Sure, buying 99% of the tickets of a lottery doesn't garantee that you win either.. but you've got to be really, really, really dense to refuse to acknowledge the obvious advantage.



Yes, most games ARE pay to win. Surpriiiihise.

"The simple fact remains: paying does not give you any kind of advantage that can't be had without paying."
...except of being able to run multiple accounts

"Payment is not a factor in who wins a fight. "
...factor. Look it up.

Sure, buying 99% of the tickets of a lottery doesn't garantee that you win either.. but you've got to be really, really, really dense to refuse to acknowledge the obvious advantage.

Yes, most games ARE pay to win. Surpriiiihise.

...except of being able to run multiple accounts

...factor. Look it up.

Anyway, having multiple accounts is still not pay to win because you can have them while only paying RL monies for one of them (just like everything else in this game). That is the whole point of PLEX.

Edit: also the computers used to run the client is not a factor, as it is not itself part of the game nor controllable by CCP.

GǪor by having other characters help him out, for which he pays nothing. So yes, payment is not a factor.

You paying a wad of cash does not mean you will win anything.

You're trying to argue that numbers Gëí payment. The problem with that argument is that it makes P2W a completely useless term because it makes all multiplayer games ever P2W. You are basically arguing that Quake is P2W.

The simple fact remains: paying does not give you any kind of advantage that can't be had without paying. Payment is not a factor in who wins a fight. Thus there is no P2W. You can play as stupid as you like about it, but that just makes you seem stupid (surprise!).

But I had already addressed that point, that not all games are P2W, let me quote EFT:

GǪexcept that it's still not P2W GÇö it's GÇ£pay to participateGÇ¥ and it applies equally to everyone involved. Your payment provides exactly as much win as someone else's payment.

GǪexcept that for your argument to hold true, you must strictly equate numbers with payment. Otherwise, it's not payment that is a factor, but numbers.

Numbers win in the scenarios you've presented GÇö payment had nothing to do with it.

If you equate the two to make payment a factor, then guess what? All games are P2W because numbers (Gëí payment) wins the day in all games. If you dissociate numbers from payment, then your scenarios no longer prove anything about P2W.

Seems I'm being ignored...


Multiple accounts are not pay to win because those accounts can be free. End of arguments.

I think you're being ignored because nobody wants to touch your lack of understanding of the PLEX system with a 10 feet pole. But hey, I like wage slavery as much as you, and it's not like you're giving your ISK to someone whose main advantage over you is to have more real cash than you - oh wait..

Multiple accounts are not pay to win because those accounts can be free (including activation, which can be done via PLEX, ie free). End of arguments.

And Computers are not a factor because they are not part of the game. You might as well argue that having AC in your house makes you cooler and able to perform better, so that would be pay to win.

Numbers stem from accounts which have to be paid and funded. That's called payment.

In EvE, you can have an offgrid boosting alt, and just let your falcon alt/remote repping alt orbit your ship, press F1 Fx once and you're done.

"Dissociating numbers from payment": what you really mean is, "bring more friends".

I understand PLEX perfectly fine.


PLEX is not pay to win because ISK itself provides no direct advantage.

You can get everywhere in this game without PLEX. All PLEX does is shorten the amount of time you may have to grind/trade/scam. And increase the likelyhood that you will lose RL money by doing something stupid (PLEX in a shuttle).

Edit: and those accounts are are still free for the person who is using them (aside from time investment to get the isk to afford the PLEX).
And consider that CCP sometimes gives away PLEX, that even further undermines its potential as a P2W item.

PLEX is not pay to win because ISK itself provides no direct advantage.

Two players engage each other ingame. The multiple characters ran by a single player engage the single character ran by a single player and the single character is at a disadvantage, I get it so far.

The single player and single character can fix this by having multiple characters, that is, multiple accounts that cost money to fund, and possibly other computers to run. Payment is not a factor...

Then those accounts and computers are free! Isn't this neat? Thanks Tippia!


"Herp derp it's an mmo just get friends lol u suck at social skills no-life casual gamer that only plays on evenings just brings friends to the engagements and then the multiboxer brings his friends who may or may not multibox then everyone brings friends who may or may not multibox then in the end it's all a matter of who can field the most alts... well anyway you're just a friendless no-lifer unsociallyskilled casual entitled highsec dweller lol"

That's really intredasting

That would be the case if PLEX could only be bought with isk. But such is not the case.

Computers are a factor, all online games are designed so that lower-end comps can run them. They're not designed around best specs = advantage.


But that's not even the point. Your point is, EvE is not P2W. Why would you have a problem with EvE being really P2W? You accept spying, scamming and all kinds of meta, why don't you accept P2W?

It's trvly a cold and harsh universe, all the way up to its meta. You're a no-life welfare loser? Too bad for you.

I underlined one of the parts where your argument falls apart.

EVE accounts are for free! More news at 1!

...
EDIT: Of course you could argue that it would be the same if you a friend and he said "I'll pay for your account and you give me 500m", but let's face it, that guy on the market isn't your friend and he isn't just doing you a favour, he's doing 20 people a favour and with the ISK he buys his next titan or outpost.

Now say again that he isn't gaining an advantage with his dollar and euros.

GǪat which point all games become P2W because all games have GǣaccountsGǥ to provide the numbers that win the match.

You can't have it both ways.

Either numbers Gëí payment, in which case all games are P2W because for all games, numbers are win, thus payment is win.
Or numbers are not the same thing as payment, in which case it's not P2W in those games, nor is it P2W in EVE, because it's not payment that wins the fight but numbers.

The guy brings two friends, and you lose. Now what? He GÇ£paidGÇ¥ as much as you did, and yet you lost. He had the same numbers as you did (if we choose to dissociate the two), and yet you lost. The problem is that orbiting and pressing F1 doesn't help GÇö in fact, it makes your superior numbers payment worth a whole lot less because just like in those twitch games that you claim aren't like EVE, you cannot effectively control all the numbers you brought.

Congratulations, you just invented P2L.

What I mean is that payment isn't the same thing as numbers. I also mean that payment isn't a factor in winning in EVE GÇö numbers are. You can have one without having the other, and having the wrong thing wins you nothing.

If you haven't figured out how to fund multiple accounts easily without spending a dime yet you should probably stop posting now.

Numbers are characters, which are accounts. Whomever brings the most accounts has a clear advantage, whatever the number of playing rl dudes on either side. How is that hard to understand?

Numbers are characters, which are accounts. Whomever brings the most accounts has a clear advantage, whatever the number of playing rl dudes on either side. How is that hard to understand?

You can't have numbers without having paying RL persons paying for them.

Now this all asks for this quesiton: why do you have a problem with EvE being P2W?

Even if 50 ships meet 50 ships in space - as long as one side has to put 10 people in front of the pc while the other side is controlled by 50, that's a clear advantage for one side.

Gaining an advantage: yes.

Gaining an advantage that could not be gotten without paying: no.

That is the key. He is paying to have an advantage that someone else will have who did not pay. That is why it is not P2W. Because the advantage is not exclusive.

Come on....... just sit down for a minute. Really? Do you really believe what you just wrote? An advantage isn't an advantage because you can make the same ISK if you spend time instead of money on achieving the same thing?