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Miztli Tonahuac Microcredits	Posted - 2010.07.06 23:10:00 - [1] Why do 0.01iskers got so mad when someone undercuts by a large amount? They don't need to follow I'm not forcing them, so...
Lupalis Longtail	Posted - 2010.07.06 23:20:00 - [2] Everytime you undercut by more then 1 isk, a puppy dies.
mechtech SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.07.06 23:26:00 - [3] Originally by: Miztli Tonahuac Why do 0.01iskers got so mad when someone undercuts by a large amount? They don't need to follow I'm not forcing them, so... It's not that they're mad at you. Most people don't have giant stockpiles of items, just a few labs, 8 guns from an old ship, ect. They want these parts gone asap. Whether you undercut by .01 isk or 100,000 isk, they still want to get rid of their item asap, and they undercut you. If you want to crash a market temporarily, cutting the price by a bigger amount does wonders. Want to sell something? Just get in line with the .01 isk game or sell to buy orders IMO.
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.07.06 23:34:00 - [4] Originally by: mechtech Want to sell something? Just get in line with the .01 isk game or sell to buy orders IMO. I have absolutely no patience for .01 isk games. I don't enjoy them, so I don't play. Obviously it varies a ton by item, but if there is a spread of say... 10%, I'll just list for say... 6% over buy and walk away. Even if people chase me down, almost always the items I listed will sell within a few days. If I list them up where everyone is playing .01 games, they might never sell. Could I sell to buy orders? Sure, but why would I? That's handing away a 5.5% margin for free. My main goal is to spend the absolute minimum amount of time checking prices and tweaking them while still getting decent value for what I want to sell. Listing for well below the .01'ers and leaving it for a few days will almost always do that.
Grozen Caldari Titan Core New Eden Research.	Posted - 2010.07.06 23:57:00 - [5] if im getting out from a stock i need to get out fast i'm always making sure people who are selling after me lose a lot of money. knowledge is power
Tiberius Smacchus	Posted - 2010.07.07 02:20:00 - [6] Edited by: Tiberius Smacchus on 07/07/2010 02:23:11 If someone's selling something, they're probably going to sell it regardless of whether you undercut by .01 or 6-10-50-[lolmarketpvpchestbeat]%, because they've already taken the position. Moreso, if it's profitable for you to sell or buy it at any given price, it's almost certainly profitable for them to do so at that price as well. In short, they are frustrated because you are dumb, and that the pavement ricochet from your foot shot grazed them. I've personally never backed out of a trade until I was going to lose >300K ISK per jump I'd have to relocate the stock. The only traders you'll scare out of your market with unnecessarily large price cuts are the ones with an even poorer grasp on game theory than yourself. Keep it up, though, playing lazy and stupid makes you a hardcore market griefer so cool can I touch? edit: ^ agree with this guy, though. The exception is when your position is almost cleared and you want to kill the spread for future competitors.
Darthion Illys Amarr Tyrans d'Or Tyrans d'0r	Posted - 2010.07.07 02:32:00 - [7] There's one simple reason as to why making big undercuts is always dumb (or at least in 99.99% of the cases): - Someone, somewhere, will always undercut you. No matter how much you lower/raise your price. The reason other traders (the ones who usually have a clue about what they're doing) get annoyed by it, is because you're not just decreasing your own profit margins by ridiculous amounts, but due to the lemming effect of other equally stupid traders following you, you effectively decrease the profit margins for all traders for x amount of time. Your **** never sells faster, just because you make a bigger undercut.* *With the exception if you're trying to get bought out by another trader. In which case, most of the time, you could have just sold it to the buy orders.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2010.07.07 02:49:00 - [8] Originally by: Darthion Illys wrong Fixed it for you. There are always reasons to do it, off the top of my head: It would **** you off. I'd toss away a few billion just to do that. Of course the idea that the other person might have a reason other than one you can think of is simply outside your comfort zone. As a closing thought, here's another valid reason: it is called poisoning the well. Not to be confused with your version of it where slandering someone repeatedly as a means of discrediting them. In the Eve version of this warfare tactic, you deface the battlefield environment so that your opponent can make no gains. Unfortunately it can require you to make a similar sacrifice unless you've specifically prepared for such instances. There, now you've learned some new things: Why a dive down is reasonable and that you are incapable of original thought on your own. Have a nice day. Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame.
Darthion Illys Amarr Tyrans d'Or Tyrans d'0r	Posted - 2010.07.07 02:52:00 - [9] Looks like someone became butthurt. Not only are we seeing 0.01-tears, but MD-tears as well. The MD entertainment factor has seldom been higher.
Corrain	Posted - 2010.07.07 03:26:00 - [10] It's the "Mommy, make them let me win!" mentality. They want the privilege of jumping to the front of the line as the lowest seller without paying anything of consequence for it. If their advantage is being planted at the trade window for long periods of time doing nothing more than diddling pennies, you've taking away their advantage by underselling them meaningfully. Very upsetting to some. I've even seen some whine in the forums that they need to be allowed to underbid by 1000th of an ISK Let's say someone is selling the exact same item as you in the exact same station, and you beat their price by ANY margin. If their reaction is to become so emotionally distraught that they rush to the forum to publicly proclaim butthurt... yeah, they've been beaten badly. They don't understand that some traders and merchants are out to decisively win the market segment, not make their competitors comfy and give them every chance to make sales too. Despite tantrums from the penny-diddlers that a solid underbid only hurts the under-bidder (thou doth protest too much) , they usually move or dump their stock, never to return again. On the rare occasions someone can undersell me sustainably? They get my nod of respect. Wouldn't dream of trying to turn it into anything other than their well-earned victory. ( ) <- planet (not to scale) --EhonVonnre
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.07.07 04:52:00 - [11] Sure, if you make your income by buying and then selling then dropping the margin is bad. However, not everyone putting up buy/sell orders is a trader. I don't give a flip about trading. It bores the snot out of me, and I make better isk in less time with less stress in many other ways. My goal when buying/selling is to get a solid price with the absolute minimum of effort. If there's a reasonable buy order I'll sell to it. Usually there isn't, and I'll put a sell order at a spot I'm confident it will sell and never look back. If I update an order and it doesn't net me (on avg) 3 mil per update, I just wasted my time for no reason. All the lemming traders can chase me down, but the price will correct back up within a few days and then they get less reward for more effort than I expended.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2010.07.07 12:18:00 - [12] Originally by: Darthion Illys stuff Bad enough that you were misogynistic in the other thread but your homophobia is showing through as well. Please, just because your right hand is not talking you doesn't mean you can't use your left to get laid. Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame.
Darthion Illys Amarr Tyrans d'Or Tyrans d'0r	Posted - 2010.07.07 14:45:00 - [13] When everything else fails, emo-rage by petitioning posts which expose your tears. It's still just as much of an entertainment factor as before.
Onyth Had Investments	Posted - 2010.07.07 15:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Darthion Illys - Someone, somewhere, will always undercut you. No matter how much you lower/raise your price. Apart from the bold part, people will undercut you no matter what you drop in jita, or in other hubs on most items. So yes if your goal is to make PROFIT then there is, in these places, little to no reason to do this. But as Shar pointed out, if you have different goals there are reasons wich make hubs even more usefull for big price dropping than slower moving markets with fewer lemmings :p
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2010.07.07 15:06:00 - [15] Originally by: Vilgan Mazran Sure, if you make your income by buying and then selling then dropping the margin is bad. However, not everyone putting up buy/sell orders is a trader. [... ...] My goal when buying/selling is to get a solid price with the absolute minimum of effort. This I believe, with only anecdotal evidence, is the case with most of the Eve players. I know that this is also very true for me on a wide number of products I have handled. If it is not one of my "focus" products, I really don't care too much about making the most maximum returns if I can move it faster/easier. Selling to standing buy orders, however, is always a sucker's bet imho. Dark Shakiri said it best, "I don't have to make a profit on each unit I sell. I just have to sell enough units to cover buying the entire lot. Any leftover from that is the profit." Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame.

CCP Navigator C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.07 15:15:00 - [16] Ok, thread has been cleaned of trolling/off topic posts and replies. Please stay on topic. Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online

Tiberius Smacchus	Posted - 2010.07.07 17:09:00 - [17] Originally by: Vilgan Mazran My goal when buying/selling is to get a solid price with the absolute minimum of effort. This is the case I'm assuming we're discussing here. I'm going to ignore the corner cases which keep coming into the discussion as tangential chest-beating when we are discussing strictly bidding strategies in a market you intend to participate in for the long run. In this case, large price cuts are almost certainly not an optimal strategy assuming all players are rational and have perfect information. Your motivation is the same as your competitors at any price. This logic holds regardless of which spread you are trading on: the manufacturing spread, the bid spread, regional spreads, and etc. If you shoot yourself in the foot on buys of the product or its components your profit (aka, motivation) at any given sell price for the final product is lower and if you shoot yourself in the foot on sells your profit (aka, motivation) at any given buy price is lower. You cannot demotivate the competition by playing less rationally than them because profit is the only motivation which determines the score. You must acquire the goods somehow and this has a cost which defines your spread regardless of whether or not you feel that you "bought them to sell them". Again, there are some short run strategies in which a large cut of the spread is optimal but "to ** [my competitors off]" is not one of them. Originally by:** Shar Tegral Selling to standing buy orders, however, is always a sucker's bet imho. Nope. Wrong again. When the volume of a buy order is greater than the volume you can move in the time before the sell price in a market undergoing adjustment is likely to pass said buy price it is optimal to sell to buy. This is actually a component of some short run strategies which you were just presumably chestbeating about your knowledge of. It really doesn't matter how you guys excuse it: to **** off your competitors, because you are lazy, or because Mars is in retrograde and you don't like aggressively trading during a red energy phase; you are still playing less optimally than you could and this is what annoys people who are not lazy or hopelessly dumb.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2010.07.07 17:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Tiberius Smacchus you are still playing less optimally than you could and this is what annoys people who are not lazy or hopelessly dumb. This is the problem with talking about the matter: Always some jackass to come in stating his way is the best way, other ways are some {insert ad hominem}. I could say you are a moron for being so closed minded but see, as is your statements, it is unhelpful and inflammatory. So let me just close it with this: I agree to disagree with you sir. You are just disagreeable. Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame.
Marshiro	Posted - 2010.07.07 17:45:00 - [19] If you undercut by so much that it'd make sense to place a buy order at, I'll just buy you out. The only time I'm ever worried about a undercut is in a bear market where there is visible serious downward pressure and I have stock to release. But then again, bear markets suck, what can you say?
menacemyth	Posted - 2010.07.07 18:04:00 - [20] It always kills me when people undercut by large amounts. Here's why: The market price always drops faster than it raises. If the average sell is at 3 million and undercutting wars start and drop the price to 1.5 million, even if all those sell orders are bought up it will take longer for the price to rise back to 3 million than it did to drop. So sometimes the prices can and do drop just because people want their isk first, and not because there's more supply than demand. That being said, when this happens, it usually means it's more profitable to produce the next item in the chain so even a drop in price can be an isk making opportunity.
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.07.07 18:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Tiberius Smacchus Your motivation is the same as your competitors at any price. This logic holds regardless of which spread you are trading on: the manufacturing spread, the bid spread, regional spreads, and etc. No, its not. My motivation is to to spend the absolute minimum time dealing with the market at any given time. That is certainly not the case with all of my competitors on a given product. ex: I produce 10 billion isk worth of one product. This takes me something like 10 minutes of effort (optimal) to 20 minutes of effort (more realistic). Buy order hovers around manufacture cost (and is thus of no interest) and lets say sell orders sit consistently 10% above that. I can either a: price it where my competitors are and spend 30-120 minutes of effort fighting a .01 isk game to liquidate it all or b: sell it at 8% above. Typically I'll do this in chunks, so 5 minutes of effort rather than 20 seconds (if I dumped it all on at once). So for 20 minutes + 5 minutes, I can make 800 million isk, or for 20 minutes + 60 minutes I can make 1 billion. The 20-50 or possibly more minutes of effort it takes for that extra 200 million is utterly not worth it to me. Some people will chase me down, but the reality of it is that most will stay at the 10% mark because 200 million DOES matter to them.
Tiberius Smacchus	Posted - 2010.07.07 18:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Tiberius Smacchus you are still playing less optimally than you could and this is what annoys people who are not lazy or hopelessly dumb. This is the problem with talking about the matter: Always some jackass to come in stating his way is the best way, other ways are some {insert ad hominem}. I could say you are a moron for being so closed minded but see, as is your statements, it is unhelpful and inflammatory. So let me just close it with this: I agree to disagree with you sir. You are just disagreeable. This shouldn't be considered a matter of opinion. We're discussing math and logic and that tends to lead to absolute results. Consider the following: There are two traders, and one item (waffles, I believe, are the standard here). To simplify things, we will treat it as a turn-based game where each trader is limited to one sell order, there is one purchase at the trader's price at the end of his turn, and each trader has a cost of 50. Strategy 1: A offers waffles for 100 and profits 50. B counter-offers 99 and profits 49. A: 50, B: 49 Strategy 2: A offers waffles for 100 and profits 50. B counters 90 and profits 40. A: 50, B: 40 It doesn't matter how obtuse you are, 40 is less than 49 and so 2 is a less optimal strategy than 1... Trying it again! B offers waffles for R0 (initial revenue), has a cost C, and after every interval I lowers his price by b the minimum increment. His profit for any given interval is a summation of (R0 - C) - (Ib) on I from 0 to the interval in which the spread is 0. Now let's say B lowers his price by (b+B). His profit for any given interval is a summation of (R0 - C) - (I(b+B)) on I from 0 to ... The difference between the two summations is BI, and for all B > 0 this is the amount his score has decreased. If BI is non-zero, he is performing less than optimally. What's your ... opinion... on this line of reasoning?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2010.07.07 18:38:00 - [23] Originally by: Tiberius Smacchus Unfortunately in this game the score isn't kept in terms of This is where the problem lies me thinks. You set "score" for yourself, not for others. Your set "score" is right for you maybe not for others. You even get to think other people's "scoring" is wrong and say it. It is when you can't refrain from saying dumb, ****, , etc., etc. when discussing other people that ruins any conversation. So in answer to your above long logical dissertation: TL;DR**. You're marginalized and I don't care to bother with anything you have to say. Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame.
Tiberius Smacchus	Posted - 2010.07.07 18:45:00 - [24] Originally by: Shar Tegral You set "score" for yourself, not for others. Your set "score" is right for you maybe not for others. You even get to think other people's "scoring" is wrong and say it. It is when you can't refrain from saying dumb, ****, , etc., etc. when discussing other people that ruins any conversation. So in answer to your above long logical dissertation: TL;DR**. You're marginalized and I don't care to bother with anything you have to say. Why are you selling things if your goal isn't to acquire ISK? You set the "score" by playing the game. If you play it poorly, the scoring doesn't change to accommodate you.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.07.07 18:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Tiberius Smacchus Why are you selling things if your goal isn't to acquire ISK? You set the "score" by playing the game. If you play it poorly, the scoring doesn't change to accommodate you. EVE has inbuilt scoring? I thought it was a sandbox.
Tiberius Smacchus	Posted - 2010.07.07 18:51:00 - [26] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Tiberius Smacchus Why are you selling things if your goal isn't to acquire ISK? You set the "score" by playing the game. If you play it poorly, the scoring doesn't change to accommodate you. EVE has inbuilt scoring? I thought it was a sandbox. Am I in Market Discussion or a ****ing special education classroom? Everything in the game can be acquired with ISK. Even SP. But, I'm done with this, you guys are being so dense about this that it's practically trolling.
Ovistein	Posted - 2010.07.07 19:38:00 - [27] Originally by: Tiberius Smacchus Why are you selling things if your goal isn't to acquire ISK? You set the "score" by playing the game. If you play it poorly, the scoring doesn't change to accommodate you. My "goal" is to maximise the enjoyment from the ú15 a month I spend on the game. That doesn't involve babysitting sell orders. I will happily sell at 5% below the lowest sell order so that my goods move and I don't need to touch the order again... because then I can increase my enjoyment by doing something I find more interesting... That is what too many traders in Eve fail to understand, and why the markets in Eve do not follow exactly what would happen in the real world.
Dramaticus GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.07 19:57:00 - [28] it'd be cheaper and maybe more enjoyable for you to just trash your stuff Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan
Ilarra	Posted - 2010.07.07 20:09:00 - [29] Edited by: Ilarra on 07/07/2010 20:09:30 Originally by: Ovistein Originally by: Tiberius Smacchus Why are you selling things if your goal isn't to acquire ISK? You set the "score" by playing the game. If you play it poorly, the scoring doesn't change to accommodate you. My "goal" is to maximise the enjoyment from the ú15 a month I spend on the game. That doesn't involve babysitting sell orders. I will happily sell at 5% below the lowest sell order so that my goods move and I don't need to touch the order again... because then I can increase my enjoyment by doing something I find more interesting... That is what too many traders in Eve fail to understand, and why the markets in Eve do not follow exactly what would happen in the real world. Except your goods aren't selling any faster when you undercut by 5% instead of .01. You're just going to get undercut by .01 by someone else, and then you've established a new low price. Unless you're selling at buy order prices, your goods aren't going to move any faster. Whether you undercut by .01 or 50, the only thing the matters is whether you are the lowest sell order price, not by how much. EVERYONE makes more money when you only undercut by .01.
WarDecEvading HaulerAlt War Dec Evading Alt Corp	Posted - 2010.07.07 20:15:00 - [30] Edited by: WarDecEvading HaulerAlt on 07/07/2010 20:16:48 Originally by: Ilarra Except your goods aren't selling any faster when you undercut by 5% instead of .01. You're just going to get undercut by .01 by someone else, and then you've established a new low price. Unless you're selling at buy order prices, your goods aren't going to move any faster. Whether you undercut by .01 or 50, the only thing the matters is whether you are the lowest sell order price, not by how much. EVERYONE makes more money when you only undercut by .01. I just dropped a particular T2 item by 18% and believe me they sold MUCH faster when everyone else started flipping them to buy orders at awful prices! If you prefer selling at the old price then I guess you'll just have to wait for them to go back up. lol

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