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Turning the Incursus into a tier 3 frigate

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Caleb Fury Amarr Did I just do that	Posted - 2010.06.20 05:24:00 - [1] As always happens when I have a few beers and am playing Eve, I begin to wonder how cool it would be if the Kestrel and Incursus would be tier 3 frigates instead of their split weapon counterparts, the Merlin and Tristan. Since the Incursus is my favorite ship, I was wondering how cool would it be if gallente pilots had a clear go-to option T-1 frigate wise and not just hear, "Get a rifter or a dramiel." I don't propose anything major tbh. Only to be able to fit something like this perhaps (Ship would get slight CPU increase and a tad more powergrid like current tier 3 frigs get, in addition to another low): [Incursus, Tier 3 wanna be] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Rigs to taste. Tho if you used Ancillary routers, I imagine you could just upgrade to Light Neutrons or use a MAPC to get on largest guns as current Incursus does already if you so choose. So is this really a bad idea? Or just get rid of the tiered system altogether. I could be happy with that. Thanks again everyone!
Khin'charin Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.06.20 06:27:00 - [2] At first I was gonna troll you for thisstatement, but come to think of it... I too would like to see the Kessie and Incursus to be the equivalent to the rifter. It would make the T1 frig lineup much more interesting. -Khin I run L4's in my rifter.
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa Minmatar The Perfect Harvesting Experience	Posted - 2010.06.20 06:30:00 - [3] Incursus and Kestrel both require Racial Frigate III, both are tier 3. Just a thought. (Just like the Rifter, Breacher, Punisher, Inquisitor, Merlin and Tristan) ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2010.06.20 06:38:00 - [4] Originally by: Caleb Fury (Ship would get slight CPU increase and a tad more powergrid like current tier 3 frigs get, in addition to another low): +45 CPU (+41%) is a slight CPU increase now? I think you are not quite familiar just how tight Incursus's fittings are at the moment. -- Gradient forum
omgevenmoarfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.06.20 06:56:00 - [5] Stupid idea, GTFO. If CCP thought it was right, they'd have done it already.
Seraph Castillon Gallente	Posted - 2010.06.20 08:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa Incursus and Kestrel both require Racial Frigate III, both are tier 3. Just a thought. (Just like the Rifter, Breacher, Punisher, Inquisitor, Merlin and Tristan) They are tier 3, but within that tier there's an obvious gradation as well. Rifter/Tristan/Punisher/Merlin all have 10 slots. Their "lesser" variations have 8 or 9. I for one wouldn't mind having the incursus bumped to top of it's class.
Caleb Fury Amarr Did I just do that	Posted - 2010.06.20 12:37:00 - [7] Originally by: omgevenmoarfreemoniez Stupid idea, GTFO. If CCP thought it was right, they'd have done it already. You sound like a bad version of Intigo. Would you like some of my beer? I think it could help quell some of your obvious anger at a simple question. Also your main.....Poastz with it.
Caleb Fury Amarr Did I just do that	Posted - 2010.06.20 12:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Seraph Castillon Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa Incursus and Kestrel both require Racial Frigate III, both are tier 3. Just a thought. (Just like the Rifter, Breacher, Punisher, Inquisitor, Merlin and Tristan) They are tier 3, but within that tier there's an obvious gradation as well. Rifter/Tristan/Punisher/Merlin all have 10 slots. Their "lesser" variations have 8 or 9. I for one wouldn't mind having the incursus bumped to top of it's class. Its just that I thought it would be cool if the Incursus or Kestrel could compete with the Rifter in a clear way. Or just remove split weapons from them. I would love a 4 blaster Merlin. The model is just so sexy.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.06.20 19:33:00 - [9] Not sure why people seem to be so against buffing otherwise terrible ships >>;
CeneUJiti	Posted - 2010.06.20 19:38:00 - [10] Buffing gimped ships might make them no longer be free KMs, and that would be terrible for average "elite solo & small gang PVPer".

Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.06.20 19:52:00 - [11] For an idea of what kind of power level the T3 should be at, look at the tournament prize frigates from last and this year .. T3 should be able to outperform the hull one size up in a straight fight if you ask me (T2 can't do it reliably except in limited scenarios).
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions	Posted - 2010.06.20 20:47:00 - [12] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida For an idea of what kind of power level the T3 should be at, look at the tournament prize frigates from last and this year .. T3 should be able to outperform the hull one size up in a straight fight if you ask me (T2 can't do it reliably except in limited scenarios). Umm. Are you referring to the existing tier 3 frigates, which the rest of the thread is about, or about the theoretical T3 frigates? Methinks the latter.... Personally, I like the idea of making the Incursus and the Merlin (and sure, the Punisher I suppose; I've just never flown an Amarr frig other than the Anathema and so don't feel qualified to comment) on par with the Rifter. It actually gets tiresome to advise a new Caldari/Gallente/Amarr pilot who wants to get into PvP to cross train or be at a disadvantage. However. I'm not yet bored enough to propose changes. Perhaps give it a few more hours and some gin....
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:02:00 - [13] Haven't flown an incursus...but you can get 200+ DPS on one relatively easily. Kestrel is still pretty good with SMLs; the standard close-range fit is just gimped by the terribadness of rockets. They're not as well-rounded as the rifter, but they're not bad either.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:44:00 - [14] Edited by: Zhilia Mann on 20/06/2010 21:44:12 Originally by: Kahega Amielden Haven't flown an incursus...but you can get 200+ DPS on one relatively easily. Enlighten us. I get exactly 200 (without the drone) on this with an empty mid and an empty rig slot due to lack of fitting: [Incursus, dps] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1MN Afterburner II 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I [empty med slot] Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I [empty rig slot] Hobgoblin II x1 I'm unsure how that's "relatively eas[y]". Not to mention it's too slow to apply its DPS and it has the tank of a soaked paper towel. Exactly how does that compete with a Rifter?
Mire Stoude The Undesirables	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:43:00 - [15] Edited by: Mire Stoude on 20/06/2010 23:46:13 Then CCP would make the tristan hull be used with the Enyo and Ishkur and the Incursus hull for the bomber. While thats an upgrade for the bomber, it's a downgrade for the ishkur and enyo. I'm still recovering from the helios change... please don't hurt me anymore. EDIT: I may be completely wrong on the above. I can't remember the different teirs for the frigates and what they apply to. But still...
Reneg Destir	Posted - 2010.06.21 00:29:00 - [16] Edited by: Reneg Destir on 21/06/2010 00:29:40 Originally by: Zhilia Mann Edited by: Zhilia Mann on 20/06/2010 21:44:12 Originally by: Kahega Amielden Haven't flown an incursus...but you can get 200+ DPS on one relatively easily. Enlighten us. I get exactly 200 (without the drone) on this with an empty mid and an empty rig slot due to lack of fitting: [Incursus, dps] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1MN Afterburner II 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I [empty med slot] Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I [empty rig slot] Hobgoblin II x1 I'm unsure how that's "relatively eas[y]". Not to mention it's too slow to apply its DPS and it has the tank of a soaked paper towel. Exactly how does that compete with a Rifter? Perhaps your the fit wouldnt be so slow to apply dps if you made use of the third rig slot. as for awesome dps incurus with my implants and heat and skills i get 193dps at v its 218. [Incursus, PVP X2Dmg rigs] Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I [empty rig slot] Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Hobgoblin II x1 But in reality this is where its at. 147dps with null, nice range, fast. [Incursus, MINI Stardust] Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Warrior II x1 meh
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Reneg Destir Originally by: Kahega Amielden Haven't flown an incursus...but you can get 200+ DPS on one relatively easily. Enlighten us. I get exactly 200 (without the drone) on this with an empty mid and an empty rig slot due to lack of fitting: [Incursus, dps] {insert a fit no one should ever use here} I'm unsure how that's "relatively eas[y]". Not to mention it's too slow to apply its DPS and it has the tank of a soaked paper towel. Exactly how does that compete with a Rifter? Originally by: Reneg Destir Perhaps your the fit wouldnt be so slow to apply dps if you made use of the third rig slot. as for awesome dps incurus with my implants and heat and skills i get 193dps at v its 218. Obviously, yes. It still isn't fast, though, and the optimal + falloff is going to be suktastical no matter what you do. Originally by: Reneg Destir [Incursus, PVP X2Dmg rigs] Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I [empty rig slot] Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Hobgoblin II x1 But in reality this is where its at. 147dps with null, nice range, fast. [Incursus, MINI Stardust] Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Warrior II x1 meh Both much better fits than what I posted. Also proof of the point that you cannot, in fact, get 200+ DPS on an Incursus "relatively easily". But now we're pretty far afield. The idea stands: is there a way to make at least one frigate from each race truly competitive with the Rifter? Or is it just easier to keep telling every new pilot to cross train for a bit?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.06.21 03:20:00 - [18] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 21/06/2010 03:24:36 With one damage mod and CN AM you will get 205 overheated, 180 non. That's a lot. The incursus is no slower than the rifter. Compared to the rifter, the incursus sacrifices a good tank for facemelting damage. Would a third lowslot and enough fitting to do something with it as suggested in the OP unbalance it? No, and I wouldn't really be opposed to such a change...But it's still a good ship The rifter is overrated.
Caleb Fury Amarr Did I just do that	Posted - 2010.06.21 12:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 21/06/2010 03:24:36 With one damage mod and CN AM you will get 205 overheated, 180 non. That's a lot. The incursus is no slower than the rifter. Compared to the rifter, the incursus sacrifices a good tank for facemelting damage. Would a third lowslot and enough fitting to do something with it as suggested in the OP unbalance it? No, and I wouldn't really be opposed to such a change...But it's still a good ship The rifter is overrated. So then no one would be opposed to the change? If it won't be imbalanced..... So how about the Merlin then? I know I mentioned The kessie before, but I love the Merlin model and if it had 4 turret hardpoints then that would be sweet indeed. It's still restricted with only two low slots and it still gets an optimal bonus and not a damage bonus, so I don't know if it would be over the top. People would likely put autocannons on it all the same however as is occasionally done at the moment. It's still no Dramiel, so couldn't be too bad for those us us to like to fly T1.
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:58:00 - [20] Edited by: 1Ekrid1 on 21/06/2010 20:03:49 Edited by: 1Ekrid1 on 21/06/2010 20:02:07 Edited by: 1Ekrid1 on 21/06/2010 20:00:46 Originally by: Caleb Fury Originally by: Seraph Castillon Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa Incursus and Kestrel both require Racial Frigate III, both are tier 3. Just a thought. (Just like the Rifter, Breacher, Punisher, Inquisitor, Merlin and Tristan) They are tier 3, but within that tier there's an obvious gradation as well. Rifter/Tristan/Punisher/Merlin all have 10 slots. Their "lesser" variations have 8 or 9. I for one wouldn't mind having the incursus bumped to top of it's class. Its just that I thought it would be cool if the Incursus or Kestrel could compete with the Rifter in a clear way. Or just remove split weapons from them. I would love a 4 blaster Merlin. The model is just so sexy. TBH the split weapon systems cause lower theoretical DPS, but increase versatility, which can increase actual DPS. IMO all tier 3 frigates should have the capability of multi weapon system. 4 launcher 2 turret = kestrel. of course, then you cant add utility highslots. I either wish there were more Tier 3 frigs with utility highslots, via a PG/CPU fitting cap, or hardpoint cap, or more multiweapon systems for frigs. Im not sure how to wor both out without people getting fits of 5-6 weapons by extremely pimping the PG of their ships. Originally by: Zhilia Mann Originally by: Hirana Yoshida For an idea of what kind of power level the T3 should be at, look at the tournament prize frigates from last and this year .. T3 should be able to outperform the hull one size up in a straight fight if you ask me (T2 can't do it reliably except in limited scenarios). Umm. Are you referring to the existing tier 3 frigates, which the rest of the thread is about, or about the theoretical T3 frigates? Methinks the latter.... Personally, I like the idea of making the Incursus and the Merlin (and sure, the Punisher I suppose; I've just never flown an Amarr frig other than the Anathema and so don't feel qualified to comment) on par with the Rifter. It actually gets tiresome to advise a new Caldari/Gallente/Amarr pilot who wants to get into PvP to cross train or be at a disadvantage. However. I'm not yet bored enough to propose changes. Perhaps give it a few more hours and some gin.... punisher has limited versatility, making it hard to solo pvp with, and if you fit it for a particular way, you'll lose the ability to do anything else. meanwhile, the rifter can do everything, so can gain an advantage in 80% fight it finds (compared to the punisher which gets the advantage from its fit in only 20% of the fights, regardless of its high theoretical DPS and believed high tank but really average tank, given speed factors as well), unless the pilot sucks. Originally by: Zhilia Mann Originally by: Hirana Yoshida For an idea of what kind of power level the T3 should be at, look at the tournament prize frigates from last and this year .. T3 should be able to outperform the hull one size up in a straight fight if you ask me (T2 can't do it reliably except in limited scenarios). Umm. Are you referring to the existing tier 3 frigates, which the rest of the thread is about, or about the theoretical T3 frigates? Methinks the latter.... Personally, I like the idea of making the Incursus and the Merlin (and sure, the Punisher I suppose; I've just never flown an Amarr frig other than the Anathema and so don't feel qualified to comment) on par with the Rifter. It actually gets tiresome to advise a new Caldari/Gallente/Amarr pilot who wants to get into PvP to cross train or be at a disadvantage. However. I'm not yet bored enough to propose changes. Perhaps give it a few more hours and some gin.... dual webs take you from 50% damage with rockets to 84% damage. And you get full damage on a cruiser that doesnt have AB. I have what is arguable a poor fit for a kessie with 4 rocket launchers, and it still puts out 160 damage every 2.56s There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess.

1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:08:00 - [21] the rifter gets split weapon system, high base speed, small sig radius (harder to hit, which equals tank), highly evenly split slot system (meaning it can pack a speed mod, and a scram, and a web, and damage mods in lows, or armor tank mods in lows, or shield mods in highs and damage mods in lows) and on and on. They can fit for anything, whereas ships with 4 mids and 2 lows, or 4 lows and 2 mids, cant do nearly as much to fit for solo pvp or small gang ganks. its all in the slotting. There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:44:00 - [22] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 They can fit for anything, whereas ships with 4 mids and 2 lows, or 4 lows and 2 mids, cant do nearly as much to fit for solo pvp or small gang ganks. its all in the slotting. This is unfortunately true. And implies that for every race to have a Rifter-competitive frig, every race would have to have a 4/3/3 frigate with three primary weapon slots and a secondary weapon slot and that's just boring. And they'd all have to be relatively fast. And agile. And have a damage bonus plus another racially-appropriate bonus. So: 4/3/3 Punisher. Three turrets, one utility or missile slot. Improve fittings. Swap bonuses to small laser damage and... cap use? 4/3/3 Kestrel. Three launchers, one turret. Make damn sure you can fit three standards and a tank. Swap bonuses to kinetic missile damage and... shield resists per level? Something like that. OR.... 4/3/3 Merlin. Three turrets, one launcher. Fittings probably don't need much adjusting. For flavor and variation I guess you have to keep the bonuses, which still leaves the ship kinda meh. Maybe increase the range bonus and the targeting range a bit and trade out the resist bonus with a scram range bonus? Well, no, that would be stupid, but it would be a nice ship then.... 4/3/3 Tristan/Incursus; don't care which but I'd love to give the Tristan hull some love. Three turrets, one launcher. Maybe spring for a double damage bonus for a true Leroy frig? Probably needs a slight fitting adjustment whichever hull is used. And frankly, I'd still fly a Rifter after all of that. Projectiles on frigates are just awesome. But at least it would make things a bit more competitive.
Joe Starbreaker M. Corp	Posted - 2010.06.21 21:10:00 - [23] I don't get the complaint. The Kestrel and Incursus are already tier 3 frigates. Both are perfectly adequate tacklers and L1 mission ships, which is pretty much their intended role. Could they duel a Rifter and win? Maybe, maybe not (I'd say Kestrel definitely, Incursus less likely) but that's hardly the only criterion by which to evaluate them. ...
Rouge Drone	Posted - 2010.06.21 23:24:00 - [24] The tristan is on par with the rifter despite the split weapon system. It is a very respectable frigate.


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