If people are ignorant it is because they are willfully ignorant.

Seems ganking will be a far safer form of crime...

So a 100% chance of being blown up automatically by the game itself and the complete inability to do anything to prevent or delay it is Gǣfar saferGǥ than having a less-than-100% chance of players chasing you (and a less-than-100% chance of them killing you on top of that) and having every and all means available at your disposal to prevent and delay this chance of destructionGǪ

I don't think I particularly share your view on relative safety.

Most certainly. I can control the risk during ganking since I know exactly when i will blow up. I can't control other players and when they'll blow me up under the new CW rules if I'm stealing ****.

Furthermore, if I'm stealing **** I've likely got a cargohold full of stuff that I'll eventually want to sell and I'm not particularly looking forward to "surprisesecks".

Sure you can. You pick your time and place and ensure that you have a good hand-off in place to make the loot safe. Your focus will be to have a good get-away plan so you can safe up and cloak.

I'm not arguing that it will no longer be possible (or fun or require more skill), simply that it will be more dangerous. Does the punishment actually fit the crime? Under the current rules we have a sort of "eye for an eye" thing going. Under the new rules, stealing will be punishable by anyone, rather than the victim.

This is going to make very difficult for ninja looters in lowsec, that's for sure. I see the sun starting to set on the ninja looting profession.

Ganking for profit will likely be out. Ganking in general... unless the motivation is like that of the goons trying to influence the isotope market or something, but that will require significant numbers of players to achieve. Maybe it would be cool if having a vigilante flag gave people with a sec status below 0 the right to shoot them there could still be fighting in highsec.

Ganking for profit will likely be out.

In low-sec?

In high-sec, eh... I still think most people won't even bother except for a few dudes who will camp the docking rings in major missioning hubs and those butt-hurt idiots who get mad at salvagers (which shouldn't trigger a flag anyway...) I'll definitely still do it when I'm bored of whatever else I've been up to.

Ganking for fun is still in, lol. Oh Yeah's vigilante/criminal flags thing sounds pretty cool for pick-up PvP but I don't think it's a good system for actual punishment of crimes and would end up being a bit too "griefy" in the end. Who knows...

I honestly think CW 2.0 is a case of CCP going "What would be the easiest way to do this in code" and then doing it, rather than exploring what constitutes a crime and what the appropriate punishment should be.

Since I still own my wreck when I die, how does someone Suicide ganking my freighter pick up my stuff?

Nah. You just do what you do right now if you want to be really careful: have an Orca on standby (it blends in well in belts for one), and dump all ze lewt into the corp hangarGǪ

Then those orcas become a profitable target for vigilantes.

Nobody answered my question before

Jump-freighter drive-by with web support?

No. The Orca won't be flagged for anything (nor will it drop anything if someone decides to suicide-gank it). They'll be as unprofitable targets as ever.

Sure, you might lose the thief in his free Ibis, and depending on how the flagging works, you might even lose the thief's free clone. Oh myGǪ

Suddenly, BUMP!

Well, yes. Hence the GÇ£jumpGÇ¥ part GÇö add in an emergency cyno and fuel cost to that 21bn commitment.

No. Nothing in the Orca's special hangars drop on destruction. The other advantage is that the Orca can be largely passive in the whole deal since the thief can access the hangar on his own, which significantly simplifies (and secures) the hand-off: open Orca, open loot can, drag-drop-warp-failbecauseofscrams-die-beer. But yes, it's limited in what you can scoop up with that kind of setup.

The real question is what happens to NEUTRAL LOGISTICS Repping WAR TARGETS??

That is the only question that matters.

Neutral Logis repping someone that you committed a "Crime" against. Fine, whatever. I'll deal with it.

But WAR TARGET Neutral Logi's MUST have aggression transfer, OR be set as criminals for assisting in a WAR that they are not legitimately a part of, and this are fair game for everyone.

We allow one-time mappings but we don't make them transitive, ie if you're a suspect and someone shoots you then you can always fire back, but if that person has a third party repping them, you can't shoot the logi because we don't allow aggression transfer like that (for obvious reasons).

The real question is what happens to NEUTRAL LOGISTICS Repping WAR TARGETS??

Well, yes. Hence the GÇ£jumpGÇ¥ part GÇö add in an emergency cyno and fuel cost to that 21bn commitment.

Excuse me?

My god CCP, just remove all hi sec pvp and be done with it. That's clearly what you want to do.

We had a discussion this morning about the specific case of people RRing vigilantes. We're currently considering treating it like all other "neutral RR" situations under the new system, ie suspect-flagging you if you RR a vigilante, as this seems to iron out a lot of the wrinkles here and makes it more consistent with the rest of the design.

RTFT

Yah... me too... but we'll loose more ships. Lowsec is better for ninja looting because you loot player ships, which are way better than NPCs. I don't even know why people loot missions and stuff... not very good isk for the effort even under the current mechanics. I've tried it and was too bored and too broke. ...but yes the Crimewatch mechanic is very important in lowsec too...

Everyone I know who actually ganks for fun in highsec is pretty rich, imho. They are a minority of gankers. You may play with a bunch of people that do it for fun, but I'll wager all of your friends are doing pretty well in ISK terms too. Most of the people I know who gank in general are doing it for profit. Yah they have fun, but that's not their main objective. The loot is the imperative goal.

[Fair enough, but unless the Cyno's already lit, and the JF is really on the ball about jumping out, it's getting tackled by the insta-lock support (insta-lock for a JF is what, 0 SEBOs on a Frig?), and now we have a situation where that Frig escorting the freighter has to be suicided (or, for poops and giggles, the instalock Damnation). Who wants to try to Suicide a 720k EHP Damnation before he can shout "Free JF Kill" in Local?

(Oh, and as if the JF kill weren't enough, you get all the Logi trying to save it)