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What's the problem with rockets?

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Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.07.12 21:48:00 - [31] The problem with rockets is CCP cba to fix them because that would require that someone sits down and changes the numbers.
Eva Darkstar	Posted - 2010.07.12 23:49:00 - [32] Edited by: Eva Darkstar on 12/07/2010 23:51:52 I take it you mean with regards to PvP. As the rockets I was using the other day was destroying the weaker NPC frigates in 2 - 3 hits.
Killer Gandry Caldari TerraNovae	Posted - 2010.07.13 00:04:00 - [33] Problem is that if a ship isn't moving at all and you fire rockets at it all the pilot has to do is fart in his pods ambiotic fluid and he already speedtanks.
Daool	Posted - 2010.07.13 02:28:00 - [34] Ok, 1 last try because reality is I don't use rockets and likely never will but just trying to help those who seem concerned by them. "In Eve all weapon sizes are best at killing same size ships." Never seen that stated as a rule, only as a general guide (and then as USUALLY, not as ALL). I think your taking a general guidence and assuming its a hard rule in all cases. "Doesn't the rocket descriptions have all over them that it is a low DPS weapoin, and meant to be a suplement to a primary weapon system?"......."No..." Ah, yeah...."Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system." That same comment is all over all the rocket launchers or certainly most. "Fluff descriptions are a load of crap" Well, generally CCP have a history of listening to change requests that use the in game canon as a basis for the argument. Go directly against that background and it becomes almost impossible to get anything changed (not that its easy even then). "2. there are ships specifically bonused for rockets as their primary weapon" Well yeah, but that is the SHIPS primary - it can still be a supplemental weapon in the overall fight. Again, fighting CCPs own game descrioptions isn't going to make getting a change any easier. "I mean, I know they go ON frigates as mentioned, but that doesn't mena they are meant to be shot AT frigates."..." Really? You actually typed this and hit post without noticing how stupid it looked?" Mmmm, Ok. Plenty of real world weapons that are used on bigger targets than the launch platform, why would eve exclude this? Saying its easy, but why are you saying it other than a desire for it to be true? CCP has shown a history of not changing anything that isn't shown to be totally game imbalancing, and go against their own background stories etc. Maby the argument is that the faction frigates need to be primarily another weapon system for game balance or another argument taken as just 'I know rockets are meant to have sucky DPS , especialy at anything even remotely moving, but please increase it anyway" seems highly unlikely to get anywhere. Take it or leave it
Alara IonStorm	Posted - 2010.07.13 03:07:00 - [35] I don't use rockets and never will but I know better so RAGE POST!!!!
Croniac	Posted - 2010.07.13 03:10:00 - [36] I have the same problem with all weapons... You fire, and you get disconnected, then you're all like "WTF", and stuff and then come the tears of shame. Lather rinse and repeat.
Killer Gandry Caldari TerraNovae	Posted - 2010.07.14 04:20:00 - [37] Originally by: Daool Wall of useless text. Kestrel with all it's bonusses to rockets and missiles when fitted with rockets won't do any real damage versus another frigate which barely moves. Yes I can fit light missiles and forget about rockets, but then why don't the blasters on the gallente frigs suck just as much versus the rails? Basicly we have a weaponsystem that even with bonusses sucks harder than a "Love you longtime" girl. You want balancing, make our short range rapid fire weaponsystem as viable as your blasters. Or let's nerf blaster damage a lot more.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.07.14 05:04:00 - [38] Edited by: James Tritanius on 14/07/2010 05:04:48 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Daool Doesn't the rocket descriptions have all over them that it is a low DPS weapoin, and meant to be a suplement to a primary weapon system? No. In particular since they are the primary weapon system for a lot of ships, and since they are the short-range version of frigate-sized missiles in a game where the one consistency across all weapons platform is that lower range → higher DPS. Quote: As stated, with every other weapons system in the game, shorter range means more dps You guys do realize standard missiles are the long range counterparts of rockets, and rockets outdps standard missiles in every single situation (provided equivalent skills.)
Xiaodown Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.07.14 06:14:00 - [39] Originally by: James Tritanius Edited by: James Tritanius on 14/07/2010 05:04:48 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Daool Doesn't the rocket descriptions have all over them that it is a low DPS weapoin, and meant to be a suplement to a primary weapon system? No. In particular since they are the primary weapon system for a lot of ships, and since they are the short-range version of frigate-sized missiles in a game where the one consistency across all weapons platform is that lower range → higher DPS. Quote: As stated, with every other weapons system in the game, shorter range means more dps You guys do realize standard missiles are the long range counterparts of rockets, and rockets outdps standard missiles in every single situation (provided equivalent skills.) You should try logging in. Number one, I'm not conceding your point that rockets out DPS standard missiles, but it's moot. Number two, against any frigate doing >100m/s, rockets do exactly crap for damage. In EFT, it says this and that and blah blah, but the explosion velocity on a rocket is SO slow, that even against DOUBLE WEBBED frigates, the damage drops to around 10-20dps. --
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.07.14 06:57:00 - [40] Originally by: Xiaodown You should try logging in. Number one, I'm not conceding your point that rockets out DPS standard missiles, but it's moot. Number two, against any frigate doing >100m/s, rockets do exactly crap for damage. In EFT, it says this and that and blah blah, but the explosion velocity on a rocket is SO slow, that even against DOUBLE WEBBED frigates, the damage drops to around 10-20dps. Mathematics disagrees. I guess ignorance is bliss.
Thao Bodh	Posted - 2010.07.14 07:55:00 - [41] THE ROCKET FIX IS A LIE
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.07.14 08:03:00 - [42] Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: Xiaodown You should try logging in. Number one, I'm not conceding your point that rockets out DPS standard missiles, but it's moot. Number two, against any frigate doing >100m/s, rockets do exactly crap for damage. In EFT, it says this and that and blah blah, but the explosion velocity on a rocket is SO slow, that even against DOUBLE WEBBED frigates, the damage drops to around 10-20dps. Mathematics disagrees. I guess ignorance is bliss. Have you ever fired a rocket against a moving target in EVE? .
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.07.14 10:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Daool "In Eve all weapon sizes are best at killing same size ships." Never seen that stated as a rule, only as a general guide (and then as USUALLY, not as ALL). I think your taking a general guidence and assuming its a hard rule in all cases. It's very clearly stated in the stats of the weapons. So yes, all weapon sizes are best at killing same size ships. Except rockets, who are setup to kill targets of BC-size with the HP of an unbonused light drone ù unfortunately, no such target exists in EVE. Quote: Well yeah, but that is the SHIPS primary - it can still be a supplemental weapon in the overall fight. By that logic, there are no primary weapons. All weapon systems are supplementary on one ship or another, and yet they are just right for the platform they're fitted on and against their intended targetsà so why can't rockets be like them? Quote: Mmmm, Ok. Plenty of real world weapons that are used on bigger targets than the launch platform, why would eve exclude this? Because real life is irrelevant; because that's not how the EVE weapons are designed; and because we already know how that would work: you'd fit a larger weapon on the smaller platform (cf. stealth bombers). Again, the weapon size matches the target size. Quote: Maby the argument is that the faction frigates need to be primarily another weapon system for game balance or another argument taken as just 'I know rockets are meant to have sucky DPS , especialy at anything even remotely moving, but please increase it anyway" seems highly unlikely to get anywhere. The problem with that line of thinking is that it essentially boils down to "remove rockets from the game" because it only shows that they have no purpose. The question then becomes: which is easier? Removing rockets and inventing a new weapon system with all the new graphical resources, the balancing, and the fiddling around with ever current rocket shipà or just fixing rockets? Originally by: James Tritanius You guys do realize standard missiles are the long range counterparts of rockets, and rockets outdps standard missiles in every single situation (provided equivalent skills.) àby such a tiny factor that it's not really worth-while, from rockets that have trouble catching up with many frigates and do any damage at all. In the end, there's no coming around the fact that rockets have half the explosion velocity of standards (which is a very very bad thing against a small and fast-moving target such asà sayà a frigate), and that trying to "fix" this by giving them half the explosion radius isn't enough because that benefit quickly caps out. But sure, if you want to argue that standards also need to be buffed, then go right aheadà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.07.14 15:16:00 - [44] Originally by: van Uber Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: Xiaodown You should try logging in. Number one, I'm not conceding your point that rockets out DPS standard missiles, but it's moot. Number two, against any frigate doing >100m/s, rockets do exactly crap for damage. In EFT, it says this and that and blah blah, but the explosion velocity on a rocket is SO slow, that even against DOUBLE WEBBED frigates, the damage drops to around 10-20dps. Mathematics disagrees. I guess ignorance is bliss. Have you ever fired a rocket against a moving target in EVE? I have. Have you ever even SEEN the missile damage formula?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.07.14 15:18:00 - [45] Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: van Uber Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: Xiaodown You should try logging in. Number one, I'm not conceding your point that rockets out DPS standard missiles, but it's moot. Number two, against any frigate doing >100m/s, rockets do exactly crap for damage. In EFT, it says this and that and blah blah, but the explosion velocity on a rocket is SO slow, that even against DOUBLE WEBBED frigates, the damage drops to around 10-20dps. Mathematics disagrees. I guess ignorance is bliss. Have you ever fired a rocket against a moving target in EVE? I have. Have you ever even SEEN the missile damage formula? I fly the vengence and I can safely say it puts down less damage than some of my badgers and iteron fits.
Auri Hella Downwind Trading Guild	Posted - 2010.07.14 15:23:00 - [46] The Vengeance works better if you fit it with blasters than with rockets. Or in fact any type of turret.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.07.14 15:24:00 - [47] Originally by: Auri Hella The Vengeance works better if you fit it with blasters than with rockets. Or in fact any type of turret. I fit autocannons, no cap and good tracking
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.07.14 15:34:00 - [48] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: James Tritanius You guys do realize standard missiles are the long range counterparts of rockets, and rockets outdps standard missiles in every single situation (provided equivalent skills.) àby such a tiny factor that it's not really worth-while, from rockets that have trouble catching up with many frigates and do any damage at all. Rockets consistently do 15% more dps than standard missiles in almost all practical situations. Almost 20% more dps in most situations. Facts: Rockets do full damage against scrammed and webbed MWD rifters going ~250m/s. Rockets do 76% of its dps against single webbed AB rifters going ~400m/s Rockets do full damage against all but a few cruisers that can AB to ~700m/s
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.07.14 15:37:00 - [49] Originally by: baltec1 I fly the vengence and I can safely say it puts down less damage than some of my badgers and iteron fits. Train target navigation prediction to 5, m8. Besides, my point was that rockets can put out a lot more dps than standard missiles regardless of the circumstances. I doubt your badgers use standard missiles.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.07.14 15:43:00 - [50] Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: baltec1 I fly the vengence and I can safely say it puts down less damage than some of my badgers and iteron fits. Train target navigation prediction to 5, m8. Besides, my point was that rockets can put out a lot more dps than standard missiles regardless of the circumstances. I doubt your badgers use standard missiles. Lasers or blasters for the most part. My beef is that I get better results from unbonused autocannons on the vengence than with bonused rockets. However I do have rockets trained up for when they finaly do get the fix they badly need.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.07.14 15:49:00 - [51] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: baltec1 I fly the vengence and I can safely say it puts down less damage than some of my badgers and iteron fits. Train target navigation prediction to 5, m8. Besides, my point was that rockets can put out a lot more dps than standard missiles regardless of the circumstances. I doubt your badgers use standard missiles. Lasers or blasters for the most part. My beef is that I get better results from unbonused autocannons on the vengence than with bonused rockets. However I do have rockets trained up for when they finaly do get the fix they badly need. As true as that may be, the problem is not because of the damage reduction. The problem is because of the base DPS.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.07.14 16:06:00 - [52] Originally by: James Tritanius Rockets consistently do 15% more dps than standard missiles in almost all practical situations. Almost 20% more dps in most situations. àwhich is far less than you'd expect from the higher-DPS/lower-range option. Quote: Rockets do full damage against scrammed and webbed MWD rifters going ~250m/s. No. It could be because you forget that if a Rifter is scrammed and webbed, it no longer matters that it has an MWD. Still, you're down to just under 93%, so it's closeà (Of course, standard missiles would do just over 93% under the same situation). Quote: Rockets do 76% of its dps against single webbed AB rifters going ~400m/s Comes up as 68% for me (compared to 73% for standards). Are you forgetting the damage reduction factor by any chance? Quote: Rockets do full damage against all but a few (failfit) cruisers that AB to ~700m/s They'd betterà Not that it's relevant since you're talking about an oversized target that can ignore the pitiful DPS for roughly a year or two. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.07.14 16:31:00 - [53] Originally by: Tippia àwhich is far less than you'd expect from the higher-DPS/lower-range option. Don't forget rockets use significantly less fitting resources. Quote: No. It could be because you forget that if a Rifter is scrammed and webbed, it no longer matters that it has an MWD. Still, you're down to just under 93%, so it's closeà (Of course, standard missiles would do just over 93% under the same situation). Scrammed and webbed AB rifters and scrammed and webbed MWD rifters have different speeds. I fail to see how you can get 93% damage though, perhaps you forgot to factor in the sig radius bloom of shield tank? (Or the speed reduction of armor tanks.) Quote: Comes up as 68% for me (compared to 73% for standards). Are you forgetting the damage reduction factor by any chance? I actually done calculations for shield & armor tanked rifters and took the average of that. Sig bloom & speed reduction make up for that 8% of damage difference.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.07.14 16:48:00 - [54] Edited by: Tippia on 14/07/2010 16:49:00 Originally by: James Tritanius Scrammed and webbed AB rifters and scrammed and webbed MWD rifters have different speeds. Yes, but you supplied the speeds, and I used them, and for the calculation in question, there is no AB to consider since you were quoting numbers for a "scrammed and webbed MWD rifter." Quote: I fail to see how you can get 93% damage though, perhaps you forgot to factor in the sig radius bloom of shield tank? (Or the speed reduction of armor tanks.) No, I just assumed that you provided numbers that could be used for a comparison ù if you want to throw in additional variables, then declare them as well and provide the numbers. Quote: I actually done calculations for shield & armor tanked rifters and took the average of that. So you're providing a completely artificial value that you won't actually see in-gameà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Killer Gandry Caldari TerraNovae	Posted - 2010.07.14 17:02:00 - [55] It boils down to one thing and one thing alone. Get a frig sized ship with the max bonusses to rockets and a full rocket and missile trained pilot in it and put it against a counterpart with short range guns and the rocket boat will loose time after time because the DPS sucks.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.07.14 17:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Killer Gandry It boils down to one thing and one thing alone. Get a frig sized ship with the max bonusses to rockets and a full rocket and missile trained pilot in it and put it against a counterpart with short range guns and the rocket boat will loose time after time because the DPS sucks. This. Anyone who has flown these ships for a while don't need explosion radius tables and damage statistics to know rockets just don't work.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.07.14 17:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Tippia Quote: I fail to see how you can get 93% damage though, perhaps you forgot to factor in the sig radius bloom of shield tank? (Or the speed reduction of armor tanks.) No, I just assumed that you provided numbers that could be used for a comparison ù if you want to throw in additional variables, then declare them as well and provide the numbers. But the calculations were for illustrative purposes. If you wanted to know what variables I assumed to come up with those numbers, you could have asked me. Originally by: Tippia Quote: I actually done calculations for shield & armor tanked rifters and took the average of that. So you're providing a completely artificial value that you won't actually see in-gameà I think you'll find my estimate to be more representative of in-game values than an untanked rifter. In either case, my original point is that you are incorrect in stating that rockets do less dps than standard missiles and you already conceded to this point. Therefore, let's leave it as is before derailing this entire thread further.
Sannye	Posted - 2010.07.14 21:21:00 - [58] James, arent you forgetting that none of the target navigation skills work on rockets, since they are unguided? Rockets are like torps and HAM's, they hit harder, but you cant use any finesse skills, like increasing explotion velocity or lowering the explotion radius. That's one of the resons (along with the insanly low expl. vel. that rockets are born with) that rockets do indeed suck
Spurty Caldari D00M.	Posted - 2010.07.14 22:12:00 - [59] 7~8 volleys of rockets all you need to kill a shuttle. Nothing wrong here clearly NAPS: forcing you to play 'their' game
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.14 23:07:00 - [60] The Hawk in this graph has 4 launchers with navy thorns and a BCU. Clearly there is nothing wrong here. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

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