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JASON W0RTHING
The Devolved
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Posted - 2010.07.05 05:52:00 -
[1]
Liang Nuren and Akita T are both upstanding members of our community and a regular posters in Missions and Complexes and Market Discussion, respectively. They are some of the most knowledgeable and helpful members of these forums.
However, I observe a ridiculous number of ill-informed posters get into arguments with them and other posters like them. They nearly always end up looking ridiculous, hideously ill-informed, or just plain stupid by the end of these debates. In order to prevent more posters from succumbing to one ore more of these fates I would like to petition you to think before starting an argument, so as to not waste their (and our) valuable time.
In all the MMOs I have played there have been players who fill a function similar to Liang and Akita. They are the knowledgeable ones, the veteran players who have years of experience as well as numbers, intelligence, and a well-burnished reputation on their side. Arcanaville, Auron, NuklaerVII, and many more all fill this crucial role. Arguing with these individuals is 99.99% of the time a completely fruitless exercise. They simply know more than you. Most of the time if they say you are wrong, you're wrong, end of story.
If you choose to argue with them you will be summarily trounced by numbers, in-depth descriptions of game mechanics, and intricate analysis of game balance. This was the case with Arcanaville's famous essay Enhancement Diversification and You and Auron's treatise Why Spellcaster Damage Can Never be Viable in PvP. While these individuals are happy to break down what they know and their thought process in coming to their conclusions for the community, it can be frustrating to have to do this EVERY DAY.
Now, I'm not suggesting that you never argue with people who appear to know more than you on the forums but you should take these steps first.
1. Familiarize yourself with the topical experts of your game. This will prevent you from accidentally tripping into an argument where your are almost certain to lose.
2. Don't argue about any issues that you do not have EXTENSIVE in game experience with. If you don't do missions don't get into debates about missions, if you don't PvP don't yammer on about nerfing this ship or that, same thing with markets, mining, plexing, and corporation management. This is pretty basic.
3. Have numbers on your side. This is a biggie, said community members are usually very happy to completely change their POV and admit they are completely wrong if presented with the correct evidence. Know your spreadsheets.
4. Be willing to admit you are wrong. If you know you are wrong don't continue arguing, just admit you are incorrect. Upstanding community members tend to be much more gracious if you are willing to admit that you made a mistake.
5. Discuss all differences of opinion civilly. Threats, insults, and attacks on a poster's RL character will almost always lead to losing the immediate debate and being diminished in eyes of the community as a whole.
Hopefully this will save a few people from embarrassment and lead to a few less 7 page threads on topics that have already been extensively covered.
I picked Liang and Akita because they are frequently dragged into arguments with idiots (lol). I know there are a significant amount of other players who fall into the "Experts with an active posting history", I'm not trying to leave you out.
Originally by: CCP Shadow What is thy bidd -- Wait. This thread, I have an irresistible urge to lock it for "being related to neither crime nor punishment."
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Messoroz
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Posted - 2010.07.05 05:55:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Messoroz on 05/07/2010 05:56:28 Edited by: Messoroz on 05/07/2010 05:55:44 Confirming trolling works in eve.
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Darkwolf
Caldari TOG Empire DRACONIAN COVENANT
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Posted - 2010.07.05 06:00:00 -
[3]
You assume that trolls and people who are ignorant enough to argue with people who have an idea will a) see your post, b) read it in spite of its length and c) think it applies to them.
I think your assumptions are flawed.
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Messoroz
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Posted - 2010.07.05 06:05:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Darkwolf You assume that trolls and people who are ignorant enough to argue with people who have an idea will a) see your post, b) read it in spite of its length and c) think it applies to them.
I think your assumptions are flawed.
That's why trolls invented tl;dr.
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Kushan
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2010.07.05 06:14:00 -
[5]
Originally by: JASON W0RTHING blah blah
I didn't read your post, but I disagree with it, and I think you smell.
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Cheesestick Charlie
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Posted - 2010.07.05 06:17:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Cheesestick Charlie on 05/07/2010 06:17:18
Originally by: JASON W0RTHING Liang ... knowledgeable and helpful
IMO, Liang is a well-informed troll, perhaps simply very stubborn.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2010.07.05 06:19:00 -
[7]
I have 17m isk. Can I help?
Originally by: CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
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Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.05 06:21:00 -
[8]
Jason, you do have valid points and all, but you're missing something. From what I can tell, you're expecting these concepts of "Logic" and "Common Sense" in this game of Internet Spaceships.
You should know better by now. _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.05 06:38:00 -
[9]
tl;dr version, use common sense and use logical arguments based on facts.
tl;dr response, this is the internet...
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.05 06:40:00 -
[10]
welcome to the internet, where half the people will say you are wrong no matter what you say.
Stop fighting with them because you probably are wrong.
Originally by: CCP Shadow Have you ever wished you could have prevented a train wreck before it actually happened? I need to stop this one before the craziness begins.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2010.07.05 06:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lance Fighter
welcome to the internet, where half the people will say you are wrong no matter what you say.
Stop fighting with them because you probably are wrong.
no u
Originally by: CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
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Paul Kane
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2010.07.05 07:25:00 -
[12]
Intresting article to read, relevant to subject matter at hand: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/the-anosognosics-dilemma-1/
tl;dr? "When people are incompetent in the strategies they adopt to achieve success and satisfaction, they suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it."
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.05 08:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cheesestick Charlie Edited by: Cheesestick Charlie on 05/07/2010 06:17:18
Originally by: JASON W0RTHING Liang ... knowledgeable and helpful
IMO, Liang is a well-informed troll, perhaps simply very stubborn.
If I were going to criticise Liang's posts I'd say that they're a little too black-and-white in their conclusions, and that Liang is a little too ready to dismiss a ship or build as "worthless" for being a few percent less effective when compared in all-level-5 EFT.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.07.05 08:31:00 -
[14]
Meh, I wouldn't say 99.99%, more like 95%, since and after a while you start to just give up trying to reason with some people, and lower the bar on explanations. Plus, we're also only human and as such make mistakes, especially about newer things (or things that changed when we weren't looking). I like to think I am able to admit when I'm wrong, but sometimes I need some pretty solid convincing first
So here's my list of "how NOT to look like a complete tool" (quite similar to those of the OP, in fact):
* if you are uncertain about something, do not state it as a fact, phrase it as a question instead (or maybe as an unverified opinion) * if you don't agree with something in particular, state why you think it's wrong, and back it up with either a counter-example, some math, or at least anecdotal evidence... if you have none of those, state that it sounds weird and ask for more details * if more than just one person says you're wrong, you might want to consider the fact you MIGHT very well BE wrong ; try to find out why that is before digging an even deeper hole
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr GK inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.05 08:43:00 -
[15]
My 900 posts in Features & Ideas doesn't make me a guru there yet?
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Alizandro Goderaski
Minmatar Haters Gonna Hate
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Posted - 2010.07.05 09:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx My 900 posts in Features & Ideas doesn't make me a guru there yet?
Saying "No, that's ****ing stupid" 900 times does not make you a features and ideas guru.
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Winters Chill
Amarr Shadow Legion. Talos Coalition
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Posted - 2010.07.05 09:33:00 -
[17]
The OP literally made me cringe.
*jibblie jibblie jibblie*
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb Focused Intentions
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Posted - 2010.07.05 09:41:00 -
[18]
Cool story bro.
This post actually made me sick a little. I hope to god you are trolling?
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.05 09:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx My 900 posts in Features & Ideas doesn't make me a guru there yet?
Pft, who reads that?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.07.05 10:08:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx My 900 posts in Features & Ideas doesn't make me a guru there yet?
Considering your usual responses, that only makes you a persistent troll. -------- All I want is a better mankind.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr GK inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.05 10:23:00 -
[21]
That's still a helluva lot more constructive than letting the thread go on
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1Ekrid1
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Posted - 2010.07.05 10:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: JASON W0RTHING Lol disregard this I made fail rant
a lot of your ideas are subverted with the use of alts. Mmm mmm. also, your view of "upstanding citizen" is another person's view of trolling vets. it all depends on what side of the fence you sit. people in the middle usually get splinters in their colon. want your average eve thread locked arbitrarily? call 1-900-applebabe. |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.07.05 11:03:00 -
[23]
Or you could just make a post that utterly offends their philosophy and purpose - they they answer they are easy targets.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Chopper Rollins
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.05 11:59:00 -
[24]
Such is the nature of this democracy-of-fools called the internet that dominance is nearly always the preserve of the obnoxious, the unbalanced and the neurotic. The real GOLD, the really valuable insights in forum threads, are mostly found in one-off comments by people who know but aren't tired out into cynicism yet. Eventually they get sick of explaining the same thing over and over and then fighting to defend the only point that's viable... OH WOW I TOOK THE OP SERIOUSLY
Well trolled, sir, common sense and reason indeed.
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Biirk
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Posted - 2010.07.05 13:55:00 -
[25]
Quote: Spellcaster Damage Can Never be Viable in PvP
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All Our Base Are Belong To Them |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2010.07.05 14:08:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ghoest they they answer they are easy targets.
what?
But for the record, I only changed my sig because I was annoying myself with the last one.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.07.05 14:22:00 -
[27]
I lol'ed.
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Nexus Kinnon
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.05 14:57:00 -
[28]
was not mentioned, am v upset
Originally by: Queue K'Umber It is unseemly when a player becomes a self-congratulatory poastaholic
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.07.05 15:17:00 -
[29]
Petitioned mod to delete thread for RoC violation see here. These sort of information should not be made public in the interest of forum lulz. |
Milla Jovobitch
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Posted - 2010.07.05 15:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx My 900 posts in Features & Ideas
There's a forum by that name?
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