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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.09 20:34:00 -
[1]
Just a quick status update about the Meeting Minutes:
2 July: CCP sent initial draft of the Minutes to CSM 4 July: CSM sent a substantially revised and expanded draft to CCP 9 July: CCP returned the draft with mostly minor edits
CSM is now collaborating to make final (very minor) edits (with one or two clarification questions) and will submit a "CSM approved to publish" version nlt Sunday. I believe that CCP intends to publish the Minutes as early as possible next week. With any luck, that will be on Monday.
Some people question why this process takes so much time. I will point out that it is a 28 page document, that 9 CSMs plus CCP are contributing feedback to make sure it is right, and we all have jobs and other RL obligations that prevent us from spending every waking moment on this particular task.
Life In Low Sec |
Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.07.09 20:42:00 -
[2]
Excellent service.
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Dariah Stardweller
Gallente Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.07.09 21:30:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Mynxee
Some people question why this process takes so much time. I will point out that it is a 28 page document, that 9 CSMs plus CCP are contributing feedback to make sure it is right, and we all have jobs and other RL obligations that prevent us from spending every waking moment on this particular task.
We understand that, but updates like this are realy useful. ppl don't mind waiting that much if they have an indication of when they are going to get what they want.
But ofcourse, you as CSM members know that already and will do your best to keep your public informed as much as possible
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Andrew Riviera
Caldari The First Church of the Azure Carrot The Dominion Empire
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Posted - 2010.07.09 22:01:00 -
[4]
Many thanks for the feedback. Few things irritate me as much as the impression of being ignored, and thus updates like this are much appreciated. Now if only we could dispel that impression with regards to Ankh...
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Borun Tal
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.09 22:22:00 -
[5]
Thanks for keeping the communication alive, Mynxee. :) |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.07.10 03:54:00 -
[6]
That's actually amazingly fast. Not so much because its 28 pages, but because you have to circulate it to so many people. Nice job csm.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2010.07.11 06:29:00 -
[7]
Thanks for the update. Looking forward to reading it and seeing how many of the 28 pages are CCP trying to justify Dominion has not horrible messed up everything it tried to do.
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Zemkhoff
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Posted - 2010.07.11 15:38:00 -
[8]
http://www.theonlinerant.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/dilbert-status-report.gif
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.11 17:38:00 -
[9]
Update in the OP, CSM edits to the Minutes are complete; ball is in CCP's court.
Life In Low Sec |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.11 17:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mynxee Update in the OP, CSM edits to the Minutes are complete; ball is in CCP's court.
Nice. <3 <3 Glad I voted for you and Sok. :)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
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Loi Shaini
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.07.12 06:53:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cearain That's actually amazingly fast. Not so much because its 28 pages, but because you have to circulate it to so many people. Nice job csm.
Fait accompli's usually are handled quickly
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Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2010.07.12 15:05:00 -
[12]
Minutes are now available http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2010/CSM_CCP_Meetings_23-25_06_2010.pdf
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.12 16:38:00 -
[13]
TL;DR = We are going to keep shoving our half finished and unneeded features down your throat for at least a year and a half longer before we even consider fixing all our broken poo poo and non-functional core gameplay.
Hope that helps.
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T'Amber
www.shipsofeve.com
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Posted - 2010.07.12 16:45:00 -
[14]
nice work team.
[SoE:at8] Win the 1st Publicly available Adrestia and Utu - rare ships
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Vauryndar Dalharil
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:05:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Edited by: Helicity Boson on 12/07/2010 16:53:47 TL;DR = We are going to keep shoving our half finished and unneeded features down your throat for at least a year and a half longer before we even consider fixing all our broken poo poo and non-functional core gameplay.
Hope that helps.
Edit: My hat is off to the CSM team for their hard hard work against these odds though. For this I salute you. o7
"Lag will always be an issue however EVE, but EVE is now, from a technical standpoint, in a better state than it has ever been."
If it weren't so sad, I'd laugh.
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Valtis Thermalion
Caldari Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:11:00 -
[16]
-It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features.
-CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.
This makes me sad.
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Sol Mahon
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:19:00 -
[17]
First time reading the CSM minutes, lost all faith in the entire process, CCP get the CSM to do more than the CSM get CCP to do, Didn't realise it worked the wrong way round.
The next 18 months of CCP's schedule are already accounted for before the CSM even gets to Iceland, and all of this time is CCP doing what "they" want to do... What's the point of the CSM except to give inside information to CCP? |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Helicity Boson Edited by: Helicity Boson on 12/07/2010 16:53:47 TL;DR = We are going to keep shoving our half finished and unneeded features down your throat for at least a year and a half longer before we even consider fixing all our broken poo poo and non-functional core gameplay.
Hope that helps.
Edit: My hat is off to the CSM team for their hard hard work against these odds though. For this I salute you. o7
"Lag will always be an issue however EVE, but EVE is now, from a technical standpoint, in a better state than it has ever been."
If it weren't so sad, I'd laugh.
Yeah. There were some positives in there, I mean some stuff that was good and encouraging, but what the ****, Oveur, this is supposed to be the game that you love. EVE is supposed to be the game that you guys created because it's what you wanted to play? What the **** are you thinking?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Cortante
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:38:00 -
[19]
As usual, the minutes show that the CSM did not present one issue to improve the game and rather presented a series of whines about the state of content. I feel bad for CCP having to listen to these people complain, complain and complain without presenting anything constructive.
Glad to see the minutes show that CCP is giving the due attention to the CSM that it deserves: Zero.
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Darveses
DAEDALUS X The Final Stand.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:40:00 -
[20]
Thanks for posting <3 ---
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:50:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cortante As usual, the minutes show that the CSM did not present one issue to improve the game and rather presented a series of whines about the state of content. I feel bad for CCP having to listen to these people complain, complain and complain without presenting anything constructive.
Glad to see the minutes show that CCP is giving the due attention to the CSM that it deserves: Zero.
sekrit ccp alt detected.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Cortante As usual, the minutes show that the CSM did not present one issue to improve the game and rather presented a series of whines about the state of content. I feel bad for CCP having to listen to these people complain, complain and complain without presenting anything constructive.
Glad to see the minutes show that CCP is giving the due attention to the CSM that it deserves: Zero.
á
I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything. |
Lornnar
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:34:00 -
[23]
"CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard. CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnÆt committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment."
"The CSM suggested a dedicated öpolish teamô to be established, with players being informed as to what they intend to work on during each expansion. CCP¦s answer to that is that there will be no polish patrol team for the next 2-3 expansions even though players feel there should be."
but they put as much ressources into EVE atm, ok^^
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Dariah Stardweller
Gallente Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:55:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Edited by: Helicity Boson on 12/07/2010 16:53:47 TL;DR = We are going to keep shoving our half finished and unneeded features down your throat for at least a year and a half longer before we even consider fixing all our broken poo poo and non-functional core gameplay.
That¦s basicly what I got out of it yeah.
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Delilah Wild
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:09:00 -
[25]
As I read through these minutes, I see alot of hard work and good ideas.
Lets give this CSM the time it needs to start pushing change forward. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Delilah friendsofeve.wordpress.com
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:12:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Delilah Wild As I read through these minutes, I see alot of hard work and good ideas.
Lets give this CSM the time it needs to start pushing change forward. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Delilah friendsofeve.wordpress.com
If these minutes did not make it abundantly clear that there is no "pushing" to be had, you are seriously delusional.
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Dakisha
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:14:00 -
[27]
And here is what is wrong with the CSM:
Originally by: CSM Minutes
CCP responded that things do take time and although it might not look like it, CSM items in the backlog do get addressed and result in changes to the game when the timing is right related to development planning and resource availability
When it happens to fit nicely in to whatever you're currently doing.. As opposed to realising that these are the biggest issues that the players of eve have managed to get the CSM to bring up, and put dedicated resources on the job.
This is also why the CSM will continue to fail to gain the full support/trust of the playerbase. They were hobbled from the outset.
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Dzajic
Gallente Level Up
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:18:00 -
[28]
This is a disaster, I wouldn't expect ActiBlizz to act that foolish. We need a mother of all thrednaughts in GD.
CCP said that they won't fix/improve anything relating to LowSec, Faction Warfare and 0.0 for next year and a half at least. Nor will there be time to fix many minor bugs and issues nor for any improvements to UI.
Only thing to expect in next 18 months is minor tweaks to PI, and maybe something called "combat expansion" that if I understood correctly, isn't a major UI change but just improvements to combat notifications and stuff.
Everything that CSM pointed out is a critical issue has been completely ignored by CCP or brushed off with "not in next 18 months".
We need a mother of all trednaughts in GD and entire CSM resigning unanimously.
OK, Dust is separate game (even though it has taken critical amount of resources form EVE) and CCP invested a lot and will be ****ed if they don't get it out and recover at least some of money invested in it. They won't make money on it, console shooter market is oversaturated by AAA titles of big publishers that have marketing budgets higher then CCPs yearly totals. But still, maybe CCP will sell enough boxes to recover some of money spent on it.
But Incarna is for us, the EVE players, and no one really cared about it ever. It was a nice gimmick promised for distant future. Does anyone understand how insane does "nothing will be fixed or improved for at least next 18 months" sond?
CSM was supposed to be voice of players to CCP, CCP completely ignored it, what are we left with? :(
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Dakisha
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:28:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dzajic lots of good stuff
Dust, a game PC owners wont even be able to play - and walking in stations, something players stopped giving a **** about years ago - are both taking all the dev time away from the real game.
Thus leaving CCP with no dev time to put into real issues affecting here and now.
Unfortunately CCP have their heads up their asses on this one and I don't see this changing. They've effectively commited to abandoning eve for the next 1 1/2 to 2 years because they've got so much tied up with dust/incarna - that much was made clear in the minutes..
They seem to think we can be won over with shinys - and to a degree, it is unfortunately true. Dust is just a shiny we're not going to have access to, so they seem to have forgotten that we're not going to be too happy that all the devs are ****ing around with that instead.
Do CCP really think we want WIS over fixing any one of the major issues they made vauge promises over in the csm? Try fixing what the players raise as issues instead of giving us half assed mini games (which is all incarna will be for a long time).
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.12 20:51:00 -
[30]
Just for the sake of irony, I have lifted the following from the company page:
Quote: ABOUT US
CCP was founded in the summer of 1997 with the goal of becoming a leading massively multiplayer game company. With the launch of EVE Online in May 2003, CCP has established itself as one of the leading companies in the field, winning numerous awards and receiving critical acclaim worldwide.
CCP is dedicated to the development of cutting edge massively multiplayer games. CCP is founded on the principle of pushing the envelope and breaking new grounds on all levels. CCP is not about making copycat products with compromised quality. CCP is about making dreams become a reality.
Massively multiplayer games are virtual realities. They are about creating experiences unattainable in any other form of media. A virtual reality is about true human interaction and true human emotions in a living and evolving world. It is CCP's belief that massively multiplayer games are the biggest revolution in computer gaming history and CCP is dedicated to make the dream of a true virtual reality come into being.
CCP's mission is to attract and retain customers by providing top quality online entertainment. CCP does this by establishing and nurturing a trust relationship with customers both in terms of quality of content as well as quality of service.
CCP encourages respect, dialog, interaction and cooperation on a deeper level between its employees and customers than is common in online games. By this and through this CCP provides a unique way for improving the quality of its products and creates an inspiring and challenging environment for talent to thrive.
We care more. We work harder
(emphasis mine)
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Hertford
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:04:00 -
[31]
At least the development time spent on Incarna didn't interfere with the normal development resources allocated to internet spaceships. |
Shakon
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:59:00 -
[32]
2 things come to mind reading that. Sounds like a jita scammer! Or a used car salesman on the interweb selling a clunker!
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:11:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Hertford At least the development time spent on Incarna didn't interfere with the normal development resources allocated to internet spaceships.
Yeah I'm really pleased that CCP flat-out lied to us about that.
Incarna as a low-resource bonus from WoD development? Sweet, nice thinking. Good synergy there.
Incarna as a giant dev-guzzling resource hog that leaves the game mired in rotting pig-**** for 18 months? Not so nice, you ****ing morons. What the **** were you thinking? You took a giant **** all over your core game, then lied to your customers about how much it cost. Who's short-bus genius strategy was that?
(1) **** over the veteran playerbase who run multiple accounts for a long time (2) In favour of new players who run one account for a few months (3) ...? (4) Profit?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:28:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/07/2010 22:30:25 This.... is really ****ing depressing.
"Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnÆt committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment." No... it really isn't. It's a sign that you do more development, not put more polish on that development.
"It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features." Indeed. Unfortunately word of mouth sells even better - and they're running grave risks with that.
"A specific Low Sec expansion is not on the 18 month plan" #fail. It doesn't even have to be "focused on low sec"... there's a lot that can be done without making a whole goddamn expansion.
"The CSM suggested a dedicated öpolish teamô to be established, with players being informed as to what they intend to work on during each expansion. CCP ́s answer to that is that there will be no polish patrol team for the next 2-3 expansions even though players feel there should be." #fail. This is what you need most, honestly.
"CCP stated that FW is not a priority and no FW-related changes will be considered until after Incarna and Dust." #fail. So many things that can be fixed, so little incentive to do it. Just another CCP #failure.
I am *SO TEMPTED* to offer to work on Eve *for free* in my spare time. But I don't know that I want to work on a MMO that seems determined to wallow in pig **** until it dies a diseased husk. Why is CCP so determined to fail?
-Liang
Ed: Formatting. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Milo Caman
Gallente Anshar Incorporated
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:55:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/07/2010 22:30:25 This.... is really ****ing depressing.
Seconded. What's the ****ing point of the CSM if CCP are just going to ignore everything thrown at them, deny anything's wrong, and bulldoze ahead with a gamebreaking (or in this case not even game-related) schedule anyway? ---
Originally by: Sarina Berghil I think the reason your guns didn't work is because you're trying to hunt squirrels with Howitzers.
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:01:00 -
[36]
The content of the meetings minutes is disappointing. CCP gave CSM4 the same "18 month" time frame which means they added stuff in that ignored CSM's stakeholder input or it was just a smoke screen in the first place. Incarna taking dev resources is a new line, a definite departure from their earlier statements that no EVE development resources were being diverted to it. There's a possible upside in that the Incarna release will be that much better for it, but given post-Apocrypha history and CCP's tone I'm not hopeful that's the case.
On the minutes format: Action Points are an awesome addition to these things on a lot of levels (CSM transparency, CCP accountability, adding content to the document itself)
On the process: CSM's stakeholder status is clearly in name only and least until DUST and Incarna are released. The next test of it will be if CCP actually includes them, their at that time 3+ year backlog, and their feedback on those releases properly once those major products have cleared the pipe. Never the less, CSM does provide some valuble services to the community, not in the least getting more dev blogs out about things important to us and being able to provide quality feedback of opportunity like pointing the devs to the fleet interface for lag reduction (CSM4) and the 100k skillpoint reimbursement (CSM5) among many other instances.
And finally, I find it to continue to be funny that CCP knows it has a forum problem (in that it feels like it was made in the 1990's) but refuses to fix it. This is, of course, despite their quantity-of-excellence-dev-budget and the fact that there are several FREE forums that are unbelievably better than the current one. ---
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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:11:00 -
[37]
Hrm.
The CSM was made up of members who were, with one exception, quality representatives dedicated to their constituents and improving the game. Hopefully recent events will allow the CSM to refocus on getting **** done without impact from one member's personality disorder. Because, honestly, we really, really need something like that now. CCP has steadily been harming the game over the last short while, from breaking fleet combat with Dominion to churning out a slew of half-baked releases that are never touched again. They seem to, well, simply not get it.
Rational folks don't expect miracles from the CSM, and we understand that you'll be shut down and handwaved away as long as CCP is determined to behave in such a manner. We accept that and won't fault you for it. But we do expect that you'll take the opportunity that CCP has given you and keep hammering into the breach until the CSM really has enough heft to make sure that CCP understands that a "commitment to excellence" doesn't mean "commitment to releasing lots of broken crap". EVE is currently running on the Chinese industry model, and someone has to be there to point out that maybe cutting corners isn't worth it in the long run.
The CSM has their work cut out for 'em, and it may take this entire term plus several others, but something has to be done. Best of luck to the CSM, because they'll need it. |
Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:33:00 -
[38]
Hooray! I am reading them right now. Here are some things of interest (to me):
Originally by: Minutes The CSM inquired about CCPÆs definition of the ôstakeholderö [...] it was the status of having the right to submit design requests to the official game design process and having it evaluated [...]
This is disappointing because this is very little benefit over people putting together proposals and posting them into the Ideas and Features forum, other than forcing a response from CCP. Of course I don't expect CCP to hand CSM the ability to change anything at a whim - it's CCP's product - but at the same time it's very disappointing.
Originally by: Minutes The CSM would like the prioritization of the backlogùparticularly CSM-raised issues--to be visible to everyone.
This, however, would be really nice IF the items in the backlog actually get development time. How often are items in the backlog worked on? If the backlog was made available, would it be possible to see which items are being actively developed? That would be really great.
Originally by: Minutes Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnÆt committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.
While I can see Nathan's point here, I disagree. It isn't Excellence when features are released buggy and fell unfinished, and then left to linger. I would rather have fewer features added each expansion and have the time spent on polish and maintenance. Eve is a great game, but when you hear about features that have been broken and unfinished for YEARS it's disheartening.
Originally by: Minutes Magnetometric exploration sites are so much less valuable than Radar and Ladar sites [...] The content team stated that they intend to rebalance that but could not give a definite timetable for it.
This is GREAT news to me, as I do low sec exploration quite a bit. Even if there isn't a definite schedule for this kind of thing, knowing that they're already aware of the issue and intend on fixing it is a good thing.
Originally by: Minutes [...] the current PI is not the end product [...] CCP devs present agreed that [competition] was in the spirit of EVE and that they would look for opportunities to incorporate it [...]
Also excellent. To be honest, PI doesn't thrill me at all, but I do dabble and I'm hoping that it is improved upon. The dedicated resources are good as well, though I do wonder about priorities - why isn't there a dedicated FW resource or Backlog resource, for example? I know PI will be linked to Dust, but...
Originally by: Minutes Action Point: Incarna ôState of the Situationö dev blog.
Yes, yes, yes. The Eve dev blogs are one of my favorite things because it gives us a lot of great information about what is going on behind the scenes and they're almost always interesting.
Originally by: Minutes [...] they are still banning RMT-ers, banning at least 1000 accounts a month.
Woohoo! Go get 'em!
Originally by: Minutes A specific Low Sec expansion is not on the 18 month plan; however CCP is looking into a combat expansion [...]
And this helps low-sec become unique, interesting, and desirable how? Knowing that there's no plans at all for Low Sec for over a year and a half is extremely disappointing to me. There is so much potential here, so many great ideas, low sec is a large part of Eve territory-wise, and there's no interest?
Originally by: Minutes CSM was urged to put together a Low Sec foundation story with essential elements defined, then submit it as a proposal for future consideration.
Well, let's get crankin'. Any information on how you guys would like to go about doing this, and how the community will be involved?
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:51:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Andrea Griffin Well, let's get crankin'. Any information on how you guys would like to go about doing this, and how the community will be involved?
Did you miss the part where they said "we're not fixing anything for the next 18 months minimum, and lowsec not for the nexrt 2-3 expansions" ?
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:52:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Minutes CCP stated that FW is not a priority and no FW-related changes will be considered until after Incarna and Dust. The CSM is very unhappy with this and urged CCP to at least fix trivial issues which have a major impact on the player experience.
This really irks me. There's a lot of problems with FW. Fixing even some of the minor issues would be a huge boon. FW is a fantastic feature for all the reasons mentioned and I know that I had a heavy interest in FW (Amarr Victor, Minmatards! ) - until I experienced how broken it was.
THIS is the kind of thing that makes the player base question CCP's commitment to excellence.
Originally by: Minutes Action Point: CCP will publish a dev blog on MMO scaling issues.
Hell yes! I'm really looking forward to this one! The tech dev blogs are the BEST of them all - I always learn something.
Originally by: Minutes The CSM asked about CCPÆs plans to incorporate emerging interaction technologies like touchpads [...] CCP stated that at this time there is no plan to evolve [...] in that direction.
And I agree with them on this. I don't see why it would be worth their time to work on something that a very small minority of the player base would be using.
Originally by: Minutes CCP stated it is currently designing a new font.
Yay! Cheer! Victory! Looking forward to this!
Originally by: Minutes CCP stated that there have been several reprioritizations of role management and reviews of them.
This is great, but I wasn't sure if this meant that roles were going to be revamped any time soon or what it may look like. Can you provide more details? A new role system is something I have wanted for a long, long, long time and it would benefit EVERY corporation in Eve equally.
Originally by: Minutes Some CSM members feel that CCP should focus more on the core game play of EVE that is spaceships. They feel that while other features such as PI and FW can be cool, CCP should consider the accumulating impacts of every expansion on the balance of EVEÆs core game play.
Eve is more than space ships though. It is the market, it is production, it is social networking, it is crime and punishment. Space ships are a big part of Eve, yes, but not the only part. It seems that CCP's Big Vision is a Universe Simulation Game. Someone has a bigger vision here and I think it's cool and has a LOT of potential - if it is released and polished and not neglected.
Originally by: Minutes Improve POS missile batteries.
But I LIKE tanking multiple torpedo batteries in my stealth bomber...
Originally by: Minutes The CSM Chairwoman stated she would be publicly tracking the status of CCPÆs deliverables so that the player base would remain informed about progress in getting these items from CCP.
Also great.
Overall, I hope that CCP and Nathan in particular don't feel like we're attacking them and trying to put them down. As players, we put a lot of time and effort into Eve and we care about it. We just want it to be as best as it can be.
Thanks for the Minutes!
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:57:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: Andrea Griffin Well, let's get crankin'. Any information on how you guys would like to go about doing this, and how the community will be involved?
Did you miss the part where they said "we're not fixing anything for the next 18 months minimum, and lowsec not for the nexrt 2-3 expansions" ?
No, I didn't. I also didn't miss the part where CCP asked the CSM to start putting something together now, implying that the proposal will get some attention once they have their current priorities finished. CCP wouldn't have asked the CSM to do something if they weren't even mildly interested in the results:
Originally by: Minutes CSM was urged to put together a Low Sec foundation story with essential elements defined, then submit it as a proposal for future consideration.
Just because they don't have time now doesn't mean that we should just throw up our arms and give up - but perhaps I'm just not quite so focused on defeat and cynicism.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.07.13 01:08:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 13/07/2010 01:12:41
Quote:
Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnÆt committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.
The CSM suggested that a perception of excellence is in large part based on player perception and that they felt that players generally do not perceive EVE as being an excellent product nor headed in an excellent direction.
http://www.ruderfinn.co.uk/blogs/dotcom/files/2009/06/enviromental-head-in-the-sand.jpg
So they're fine if we all stop playing until after they pull their head outta the sand?
Exodus from Eve anyone?
Hilmar wake and fix your company before we all leave you.
No we won't wait another 2 years to have the last 2 years of code bug fixed.
New customers account for more revenue then old? How many new customers do you think you'll attract with no customers at all?
Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Just because they don't have time now doesn't mean that we should just throw up our arms and give up - but perhaps I'm just not quite so focused on defeat and cynicism.
They've miss-calculated how long people will wait while they go off on a tangent to develop other games.
The defeat and cynicism from the CSM is directly proportional to their understanding that Eve is on the crux of a fail cascade.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.07.13 02:30:00 -
[43]
All you guys are so selfish, the players always whine but CCP tries its hardest to keep everybody happy, and they have a clear view of their prioritieeaahaha I'm just screwing with you they've got their heads up their ass.
It's going to be a long couple of years. -------------------------------------------------- Learning skills are an ultimatum, not a choice. |
Elsymir Crystalblood
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:15:00 -
[44]
These minutes are a fine example of basic economics.
When you possess a monopoly on the supply of a product (in this case, internet spaceship MMOs), you are allowed to do as you please without risking significant changes in the level of demand you're faced with.
One can only hope another internet spaceship MMO of sufficient quality makes an appearance on the market soon, if only to give CCP the kick in the ass they so sorely require.
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Turdilious
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:51:00 -
[45]
Dust 514 what a Joke. A shooter that will be played for a few weeks then never played again. CCP expects a fly by night consle game to be a permanent feature of eve online? I dont think so.
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CeneUJiti
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Posted - 2010.07.13 07:55:00 -
[46]
I'm amazed at how little player reaction is to this scandalous results. OK, maybe the economists and marketing people are telling them that $100 invested in new features and commercials gives them far more customers than fixing crippling bugs and issues, but even if that was true, if they abandon EVE for 18 months (which they wont, they wont fix anything but they will shove in new features that no one wants and will also be abandoned and broken) that "EVE is dying" joke might stop being a joke.
And what other MMOs does that "$100 invested there does that" analysis? From pretty much polished and bug free WOW? Where any major bug is fixed in a couple of months at worst? I don't think all that talk about "how much money invested into new shines and commercials you need to retain customers over 18-22 month period" can come from all the other MMOs that died in fire long before they were a year and a half old.
I honestly believe that "lifycycle" of EVE player is much longer than average generic MMO, simply because you need first 6-9 months of skill learning to get into most basic stuff. And if someone has been stubborn to keep in game that long, he wont quite in next 6-10 months. And second, EVE spreads a lot by word of mouth.
If CCP stays true to their word and abandons EVE for next 18 months it will be horrible. If they continue piling new features without fixing anything, it will be much worse, as 18 months from now we will have several new features that need dev attention and that have introduced dozens of new bugs and performance issues upon servers.
While we as EVE players can't influence CCP a least bit about Dust as its separate game for a completely different platform, we must take a strong voice and demand Incarna do be delayed indefinitely until at least some of current major issues with EVE are fixed.
LowSec situation was iffy for years and new probing system was pretty much a nail in the coffin.
FW was bugged and broken from the start, it has been 2 years now, and CCP tells us we need to wait at least 2 more for anything to be fixed there?! :(
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Svarty II
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.13 10:24:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CeneUJiti If CCP stays true to their word and abandons EVE for next 18 months it will be horrible. If they continue piling new features without fixing anything, it will be much worse, as 18 months from now we will have several new features that need dev attention and that have introduced dozens of new bugs and performance issues upon servers.
While we as EVE players can't influence CCP a least bit about Dust as its separate game for a completely different platform, we must take a strong voice and demand Incarna do be delayed indefinitely until at least some of current major issues with EVE are fixed.
LowSec situation was iffy for years and new probing system was pretty much a nail in the coffin.
FW was bugged and broken from the start, it has been 2 years now, and CCP tells us we need to wait at least 2 more for anything to be fixed there?! :(
Did you even read the minutes?
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CeneUJiti
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Posted - 2010.07.13 11:04:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Svarty II
Originally by: CeneUJiti If CCP stays true to their word and abandons EVE for next 18 months it will be horrible. If they continue piling new features without fixing anything, it will be much worse, as 18 months from now we will have several new features that need dev attention and that have introduced dozens of new bugs and performance issues upon servers.
While we as EVE players can't influence CCP a least bit about Dust as its separate game for a completely different platform, we must take a strong voice and demand Incarna do be delayed indefinitely until at least some of current major issues with EVE are fixed.
LowSec situation was iffy for years and new probing system was pretty much a nail in the coffin.
FW was bugged and broken from the start, it has been 2 years now, and CCP tells us we need to wait at least 2 more for anything to be fixed there?! :(
Did you even read the minutes?
Yes I have.
And in them I read that CCP rejected every CSM proposal and dismissed every CSM concern. That they said that they will do no work on lowsec or FW in next 18 moths. That UI change is too difficult and also cant be done in that timeframe. That even CCP forming a small team that will fix a minor bug or two every moths is impossible with CCPs allocation of resources until Incarna and Dust are shipped.
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Ebisu Kami
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Posted - 2010.07.13 11:14:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Svarty II Did you even read the minutes?
Did you? Where exactly are you disagreeing with him?
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Aurora Polaris The Babylon Consortium
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:21:00 -
[50]
It must have been a tense affair once the CSM heard that the next 18 months or so of dev time is already accounted for it could very well mean that CSM 5 and 6 achieve nothing but making CCP aware of things they already know about and have already decided on whether to ignore it, develop it or scrap it altogether and of course the time line on which it all happens.
If it wasn't tense I would feel done in, from that comment alone no matter how much time, energy and valid points the CSM brings to the table it won't change CCP's attitude and their agenda. Less than 10% of accounts voted in the CSM 5 project, if it stands true of not fixing the fixable in the next two/three updates that figure will be actually lower, assuming the account numbers are relative.
END OF WHINE
Now for the good bit, the positive.
What should CSM 5 be focusing on this term?
CSM 5, has to focus on bringing CCP to task on it's "Commitment of Excellence" programme, and ensuring the Dev blogs and action points are completed, why there are more action points that the CSM has to carry out I'm not sure of, but of course they should be done in as timely a matter as possible.
To save time at the meetings don't discuss ANY game mechanic changes for the rest of the year, it's evident that CCP has their own schedule and the CSM didn't get a look in, rather bring them an overview of what the players believe the CSM SHOULD be, and how it can obtain it's own sprint team for backlog issues and future items that can bring measurable items within the CSM cyle or of course 6 months in to the CSM after
With the backlog as big as it is, please don't let CCP "forget" to provide all that you asked for in terms of accountability and progress updates.
tl:dr - if you play eve, you should be used to reading long passages of text, or do you grind missions for the isk/lp/standings/loot?
View The Eve Industrial Organiser Site
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.07.13 14:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush sLess than 10% of accounts voted in the CSM 5 projects
Get your facts straight.
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Turdilious
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Posted - 2010.07.13 15:01:00 -
[52]
12.67% voted. Ok that is over 10%. a little
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Riflin' Betty
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:16:00 -
[53]
Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:28:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Riflin' Betty Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.
did you really fall for that ? haha nice |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:53:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Riflin' Betty Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.
Isn't Scrapheap owned by a CCP dev?
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Riflin' Betty
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:00:00 -
[56]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Riflin' Betty Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.
did you really fall for that ? haha nice
Nope, but you just fell for my trap quite well. We know who you are now.
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:01:00 -
[57]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Riflin' Betty Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.
did you really fall for that ? haha nice
hello employee, time to reskin, and learn a thing or two about entrapments :P
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DogSlime
Caldari Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:01:00 -
[58]
Look at it this way - CCP will resume work on lowsec, lag, UI, bugs and Faction Warfare etc when they've finished the other games they're working on at the moment.
That's only 12 to 18 months away (assuming they release on time). You only need to give them a few more hundred of whatever currency you use to pay your subscription, and they'll start working on your concerns.
They won't take the money and run. They won't just start work on the NEXT game after DUST/World of Darkness. They'll finally sit down and make EVE work properly. You won't have spent years WAITING and PAYING for a promised-land that was perpetually over-the-horizon.
Trust them. They've never let us down before.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:12:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I am *SO TEMPTED* to offer to work on Eve *for free* in my spare time. But I don't know that I want to work on a MMO that seems determined to wallow in pig **** until it dies a diseased husk. Why is CCP so determined to fail?
Oh, please, you think they'd let you touch their baby? By all accounts, they don't let actual devs work on the game in their free time.
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Riflin' Betty
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:21:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Liang Nuren I am *SO TEMPTED* to offer to work on Eve *for free* in my spare time. But I don't know that I want to work on a MMO that seems determined to wallow in pig **** until it dies a diseased husk. Why is CCP so determined to fail?
Oh, please, you think they'd let you touch their baby? By all accounts, they don't let actual devs work on the game in their free time.
Herschel, by all accounts from the CSM, they don't even let the Devs work on EVE in their paid time. not until they finish the dual abortions that are dust and incarna.
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DogSlime
Caldari Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:21:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah I'm really pleased that CCP flat-out lied to us about that.
Incarna as a low-resource bonus from WoD development? Sweet, nice thinking. Good synergy there.
Incarna as a giant dev-guzzling resource hog that leaves the game mired in rotting pig-**** for 18 months? Not so nice, you ****ing morons. What the **** were you thinking? You took a giant **** all over your core game, then lied to your customers about how much it cost. Who's short-bus genius strategy was that?
(1) **** over the veteran playerbase who run multiple accounts for a long time (2) In favour of new players who run one account for a few months (3) ...? (4) Profit?
If enough people unsubbed and stated why, CCP would act. Problem is, people won't. CCP can either allocate their resources to their shiney new games, or they can make EVE what it should be. They know - they KNOW that they'll get subscriptions to EVE either way.
If the shiney games prove to be more popular (and more lucrative), will they start to invest in EVE again? If the shiney games are a flop, my guess is that they'll redouble their efforts to try to make them successful.
EVE isn't priority one anymore. It would take a very sharp lesson to CCP - and SOON - if they are going to ever make EVE their top priority again. There won't be any such lesson.
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:25:00 -
[62]
Originally by: DogSlime
Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah I'm really pleased that CCP flat-out lied to us about that.
Incarna as a low-resource bonus from WoD development? Sweet, nice thinking. Good synergy there.
Incarna as a giant dev-guzzling resource hog that leaves the game mired in rotting pig-**** for 18 months? Not so nice, you ****ing morons. What the **** were you thinking? You took a giant **** all over your core game, then lied to your customers about how much it cost. Who's short-bus genius strategy was that?
(1) **** over the veteran playerbase who run multiple accounts for a long time (2) In favour of new players who run one account for a few months (3) ...? (4) Profit?
If enough people unsubbed and stated why, CCP would act. Problem is, people won't. CCP can either allocate their resources to their shiney new games, or they can make EVE what it should be. They know - they KNOW that they'll get subscriptions to EVE either way.
If the shiney games prove to be more popular (and more lucrative), will they start to invest in EVE again? If the shiney games are a flop, my guess is that they'll redouble their efforts to try to make them successful.
EVE isn't priority one anymore. It would take a very sharp lesson to CCP - and SOON - if they are going to ever make EVE their top priority again. There won't be any such lesson.
No. What you have to understand is that CCP is at the top making a conscious decision to follow specific business doctrines. The product is great, but it is coming to a choice between doctrines.
They can afford to recycle the subscriber base, quite easily even. And they have factored it in.
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DogSlime
Caldari Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:31:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Dragon Greg
No. What you have to understand is that CCP is at the top making a conscious decision to follow specific business doctrines. The product is great, but it is coming to a choice between doctrines.
They can afford to recycle the subscriber base, quite easily even. And they have factored it in.
It's business for sure, but the only revenue stream for that business right now is from subscriptions to their service/product - EVE.
Subscribers to the service/product are unhappy with its flaws. They were led to believe that their concerns were important and that the flaws in the product would be corrected. Now they learn that the flaws will stay because the subscribers money is being used to fund another product.
The subscribers want the money they're paying to be used to improve/repair the product they're paying for.
CCP aren't "wrong" - either legally or morally, but there's a conflict of interest. Before the CSM minutes, that conflict of interest was suspected, but now it's been out-and-out stated.
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Riflin' Betty
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Riflin' Betty Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.
did you really fall for that ? haha nice
Nope, but you just fell for my trap quite well. We know who you are now.
lol i doubt that :D
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JASON W0RTHING
The Devolved HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:02:00 -
[65]
I just can't believe this. Nothing for 18 months. Nice. Not even a roflkets or AF re-balance on the horizon. What I kind of wanted to see on CCP's 18 month plan was some stuff like...
1. Kill the lag monster. Using whatever means necessary.
2. Low-sec expansion (awesomeness)
3. Improvements to FW, re-vamp cosmos
4. Mining expansion. (To completely re-vamp and fix mining)
5. General additional polish such as re-doing POS mechanics, adding a fifth t3 subsystem, etc..
I'm going to have to wait a minimum of 24 months for any of these. Not fun.
Originally by: CCP Shadow What is thy bidd -- Wait. This thread, I have an irresistible urge to lock it for "being related to neither crime nor punishment."
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Cedori
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:08:00 -
[66]
I've already unsubbed to be honest.
All 3 accounts expire in November, if there hasn't been some rather gigantic change in CCP priorities. Not just empty words, but actual fixes/changes by then, well, I will enjoy RL again without the looks my GF gives me from time to time.
This post represents the views of me, myself, and I. Nothing said should be attributed to my corp or alliance, otherwise I might be whipped with a strand of wet-spaghetti! |
ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:19:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Cedori I've already unsubbed to be honest.
All 3 accounts expire in November, if there hasn't been some rather gigantic change in CCP priorities. Not just empty words, but actual fixes/changes by then, well, I will enjoy RL again without the looks my GF gives me from time to time.
But are you gonna delete your characters ? |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:32:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Riflin' Betty
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Oh, please, you think they'd let you touch their baby? By all accounts, they don't let actual devs work on the game in their free time.
Herschel, by all accounts from the CSM, they don't even let the Devs work on EVE in their paid time. not until they finish the dual abortions that are dust and incarna.
TouchT...
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:54:00 -
[69]
Originally by: JASON W0RTHING Nothing for 18 months. Nice. Not even a roflkets or AF re-balance on the horizon.
Fix Rockets in 2012! (Before we all die) Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Ab Tallen
Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:18:00 -
[70]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Cedori I've already unsubbed to be honest.
All 3 accounts expire in November, if there hasn't been some rather gigantic change in CCP priorities. Not just empty words, but actual fixes/changes by then, well, I will enjoy RL again without the looks my GF gives me from time to time.
But are you gonna delete your characters ?
That's nonsense. Do you realize that people love this game, but not the direction CCP is trying to take it to? For my part, I don't intend on throwing away four years of stories and development attached to my character, and I love the thought of being able to come back. But as I wrote elsewhere, I'm not going to pay CCP for waiting until they start to clean up the mess produced by the last couple of expansions (never mind the stuff that has been broken for longer than I can remember).
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:23:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Ab Tallen
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Cedori I've already unsubbed to be honest.
All 3 accounts expire in November, if there hasn't been some rather gigantic change in CCP priorities. Not just empty words, but actual fixes/changes by then, well, I will enjoy RL again without the looks my GF gives me from time to time.
But are you gonna delete your characters ?
That's nonsense. Do you realize that people love this game, but not the direction CCP is trying to take it to? For my part, I don't intend on throwing away four years of stories and development attached to my character, and I love the thought of being able to come back. But as I wrote elsewhere, I'm not going to pay CCP for waiting until they start to clean up the mess produced by the last couple of expansions (never mind the stuff that has been broken for longer than I can remember).
exactly that is the reason all the "rage quitting" over the past years have not left a mark on ccp. people say "hey i gonna quit and now ccp wont get my money anymore", but what they then actually do is sell their accounts or give them away, so that indeed they are being continually paid for and thus the intention of the quitter is never reached. people allways talk boldly on the forums they will all quit and stuff, but then silently they continue to hold onto their accounts and do in effect do nothing. if your serious about quitting, delete your chars. thus it is assured this account will never be paid for again. |
captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:43:00 -
[72]
All I have to say is: what the hell?
Something like 85% of those proposals were met with "We're looking at it" (sure they have) followed by a "We'll get around to it when we have extra time/resources" (which they never do, and we know that and they know that and we know that they know that we know that)
I don't particularly want walking in stations--that looks nice, but it serves no real purpose. I do want meaningful missile POS defenses. I do want rockets that have a place other than the last high slot on a Dramiel. I do want faction warfare that I'd be willing to try because it's worthwhile. I do want a CCP that's less concerned about churning out new content than it is making EVE a good game.
The primary reason EVE is so popular is because it is inherently different than World of Warcraft and other popular MMOs--yet now CCP is following Blizzard's business model of "Expansions = quality", whereas they started out with "Let's make a quality game. What can we do to improve EVE?". Except that that new model misses the point: expansions filled with new features aren't the only thing that makes EVE a better and more popular game. And simply throwing them out there without considering the implications that they have on the overall workings of EVE is beginning to ruin the experience.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
If you're going to quote me that's great, but it must be something I've actually said. Shadow.
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Ab Tallen
Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:45:00 -
[73]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt exactly that is the reason all the "rage quitting" over the past years have not left a mark on ccp. people say "hey i gonna quit and now ccp wont get my money anymore", but what they then actually do is sell their accounts or give them away, so that indeed they are being continually paid for and thus the intention of the quitter is never reached.
Thank you so much for not reading what I wrote and just spewing the same blah again. I now know it can safely be ignored.
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:48:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ab Tallen
Thank you so much for not reading what I wrote and just spewing the same blah again. I now know it can safely be ignored.
your welcome. |
captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.07.13 20:07:00 -
[75]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Ab Tallen
Thank you so much for not reading what I wrote and just spewing the same blah again. I now know it can safely be ignored.
your welcome.
Further proof that you work for CCP.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
If you're going to quote me that's great, but it must be something I've actually said. Shadow.
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.13 20:12:00 -
[76]
Originally by: captain foivos
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Ab Tallen
Thank you so much for not reading what I wrote and just spewing the same blah again. I now know it can safely be ignored.
your welcome.
Further proof that you work for CCP.
ccp works for me. (no not really :P) |
Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.13 20:21:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Camios on 13/07/2010 20:23:23 I actually don't know how this will end. I have learned to love EVE as it is, so I want technology, ui and most gameplay fixes to things that already exist. But the vision for EVE by CCP, that is provided by the creative director (that is CCP t0rfifrans, right?) is really different from ours, they claim to see further and to make the EVE universe more rich and various, with Incarna and DUST.
They go on with their ambitious project about the ultimate science fiction simulator, but this in the end is not what players want: we want a game. We want fights, we want adventure, we want game politics and economics, and we want to have fun. We don't need a nice "philosophically complete" game world. We want to get a funny and deep gameplay.
For example, it is known that Incarna will not allow fights in station. While for CCP philosophical vision this is okay, this is not okay for the players that want to play with it: only carebears have something to do in station. So, it is understandable that CCP does not want to include a combat system beacause of eye candy (maybe it's hard to have combat animations at the level of a walking animation), but in the end a player wants something deep to do with it, that involves shooting stuff or people. Even the carebears have to tank rats!
/begin{eve_is_dying} And when people say that there will never be a sudden mass unsubscription, they are right. But a worst thing could happen, that is player slowly becoming tired if the game, and leaving one by one. This is somewhat aldready happening, but the rate at which people leave is lesser than the rate at which new player subscribe. This process could change the playerbase composition, killing the most active players of the game (mostly 0.0, lowsec and wh alliances and corporations), with the result of CCP neglecting even more those areas of the game. /end{eve_is_dying}
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Heroldyn Yhamad
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Posted - 2010.07.13 20:31:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 13/07/2010 20:31:39
Originally by: Camios
/begin{eve_is_dying} And when people say that there will never be a sudden mass unsubscription, they are right. But a worst thing could happen, that is player slowly becoming tired if the game, and leaving one by one. This is somewhat aldready happening, but the rate at which people leave is lesser than the rate at which new player subscribe. This process could change the playerbase composition, killing the most active players of the game (mostly 0.0, lowsec and wh alliances and corporations), with the result of CCP neglecting even more those areas of the game. /end{eve_is_dying}
Most active players are 0.0, lowsec and wh alliances? I don¦t buy that. Maybe most active on the forums. Besides there is a statisic I believe in one of the QEN that show only a very small fraction of the playerbase are in 0.0 and lowsec.
I agree about fixing bugs being more important then adding new content but i also think that Incarna and Dust are important milestones for the EVE-Brand. |
Magna Monez
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Posted - 2010.07.13 20:48:00 -
[79]
I think the real problem is that they have a bottleneck in developer talent that actually understands the EVE internals and can be trusted to make major changed to the code without ****ing things up.
That is why new people can be put on relatively light weight new stuff like eve-gate, PI etc. (New stuff is also where unit testing and scrum etc. seems to work well.)
- Gameplay Balance (How to avoid the need for massive fleet fights?) - Lag Fixing (architecture changes) - UI functionality overhaul
are what is really needed but developers who worked on that originally may have moved on or are now dealing with kids at home and just do not have the time to get in the zone as they used to.
That said there really is no excuse to not have small teams dedicated full time on features that were left half finished like FW.
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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2010.07.13 21:14:00 -
[80]
No surprise here. CCP needs to continue working on their ambitious projects.
Full steam ahead. _________________________________________ Support the "Seed Primae on the market and ORE LP Stores" proposal! Click here |
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Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.13 21:29:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 13/07/2010 20:31:39
Originally by: Camios
/begin{eve_is_dying} And when people say that there will never be a sudden mass unsubscription, they are right. But a worst thing could happen, that is player slowly becoming tired if the game, and leaving one by one. This is somewhat aldready happening, but the rate at which people leave is lesser than the rate at which new player subscribe. This process could change the playerbase composition, killing the most active players of the game (mostly 0.0, lowsec and wh alliances and corporations), with the result of CCP neglecting even more those areas of the game. /end{eve_is_dying}
Most active players are 0.0, lowsec and wh alliances? I don¦t buy that. Maybe most active on the forums. Besides there is a statisic I believe in one of the QEN that show only a very small fraction of the playerbase are in 0.0 and lowsec.
1. By activity I mean something that creates game content for other players. Players in empire (apart from pirates and griefers that I respect very much) do not create game and content for others, they play a sort of single player game, and 2. You're right with the statistics, but I just think that this means we need more reasons and possibilities for people to get into lowsec and 0.0. Everybody knows that lowsec is just a playground with no value, and conquerable space gameplay is boring because of lag. People stay in empire because for many people it's the best place to stay.
Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad
I agree about fixing bugs being more important then adding new content but i also think that Incarna and Dust are important milestones for the EVE-Brand.
These milestones have to prove to be worth their expectation. Full body avatars without a combat system is quite pointless to me, and many people. The only form of player interaction will be bumping, gambling and minigames... and DUST has very strong competitors, let's see how many players are they going to get.
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Heroldyn Yhamad
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Posted - 2010.07.13 21:50:00 -
[82]
Quote:
These milestones have to prove to be worth their expectation. Full body avatars without a combat system is quite pointless to me, and many people. The only form of player interaction will be bumping, gambling and minigames... and DUST has very strong competitors, let's see how many players are they going to get.
How do you know what forms of Player-Interaction there will be in Incarna? Only because they have only yet shown minigames and chatting doesnt mean that is it. Also why does it need a combat system so desperatly to have meaningfull player-interaction/be competetive? Research/Production/Market are all mechanics within eve that provide competition amongst players and are based on players interaction with each other in a non combat way. I dont see why within Incarna there could not be a similar mechanic.
Nontheless I think that at any point there should be a dedicated Bug-Fixing dev team within CCP, while other teams focus on new features and also that when the SCRUM goals/features are decided they should look back more at improving old features. |
Loi Shaini
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.07.13 22:52:00 -
[83]
If anyone truly thinks that Eve is dead/dying - they have large lumps of veldspar in their heads. If you look at some of the real train-wrecks out there in MMO land (for example ... StarWarsGalaxies - may she rest in peace) they are all still going, and never got anywhere near the state that Eve is in atm. There is enough in the game in terms of content and shiny things to continue to bring the punters in. And to CCP - that is what matters.
Expansions are there and being worked on because that is what they promised the market. So who is going to be more important - a few whiny internet spaceship flying players or the folks who have their hard earned readies invested in CCP. It's so cute though that some of the folks here - and the CSM - actually believe that they can make any difference.
What some people in here don't seem to understand is that their actual numbers in game mean diddly squat to CCP. They may give you a nice room to play (0.0), some nice toys (that you are already getting bored with) and some fancy titles to flash your epeen's with (CSM), but at the end of the day, if you decide to unsub and leave - there is a whole heap of people out there just waiting to replace you. So go ahead and rage-emo quit - who cares, heck you can burn your stuff and sell your characters and vow never to come back .... and by the time I just typed this you have been replaced by 5 other new players subbing .
And if you think you are "special" because you have been here since 2003 or 2004 or 2005 and have "invested so much time" in Eve (both in game and out of game) - then you probably are special, in your own unique way .
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Noun Verber
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.13 23:14:00 -
[84]
I picked up that it looks like Incarna will be staged in (hopefully not like the PI disaster) beginning with new avatar tools in a winter expansion (ie the next one?).
Hopefully they actually finish the feature that's apparently so important to them.
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Paint Thinner
Amarr The Grubs
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Posted - 2010.07.14 06:50:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Paint Thinner on 14/07/2010 06:50:23 Edited by: Paint Thinner on 14/07/2010 06:49:53
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/07/2010 22:30:25 "Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnÆt committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment." No... it really isn't. It's a sign that you do more development, not put more polish on that development.
This right here was easily one of the most disturbing answers in the whole summary.
If cost equaled excellence the New York Rangers would have won 20 Stanley Cups, NASA would have parked a major city on ****ing Pluto by now and Waterworld would have been the next Citizen Kane.
Sure, spending heavy scratch on development shows that you are willing to foot the steep numbers required to make a quality game in this genre. However, that does not mean that said resources are being used appropriately.
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DogSlime
Caldari Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2010.07.14 12:41:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Loi Shaini What some people in here don't seem to understand is that their actual numbers in game mean diddly squat to CCP. They may give you a nice room to play (0.0), some nice toys (that you are already getting bored with) and some fancy titles to flash your epeen's with (CSM), but at the end of the day, if you decide to unsub and leave - there is a whole heap of people out there just waiting to replace you. So go ahead and rage-emo quit - who cares, heck you can burn your stuff and sell your characters and vow never to come back .... and by the time I just typed this you have been replaced by 5 other new players subbing
You reckon? 5 Starters for every leaver? That's a serious exponential growth. Unsubbing due to poor product support is not rage-emo quitting.
I doubt I am alone in this... My 5 day re-activation runs out shortly. I won't delete my characters because CCP might decide to do the necessary work on EVE. If they sort EVE out, I will definitely resub and CCP will definitely have my money.
Originally by: Loi Shaini And if you think you are "special" because you have been here since 2003 or 2004 or 2005 and have "invested so much time" in Eve (both in game and out of game) - then you probably are special, in your own unique way .
Paying customers have a right to expect decent service. There's nothing about "special" in all this. Many subscribers have put up with paying for what they consider to be a poorer service because CCP said that the problems would be addressed. Now CCP are saying that the problems must remain for at least a year - more likely two years.
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Libin Herobi
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Posted - 2010.07.14 13:17:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Loi Shaini
What some people in here don't seem to understand is that their actual numbers in game mean diddly squat to CCP. They may give you a nice room to play (0.0), some nice toys (that you are already getting bored with) and some fancy titles to flash your epeen's with (CSM), but at the end of the day, if you decide to unsub and leave - there is a whole heap of people out there just waiting to replace you. So go ahead and rage-emo quit - who cares, heck you can burn your stuff and sell your characters and vow never to come back .... and by the time I just typed this you have been replaced by 5 other new players subbing
Those 5 people do not join because I leave. It's not like you have to wait for an open seat so you can join.
A lost customer is a lost customer. Losing her/him and getting 5 new customers is not better than not losing her/him and getting 5 new customers.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.14 13:45:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Helicity Boson on 14/07/2010 13:57:42 http://machine9.net/sigs/lolveur.gif
there you go. sig worthy.
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Dakisha
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.14 15:02:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Edited by: Helicity Boson on 14/07/2010 13:57:42 http://machine9.net/sigs/lolveur.gif
there you go. sig worthy.
About sums it up really
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Auri Hella
Downwind Trading Guild
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Posted - 2010.07.14 15:19:00 -
[90]
These minutes are a depressing read. While the CSM seems to have done their job CCP's attitude is deplorable.
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.14 15:19:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Dakisha
Originally by: Helicity Boson Edited by: Helicity Boson on 14/07/2010 13:57:42 http://machine9.net/sigs/lolveur.gif
there you go. sig worthy.
About sums it up really
except its their money and not yours. |
Smyrk
SRE Brotherhood
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Posted - 2010.07.14 15:57:00 -
[92]
Mynxee, is the presentation you gave ("Making Low Sec Matter") available publicly?
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:26:00 -
[93]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt except its their money and not yours.
True, that's the one thing that bothers me about the sig. Still, it gets at the crux of the issue - this game is broken, and they're refusing to fix it for stupid reasons.
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:31:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt except its their money and not yours.
True, that's the one thing that bothers me about the sig. Still, it gets at the crux of the issue - this game is broken, and they're refusing to fix it for stupid reasons.
they are not refusing to fix it. they will do small fixes and stuff inbetween. people read the minutes like ccp said "we will do nothing except incarna for the next 18 month" and that is not true. what they said is they wont be doing resource-heavy (big) stuff/fixes until after 18 months. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:18:00 -
[95]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt they are not refusing to fix it. they will do small fixes and stuff inbetween. people read the minutes like ccp said "we will do nothing except incarna for the next 18 month" and that is not true. what they said is they wont be doing resource-heavy (big) stuff/fixes until after 18 months.
It's so hard to read your posts without translating "they" as "we".
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:29:00 -
[96]
Edited by: ThisIsNotMyAlt on 14/07/2010 18:29:44
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt they are not refusing to fix it. they will do small fixes and stuff inbetween. people read the minutes like ccp said "we will do nothing except incarna for the next 18 month" and that is not true. what they said is they wont be doing resource-heavy (big) stuff/fixes until after 18 months.
It's so hard to read your posts without translating "they" as "we".
-Liang
tbh i have no problem with SHC people confusing me with a CCP dev. as long as the gm's dont approach me and say something like i'd pretend being a dev. in short, believe what you want, conspiracy theories ftw. |
Ab Tallen
Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:17:00 -
[97]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt they are not refusing to fix it. they will do small fixes and stuff inbetween. people read the minutes like ccp said "we will do nothing except incarna for the next 18 month" and that is not true. what they said is they wont be doing resource-heavy (big) stuff/fixes until after 18 months.
...maybe. It's not as if previous CSMs had raised extensive lists of issues already... (This blog post has a nice summary on the CSM4 issues.)
And we all have our long-standing favourites... Small ones like perhaps Overview ghosts (you know, those non-existing ships that only disappear when you refresh the overview by pressing tab twice). Or the brilliant UI choices like having destructive actions right next to often-used actions on right-click menues (really, really hard to fix). Or bigger ones like the missing iterations on the new sov concept that has been introduced with oh-so-great expectations (never mind that people constantly have to petition broken sov structures - and don't even get me started on Factional Warfare). Or perhaps a working forum that has been promised for years...
Instead we have great new features like Planetary Interaction, which is about as immersive as a small cup of warm water. (From a company that has phrases like "A virtual reality is about true human interaction and true human emotions in a living and evolving world." on their web page...) Oh my.
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:24:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Ab Tallen
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt they are not refusing to fix it. they will do small fixes and stuff inbetween. people read the minutes like ccp said "we will do nothing except incarna for the next 18 month" and that is not true. what they said is they wont be doing resource-heavy (big) stuff/fixes until after 18 months.
...maybe. It's not as if previous CSMs had raised extensive lists of issues already... (This blog post has a nice summary on the CSM4 issues.)
And we all have our long-standing favourites... Small ones like perhaps Overview ghosts (you know, those non-existing ships that only disappear when you refresh the overview by pressing tab twice). Or the brilliant UI choices like having destructive actions right next to often-used actions on right-click menues (really, really hard to fix). Or bigger ones like the missing iterations on the new sov concept that has been introduced with oh-so-great expectations (never mind that people constantly have to petition broken sov structures - and don't even get me started on Factional Warfare). Or perhaps a working forum that has been promised for years...
Instead we have great new features like Planetary Interaction, which is about as immersive as a small cup of warm water. (From a company that has phrases like "A virtual reality is about true human interaction and true human emotions in a living and evolving world." on their web page...) Oh my.
there is allways gonna be new features. and there is also allways gonna be bugs. that doesnt mean that no bugs get fixed tho. all you need to do is read back through the changelogs of the patches. in every patch some things get fixed. even tho you might all say that bug fixing is more important then new features, truth is: if ccp would only bug fix for a year and not release new features, they would loose more subscribers over that. and if you were to really adress ALL bugs, you would need serveral years like that. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:55:00 -
[99]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt except its their money and not yours.
True, that's the one thing that bothers me about the sig. Still, it gets at the crux of the issue - this game is broken, and they're refusing to fix it for stupid reasons.
they are not refusing to fix it. they will do small fixes and stuff inbetween. people read the minutes like ccp said "we will do nothing except incarna for the next 18 month" and that is not true. what they said is they wont be doing resource-heavy (big) stuff/fixes until after 18 months.
I stand by my previous post. They make poke and prod a bit, but they aren't doing anything that even approximates making an attempt to fix the game.
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.14 21:05:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I stand by my previous post. They make poke and prod a bit, but they aren't doing anything that even approximates making an attempt to fix the game.
do that. :) |
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Zathi Shaitan
Illiteracy Combatants
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Posted - 2010.07.15 00:09:00 -
[101]
At a first glance, the minutes seemed very well-written.
But then.... "hangEr".
FFS, illiterates. Go back to friggin' elementary school. ---- http://loseloose.com/
http://youryoure.com/
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Dariah Stardweller
Gallente Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.07.15 09:39:00 -
[102]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
they are not refusing to fix it. they will do small fixes and stuff inbetween. people read the minutes like ccp said "we will do nothing except incarna for the next 18 month" and that is not true. what they said is they wont be doing resource-heavy (big) stuff/fixes until after 18 months.
Where are those 'small' fixes I have been wondering in the 2+ years I'm playing EVE.
CCP hasn't been able to fix something simple as the price history graph that has been broken since Dominion for instance. I doubt if they even located where the problem is tbh.
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Dariah Stardweller
Gallente Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.07.15 09:45:00 -
[103]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
there is allways gonna be new features. and there is also allways gonna be bugs. that doesnt mean that no bugs get fixed tho. all you need to do is read back through the changelogs of the patches. in every patch some things get fixed. even tho you might all say that bug fixing is more important then new features, truth is: if ccp would only bug fix for a year and not release new features, they would loose more subscribers over that. and if you were to really adress ALL bugs, you would need serveral years like that.
You forget to mention that bugs often return in CCP land or that they are claimed to be fixed while in fact they are not. Drones having a will of their own comes to mind for example...
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.15 11:26:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
there is allways gonna be new features. and there is also allways gonna be bugs. that doesnt mean that no bugs get fixed tho. all you need to do is read back through the changelogs of the patches. in every patch some things get fixed. even tho you might all say that bug fixing is more important then new features, truth is: if ccp would only bug fix for a year and not release new features, they would loose more subscribers over that. and if you were to really adress ALL bugs, you would need serveral years like that.
You forget to mention that bugs often return in CCP land or that they are claimed to be fixed while in fact they are not. Drones having a will of their own comes to mind for example...
I do not disagree to that. As said, there will allways be bugs, and there are allways some bugs fixed in each patch. read the patch notes, its all documented there. wether or not you would like ccp to fix more bugs is a completly different matter, but saying ccp does not fix bugs, or that they said they would not fix any bugs in the next 18 month, is just untrue. |
Dariah Stardweller
Gallente Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.07.15 16:24:00 -
[105]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
I do not disagree to that. As said, there will allways be bugs, and there are allways some bugs fixed in each patch. read the patch notes, its all documented there. wether or not you would like ccp to fix more bugs is a completly different matter, but saying ccp does not fix bugs, or that they said they would not fix any bugs in the next 18 month, is just untrue.
We all know that there is no such thing as bug free software. Thing is, CCP seems to be introducing more bugs than it fixes, at least in my experience.
And letting simple bugs linger for YEARS is NOT good game making, you can spin and twist that all you want but it simply isn't.
Look, if CCP introduced a bug in expansion X, I expect them to fix it in patch X.1, X.2 or even X.3 or .4. I DO NOT however, expect that bug to linger and even survive the next expansion launch.
Furthermore, there are aspects that should have een overhauled, long, long looooong ago. Take sound for instance, take the UI and I'm sure others can name a few others of the top of their head.
I truly believe that the path CCP is walking right now and has been walking the past few years will be the death of the game. The lack of competition has saved there butts for now but I doubt that will last forever.
Myself I would not even be playing EVE anymore if I couldn't sustain my accounts with PLEX without too much trbl as I simply don't think this game is worth cashing out 20-30 bucks a month for...
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Talmeric Eratirel
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Posted - 2010.09.15 17:06:00 -
[106]
Don't know if this has been raised yet, but ...
Originally by: CSM minutes
The winter expansion will focus on polish of existing features, mainly planetary interaction, and preparation for coming expansions.
Originally by: CSM minutes
CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.
So, winter expansion will be focused on polishing, then we will have Incarna / Dust, then re-polishing ?
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Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.09.17 21:05:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/09/2010 21:06:57 Dear CSM,
Thank you for all your time.
CCP is now a money only company as the game !
Bad that they don't really listened you all CSM members. Thank you for yout time ! It's now written in the minutes, it's CCP choice and you are against their view on quality.
They think once again based on the fact that new contents drive more paying players. And they don't think that not listening existing client make them drive away...Oh there is no other SF MMORPG....wellcheck the market guys somes are coming. Eve will not for so long be alone of the kind ! And CCP knows it that why they want Incarana and Dust asap !
CCP, don't get stunned when you will look Mercedes story...once they attempted to sell high prices car but with lower quality customers started to drive away.
Nathan....that's the guy that will cost you many paying accounts.
I fell we have attempted to tell you we liked the quality of your game. Be sure that an happy customer makes 10 happy new customers and that 1 unhappy customer make 100 less potential customer.
May be you should have thinked more than once, twice to that but it seems you like to think we are 10 year old kids.
With the new SF games that comes as you but for playing too.
Eve is dying and you make it !
capsuleers, check on : www.mmorpg.org
Yeay
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2010.09.20 11:19:00 -
[108]
It must have been said already but I just for the life of me cannot see why CCP can't see that fixing FW and improving it will go a long way to fixing Low-sec.
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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