each level and would make each level trained more usefull and mybe even fun too. This is hands down the best ideal I have seen to date. This is what I would do to make everyone happy or happyer.
Edit: 5% my be to much or to little so what ever is ok with max skills just spread it out over all 10 levels. You mite even or probly would wieght it out so you got better or more benift from the higher ranking learning skills too. Edit2: Another good ideal to make them usefull more then they are is adding them as preq. On some iteams or other skills. Notable would be Socal skills for trading/Socal skills. Int/Memory for Sciance i.e. I aways belive it's better to fix content then to remove it.
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Torrent Talon
|
Posted - 2010.09.24 07:17:00 -
[628]
Originally by: Sooche Mo'Freed Not Supported. This will not help player retention. Quite the opposite.
No the decision has not been made. The only decision that was made was that the csm should approach CCP about it.
Well that's a **** argument it won't help retention? Why not no reasons given you are simply flaming and being annoying please save us the "OMGWTF this guys stupidly ******" feeling we all get from reading comments made by people like you.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.09.24 09:40:00 -
[629]
Supported.
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Sooche Mo'Freed
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Posted - 2010.09.24 13:51:00 -
[630]
Originally by: Torrent Talon
Well that's a **** argument it won't help retention? Why not no reasons given you are simply flaming and being annoying please save us the "OMGWTF this guys stupidly ******" feeling we all get from reading comments made by people like you.
Every player I have trained is still playing the game. Once the players saw the benefit of investing time in learning skills and how it helps them in long term they were encouraged by it. I have never had anyone put off by learning skills not once.
Plenty of people really dont like reading your stupidly ******ed comments.
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Torrent Talon
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Posted - 2010.09.24 15:55:00 -
[631]
Edited by: Torrent Talon on 24/09/2010 15:55:30
Originally by: Sooche Mo'Freed
Originally by: Torrent Talon
Well that's a **** argument it won't help retention? Why not no reasons given you are simply flaming and being annoying please save us the "OMGWTF this guys stupidly ******" feeling we all get from reading comments made by people like you.
Every player I have trained is still playing the game. Once the players saw the benefit of investing time in learning skills and how it helps them in long term they were encouraged by it. I have never had anyone put off by learning skills not once.
Plenty of people really dont like reading your stupidly ******ed comments.
just think about all those noobs that come from games like wow where doing something grants immediate gratification those types of people don't want to spend the first month of the game training skills and seeing the reward 6 months later, they just want to actually play the game. CCP want a larger playerebase so they are helping the retention of former wowies and the like.
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Viribus
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.09.25 02:19:00 -
[632]
Loling at all the fossils in here with 3-4 accounts saying this will somehow turn the EVE into WoW.
Being free from any defined career path is one of the main things that separate EVE from lesser MMOs. Being able to compete with far older and more experienced characters is another.
Learning skills and attributes in general encourage specialization and have led to our current situation of having every min-maxing grognard in EVE thinking it necessary to have a zillion accounts to experience every nuance EVE has to offer.
Furthermore, learning skills only serve to broaden the already massive rift between old and new players, who have no hope of catching up anyway, regardless of learning skills.
Specialization is for insects. Learning skills run against the spirit of eve.
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Conal Orion
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Posted - 2010.09.25 03:33:00 -
[633]
Part 1 of 2.
There have been several threads regarding Learning Skills. Most have included some very good arguments both for their removal and for their being left in the game.
This post does not concern itself with either opinion camp. It is a consideration of the following:
If CCP believes that the 'potential new player perception' of the Learning Skills mechanic discourages new players, and if CCP wishes to address that perception directly, here is a possible method. This method focuses on the actual problem. The problem is NOT the Learning Skill system. The problem is the waiting time that new players perceive is necessary to become competent players.
I assign no "right" or "wrong" to the perception. The purpose of this post is not to judge, but to suggest a solution. The solution is called "Taking them out, by leaving them in".
Premises, based upon previous threads and from reading CCP Dev blogs about resource allocation:
(1) The method should not involve a huge commitment of programmer resources. CCP has already indicated that they have many teams working on many other items. Therefore, it should involve existing mechanics and tech, as much as possible.
(2) The method should not reduce player choice or force players into a "cookie cutter" or "one way to win" mode.
(3) New players should be encouraged to become knowledgable about skill choices before they have invested a huge amount of time or skillpoints.
(4) Simple removal of the Learning Skill system might be considered by many players of longtime duration to have a high impact on the benefits that they accrued by investing time and skill points in the old system. New players should not just get something "for free" that older ones did not.
Suggestion, if CCP is considering doing this at all:
(1) On the inception date of the new "patch", all players currently playing EVE online will receive a device capable of adding skill points (not time, but points) to skills. CCP already has such a device as evidenced by the 100 000 SP "skill stick". The amount will be discussed below. it is up to the CSM and CCP to decide whether this will be one stick per account, or one stick per trained character on the account.
(2) Starting immediately after this event, any new character in EVE that "graduates" from the full set of instructional tutorials put in place by CCP, will then receive an identical "skill stick". The hope is that experiencing all of the tutorials will at least give completely new players some ideas of the very many possibilities for careers, income and entertainment in EVE. There are already "graduation" flags in the game, so this should not be hard to flag either. A new tutorial, explaining the significance of the Learning Skills, is recommended.
(3) The current Learning Skill system will be left in place exactly as it is.
The "free" skill point amount is suggested to be around 3 000 000 (3 million) SP. The player is still completely free as to how and where the points are spent. The choice will then be: whether to make an immediate entry into one or more skill paths, or whether to spend some or all of the points on Learning Skills. The decisions and the potential for "right" or "wrong" choices will still be there. But for those new players that feel that they do not wish to lag behind over the long term, they may make the decision to favour Learning Skills instead of immediate gain. Or, they may decide to favour immediate gain instead, in one quick decision.
(Continued in Part 2.)
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Conal Orion
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Posted - 2010.09.25 03:36:00 -
[634]
Part 2 of 2.
In other words, this suggestion does not change the fundamental game mechanic at all, but removes the initial "play time lag"-- if, and only if, the player wishes to take learning skills.
Rationale: 3 000 000 SP is not enough to "max out" all the Learning Skills, but it is enough to complete a large portion of them. The possible outcomes will then be:
(1) Existing player with maximum learning skills: 3 000 000 SP to spend on current plan or "off-plan" skills.
(2) Existing player with some, but not all Learning skills. Apportion the points as above, or use some to further your Learning Skills, if you now think that is worthwhile.
(3) Existing player with no Learning Skills, or new player with none: decide if you wish to increase your long term learning rate, or have a fair number of immediately useful skills, or a combination of the two-- just like everyone else had to decide before.
There is, of course, still a "negative impact" for people that maximized their Learning Skills early on-- 3 000 000 SP are not as impressive if you already have 60 000 000, whereas they seem like a gift of the Aesir if you have very few SP. However, it should be noted that the "younger" folks still have exactly the same conundrum as the "older" ones did. They can get into that shiny ship and maybe have a couple of income skills, or they can get the learning out of the way, but not have the instant gratification.
At that point, it becomes a choice, not whether or not to play EVE, but how to play it. The entry barrier is gone, but not the decision.
This suggestion could be tweaked and massaged a number of ways (including throwing it out entirely), but if there actually is a problem with a "Learning Skills Barrier", then it is my hope that this suggestion addresses the problem with being unduly hurtful to any particular camp in the game, either the "haves" or the "have-nots".
It is not my intent to preach or to be hurtful, but simply to suggest what I hope is a "clean" and simple method, if CCP is actually considering the change. If they are not, I have wasted my time and, more sadly, yours, reader-- in which case, sorry.
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Frakir Shedimbirut
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Posted - 2010.09.29 12:10:00 -
[635]
Why not give the new players the learning skills pre-trained to level 4. This should give enough training speed to make the starting easy, but not remove the question 'Should I train a learning skill to L5 and gain benefits in the future, or should I go with a more immediate skill?'. Also, the older players, who already trained them the hard way should receive the equivalent SP back (+a little bonus? [optional]) and the ISK for the advanced books (which might not matter for a 2 year old char, but will make a difference for a 3 months old one).
Also, not supporting the original proposition, but the need to do something about the Learning Skills.
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ViolenTUK
Gallente Demolition Men
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Posted - 2010.09.29 16:46:00 -
[636]
Originally by: Frakir Shedimbirut Why not give the new players the learning skills pre-trained to level 4. This should give enough training speed to make the starting easy, but not remove the question 'Should I train a learning skill to L5 and gain benefits in the future, or should I go with a more immediate skill?'. Also, the older players, who already trained them the hard way should receive the equivalent SP back (+a little bonus? [optional]) and the ISK for the advanced books (which might not matter for a 2 year old char, but will make a difference for a 3 months old one).
Also, not supporting the original proposition, but the need to do something about the Learning Skills.
Very sensible. Quite simply the option that will anger the least amount of people.
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Atigone
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Posted - 2010.09.30 13:04:00 -
[637]
I think it was a good idea to implement them but for new players it is surely better when they start with learnings at lv4 so that they can conzentrate on there playing style.
sry for my poor english
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Wen Jaibao
PAX AUGUSTA
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Posted - 2010.10.03 19:04:00 -
[638]
Originally by: Lord Valian Yes CCP please remove the learning skills ASAP. Its a complete insanity that you have to spend a month training a skill which gives you no real gain except if you plan your skills years ahead.
I have 2 Mil SP in Learning, and everytime I look at them I rage hard due to the time spent on training sh*t when I could have trained something fun. I spent months training learning skills w/o actually playing, cause I felt I had to in order to be able to enjoy the game. GOD. Just remove the skills so no one else has to suffer through the same horrible experience as I did when I first started this game. Please hurry up too.
QFT
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Zurrk
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Posted - 2010.10.04 17:54:00 -
[639]
Let CCP concentrate on far more important issues, the learning skills have been in play since the start. Leave it alone.
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Sanche Tehkeli
Gallente Bionesis Technologies Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.10.05 08:29:00 -
[640]
Against this proposal. |
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Cupio Mortem
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Posted - 2010.10.10 08:37:00 -
[641]
Originally by: Lord Valian Yes CCP please remove the learning skills ASAP. Its a complete insanity that you have to spend a month training a skill which gives you no real gain except if you plan your skills years ahead.
I have 2 Mil SP in Learning, and everytime I look at them I rage hard due to the time spent on training sh*t when I could have trained something fun. I spent months training learning skills w/o actually playing, cause I felt I had to in order to be able to enjoy the game. GOD. Just remove the skills so no one else has to suffer through the same horrible experience as I did when I first started this game. Please hurry up too.
QFT again...plus learning skills kept 2 of my friends from starting to play Eve entirely...dropping learning skills will make me less lonely online yo!
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D Lysergic
|
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:45:00 -
[642]
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Fournone
|
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:29:00 -
[643]
Edited by: Fournone on 16/10/2010 00:32:56 On the fence whether CCP should remove learning skills or not, but I would accept this as an alternative to them if I had to choose.
P.S. I do have many many skill points into learning, all basic to 5 and all adv to 4. You won't beleive how long this took to get! It was almost as bad as training for hulk! I feel that i wasted too much time in learning skills, yet I do feel that (hopefully) it will pay off.
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Running missions
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Posted - 2010.10.16 00:58:00 -
[644]
this would help new players out, when people tell them, train learning skills for your first month and a half they usually quit or dont do it lol
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Lex Starwalker
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Posted - 2010.10.16 05:14:00 -
[645]
As a new player who took the time to get almost all the learning skills to 5, I don't think there's anything wrong with them. They don't need to be "fixed". That said, if CCP does decide to remove them, this idea is better than the others I've seen.
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Davelantor
The Hunt United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.16 07:25:00 -
[646]
I am davelantor and I approve of this message.
This is something of a hot patch thing ... can be VERY easily implemented. But with the new system to have free SP to distribute around etc. .. this can even be MORE EASILY implemented. Just delete all the learning skills, and give the player the attributes. but also give them the SP spent. That way, everybody is happy !!!
The Hunt |

ViolenTUK
Gallente Demolition Men
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Posted - 2010.10.16 10:54:00 -
[647]
Originally by: Davelantor That way, everybody is happy !!!
No. Everyone would not be happy. CCP are aware that removing learning skills would anger alot of people. I did suggest that it would anger the least amount of people if the learning skills were given away.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1391758
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helmut cheddar
|
Posted - 2010.10.16 23:46:00 -
[648]
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ShadowZoor
The Wretched.
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Posted - 2010.10.17 21:58:00 -
[649]
good solution that gives new players more time to try out other things like ship races/industry over boring training time.
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Maz3r Rakum
Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2010.10.18 01:20:00 -
[650]
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Philip Ogtaulmolfi
Milking Interstellar Incorporated.
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Posted - 2010.10.20 11:05:00 -
[651]
Not supported.
If you want to be inneficient by studying them, your decission.
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Samanta Susek
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Posted - 2010.10.20 20:53:00 -
[652]
Even that i made those skills, I think that they should be taken away and basic levels of attributes should be risen(the ones that cannot be remapped). Then maybe good solution would be to just remove advanced learning skills and leave only basic ones. Why should they be removed? Because when you start game, and everyone tells you to train learning skills, and not to start playing is really annoying. Many people will think why they should play game in which you need to spend first few days just to train learning skills? Game should be fun, not hard work, and I don't think many people thinks that doing nothing just to profit in future is fun. Sure it is part of this game, but it is not really funny to do. But if removed, those skill points should be given back in quicker training speed for currentSP+cutLearningSP(for ppl still under 1.6mln SP just cut their SP by learning skills cut, and change bonus boost to 100%*((learningSP/1.6mln)+1) so they will reach 1.6mln sp in same time) like now it is 1.6mln 100% boost. Ofcourse there can be some bonuses for speed just for the thinking of just loosing those learning times in past, but it was like it was and if needs changes, let it change(and be happy you can just play and not learning :p) So basically: remove learning, make stats better and extend bonus boost
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Biocross
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Posted - 2010.10.21 01:20:00 -
[653]
Strongly support. Learnings are an anachronism that should go.
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ICantSeeMan
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Posted - 2010.10.21 14:21:00 -
[654]
Supported. This is my 2nd char in EVE after a LOOONG break. So It's stuck in a station doing Learning and Cybernetics skills for 3 weeks.
Thanks.
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Makumba Aki
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 12:14:00 -
[655]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
This!
Some people just want to get some SP so they can fly their Titan sooner...
Not Supported!!!
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Velan Wolf
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.23 12:41:00 -
[656]
Not supported.
While I understand the redundant nature of this skill set, they provide a valid mechanic to the over all game by providing both a path for more specialization in a specific area and ambiguity to how many skill points any one character might have.
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JcJet
Pretenders Inc Tower of Dark Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.23 16:43:00 -
[657]
For players(lime me) who have their learnings maxed it's very small difference. But for those who have something like 4-3 for few years it's not fair - they wasted so much SP arleady just because of laziness and now every noob will not loose SP because of this. Well, i think such people doesn't care much about their SP anyway... ---
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Test McTesting
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Posted - 2010.10.24 17:42:00 -
[658]
To those who claim that you don't "have" to train learning skills, that instead of min/maxing, you should just have "fun".
I would respond that you don't "have" to fit your ships correctly, that you can just undock in a fail fit and let me pop you, and just have "fun".
If you are the type of person who would rather win a pvp encounter than lose, and you plan on playing EVE longer than 6 months, you MUST train your learning skills first. To do otherwise is as stupid as getting into a fight with a failfit.
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Tactical Miner
|
Posted - 2010.10.24 18:09:00 -
[659]
I agree.
Do not forget that new players receive a 100% bonus to training up to 1.5 mil SP.
If you calculate a compensation for older players to spend points, then this should be taken into account also. Most of us used this bonus to ramp up learning skills. This means that I lost out on faster leaning of fun stuff. 3 mil SP for the learning tree and 1.5 mil was at 100% bonus. Then the compensation should be
3.75 mil SP to spend on whatever we want, 5 mil if you feel generous for the cost of the advanced books. 3 mil SP for new players, and remove the 100% bonus. |

Selinate
Wardens of the Void
|
Posted - 2010.10.31 22:25:00 -
[660]
Seriously, they need to get rid of the effing learning skills already.
|
|

Amanda Eidolo
The Python Cartel.
|
Posted - 2010.11.01 01:19:00 -
[661]
NOT SUPPORTED.
HORRIBLE IDEAS, LEAVE LEARNING SKILLS IN JUST AS THEY ARE, IF PEOPLE CAN'T HANDLE IT EVE IS NOT FOR THEM
NOBODY FORCES YOU TO INVEST TIME IN LEARNING SKILLS TO 5/5 JUST LIKE NOBODY FORCES YOU TO TRAIN RACIAL CRUISER TO 5
OF COURSE IF YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT AND WANT TO GET THE MOST OUT OF YOUR CHARACTER THEN AT SOME POINT YOU WILL SPEND THE TIME AND DO IT
THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME HIDDEN IMPLICATION IN ALL THIS THAT LEARNING SKILLS NEED TO BE TRAINED TO 5/5 AS SOON AS A CHARACTER IS CREATED WHILE DOING NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT
WHICH IS SO DUMB IT'S NOT FUNNY, THAT IS SUPREMELY FLAWED LOGIC AND I FIND IT REPREHENSIBLE
I SEE THIS THREAD, A MICROTRANSACTIONS THREAD AND A PLEX FOR REMAP THREAD ON THE FIRST PAGE ALONE, WTF IS THIS CANCER CCP? DO YOU THINK I HAVE SPENT THOUSANDS OF HOURS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON THIS GAME OVER THE YEARS BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS SUBPAR AND DIDN'T LIKE THE WAY IT WORKED?
GIVE IT A REST YOU JOKERS HA HA HA HA HA -------- ¦ |

Bhattran
|
Posted - 2010.11.01 03:23:00 -
[662]
Originally by: Amanda Eidolo
NOT SUPPORTED.
HORRIBLE IDEAS, LEAVE LEARNING SKILLS IN JUST AS THEY ARE, IF PEOPLE CAN'T HANDLE IT EVE IS NOT FOR THEM
NOBODY FORCES YOU TO INVEST TIME IN LEARNING SKILLS TO 5/5 JUST LIKE NOBODY FORCES YOU TO TRAIN RACIAL CRUISER TO 5
OF COURSE IF YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT AND WANT TO GET THE MOST OUT OF YOUR CHARACTER THEN AT SOME POINT YOU WILL SPEND THE TIME AND DO IT
THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME HIDDEN IMPLICATION IN ALL THIS THAT LEARNING SKILLS NEED TO BE TRAINED TO 5/5 AS SOON AS A CHARACTER IS CREATED WHILE DOING NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT
WHICH IS SO DUMB IT'S NOT FUNNY, THAT IS SUPREMELY FLAWED LOGIC AND I FIND IT REPREHENSIBLE
I SEE THIS THREAD, A MICROTRANSACTIONS THREAD AND A PLEX FOR REMAP THREAD ON THE FIRST PAGE ALONE, WTF IS THIS CANCER CCP? DO YOU THINK I HAVE SPENT THOUSANDS OF HOURS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON THIS GAME OVER THE YEARS BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS SUBPAR AND DIDN'T LIKE THE WAY IT WORKED?
GIVE IT A REST YOU JOKERS HA HA HA HA HA
You should read the press releases CCP has said you don't matter as much as new players.
--Submit your bug reports via mental telepathy this will streamline CCP ignoring them.-- |

Mishkaii
|
Posted - 2010.11.01 05:25:00 -
[663]
Very supported.
Simply put, the learnings are a fossil of an era long gone and place a huge burden on new players. Not only this but the arguments for keeping them often come from trolls with 3 or 4 accounts and Titans/Carriers/whatever already trained that would like to share their grief and misery about the bad old days with the world and that hate on every change that would make the game more accessible anyway.
"It sucked for me and it should suck for everyone" is not an argument, nor is the false "you dont have to train them, have fun lulz derp" choice.
Begone with them, refund skillpoints, and let the bittervets be bitter about one more thing.
|

Mon Dieux
|
Posted - 2010.11.01 09:08:00 -
[664]
Supported.
This solution makes a lot of sense. People who have learned the skills already will be reimbursed accordingly by having accelerated learning to regain those sp and newer players won't feel so daunted by the really horrible choice of being stuck in a frigate for 2 months while learning them, or suffering dimished skill gain rates in the future for ignoring them.
It's already daunting enough coming in to the game as it is and making the realisation that it'll take 20 years to max out all learning and that there are players out there already with 7 years headstart on you. Also knowing that to keep pace and not lose further ground, you effectively can't play as you'd prefer for 2 months adds salt to the wound so to speak.
The system is a flawed design, it needs to change.
|

March rabbit
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 09:53:00 -
[665]
i support topicstarter's idea.
it doesn't really matter for me how new players enjoy or don't enjoy to start Eve. And what they want: smart strategy and tactic game or counter-strike with space ships.
if CCP removes learning skills, safes my skill training speed and returns SP to me i would be happy to invest those SPs into new skills i want right now.
I haven't anything against learning skills and i spent time after calculation. Never was angry or pity about this "lost" time. Because it is element of strategy. Like any other skill (does anybody like to spend 10+ days to get +2% bonus to something??? i don't).
But if CCP makes us gift (some amount of free SP) i agree with it. because i like gifts. 
|

Xordel
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 20:01:00 -
[666]
Originally by: Amanda Eidolo
NOT SUPPORTED.
HORRIBLE IDEAS, LEAVE LEARNING SKILLS IN JUST AS THEY ARE, IF PEOPLE CAN'T HANDLE IT EVE IS NOT FOR THEM
NOBODY FORCES YOU TO INVEST TIME IN LEARNING SKILLS TO 5/5 JUST LIKE NOBODY FORCES YOU TO TRAIN RACIAL CRUISER TO 5
OF COURSE IF YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT AND WANT TO GET THE MOST OUT OF YOUR CHARACTER THEN AT SOME POINT YOU WILL SPEND THE TIME AND DO IT
THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME HIDDEN IMPLICATION IN ALL THIS THAT LEARNING SKILLS NEED TO BE TRAINED TO 5/5 AS SOON AS A CHARACTER IS CREATED WHILE DOING NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT
WHICH IS SO DUMB IT'S NOT FUNNY, THAT IS SUPREMELY FLAWED LOGIC AND I FIND IT REPREHENSIBLE
I SEE THIS THREAD, A MICROTRANSACTIONS THREAD AND A PLEX FOR REMAP THREAD ON THE FIRST PAGE ALONE, WTF IS THIS CANCER CCP? DO YOU THINK I HAVE SPENT THOUSANDS OF HOURS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON THIS GAME OVER THE YEARS BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS SUBPAR AND DIDN'T LIKE THE WAY IT WORKED?
GIVE IT A REST YOU JOKERS HA HA HA HA HA
Hello there person with no life outside of eve. This is supposed to be a game. Dont take it seriously and whats with "if people cant handle it eve is not for them." Cmon man this is a game not some private thing only PROS should play. Its like "i suffered **** you should suffer too." Man your selfish. Whats with the nobody forces you to train learning skills 5/5. Why in the world would a person invest 15/month on a character that is sub par. Its more of a soft power(not **** related) politics thing. The right choice is so obvioius its not even a choice to begin with.
This is for improving the game widening its fanbase/supporters and giving CCP a fatter wallet so you can play the game you want with quality updates. last thing how the hell did this become a microtransaction we dont pay money to take away learning skills my GOD! your so passionate about PLEX for remaps you see it everywhere.
I support this because the learning curve is really steep as it is and i dont want to add more to that burden by forcing new people to wait it out to actually play the game. Personally eve is lightyears away from *** as a game but *** is more welcoming to the new players because the game actually allows then to do something in the game the first few days. The time where new people are all hyped up and excited. dont want to mention names and im not recruiting for ***
|

Slade Hoo
Retired Gunslingers
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 03:56:00 -
[667]
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Arctic Monkey
D00M. Northern Coalition.
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 07:43:00 -
[668]
|

SmallGang Bandit
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 15:07:00 -
[669]
Originally by: Mon Dieux ... newer players won't feel so daunted by the really horrible choice of being stuck in a frigate for 2 months while learning them, or suffering diminished skill gain rates in the future for ignoring them...
Um I'm a toon with less than 48 hours of training, and I fly in a Thrasher (Destroyer, BTW) and I can be in a Drake and still have less than 900k SP, which is what, a week of training? Pretty sure you can be in something other than a frigate much sooner than two months - and sprinkle in learning skills as you want/need.
Select a "group" of skills to train with matching Primary/Secondary attributes (i.e. gunnery or spaceship command skills) Train the matching L1 Learning skills to 2/3, remap the attributes to boost. Train skills.
Rinse, repeat for other skills and 2nd remap (available to all new players/characters).
Don't bother training Charisma skills at all, and save yourself the hassle unless you are a mission alt/PI alt.
Don't train Tier 2 Learning skills past IV, if you train them at all.
The complaint "OMFG if I don't train all the learning skills to V then it will take me 370 days (instead of 300) to fly a carrier" is a shallow argument.
|

GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari FUSI0N INDUSTRIES
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 15:29:00 -
[670]
Edited by: Gee****zle MacCloud on 05/11/2010 15:31:45 dunno bout u guys bt i remember in education going through and learning about the techniques of learning and how your brain facilitates thoughts into short term and long term memory, along with practical ways of being able to learn more, faster and with better recall... but then again if its good enough for REAL LIFE i guess its not good enough for CCP.
failzorz!
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|

Selinate
Amarr Wardens of the Void
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 15:38:00 -
[671]
Originally by: SmallGang Bandit
Um I'm a toon with less than 48 hours of training, and I fly in a Thrasher (Destroyer, BTW) and I can be in a Drake and still have less than 900k SP, which is what, a week of training? Pretty sure you can be in something other than a frigate much sooner than two months - and sprinkle in learning skills as you want/need.
Select a "group" of skills to train with matching Primary/Secondary attributes (i.e. gunnery or spaceship command skills) Train the matching L1 Learning skills to 2/3, remap the attributes to boost. Train skills.
Rinse, repeat for other skills and 2nd remap (available to all new players/characters).
Don't bother training Charisma skills at all, and save yourself the hassle unless you are a mission alt/PI alt.
Don't train Tier 2 Learning skills past IV, if you train them at all.
The complaint "OMFG if I don't train all the learning skills to V then it will take me 370 days (instead of 300) to fly a carrier" is a shallow argument.
Try and fly that drake into a level 3 mission with only 900 k sp.
I dare you. 
|

Brunaburh
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 15:56:00 -
[672]
Originally by: Selinate Try and fly that drake into a level 3 mission with only 900 k sp.
I dare you. 
Not the point - the point being it's much more than a frigate, in much less than 2 months. What is level 3 mission, anyway? Is that a PvP corp?
|

Jasdemi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.11.06 10:39:00 -
[673]
New players can get faster into PeeVeePee = moar pvp'ing players => better for everyone.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

Selinate
Amarr Wardens of the Void
|
Posted - 2010.11.06 17:35:00 -
[674]
Edited by: Selinate on 06/11/2010 17:37:41
Originally by: Brunaburh
Originally by: Selinate Try and fly that drake into a level 3 mission with only 900 k sp.
I dare you. 
Not the point - the point being it's much more than a frigate, in much less than 2 months. What is level 3 mission, anyway? Is that a PvP corp?
erm... Learn more about the mission system in Eve.
And if you only pilot a drake with 900k sp... well.... a frigate pilot with 900k sp would most likely be able to pop you 
|

Xyzibyte
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 00:04:00 -
[675]
not supported... unfair simply you also want to remove all +5 imps and give ppl isk back so everyone trains equal??? omg lolz no way not supporting
|

DURRRHHH
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 02:21:00 -
[676]
Learning skills are a pain in the ass. This fix is doable, surprisingly, in a matter of hours instead of days (might take CCP a day or two to work out all the bugs, lolololol) but Learning skills are just an overall pain in the arse. I would personally rather start being able to pew pew someone's head off at day one than spend several months training learning skills.
Nevertheless, KEEP LEARNING IMPLANTS. That is only fair, IMO.
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Skinae
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 07:53:00 -
[677]
/signed
I support the original posters idea.
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Ancyker
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 08:49:00 -
[678]
As a relatively new player I have this to say:
I did not like training them, but I did train them a bit. On my main (this character) and my alts that I made.
My friends that I got to join did not like training them but agreed that the eventual benefits were worth the wait.
My friends and I are in agreement that it still takes too long as a new player to not suck. As someone else somewhere else on the forum said, you basically sign up, make a skill plan and wait 4-6 months to start playing. I'm not sure what there is out there to fix this, if anything, but if CCP removes learning skills and doesn't make up for the training time increase then this is just made worse.
So I agree with the original post to a point. If learning skills are removed or made otherwise ineffectual it will not bother me as long as I get the SP back to use on other skills in some form **and** something is added to replace the benefit they provided (either more base attribs to assign or some speed bonus, maybe an implant? I don't know). I still spent time training them (my one character got them to 5/4) so I should get to keep that SP to spend on something else.
For #3 on the original post, the 10,000% faster thing is odd, I think they should just go back into the unallocated SP pool. I'm not 100% sure how that works as I wasn't around for that whole "free SP" thing, but I'm aware of its existence and it sounds about right for this.
|

Cedille Mureau
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 11:41:00 -
[679]
I am new to this forum and I am surprised at the fervour with which this topic has been discussed. I have always viewed the learning skills as tools. I was prepared to get them to a level with which I felt the cost/benefit ratio was right for me and then got on with the job of getting other skills. I don't think that I would lose much sleep if the learning skills disappeared so long as I was compensated for the effort I originally put in. In the end it's all one to me if they go or stay.
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Commandant Valkyrie
I'M ON A BOAT
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 14:14:00 -
[680]
Not supported
I didn't like training them BUT the playoff is well worth it.
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|

Azver Deroven
Pitch Black. Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 14:17:00 -
[681]
Edited by: Azver Deroven on 07/11/2010 14:18:52 [troll] YES PLZ GIEV MAH SP NOW SO I CAN TRAINS DREAD?![/troll]
Okay, now that thats out of my system, lets begin.
I started reading this and my view was "Are they serious? Why on earth would they remove them...", but then I talked with few buddies of mine that I attempted to get to play earlier on; And suddenly I found more interest from their direction as I flashed this idea.
Bottom line is that as said before, they feel that these skills are something that 'must' be trained as the first skills in eve; Being older gamers we feel the need to min-max. But they are at the same time unwilling to pay for their subscription for several months before they can even start training skills needed to fly tacklers with me, or maybe salvager for mish running if we're in empire.
What I'm trying to say here is that even with this minor change in the skill training system I got more interest; And I'm certain it is not limited to just my friends.
Now to the method of how it should be paid back; I admit having 3,5mil (Sorry, 5-4 only.) sp gone missing would **** me off big time; But I trust this is not the way they'd do it as it would be a big ****-you note for everyone playing currently / in immediate future, and as such would highly out-weight any possible benefit. Now if it would be given us to freely redistribute then, being the jerk I am, I would gladly accept. It would give me instant access to rather few ships. That aside; I don't think anyone would mind it other than losing their SP/H advantage over newly started; But they do have severe lead already that cannot be brought down unless the newbie suddenly gains access to +5's, and the older player has +4's.
Beside I don't mind even then; As I already am proficient with my selected ships, the newbie would have to train them all to be at same line; And even then I'd have something more.
Bottom line, on contrary to my original reasoning I am for this and would like to vote my support on the condition that I am refunded the SP spent on learnings; IF this is not met whatsoever I cannot help but to feel violated. I wont make any futile threats that "I quit!", as I know damn well I wont. But still, it would make me as owner of 2 accounts very sad.
<insert sad panda face> ---------------------------------------------------- My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
|

Pseudo Ucksth
Collegium Mechanicae Dominus Bellorum
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 20:06:00 -
[682]
I only became for this idea when they put in the floating-sp system where I could put sp where I wanted.
Now I want that 5.4m sp to put where I want.
Giev plz. 
Honestly though both my accounts already have 5/5 so I don't care how this ends up. I would not mind being able to max out some of the more esotetic racial skills with that sp though relatively painlessly.
I suppose I can also understand the plight of the rookie in which it is an annoying obstacle to get to the "fun" of the game, however when I started playing (BACK IN MY DAY LOL) it was seen as sort of a "it's good, do it when you want to get around to it" sort of thing.
I blame impatient older players trying to force perfection onto rookies for the current stigma that it needs to be done right away.
______
|

Xordel
|
Posted - 2010.11.14 21:17:00 -
[683]
hi guys! if you really support this proposal we have a november 2010 prioritization crowdsourcing here is the wiki list ->> LIST and here is the the thread ->> Thread and according to the wiki learning skills is at 113. Enter a list of proposals that the CSM should prioritize.
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Mimiru Minahiro
|
Posted - 2010.11.14 22:11:00 -
[684]
Not supported. Solution looking for a problem.
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KaerBerohs
|
Posted - 2010.11.15 06:47:00 -
[685]
Although I have no personal beef with learnings and I understand why they were put in (so newer players to train to use stuff faster? right? maybe I am wrong), I have to agree that this would be the best measure for all of EVE.
No, new players do *not* have to sit and train learnings for 2 weeks / a month to get things done. However, it would benefit them.
Anyone I've tried to introduce to this game I've had them make their character a month in advance and then train learnings to 5/4 before starting starting. :P and if that's not bad enough, you're never really sure when what a person is typing is actually the post or some lame signature meant to confuse readers. |

MNagy
|
Posted - 2010.11.15 19:48:00 -
[686]
Why Remove them? Make them unavailable to any toon that is younger than X amount of skill points.
The argument that new toons skill this for month 1 to month 6 is solved. They are only available after a toon gets up to ( example: 15 million skill points ).
New players are forced to play as if they are unavailable. You play long enough you have additional skills you suddently can/have requirements for.
Removing them - Not supported.
|

Gallians
|
Posted - 2010.11.15 23:59:00 -
[687]
Originally by: MNagy Why Remove them? Make them unavailable to any toon that is younger than X amount of skill points.
The argument that new toons skill this for month 1 to month 6 is solved. They are only available after a toon gets up to ( example: 15 million skill points ).
New players are forced to play as if they are unavailable. You play long enough you have additional skills you suddently can/have requirements for.
Removing them - Not supported.
This is ridiculous, are you even aware of how long getting to 15 million skill points would take without learnings?
Training anything takes way too long which is why people feel forced to pick up the learnings in the first place. They should be removed, and skill training times brought down across the board. Number one reason I hear of people quitting who just started is "Training nothing for a couple weeks in order to train anything at not snail speed is ******ed".
And for the trolls spewing the "Eve is supossed to be hard lulz" garbage: It should be hard to play, not a test of endurance of who quits because of not being able to fly anything first. The way things are it is very difficult for a new player to enjoy the game, and older players have an unsumournable advantage.
This is ******ed and terrible design if CCP ever wants to get more players and make EVE a more successful game.
Get rid of this terrible design ASAP, please.
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Cid SilverWing
|
Posted - 2010.11.16 00:21:00 -
[688]
The Learning tree does, imo, alienate new players and bog down veterans alike. It's essentially 2 months for increased training speed which should have just been there in the first place.
I'm all in favor for completely removing the Learning tree altogether (but refunding the SP in the process so they can be better spent elsewhere). And as recompense, training should be hard-coded to go at the speed of as if players already had trained the entire tree to 5.
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Cat IntheBox
|
Posted - 2010.11.16 00:25:00 -
[689]
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro Not supported. Solution looking for a problem.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
|
Posted - 2010.11.16 16:01:00 -
[690]
Do this: Almost triple base attributes (giving players a free remap to apply) Change learning skills to be +1% attribute increase per level (learning skill too) Change implants to be +1% too (+5 implant > +5%)
Fixed with minimal impact on current mechanics. |
|

Pellit1
Caldari Vitai Lampada Rough Necks
|
Posted - 2010.11.16 16:42:00 -
[691]
Originally by: Netacq not supportedOne of the unique features of EVE is specialization. Learning skills are part of it.
Whole-heartedly agree.
Not supported ------------- Rough Necks Alliance
BOOST FALCONS. Nerf whiners.
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Mishikaii
|
Posted - 2010.11.16 17:36:00 -
[692]
Very supported.
Learning skills add nothing to the game but a extremely frustrating period that scares people away, from personal experience.
More people, more good times for everyone involved. Eve should be about skill flying, not about skill waiting to wait some more to maybe fly something in a month or so.
|

Anubis Xian
Reavers
|
Posted - 2010.11.16 21:53:00 -
[693]
The problem with Learning skills is idiots keep telling new players they HAVE to have them NOW. I tell new players to train them when they dont know what else to train.
Is it good that CCP wants to replace them, I cant say. It shows they at least understand the hole new and old players dug for themselves game longevitywise. I maxed every Learning skill, I invested the time and money to do it. I did it informed of the pros and cons of doing it and because I saw it as a good investment long term.
Truly, the types of players that quit over training Learning skills are the types of players that would quit anyway.
I think the problem is the stigma attached to them, not the skills themselves.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Mister Lotto
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 13:51:00 -
[694]
DO THIS CCP! TAKE THIS SOLUTION! |

matthiastee
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 18:50:00 -
[695]
|

Makumba Aki
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 19:46:00 -
[696]
Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:48:17 Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:47:43 Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:46:33
Originally by: Kaya Divine Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.
Solution
- 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes
10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.
- 2. Remove all learning skills.
Like they never existed.
- 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.
Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.
That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.
Now, the question is: Would you be totally satisfied with this change?
Bad solution since it removes an important decision from the game.
Better solution: Give every char after subscription around 2 mil of SP at his disposal. The owner of the char can decide then whether he would rather like to fly a fancy ship emidiately or invest the skill points in the learnings (you get 5/4 for 2 mil SP).
But I bet people would still complain, since they would still have to make a decision and face the consequences.
|

Mishikaii
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 20:57:00 -
[697]
Originally by: Makumba Aki Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:48:17 Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:47:43 Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:46:33
Originally by: Kaya Divine Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.
Solution
- 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes
10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.
- 2. Remove all learning skills.
Like they never existed.
- 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.
Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.
That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.
Now, the question is: Would you be totally satisfied with this change?
Bad solution since it removes an important decision from the game.
Better solution: Give every char after subscription around 2 mil of SP at his disposal. The owner of the char can decide then whether he would rather like to fly a fancy ship emidiately or invest the skill points in the learnings (you get 5/4 for 2 mil SP).
But I bet people would still complain, since they would still have to make a decision and face the consequences.
I like your solution, but wouldn't it give instant skilled alts for a whole variety of things? For instance a market alt, freighter alt, or even cov ops alt would all be either trained or almost trained within the free points. Combined with free trials it would give throwaway alt a whole new meaning. Not to mention insta suic ganking trials.
I think the idea is to make training faster and more accessible to new people, not provide infinite skilled alts.
|

Makumba Aki
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 22:00:00 -
[698]
Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 22:03:13
Originally by: Mishikaii
I like your solution, but wouldn't it give instant skilled alts for a whole variety of things? For instance a market alt, freighter alt, or even cov ops alt would all be either trained or almost trained within the free points. Combined with free trials it would give throwaway alt a whole new meaning. Not to mention insta suic ganking trials.
I think the idea is to make training faster and more accessible to new people, not provide infinite skilled alts.
Not at all! That why I said "Give every char after subscription around 2 mil of SP at his disposal." (on the sentece is maybe a bit f*** up :D ) So the trial would still keep its purpose, you would still train with bonus on your trial and thus have the opportunity to try different things as a new player. However, after you swith to a paid account you would reveive those 2 mil SP as a welcome gift so to say. You could still create insta skilled traders, but not for free. The only difference to how it is now is that you don't have to wait for two months or to pay for a char transfer.
However, to be honest I am happy with the system as it is right now. It is just, if they necesserily want to change the system, this would be the only viable way for me to do it. All other proposals I have read so far simply say: "Give me the learnings for free and reimburce me with the juicy SPs I have invested so far in them, so I can fly the titan sooner." Its not like the people don't like the learnings, they just don't want to "pay" for them.  |

matthiastee
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Posted - 2010.11.18 17:59:00 -
[699]
Edited by: matthiastee on 18/11/2010 18:00:33 yeah but how many people joining the game would know about this thing after sub? none probably so they would still be stuck in this learning skill thingy where they would quit the game before they subcribed which would make your idea useless.
this topic is trying to make it so new players can enjoy the game without haveing to go through a bunch of waiting first.
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Makumba Aki
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Posted - 2010.11.19 00:17:00 -
[700]
Originally by: matthiastee Edited by: matthiastee on 18/11/2010 18:00:33 yeah but how many people joining the game would know about this thing after sub? none probably so they would still be stuck in this learning skill thingy where they would quit the game before they subcribed which would make your idea useless.
this topic is trying to make it so new players can enjoy the game without haveing to go through a bunch of waiting first.
Are you serious? How many people know that learning skills exist at all when they start? CCP could make a big blinky pop-up which states "We will give you 2 Mil SP after subscribtion!" Marketing isn't that complicated.
This proposal was never about new players. It simply tries to give old players max learnings for free + some free skill points. And you can't await to get these juicy gifts. 
|
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Gallians
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Posted - 2010.11.19 01:41:00 -
[701]
Originally by: Makumba Aki
Originally by: matthiastee Edited by: matthiastee on 18/11/2010 18:00:33 yeah but how many people joining the game would know about this thing after sub? none probably so they would still be stuck in this learning skill thingy where they would quit the game before they subcribed which would make your idea useless.
this topic is trying to make it so new players can enjoy the game without haveing to go through a bunch of waiting first.
Are you serious? How many people know that learning skills exist at all when they start? CCP could make a big blinky pop-up which states "We will give you 2 Mil SP after subscribtion!" Marketing isn't that complicated.
This proposal was never about new players. It simply tries to give old players max learnings for free + some free skill points. And you can't await to get these juicy gifts. 
Nice troll. Some of us actually think the learnings are **** poor design, and quite a barrier of entry to the game, and you can think so even if you put the time into getting them, trust me.
**** poor design is **** poor.
I think removing is a great idea. Free SP on registration (assumedly for every character on an account, else useless). Suddenly every plex turns into an insta skilled alt, which I'm not sure most want.
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Makumba Aki
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Posted - 2010.11.19 02:22:00 -
[702]
Originally by: Gallians Edited by: Gallians on 19/11/2010 01:48:52
Originally by: Makumba Aki
Originally by: matthiastee Edited by: matthiastee on 18/11/2010 18:00:33 yeah but how many people joining the game would know about this thing after sub? none probably so they would still be stuck in this learning skill thingy where they would quit the game before they subcribed which would make your idea useless.
this topic is trying to make it so new players can enjoy the game without haveing to go through a bunch of waiting first.
Are you serious? How many people know that learning skills exist at all when they start? CCP could make a big blinky pop-up which states "We will give you 2 Mil SP after subscribtion!" Marketing isn't that complicated.
This proposal was never about new players. It simply tries to give old players max learnings for free + some free skill points. And you can't await to get these juicy gifts. 
Nice troll. Some of us actually think the learnings are **** poor design, and quite a barrier of entry to the game, and you can think so even if you put the time into getting them, trust me.
**** poor design is **** poor.
I think removing is a great idea. Free SP on registration, not so much (assumedly for every character on an account, else useless). Suddenly every plex turns into an insta skilled alt, which I'm not sure most want.
People who really consider learnings being useless, poor design and a barrier, don't ask CCP to given them these very same skills for free. 
How is it about attribute imps? They force new players to grind ISK for hours in order to buy them ASAP, since it is impossible to play eve without max skill speed. 
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Gallians
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Posted - 2010.11.19 02:56:00 -
[703]
Originally by: Makumba Aki Edited by: Makumba Aki on 19/11/2010 02:28:30
Originally by: Gallians Edited by: Gallians on 19/11/2010 01:48:52
Originally by: Makumba Aki
Originally by: matthiastee Edited by: matthiastee on 18/11/2010 18:00:33 yeah but how many people joining the game would know about this thing after sub? none probably so they would still be stuck in this learning skill thingy where they would quit the game before they subcribed which would make your idea useless.
this topic is trying to make it so new players can enjoy the game without haveing to go through a bunch of waiting first.
Are you serious? How many people know that learning skills exist at all when they start? CCP could make a big blinky pop-up which states "We will give you 2 Mil SP after subscribtion!" Marketing isn't that complicated.
This proposal was never about new players. It simply tries to give old players max learnings for free + some free skill points. And you can't await to get these juicy gifts. 
Nice troll. Some of us actually think the learnings are **** poor design, and quite a barrier of entry to the game, and you can think so even if you put the time into getting them, trust me.
**** poor design is **** poor.
I think removing is a great idea. Free SP on registration, not so much (assumedly for every character on an account, else useless). Suddenly every plex turns into an insta skilled alt, which I'm not sure most want.
Free SP on registration is a not a good idea because old players won't get any free SP.
People who really consider learnings being useless, poor design and a barrier, don't ask CCP to given them these very same skills for free. 
How is it about attribute imps? They force new players to grind ISK for hours in order to buy them ASAP, since it is impossible to play eve without max skill speed. How is it then about removing them as well and to increase all attributes by 5 in order to lower the barrier? 
BTW: I think CCP should just leave the learning skills the way they are.
I think your reading comprehension is off, old players, who have plex, can get a lot more off instantly skilled alts for the low low cost of 300 million. An insta skilled suic ganker for a plex? SIGN ME UP.
Who would ever abuse such a thing?!
No, the poor design is the incredibly slow speed at which everything trains without them, which makes the skills a necessity in order to ever train anything at near reasonable speeds. That "reasonable" doesn't apply to high multiplier skills because they still take ******edly long, but the effect of NOT having the learnings is compounded.
Since unless you are a single purpose alt that is not going to train anything, you are virtually required to have them, they impose an onerous requirement of an insane amount of time, while not giving any tangible in game bonuses other than slightly less ******ed training time.
Implants are different in that they have all types of tangible effects and getting ISK is much faster than getting SP. I personally think attribute implants are fine. Not having 5/4 if a serious main character? certainly not.
CCP themselves agree that they are a terrible design mistake that they wish to fix, and of the proposals I have seen to do that, this is one of the best ones.
Personally I think training times across the board should be reduced for everyone, but more so for new people if CCP ever wants to get anything near reasonable suscriber numbers (which by their marketing and focus on player luring features, it would seem they do.)
TLDR: Learnings should go, your idea is still bad and open to abuse.
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Cid SilverWing
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Posted - 2010.11.19 06:03:00 -
[704]
I simply cannot agree enough. The entire Learning tree needs to go. And all SP sunk into them by existing characters should be refunded and available to be instantly transferred into other skills. And base training speed should be increased to as if characters already had the entire Learning tree 5'ed.
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Zverofaust
Locus Industries
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Posted - 2010.11.19 13:56:00 -
[705]
___________________________________________ The Hero of Kamela The Terror of Tararan The Executioner of Ezzara |

Xynthiar
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Posted - 2010.11.19 14:10:00 -
[706]
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Makumba Aki
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Posted - 2010.11.19 17:26:00 -
[707]
Originally by: Gallians
I think your reading comprehension is off, old players, who have plex, can get a lot more off instantly skilled alts for the low low cost of 300 million. An insta skilled suic ganker for a plex? SIGN ME UP.
Who would ever abuse such a thing?!
No, my reading comprehension is ok. I just don't see the problem. Or how does it change the situation compared to now? Are there now no suicide gankers? Yeh, there will be more suicide ganks! So what? That is what eve is about, dark and harsh place.
Quote:
No, the poor design is the incredibly slow speed at which everything trains without them, which makes the skills a necessity in order to ever train anything at near reasonable speeds. That "reasonable" doesn't apply to high multiplier skills because they still take ******edly long, but the effect of NOT having the learnings is compounded.
Since unless you are a single purpose alt that is not going to train anything, you are virtually required to have them, they impose an onerous requirement of an insane amount of time, while not giving any tangible in game bonuses other than slightly less ******ed training time.
So on the one hand you say "which makes the skills a necessity", and on the other hand you say "while not giving any tangible in game bonuses other than slightly less ******ed training time"
Why is a slightly less training time a necessity?
I translate: "I am inpacient little kid and I am going to cry if I can't fly titans after 1-2 months playing."
Quote:
Implants are different in that they have all types of tangible effects and getting ISK is much faster than getting SP. I personally think attribute implants are fine.
Attribute imps have exactly the same tangible effects as the learnings do, just for isk instead of SP.  And to earn 10 mil would take a trial account about a week, and he only would get one +3 imp for it.
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Mishikaii
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Posted - 2010.11.19 18:37:00 -
[708]
Originally by: Makumba Aki
Originally by: Gallians
I think your reading comprehension is off, old players, who have plex, can get a lot more off instantly skilled alts for the low low cost of 300 million. An insta skilled suic ganker for a plex? SIGN ME UP.
Who would ever abuse such a thing?!
No, my reading comprehension is ok. I just don't see the problem. Or how does it change the situation compared to now? Are there now no suicide gankers? Yeh, there will be more suicide ganks! So what? That is what eve is about, dark and harsh place.
Quote:
No, the poor design is the incredibly slow speed at which everything trains without them, which makes the skills a necessity in order to ever train anything at near reasonable speeds. That "reasonable" doesn't apply to high multiplier skills because they still take ******edly long, but the effect of NOT having the learnings is compounded.
Since unless you are a single purpose alt that is not going to train anything, you are virtually required to have them, they impose an onerous requirement of an insane amount of time, while not giving any tangible in game bonuses other than slightly less ******ed training time.
So on the one hand you say "which makes the skills a necessity", and on the other hand you say "while not giving any tangible in game bonuses other than slightly less ******ed training time"
Why is a slightly less training time a necessity?
I translate: "I am inpacient little kid and I am going to cry if I can't fly titans after 1-2 months playing."
Quote:
Implants are different in that they have all types of tangible effects and getting ISK is much faster than getting SP. I personally think attribute implants are fine.
Attribute imps have exactly the same tangible effects as the learnings do, just for isk instead of SP.  And to earn 10 mil would take a trial account about a week, and he only would get one +3 imp for it.
Checked on that lately? Running the epic arc and the tutorial missions made me about 30 million, and I am sure I did that in much less than a week. More like a couple nights.
As a newer player the worst part of this game is waiting for the learnings to level while not gaining any benefits for my ships.
Very support removing them.
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Gallians
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Posted - 2010.11.19 18:43:00 -
[709]
Don't feed the troll ""I am inpacient little kid and I am going to cry if I can't fly titans after 1-2 months playing."". I lulz'd
His post is so full of nonsensical garbage its not even funny.
TLDR: Learnings must go, people who can't spell inpatient and have terrible ideas, don't like the idea of more people playing the game and the game being more accessible.
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Chrysa Narfatu
Amarr Joint Shipbuilding Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2010.11.20 02:11:00 -
[710]
Not supported in all aspects. It is not about the 'I had to do it, so others must do it too' mentality.
I simply believe that learning skills are a purely optional part of the game. It would spoil the fun of trully building a character from scratch.
It feels as if we'd be going back to square one, when a pilot had to choose a career path and render the alpha clone useless once again, let alone the skillpoint burden.
As far as I am concerned, I trained Learning skills because I wanted to.
Fly Safe! Chrysa Narfatu Chief Executive Officer Joint Shipbuilding Industries Ltd |
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Zuzon
Dysfunctional Family
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Posted - 2010.11.20 03:18:00 -
[711]
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Fuyu'no Kiri
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Posted - 2010.11.20 05:34:00 -
[712]
I still fail to see where the issue is. Really.
As far as the "CCP stated that they'll remove it" claim goes, it all sums up to "we've had 3 designers working on it for months and it still didn't go through". So, to begin with a positive assesment: try as we may, we, as a player base, are not going to come up with anything as elaborate as this 3 people could muster, even if they spent only 2 hours a week for a mere 2 months on that particular topic.
Another statement which I really can't understand is Soundwave's "when I created my (first two) account(s), I launched the learning skills and played CS for two months".
First, this is a game, the purpose of which is (or should be) to have fun. Learning skills are not fun? Skip them. "You need them to be competitive!" you say? What do you want? To have fun or to be competitive? And what does it even mean, to "be competitive"?
Let's do a bit of math, instead, will you?
So, I'll focus on the idea that this whole skill category and it's (supposed) necessity is an impediment to rookies discovering the game. A rooky is any pilot below 1.6M SP. Your "rooky bootstrap programme" could be (lower case for base skill, upper case for advanced skill), first to get cybernetics lvl1 and +1 implants for IPWM and a +2 C, then mil mil mil mil MI MI MI pwc pwc pwc pwc PCW PCW PCW. That would take you 6 days, 6 hours and 14 minutes to reach and earn you 347.025 SP, raising your attributes by some 216%.
That means you still have a lot of your 100% speed bonus as a rooky. So much so that you can start from day 0 training concrete stuff, to get a taste of this and that, as the first skills available or required for something else are low rank, low level ones: so quickly trained that you're not penalized to get them before comitting to the learning family.
In my opinion, the only real limiting factor is not time "locally wasted" on meta-training, but isk, as the cost of proposed programme is above 24M.
Now your mates are adamant that you should delve further in boosting your attribs? Blow them a kneecap or two, then. Or at least ask them if they ever heard of some "break-even point" stuff. All base learning skills to 5 and advanced to 4 account for some further 1.87M SP, which would claim 5.5x more time than what I proposed earlier, to get you to 248% of your initial attribs --- 115% of what you get with the "4/3 bootstrap programme" --- if it didn't rocket past the "initial 1.6M happy hour".
So, before embarking on such a road, you have to work out how many SP you'll have to train on that attribute in order for the reduction on training them to equal the time spent on the meta-skill. I haven't pushed the reasonning as far as laying the final (in)equation for this, but it appears that a pair of lvl4 advanced can be paid for with a pair of lvl5 low rank (5 or below) "actual" skills. I embarked on lvl5 base myself as it shrinks my 115 week long programme to some mere 90, neural remap included.
Will I still be playing EVE by that time? If I am, I'll be happy to have spent time on maxing my attribs. If I'm not, then it won't be an issue anymore ;)
The important thing is: I understand what I get from it, and I know what I have to give for it.
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Fuyu'no Kiri
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Posted - 2010.11.20 06:46:00 -
[713]
Edited by: Fuyu''no Kiri on 20/11/2010 06:51:05 Edited by: Fuyu''no Kiri on 20/11/2010 06:47:09 Now, let's take a look at some proposed solutions?
First, I wan't to say I'm not criticizing the fact that this issue escalated to a CSM proposal, neither do I simply want to burn down the propositions. I'm here to contribute to it: it's ideas I'm wielding, not people I'm fighting. I'm not even trying to fight ideas.
1. give away all learning skills at lvl3 to every new character and somehow adjust former ones
If absolutely everybody has it, then it's dead and useless. Simply remove it altogether.
1b. existing characters are given bonus skillpoints equal to the amount needed to train all of the learning skills to the levels now being granted to new players. While this gives existing players who have trained these skills a slight boost, it compensates for the time they spent training those skills that new characters won't have to spend
6 rank 1 lvl 3 and 5 rank 3 lvl 3 skills make up for 168k SP. Approximately two thirds of a rank 1 lvl 5. You might as well give a "slight boost" to your warp speed by flapping your hands inside your pod ;) What is 168k when you're tens of millions SP old already?
2. refund all accumulated learning skill skillpoints and skillbook expenses
This one would be tricky. What do you mean by "accumulated learning skill SP"? Just the SP allocated in the category? That wouldn't even begin to be fair.
To make me happy (and I'm really serious), you'd also have to take back all the extra SP I earned from having raised my attribs in the first place. For I didn't do it just for the sake of it, but because I could turn some profit from it. So, you wan't to take back what I invested? Please take back what I earned from it too!
That would of course raise mindboggling(*) issues, as it would be necessary to re-run my whole training queue since I first injected one of those damned meta-skill. And even further: gaining quicker access to more advanced skills gave me quicker access to other profitable things (let's say I became a refining expert much faster than a new character now will, which made more isk than I would have otherwise, etc.)
If you don't do that, then even as it may seem to relieve new players of some burden, in some mid-term run it becomes a really huge penalty on them.
3. replace learning skills with a boost to attributes, gained from having trained skills relevant of that attrib
I read that in this thread, and it appealed to me. I like the idea that making something makes you better at doing it the next time around. Not in the "knitting 300 socks will make you better at sewing smokings" sense, mind you.
But then again, in the longer run, it just further digs the gap between vets and noobs, as the former will have gained significant acceleration while the latter will not even have set speed.
I believe that there are two points that make the current system work, at least "not so badly": a. it's capped, in an absolute fashion ; b. it's choice based: you're free not to train them.
There are two other points that already allow new players to compete with older ones : c. the first skills you learn are low rank, low level, so you get really really faster at doing new stuff than a seasoned opponent ; d. team up with other noobs like you, do it cleverly, and you'll rip open any solo vet's pod like a tin can!
So I'm back to that: if you do something, then you should know why you do it. The key to succeeding in this game, I believe, is grey matter.
(*) By the way, where the hell can I buy a towel in New Eden?!
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Gigaer
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.11.20 07:08:00 -
[714]
My blog post on the subject. http://gigaer.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/ooc-get-rid-of-learning-skills-i-say-yes
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Fuyu'no Kiri
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Posted - 2010.11.20 07:18:00 -
[715]
Finally, let's talk a bit of real-life currency, will you?
One thing that really quickly popped up in my head after starting playing EVE, is that your monthly subscription not only pays for the mere possibility to play the game, have a few kilobytes in some of TQ-node's ram that make pixels dance on your screen, but also pays for raking in those precious skill points: no money, no skill points.
So, somewhere, I see the learning skills as some loyalty program: "if you're willing to pay some playing time for nothing(*), then we'll give you back a slight but permanent cut afterwards". If you're accounting for your SP not in time but in (terran) money, the effect is the same: it's a matter of investment.
Also, as I said in my first post here, for me the limiting factor with "rooky bootstraping" is isk. If you can gather as much as 24M in your first (say) month in the game, chances are you know other players that are willing to help you. And of course they don't do it absolutely for free. To be specific: as a CEO myself, I'll gladly provide the books, implants and explanations to any OOG friend that would join the game, just to have the pleasure to share the gaming experience, for as long as possible.
So it somehow gets down to this when I speak of it to them: "hey dude, there's this MMO i've been playing, if you join, I can make you get more for your money than you would otherwise".
That combined to the buddy program makes up, I think, an effective way for CCP to attract new players while retaining older ones (first you wan't to get your investment back, but then the longer you've been toying with anything, the more you'll want to toy with it again), all at the same time somehow cementing the social aspects of the game.
Now if you'll excuse me, I should have restarted my extractors long ago ;)
(*) in terms of character development, that is
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ID102034234
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Posted - 2010.11.20 10:04:00 -
[716]
I have all Learnings at Level 5, which took me 116 days salvaging in a Catalyst, begging my Corpmate to allow me cleaning his crap after him.
That said, still the most adorable solution in my opinion is to:
1. remove all Learning Skills
2. give all characters 50 more attributepoints (as the Learnings did)
3. give all attributes 10% bonus the same way as Learning did
4. reimburse the skillpoints spent for learningskills (how much ever the player already spent)
The above reflects my opinion that there is a good reason to train all learnings to V, that I do not follow the "I-suffered-so-should-they" mentaly and ergo think that new players should be having it easier in the beginning.
This way:
new players can enjoy the game earlier and hopefully stay playing the game
old players who did do the learnings do not have penalty
and most important:
old players who did not do the learnings would have been punished having a slower training-time untill then (which they should, as the gamemechanics were there, and if they learned the skills now they equally would never catch up with me)
ergo: no reimbursment of training-time on other skills (NO NO NO!)
This way we have a balance between "good for new players" and "bad for old players". I cannot count the new souls that left EVE after the trial periode, because everyone was saying "learn the learnings" (which you really should right now!)
BUT:
one thing is missing here: what about the time i spent my money on the learnings?! 116 days worth of skilling something that is ditched? that's almost as much as 3 PLEXES (or 45Ç here in Europe)!!
So players who understood the gamemechanics and did the learnings, are punished by paying more REAL money than players who did not?! NO WAY!!
5. add the time spent on learnings to the account subsription OR give me 3 plexes or reimburse enough skillpoints to cover the 116 days I have paid for nothing in the past (in EVE it's skillpints for money, just as my pre-poster said)
Now I do not believe CCP will have point 5 added to THEIR list (IF NOT, DON'T SCREW WITH LEARNINGS), but perhaps they manage to surprise me.
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SheoFapped
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Posted - 2010.11.20 14:45:00 -
[717]
Supported! Also been waiting for this. x3
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Fuyu'no Kiri
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Posted - 2010.11.20 17:35:00 -
[718]
Originally by: ID102034234 I cannot count the new souls that left EVE after the trial periode, because everyone was saying "learn the learnings"
I never thought that "I don't have a figure but, believe me, it's big!" was proof of anything ;-P
Otoh, what lead those "souls" to leave? Your words are "because everyone was saying [do that]". So maybe the driving force behind their defection is not so much the actual game mechanics as the kind of social pressure that's been built upon it.
When I go to my local sandbox to build a sand-made castle, I don't bow to those who were there before me saying that I can't make it a tetrahedron and that it has to be a square.
I don't know if the point I make is more accurate than anything else (I never saw any one leave EVE after their trial period... maybe mainly because I've been here only 2 months myself ^^ ). I just bring in another perspective.
Quote: one thing is missing here: what about the time i spent my money on the learnings?! 116 days worth of skilling something that is ditched? that's almost as much as 3 PLEXES (or 45Ç here in Europe)!!
So players who understood the gamemechanics and did the learnings, are punished by paying more REAL money than players who did not?! NO WAY!!
5. add the time spent on learnings to the account subsription OR give me 3 plexes or reimburse enough skillpoints to cover the 116 days I have paid for nothing in the past
That's a devilishly good point you make there, but then again it comes with so much fur... ;)
You spent 116 days on those skills. It's more like 58Ç, but ok. Then what about players who learned part of their learning skills while under rooky-boost vs those who did it all at normal pace? What about those who sped up their meta-learning with implants vs those who had none?
Quote: I also vote for the removing of attribute enhancers (implants) as I think everything should be equal to everybody!
By pushing in that direction, you end up removing the whole skill mechanics, don't you think? If you wan't a game where everything is equal to everybody, you can no more play even chess, go, or tic tac toe!
And in the contrary, I believe that as long as game mechanics are not too deeply messed up with, they precisely are what insures some kind of fairness --- nobody wants actual full on equality, I hope, do they? ;)
Quote: If my proposal was implemented, should the possible implant stat bonus be replaced or not?
I begin to wonder if we're not looking too close up at this case. Maybe any endeavour at reforming the meta-skills should be done through a complete overhaul of the training system.
However deep you're going to try and apply some leverage though, do keep in mind this famous quote from Niccol= Macchiavelli: "E debbasi considerare come non F cosa pi· difficile a trattare, nT pi· dubia a riuscire, nT pi· pericolosa a maneggiare, che farsi capo ad introdurre nuovi ordini. PerchT lo introduttore ha per nimici tutti quelli che delli ordini vecchi fanno bene, et ha tepidi defensori tutti quelli che delli ordini nuovi farebbono bene."
After a time, you'll overcome the pessimistic look of it ;)
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MyNameIs Max
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.11.20 18:07:00 -
[719]
Supported.
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Makumba Aki
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Posted - 2010.11.21 14:34:00 -
[720]
Originally by: ID102034234
I cannot count the new souls that left EVE after the trial periode, because everyone was saying "learn the learnings" (which you really should right now!)
1. It is just stupid to tell new players that they have to max out their learnings ASAP. I have mine on 5/4 and am totally happy with that, many people have even 4/4 or 4/3 and are happy. Especially because you need to play for more than 3 years to make this investment worth it.
2. If someone leaves eve because of the learnings, he would probably leave eve anway. Eve is not for unpatient people who want instant gratification. Eve gratificates you with delay. And this is true not only for learnings but for every skill in eve. The longer you play, the longer it takes you train certain skills (e.g. BS V). Even if everybody would get the learnings instantly for free, it would still take people 3 months till they can fly a battleship properly and would be thus able to do the big money. They would still have to spend a month flying small and unspectacular frigates. They would still have to read tons of tutorials and fitting guides.
So I still see no point in removing the learnings, besides that some old players would get some juicy skill points for free.
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Merijin
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Posted - 2010.11.24 16:25:00 -
[721]
i support this as well. Eve need new players.
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silent hunter44
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Posted - 2010.11.25 05:17:00 -
[722]
I have always trained the learning skills to a minimum of 5/4 on my accounts and have always hated it as it wasted basically a month of time before the toon can even start training on things that will make it a better pilot so maybe it will help if we look at it this way:
Keep the learning skills: Causes new players to curse at EVE, hate it and never play again
Remove them completely: Makes 7 year old pilot a bit angry, Why the hell should you care youve trained everything you wanted already HTFU and they won't quit EVE over it
Skills kept means a slower growth rate of players for EVE, get rid of them and that rate increases creating larger fleets/corps/alliances and of course fun.
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Mai Wei
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Posted - 2010.11.25 06:35:00 -
[723]
The arguments for the removal or modification of the Learning skills are ridiculous. You all want them removed because they are a hindrance to training skills that make you a better pilot. That's exactly what training those skills do. They allow you to train at a faster rate making you a better pilot faster.
In my opinion, you're all a bunch of whiners.
The patience gained from training Learning, Social, Leadership and Trade is invaluable for the new pilot in later EVE adventures. Without that patience, gate camping and pvp roams would never get organized. The patience needed to do the same missions over and over would never develop. Mining would never happen. EVE is a game of patience. Even a lone wolf ambusher needs patience going from belt to belt, system to system to find the right target.
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Gallians
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Posted - 2010.11.25 07:29:00 -
[724]
Originally by: Mai Wei nonsense
I disagree wholeheartedly. Games are meant to be fun, and the described activities are fun in themselves (yes, even mining, for some people, or bots, tmmv). Spinning in station? Not fun. The only thing that paying 15 dollars a month for spinning in station teaches is that you could be doing better with your 15 dollars.
How do I know this? because I have heard it from numerous people who have quit the game, some I introduced, some I didn't, who came here looking for the stuff in the trailers and found... the learnings.
Recognizing terrible design, design that chases away new players and encourages and rewards tedium and boredom, doesn't make one a whiner. I would say that it would show more concern for the future of the game and about it in general than self serving bittervet postures from people that have trained all they cared to and want to keep their advantage forever, doing their utmost to make eve as boring and pointless as possible as to never have to compete with anyone or lose their imaginary edge over the barely growing wastelands of new eden.
No, the whiners would be those closed to reason who stick to the way it is because they see it as a hindrance to new blood, and as such, good, in a perverse and nonsensical way. People who would make every facet of the game as tedious as possible. In short, you.
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:27:00 -
[725]
So CCP finally started to listen all the wise words in this topic.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=824
Personally I believed that they are lazy...Now I acknowledge them as dudes who can acknowledge good ideas.
Thank you all who gave yours versions of ideas, only to have one super idea which gave birth right here.
And some celebration music:
ojha!
Shoot your shot... |

Ilvrak
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:39:00 -
[726]
Плюс ко всем постам против этого изменения. Игра - это абстракция реальности. В реале лернинги существуют: Мы можем учиться учИться. Изучать скорочтение, логику различные парадигмы мышления и так далее. Ева отличается этим от всех остальных линеек и варкрафтов, что это игра для интеллектуалов, которые по жизни все время учатся и учатся учИться. Если это убрать, то она станет обычной игрой для задротов. Она уже в такую превращается неумолимо. Все попсеет и попсеет. Это отвратительно. Таково моё мнение.
Not supported. Not supported. Not supported.
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NWhisper
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:42:00 -
[727]
Not supported. worst change:(
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Zaboth Garadath
Amarr Ore Extraction Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:44:00 -
[728]
Originally by: NWhisper Not supported. worst change:(
Too Late!
Oh, only if you had said so before CCP made a blog about it!
You could have stopped it!
We would have learning skills forevermore!
no but really, too late m8 _____________________________________________
'If you really want to make someone hate you, explain to them, logically and politely, why they are wrong' - J. Baylock |

Jasdemi
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:39:00 -
[729]
All the bitter vets will cry now.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:47:00 -
[730]
CCP has just handed bittervets our single largest bonus in the history of EVE. Not only have we benefited from learning skills for years now, but we also get millions of skillpoints that we can invest wherever we want now.
It still would've been best not to institute this change, but for a change that was supposed to benefit new players CCP just granted an overwhelmingly huge bonus to older players. Want racial dread or carrier to V? Okay, that train will take you about 5 seconds. FC to V? Well, almost. Most bitter vets can go from leadership V to half way through FC V in, yep, five seconds once the boost goes through.
CCP's just made vets even more overwhelmingly beyond new players in terms of sp's. ------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
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WiddlyScuds
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:59:00 -
[731]
Im still confused by this and need a straight answer.
1. Will the removal of learning skills hurt the training time bonus that I currently have? 2. If it dosent how is it being fixed I get that the points are being added to the attributes but im still confused to the reason of why. 3. If the learning skills are being removed will there be another way to decrease the time that it takes to train a skill by increasing your base attributes with out a neural remap or implants?
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.11.25 17:54:00 -
[732]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero CCP's just made vets even more overwhelmingly beyond new players in terms of sp's.
You're not thinking it through, Finn.
Yeah, vets get the SP's to apply now. But noobs are instantly equal to vets in training rate, whereas normally they would have to spend time (X months) to train up learning skills equal to the vets. And at the end of that X month time period, they will have applied to their non-learning skills the same SP that the vets are getting refunded. So it comes out in the wash.
Both sides win, they just win in slightly different ways: Noobs train faster in the early months than they would have, which means they get to do more of the basic things faster. Vets get to apply some SP now, and have more opportunities for training arbitrage.
There are some edge cases where some people get slightly disadvantaged (and I am one of them, I set up a training plan just before CCP told CSM they wanted to do this, and I stuck to it despite my inside knowledge), but overall it is a big win for everyone.
Yes, noobs will never catch up with vets. But they were never going to do that anyway. And in any case, the real reason for this change IMHO is making the game a bit more noob-friendly.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Tityna Jama
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Posted - 2010.11.25 17:58:00 -
[733]
better fix lag |

Machinegunner Bob
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Posted - 2010.11.25 18:00:00 -
[734]
Not supported, bad idea. The EVE is differ in case with other MMORPG's with it's freedom of choice, and training 'useless' learning with next faster, or instant training 'must-have' skills is a part of that freedom. And you are want to kill a part of soul of EVE. I'll never agree with it. Thanks to all for attention. |

Norfinn
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Posted - 2010.11.25 18:16:00 -
[735]
Not supported. worst change:(
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.11.25 18:44:00 -
[736]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero CCP has just handed bittervets our single largest bonus in the history of EVE. Not only have we benefited from learning skills for years now, but we also get millions of skillpoints that we can invest wherever we want now.
It still would've been best not to institute this change, but for a change that was supposed to benefit new players CCP just granted an overwhelmingly huge bonus to older players. Want racial dread or carrier to V? Okay, that train will take you about 5 seconds. FC to V? Well, almost. Most bitter vets can go from leadership V to half way through FC V in, yep, five seconds once the boost goes through.
CCP's just made vets even more overwhelmingly beyond new players in terms of sp's.
Yeah, someone should make a Law! 
Chillax, bro. The decision has been made, so take the money (well, the SP) and save your energy for a more important battle.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |

Galleintak
Gallente Procion technologies
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:13:00 -
[737]
Edited by: Galleintak on 25/11/2010 19:13:51 big fail a whole demension of eve removed forever especially for newbs millions of free sp - only makes it more after u finished to distribute them (cause u got smth u wanted without effort)
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Gallians
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:17:00 -
[738]
Originally by: Galleintak Edited by: Galleintak on 25/11/2010 19:13:51 big fail a whole demension of eve removed forever especially for newbs millions of free sp - only makes it more after u finished to distribute them (cause u got smth u wanted without effort)
Big win! The whole demension consisted in spinning in station while paying monthly fees. A demension indeed.
Truly, a solution where everyone wins, noobs don't have to spin, bittervets are happy, everyone is happy.
Except for.. what do you call those things under bridges?... starts with a t or something.. its in the tip of my tongue.
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MNagy
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:09:00 -
[739]
Even though I was in favour of keeping the learning skills, the fact that I get my months of training back in sp that I can flush somewhere else I am content with. To me- this got rid of a little element of the 'sandbox' where a player choses to skill or not to skill.
But - with that said.... Fair to 99.9% of all people - everyone gets their training time back - lets start playing the game and stop beating this "dead horse" as it has been solved / patched.
See you all in the game.
Cheers'
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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:42:00 -
[740]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
You're not thinking it through, Finn.
No U! I mean, am too!
In any case it does come out in the wash over time, but instantly all of us vets can invest points into Noob Ganking V where new pilots will still have to spend time training up ****ting Up Local to IV before they can skill up for Tear Extraction V. So new players get to train up a bit faster to match older player rates, but older players can train up almost any skill in the game to V, instantly.
You are correct though, this change was largely instituted to help out new players and make their beginning game more friendly. I, for one, will do my part and skill up for some artie thrasher alts.
Originally by: Malcanis
Chillax, bro. The decision has been made, so take the money (well, the SP) and save your energy for a more important battle.
Oh, I'm chill. No argument here, just trying to figure out what I'm going to spend my noob-hammeringly-huge pool of free sp's on. Maybe I'll just keep a pool of them to deal with potential T3 losses. ------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
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Captain Libido
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Posted - 2010.11.25 23:33:00 -
[741]
Edited by: Captain Libido on 25/11/2010 23:33:29 Please for the sake of Mind do not change the working system as long as it is not broken. If you ask the casual eve player why he likes eve he will mention the awesome skill system in front of all facts so why change it? It just makes no sense. People just don't get that eve is not about skills its about fun and you don't need the biggest ship to have that fun besides even if you train for that big ship straightaway you get it faster than if you train all learning skills at V before starting to play the game.
The only proposition that would make the new system we already have, with the double SP till 1.6 mil, any better would be if the players that choose different ancestries get some learning skills. like if you choose Minmatar military soldier you get perc., adv. perc. and willpower skill at iV. Rest you would have to train like all the rest. If you choose to play as Amarr Business then ofc you will get other starting learning skills at iV. Maybe increase the double learn bonus cap to 1.6mil+the amount of sp you get in those learnings but that's not even necessary. That system would allow the players to train those skills of the profession they have chosen at the creation of character. Later on they can change that spec. They got 2 remaps for that.
The Players that quit eve because of learning skills will be the players that quit eve as soon as they notice that there are skills in game that take over one month to train like carrier or freighter. Or they will whine on the forums for as long as it takes to break CCP and remove the whole skill system.
My English is not as good as i would like it to be but i hope someone will get my point. I did not train the learning skills at V i did that after i could fly a dominix with shieldtank and t2 med drones.
The best solution for those learning skills would be that those people that tell all the newbies to train those at the beginning get banned or at least removed from forums because of giving bad advice.
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Moon Destroyer
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.11.26 12:12:00 -
[742]
Great move CCP.
It'll increase people's wish for playing EVE, because now it's geting easier to start. I didn't expect you gonna do it. Be ready to have +50 000 players this year. But you better deal with laggs we have.
P.S. You should have done it earlier
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