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Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.25 22:46:00 - [1] Edited by: Sokratesz on 25/06/2010 22:51:44 These have been posted by me elsewhere in the past few days and have been copied without editing - please accept my apologies for the lack of punctuation and coherence. A series of more in-depth and content-based update will follow as soon as the minutes are published. Quote: day 1 (tue)..arrived at 17:00, got picked up at the airport and driven to hotel together with vuk lau and ankh. dropped stuff at room and met up in lobby with the other members, some of which have been here for a few days already. had dinner at cheap cozy restaurant and introduced the new first-time members (mynxee & robert) to the relavant ccp staff. ended up having a few beers with ccp navigator and claw, talking about the game in general and about the status of ccp and the csm. sitting in hotel lobby now at midnight (2am home time) and its still fully light outside, a very strange experience. first experiences: vuk: cuddly big serb, cool guy. mynxee: very nice and cheerful. ankh: quiet. korvin: was exhausted from trip and went to bed early. teadaze: cool and polite as ever. meissa: equipped with a slight trace of french. dierdra: not spoken much. trebor: brought cool present for everyone, full of stories, nice guy Quote: day 2 (wed) breakfast is pretty awesome at the hotel thank god, but theres this perpetual state of daylight here now so its really strange walking about early morning or late at night. my biorythm is **ed pretty much, its 23:30 now but it feels more like 4 pm. we spent the entire morning listening to talks by ccp personnel about tyrannis and new features, providing some decent feedback along the way but listening mostly. later on, eyjo (the economist) first explained how the PI up could happen and then how they were going to fix it. we pressed our points about iterating over old features and improving them rather than introducing new ones all the time and they took it fairly well. lastly we had a video chat with the pve content team in atlanta and this is where ankh went full **** while everyone else facepalmed (she almost got into a fight with meissa), so i eventually decided to break it up gently by interrupting her and asking the guys on the other end some specific questions and making a few suggestions of my own to which they responded enthusiastically, thus breaking the tension a little. ankh really is impossible to work with for any of us, she does not communicate, does not compromise, she just pursues her little agenda annoying and insulting everyone of us and the ccp personnel in several ways while at it the weather was great so after the last meeting we just sat outside in the sun drinking beer and chatting about the day, later had dinner at a way too fancy restaurant where a ccp IT lady, about 40 years old i'd estimate, explained to me, dierdra and korvin the finer details of running a massive cluster like tq and the way it works and what they are doing to track down and fix lag. i mentioned to her the request for more transparency and more updates on the matter and she agreed that that might be a good thing, and that my suggestion of using organised player efforts on tq to recreate laggy situations like with roaming gangs or larger organised fights (like the huge one against provi) would be able to help them. i of course offered assistance so i hope we can expect a blog from her or one of the other people in her department this summer and maybe receive some requests for helping them test stuff on sisi and or tq. all in all, lots of talking by ccp today, not so much by us, but im still quite satisfied. lots of pics were taken by some of us and ccp, you can probably find them on facebook or in a devblog or w/e later á We was in Iceland
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.25 22:49:00 - [2] Quote: day 3 (thurs) started 930 again with a review of evegate and all related stuff + prospects for the future, followed by more tyrannis bashing and a thorough session with the planetary interaction team that yielded a lot of great ideas. we got a sneak peak into incarna (wis) and also contributed some ideas here. after that we buckled up fora few hours of lag and 0.0 discussion, which ended with me being very happy, i really hope they can tell you in the minutes. there was a lot more talking and discussing going on today and many devs were taking notes which like last time was a very satisfying sight. we ate lasagna at ccp's and then finished with a brainstorm session about the csm itself and how we can improve on it in the future. so lots of nda stuff today but i was very excited, really unfortunate that i cant tell you more ;p Quote: day 4 (fri) we discussed lowsec for 2 hours and alot of interesting ideas emerged and we tried our very best to press the importance of it, some promises were made but i remain sceptical. ankh had her say on factional warfare which was a bit boring but pretty decent otherwise. UI was dealt with but it didnt feel really satisfying - no promises, few concrete examples, just a little bit of ¦work in progress¦. next up were roles and grantable roles and we stressed that it affects so many people that its really worth doing as soon as possible - but again, no promises, and by this point i was getting a little frustrated, especially in comparison with yesterday. we spoke with nozh and he actually isnt insane, he made a **ton of notes about everything we mentioned on game balance and we should be in close comms with him in the future about it. (i really liked this session) lastly we went over the csm proposals which resulted in some welp and some ** moments, and the planning for the next six months. many people have asked for more information on the actual content of all the sessions, but im afraid we can onlydo this after the minutes have been published, which will be when we know what is and isnt public. should be around next weekend or something. oh also ankh at some point became frustrated and threw a spoon at meissa in be4 shitstorm á We was in Iceland
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.06.26 01:40:00 - [3] She really throw something at someone?? Or are you just trying to be funny?
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.26 04:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Marlona Sky She really throw something at someone?? Or are you just trying to be funny? More 'neutral' council members will be able to verify that I am being very, very mild regarding her. So no, I am not making things up, in fact I have omitted a lot of stuff that might be funny but wouldn't help us in any way. á We was in Iceland
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.26 05:20:00 - [5] Oh, it was just a spoon? And here I had in my mind that she was throwing the pointy cutlery. Probably better this way, but certainly less entertaining.
Miyamoto Isoruku Caldari Original Sin.	Posted - 2010.06.26 05:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Sokratesz oh also ankh at some point became frustrated and threw a spoon at meissa There is no spoon. Also, to everyone who voted for Ankh: told you so. :smug:
Black Dranzer	Posted - 2010.06.26 06:22:00 - [7] Originally by: Sokratesz oh also ankh at some point became frustrated and threw a spoon at meissa Now, when you say she threw a spoon, do you mean she playfully lobbed it in humorous annoyance, or she out and out hurled it like she was trying to knock somebody out?
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.26 13:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Black Dranzer Originally by: Sokratesz oh also ankh at some point became frustrated and threw a spoon at meissa Now, when you say she threw a spoon, do you mean she playfully lobbed it in humorous annoyance, or she out and out hurled it like she was trying to knock somebody out? It's up to her to justify her behavior, but I daresay it wasn't 'playful'. á We was in Iceland
Delilah Wild	Posted - 2010.06.26 14:20:00 - [9] Edited by: Delilah Wild on 26/06/2010 14:20:55 If Ank threw something at someone in a public meeting out of anger, I'll be the first to call for her to step down. If this does turn out to be true, then I'll also call for Sokratesz to resign. His continued pursuit of a personal vendetta while on the CSM is immature, unprofessional, distracting, and disturbing. If a real problem like this arose, then it should be dealt with in a professional manner. Spreading rumours is not acceptable behaviour. Delilah friendsofeve.wordpress.com
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.26 14:44:00 - [10] Edited by: Sokratesz on 26/06/2010 14:44:45 Originally by: Delilah Wild If Ank threw something at someone in a public meeting out of anger, I'll be the first to call for her to step down. If this does turn out to be true, then I'll also call for Sokratesz to resign. His continued pursuit of a personal vendetta while on the CSM is immature, unprofessional, distracting, and disturbing. If a real problem like this arose, then it should be dealt with in a professional manner. Spreading rumours is not acceptable behaviour. Delilah friendsofeve.wordpress.com Lol. Personal vendetta? I liked her a lot more than I had expected and I merely reported on what happened. Stop seeing things that aren't there. á We was in Iceland
Delilah Wild	Posted - 2010.06.26 14:55:00 - [11] Back-walking already, Sokratesz? 'Liked her alot more'? 'Merely reporting'. That's quite a change in both attitude and language. Good to see. Delilah friendsofeve.wordpress.com
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.26 15:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Delilah Wild Back-walking already, Sokratesz? 'Liked her alot more'? 'Merely reporting'. That's quite a change in both attitude and language. Good to see. Delilah Kindly walk away and perish in an aggressive oxidizing reaction. (in game) Basically, she shut up on most of the topics she knows nothing about, and her fw presentation was pretty decent. á We was in Iceland
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.06.26 17:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Delilah Wild If Ank threw something at someone in a public meeting out of anger, I'll be the first to call for her to step down. Yes Ank threw a spoon. No it did not appear to be done playfully, in fact she seemed rather irritated so I would go as far as to say she was annoyed or even angry. For context there was a side discussion going on about the topic being presented but there was absolutely no call for a spoon to be thrown when a polite comment would have sufficed. Originally by: Delilah Wild If this does turn out to be true, then I'll also call for Sokratesz to resign. His continued pursuit of a personal vendetta while on the CSM is immature, unprofessional, distracting, and disturbing. Sok wasn't the spoon's intended target and he wasn't doing anything to goad or inflame the situation. All he has done so far is report the occurrence. Originally by: Delilah Wild If a real problem like this arose, then it should be dealt with in a professional manner. Spreading rumours is not acceptable behaviour. It isn't a rumour. Of course by stating the facts (even including the context of a side discussion) I'm now appearing to take sides and thus I expect more Anti-Sok sentiment to spill over to others on the CSM... TeaDaze.net Blog \| CSM Database
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.26 17:22:00 - [14] Teadaze best Daze. á We was in Iceland
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.26 17:26:00 - [15] Same old song and dance. Point out Ank's own words? You're trolling. Point out Ank's own stated beliefs and behaviors? You're smearing her. If you post an accurate report of Ank's own actions? Why, you have to step down from the CSM! The truth is a rumor, stating the facts is a vendetta, ayieeeee!! ****ing troll, go away already.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.26 17:40:00 - [16] Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Same old song and dance. Point out Ank's own words? You're trolling. Point out Ank's own stated beliefs and behaviors? You're smearing her. If you post an accurate report of Ank's own actions? Why, you have to step down from the CSM! The truth is a rumor, stating the facts is a vendetta, ayieeeee!! ****ing troll, go away already. note to self, i should stop blowing the cover on my NC alt á We was in Iceland
Miyamoto Isoruku Caldari Original Sin.	Posted - 2010.06.26 18:39:00 - [17] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Same old song and dance. Point out Ank's own words? You're trolling. Point out Ank's own stated beliefs and behaviors? You're smearing her. If you post an accurate report of Ank's own actions? Why, you have to step down from the CSM! The truth is a rumor, stating the facts is a vendetta, ayieeeee!! ****ing troll, go away already. note to self, i should stop blowing the cover on my NC alt note to self, i should stop blowing the cover on my CSM alt
Miyamoto Isoruku Caldari Original Sin.	Posted - 2010.06.26 19:09:00 - [18] Originally by: Delilah Wild Edited by: Delilah Wild on 26/06/2010 14:20:55 If Ank threw something at someone in a public meeting out of anger, I'll be the first to call for her to step down. If this does turn out to be true, then I'll also call for Sokratesz to resign. His continued pursuit of a personal vendetta while on the CSM is immature, unprofessional, distracting, and disturbing. If a real problem like this arose, then it should be dealt with in a professional manner. Spreading rumours is not acceptable behaviour. Delilah friendsofeve.wordpress.com For a moment there, I very nearly thought words had failed me. It was frightening. But it was also a false alarm. Allow me to simply state that if you cannot understand the difference between criticizing another member of the CSM and throwing a spoon at one, then you are simply beyond help. Sokratesz is well within his rights, both as a player and as a member of the CSM, to criticize a colleague he considers to be incompetent. Ankh, however, is most certainly not within her rights to start throwing silverware. That is behavior one would expect from a child having a temper tantrum, not an elected official.
Meissa Anunthiel	Posted - 2010.06.26 19:27:00 - [19] Some clarifications, go drama about it/me/her if you want or not, I don't mind either way. (and to be fair, ankhe drama best drama). Sorry for the long poast, I'm a terrible poaster, I don't poast a lot, you now know why... TL;DR: a spoon originating from Ankhe came in my direction, it landed on a table, ankhe wielded it, it was directed at me, I assume meaning to catch my attention, not cause any harm. I still think words work better, but that's me. Here's what happened, from day -365 to the spooning and beyond. How I came to think what I think about Eva I was an alternate on CSM 2 (she was main). I tried during the whole 6 months to have constructive arguments with Ankhe and, even beyond that time period, when I was in CSM 3 as a main and Erik Finnegarn was used as a relay for Ankhe's stuff, I regularly tried discussing things directly with her. My conclusion after those genuine and extensive communication attempts was/is that Ankhe was someone putting in lots of effort into the CSM, but was ultimately too unknowledgeable and impossible to have constructive conversations with that it wasn't worth my time any longer. The reason constructive conversations are impossible with her is that, in my opinion, she perceives any criticism of her proposals as a personal attack and becomes all defensive about it, or, worse, disregard comments with such statements as "you are misinformed", "you don't know what you are talking about", "you are anti-PVE/FW/Whatever", when it clearly is not the case. I would like to offer a counterexample. Dierdra Vaal and I have wildly different opinions about the game and where the balances should lie. We have discussions about the proposals, where I take into account his experience, he takes into account mine, we get the facts straight, we discuss about the relative merits and impacts and, when amending the proposals to take into account the legitimate concerns of the other turns to be impossible, agree to disagree. I love that (and I think he does too). I am extremely happy that Dierdra got in BECAUSE I disagree with him and we can share our experiences and points of view in a constructive manner and make the game hopefully better for everyone. I am in a position that is a bit unusual as far as CSM member platforms go. I am an industrialist who spends most of his time PvEing (wormholes, exploration in high/low/nullsec, missioning). I am in a PvP alliance, I like the adrenaline kicks these things provide, so I also PvP a lot. As such, I have things to contribute to most proposals and regularly play devil's advocate to poke holes into proposals, point the flaws, the unintended consequences, etc. even on proposals I like. Anyway, my perception is that it is impossible with Ankhe and I made my position on that question clear during the CSM elections.
Meissa Anunthiel	Posted - 2010.06.26 19:27:00 - [20] Iceland pre-spoon I won't comment on the individual stances of the individual members towards Eva (or hers towards them) except to say that I was/am clearly and visibly to anyone involved the person one could qualify as "anti-ankhe". To be precise, I don't care one way or another about Eva, I'm dealing with Ankhesentapemkah, CSM member, with/against whom I have to work to get stuff accomplished for the Eve Community. Eve more, I think the points of view she claims to want to represent need to be represented (let me repeat, I'm a carebear). I just was/am genuinely convinced she is the worst person to defend those things because her attitude antagonizes the interlocutor. Considering this, my stance has been to give her a chance until she screws it up. My way of doing it has been to ignore her (except during CSM meetings, if I thought nobody was pointing out clear flaws in what she was saying). This may be perceived as childish and/or immature, and that's a fair criticism, but considering what preceded and follows, it seems to me like a very valid course of action. What it was like was: I said "Hi" to her and shook her hand when she arrived, didn't say another word to her at all during that day/evening. Didn't say a word to her (though I did present the developers with opinion contrary to hers, just not adressing her) during the first day of the CSM meetings. That evening, she elected to sit at the table I was at despite lots more chairs being available. I once again ignored her, thereby denying her any opportunity for conflict/attention, if that's what she was after. Day 2: same ignorance. However, during the PvE discussion with the content team from Atlanta, she said something I didn't agree with at all on a subject close to her heart, I voiced, once more to the devs, my opinion totally contrary to hers. She decided to try and discard my remark with a very professional statement(sic): "It doesn't matter, I represent more people than you". First off, that comment is patently false because that same comment had been made before by other CSM members, in addition to which, the statement was a question of balance that impacts everyone, not just her voters. Either way, the point of a discussion is to present opinions/ideas and to work on them. ad hominem attacks and argumentum ad populum are fallacies that have no place in a constructive conversation. I started answering before Mynxee interrupted me, knowing where it would go. I kept my peace and shut up. Moving on... Day 3: More ignorance. Factional Warfare discussion comes up, it's ankhe's moment, the initial presentation is promising, she does that well. I decide to let others contribute more so as not to antagonize her. She mumbles and fumbles and fails to get her point accross, but others come to the rescue (Sokratesz and DV, mostly, if I recall correctly). Questions of balance spring up. I disagree with her statements and express them once more. Ankhe is visibly irked. After a last statement offering a differing point of view, I turn to Mynxee and Vuk Lau to whisper a follow-up on questions we were asking one another pertaining to the matter being discussed (so as to get our facts straight and not needlessly interrupt the ongoing conversation with facts that are not accurate), that's when the spoon flies.
Meissa Anunthiel	Posted - 2010.06.26 19:27:00 - [21] Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 26/06/2010 19:35:01 The Spoon Moment The spoon was a standard tea spoon, about 3 inches in size, made of stainless steel, quite pretty. It used to be in Ankhe's cup of whatever. It was sent in my direction and landed on the table. I can only assume it was sent in exasperation to me not listening to her trying to discard my comment as invalid once more, or she wanted me to whisper to her instead, I do not know. Either way, I'm extremely doubtful it was sent with the intent to harm, more as a double function of attention grabber and displeasure expression. I considered what to do with the spoon for a moment and chose to keep it in my hand instead of retaliating, which would have been very funny but ultimately pointless. The Future More ignoring later... Meetings conclude, I give her spoon back to her when we leave the building. As we approach the hotel, ankhe seems to want to discuss with me about the ongoing 'conflict'. I'm happy to tell her what I think about her and her attitude without any nice wrapping and hippocrisy. This was in essence what I said above plus reassuring her that I didn't think she was fundamentally unintelligent (I don't think she's unintelligent, she just can't use her intelligence in a productive manner), that it's a matter of communication and being less emo, yadda yadda... I finished the conversation by stating that I would be willing to work with her in the future, giving her the benefit of the doubt, at the condition she contributes meaningfully and stop discarding criticism in the manner she's done before, prefering to argue on the data presented instead. I added that should that not be the case, I'll happily vote down anything she brings up if that's the only way of preventing an unproductive member of getting elected. Other members feeling free to raise the same proposal, I'll vote them then according to their merit, but deny her the attribution of accomplishment (if you got this thing, it's because I raised it) she seems to crave. She summarized it as me forcing her to play on my terms, I agreed that that was what I was doing, since nothing else works. She finished by telling me that if I went on a 'negative voting spree', CCP would remove me from the CSM, which I'm certain a load of bull excrement and pointed it out. Tired of the conversation (after 30 minutes), I asked her to reflect on that, that the ball was in her camp, and told her that I would look forward to working with her. I think this effort is going to prove an exercise in futility, but we will see, nobody is so far gone that there is no hope... Or some are... Meissa, Spooned
Mynxee	Posted - 2010.06.26 20:53:00 - [22] Great job guys. Way to create another ***storm about an essentially inconsequential event that totally derails any attempt to demonstrate that we can conduct ourselves even a little pro on the CSM. WTF are you trying to do, sabotage the fragile threads of credibility that we are trying to establish for CSM? I'm pretty disappointed that you felt it was necessary to spin this kind of crap. Seriously...if I* tossed a spoon at Meissa, would there be a thread and and a crusade against me? There's no reason to do this and no good that can come of it. You can spin it any way you want to justify it, but seriously, pull your **ing heads out of your asses for once and try to consider ALL the implications of juvenile stunts like this. Its one thing to joke around about Ankh or * about her to someone face to face if you don't like her, but this kind of public witch hunt is the worst kind of pandering to the rabid trolls in these and other forums where your superfluous "information sharing" has been posted. And yeah thanks a ing lot for the unpleasant situation you have put me in, too. I'm not going to engage in any further discussion here about this. You can talk with me on MSN about if you want to. Also I have advised Ankh not to respond here, because after all, what the good would it do? Jesus **ing christ. Life In Low Sec
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.26 21:13:00 - [23] There's nothing inherent in this that demonstrates that the CSM can't function professionally. In point of fact, noting that a member behaves in a childish manner and throws temper tantrums (complete with pitching silverware) points out that member's behavior, only. And her voters as well as the rest of EVE have a right to know that this sort of stuff is going on. It's actually a bit disconcerting that your response is to be annoyed that people reported what went on. Don't you think that the EVE playbase deserves to know who's on the CSM and what its issues are? If you chucked a spoon at someone would it be news? Maybe, maybe not. It probably would if you were developing a noticeable history of being difficult to work with and pulling childish stunts when you don't get your way. It's also odd to call this a "witch hunt". That implies that the situation is baseless and anybody is just casting around for a scapegoat. Quite the contrary, it seems that your objection is that the facts are 100% accurate and everything said has been truthful, but you believe it paints the CSM in a poor light. It doesn't. It paints one single CSM member in a poor light, based on that member's verified actions. The person who put you into an unpleasant situation is the one whose behavior has sparked this discussion, not the people who mentioned that behavior. The attitude "don't talk about the systemic misbehavior of one of the CSM members, it makes us look bad!" will make the CSM look bad. Forthright and honest discussion would be quite a different issue.
Virtuozzo Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.06.26 21:34:00 - [24] You know, once upon a time when the CSM was introduced people saw it as a free trip to Iceland, others saw it as a way to get the inside scoop ahead of time, and yet others saw it as CCP marketing (which to players has a different meaning then what until this CSM many CCP staff considered it to be). Over time, that changed, because of striking a balance between the entertainment of the elections, and getting to work when those were over. After all, accountability is not something which solely applies to CCP. Personally I don't give a ** about preferences in game play, political backgrounds or anything like that, because the CSM concept is pretty much the only thing that has a potential to have a solid impact. I couldn't care less about personal differences, or private petty emo. I really have zero interest or feel for PVE or anything related, but for the process that does not matter one bit. But what I do hope, is that people realise that until the next elections begin, there is a lot of work to be done if the last resort of this CSM concept is to have an impact on CCP, on all levels, especially those levels where the decisions are made. Yeah, we all like the gossip, the stories, the entertainment, but given the state of the game itself in being in shambles of half finished content and feature sets, the future for the product shown by product marketing, the abyssmal performance of the game, and the enormous divide between players and those who make the calls and do not play themselves, you would think that people would be able to think for a moment. Especially those who stepped up to get to work, because they told their voters to care and safeguard their fun & comfort zones. Tbh, as a player, I would expect the CSM members to work as a team, to sort out balances and differences, to keep finding best practices as well as compromises in order to keep their noses pointing the same way. I don't need to hear or read this kind of **, regardless of actualy or factuality, it is misplaced, without useful focus, and it diminishes the CSM as a whole. Why? Because it's the last straw to get through to CCP. Because you signed up to work for it. Because you committed yourself to be there for EVE as a whole and the people who voted for you. What do you want, honestly. Next business monday the people at CCP who make the calls, visit the forums because through a lot of concerted effort and work they have actually woken up, they see stuff like this and wave the last week aside again. "K guyz, was a tough week with those guys in Iceland, but lookie, they can't keep it together, alright, so what else can we introduce for the Winter Expansion which lacks PVP content, has tons of Farmville in it, and makes people stay less long in EVE?" You know, us players, we can fool around and do stuff, CSM members, they have a responsability they themselves chose to take on. J'ai violT votre vaisseau spatial. C'Ttait amusant. ≡v≡
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Cruoris Seraphim Exalted.	Posted - 2010.06.26 21:44:00 - [25] stop wasting time on ankh and work on real matters :P all of csm members were elected there to represent certain groups of voters not **** up with little matters like someone having wrong opinions or whatsoever.
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.26 21:53:00 - [26] Quote: it diminishes the CSM as a whole. Except this does not diminish the CSM as a whole. That's the whole point, that most of the CSM is working diligently at doing their assigned task. There should be full transparency and honest reporting. Otherwise the CSM looks bad. Saying that the CSM looks bad for being open and honest about what's going on is nonsensical.
SIEGE RED	Posted - 2010.06.26 21:59:00 - [27] I'm a what most around here would call a noob, not having played that long. I like this game, but it really is broken in so many places that it just ain't funny. But damn, it is worth it. I'm not a game designer, it's all magic to me. But one thing is really clear here: when people differ in opinions, but are required to work together for the sake of people behind them and all of them, even if they differ in principles, you always take care to tackle the differences and compromises internally. To the outside, you always operate as a united front. If you don't want to get results because you don't care yourself, then let it be every man for his own entertainment. Make room then for people who do.
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.26 22:06:00 - [28] No, you really don't always operate as a "united front". That sort of behavior makes you look really, really bad when things screw up. Actively opposing transparency and accountability makes organizations look bad. Actively having a commitment to deal openly and honestly with issues and fix them quickly does not. And it looks especially bad to actively campaign against honestly relating facts to the playbase. Why would it have made the CSM look bad if we knew that each and every single member was diligently working to improve things, except for one? Up until now we had a story where one CSM member was unable to act like an adult. Now we have a statement which heavily suggests that the proper course of action would have been a coverup and for the voters to be none the wiser, come the next election, as to what's actually going on.
SIEGE RED	Posted - 2010.06.26 22:19:00 - [29] Originally by: FinnAgain Zero troll
Stevakis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.06.26 22:28:00 - [30] **ing idiots. Sokratesz and Meissa, I hope you are proud that you dust undid everything you accomplished. The only liability to the CSM is you two with your unprofessional childish bull** vendetta againt Ankh. Please just resign.
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.26 22:38:00 - [31] Are we back at the standard Ank-ploy, those who point out the facts about her that are unflattering are trolls? I think most of us have had enough of that game. In any case, transparency rather obviously means more than the simple minutes that are put out for meetings. This is both obvious and very, very basic. There is more that goes on in an organization than what is recorded by a secretary. Don't call the facts "spin". An organization that conducts itself with honesty and openness doesn't seek to hide the fact that one of its members is unable to properly do their job simply because it's not on the record. And you may hold CCP in such low regard that you think they're morons who live by the fallacies of composition and division, but if they've got half a brain in their heads they'll judge the summit by what was actually accomplished and not by the misbehavior of one (and only one) member. The entire reason that the CSM was formed in the first place was that, when faced with the misbehavior of one of its members, instead of prompt and transparent action, CCP tried to prevent a "united front" and lost almost all credibility for years. The lesson to be learned is not that CCP should've just backed T20 even more or that Kugu really was the badguy for pointing out the facts, but that secrecy and bull**** 'solidarity' is self-defeating when obvious mistakes have been made. The lesson is not, "well, you just need to be even more dedicated to closing ranks and being even more tight-lipped when obvious problems come up." The story yesterday was "one lone CSM member repeatedly behaving badly." The story today is "some elements of the CSM want to keep the playerbase in the dark about misbehavior going on in the CSM so they can preserve their image rather than achieving transparency when dealing with the playerbase." This is not an improvement.
Vittorian	Posted - 2010.06.26 22:40:00 - [32] You guys really are doing a good job of making this whole circus look like a joke. How the **** are you all unable to shut an idiot like ank down? What is it actually you guys are trying to achieve?
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.26 22:48:00 - [33] Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 26/06/2010 22:50:46 Obvious troll alt is obviously trolling. CCP is not going to scrap all the CSM's proposals and input because Ank can't behave like a grownup, much less because someone else related the 100% true and accurate facts. And you know it. Stop trolling. This "Ayieeeee, now the CSM is undone! Not because a member is behaving badly, but because other people commented on it!!!" simply does not fly. You're not fooling anybody. And seriously, enough of your trolling. Enough of your trolling. Enough. That's it. No more of this "The facts are trolling! Damn the facts, damn them!!!" No more calling relating facts "smears" or a "vendette". Yes yes, reality has a clear anti-Ank bias, damn reality right to hell! This is the same exact trolling we've seen since the campaign, and it's idiotic. You're like a pack of Scientologists. You can't face the facts, so when they're pointed out you just go into rabid attack dog mode and angrily gum the ankles of those pointing out the facts. No defense, always attack. If someone points out that Ank is unbalanced and cannot behave like an adult? Why... then they must not be behaving like adults! We all know you don't really believe it, and you're not fooling anybody. At all.
iP0D	Posted - 2010.06.26 23:35:00 - [34] Finny, stop trolling man. If you like the game, and want it to perform, you'll give a proper process like a CSM that has a job to do, room to do its job. If you don't, by all means continue as current. No, now don't run off texting and trying to think of more things to throw in the **tail. There's no room for the drunk tail, it's business now. When the next elections come, we can go ape**, sure. Right now, like one of the other posts mentioned if you want CSM to work, they have to take it on professionally. Playing emo politics doesn't match with that.
Jan Forjeu	Posted - 2010.06.27 00:13:00 - [35] Originally by: iP0D Finny, stop trolling man. If you like the game, and want it to perform, you'll give a proper process like a CSM that has a job to do, room to do its job. If you don't, by all means continue as current. No, now don't run off texting and trying to think of more things to throw in the **tail. There's no room for the drunk tail, it's business now. When the next elections come, we can go ape**, sure. Right now, like one of the other posts mentioned if you want CSM to work, they have to take it on professionally. Playing emo politics doesn't match with that. It's idiots like this that pollute the discussion. I'll spell it out for all of you once and for all: ANKH IS NOT HELPING AT ALL AND EVERYBODY WHO SUPPORTS HER IS SADDER THAN SHE IS.
Dograzor The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.06.27 00:26:00 - [36] Do you CSM guys have any more.. positive stuff to talk about/mention/show? This tread was about how awesome it all was in iceland, and turned into a mudthrowing debate about CSM delegates. I want nice CSM group pictures of you all in Iceland, put a name to the faces, get to hear some fun behind the scenes things (positive things please), read some fun anecdotes, you guys shaking hands with CCP, whatever, not this utter pile of smacktalking crap & trolling. You guys do realize that you are representatives of the EVE community, and that I expect you to act as such? If somebody has an outburst during a debate, I would expect that the response to it should be professionally, & I don't see it necessary for it to be published. So dear mr. Sokratesz, I implore you, give it a new start, post some fun pictures, some other updates on what you did, how everything was like, give us the followup, & make it worth reading :) Thank you :) - "We don't gank, we just apply force in a disproportionate manner during an uneven tactical combat situation to maximize revenue and increase shareholder value"
Squat Hardpeck State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.06.27 00:27:00 - [37] Originally by: Mynxee Great job guys. Way to create another ***storm about an essentially inconsequential event that totally derails any attempt to demonstrate that we can conduct ourselves even a little pro on the CSM. WTF are you trying to do, sabotage the fragile threads of credibility that we are trying to establish for CSM? I'm pretty disappointed that you felt it was necessary to spin this kind of crap. Seriously...if I* tossed a spoon at Meissa, would there be a thread and and a crusade against me? There's no reason to do this and no good that can come of it. You can spin it any way you want to justify it, but seriously, pull your **ing heads out of your asses for once and try to consider ALL the implications of juvenile stunts like this. Its one thing to joke around about Ankh or * about her to someone face to face if you don't like her, but this kind of public witch hunt is the worst kind of pandering to the rabid trolls in these and other forums where your superfluous "information sharing" has been posted. And yeah thanks a ing lot for the unpleasant situation you have put me in, too. I'm not going to engage in any further discussion here about this. You can talk with me on MSN about if you want to. Also I have advised Ankh not to respond here, because after all, what the good would it do? Jesus **ing christ. So much for being professional.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.27 00:32:00 - [38] Finn: you're being a bit too optimistic, I'd say. Sure, you distinguish between Ankh and the others, but do you really think the average Eve player who doesn't pay close attention to the CSM will remember the difference? The story they'll remember is the CSM throwing spoons, and they'll completely forget about the effectiveness of the meetings, the actual issues they brought forward, and all the other good stuff. That's not to say that we should keep everything under wraps - or that it'd be possible even if you wanted to - but you have to remember how other people will see this stuff, and not just how you see it. Also, I think you'd get a lot more people to take you opinions seriously if you stopped acting like a gargantuan prick towards everyone who disagrees with you. Mynx: Conversely, I think you're going too far the other way. Yeah, it'll play badly. Yeah, people will get bad impressions of the CSM. But seriously, why are you blaming Meissa for this? It was reported to the world by an anonymous alt - perhaps you know who the main is, but I sure don't - and from there, we could hardly fail to get further information trickling out as people did their assorted WTFing. So unless you track down their main, responsibility for this rests solely on the shoulders of the person who actually did the action in question. I get that you're **ed, but communications discipline is near-impossible in real governments, never mind ones composed of nine nerds volunteering to debate internet spaceships. You're trying to close the barn door after the horse(mule?) has escaped. Besides, while what the players think about the CSM matters, what CCP thinks matters more. I don't think CCP needs to be told what happened on the forums. Ultimately, this whole situation is total horse**. Yes, when you put three people in a room, you get politics. That's human nature. But it doesn't have to be the politics of a second-grade schoolyard. I wasn't in Iceland, I don't know who acted professionally and who made an ass of themselves. I'd really like to think the count is 9 and 0, but we all know that wasn't the case the whole time. The best way to prevent stuff like this from damaging the CSM's reputation is to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place. Those of you who acted in a sub-par fashion - and I'm sure you know who you are - knock it the hell off.
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.06.27 00:58:00 - [39] Edited by: TeaDaze on 27/06/2010 00:59:17 Originally by: Dograzor Do you CSM guys have any more.. positive stuff to talk about/mention/show? Just to clarify, the meeting minutes should be out in the next week at which time we can talk in more detail about what was discussed. This is because when CCP staff are involved in a CSM meeting the minutes have to be agreed by both CSM and CCP. Some stuff will be under NDA (don tinfoil hats). Spoongate was a few minutes during the second to last session out of around 26 hours of meetings. People were tired and the issue under discussion was emotive. I only confirmed the incident happened because Delilah Wild has some kind of Anti-Sok sentiment and called him a liar I can honestly say the majority of the meetings ended with constructive action points. A couple of meetings did not, but in those cases it was not due to CSM members. We hope some of these action points will lead to player requested changes in Eve, but that remains to be seen. An example of the CSM working together (that I can talk about before the minutes are published). DV and I were in Iceland early and felt that the Factional Warfare presentation that Ank had drafted needed some tweaking. It did have all the relevant issues listed but by her admission hadn't yet been polished. We spent about 4 hours on layout changes, drawing diagrams and rewording to ensure it best supported the proposal. When Ank arrived in Iceland, DV and her spent another 3 hours on it which resulted in a high quality presentation which all three of us were happy with. The CSM are probably more united on most topics than CCP would like I spoke to Ank earlier today and confirmed that if I disagree with a proposal of hers that it isn't a personal attack. Going forward I am hopeful that things will settle down on all sides - much to the dismay of the trolls wishing to see dramaz. TeaDaze.net Blog \| CSM Database
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.27 01:24:00 - [40] Quote: acting like a gargantuan prick towards everyone who disagrees with you. Indeed, the very model of decorum. Quote: If you like the game, and want it to perform, you'll give a proper process like a CSM that has a job to do, room to do its job. If you don't, by all means continue as current. Ahhh, the standard song and dance. If someone honestly and logically doesn't agree with you, they must be trolling! Of course, you and I both know that giving a body "room to do its job" has nothing, at all, to do with pointing out when members of that body aren't doing their jobs properly. In fact, the ability to point out when folks aren't working properly within the group is essential to maintaining transparency and accountability.
Don Pellegrino Helljumpers	Posted - 2010.06.27 01:51:00 - [41] I find it hilarious that it is impossible to report negative facts about Ankh in an objective manner (without expressing an opinion) without being labeled as an anti-ankh crusader. We, players, need to know about it and Sokratesz just said that it happened, which is fine, no need to go all emo about it.
Miyamoto Isoruku Caldari Original Sin.	Posted - 2010.06.27 01:53:00 - [42] Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Quote: If you like the game, and want it to perform, you'll give a proper process like a CSM that has a job to do, room to do its job. If you don't, by all means continue as current. Ahhh, the standard song and dance. If someone honestly and logically doesn't agree with you, they must be trolling! Of course, you and I both know that giving a body "room to do its job" has nothing, at all, to do with pointing out when members of that body aren't doing their jobs properly. In fact, the ability to point out when folks aren't working properly within the group is essential to maintaining transparency and accountability. My dear Finn, if I didn't know better I would say it sounded like someone had just accused you of committing journalism. I hear that's a capital offense in some parts.
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.06.27 02:38:00 - [43] Drama in the CSM? Well I never...
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.27 02:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Marlona Sky Drama in the CSM? Well I never... Yes, this has never happened before.
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.27 03:50:00 - [45] Quote: someone had just accused you of committing journalism. Well, you know what they say... if people would just stop talking about what elected officials do when they're not making public statements, they'd have a much easier time crafting a public image.
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.06.27 11:34:00 - [46] I dont think this does anything to detract from my opinion of the CSM as a functional and useful entity as a whole. It does cement my opinion that Ankh is mentally unstable. I do not feel melting down on the other CSM members by mynxee is warranted, even if she feels this makes -her- job harder (and it does). Mynxee: you are not responsible for how others in the CSM behave, you are not responsible for threads about ankhs behaviour either. Do not draw these things -to- yourself, there is no need. I firmly believe that CSM is a useful project, and with people like mynxee on board even the completely flaked out behaviour of one delegate will not detract from it's utility. Just use ankh's latent psychosis and drama as free publicity for a great initiative instead and call it a day :)
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.06.27 11:38:00 - [47] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Marlona Sky Drama in the CSM? Well I never... Yes, this has never happened before. That thread serves a useful purpose in reminding us that although Ankh has her flaws, at least she's not Jade. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.27 11:48:00 - [48] Edited by: Sokratesz on 27/06/2010 11:54:20 I posted a wall of text report, one phrase gets highlighted and everybody denounces the entirety of the CSM for it. (And they accuse me of being obsessed with her?) The summit was, in my book, very productive and I enjoyed it greatly. There were many fruitful discussions and brainstorms, the only reason I didn't mention the content of that is the NDA, and as promised you will receive a lot more info and clarification after the minutes have beep published. This incident says nothing about our 'professional attitudes' or 'the success/failure of the CSM'. It was just an incident, get over it, and wait until the content of what was discussed is released. á We was in Iceland
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2010.06.27 11:57:00 - [49] Much ado about nothing tbh, that Ank is somewhat bonkers is hardly news. So move a long, nothing here to see. For a capable CSM this shouldn't be more than a bump in the road.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.27 11:59:00 - [50] Originally by: Don Pellegrino I find it hilarious that it is impossible to report negative facts about Ankh in an objective manner (without expressing an opinion) without being labeled as an anti-ankh crusader. We, players, need to know about it and Sokratesz just said that it happened, which is fine, no need to go all emo about it. Originally by: FinnAgain Zero And seriously, enough of your trolling. Enough of your trolling. Enough. That's it. No more of this "The facts are trolling! Damn the facts, damn them!!!" No more calling relating facts "smears" or a "vendetta". Yes yes, reality has a clear anti-Ank bias, damn reality right to hell! This is the same exact trolling we've seen since the campaign, and it's idiotic. You're like a pack of Scientologists. You can't face the facts, so when they're pointed out you just go into rabid attack dog mode and angrily gum the ankles of those pointing out the facts. No defense, always attack. If someone points out that Ank is unbalanced and cannot behave like an adult? Why... then they must not be behaving like adults! We all know you don't really believe it, and you're not fooling anybody. At all. Quoting this because it neatly summarizes my thoughts on the matter. á We was in Iceland
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.27 12:01:00 - [51] Originally by: Aineko Macx Much ado about nothing tbh, that Ank is somewhat bonkers is hardly news. So move a long, nothing here to see. For a capable CSM this shouldn't be more than a bump in the road. And it hasn't been anything else, but it is being greatly exaggerated. See above, also. á We was in Iceland
Deki 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.06.27 12:28:00 - [52] Tbh I blame Sok for posting this **** on SHC and German forums in pursuit of attracting more voters. Personally I think I am the one of the rare CSM 2,3,5 delegates who dont particularly dislike Eva, but I am amazed with the need of certain people (even delegates), now and before elections, to troll and smack her and giving her even more attentions "slash" voters. Just for the record, every CSM lineup where she was on, had at least one worse delegate then she is. Vuk Lau P.S. Free Vuk Lau
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.06.27 12:34:00 - [53] Originally by: Deki Tbh I blame Sok for posting this **** on SHC and German forums in pursuit of attracting more voters. Personally I think I am the one of the rare CSM 2,3,5 delegates who dont particularly dislike Eva, but I am amazed with the need of certain people (even delegates), now and before elections, to troll and smack her and giving her even more attentions "slash" voters. Just for the record, every CSM lineup where she was on, had at least one worse delegate then she is. Vuk Lau P.S. Free Vuk Lau Sophia Lau Best Lau! á We was in Iceland
Larkonis Trassler Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.06.27 15:00:00 - [54] It appears that Ankh is completely unable to act in a dignified, professional and sane manner. She is clearly a disruptive influence on the group dynamic and appears to be fixated on her own narrow agenda. Having read the minutes from previous meetings and with this new revelation I wonder how long it will be before she has a complete hormone induced meltdown. In the interests of the player base, the CSM as a whole and most importantly herself I think Ankh has no option but to resign.
Dodgy Past Amarr Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.06.27 15:01:00 - [55] Edited by: Dodgy Past on 27/06/2010 15:04:01 Ankh could figure that given the composition of the CSM it does give an idea of the way the players that can be bothered to get involved in the management of the game feel. She could try to work as a member of the team to try to make the best of the situation, or she can demonstrate why she is completely unfit to handle the responsibilities that have been placed on her. The interesting thing is that while claiming that others are sociopaths for fighting in a video game that focuses on conflict, if you consider her inability to respect other human beings out of game if they fail to share her exact view points then one starts to have serious concerns about her. Mynxee, I'd just say you have a hideous job, but bear in mind that if all of the people in the CSM are doing their best to work together yet one is incapable of behaving within civilised norms it isn't something should be swept under the carpet. Otherwise it just ends up continuing the cloak of secrecy that CCP enforces through NDAs and means we can't actually judge whether the CSM is worth anyone's time and attention. We already have to 'trust' the CSM on enough things so when you start choosing what we 'deserve' to know on the basis protecting the self importance of the CSM that trust will be rapidly pushed to breaking point. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards.
Kiko Tojima Amarr Daughters of Hada	Posted - 2010.06.27 15:12:00 - [56] Spoongate just showed that Ankh is an ardent PvPer after all She just don't know it yet...
Tudum Zagorac Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.06.27 16:01:00 - [57] Originally by: Deki Tbh I blame Sok for posting this **** on SHC and German forums in pursuit of attracting more voters. Personally I think I am the one of the rare CSM 2,3,5 delegates who dont particularly dislike Eva, but I am amazed with the need of certain people (even delegates), now and before elections, to troll and smack her and giving her even more attentions "slash" voters. Just for the record, every CSM lineup where she was on, had at least one worse delegate then she is. Vuk Lau P.S. Free Vuk Lau Koji si ti jebeni licemjer.PrestraÜno.Lupila ti ova igra u glavu Vučiću.Prestani dok ne pukneÜ skroz.
The Crushah Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.06.27 16:42:00 - [58] Heres the way I see it: Miners, industrialists, anti-griefers, etc. are certainly entitled to representation on the CSM. The problem is you pick a completely inflexible and irrational individual to represent your interests. I wouldnt expect to receive many concessions if I were you. Why do I feel like im talking about american politics here...
Shigsy Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.06.27 17:03:00 - [59] _________________________________
Pallidum Treponema Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.06.27 17:16:00 - [60] Shigs wins thread. --
Optimus Ryhme	Posted - 2010.06.27 17:34:00 - [61] Edited by: Optimus Ryhme on 27/06/2010 17:34:33 Originally by: The Crushah Heres the way I see it: Miners, industrialists, anti-griefers, etc. are certainly entitled to representation on the CSM. The problem is you pick a completely inflexible and irrational individual to represent your interests. Anhk being a **** aside...I think waiting for the minutes to be posted is most wise. ninja edit: **** = short bus rider.
TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.27 17:46:00 - [62] I hope those "OMG ANKH FOR CSM" muppets finally see their folly. _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.06.27 18:01:00 - [63] Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing I hope those "OMG ANKH FOR CSM" muppets finally see their folly. Because someone is but hurt about a spoon?
Snake O'Donell Gallente Habitual Euthanasia	Posted - 2010.06.27 18:34:00 - [64] http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3970/spoonwar.jpg Please re-size your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.06.27 20:12:00 - [65] Originally by: Deki P.S. Free Vuk Lau No. Also, when are you gonna start representing the EVE community in the CSM?
Flying Spaghettiemonster	Posted - 2010.06.27 21:04:00 - [66] Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing I hope those "OMG ANKH FOR CSM" muppets finally see their folly. Because someone is but hurt about a spoon? Imagine the situation being reversed. There would be no end to the rage of individuals like you and delilah about someone daring to throw a spoon, a potentially dangerous object (it could have hit her in the eye after all!) at their beloved candidate!
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.27 21:29:00 - [67] Hell, we've seen people demand the resignation of folks who simply reported on the fact that Ank is a silverware flinger. I'm not sure that many folks are fooled that those same folks would be just fine if it was a question of people chucking things at Ank, instead.
T'Amber www.shipsofeve.com Origin of Symmetry	Posted - 2010.06.27 21:49:00 - [68] tl;dr i thought the summit was next week. SHIPS OF EVE 5.5 win cool stuffÖ

CCP Zymurgist Gallente C C P	Posted - 2010.06.27 22:06:00 - [69] Everyone please remember to post constructively and with civility. This doesn't mean you can't disagree just try not to be a troll while you do it. Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact Us

Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.06.27 22:24:00 - [70] This video is definitely related to this thread. -------- All I want is a better mankind.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2010.06.27 22:52:00 - [71] Originally by: Mynxee Great job guys. Way to create another ****storm about an essentially inconsequential event that totally derails any attempt to demonstrate that we can conduct ourselves even a little pro on the CSM. WTF are you trying to do I think the question is more what are you trying to do? If I understand you correctly you are upset because Sok has got in the road of your ability to "demonstrate that we can conduct ourselves even a little pro on the CSM." He told the truth right - but you don't think we can handle the truth . . . I think we all know that elected bodies like their constituancy to have the wool pulled over the head - I'm suprised you are so blatent about it. I dunno Mynxee but it is kinda hard to take you seriously now. Way to emo. I have been through many long, heated, meetings in my life but I am yet to see the spoon thrown. Ankh is truly special.
Dograzor The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.06.28 00:21:00 - [72] Originally by: Yakov Draken I dunno Mynxee but it is kinda hard to take you seriously now. Way to emo. You know she is being very straight to the point about this issue, and her message came over very clearly. Now stop trying to troll Mynx. - "We don't gank, we just apply force in a disproportionate manner during an uneven tactical combat situation to maximize revenue and increase shareholder value"
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2010.06.28 00:39:00 - [73] Originally by: Dograzor Originally by: Yakov Draken I dunno Mynxee but it is kinda hard to take you seriously now. Way to emo. You know she is being very straight to the point about this issue, and her message came over very clearly. Now stop trying to troll Mynx. I was reading Ankh's report before and came across the following: "In my opinion, the current CSM is the best and most productive so far, and I look forward to working with the other council members the coming year!" You gotta admit in light of the SPOON (and other reports from the evil Sok) this comments meaning changes - you gotta wonder what went on at the last few . Sure it would nice if we could just get along but when we can't at least be honest about it. They are elected officials with conflicting agenda's - we should have honest feedback to judge them by. I'm not sure Eve is ready for the CSM to go slick PR on us. As for the spoon it is hilarious. I think it should become the word for extra special carebears. FEAR THE SPOON!
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.28 00:41:00 - [74] Ahhh... disagreeing with your opinion is trolling. Classic. It certainly was a bit odd that Mynx's response was to get upset that the 100% accurate and correct facts were related to the playerbase. If one of the CSM members responds to frustration by not only constantly complaining about conspiracies against her and refusing to work with people who disagree with her, but by actually throwing things at people she doesn't like... well, the playerbase deserves to know about it. That's what transparency and accountability are all about. And, if nothing else, the voters deserve to know what's going on now rather than waiting till the next election cycle to be bombarded with all this **** at once. Mynxee is generally a quality player and seems to be a decent leader, but getting upset (in public) when the truth was reported is always a bad tactic. The best way to stop the playerbase learning of temper tantrums like the one that was reported is to make sure that CSM members aren't throwing temper tantrums. And nobody is responsible for anybody else's behavior.
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.06.28 02:31:00 - [75] Nerf spoons, buff forks.
Deki 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.06.28 02:38:00 - [76] Originally by: Marlona Sky Also, when are you gonna start representing the EVE community in the CSM? In terms of? I cant help bitter trolls, but if you be more specific I will give my best.
Killer Gandry Caldari TerraNovae	Posted - 2010.06.28 05:39:00 - [77] Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Ahhh... disagreeing with your opinion is trolling. Classic. Odd to see you take the word "troll" in your responces a lot more than anyone else. Anyone not agreeing with you is a troll. I looked back quit some responces of yours and I keep finding the same responce over and over, you calling the other party a troll. You only excell in taking a small portion of a statement which you can twist and turn, but I actually never see a responce to a whole statement. Fact is that this kind of derailments you progessivly support actually benefit nobody else than your e-peen in becomming the biggest troll and saboteur on the forums. There hasn't been anything really constructive sprung from your fingers in responce to anything. I for one feel sorry for you that this is the only way you think you can get attention.
captain foivos	Posted - 2010.06.28 05:51:00 - [78] Originally by: Abrazzar This video is definitely related to this thread. ...Holy mother of whatever deity you believe in. You're my hero, Abrazzar. Originally by: CCP Shadow If you're going to quote me that's great, but it must be something I've actually said. Shadow.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.06.28 10:58:00 - [79] Originally by: Sokratesz Lol. Personal vendetta? I liked her a lot more than I had expected and I merely reported on what happened. ~~Stop seeing things that aren't there~~. Good to see those male hormones, you are so full of, are kicking in. Over interpretation? Why, that is what this thread is all about. Btw. the race is on to see who of Ankh and Sok manages to get themselves removed from the CSM prematurely. Odds are looking equal. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Online Lorebook
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.28 12:12:00 - [80] Originally by: Killer Gandry Odd to see that I was rather obviously trolling you, so you used the word "troll" to describe my behavior. I know! Isn't it ironic? Dontcha think? Originally by: Killer Gandry Anyone not agreeing with you is a troll. Now Gandry, we've talked about your compulsion to lie in order to troll me, and you really should stop. Now get back to trolling me by suggesting that unlike everybody else who isn't a CSM and who posts on the forums, somehow I'm supposed to be a CSM. Originally by: Killer Gandry Now I'm going to troll you and engage in some deliberate dishonesty so I can claim that even though you're just a normal forum poster like almost everybody else in EVE, and nobody who's just a forum poster has done anything at all on the forums other than state their opinions, you haven't been able to do anything really constructive like flying out to Iceland and meeting with CCP. Nyeh nyeh! That a boy!
Killer Gandry Caldari TerraNovae	Posted - 2010.06.28 18:49:00 - [81] FinnNotAgain. Your replies become more pathetic by the day. Is the little cesspoole you normally take your comments from running dry?
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.06.28 19:13:00 - [82] Originally by: Sokratesz i mentioned to her the request for more transparency and more updates on the matter and she agreed that that might be a good thing That's very disconcerting - but completely in line with a lot of other things we get from CCP: incomplete, inaccurate, inconsistent, incomprehensible. More transparency and updates are one of the constant requests you can find and every time the reply is "that might be good". It just never happens. Kudos for continuing with something that appears to be pointless on so many levels.
thoth rothschild Aliastra	Posted - 2010.06.28 19:37:00 - [83] This reminds me on some eastern parliament with small brawl interims :p The CSM is presenting itself pretty bad in the player community. Read the entire forum thread with the point of view of a 3rd party and tell me what you think after the reading. to make a conclusion: - 1 person misbehaves - several people plantig the facts in forums knowing it will heat a discussion - showing no unity in forums - lack of communication You do not need to like each other but stop drama. Drama consists of - support - antisupport - facts - NDA - using informations you gained as profit of some kind - Diskussions of any kind with 3rd party members - quarrels in public
Mynxee	Posted - 2010.06.29 18:38:00 - [84] Time + sleep = perspective. Thus...rage-post modified with some measure of rational thought. Life In Low Sec
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2010.06.29 21:02:00 - [85] Originally by: Mynxee Time + sleep = perspective. Thus...rage-post modified with some measure of rational thought. Much better!
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2010.06.30 07:56:00 - [86] Btw, excellent retrospective of the summit, Mynxee!
Darth Vapour	Posted - 2010.06.30 08:14:00 - [87] Thanks for that second article, it confirms many of the predictions made before. Quote: The ball is in CCPÆs court. I think we've made it abundantly clear that CSM5 intends to return every half-hearted serve, every sloppy backhand, every uninspired lob with unparalleled intensity for point-set-match. This comparison between two tennis players would indicate the CSM and CCP are on some sort of equal level. Which of course they are not. You don't have a racket, a ball or are even present on the field. The CSM would be a linesman who calls out a foul time and time again, only to be ignored by the umpire and players.
Borgh Brainbasher Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.06.30 09:03:00 - [88] Originally by: Darth Vapour Thanks for that second article, it confirms many of the predictions made before. Quote: The ball is in CCPÆs court. I think we've made it abundantly clear that CSM5 intends to return every half-hearted serve, every sloppy backhand, every uninspired lob with unparalleled intensity for point-set-match. This comparison between two tennis players would indicate the CSM and CCP are on some sort of equal level. Which of course they are not. You don't have a racket, a ball or are even present on the field. The CSM would be a linesman who calls out a foul time and time again, only to be ignored by the umpire and players. If the CSM calls enough fouls, hopefully one of the players will eventually yell something along the lines of "why don't you do it yourself then" and then the csmees will cackle madly and renenact that scene from Kung Fu Hustle where a short guy turns out to be a tall guy sitting on a stool. --- Warning: You are on the pvp only server.
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.06.30 11:32:00 - [89] Originally by: Borgh Brainbasher Originally by: Darth Vapour Thanks for that second article, it confirms many of the predictions made before. Quote: The ball is in CCPÆs court. I think we've made it abundantly clear that CSM5 intends to return every half-hearted serve, every sloppy backhand, every uninspired lob with unparalleled intensity for point-set-match. This comparison between two tennis players would indicate the CSM and CCP are on some sort of equal level. Which of course they are not. You don't have a racket, a ball or are even present on the field. The CSM would be a linesman who calls out a foul time and time again, only to be ignored by the umpire and players. If the CSM calls enough fouls, hopefully one of the players will eventually yell something along the lines of "why don't you do it yourself then" and then the csmees will cackle madly and renenact that scene from Kung Fu Hustle where a short guy turns out to be a tall guy sitting on a stool. And then everyone will continue to do whatever they did immediately before that...
Sujanra Acoma Minmatar Shadow Kitty Legion	Posted - 2010.06.30 14:02:00 - [90] Originally by: Mynxee Time + sleep = perspective. Thus...rage-post modified with some measure of rational thought. Thank you for that. I was a little boggled by the last one.
Soma Khan	Posted - 2010.06.30 18:25:00 - [91] what a ****ing useless thread
Flying Spaghettiemonster	Posted - 2010.06.30 21:46:00 - [92] Originally by: Soma Khan what a ****ing useless thread Bandwagon's full, please catch another.
Chesty McJubblies	Posted - 2010.07.01 12:09:00 - [93] "...were in Iceland".
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.07.04 07:59:00 - [94] Originally by: Squat Hardpeck So much for being professional. Mynxee is normally cool-headed, so one would assume that there's a lot happening behind the scenes in order for a spate of posts on forums to drive her to this kind of rage post. As anyone who has worked with/around children will know, the catch with trying to negotiate with a two year old is that you start negotiating like a two year old. Getting Mynxee riled up like this indicates to me that Sokratesz is behaving like a two year old. Reading the minutes of CSM meetings will enlighten people further. Mynxee's rage-post was very informative, as it sheds light on what she perceives as being important: CSM working as a team and contributing positively to the future of the game. It also shows us that Mynxee is human, and not a suit-wearing robot, just in case there was any doubt in the matter. Two thumbs up from me, Mynxee. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Mynxee	Posted - 2010.07.04 21:29:00 - [95] Originally by: Mara Rinn Mynxee is normally cool-headed, so one would assume that there's a lot happening behind the scenes in order for a spate of posts on forums to drive her to this kind of rage post. ...Getting Mynxee riled up like this indicates to me that Sokratesz is behaving like a two year old. Reading the minutes of CSM meetings will enlighten people further. Mynxee's rage-post was very informative, as it sheds light on what she perceives as being important: CSM working as a team and contributing positively to the future of the game. It also shows us that Mynxee is human, and not a suit-wearing robot, just in case there was any doubt in the matter. hugs Mara tbh, Sok is a smart and pleasant guy in RL (sorry to out you, Sok!). I was rattled and disappointed by the dichotomy between that and his (imo) unnecessary mention of "spoongate" which was clearly going to wind up the trolls. So I raged. Probably in conjunction with a hot flash....errr, I mean POWER SURGE. That accomplished nothing but feeding the trolls more and certainly didn't reflect the kind of image I hope players get of CSM, which is inspired in part by the behavior of its delegates. But hey, as you said, I'm only human. And you know...I'm better now. The men in the white coats said so. Life In Low Sec
Necrozoopedophile	Posted - 2010.07.05 03:32:00 - [96] Edited by: Necrozoopedophile on 05/07/2010 03:36:03
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.05 09:57:00 - [97] Originally by: Necrozoopedophile Edited by: Necrozoopedophile on 05/07/2010 03:43:10 Your name is awesome especially since it's a technically correct term. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
yieasase susivirate	Posted - 2010.07.07 18:09:00 - [98] how much for the spoon`? serious how much?
momtherussiansbadtouchme	Posted - 2010.07.07 19:46:00 - [99] Man and I thought my name was good... Also I'm pro sokratesz, heshe is for shield buffs working like armor buffs!
Ran Khanon Amarr Vengeance Innovations	Posted - 2010.07.07 22:10:00 - [100] Edited by: Ran Khanon on 07/07/2010 22:10:06 Was it this spoon? Help us to make parrots game related today!
Qui Shon	Posted - 2010.07.07 22:14:00 - [101] Edited by: Qui Shon on 07/07/2010 22:15:56 Originally by: Mynxee Time + sleep = perspective. Thus...rage-post modified with some measure of rational thought. I liked the first version much better. Dealt with the OP on his level, it did. Edit: Also, Necrozoo-something's link is golden
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.08 05:08:00 - [102] Originally by: Qui Shon I liked the first version much better. Dealt with the OP on his level, it did. Lol, you still think I was the problem here? Funny. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Myz Toyou APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2010.07.08 10:30:00 - [103] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Btw. the race is on to see who of Ankh and Sok manages to get themselves removed from the CSM prematurely. Odds are looking equal.[/quote Ankh won, Sok failed as allways
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.08 10:31:00 - [104] Originally by: Myz Toyou Originally by: Jowen Datloran Btw. the race is on to see who of Ankh and Sok manages to get themselves removed from the CSM prematurely. Odds are looking equal. Ankh won, Sok failed as allways MYZ!!!! á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Eve Industrial Corp	Posted - 2010.07.08 11:32:00 - [105] Between pettiness and childish behaviour and CCP's unwillingness to allow the CSM to influence their resource allocation in bringing about what the CSM calls for - the whole experiment is a joke. Enjoy the trips to Iceland. Enjoy the forum and site updating. Enjoy the fact that you belong to an elite membership of eve players. Until CCP promises, and carries out those promises, to ear-mark resources to fulfil the requests the CSM lobbies for, isn't it a waste of time and energy better spent elsewhere. The producers of Eve has their own agenda, which of course if fair enough, but to be so intractable is counter-productive to the entire reason the CSM programme was established for. View The Eve Industrial Organiser Site
Persepoli	Posted - 2010.07.08 12:38:00 - [106] All this proves how much of a joke CSM is. It's of no benefit to the eve community, is a waste of everyone's time and effort and is quite frankly, unrepresentative swill served up to the player base as some sort of salve. And I dare anyone to name one productive game change that resulted from any of the CSM's? Free trips, booze and quietly replaced titans notwithstanding
Turdilious	Posted - 2010.07.08 13:18:00 - [107] The CSM is a joke.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2010.07.08 15:07:00 - [108] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Qui Shon I liked the first version much better. Dealt with the OP on his level, it did. Lol, you still think I was the problem here? Funny. Yes, one of them anyway. It's not an "either or" type situation, i.e. whatever Ankh did doesn't affect judgment on your actions. The rage post would perhaps have helped you understand, while the edited post would probably not cause people like you to reflect on their conduct.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.08 15:26:00 - [109] Edited by: Sokratesz on 08/07/2010 15:25:44 Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Qui Shon I liked the first version much better. Dealt with the OP on his level, it did. Lol, you still think I was the problem here? Funny. Yes, one of them anyway. It's not an "either or" type situation, i.e. whatever Ankh did doesn't affect judgment on your actions. The rage post would perhaps have helped you understand, while the edited post would probably not cause people like you to reflect on their conduct. Maybe there wasn't much wrong with my conduct after all, and maybe therefore it doesn't need awhole lot of reflecting on? á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2010.07.08 21:58:00 - [110] Originally by: Sokratesz Maybe there wasn't much wrong with my conduct after all, and maybe therefore it doesn't need awhole lot of reflecting on? Thank you for proving my point, that you're too simple to learn from Mynxee's corrected post, and that indeed you could only, possibly, if you're not too thick even for that, have learned something from the ragepost.
JC Anderson Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.09 08:14:00 - [111] Originally by: Abrazzar This video is definitely related to this thread. Ok that made my day... Night.. Oh hell I'm not even sure what time it is anymore.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.09 08:19:00 - [112] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Sokratesz Maybe there wasn't much wrong with my conduct after all, and maybe therefore it doesn't need awhole lot of reflecting on? Thank you for proving my point, that you're too simple to learn from Mynxee's corrected post, and that indeed you could only, possibly, if you're not too thick even for that, have learned something from the ragepost. I'm still curious what it actually is about my behaviour that you dislike. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.07.09 09:44:00 - [113] I, too, dislike everything there is about Sokratesz. ____________ HYDRA Reloaded - 2nd place at Alliance Tournament 8 EVE-Arena is awesome!
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.09 10:24:00 - [114] Originally by: Amarr Supremacist I, too, dislike everything there is about Sokratesz. In other news, the baby frog in my aquarium just ate a fly, he looked super happy about it too ^^ á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.09 10:38:00 - [115] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Sokratesz Maybe there wasn't much wrong with my conduct after all, and maybe therefore it doesn't need awhole lot of reflecting on? Thank you for proving my point, that you're too simple to learn from Mynxee's corrected post, and that indeed you could only, possibly, if you're not too thick even for that, have learned something from the ragepost. I'm still curious what it actually is about my behaviour that you dislike. You dont like Ankh and you're a PvPer* -> you're worse than the devil. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2010.07.09 18:09:00 - [116] Originally by: Sokratesz I'm still curious what it actually is about my behaviour that you dislike. Yeah, damn PvP'er, damn all of them to hell. Mynx explained it for you in her ragepoast, what more explanation do you need?
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.09 18:58:00 - [117] Originally by: Qui Shon Mynx explained it for you in her ragepoast, what more explanation do you need? Except, of course, if the CSM had stood behind Sok (who was only speaking the truth anyways) and simply said that they'd gotten a lot done but that throwing things in a fit of pique was beyond the pale, there would have been less CSM infighting and tehy'd have stood together against the bad behavior of a member who was removed from the CSM anyways. Ah well.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2010.07.10 08:28:00 - [118] Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Originally by: Qui Shon Mynx explained it for you in her ragepoast, what more explanation do you need? Except, of course, if the CSM had stood behind Sok (who was only speaking the truth anyways) and simply said that they'd gotten a lot done but that throwing things in a fit of pique was beyond the pale, there would have been less CSM infighting and tehy'd have stood together against the bad behavior of a member who was removed from the CSM anyways. Ah well. Lol, "only speaking the truth". Is that like "Tellin it like I sees it"? Or "Just Sayin"? Sok dealt with the issue like a kid (read:teen) would, CSM "standing behind" that would make them all look immature.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 08:38:00 - [119] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Originally by: Qui Shon Mynx explained it for you in her ragepoast, what more explanation do you need? Except, of course, if the CSM had stood behind Sok (who was only speaking the truth anyways) and simply said that they'd gotten a lot done but that throwing things in a fit of pique was beyond the pale, there would have been less CSM infighting and tehy'd have stood together against the bad behavior of a member who was removed from the CSM anyways. Ah well. Lol, "only speaking the truth". Is that like "Tellin it like I sees it"? Or "Just Sayin"? Sok dealt with the issue like a kid (read:teen) would, CSM "standing behind" that would make them all look immature. Actually no, if you're talking about spoongate, I told it exactly as it happened, totally objectively. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.10 10:53:00 - [120] Edited by: Libin Herobi on 10/07/2010 10:53:42 Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Originally by: Qui Shon Mynx explained it for you in her ragepoast, what more explanation do you need? Except, of course, if the CSM had stood behind Sok (who was only speaking the truth anyways) and simply said that they'd gotten a lot done but that throwing things in a fit of pique was beyond the pale, there would have been less CSM infighting and tehy'd have stood together against the bad behavior of a member who was removed from the CSM anyways. Ah well. Lol, "only speaking the truth". Is that like "Tellin it like I sees it"? Or "Just Sayin"? Sok dealt with the issue like a kid (read:teen) would, CSM "standing behind" that would make them all look immature. Actually no, if you're talking about spoongate, I told it exactly as it happened, totally objectively. The question here might be why was it mentioned at all? Oh sure it was the truth, that's what happened. But I'm sure a lot of other things happened as well (eg someone barfed, farted, sneezed, coughed, dropped a fork during dinner, made an inappropriate comment/joke, etc) so why tell about spoongate and not about some of the other things that had no impact on the results as well.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:36:00 - [121] Edited by: Sokratesz on 10/07/2010 11:36:06 Originally by: Libin Herobi But I'm sure a lot of other things happened as well (eg someone barfed, farted, sneezed, coughed, dropped a fork during dinner, made an inappropriate comment/joke, etc) so why tell about spoongate and not about some of the other things that had no impact on the results as well. Some people can't handle the truth - but that's not my problem. This was one of the remarkable things she did while in Iceland and only one of two that I found worth mentioning because I didn't want to hurt her reputation too much. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.10 14:28:00 - [122] Edited by: Libin Herobi on 10/07/2010 14:27:58 Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 10/07/2010 11:36:06 Originally by: Libin Herobi But I'm sure a lot of other things happened as well (eg someone barfed, farted, sneezed, coughed, dropped a fork during dinner, made an inappropriate comment/joke, etc) so why tell about spoongate and not about some of the other things that had no impact on the results as well. Some people can't handle the truth - but that's not my problem. This was one of the remarkable things she did while in Iceland and only one of two that I found worth mentioning because I didn't want to hurt her reputation too much. You only wanted to hurt her reputation a little?
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 14:35:00 - [123] Originally by: Libin Herobi You only wanted to hurt her reputation a little? Given her attitude and behaviour in the past I felt like it was appropriate to report on this matter which involved another long-time CSM member (Meissa). But you dont have to agree with it, that's ok with me, I appreciate your rage. But please tell me, why should incidents like this be swept under the rug? It's not like she had a lot of credit to begin with. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.10 17:23:00 - [124] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Libin Herobi You only wanted to hurt her reputation a little? Given her attitude and behaviour in the past I felt like it was appropriate to report on this matter which involved another long-time CSM member (Meissa). But you dont have to agree with it, that's ok with me, I appreciate your rage. But please tell me, why should incidents like this be swept under the rug? It's not like she had a lot of credit to begin with. There is no rage, only curiosity. Reasons to ignore such incidents could be to avoid giving the impression to be a group that cannot work together without petty drama ("Ankh did that..."). One might even argue that this information is only suitable to create conflict but nothing more. It's not like this would have removed her from the CSM or made CCP ignore her or void her vote. No, this would only have negative effects on how the CSM is perceived by others, namely players. I find it rather amazing that such trivia are given attention. This is something that can be dealt with within the CSM. So this has only increased the impression of the CSM being a group of people that kill time together, unable to overcome normal differences/difficulties to work towards a goal. That's not saying throwing objects is okay. But throwing mud is not okay either.
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.10 18:32:00 - [125] Originally by: Libin Herobi Reasons to ignore such incidents could be to avoid giving the impression to be a group that cannot work together without petty drama ("Ankh did that..."). Think about that for a bit. Seriously, see if what you said makes sense. If we should ignore facts that show that someone in a group cannot work with the other members without causing petty drama, are we really "avoiding giving [a mistaken] impression", or are we actually covering up the facts because of how we fear they'll be received? Originally by: Libin Herobi One might even argue that this information is only suitable to create conflict but nothing more. It's not like this would have removed her from the CSM or made CCP ignore her or void her vote. No, this would only have negative effects on how the CSM is perceived by others, namely players. 1. One might argue that, but it'd be a silly argument. Showing how a (ex)CSM member behaved is part of transparency and keeping the players updated on how their elected representatives are working. If every attempt at transparency is met with claims that it's "only going to create conflict", obviously the answer then is to cover everything up for PR reasons so as to keep control of information of public perception. This is a rather Bad Thing to do. 2. Your argument that only things which should be reported are those that would "remove someone from CSM or get CCP to ignore them or void their votes" is an absurdity. Part of accountability and transparency is keeping tabs on how elected reps are behaving and what's going on, and keeping that on the record. Imagine if, instead of being removed for violating the NDA, Ank has stuck around through this entire term. What would the difference be if at the very end of the CSM some people said "Oh yeah, and she was difficult to work with through the process!" versus having a paper trail of documentation through the months showing what actually happened? By your argument, we shouldn't even be shown the minutes and raw text of a meeting. 3. Anybody who judges an entire group by the behavior of one of their members is operating on a cognitive level so low as to discredit themselves immediately. Such sloppy thinking is the basis of every bit of prejudice, bigotry and racism through history. It's just dumb. Anybody who looks at a group of several people and sees one behaving badly, and then says "that entire group is bad!" is the kind of a person whose time can most profitably be spent counting grains of sand on a beach and leaving the grownups alone. Originally by: Libin Herobi So this has only increased the impression of the CSM being a group of people that kill time together, unable to overcome normal differences/difficulties to work towards a goal. Again, this makes no sense. If we have, say, 100 people who form the Galactic Senate (or whatever). 99 of them routinely work together and get stuff done, and one throws temper tantrums whenever they don't have a vote go their way... and they also throw things at other people they don't like. Does his mean that the entire Galactic Senate cannot function, or that they're actually doing pretty well and one rogue loon can't get with the program? This is not rocket science. Google "fallacy of composition" and "fallacy of division". They're not called fallacies because they're awesome arguments. Honestly, this Ank-WhiteKnight meme has to die already. "You can't criticize Ank or show how she's behaving, or the entire CSM is all for naught!" is just silly. She's gone already, people can stop WK'ing for her.
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.11 06:50:00 - [126] Edited by: Libin Herobi on 11/07/2010 06:50:15 Originally by: FinnAgain Zero 1. One might argue that, but it'd be a silly argument. Showing how a (ex)CSM member behaved is part of transparency and keeping the players updated on how their elected representatives are working. If every attempt at transparency is met with claims that it's "only going to create conflict", obviously the answer then is to cover everything up for PR reasons so as to keep control of information of public perception. This is a rather Bad Thing to do. Well I do think public perception is one of the tasks and responsibilities of the CSM. I don't know what's good about being so keen to discredit a member of the CSM at the first opportunity. The "I tell the full unadorned truth and what will be will be" is really only stubborn and simple minded. And that's not me saying they should lie. Originally by: FinnAgain Zero 2. Your argument that only things which should be reported are those that would "remove someone from CSM or get CCP to ignore them or void their votes" is an absurdity. Part of accountability and transparency is keeping tabs on how elected reps are behaving and what's going on, and keeping that on the record. Imagine if, instead of being removed for violating the NDA, Ank has stuck around through this entire term. What would the difference be if at the very end of the CSM some people said "Oh yeah, and she was difficult to work with through the process!" versus having a paper trail of documentation through the months showing what actually happened? By your argument, we shouldn't even be shown the minutes and raw text of a meeting. Actually that's not what I said. I never said only things that will give someone the boot should be reported. I merely said "spoongate" was only throwing mud. Not that mud-throwing is all I want. This is called "Denying the antecedent", I think. The point I was trying to make is: there's no need to blame someone at the first opportunity. If this is a constant behaviour there will be enough occasions to make it public, to back it up with evidence, to make it sound justified. Originally by: FinnAgain Zero 3. Anybody who judges an entire group by the behavior of one of their members is operating on a cognitive level so low as to discredit themselves immediately. Such sloppy thinking is the basis of every bit of prejudice, bigotry and racism through history. It's just dumb. Anybody who looks at a group of several people and sees one behaving badly, and then says "that entire group is bad!" is the kind of a person whose time can most profitably be spent counting grains of sand on a beach and leaving the grownups alone. I have no idea why you bring racism and bigotry into that. Are you trying to imply that "People who do B use A for that, so someone using A must be doing B"? Because that is called "Affirming the Consequent" And I never said the "entire group is bad". Read carefully! I said this will increase the impression of the CSM being a waste of time. You seriously think "spoongate" will not affect how people think about the CSM as a whole? "Larkonisgate" is still one of the things mentioned in articles about the NDA breach and he's not in CSM any more. Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Originally by: Libin Herobi So this has only increased the impression of the CSM being a group of people that kill time together, unable to overcome normal differences/difficulties to work towards a goal. Again, this makes no sense. If we have, say, 100 people who form the Galactic Senate (or whatever). 99 of them routinely work together and get stuff done, and one throws temper tantrums whenever they don't have a vote go their way... and they also throw things at other people they don't like. Does his mean that the entire Galactic Senate cannot function, or that they're actually doing pretty well and one rogue loon can't get with the program? But they aren't 100 people. How would you like your argument if we change that number to 2, because that's just as wrong.
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.11 07:01:00 - [127] Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Honestly, this Ank-WhiteKnight meme has to die already. "You can't criticize Ank or show how she's behaving, or the entire CSM is all for naught!" is just silly. She's gone already, people can stop WK'ing for her. And I'm repeating this because you appear to have missed it: Originally by: Libin Herobin That's not saying throwing objects is okay. But throwing mud is not okay either. I'm not trying to say Ankh was right in throwing stuff around. I'm trying to say Sokratesz wasn't right by using this for his personal agenda against another CSM member.
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.11 07:38:00 - [128] Originally by: Libin Herobi The "I tell the full unadorned truth and what will be will be" is really only stubborn and simple minded. And that's not me saying they should lie. Yes, it is. Your argument is that people shouldn't tell the truth and/or should cover it up if the truth reflect poorly on one CSM member. Originally by: Libin Herobi I never said only things that will give someone the boot should be reported. Yes, you did indeed say that; anything that's true but that you don't like (for whatever reason) but that isn't earth-shattering is just 'throwing mud' and shouldn't be reported. At least maybe until it's been repeated a few times. Why that, then, is no longer 'throwing mud' is anybody's guess. Originally by: Libin Herobi I have no idea why you bring racism and bigotry into that. So you didn't google the fallacies, eh? Originally by: Libin Herobi You seriously think "spoongate" will not affect how people think about the CSM as a whole? I've mentioned the fallacies of composition and division (although you refuse to google them), they don't suddenly become non-****ed in this context. Originally by:** Libin Herobi But they aren't 100 people. Ah, I see you've trained Point Evasion V. Whether they're 2 people or 2000 people, judging other people by one person's actions is, yep, tarded again.
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.11 09:48:00 - [129] Hey, that's fine. I have no intentions of continuing this if you just keep riding your "I know what you think and do and whatever you write I still know you meant something else"
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.11 13:51:00 - [130] Originally by: Libin Herobi "I know what you think and do and whatever you write I still know you meant something else" Actually, as I've quoted and directly responded to your arguments which you then try to alter, it's much more a case that you're trying to change what you've said after the fact. That's okay, I suppose, but it's better to just retract your errors and move on. Ah well.

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