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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 15 post(s)
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 163	Posted - 2012.07.19 14:32:00 - [1] - Quote oh well it was a good run while it lasted ~otec forever~
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 163	Posted - 2012.07.19 14:34:00 - [2] - Quote mercuryyy wrote: If the numbers in the blog are real ssssssssssssh shut uuuuuuuuuuuuuup
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 163	Posted - 2012.07.19 15:29:00 - [3] - Quote man am i glad all our technetium stocks were in jita and the batsignal went out in time
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 163	Posted - 2012.07.19 15:52:00 - [4] - Quote Retmas wrote: too damn cute that cobalt replaces tech, and is primarily found in the regions the CFC just roflstomped. we stomp a lot of regions
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 163	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:01:00 - [5] - Quote Fiberton wrote: Wait so head of CSM would not give his Alliance an edge by accepting certain persons who use to work for said maker of game into into his alliance for full future intels ? Of course he would not he is TOP legit guy. yeah we got the inside scoop on this weeks ago you know, when soundwave posted it on these forums
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 163	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:01:00 - [6] - Quote granted so did everyone else but details details
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 163	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:28:00 - [7] - Quote Tippia wrote: EvilweaselSA wrote: yeah we got the inside scoop on this weeks ago you know, when soundwave posted it on these forums HmmGÇª was that before or after he said it to everyone present (and watching the stream) at fanfest? before given his post it was really obvious what was going to happen so we threw preparations for the nerf into high gear (as long as the nerf was ringmining it was a winter-at-the-earliest thing but once they said alchemize everything, well you can do that in an afternoon)
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 163	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:29:00 - [8] - Quote Hakaru Ishiwara wrote: EvilweaselSA wrote: Fiberton wrote: Wait so head of CSM would not give his Alliance an edge by accepting certain persons who use to work for said maker of game into into his alliance for full future intels ? Of course he would not he is TOP legit guy. yeah we got the inside scoop on this weeks ago you know, when soundwaffe posted it on the goon high-command forums Fixed that for you. our high command, including me, does luv2post on these forums but they're not really our high-command forums given how much navigator likes deleting our posts :smith:
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 163	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:30:00 - [9] - Quote Elise Randolph wrote: A fantastically written devblog. The dream is to temper the Tech prices and spawn conflict in lowsec like Alchemy 1.0. Here's hoping~ there's too much cobalt in the game to spawn conflict over it in two months you will have no trouble finding a free cobalt moon what fights will be over is systems with a station and a high amount of cobalt moons, since you can then do alchemy en masse and get economics of scale to make it worth doing
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 165	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:36:00 - [10] - Quote Veshta Yoshida wrote: Three years too late if you ask me. Should have been explored in earnest the second PI was released .. speaking of which .. why not add some of the intermediate reaction products to specific planets to buffer supply even further? It would fit in ever so nicely with player owned POCO's and could be used as very effective way to boost the elephant in the room (ie. Low-sec) with the said specific planets mainly existing in that most wanting yet perpetually ignored area of Eve. Combine that with a nerf to supers when operating in Empire and you have the makings of epic sub-capital brawls over resources in low as well as null and give fledgling alliances/corps, who are unwilling to accept the ball'n'chain of null slavery, the chance to make their mark (read: low-sec Empires). Looking forward to steps 2-10 in the war against the great ISK printing machine known as moon-goo (you get extra points for making grown men cry in public!). to answer for ccp "because that's a lot of work so it would wait for a content patch"

EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 165	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:41:00 - [11] - Quote let me translate the devblog for you all: "the entire t2 production system sucks and we hate it and want to rip it out and redo it root and branch. that would take a lot of time, so we are introducing alchemy to stem what those awful goons are doing to you in the meantime"
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 165	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:41:00 - [12] - Quote Hustomte wrote: Tippia wrote: In T1 terms, it would be like if you could create Isogen by banging Veldspar and Scordite together really hard, rather than go out and mine Omber. In the end, you just end up with Isogen, and it makes no difference when you build ships from it. Fozz, can we noobs in highsec PLEASE have alchemy like this! ... Cause right now Caldari space doesn't have access to isogen and zydrine minerals and I am tired of being a low-sec chew-toy to just make T1 frigs. #AlchemyAllTheThings let me introduce you to a feature of eve called "buying things on the market"
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 165	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:43:00 - [13] - Quote Dilly Dallyer2 wrote: This will help a little but does nothing about the remaining static source of isk from Tech that is totaly located in the north. The price of tech will be capped as With Prom and Dysp from the first batch of Alchemy but the prices will remain high. Out of interest, as you said you have been playing EVE you several years you wouldn't happen to be in the coalition that just concered some of the regions with most of the Cobalt in game would you. Nothing personal but we're all human and in general humans are the least honest species on the plannet. In the past the big alliances that are friendly with devs, or have devs in them seem to have had crystal balls and been able to gain from updates that the masses (who by the way pay for the game) are not privy to. there is far too much cobalt in the game to cartel it, and controlling all tech + all cobalt would require us to control half of 0.0 and half of lowsec which is a little absurd
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 169	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:55:00 - [14] - Quote Hustomte wrote: EvilweaselSA wrote: let me introduce you to a feature of eve called "buying things on the market" EvilweaselSA = "Buy Tech on the market as well while you're at it, this alchemy thing is silly" ... I see you missed the point of the Devblog and everything else. boy howdy you're bad at this game you will still buy tech (well, plat tech) off the market because any efficent production chain relies on division of labor as a ship manufacturer and miner you would mine what's best for you to mine, sell it for isk, then buy the other minerals you need anything else is you not understanding what opportunity cost is and being the stereotypical "if i mine it is free" pubbie we all laugh at
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 169	Posted - 2012.07.19 16:58:00 - [15] - Quote seriously we all always laugh at "if i mine it its free" pubbies but its so rare to actually run into one it's always a hoot
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 169	Posted - 2012.07.19 17:02:00 - [16] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Look at the angry mob of poors in this thread. Guess what this change means to all of you: You'll still be poor because you don't have the foresight, drive, or motivation to go after the things that stop you from being poor. We'll be backstroking through our 9 trillion isk that we've made off our moons while you all try to figure out whats the next best thing to do (that we'll already be well on our way to controlling). no you don't get it we're all doomed doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 171	Posted - 2012.07.19 17:19:00 - [17] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Fiberton wrote: Hrm you think no one who use to work for CCP is in the CFC ? haha.. Dude you know better but regardless least they are playing eve now. No I have no idea who they are. I am only speculating of course. Just look at all these bitter tears, honestly you can't even tell we burnt his house down just a week or two ago. he would have so much cobalt otherwise!
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 173	Posted - 2012.07.19 17:37:00 - [18] - Quote Ra Death wrote: I applaud changes to tech. I'm sure someone else has pointed the below out, but... I don't want to resort to having to run 10 large POSes with 2 x simple reactors each, running PT with alchemy reaction to have the same output as a POS medium POS running a PT reaction with tech+plat. and i want a pony
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 175	Posted - 2012.07.19 17:43:00 - [19] - Quote you can't siege moons in w-space effectively, adding moon minerals to them would be moronic when we thought they were going to make that mistake we had a whole crew of people ready to go in and seize all of the p/d moons (the valuble ones at the time) and we'd probably still hold them
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 176	Posted - 2012.07.19 18:00:00 - [20] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: nah i am not poor (well maybe in relation to you but i got my own sc and such that i did 10/10 complexes for so i am middle class?) you're poor just not wretchedly poor

EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 179	Posted - 2012.07.19 18:31:00 - [21] - Quote also i think the en guarde dude, due to being extremely bad at eve, isn't factoring in insurance when we lose scads of drakes its not a very big loss
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 183	Posted - 2012.07.19 19:23:00 - [22] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: Lord Zim wrote: Are you really so angry you can't even spell properly? spelling is overrated... you got the just of it... its not just your inability to spell that makes your word salad incomprehensible
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 183	Posted - 2012.07.19 19:25:00 - [23] - Quote i must say, i will miss when I could tell people that I controlled more money in my space job than I earned in my real job (even at reduced "buy video card and sell" rates instead of plex rates) we were up to ~$180k per year
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 187	Posted - 2012.07.19 19:35:00 - [24] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: yes i agree its hard to read when your eyes are filled with tears of rage... would you like my used tissue? you're not really very good at posting, it's not really worth getting a read-only trading barbs with you because i'll just get boring crap like this that's not even good at being insulting
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 187	Posted - 2012.07.19 19:53:00 - [25] - Quote Aine Ni wrote: Just wanted to say : !!! LOVE THIS IDEA !!! I'm so looking forward to this. Hard to find a new system worse then the current :) you say that now, but i have this feeling you'll think back on this post in a year and go "oh how naive i was"
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 187	Posted - 2012.07.19 19:57:00 - [26] - Quote Fiberton wrote: Young man you fail to realize my corp was ecstatic to live in NPC space. Have a great day. Fly safe Gentlemen. whoa haven't seen an unironic "we didn't want that space anyway" in years
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 187	Posted - 2012.07.19 20:02:00 - [27] - Quote Istan Mahwi wrote: Tippia wrote: Katrina Bekers wrote: Cobalt already skyrocketed. Jita is dry. Time to change the reaction components, CCP... Please, please, please! This! It would be hilarious! PREASE!!!! i want to laughhhhhhhhh! anyone owning cobalt already got owned
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 187	Posted - 2012.07.19 20:13:00 - [28] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: i think its sad RA pretty much invented Goons and now Goons are all mean like bob and being mean to poor old RA... i still am fond of the old Red Swarm Federation... RA is just a name, everyone we liked from there runs their own alliance or is in goonswarm itself. Sad though.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 187	Posted - 2012.07.19 21:09:00 - [29] - Quote Nalha Saldana wrote: Kosmoto Gothwen wrote: First off glad this is all getting looked at. I wanted to show some real numbers to the profitability of this: Cobalt 100 x 24 x 7 = 16,800 = approx 128,100,000isk/wk Platinum 100 x 24 x 7 = 16,800 = approx 106,476,552isk/wk 128,100,000isk + 106,476,552isk = 234,576,522isk/wk Produces Platinum Technite which refines into Platinum Technite 10/hr x 24hrs x 7days = 1,680units = approx 176,566,303.20isk/wk Platinum 95/hr x 24hrs x 7days = 15,960 = approx 101,184,644.40isk/wk Output value per wk = 277,750,947.60isk Approx Large Tower fuel cost = 147,840,000isk/wk Approx Medium Tower fuel cost = 73,920,000isk/wk Profits Large Tower = 277,750,947.60 - 147,840,000 = 129,910,947.60isk/wk Medium Tower = 277,750,947.60 - 147,840,000 = 203,830,947.60isk/wk So the above isk values are based on current Jita avg sell prices via eve-central. (Not worth nit picking isk prices when dealing with this size of numbers, and values fluctuate). Also I'm assuming your doing this on a single tower, it's doable but to get both resources on a single moon isn't likely, so you probably end up with multiple POS's or shipping one of the resources in, either way it would cut into the profit margin. As you can see at currently inflated market values it would be marginally profitable to do this reaction but if PlatTech went down it wouldn't be worth doing any more. Even at these numbers the risk is moderately high considering you have a billion isk POS set up (including fuel) to do this. You have to properly compare it Platinum technite income 176,566,303isk/wk Selling (or not buying) cobalt + tech 5,323,827 + 128,100,000 = 133,423,827isk/wk Actual reaction profit 176,566,303 - 133,423,827 = 43,142,476isk/wk There are way better reactions out there if thats what youre looking for. Sure if you own a cobalt moon go for it but its not exactly something to go to war for. remember this guy is using figures that have been massively ****** with due to speculation
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 187	Posted - 2012.07.19 21:14:00 - [30] - Quote stop using 8k as the price for cobalt you idiots

EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 203	Posted - 2012.07.20 12:21:00 - [31] - Quote DanMck wrote: tech is overpowered, without a doubt. why you thought to change the prom and dyspro set up to a moon mineral only located in the north ? only you CCP can answer. i can field that one the person who did the dominion rebalance didn't understand how a bottlenecking system works and made tech valuable completely accidentally, when trying to make low-tier moons moderately valuble
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 203	Posted - 2012.07.20 12:23:00 - [32] - Quote Dilly Dallyer2 wrote: One totaly unrelated game mechanic that could also break the Tech monopoly would be to make standings based on player actions, not just a click of a button. Too much of the game is blue to each other. Indiscretions done to an Alliance should not be so easily forgotten. as a sperglord, it is my contention that the ability of people to make friends is unfair and must be nerfed
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 203	Posted - 2012.07.20 12:38:00 - [33] - Quote goonswarm fought its way up from a penniless alliance living in syndicate off ratting taxes during the tech era if you're left behind and poor its because you're bad
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 203	Posted - 2012.07.20 13:13:00 - [34] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Louis deGuerre wrote: If this ensure that prices drop so I can afford to PVP again in something other than T1 frigs I love it. But I just don't get it. It is such a strange solution. Why not use your PI system (flaws and all) to produce vital moon minerals instead ? That would ensure that minerals are distributed more evenly over the galaxy, are dynamic resources, and give DUST bunnies something meaningful to fight over. This is the first step in our plan to revamp tech 2 production. Changes to how the minerals are obtained will be coming before we're done (although probably not from PI). if you try to make moon minerals move around and keep that scanning interface im kidnapping you and making you scan an entire region before letting you go
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 207	Posted - 2012.07.20 14:13:00 - [35] - Quote Random Majere wrote: Maybe they should just make it as easy as when you look at a planet resources in "planet view mode". No probing required. But dont make moon minerals move around. Just scatter it evenly across the galaxy and make it deplete/increase (on the same moon) the same way as normal resources work on planets. Just a though... There's a much easier way: revert to pre-dominion moons. P/D are spread throughout the galaxy. Can't cartel it, everyone has some - but there's rich regions and poor regions.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 216	Posted - 2012.07.21 00:52:00 - [36] - Quote you're valuing cobalt, a worthless mineral found in much greater abundance than people willing to run alchemy towers, at market price
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 216	Posted - 2012.07.21 00:53:00 - [37] - Quote sorry: not market price, "speculative bubble price"
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 220	Posted - 2012.07.23 20:53:00 - [38] - Quote Inspiration wrote: Every moon i double checked years ago was correct, its a good start. As for hostile alliance space, just scan the mining towers they have, ignore all else and you get the good picture rather quick, all hard effort will be done for you by your enemy. dotlan is "mostly" correct in that its junk moons are generally accurate while full of lies when it comes to highends i would know, i had several regions scanned and compared to tech moon lists on dotlan: dotlan, unsuprisingly, was highly inaccurate when it came to tech moons it is generally accurate if it says a moon is a tech moon, but the fact it says a moon isn't one isn't terribly reliable
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 220	Posted - 2012.07.23 21:03:00 - [39] - Quote also while "just scan all mined moons" is generally a good way to spot moons that the current owner lied about, some get lost when regions change hands. it is therefore not a reliable way to scan a region, though it makes an excellent first start
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 221	Posted - 2012.07.24 16:28:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hello everyone! It's been good to see the reaction to these changes, especially as the feedback has fit very well with the models we had coming into this blog. After evaluating the market reactions and the estimates from experienced players we now feel comfortable accelerating our planned implementation these reactions. We're going to have them start at 10/1 ratios and re-evaluate from there. What tech price are you shooting for with these changes?

EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 221	Posted - 2012.07.24 16:32:00 - [41] - Quote Basically, I'm concerned that you relied on Akita T's analysis because it was seriously flawed in several ways: 1)Akita T assumed you'd buy cobalt from the market. This is not the case. You'd mine it, and consider it effectively free. 2)Akita T assumed current prices (as people were madly speculating on them) were accurate. They weren't: platinum was being speculated on (for no good reason) and cobalt was as well (being wildly overinflated). It also assumed the current inflated fuel prices, which will go down since CCP effectively made ganking miners in highsec impossible in 1.2 as well. This wasn't a mistake of Akita T's though since that info wasn't available yet.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 223	Posted - 2012.07.24 16:51:00 - [42] - Quote Assume platinum of 2,000, and 15,000 fuel blocks (down once isotopes crash). That's a healthy margin on the fuel blocks at pre-hulkageddon isotope prices. Your costs for 1 hour of reactions are: Old version: Platinum x5 10,000 Fuelx16: 240,000 Total: 250,000 250,000 = 10 plat technite, plat technite worth 25k at the floor, tech floored at 50k New version: Platinum x10 20,000 Fuelx16: 240,000 Total: 260,000 260,000 = 20 plat technite, plat technite worth 13k at the floor, tech floored at 26k. Add in profit as you see fit: calculate what you think running a tower is worth per month (given how common cobalt is, 100m per tower seems reasonable), divide by 720 (hours in a month). That's 138,888 per hour Your costs for 1 hour of reactions are: Old version: Platinum x5 10,000 Fuelx16: 240,000 Profit: 138,888 Total: 388,888. Round to 390,000 for nice numbers 390,000 = 10 plat technite, plat technite worth 39k in reality, tech worth 78k in reality. New version: Platinum x10 20,000 Fuelx16: 240,000 Profit: 138,888 Total: 398,888. Round to 400,000 400,000 = 20 plat technite, plat technite worth 20k in reality, tech worth 40k in reality.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 223	Posted - 2012.07.24 16:53:00 - [43] - Quote Lucas Quaan wrote: EvilweaselSA wrote: 1)Akita T assumed you'd buy cobalt from the market. This is not the case. You'd mine it, and consider it effectively free. You are going to have to value it at something. Anyone clever enough to run reactions without losing money knows how to do this and, really, so do you. No, you don't. Cobalt is worthless. This is a case where things you mine yourself are, quite literally, free: you swap a silo for a moon harvester and the input cost drops to zero. The market for cobalt is idiots selling to idiots: it's not a real market and will have no effect on tech prices.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 226	Posted - 2012.07.24 16:59:00 - [44] - Quote Lucas Quaan wrote: EvilweaselSA wrote: The market for cobalt is idiots selling to idiots: it's not a real market and should have no effect on tech prices. This is what you really are saying, but since the market is there we cannot discount it entirely. No, it will not have any effect on tech prices. I don't think you understand just how much cobalt there is. The market will be dominated by the people who correctly value the cobalt as worthless, and the market of idiots selling to idiots will not affect the actual market price of plat tech.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 226	Posted - 2012.07.24 17:53:00 - [45] - Quote Ohh Yeah wrote: So what spikes in price? What am I supposed to buy right now? OTEC brand unalchemized technetium.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 231	Posted - 2012.07.24 18:24:00 - [46] - Quote yeah the mining barge buffs are basically legalizing empire mining bots again
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 231	Posted - 2012.07.24 19:20:00 - [47] - Quote Airto TLA wrote: The moon minerals always have a value, even if their net extraction cost is negative, some people do not have cotrol of all the moons necessary under the iron fist of a dictator to get to the end product, Doesn't matter. There's so much cobalt that the alchemy profit will be set by the people doing it with free cobalt.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 231	Posted - 2012.07.24 20:04:00 - [48] - Quote Jeremy Soikutsu wrote: Dramaticus wrote: and effectively neutering suicide ganking of miners in highsec. Oh shut the **** up. There will still be plenty of untanked and Hulk miners in high, max yield is still the name of the game to a lot of people. Maybe you have to use a couple more Cats or a Tornado, but you'll still come out ahead. afk miners are stupidly well tanked by default
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 233	Posted - 2012.07.25 13:36:00 - [49] - Quote Sigras wrote: This just in, good arguments include rebuttal "this is nothing but wild speculation from someone who knows nothing and should be given the same weight as a hobo's ramblings" is a rebuttal
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 250	Posted - 2012.07.27 01:37:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: But the game doesn't need 180k tech to have conflict. Tech is now only 5x the value of the second best moon instead of 11x. It's 2x. I don't mean to be rude but if you think it's 5x you did the math wrong. Akita T's numbers were wrong - mine, that I posted earlier in this thread, are correct. It's only 80-90k right now because most people can't do math and we haven't killed the buys since we're hoping for more suckers.

EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 250	Posted - 2012.07.27 01:45:00 - [51] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Powers Sa wrote: So you're shooting for 80k per unit prices? One of the goals up until the beginning of phase two is for Tech to continue being the best moon in the game by a large margin. It's not. I'm completely serious when I say I expect tech to be 40k as a result of this. If you don't believe my math, the correct way to calculate it is listed here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1690733#post1690733 Come up with your own plat, fuel, profit, and cobalt costs, and you can calculate tech prices. I believe my numbers are accurate, and I believe the current cobalt prices are largely due to highsec people not really realizing just how common cobalt is. I've got our 60k+ moon db: you will never, ever, run out of people doing alchemy with "free" cobalt. Hell, pull the internal numbers if you don't believe me. Alchemy will be done by finding multi-cobalt systems (4+) and just slapping a medium on each cobalt moon and running them all (insert platinum, take out unrefined plat tech, refine for platinum to feed back in). Moon reacting scales well: four towers in one system is barely more work than one.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 250	Posted - 2012.07.27 01:49:00 - [52] - Quote Bloodpetal wrote: So go shoot all the Cobalt and platinum moons. Let us assume these are mined by smalls. Let us assume they are sieged by enough dreads to one-cycle them, and that's 20. You're looking at about 85 man-years of work.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 250	Posted - 2012.07.27 01:58:00 - [53] - Quote Bloodpetal wrote: I guess attacking a 9 Trillion ISK a week bloc that has no interest in generating conflict isn't worth driving conflict, hence your "conflict drivers" are a load of crap. also in case it wasn't clear enough you were bad at math 400 tech moons is a high estimate let us assume tech is 200k that's 5.7 trillion from tech moons per month: all tech moons, everywhere (you're asserting a income of ~36t isk per month) so you were only off by a factor of 6 or so if our "bloc" owned every tech moon in the game
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 250	Posted - 2012.07.27 02:04:00 - [54] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Only this wont help them since we've all amassed such wealth and a working infrastructure with Jabbers and join comms and shared intel, that nothing the developers do short of purposely disbanding the OTEC alliances will make s difference for years to come. Money isn't what makes alliances unassailable, it's organization. PL and Goonswarm have built organizations so resilient they absorb massive sov and monetary losses without a hitch.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 254	Posted - 2012.07.27 13:16:00 - [55] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: The cost of Cobalt only becomes 0 ISK when the reaction is taking place in the POS where the cobalt is being harvested, at which point the cost of the Cobalt becomes the fuel cost of running the moon harvester. Wrong. The moon harvester seemlessly replaces the silo that would otherwise feed cobalt (exact same grid/cpu). There are so many cobalt moons that every alchemy tower will be on one. The opportunity cost is zero.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 254	Posted - 2012.07.27 13:18:00 - [56] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: If Cobalt really is worth 0, why aren't you harvesting the other moon material that the moon offers instead? you've never run a moon mining pos, have you the vast majority of moons (overwhelming majority, really) have nothing that is profitable to mine+export
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 255	Posted - 2012.07.27 14:37:00 - [57] - Quote Hammer Legion Member wrote: sorry if thats off-topic, but doesnt give that kind of information CSM Members (and their friends, eventually) an advantage over other players in order of speculation etc? The sort of speculation you can do with this is really, really obvious to anyone who is paying attention. Someone on the CSM tried that in the leadup to Dominion, and got booted off because "hmm they just bought scads of neodymium I WONDER IF THEY'RE MISUSING THEIR ACCESS" (at the time it seemed more likely that neo would be the bottleneck since you actually had to run the numbers carefully to realize it was tech).
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 266	Posted - 2012.07.27 22:18:00 - [58] - Quote I've taken the time to put together a price calculator. It's available here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqcVTxvQXiL3dHJXYXcwejAtemZ2MlVxQkhWSnVfRGc Regrettably, you'll have to make a copy of it to work: if I let it be freely edited then it'll get vandalized. When you make a copy, every green square gives you a drop-down menu. Select the proper value for fuel, input costs, and the profit people will demand (you'll find that due to alchemy not affecting the platinum you use, it has no effect on tech prices. Estimates that included it previously forgot to subtract the price of platinum from the final cost of the plat technite). Then, you can select any arbitrary alchemy level, from 1 (1 cobalt = 1 tech) to 20 (20 cobalt = 1 tech) It will then spit out an estimated technetium price. This should allow Fozzie to fine-tune the tech price to exactly his desired range once he has accurate estimates - he simply plugs in the estimates, then adjusts alchemy until the end price is what he's looking for. I'm posting this here both for CCP Fozzie to use, and for everyone else to check the math and verify it's all correct.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 266	Posted - 2012.07.27 22:19:00 - [59] - Quote If you want to calculate what fuel blocks are going to be worth given various isotope prices, I have modified Quern's pos block calculator to do so simply: https://docs.google.com/a/goonswarm.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqcVTxvQXiL3dEZLNkFiMW14TVNDY2RPRm1KSGJSTUE#gid=1 Likewise, make a copy and select an estimated isotope price from the green square, and it will spit out a fuel block price for you to use in the above sheet.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 268	Posted - 2012.07.27 22:34:00 - [60] - Quote Werst Dendenahzees wrote: Be aware that other pubbies will push that estimate down by reacting cobalt for near-zero profit. The sheet allows you to take that into account as well! You just lower the profits expected from an alchemy tower.

EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 268	Posted - 2012.07.27 23:25:00 - [61] - Quote Why Cobalt Will Be Worth Zero I have repeatedly pointed out that the price of cobalt, for the purposes of tech alchemy, should be treated as zero. I realized I should elaborate on why. Bottlenecking There is also a cap on the number of moons that can be profitably alchemized. Tech is profitable because it is a bottleneck: all of it is used up before any other moon mineral is. If too much tech is alchemized, it ceases being a bottleneck, and the next rarest mineral (relative to use) becomes the bottleneck. In our case, that's neodymium (which is rising on the theory that tech will be over-nerfed making it either the sole bottleneck, or tied with tech). As a result, of the thousands of cobalt moons, only a fraction can be alchemized before the bottleneck loosens enough it's no longer profitable. That means that there is a hard cap on cobalt moons that can be used for alchemy: if that number is exceeded, alchemy can only operate at a loss. Why People Will Mine Cobalt As you may know, the fitting requirements for a silo and a moon miner are exactly the same. This means that any reaction that uses base minerals fits on a pos and uses the same fuel regardless of if one, both, or none of its components are mined on that moon. In other words, you incur absolutely no extra costs to mine a mineral rather than import it (while saving the cost of purchasing it and importing it). This means in every situation it is feasible to do so, you would rather mine your minerals than import them - even if someone will give them to you in jita for free. There are only two situations where you will not: 1)You can't get that moon. If I'm making nanotransistors, I'd like to mine the tech directly. But since I can't get a tech moon, i simply must buy the tech: it is not an option to mine tech myself. 2)You can get the moon, but it would be inconvenient. If I'm making nanotransistors, I can't mine the tech, but maybe I can mine the platinum. But if there's platinum moons available, but none in my system, I may want to buy the platinum rather than deal with towers outside my home system. Effort costs isk, after all. But Things You Mine ArenGÇÖt Free Oppurtunity cost is what you could have made, if you did something else. So if youGÇÖre mining ordinary ore, the cost of that ore (to you) is the isk you could have made otherwise (say, by ratting). And if you use those minerals yourself, the cost of those minerals (to you) is the money you could have made if youGÇÖd sold them on the market instead. Both of those mean if youGÇÖre in a hulk and mining ore, the ore isnGÇÖt free: it costs you what you gave up. For Cobalt, that means you are comparing alchemizing cobalt, to mining it and selling it. To mine the cobalt, you need a small tower, and a small towerGÇÖs worth of fuel. Since there is virtually infinite amounts of cobalt in the game, the price of cobalt generally equals the exact cost of mining it: in other words you donGÇÖt make any money doing it. People who mine cobalt have a tower doing other things (ratting, labs) and use spare grid and cpu to get GÇ£freeGÇ¥ cobalt (and other GÇÿworthlessGÇÖ minerals). When alchemizing cobalt on a moon instead of mining it, you are GÇ£giving upGÇ¥ the chance to put a small tower there and mine it for export. Since that makes no profit the opportunity cost of alchemizing cobalt isGÇªzero. So mining it yourself is free. Conclusion There are thousands of Cobalt moons. Not only will we never run out, we will never run out of convenient ones: there is so much cobalt that there are plenty of systems with many cobalt moons and a station. There are probably more of these GÇÿconvenientGÇÖ moons than can be profitably alchemized, probably by a factor of two or more. As a result, no one will buy cobalt off the market. It will not make sense at any price: even if itGÇÖs free, you have to ship it and keep silos full. YouGÇÖll just mine it instead. As a result, the effective price of cobalt for the purposes of setting the price of technetium is zero.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 272	Posted - 2012.07.28 05:56:00 - [62] - Quote Sigras wrote: #2 theyre assuming 100 million a month profit - again i suppose this is understandable, but when I was in the north, i saw moons that could make 300 million a month go towerless because "its not worth our time in logistics" ? This is because you can hit the alchemy limit with just mining systems with 4+ cobalt moons and a station. Nobody will tower the lone cobalt moon in Venal. This circles back to the "you can only alchemize so many moons" point.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 272	Posted - 2012.07.28 06:03:00 - [63] - Quote Sigras wrote: #1 theyre assuming a 15 fuel block per hour price cost for the tower - this means a medium tower in 0.0 space with sov. This is perfectly understandable, but what theyre saying is that there are so many cobalt moons in 0.0 that they can and will hold down the market. This i seriously doubt, simply because any sov holding alliance large enough to control a significant portion of moons isnt going to screw with it without a significant profit which brings me to my second point Moons worth only 100m (or 200m, or 300m) per month are never run on an alliance level, they're delegated to members to run if they want. But there will be plenty of people in alliances in cobalt space willing to run these.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 272	Posted - 2012.07.28 06:08:00 - [64] - Quote Sigras wrote: true, but to extend this claim to our current conversation and continue using the numbers we put forth earlier, you'd have to also agree that these people are selling the cobalt from 0.0 to get the fuel discount that was mentioned, and that these people wouldnt mind losing another 2000 CPU from their tower for the reactor and the extra silo needed for this chain. Both of these I would doubt mining cobalt instead of buying it adds zero CPU to a tower and requires one less silo (the one the harvester replaces)
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 277	Posted - 2012.07.28 17:36:00 - [65] - Quote Sigras wrote: really? ive been in Jita a long time, and Ive never found anything selling below cost (except for the stupid POS module/PI debacle but thats not due to market factors) Its my opinion that the people who are running POSs are generally more intelligent than that. I have explained, in detail, why the correct way to value cobalt being mined is zero. Why don't you point to the part you're having trouble with or disagree with and we'll go from there.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 277	Posted - 2012.07.28 17:53:00 - [66] - Quote Sigras wrote: im not having trouble with that, my rebuttal was to the people who said that alchemy would be done with 0 profit. Im saying that nobody would do the alchemy on a tower for 0 profit, especially since that now means the tower cant be used for much else. which is not the case with just mining cobalt and dumping it into a silo. My contention is that the idiots who sell their products assuming the minerals they mine are not free are not (for the most part) running POSs Oh, you're correct that's wrong. Alchemy will definitely have profit unless there are just that many people who need a medium ratting tower they're just going to throw an alchemy lab on to cover costs. I can't imagine there are many of those people, though that's going to quickly become the standard way to throw up a ratting tower in cobalt regions.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 288	Posted - 2012.07.30 18:51:00 - [67] - Quote Sigras wrote: ummmm . . . alliance owned stations/outposts already give the brokers fees to the owning corp. We want the taxes, which are much larger.
EvilweaselSA GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 301	Posted - 2012.07.31 01:03:00 - [68] - Quote Kyle Myr wrote: Soldarius wrote: I was all like :sadpanda: when we were told to move to Period Basis. Then I looked at dotlan. Known Period Basis Moons. Sov Holders vOv Don't trust Dotlan's moon scan data. At best, it's incomplete. At worst, it's a fabrication. Those scans are likely accurate because when they were uploaded there'd have been no reason to lie.

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