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Gabriel Rosencrantz
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Posted - 2010.06.05 00:30:00 -
[1]
To the Business Community of EVE:
It is with regret that Red Frog Freight announces that Vito Zornada, a former RF pilot, has absconded with 8 courier contracts. The freight had a total approximate value of more than 8 billion ISK.
Of the 8 contracts, 6 were issued without any collateral, and 2 were collateralized below the actual value of the contents of the package. The two courier contracts that had a value above the collateral contained items inside a can. Vito Zornada looked inside the cans that were inside the courier packages and determined that the value of the items exceeded the collateral.
Red Frog Freight is sorry that we accepted an untrustworthy pilot into Red Frog. We value our reputation highly, and we are distressed that we were not able to prevent the thefts. To those members of the MD community who have used our services and come to trust in our good name, we apologize. We hope that you will not forget our years of impeccable service and professionalism. Red Frog Freight looks forward to providing you that same level of service for years to come.
Red Frog Freight Directors and Pilots
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PinkFish
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Posted - 2010.06.05 00:39:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz
Of the 8 contracts, 6 were issued without any collateral
Why would anyone do this? It sounds like they were asking to get scammed. Even honest pilots would probably think twice about scamming when someone just waves 8 billion isk in their face.
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porth0s
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Posted - 2010.06.05 00:45:00 -
[3]
No offense to anyone who got ripped off, I know that sucks, but seriously who doesn't put collateral on the courier contracts. I mean, this is EVE.
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SetrakDark
Northstar Cabal
OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.05 00:48:00 -
[4]
Was Red Frog encouraging customers to not post full collateral based on their pilots trustworthiness? If yes, wtf? If no, then who cares?
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Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
K162
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Posted - 2010.06.05 01:19:00 -
[5]
Bummer for you guys I guess, but it doesn't really make Red Frog look bad imo. If some idiot doesn't add a collateral to his contract, then they deserved what they got.
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.05 01:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Vilgan Mazran
Bummer for you guys I guess, but it doesn't really make Red Frog look bad imo. If some idiot doesn't add a collateral to his contract, then they deserved what they got.
Indeed. Out of thousands of contracts only these 8 have been taken? If thats true then thats quite a track record, and still something to be proud of.
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.06.05 03:08:00 -
[7]
1. I assume these contracts were internal that had no collateral
2. Is Red frog reimbursing any customers who may be out of pocket
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Gabriel Rosencrantz
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Posted - 2010.06.05 03:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: SetrakDark
Was Red Frog encouraging customers to not post full collateral based on their pilots trustworthiness? If yes, wtf? If no, then who cares?
No. Red Frog's policy has always been a maximum collateral of 1 billion. This is solely to prevent suicide ganks. We are clear both in our trip calculator and in our FAQ that the max limit is 1 billion.
Originally by: cosmoray
1. I assume these contracts were internal that had no collateral
2. Is Red frog reimbursing any customers who may be out of pocket
No, these were not "internal contracts." These were regular contracts made by clients directly to Red Frog Investments without collateral or with insufficient collateral. Red Frog will not be reimbursing clients for insufficient collateral; the potential for abuse is too great. |
Jamie Hymenen
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Posted - 2010.06.05 04:10:00 -
[9]
RF prob makes that much in a week, I'm really disappointed in you guys on this one.
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Gabriel Rosencrantz
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Posted - 2010.06.05 04:13:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jamie Hymenen
RF prob makes that much in a week, I'm really disappointed in you guys on this one.
Red Frog Freight makes no money. 100% of all contract rewards go to the pilot. We charge no fees or dues. |
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Jamie Hymenen
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Posted - 2010.06.05 04:20:00 -
[11]
Looks like from now on I'll be using Cirkulos since RF doesn't want to take any responsibilty
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Ragonus
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Posted - 2010.06.05 04:45:00 -
[12]
I've been using RF for months and have always had prompt and professional service. The fact is: collateral is there for a reason. If the affected pilots had used it properly, the theft wouldn't have happened. I noticed I was able to look into a freight can that I courier-contracted to an alt, and thought to myself that this was something you couldn't do prior to Tyrannis. RF might want to give its customers some clarification on this mechanic and if this is the case, has there been any change in the ability of a gank-squad to scan the contents of the cargo when packaged in this way?
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Gabriel Rosencrantz
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Posted - 2010.06.05 05:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ragonus
RF might want to give its customers some clarification on this mechanic and if this is the case, has there been any change in the ability of a gank-squad to scan the contents of the cargo when packaged in this way?
The FAQ will be updated in the next 24hrs to clarify the importance of accurate collateral. While accurate collateral has always been essential, we agree that it is important that the mechanic be fully explained for those who are unfamiliar with the particulars. Our initial tests indicate that the contents cannot be scanned by cargo scans, nor can a pilot view the contents of a can within a courier contract in his hold while the pilot is in space. |
Syds Sinclair
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Posted - 2010.06.05 06:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jamie Hymenen
Looks like from now on I'll be using Cirkulos since RF doesn't want to take any responsibilty
..I'll bite. You voted for Barak Obama didn't you? It looks like RF Freight is being responsible by updating their FAQ and making this thread. The person who is responsible is the pilot(s) who undervalued their goods and did not put a collateral on the contracts.
Keep up the great work RF Freight. I made a contract with you this morning, and I will do so in the future as well.
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Sawyer LaFleur
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Posted - 2010.06.05 07:37:00 -
[15]
I don't know about you guys but I was impressed that they came rigth out and told the story themselves on this most public commerce spot.
Thumbs up for facing bad events head on. For the gripers they couldn't be more clear what their policy is in terms of risk... and this disclosure underlines that point. Clearly they don't like the bad press but they're upright enough to disclose when things go wrong.
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KiaTader
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Posted - 2010.06.05 07:54:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sawyer LaFleur
I don't know about you guys but I was impressed that they came rigth out and told the story themselves on this most public commerce spot.
Thumbs up for facing bad events head on. For the gripers they couldn't be more clear what their policy is in terms of risk... and this disclosure underlines that point. Clearly they don't like the bad press but they're upright enough to disclose when things go wrong.
*Hands Sawyer LaFleur a beer*
So true, so true |
L Abrat
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Posted - 2010.06.05 08:09:00 -
[17]
Quote:
I don't know about you guys but I was impressed that they came rigth out and told the story themselves on this most public commerce spot.
Thumbs up for facing bad events head on. For the gripers they couldn't be more clear what their policy is in terms of risk... and this disclosure underlines that point. Clearly they don't like the bad press but they're upright enough to disclose when things go wrong
^^ this , adds Vito Zornada to the "do not hire" list (any idea who is his main?)
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.05 08:29:00 -
[18]
It is bad form in my opinion to mess with the pillars of the EVE community, such as:
* Chribba
* EVE University
* Red Frog Freight
Even if you've personally never dealt with them, be assured that EVE is a better place for having them around.
I don't see this incident affecting Red Frog Freight's reputation.
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Kalrand
Kalrand's POS Removal Corp
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Posted - 2010.06.05 08:43:00 -
[19]
Why would people put up contracts with lass-than-adequate collateral?
It was always my understanding that Red Frog was more of a freighter service clearing house than "Gabriel Rosencrantz will move your stuff for you".
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Romanov DeBeers
Gallente
Small Gods
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Posted - 2010.06.05 08:55:00 -
[20]
Zito's just picked up one of my standard courier contracts heading from Jita to Dodidxie.
Small high value but properly colateraled
Wonder if it will get delivered
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Alexi Blue
Serra Technologies
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Posted - 2010.06.05 09:31:00 -
[21]
I used RF in the past and I will continue to do so. If someone puts no collateral on their courier contract it's their own fault. Collateral is there for a reason and if the actual value exceeds 1B you can always split the cargo into two packages. Thieves and scammers will always be present in EVE and nobody is immune to them. This incident shouldn't hurt RF's reputation and I don't think they should be under any obligation to reimburse the losses.
---
Serra Blueprint Store |
flakeys
DRAMA Inc
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Posted - 2010.06.05 09:41:00 -
[22]
Shows good spirit to reveal this to the public but i have a question:Did you also make this statement on your WTS thread since i assume a high percentage of your users is not MD readers.Even amongst a lot of traders the MD forum is either not read or 'unknown'and not everyone who uses your service is by definition a trader.
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Chaos Dreams
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Posted - 2010.06.05 10:14:00 -
[23]
I've never had a problem with RFF.
No clue why people would set up a courier contract with no collateral. Even if no one had stolen there would still be the risk of ganks. The overly trusting and/or lazy people who made the contracts are to blame for their own losses.
Good of you to come forward with the information, though.
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Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society
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Posted - 2010.06.05 11:02:00 -
[24]
I once put up a contract with a 1b reward and a 5m collateral. They refunded the money to the correct amount and delivered the job anyways. Anyone who quits using them over this is dumb and shortsighted.
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Leonard Harvey
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Posted - 2010.06.05 11:14:00 -
[25]
My Corp has used Red Frog Freight on many occasions and all cargo has arrived safely.
Since these events, I would be even more inclined to use their services because of the honesty and how they are approaching this situation. People who do not put the correct collateral on their contracts are asking to be scammed.
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Kalrand
Kalrand's POS Removal Corp
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Posted - 2010.06.05 11:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
I once put up a contract with a 1b reward and a 5m collateral. They refunded the money to the correct amount and delivered the job anyways. Anyone who quits using them over this is dumb and shortsighted.
So *that's* where the sov money went.
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Onyth
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Posted - 2010.06.05 13:47:00 -
[27]
As most people in here, I most certainly agree that RF has absolutely no blame in this.
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Jamie Hymenen
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Posted - 2010.06.05 13:53:00 -
[28]
Don't you do background checks on your frieghter pilots or can anyone just join up
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mental maverick
Duty.
Duty. Private Security
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Posted - 2010.06.05 13:57:00 -
[29]
I don't see how Red Frog can be held responsible for this as it is up to the contracteur to put in the appropriate collateral as other people have allready stated.
Also on the "mechanics are difficult to understand" thing. I had never used a courier contract before the first time I used Red Frog, so I simple joined their public channel and asked how it was done to get verification I had understood correctly from the instructions.
Cant remember who exactly I was talking to back then but they were very helpful and even checked that I had got the first one correct before I put up the other ones.
Outstanding service and this will in no way keep me from using Red Frog again.
Keep up the good work boys!
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Ildryn
The Inf1dels
En Garde
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Posted - 2010.06.05 14:37:00 -
[30]
I set all collateral to 1 bill when they ship for me. They have never complained and everything is shipped withing the day.
I also always add a few mill to the contract. Shipping must be boring. Hell they even shipped for me while at war once.
Congrats guys. I am still your loyal customer.
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Bob Rockbreaker
Minmatar
Minmatar Mining and Manufacturing Group
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Posted - 2010.06.06 06:26:00 -
[31]
Nice to see RF being upfront about this. Nobody's perfect, Dealing with problems like this quickly and clearly goes a long way in favor of trusting you guys, IMHO. I was wondering why my contract was running longer than usual, and appreciate knowing now rather than later. That right there will keep me on as a customer.
And yes - Set the collateral to a price you're willing to part with the cargo at. A courier contract is as much an option to buy as it is a delivery job, Even if most people don't use it that way. I set my collateral accordingly. And if this [redacted] never delivers, It's inconvenient, but little real loss.
Thanks again for the prompt explanation. ISK can't possibly buy that.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.06.06 10:24:00 -
[32]
As one of RF's larger customers, I would like to make it clear that they have my continued support, and I will be offering a suitable prize for whichever of their pilots completes my 1000th contract for them.
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34.4:1 mineral compression |
Thoraxe Rig
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.06 13:44:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Thoraxe Rig on 06/06/2010 13:44:24
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
As one of RF's larger customers, I would like to make it clear that they have my continued support, and I will be offering a suitable prize for whichever of their pilots completes my 1000th contract for them.
You should offer a prize for the corpse of the one who did this to RFF. 
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Bek Thyron
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Posted - 2010.06.06 16:17:00 -
[34]
Still a great and fast and reliable service you offer guys.
And to the guys who got scammed - your fault. Never issue contracts without collateral.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.06.06 16:29:00 -
[35]
There is no way to determine when employee fraud will occur. The only protection against that is to develop processes which offer protection both to protect customers (from employee misconduct) and to protect employees (from false claims). Red Frog apparently has done that long before this incident.
The consequences of failing to follow proper procedure is upon the party (parties) that was obligated to do so. Red Frog's obligation is clearly defined and accepted by any customer that clicks submit on any contract.
However I wholeheartedly approve of Red Frog's "name & shame" action/policy. Just because it is the customer(s) fault that loss was possible the person who did the stealing should not be able to continue stealing. Expulsion and disclosure is the proper thing to do.
/salutes
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
TwitchyB
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Posted - 2010.06.07 16:10:00 -
[36]
It would be a shame to see the actions of one pilot corrupting the impecable reputation that RF has built.
Anyone placing a contract not to someone they know and trust is open to a possible scam, unfortunatly that's the way the world works both RL and in game.
I understand and fully back RF's policy to not reimburse losses to those unfortunate's affected by the theft as I agree it is open to abuse in the same light as suicide ganking etc.
I for one will be continuing to use the services provided and I encourage all pilots to do the same. RF I salute you o7
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Dzil
Caldari
SafeHouse Investments of Tautology
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Posted - 2010.06.07 17:42:00 -
[37]
Thanks for being honest about the loss up front. Though it does beg the question, if Red Frog doesn't guarantee your cargo will arrive when and where you want it to, what is gained by limiting you contract exclusively to Red Frog pilots?
Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :) |
Yu Haul
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Posted - 2010.06.07 17:45:00 -
[38]
been using RF Freight for a wile and, because this incident, will check the collateral what being put into the contracts twice
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.06.07 19:02:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Dzil
Thanks for being honest about the loss up front. Though it does beg the question, if Red Frog doesn't guarantee your cargo will arrive when and where you want it to, what is gained by limiting you contract exclusively to Red Frog pilots?
Consistent pricing and consistent service, even for extremely large shipments. If you know of any other corp capable of reliably moving over 70 freighter loads in 1 night, do tell.
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34.4:1 mineral compression |
Fishslapper
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Posted - 2010.06.08 01:10:00 -
[40]
I'm a loyal Red Frog user... After the PB pull out, they lugged all my ships half way across the galaxy... Will still use them...
But really, with any contract, if your collateral is short, You're a muppet...
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.06.08 05:59:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Jamie Hymenen
RF prob makes that much in a week, I'm really disappointed in you guys on this one.
Originally by: Jamie Hymenen
Looks like from now on I'll be using Cirkulos since RF doesn't want to take any responsibilty
Originally by: Jamie Hymenen
Don't you do background checks on your frieghter pilots or can anyone just join up
There seems to be a problem here, your tears, they taste like olives. Why this, why so bitter?
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Ave Volta
Red Frog Investments
Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.08 06:09:00 -
[42]
First off, thanks for all the support from our customers here.
I also wanted to put this unfortunate incident into the context that we are rapidly approaching the completion of 12,000 contracts since January 1st, 2010. Rest assured that we have taken this incident very seriously. It in no way represents our service beyond this isolated incident.
--------------------------------
chown -R us:us /yourbase |
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CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.08 10:37:00 -
[43]
Moved from General Discussion to Crime & Punishment.
Navigator
Senior Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Darthion Illys
Amarr
Tyrans d'Or
Umbrella Chemical Inc
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Posted - 2010.06.08 11:09:00 -
[44]
Anyone who doesn't put collateral that covers the full value of what's being shipped, kind of has it coming to them.
No blame on RF as a corp at all.
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Lightningshade
Caldari
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2010.06.08 11:39:00 -
[45]
RF - Standards very well set, and do not differ from them. A very good firm and I will still use when necessary.
They generally exceed expectations and Locin et al will still retain reputation in my eyes
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.06.08 11:50:00 -
[46]
Also posting to confirm that RFF is a quality service that I use myself, and the actions of one pilot (who saw an inexcusably easy opportunity to steal) will not deter me from using them again.
Thank you for the level of openness surrounding this.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
If you're going to quote me that's great, but it must be something I've actually said. Shadow.
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sigash
Nephite Tribe
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Posted - 2010.06.08 12:03:00 -
[47]
Congratulations to Red Frog for swift, effective and professional damage control. I've never used a freight company in the past, but I know where I would place my trust.
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Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Kamikaze Project
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Posted - 2010.06.08 14:09:00 -
[48]
Cache cleared. |
Doccia Ellicis
Caldari
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.08 15:36:00 -
[49]
Yeah, since the contracts were originally set up without sufficient collateral, I don't think it is RFF's responsibility to reimburse the losses. However, I will no longer trust RFF to deliver anything exceeding 1 billion due to the maximum collateral limit.
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Alazontez Gallenteur
Gallente
Wolf-Monkey Bastards
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Posted - 2010.06.08 17:39:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Xearal
Originally by: sigash
Congratulations to Red Frog for swift, effective and professional damage control. I've never used a freight company in the past, but I know where I would place my trust.
Quoted for Truth.
Before this incident, I had never heard of RFF before, however, the way they handled this incident and the repercussions, as well as their regular business operations which I've read, I firmly believe the company as a whole is a good place to trust my valueables to get where i want them if I decide to have someone do some shipping for me.
I couldn't agree with you more
----------------------------------------------
There is no honor in war, only victory and defeat
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BeachParty
Caldari
Semi Precious
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Posted - 2010.06.08 18:24:00 -
[51]
Hmm, billion ISK Freighters, imagine the possibilities.
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Iltarus Almondis
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.08 19:52:00 -
[52]
Even though I am not a regular customer, the only effect of this will be that I will keep using RF no matter what. Since I always put the collateral to at least 1.5 times the worth of the cargo, I dont see any problems.
Keep going, RF
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SCLZ
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Posted - 2010.06.08 22:12:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Jamie Hymenen
Don't you do background checks on your frieghter pilots or can anyone just join up
What sort of background check can guarantee a pilot won't run off with cargo worth 8 billion ISK with little or no collateral?
Anyone who doesn't put any (I still can't get over that, seriously... zero collateral!) or insufficient collateral is asking for trouble. Of course Red Frog shouldn't reimburse those that had things stolen, that's what the collateral mechanic is for - if you don't use it you do so at your own risk. |
ItsmeHcK1
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Posted - 2010.06.09 01:58:00 -
[54]
The stupidity of players is something RF can't do anything about.
I like the honesty and the sincerety, will use again. :) (so far about 10bil shipped and counting)
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Soon Shin
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Posted - 2010.06.11 01:44:00 -
[55]
I have used them only once, but I can say I will be using them again. I applaud them for coming out with this. The ones who didn't put collateral was the one at fault. It is clearly stated by Red Frog that they must put collateral on the contracts.
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z0de
The Bastards
The Tusker Bastards
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Posted - 2010.06.11 02:08:00 -
[56]
any contracts with 0 collateral should be considered a donation to Red Frog from now on.
á
á
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Slimy Worm
Sons of Viagra
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Posted - 2010.06.11 10:46:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz
To the Business Community of EVE:
It is with regret that Red Frog Freight announces that Vito Zornada, a former RF pilot, has absconded with 8 courier contracts. The freight had a total approximate value of more than 8 billion ISK.
Of the 8 contracts, 6 were issued without any collateral, and 2 were collateralized below the actual value of the contents of the package. The two courier contracts that had a value above the collateral contained items inside a can. Vito Zornada looked inside the cans that were inside the courier packages and determined that the value of the items exceeded the collateral.
Red Frog Freight is sorry that we accepted an untrustworthy pilot into Red Frog. We value our reputation highly, and we are distressed that we were not able to prevent the thefts. To those members of the MD community who have used our services and come to trust in our good name, we apologize. We hope that you will not forget our years of impeccable service and professionalism. Red Frog Freight looks forward to providing you that same level of service for years to come.
Red Frog Freight Directors and Pilots
lol
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tomd741
Death Revolution
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Posted - 2010.06.11 11:45:00 -
[58]
I have never heard of you guys but after reading this I will use you in the future for my hauling needs. It takes a lot of honor and courage to come out like this and admit something like this. Kudos and you just got a new client in the future. And to the ppl who didn't use collateral, sorry you lost your stuff but that is why collateral is used.
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Vito Zornada
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Posted - 2010.06.12 22:52:00 -
[59]
Just sold the last of it off! It was a good run, but I think the valuation was closer to 6B in assets.
Red Frog is awesome and I'll still continue to use them through various alts.
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CCP Applebabe
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Posted - 2010.07.10 09:24:00 -
[60]
Thread locked as user requested.
Applebabe
Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Contact us |
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Kappas Katamara
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Posted - 2010.07.12 07:26:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Vito Zornada
Just sold the last of it off! It was a good run, but I think the valuation was closer to 6B in assets.
Red Frog is awesome and I'll still continue to use them through various alts.
lol
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