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Pokechan333	Posted - 2010.06.14 07:06:00 - [1] How about give them a covert ops cloak? The basic T1 cruiser variant oupreforms them price wise and preformance wise, which makes almost nobody want to fly them. Giving them cov ops cloaks would be great and make them actually useful
Sophy Rhiannon	Posted - 2010.06.14 07:51:00 - [2] You're doing it wrong then.
Max Tux	Posted - 2010.06.14 08:27:00 - [3] IMO they need; EHP boost: prob an extra 50-100% EHP smaller Sig: cut 20m ~ from each sig slightly more cap: something like 10% more slightly faster: something like 10%
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.14 08:41:00 - [4] Originally by: Max Tux IMO they need;... Only if the objective is to make them walk all over every other frigate, including AF's .. Give them the same lock range and signature as the T1 hulls and lower mass ever so slightly to give a little better speed/agility. Allows them to choose whether to stay at range using primary eWar or get closer to deploy secondary. Quick, simple and doesn't clash horribly with other ships.
Max Tux	Posted - 2010.06.14 09:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Max Tux IMO they need;... Only if the objective is to make them walk all over every other frigate, including AF's .. Give them the same lock range and signature as the T1 hulls and lower mass ever so slightly to give a little better speed/agility. Allows them to choose whether to stay at range using primary eWar or get closer to deploy secondary. Quick, simple and doesn't clash horribly with other ships. They have a base EHP of less than 2K with level 5's, even fitting a MSE, their EHP is still low. The EHP boost wouldn't make up for the better resists of the AF's. It wouldn't make the OP, but would defiantly make them worth flying more.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.06.14 09:50:00 - [6] 25% max lock range across the board. Trade the reduced sig radius bonus to a reduced sig from MWDs on the Hyena. Reduce mass to give them better agility and top speeds (ideally, between interceptors and AFs). *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.06.14 10:11:00 - [7] Edited by: 1600 RT on 14/06/2010 10:12:23 -more fitting -more low/med slots edit: lol at at the method "this ship sux lets give it a cov ops cloak"
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.06.14 10:17:00 - [8] they are far too slow, unagile and easy to kill. making them as tough or as fast as AFs will perhaps make some (sentinel) overpowered. I do not think an over all 25% this or 20% that accross all is whats needed, they should have some buffs based on their hull and EW. A sentinel would benifit from some speed to make best use of its TDs, the kitsune needs a bit more range overall and some more speed, the keres needs far more ehp and a touch of range - and as for the hyena just a bit more ehp (its speed is okay) theres a reason for the EAS frigs to be the least used of all T2 ships according to the latest QEN, think about their low cost, skill training and avilailty verses blackops and marauders. Perhaps change their roles completely perhaps people just dont want a frig that does EW well, i know i dont, but i know some changes (above) that might tempt me.
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Bite me inc.	Posted - 2010.06.14 14:21:00 - [9] The problem with current EA frigates is that they are not worth their price. They provide a certain role on the field, which is specialized ewar. They ARE meant to get blown up and primaried, pilots know this. Their purpose is to provide ewar long enough on hostiles as to let your fleet gain the upper hand in the battle, to die in a honourable flame of having fullfilled its duty. In order for the above scenario to be plausible, and for pilots to actually concider playing this part in a fleet, some changes need to be made. As it stands right now EA frigates have some issues. The issues preventing it from fullfilling its designated role (and, if you like, as CCP 'intended') stated above can be summised as one SINGLE problem: Its ewar/projected survivability graph is all wrong. It provides too little ewar for too short a lifespan to be worth flying over any other frigate hull that has a much better rolespecific ability/projected lifespan. Thus to fix EA frigates one or both of the above stated issues could be addressed, let's look at both of them in turn and subdivide. 1. It's 'ability', or in other words, effects it can project onto enemies and/or friendlies that are beneficial to the gang. In order to increase the 'ability' rating of the EA frigates certain steps can be taken: - One could add on top of the abilities currently inhabited by EA frigates by adding new ones such as: cloaking, probing or any form of Ewar not currently covered by them. - One could broaden it's ability by adding side 'roles' to it in the form of for instance: adding more offensive (hp dmg) power, a better projection of said power and/or abilities. - One could increase its current bonuses thus directly increasing its current efficiency with its current arsenal. 2. It's 'projected lifespan', or in other words, how fast and for how long the EA frigate can do its 'job' before dying in projected engagements. In order to increase the 'lifespan' rating of EA frigates the following steps can be taken: - One could simply increase raw hitpoints and/or resistances thus merely increasing its lifespan under hostile fire. - One could take actions to decrease damage sustained on the ship by either making it faster (and/or more agile), making the signature smaller and/or increasing the range of it's 'ability', all to reduce incoming damage and enlargen the projected lifespan. Those are rougly the non-specific scematics of what can be done, these are not in a 'practical' form of "+1 medslot" or the likes and that might seem useless and irritating to some of you, but rest assured this is done on purpose. The matter of EA frigates is not "what specific fix would fix them" but "which role should it be enhanced on". It is not a matter of working bottom to top by insinuating a 'fix' and then waiting for the results to filter through as the players on TQ find and exploit all the new posibilities of so called 'fix'. To effectively enhance EA frigates (or any other 'broken' ship (type) for that matter) one first has to decide which specific aspect of it you'd like to address and improve upon. Once this has taken place THEN can you decide which practical application 'fix' would yield the desired result. TL;DR: You're doing it wrong. __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Aliraxi Gallente Cow Boys From HeII	Posted - 2010.06.14 15:36:00 - [10] I'd be happy with a lock range boost. Optimal range of jammarz on a Kitsune (for me) is 75km. While the ship can only target 50 with purdy good skills Side note: If the cruiser is outperforming the EAF. urdoinitrong Can I has a cookie?

Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.06.14 16:42:00 - [11] Originally by: Aliraxi I'd be happy with a lock range boost. Optimal range of jammarz on a Kitsune (for me) is 75km. While the ship can only target 50 with purdy good skills Side note: If the cruiser is outperforming the EAF. urdoinitrong Kitsune: High: Whatever Mid: Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters SB II W/ Targeting Range Three Racial Jammers of choice Low: SDA II x 2 Rigs: Ionic Field Projectors x 2 128km lock range. 86km optimal and 53km falloff on jammers. 10.76 strength. Take one of the ionic field projector rigs off and replace it with a particle dispersion projector and you have a 105km lock range w/ a 100km optimal on the jammers. Of all the EAS the caldari one (surprise surprise) is the best.
Indeterminacy THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.06.14 17:14:00 - [12] Edited by: Indeterminacy on 14/06/2010 17:16:49 Originally by: Zarnak Wulf impressive targeting range stats, etc, etc and then... Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Three Racial Jammers of choice :facepalm: +1 to buff kitsune target range. Not like it will be OP. It's still hampered by Caldari Powergrid and will never have a tank.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.06.14 17:27:00 - [13] I wouldn't argue with a lock range boost tbh. Griffin's natural lock range is 75km. That kind of kills any argument against it. I still think the fits above are the only way to fly an e-war frigate with a sig radius of 57m and be an asset in any form to your group.
Sebastien LaForge Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.06.14 18:03:00 - [14] I've got an idea, how about we buff the other ewar to bring it into line with ECM? As in, make it a viable form of electronic warfare. Or you know, just buff Damps since they're pretty much terrible.
Indeterminacy THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.06.14 18:04:00 - [15] Edited by: Indeterminacy on 14/06/2010 18:04:59 yeah the fit is fine. the problem is the poor target range which requires something be done to enhance it. (a low, mid, or rig slot+). And you chose to use a mid...which is my last choice given the 3 tbh. Originally by: Sebastien LaForge I've got an idea, how about we buff the other ewar to bring it into line with ECM? As in, make it a viable form of electronic warfare. Or you know, just buff Damps since they're pretty much terrible. ECM is a form of EWAR.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.14 19:11:00 - [16] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 14/06/2010 19:11:33 Originally by: Zarnak Wulf I wouldn't argue with a lock range boost tbh. Griffin's lock range with full skills is 75km. That kind of kills any argument against it. Not sure anyone is debating the Griffin but rather the T2 Kitsune which is not so lucky, it has lower lock-range AND the eWar range bonus = hugglez poof EAS die: - From the low EHP because they have to be stupidly close to whatever they are painting/jamming/TD'ing/dampening due to having lower lack range than their T1 counterparts. - From their fat asses as they have bigger signatures than their T1 counterparts. Sort those and survivability comes down to pilot skills, smaller size and 10-20km more range is a massive tank increase (they should bloody die at point blank as all eWar boats so EHP is moot).
Starbuck Caldari Goldadler Enterprises The Seventh Legion	Posted - 2010.06.14 21:13:00 - [17] Why not give it the ablity to detect cloaked ships easier. --------------------------------------------------- Have Rail's. Will travel.
Gavin Miner	Posted - 2010.06.14 21:22:00 - [18] uniqueness. simple word, and one they lack. nothing an eas does can't be done by a couple T1 frigates. an a T1 frigate costs at most 200K ISK, an EAS is still what? 20 million? so I can recruit 10 newbies fit them out ships and set them in the Ewar role, maybe spend 2 days teaching them how to DO the job and WAY out perform the single EAS in the role. honostly, there's nothign you can do, EAS are completely useless when a blob of T1 frigs is better.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.06.14 21:43:00 - [19] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/06/2010 21:45:27 Meh. EAFs are hopelessly broken, and I don't imagine they can be fixed without someone crying foul about how they obsolete everything in the whole game. My take is that all EAFs usually lack survivability as well as something specific - here's some options/comments: - Survivability: MWD Sig - good bonus. Doesn't have to be as strong as the inty bonus to help a lot. - Survivability: AB velocity - scary bonus. We saw that execution of this one is going to be very tricky, but we have the advantage here that we don't expect these ships to get up close. Conversely, this severely limits the utility of the bonus because most of the time their goal is to stay out of range! - Survivability: A bunch of HP/Resists - I don't like this because it very much impinges upon the role I'd imagine for an AF and is very un-frigatey. - The Keres cannot possibly be successful as long as it has a shorter scram bonus than the Arazu - and the reason for this is that the "primary" ewar (damps) is so hilariously broken that nobody in their right mind would fit it. Either fix damps or increase the scram bonus to match the recon bonus. - The Kitsune is hilariously long ranged - so much so that it requires a SeBo to even use its bonus. IMO it should focus on ewar from ~50km and have its ECM bonus strengthened appropriately. - The Hyena is really pathetic because its only real use is to **** with ships that can instantly vaporize it (Vaga, Curse, Cynabal, etc). I guess you could have one fly around with your torp raven fleet but that's really niche. I'd recommend doing something about web range bonuses as a whole before doing anything with the Hyena. - The Sentinel almost works. I think with the extra survivability (see above) and some fittings (1-2 grid IMO) it might just be worthwhile. Really, what I found telling about EAFs was that according to the QEN there's less than 300 (of the entire ship class) active in the entire game. Anyone saying even the Sentinel or Kitsune are 'fine' is out of their mind. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Garamond	Posted - 2010.06.14 22:38:00 - [20] I remember when I first heard about these ewar tech 2 frigates I was all for it. I liked flying a Griffin now and again. I ran out and bought the book and trained it to level 1. I then looked at the ships to see which one I wanted and laughed at the price. No way are they worth that. Not when a Griffin is just as good. I would consider 3 million to be a reasonable price. I would probably cough up 4 million just to try one out as the new shiny. for 12-15 million. It would have to seriously outperform a Blackbird or have something unique about it. Like that cloak detection mentioned above.

Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.06.14 22:49:00 - [21] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 14/06/2010 22:49:45 EAFs are a stupid idea. Tacking on a covops cloak on every ship is even stupider, particularly on every EW ship. Buy a Falcon. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.06.15 01:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Liang Nuren - The Kitsune is hilariously long ranged - so much so that it requires a SeBo to even use its bonus. IMO it should focus on ewar from ~50km and have its ECM bonus strengthened appropriately. Anyone saying even the Sentinel or Kitsune are 'fine' is out of their mind. -Liang It is fine, just not great. 3 x Salvager II 4 x Racial Jammer (best named for cap reasons) 1 x Cat Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thruster 2 x Sig Dist Amp II 2 x Small Ionic Field Projector Operates at just under 80km and has the size/speed to stay out of trouble. It's not stronger than a BB but it'll live longer and that's handy since a dead e-war ship jams nothing. Snipers will ruin it unless you jam them but, again, BB's and Falcons/Rooks have that issue as well. There are worse ways to spend the isk. I do agree quite strongly that EAF's in general need some boosting though. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.06.15 01:41:00 - [23] I agree completely with giving them covert cloak. Or even make the current EAF slightly more tanky (either through ehp, sig radius reduction or whatever) and make a second cloaking EAF so they are like frigate version of recon ship.
Pokechan333	Posted - 2010.06.15 02:23:00 - [24] The point of giving them the cloak is pretty much making them mini recon ships to be honest
Vorax Vorago	Posted - 2010.06.15 04:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Pokechan333 How about give them a covert ops cloak? The basic T1 cruiser variant oupreforms them price wise and preformance wise, which makes almost nobody want to fly them. Giving them cov ops cloaks would be great and make them actually useful You know it's funny, I was just about to make a thread suggesting this same thing. Glad I saw this first.
Noisrevbus Caldari Breams Gone Wild	Posted - 2010.06.15 09:02:00 - [26] Edited by: Noisrevbus on 15/06/2010 09:02:42 Originally by: Stuart Price Operates at just under 80km and has the size/speed to stay out of trouble. It's not stronger than a BB but it'll live longer and that's handy since a dead e-war ship jams nothing. Snipers will ruin it unless you jam them but, again, BB's and Falcons/Rooks have that issue as well. There are worse ways to spend the isk. I do agree quite strongly that EAF's in general need some boosting though. You kind of negated your own setup there and brought up the issues yourself. It costs more than a Blackbird without being stronger. Wether it'll live longer or not rely plenty on the comp/opposition you face, in general, i'd say calling it more survivable than Blackbird is a stretch - even if it's not customary to tank throwaway Blackbirds. As for the other ships, while they may be difficult to keep alive for logistics or keep on grid, they are not impossible to keep afloat in their correct setting. Rooks can usually field a tank respective of the gang it's in (eg., LR HACs), Falcons both have the cloak to rely on and also sport the odd LSE or Plate used in combination with Logistics, range-denial, cloaks and warp out/ins. Obviously not the most sturdy ships, but the Kitsune has a sig of 350 burning it's MWD with an unbuffered EHP of 1500-2000. More or less any ship with sufficient range and cruiser-sized weapons is likely to instapop that. Every LR HAC, any reasonably skilled Drake pilot, all hostile Frigates. The list of quite common ships being immidiate threats to a Kitsune tend to get quite long, fairly quick.
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.15 10:26:00 - [27] Edited by: 1Ekrid1 on 15/06/2010 10:27:18 IMO all frigs need a 20% EHP boost, other than that there is nothing wrong with EA frigs. if you got blown up in one, blame ur gang. try this i you're having trouble. get the amarr EA ship. Put two 200mm plates on it. cruise control to victory. its not that hard guys.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.06.15 10:52:00 - [28] Blaster boats need boost, lets give them a cov ops cloak too
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.06.15 11:02:00 - [29] giving EAFs covert ops cloak is a bad idea, IMO only coverts and covert related ships like black ops and recons should get this ability. Why not simply boost their effectivity with higher bonus values? Ewar ships are usually always primary, so they should be effective at least.
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.15 11:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Robert Caldera giving EAFs covert ops cloak is a bad idea, IMO only coverts and covert related ships like black ops and recons should get this ability. Why not simply boost their effectivity with higher bonus values? Ewar ships are usually always primary, so they should be effective at least. Or we could give more T1 frigs very small bonuses like 1-2% bonus to racial Ewar mod. like the kestrel getting 2% per level to ECM. Then you can mix it up and the EA could be Vamp and super tank while the real ECM is on the kestrel instead. Classic bait and switch. just as an example.

Certified Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.15 11:33:00 - [31] Decrease the sig, Increase the scan res, and increase the lock range on them. Leave the hp alone. They should rely on their sig and ewar to keep them alive but right now the sig is too high on them to try to sig tank effectively. It also doesn't make sense for them to have a lower scan res than some AFs seeing as they're supposedly carrying powerful electronic systems. I want them badly to be more effective and no, throwing a cloak on them does not solve their problems.
Dray Caldari Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.06.15 11:41:00 - [32] I'm not sure they should ever have been introduced, broken from the start except the Kitsune, which if were honest was still broken just less broken, of course it's easy for me to type this than it is to come up with a workable solution so I'll go with a resist or hp buff, maybe sig reduction, but that's not going to fix them properly. For me the only real solution will never be implemented, removed from game and sp's redistributed. It's just too easy to ignore them for T1 frig or cruiser variants, and there's no logical reason to choose them over these.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.06.15 18:07:00 - [33] Kitsune's pretty close to being fine. It's suffering because rockets are horrible, and it has a bad lock range. Fix rockets, and let the Kitsune lock at the same range as the Griffin, and it's sorted. Or up the p/g so it can use standard launchers without a MAPC. But mostly, it's quite a neat lil' ship, with a clear niche - jamming nearly as well as a BB, but able to run around at 2.5km/sec on MWD for ... well, at least _most_ of a fight.
Pokechan333	Posted - 2010.06.15 18:20:00 - [34] Most of the people have suggested something else, but none of you have listed a reason why not to have the cov ops cloak. It would make them like mini recon ships, like the kitsune would be a mini falcon. That would obviously make them useful again because if they're in trouble than they can just cloak, unlike todays EAS which can't really do anything. Plus decreasing sig radius and increasing EHP wouldn't do much, they would still have the EHP of a frigate and still pop fast. If they increased the EHP up to a cruisers level, than that's just crazy and stupid
Drykor Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.06.15 18:43:00 - [35] Edited by: Drykor on 15/06/2010 18:44:19 Originally by: Gavin Miner uniqueness. simple word, and one they lack. nothing an eas does can't be done by a couple T1 frigates. an a T1 frigate costs at most 200K ISK, an EAS is still what? 20 million? so I can recruit 10 newbies fit them out ships and set them in the Ewar role, maybe spend 2 days teaching them how to DO the job and WAY out perform the single EAS in the role. honostly, there's nothign you can do, EAS are completely useless when a blob of T1 frigs is better. Great argument! So I'll just put 10 noobs in a cruiser, they'll be faster than 1 guy in a battleship, they'll do more dps and have more EHP combined. Battleships suck! Buff Battleships! Or on a more serious note, there are very few ships that can't be replaced by a couple of other cheaper ships. Usually your problem is getting enough people.
TV Evangelist	Posted - 2010.06.15 19:24:00 - [36] They should just remove them noone would care, honestly, I forgot they existed.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.06.15 21:35:00 - [37] Originally by: Pokechan333 Most of the people have suggested something else, but none of you have listed a reason why not to have the cov ops cloak. It would make them like mini recon ships, like the kitsune would be a mini falcon. That would obviously make them useful again because if they're in trouble than they can just cloak, unlike todays EAS which can't really do anything. Plus decreasing sig radius and increasing EHP wouldn't do much, they would still have the EHP of a frigate and still pop fast. If they increased the EHP up to a cruisers level, than that's just crazy and stupid Because covert ops cloaks are the most powerful module in the game, and would instantly turn EAS from 'a bit meh' to 'overpowered' in short order. It wouldn't fix their core problem, either - which is that they're basically in competition with cloaking recons.
Pascal Almaric Perkone	Posted - 2010.06.16 00:25:00 - [38] Originally by: TV Evangelist They should just remove them noone would care, honestly, I forgot they existed. I'd rather they make 'em useful. As a Blackbird pilot who lives and dies on his range tank, i.e. his bookmark collection, I'd love a ship that could pull range quickly on an un-bookmarked battlefield. Give me something that can MWD to the magic 70km, avoid dying on the way, and jam effectively from that range. All hulls: set sig radius to 75% of the T1 ship. Kitsune: same base lock range as a Blackbird, around 90km with good skills. Keres: mostly needs damps to be buffed, more base range and less cap. Sentinel/Hyena: I don't know, not my thing. I think painters need a range buff, which would help the Hyena in passing.
Rawblin Caldari Costolle Military Assistance Corporation	Posted - 2010.06.16 00:59:00 - [39] Originally by: Pokechan333 Most of the people have suggested something else, but none of you have listed a reason why not to have the cov ops cloak. It would make them like mini recon ships, like the kitsune would be a mini falcon. That would obviously make them useful again because if they're in trouble than they can just cloak, unlike todays EAS which can't really do anything. Plus decreasing sig radius and increasing EHP wouldn't do much, they would still have the EHP of a frigate and still pop fast. If they increased the EHP up to a cruisers level, than that's just crazy and stupid That's really not how cloaks work. ;) If an EAF is in trouble, meaning it is locked by something that can obviously plink away at it, you cannot enable the cloak. -------------------- Not in cruelty, Not in wrath, The Reaper came today, An Angel visited, This gray path, And took the cake away.
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.16 01:03:00 - [40] Edited by: 1Ekrid1 on 16/06/2010 01:04:25 you dont put a covops on because it would suffer from MAD. all ships need a reason, and we already have one that uses covops. given its role as a frigate designed for putting down neuts and vamps and ewr on enemy ships, how would a covops help it do this better? that might make it a better solowtfpwn ship but that doesn't do anything for its small gang or fleet usage. meanwhile a covops protects the paper thin ships that only need to pop out once in a while, and not, unlike the EA frigs, contribute a steady stream of ewar. so the idea is absolute unadulterated fail. people should feel bad for supporting it. It doesn't solve the inherent problem/flaw that signature radius of small ships doesn't help them enough in mitigating damage from large ships by causing less of the bullet to hit them. It doesn't solve the problem that they are called primary and owned instantly, making them useless. If anything, it proves that frigs can be relied on do die in a fiery 1 second blaze if ships bother to concentrate fire on them. That proves the whole class is messed up. Now on the other hand, if there was a skill that involved affecting frigs and destroyers by giving them a "dodging enhancement with latitude thrusters" which mechanically reduced their sig by 4% per level, then we'd see EA frigs, destroyers, and all other frigs having a lot more use. The problem is how do we make them more useful while not making them so much more useful on a use/isk ratio basis that it outdoes expensive ships. Has anyone played homeworld? this game in terms of its scale feels pretty much like it. in homeworld, the fighter ships would laterally dodge left and right, up and down, even while standing in place, in order to lower the chance of being hit and surivive longer. that is exactly the kind of imitation via some game mechanic that is needed for frigates, as they are the smallest human controlled ship, in order to survive more. this mechanic doesnt necessarily need them to actually move on screeen, because its all foward movement and would necessitate coding additions, but there needs to be a skill that causes frigtes and destroyers to BEHAVE like that, such as being able to "tank" large guns while sitting still or moving at 0 transverse because this skill mimics a frigate using lateral thrusters to shift side to side to avoid hits. Its hard to imagine the empires would not put on this on their frigates, because that increases chance to survive. When you're small, when you can't afford to be hit, you need to dodge, you need to lessen the possibility of damage. lets not forget that the picture of the gunnery guide on the eve website showed two circles, the radius, the gun resolution, and had a bunch of little dots all over the gun resolution to indicate the randomized area of fire (just like a real gun). This "apparent randomized hitting" breaks down when frigates hit 0 speed and get hit for full damage 100% of the time, therefor proving that the code is intended to mimic a dispersal pattern of shots at an object when frigs move, and breaks down when frigs are still. Just like how missiles broke down once nanotards reached a certain speed in the game 2 1/2 yrs ago. sure its working as intended tho, because its intent is to mimic it with a minimum of coding effort, which leads to coding blind spots.

Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.06.16 02:45:00 - [41] Ewar ship with cloak would work like falcon and other recons do...the heavier tank ship draw the enemy fire at initial engagement then the ewar ship decloak. Not so hard to understand I think.
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.16 02:47:00 - [42] Edited by: 1Ekrid1 on 16/06/2010 02:48:56 its called warping in after the tank ships draw primary, and it doesnt require you spreading your fitting out to some high ISk cost module and needing extra skill to fly it as well. Not so hard to understand, one would think. and there's no difference in how much time is lost by either being cloaked or staying out of the warp in spot until called for.
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.06.16 02:53:00 - [43] Edited by: Widemouth Deepthroat on 16/06/2010 02:52:56 I know how to fly the ship...I'm just wondering how you can say the much more fragile ewar ship shouldn't have a cloak while the tankier force recon does.
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.16 03:25:00 - [44] stop being ******ed. A cloak doesn't matter one whit once you're locked and being shot at. it doesn't increase defense, there's a reason the bigger ship has a bigger tank. its bigger. They already have more resists than T1 and they aren't useful when cloaked. their job requires them to be uncloaked. explain how having a cloak will help them, because you haven't explained it at all yet. Or is it that you know youre wrong?
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.06.16 04:08:00 - [45] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 meanwhile a covops protects the paper thin ships that only need to pop out once in a while, and not, unlike the EA frigs, contribute a steady stream of ewar. this is what I am confused about...how is it any different from falcon which does exactly the same thing in a cruiser hull with a cloak? I don't care if the cloak helps it survive or whatever, I just think it would be cool if newer players weren't forced into a stealth bomber to come along on covert drops.
Pokechan333	Posted - 2010.06.16 05:21:00 - [46] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 stop being ******ed. A cloak doesn't matter one whit once you're locked and being shot at. it doesn't increase defense, there's a reason the bigger ship has a bigger tank. its bigger. They already have more resists than T1 and they aren't useful when cloaked. their job requires them to be uncloaked. explain how having a cloak will help them, because you haven't explained it at all yet. Or is it that you know youre wrong? How does having a cloak make a falcon useful, even though it's almost paper thin? Do falcons survive when being locked and shot at by a bunch of ships? Do arazus? Do rapiers? Do pilgrims? Exactly
Celedris Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2010.06.16 05:27:00 - [47] The hitpoints on them are fine given their resists; you can add an MSE/plate and have better EHP than an equivalently fit inty (i.e. MSE hyena > MSE stiletto). Their big problem, generally, is that their bonuses aren't good enough to bother with aside from the Kitsune, and their secondary ship stats suck. Speed is fine on them, but they could use an agility boost as they currently have the same agility as an AF: maybe boost agility 20%. Kitsune: increase base lock range to 60km, increase base grid to 36, add 5m3 dronebay & bandwith, swap 5%/lvl capacitor bonus for 5%/lvl missile ROF bonus. Boost rockets too! Keres: increase base lock range to 55km, increase base grid to 38, increase warp disruptor bonus to 15%/lvl (42km T2 disruptor, ~16km T2 scram), increase dronebay & bandwith to 10m3, combine both capacitor bonuses together and add a 5%/lvl small hybrid dmg bonus. Boost damps! Sentinel: increase base lock range to 50km, increase base grid to 50, increase dronebay/bandwith to 25, increase vamp/neut range bonus to 80%/lvl (~31km small T2 neuts) Hyena: increase base lock range to 50km, increase base grid to 40, increase web bonus to 40%/lvl (30km T2 webs), drop one high slot for a fifth mid slot (same layout as the Keres), add 10m3 dronebay & bandwith, swap 3%/lvl signature bonus (lol!) for 5%/lvl small projectile ROF bonus. Fixed.
Ahz	Posted - 2010.06.16 05:58:00 - [48] Originally by: Pokechan333 How about give them a covert ops cloak? No. Originally by: Pokechan333 Giving them cov ops cloaks would be great and make them actually useful How are you so sure they aren't useful? They're seeing lots of action in the tournament. Covert ops cloak seems to be the first thing people want to add to a ship that doesn't work the way they want it to work.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2010.06.16 07:07:00 - [49] Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Pokechan333 How about give them a covert ops cloak? No. Originally by: Pokechan333 Giving them cov ops cloaks would be great and make them actually useful How are you so sure they aren't useful? They're seeing lots of action in the tournament. Covert ops cloak seems to be the first thing people want to add to a ship that doesn't work the way they want it to work. I think you'll find that people want covert ops cloaks exclsuively for Black Ops and EAFs basically because they are hilariously bad, and covert cloaks give things utility if not performance. Personally I don't think covert cloaks are the answer... Just thought I'd point out that 'give them cloaks' isn't a universal thing, just for ****ty ewar ships that when they were announced people hoped would be like recons and then drastically failed to live up to that. TBH I think EAFs just need to be ignored. There is basically nothing you can do them that will make them more desirable to fly atm without over powering them. A frigate with a neut bonus was always doomed to failure, since it's too slow to catch anythig that its neuts would actually be effective against. The keres could have been good, but it doesn't get to scram out to enough range, nor have enough speed to make use of it. The hyenah is in essance an interceptor that got rejected at the design stage. The kitsune COULD be ok, but it suffers from falcon syndrome being paper thin, and everyone serious about fighting is so paranoid about ECM that they will die before they actually contribute anything. However, if you boosted them then they'd obsolete inties, especially the keres and hyenah. Long range tackle and 'survivable' would mean they would be the obvious tackling choice, because range always translates to better tbh. The problem with all EAFs is that any of them mixed with a couple of AFs or inties sounds like an awesome team. Then you look at the realities of PvP and suddenly they are just fragile, expencive and you will always serve your gang better by flying something else. Its not even like these are a cheap way to ease into the ewar role. T1 does that just fine. Any time flying one of these is a good idea, flying a recon is a better idea. Sad fact of life.
Max Tux	Posted - 2010.06.16 09:51:00 - [50] Cov-ops cloak is a BAD IDEA with a bit more survivability (EHP), and a bit better agility they will more flyable. i think they could do with moving some slots around, hyena could do with a high changed for a med. kitsune could do with slightly better lock range, keres needs slightly more cap, sentinel needs a little more grid.

Indeterminacy THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.06.16 14:26:00 - [51] Originally by: Pascal Almaric Originally by: TV Evangelist They should just remove them noone would care, honestly, I forgot they existed. I'd rather they make 'em useful. As a Blackbird pilot who lives and dies on his range tank, i.e. his bookmark collection, I'd love a ship that could pull range quickly on an un-bookmarked battlefield. Give me something that can MWD to the magic 70km, avoid dying on the way, and jam effectively from that range. All hulls: set sig radius to 75% of the T1 ship. Kitsune: same base lock range as a Blackbird, around 90km with good skills. Keres: mostly needs damps to be buffed, more base range and less cap. Sentinel/Hyena: I don't know, not my thing. I think painters need a range buff, which would help the Hyena in passing. Ships should remain in game to be sure. There is nothing wrong with the Sentinel IMO. Deadly ship. Kitsune is borken. dunno about the other two.
Gavin Miner	Posted - 2010.06.16 17:13:00 - [52] Originally by: Drykor Edited by: Drykor on 15/06/2010 18:44:19 Originally by: Gavin Miner uniqueness. simple word, and one they lack. nothing an eas does can't be done by a couple T1 frigates. an a T1 frigate costs at most 200K ISK, an EAS is still what? 20 million? so I can recruit 10 newbies fit them out ships and set them in the Ewar role, maybe spend 2 days teaching them how to DO the job and WAY out perform the single EAS in the role. honostly, there's nothign you can do, EAS are completely useless when a blob of T1 frigs is better. Great argument! So I'll just put 10 noobs in a cruiser, they'll be faster than 1 guy in a battleship, they'll do more dps and have more EHP combined. Battleships suck! Buff Battleships! Or on a more serious note, there are very few ships that can't be replaced by a couple of other cheaper ships. Usually your problem is getting enough people. actually I said 'a couple T1 frigates' as in 2. 10 was how many of the most expensive T1 hulls I can buy and pinp out for the cost of 1 T2 EAS. finding 2 newbs to stick in T1 frigs isnt' exactly hard, hell I can dual box a T1 while I fly a real ship anyway, if it dies no loss its less then 1 million ISK, afterall they aren't expected to last past engagement, just tie things up so other ships CAN engage. really the only EAS worth flying now is kitsune, with an ECM bonus. we could 'fix' them by giving them all ECM bonuses and a bunch of mid slots, but I can't see how the web range bonus on a hyena will suddenly become worth risking an extra 19 million ISK on.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.06.17 00:22:00 - [53] Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 17/06/2010 00:22:51 Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 17/06/2010 00:22:13 EAS are "supposed" to be a decentralized approach to ewar. What exactly does that mean? They should bring less e-war to the table but be much more annoying and harder to kill. Give the kitsune a natural 75km lock range (same as the griffin). Swap a mid for another low. (extra SDA) Three jammers - half the falcon or rook's potential- at 150km+ jam range. Reduce the signature radius so that the poor frigate isn't approaching Scimitar territory. The hyena has enough mids for a MWD, point, web, and MSE. It could also throw a plate and DC on and add another web or - god forbid - a TP if CPU is tight. I would argue it has the e-war of a bare bones Huginn. Cut it's signature radius to mid 30s. Give it a MILD version of the interceptor MWD sig penalty reduction. Give it a longer lock range and a 40km web(s). Approach the keres the same way. In short, increase their range. Cut the sig radius. Limit the e-war potential.


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