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so we was in Iceland

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FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.26 22:38:00 - [31] Are we back at the standard Ank-ploy, those who point out the facts about her that are unflattering are trolls? I think most of us have had enough of that game. In any case, transparency rather obviously means more than the simple minutes that are put out for meetings. This is both obvious and very, very basic. There is more that goes on in an organization than what is recorded by a secretary. Don't call the facts "spin". An organization that conducts itself with honesty and openness doesn't seek to hide the fact that one of its members is unable to properly do their job simply because it's not on the record. And you may hold CCP in such low regard that you think they're morons who live by the fallacies of composition and division, but if they've got half a brain in their heads they'll judge the summit by what was actually accomplished and not by the misbehavior of one (and only one) member. The entire reason that the CSM was formed in the first place was that, when faced with the misbehavior of one of its members, instead of prompt and transparent action, CCP tried to prevent a "united front" and lost almost all credibility for years. The lesson to be learned is not that CCP should've just backed T20 even more or that Kugu really was the badguy for pointing out the facts, but that secrecy and bull**** 'solidarity' is self-defeating when obvious mistakes have been made. The lesson is not, "well, you just need to be even more dedicated to closing ranks and being even more tight-lipped when obvious problems come up." The story yesterday was "one lone CSM member repeatedly behaving badly." The story today is "some elements of the CSM want to keep the playerbase in the dark about misbehavior going on in the CSM so they can preserve their image rather than achieving transparency when dealing with the playerbase." This is not an improvement.
Vittorian	Posted - 2010.06.26 22:40:00 - [32] You guys really are doing a good job of making this whole circus look like a joke. How the **** are you all unable to shut an idiot like ank down? What is it actually you guys are trying to achieve?
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.26 22:48:00 - [33] Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 26/06/2010 22:50:46 Obvious troll alt is obviously trolling. CCP is not going to scrap all the CSM's proposals and input because Ank can't behave like a grownup, much less because someone else related the 100% true and accurate facts. And you know it. Stop trolling. This "Ayieeeee, now the CSM is undone! Not because a member is behaving badly, but because other people commented on it!!!" simply does not fly. You're not fooling anybody. And seriously, enough of your trolling. Enough of your trolling. Enough. That's it. No more of this "The facts are trolling! Damn the facts, damn them!!!" No more calling relating facts "smears" or a "vendette". Yes yes, reality has a clear anti-Ank bias, damn reality right to hell! This is the same exact trolling we've seen since the campaign, and it's idiotic. You're like a pack of Scientologists. You can't face the facts, so when they're pointed out you just go into rabid attack dog mode and angrily gum the ankles of those pointing out the facts. No defense, always attack. If someone points out that Ank is unbalanced and cannot behave like an adult? Why... then they must not be behaving like adults! We all know you don't really believe it, and you're not fooling anybody. At all.
iP0D	Posted - 2010.06.26 23:35:00 - [34] Finny, stop trolling man. If you like the game, and want it to perform, you'll give a proper process like a CSM that has a job to do, room to do its job. If you don't, by all means continue as current. No, now don't run off texting and trying to think of more things to throw in the **tail. There's no room for the drunk tail, it's business now. When the next elections come, we can go ape**, sure. Right now, like one of the other posts mentioned if you want CSM to work, they have to take it on professionally. Playing emo politics doesn't match with that.
Jan Forjeu	Posted - 2010.06.27 00:13:00 - [35] Originally by: iP0D Finny, stop trolling man. If you like the game, and want it to perform, you'll give a proper process like a CSM that has a job to do, room to do its job. If you don't, by all means continue as current. No, now don't run off texting and trying to think of more things to throw in the **tail. There's no room for the drunk tail, it's business now. When the next elections come, we can go ape**, sure. Right now, like one of the other posts mentioned if you want CSM to work, they have to take it on professionally. Playing emo politics doesn't match with that. It's idiots like this that pollute the discussion. I'll spell it out for all of you once and for all: ANKH IS NOT HELPING AT ALL AND EVERYBODY WHO SUPPORTS HER IS SADDER THAN SHE IS.
Dograzor The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.06.27 00:26:00 - [36] Do you CSM guys have any more.. positive stuff to talk about/mention/show? This tread was about how awesome it all was in iceland, and turned into a mudthrowing debate about CSM delegates. I want nice CSM group pictures of you all in Iceland, put a name to the faces, get to hear some fun behind the scenes things (positive things please), read some fun anecdotes, you guys shaking hands with CCP, whatever, not this utter pile of smacktalking crap & trolling. You guys do realize that you are representatives of the EVE community, and that I expect you to act as such? If somebody has an outburst during a debate, I would expect that the response to it should be professionally, & I don't see it necessary for it to be published. So dear mr. Sokratesz, I implore you, give it a new start, post some fun pictures, some other updates on what you did, how everything was like, give us the followup, & make it worth reading :) Thank you :) - "We don't gank, we just apply force in a disproportionate manner during an uneven tactical combat situation to maximize revenue and increase shareholder value"
Squat Hardpeck State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.06.27 00:27:00 - [37] Originally by: Mynxee Great job guys. Way to create another ***storm about an essentially inconsequential event that totally derails any attempt to demonstrate that we can conduct ourselves even a little pro on the CSM. WTF are you trying to do, sabotage the fragile threads of credibility that we are trying to establish for CSM? I'm pretty disappointed that you felt it was necessary to spin this kind of crap. Seriously...if I* tossed a spoon at Meissa, would there be a thread and and a crusade against me? There's no reason to do this and no good that can come of it. You can spin it any way you want to justify it, but seriously, pull your **ing heads out of your asses for once and try to consider ALL the implications of juvenile stunts like this. Its one thing to joke around about Ankh or * about her to someone face to face if you don't like her, but this kind of public witch hunt is the worst kind of pandering to the rabid trolls in these and other forums where your superfluous "information sharing" has been posted. And yeah thanks a ing lot for the unpleasant situation you have put me in, too. I'm not going to engage in any further discussion here about this. You can talk with me on MSN about if you want to. Also I have advised Ankh not to respond here, because after all, what the good would it do? Jesus **ing christ. So much for being professional.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.27 00:32:00 - [38] Finn: you're being a bit too optimistic, I'd say. Sure, you distinguish between Ankh and the others, but do you really think the average Eve player who doesn't pay close attention to the CSM will remember the difference? The story they'll remember is the CSM throwing spoons, and they'll completely forget about the effectiveness of the meetings, the actual issues they brought forward, and all the other good stuff. That's not to say that we should keep everything under wraps - or that it'd be possible even if you wanted to - but you have to remember how other people will see this stuff, and not just how you see it. Also, I think you'd get a lot more people to take you opinions seriously if you stopped acting like a gargantuan prick towards everyone who disagrees with you. Mynx: Conversely, I think you're going too far the other way. Yeah, it'll play badly. Yeah, people will get bad impressions of the CSM. But seriously, why are you blaming Meissa for this? It was reported to the world by an anonymous alt - perhaps you know who the main is, but I sure don't - and from there, we could hardly fail to get further information trickling out as people did their assorted WTFing. So unless you track down their main, responsibility for this rests solely on the shoulders of the person who actually did the action in question. I get that you're **ed, but communications discipline is near-impossible in real governments, never mind ones composed of nine nerds volunteering to debate internet spaceships. You're trying to close the barn door after the horse(mule?) has escaped. Besides, while what the players think about the CSM matters, what CCP thinks matters more. I don't think CCP needs to be told what happened on the forums. Ultimately, this whole situation is total horse**. Yes, when you put three people in a room, you get politics. That's human nature. But it doesn't have to be the politics of a second-grade schoolyard. I wasn't in Iceland, I don't know who acted professionally and who made an ass of themselves. I'd really like to think the count is 9 and 0, but we all know that wasn't the case the whole time. The best way to prevent stuff like this from damaging the CSM's reputation is to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place. Those of you who acted in a sub-par fashion - and I'm sure you know who you are - knock it the hell off.
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.06.27 00:58:00 - [39] Edited by: TeaDaze on 27/06/2010 00:59:17 Originally by: Dograzor Do you CSM guys have any more.. positive stuff to talk about/mention/show? Just to clarify, the meeting minutes should be out in the next week at which time we can talk in more detail about what was discussed. This is because when CCP staff are involved in a CSM meeting the minutes have to be agreed by both CSM and CCP. Some stuff will be under NDA (don tinfoil hats). Spoongate was a few minutes during the second to last session out of around 26 hours of meetings. People were tired and the issue under discussion was emotive. I only confirmed the incident happened because Delilah Wild has some kind of Anti-Sok sentiment and called him a liar I can honestly say the majority of the meetings ended with constructive action points. A couple of meetings did not, but in those cases it was not due to CSM members. We hope some of these action points will lead to player requested changes in Eve, but that remains to be seen. An example of the CSM working together (that I can talk about before the minutes are published). DV and I were in Iceland early and felt that the Factional Warfare presentation that Ank had drafted needed some tweaking. It did have all the relevant issues listed but by her admission hadn't yet been polished. We spent about 4 hours on layout changes, drawing diagrams and rewording to ensure it best supported the proposal. When Ank arrived in Iceland, DV and her spent another 3 hours on it which resulted in a high quality presentation which all three of us were happy with. The CSM are probably more united on most topics than CCP would like I spoke to Ank earlier today and confirmed that if I disagree with a proposal of hers that it isn't a personal attack. Going forward I am hopeful that things will settle down on all sides - much to the dismay of the trolls wishing to see dramaz. TeaDaze.net Blog \| CSM Database
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.27 01:24:00 - [40] Quote: acting like a gargantuan prick towards everyone who disagrees with you. Indeed, the very model of decorum. Quote: If you like the game, and want it to perform, you'll give a proper process like a CSM that has a job to do, room to do its job. If you don't, by all means continue as current. Ahhh, the standard song and dance. If someone honestly and logically doesn't agree with you, they must be trolling! Of course, you and I both know that giving a body "room to do its job" has nothing, at all, to do with pointing out when members of that body aren't doing their jobs properly. In fact, the ability to point out when folks aren't working properly within the group is essential to maintaining transparency and accountability.

Don Pellegrino Helljumpers	Posted - 2010.06.27 01:51:00 - [41] I find it hilarious that it is impossible to report negative facts about Ankh in an objective manner (without expressing an opinion) without being labeled as an anti-ankh crusader. We, players, need to know about it and Sokratesz just said that it happened, which is fine, no need to go all emo about it.
Miyamoto Isoruku Caldari Original Sin.	Posted - 2010.06.27 01:53:00 - [42] Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Quote: If you like the game, and want it to perform, you'll give a proper process like a CSM that has a job to do, room to do its job. If you don't, by all means continue as current. Ahhh, the standard song and dance. If someone honestly and logically doesn't agree with you, they must be trolling! Of course, you and I both know that giving a body "room to do its job" has nothing, at all, to do with pointing out when members of that body aren't doing their jobs properly. In fact, the ability to point out when folks aren't working properly within the group is essential to maintaining transparency and accountability. My dear Finn, if I didn't know better I would say it sounded like someone had just accused you of committing journalism. I hear that's a capital offense in some parts.
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.06.27 02:38:00 - [43] Drama in the CSM? Well I never...
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.27 02:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Marlona Sky Drama in the CSM? Well I never... Yes, this has never happened before.
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.27 03:50:00 - [45] Quote: someone had just accused you of committing journalism. Well, you know what they say... if people would just stop talking about what elected officials do when they're not making public statements, they'd have a much easier time crafting a public image.
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.06.27 11:34:00 - [46] I dont think this does anything to detract from my opinion of the CSM as a functional and useful entity as a whole. It does cement my opinion that Ankh is mentally unstable. I do not feel melting down on the other CSM members by mynxee is warranted, even if she feels this makes -her- job harder (and it does). Mynxee: you are not responsible for how others in the CSM behave, you are not responsible for threads about ankhs behaviour either. Do not draw these things -to- yourself, there is no need. I firmly believe that CSM is a useful project, and with people like mynxee on board even the completely flaked out behaviour of one delegate will not detract from it's utility. Just use ankh's latent psychosis and drama as free publicity for a great initiative instead and call it a day :)
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.06.27 11:38:00 - [47] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Marlona Sky Drama in the CSM? Well I never... Yes, this has never happened before. That thread serves a useful purpose in reminding us that although Ankh has her flaws, at least she's not Jade. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.27 11:48:00 - [48] Edited by: Sokratesz on 27/06/2010 11:54:20 I posted a wall of text report, one phrase gets highlighted and everybody denounces the entirety of the CSM for it. (And they accuse me of being obsessed with her?) The summit was, in my book, very productive and I enjoyed it greatly. There were many fruitful discussions and brainstorms, the only reason I didn't mention the content of that is the NDA, and as promised you will receive a lot more info and clarification after the minutes have beep published. This incident says nothing about our 'professional attitudes' or 'the success/failure of the CSM'. It was just an incident, get over it, and wait until the content of what was discussed is released. á We was in Iceland
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2010.06.27 11:57:00 - [49] Much ado about nothing tbh, that Ank is somewhat bonkers is hardly news. So move a long, nothing here to see. For a capable CSM this shouldn't be more than a bump in the road.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.27 11:59:00 - [50] Originally by: Don Pellegrino I find it hilarious that it is impossible to report negative facts about Ankh in an objective manner (without expressing an opinion) without being labeled as an anti-ankh crusader. We, players, need to know about it and Sokratesz just said that it happened, which is fine, no need to go all emo about it. Originally by: FinnAgain Zero And seriously, enough of your trolling. Enough of your trolling. Enough. That's it. No more of this "The facts are trolling! Damn the facts, damn them!!!" No more calling relating facts "smears" or a "vendetta". Yes yes, reality has a clear anti-Ank bias, damn reality right to hell! This is the same exact trolling we've seen since the campaign, and it's idiotic. You're like a pack of Scientologists. You can't face the facts, so when they're pointed out you just go into rabid attack dog mode and angrily gum the ankles of those pointing out the facts. No defense, always attack. If someone points out that Ank is unbalanced and cannot behave like an adult? Why... then they must not be behaving like adults! We all know you don't really believe it, and you're not fooling anybody. At all. Quoting this because it neatly summarizes my thoughts on the matter. á We was in Iceland

Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.27 12:01:00 - [51] Originally by: Aineko Macx Much ado about nothing tbh, that Ank is somewhat bonkers is hardly news. So move a long, nothing here to see. For a capable CSM this shouldn't be more than a bump in the road. And it hasn't been anything else, but it is being greatly exaggerated. See above, also. á We was in Iceland
Deki 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.06.27 12:28:00 - [52] Tbh I blame Sok for posting this **** on SHC and German forums in pursuit of attracting more voters. Personally I think I am the one of the rare CSM 2,3,5 delegates who dont particularly dislike Eva, but I am amazed with the need of certain people (even delegates), now and before elections, to troll and smack her and giving her even more attentions "slash" voters. Just for the record, every CSM lineup where she was on, had at least one worse delegate then she is. Vuk Lau P.S. Free Vuk Lau
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.27 12:34:00 - [53] Originally by: Deki Tbh I blame Sok for posting this **** on SHC and German forums in pursuit of attracting more voters. Personally I think I am the one of the rare CSM 2,3,5 delegates who dont particularly dislike Eva, but I am amazed with the need of certain people (even delegates), now and before elections, to troll and smack her and giving her even more attentions "slash" voters. Just for the record, every CSM lineup where she was on, had at least one worse delegate then she is. Vuk Lau P.S. Free Vuk Lau Sophia Lau Best Lau! á We was in Iceland
Larkonis Trassler Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.06.27 15:00:00 - [54] It appears that Ankh is completely unable to act in a dignified, professional and sane manner. She is clearly a disruptive influence on the group dynamic and appears to be fixated on her own narrow agenda. Having read the minutes from previous meetings and with this new revelation I wonder how long it will be before she has a complete hormone induced meltdown. In the interests of the player base, the CSM as a whole and most importantly herself I think Ankh has no option but to resign.
Dodgy Past Amarr Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.06.27 15:01:00 - [55] Edited by: Dodgy Past on 27/06/2010 15:04:01 Ankh could figure that given the composition of the CSM it does give an idea of the way the players that can be bothered to get involved in the management of the game feel. She could try to work as a member of the team to try to make the best of the situation, or she can demonstrate why she is completely unfit to handle the responsibilities that have been placed on her. The interesting thing is that while claiming that others are sociopaths for fighting in a video game that focuses on conflict, if you consider her inability to respect other human beings out of game if they fail to share her exact view points then one starts to have serious concerns about her. Mynxee, I'd just say you have a hideous job, but bear in mind that if all of the people in the CSM are doing their best to work together yet one is incapable of behaving within civilised norms it isn't something should be swept under the carpet. Otherwise it just ends up continuing the cloak of secrecy that CCP enforces through NDAs and means we can't actually judge whether the CSM is worth anyone's time and attention. We already have to 'trust' the CSM on enough things so when you start choosing what we 'deserve' to know on the basis protecting the self importance of the CSM that trust will be rapidly pushed to breaking point. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards.
Kiko Tojima Amarr Daughters of Hada	Posted - 2010.06.27 15:12:00 - [56] Spoongate just showed that Ankh is an ardent PvPer after all She just don't know it yet...
Tudum Zagorac Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.06.27 16:01:00 - [57] Originally by: Deki Tbh I blame Sok for posting this **** on SHC and German forums in pursuit of attracting more voters. Personally I think I am the one of the rare CSM 2,3,5 delegates who dont particularly dislike Eva, but I am amazed with the need of certain people (even delegates), now and before elections, to troll and smack her and giving her even more attentions "slash" voters. Just for the record, every CSM lineup where she was on, had at least one worse delegate then she is. Vuk Lau P.S. Free Vuk Lau Koji si ti jebeni licemjer.PrestraÜno.Lupila ti ova igra u glavu Vučiću.Prestani dok ne pukneÜ skroz.
The Crushah Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.06.27 16:42:00 - [58] Heres the way I see it: Miners, industrialists, anti-griefers, etc. are certainly entitled to representation on the CSM. The problem is you pick a completely inflexible and irrational individual to represent your interests. I wouldnt expect to receive many concessions if I were you. Why do I feel like im talking about american politics here...
Shigsy Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.06.27 17:03:00 - [59] _________________________________
Pallidum Treponema Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.06.27 17:16:00 - [60] Shigs wins thread. --



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