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Zaboth Garadath Amarr No Limit Productions	Posted - 2010.07.10 05:50:00 - [1] I doubt any of you haven't seen scammers spamming local. Most often, the "Send me Isk I will send back 10x". However, this is not a question of whether scamming should be allowed. I fully agree that it is part of the game. However, there are some out there, who use religion to scam with. Quote: [05:43:44] Good Deal > Im going on a relief trip to Haiti. As a Christian, I believe in giving back. As such, I will be giving away my 13 bil isk to all those who have faith. Send me any amount of isk and I will send you DOUBLE back. Limit 3 per person. PLEASE READ MY BIO! His Bio: Quote: Grace to you and peace My name is Ronhard Kelley and I am a proud member of the Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, Texas. My entire life has been dedicated to ministry and serving the call to action from the Lord! http://www.Prestonwood.org/plano/inside-prestonwood/foundation/ I am extremely passionate about bringing Jesus into the community of Eve! One of my favorite sayings outside of the Bible is by a fellow brother named Dr. Jack Graham who said ôThe way you change the heart of a community is to change the heart of its men.ö It is a firm belief of mine that by doing right by everyone I honor my God and strengthen the message I preach! (Hebrews 11:1) 1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen. In the spirit of Jesus I believe in giving generously and having faith in the goodness of others. (James 1:6) 6 But let him ask in faith, without any doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed. So should this be allowed? As far as I can tell, many Christians would be really ****** with someone using their religion to deceive people with. What do you think? _____________________________________________ 'If you really want to make someone hate you, explain to them, logically and politely, why they are wrong' - J. Baylock
Taint Caldari Knights Of Divinity Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.07.10 05:59:00 - [2] why not ? had something in school about that jesus guy and i dont care hehe religion is for weak people who needs to have somthing to belive in.
Domonique Molvoy Exploitation Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.10 05:59:00 - [3] It sounds legit. Domonique Molvoy Shiptoasting extraordinaire
Simply Human	Posted - 2010.07.10 06:02:00 - [4] Make a petition if you don't want to see it. Not that it will get you anywhere.
Sourpsalm Gallente Pubs 'n Clubs	Posted - 2010.07.10 06:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Zaboth Garadath someone using their religion to deceive people with. This is just appalling. I simply cannot imagine people doing this; it must just be an EVE thing.
Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.10 06:21:00 - [6] Originally by: Zaboth Garadath However, there are some out there, who use religion to scam with. Originally by: Zaboth Garadath some out there, who use religion to scam Originally by: Zaboth Garadath who use religion Originally by: Zaboth Garadath religion Originally by: Zaboth Garadath Burn the heaten!

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.07.10 06:55:00 - [7] I say ban him! He caused a major discussion about religion in local, and me not being sober yet made it hard to follow the discussion as people talk so fast - so no! No religion scams!! /c Secure 3rd party service \| my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Taint Caldari Knights Of Divinity Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.07.10 07:00:00 - [8] drunk swede :) u in denmark again ?
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.07.10 07:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Taint why not ? had something in school about that jesus guy and i dont care hehe religion is for weak people who needs to have somthing to belive in. You're really wise! I want to be like you when I grow up EVE Trivia EVE History
Jason filigree	Posted - 2010.07.10 07:23:00 - [10] Actually those scams could be prosecuted under the same laws that would apply if I pulled the same scam with US dollars. The announcement that double your money will be returned can be considered an advertisement and a contract. It takes real time and real effort to collect ISC, and there is an established method to transfer real money to ISC thus ISC is property with value. There are already precedents in a couple of courts that you can sue for the loss of an in game item lost to a hacker or similar. and get a payment in real money based on the average effort to acquire the item. the game company is not required to enforce this law but a court could require game logs to be provided for evidence, theoretically a court could require CCP to give the scammers real contact information. In practice these scammers donÆt get enough for anybody to go to the bother of going threw the courts, pursuing a civil fraud case is expensive and the cops already leave thousands of criminal fraud cases un investigated due to lack of resources. But if somebody offers to make you a titan if you provide the raw materials, and then fails to deliver. It might be worth the effort. Edward

Ascendic Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.07.10 07:24:00 - [11] A true christian that was that hardcore would not be playing an internet spaceships game :P He would be playing God online.
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.10 07:42:00 - [12] Originally by: Chribba I say ban him! He caused a major discussion about religion in local, and me not being sober yet made it hard to follow the discussion as people talk so fast - so no! No religion scams!! /c Just ban religion from the game...problem solved. Relgion is the sanctuary for those that can't face reality... .oO(Like I care if someone is butthurt over that his flavour of superstions is being used in a scam...) It's not the "gods" I have a probem with...it's their self-rigtheous fanclub. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Cey Shirii Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.07.10 07:42:00 - [13] It seems like he's almost certainly trying to trick Christians into believing him. I think it's a very cute way to scam people, and very low. But I think it should be allowed in the game. In real life, people have sometimes relied on religion or other similar methods to scam, and I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed in EVE because you're afraid of "offending" someone. The whole "I'm going to Haiti" thing is pretty despicable, but that's the nature of EVE. It mimics real life in terms of scamming / politics / player relations. And that's one of the reasons I play the game. Because people have the ingenuity to come up with some really ****ed up methods of scamming and doing unfair things like this. CCP doesn't kick out scammers so long as they operate within the rules of the game.
Average Jack	Posted - 2010.07.10 08:23:00 - [14] Edited by: Average Jack on 10/07/2010 08:24:48 I endorse this product and/or service. Seriously though - religion is just one huge scam to begin with so where is the harm in extending this idea into the virtual world? Only a pitty i didn't think of it first. Btw. I'm a practacing satanist and need ISK for fresh virgin blood (i heard MMOs are a good place to find this). I'll pay you back 50 times what you loan me. Convo if interested. 100% legit!
Kai Saito	Posted - 2010.07.10 08:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Average Jack Seriously though - religion is just one huge scam to begin with so where is the harm in extending this idea into the virtual world? /thread
Ravion Magnus Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.10 09:37:00 - [16] Well, I'm sorry op but he's really in character as all religions scam. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o George Carlin FTW.
Zaqar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.07.10 09:38:00 - [17] Religion. Helping people survive in a world torn apart by religion. GG, ****s.
Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.10 09:41:00 - [18] This thread will end in tears.
iP0D	Posted - 2010.07.10 09:42:00 - [19] Religion leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Amarr Victor, a good example.
Dan O'Connor Cerberus Network Dignitas.	Posted - 2010.07.10 09:45:00 - [20] It's pretty slippery slope either way and he's using religion to scam. He either has to change his Bio and stop using his "faith" as a precedent to scam, or he shall be gone from the face of New Eden... Thou shall not bear false witness of each other? Or something? Item DB \| Sigs

Guilliman R Gallente PRO Space Hunters HUNTER'S BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2010.07.10 09:46:00 - [21] Isn't religion all about deceiving and scamming people? I fail to see the issue.
Bluefix Gnu Terror Corps	Posted - 2010.07.10 09:50:00 - [22] Originally by: Guilliman R Isn't religion all about deceiving and scamming people? I fail to see the issue. I was thinking the same. Prohibiting scams regarding religion would be contradictory.
lisuuu	Posted - 2010.07.10 09:56:00 - [23] Originally by: Guilliman R Isn't religion all about deceiving and scamming people? I fail to see the issue. QFT
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.10 09:57:00 - [24] Originally by: Zaboth Garadath As far as I can tell, many Christians would be really ****** with someone using their religion to deceive people with. .. no way religion was ever used to gain power and deceive people right .. I think it's in good spirit with said religion tbh ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 10:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Zaboth Garadath However, there are some out there, who use religion to scam with. This is sooooo tempting. Dammit. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Verrenici	Posted - 2010.07.10 10:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Zaboth Garadath So should this be allowed? As far as I can tell, many Christians would be really ****** with someone using their religion to deceive people with. haha! The entire Christian faith is based on lies and deception.
Simeon Tor	Posted - 2010.07.10 10:26:00 - [27] Edited by: Simeon Tor on 10/07/2010 10:27:28 I don't really see how he's using religion, he just said he's christian and that he's going to Haiti. Then he went on to do the most common scam in EVE. Now if he'd said something like "Send ISK to me and the one true god will spare you from eternal damnation..fire..brimstone..etc" then I think that should take a looking at. But this is hardly anything worth mentioning. Besides, he's spamming in local. Anything goes there from what I hear.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.07.10 10:33:00 - [28] I believe CCP didn't like people using Hanti to scam players. I don't see why using religion would be wrong though. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 10:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Estel Arador I believe CCP didn't like people using Hanti to scam players. I don't see why using religion would be wrong though. Exactly, tried and true, oldest and best scam ever. á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Dravius Luxor Minmatar Phoibe Enterprises	Posted - 2010.07.10 10:43:00 - [30] Religion is a scam, so why not use it to scam people? Hundreds of millions of people have been scammed by religion since human history began, if the most you're going to lose is a few isk... I think you're getting off lightly!

Hroya Gallente TerraNovae	Posted - 2010.07.10 10:50:00 - [31] A true <insert religious belief> is poor, for all claim to aid those in need and seeing as there are more people in need then not it really contradicts that religious people still have anything left to give.
Mr M Legion of Illuminated Social Rejects	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:04:00 - [32] For with God nothing shall be impossible. -Luke 1:37 Eve Tribune\|EVEgeek\|Firebrand Radio
Kerfira The Scope	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:04:00 - [33] Originally by: Average Jack Seriously though - religion is just one huge scam to begin with so where is the harm in extending this idea into the virtual world? Originally by: Guilliman R Isn't religion all about deceiving and scamming people? I fail to see the issue. Originally by: Verrenici haha! The entire Christian faith is based on lies and deception. Originally by: Dravius Luxor Religion is a scam, so why not use it to scam people? Hundreds of millions of people have been scammed by religion since human history began, if the most you're going to lose is a few isk... I think you're getting off lightly! These!! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
ZeJesus	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:09:00 - [34] It probably shouldn't be allowed. I could then spam: I'm a jew/chinese/afro therefore I'm giving away ISK. Send me... some lie. If you can pull religious cards then why not call racial ones as well? No, it shouldn't be allowed IMHO.
Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:10:00 - [35] You are really asking to permit some lies, and forbid some lies?
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:14:00 - [36] Originally by: Dravius Luxor Religion is a scam, so why not use it to scam people? Hundreds of millions of people have been scammed by religion since human history began, if the most you're going to lose is a few isk... I think you're getting off lightly! Precisely
ObviousTroll Alt Gallente Hulkageddon Orphanage HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:22:00 - [37] I've always wondered about people that believe in a God. Do you still believe in Santa Clause? The Easter Bunny? Tooth Fairy? Leprechauns? Honest Politicians? All these things have three things in common. 1)They are Superstitious myths from our ignorant ancestors that thought lightning was a God. 2)They don't exist. 3)Only fools believe in them.
Ticarus Hellbrandt	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:25:00 - [38] I like this idea, maybe people will use harry potter or frodo to run scams as they're all of the same level of realism
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:43:00 - [39] Originally by: ObviousTroll Alt I've always wondered about people that believe in a God. Do you still believe in Santa Clause? The Easter Bunny? Tooth Fairy? Leprechauns? Honest Politicians? All these things have three things in common. 1)They are Superstitious myths from our ignorant ancestors that thought lightning was a God. 2)They don't exist. 3)Only fools believe in them. Obvious troll is...wait nvm. It's actually way too easy to poke holes in beliefs of these people but hey, this isn't the place for it :P á I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything.
Belid Hagen Shade. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.07.10 11:45:00 - [40] Edited by: Belid Hagen on 10/07/2010 11:46:43 the replies in this tread is the reason why i love EVE.

Julius Rigel	Posted - 2010.07.10 13:02:00 - [41] If it pees off christians it should be encouraged!
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse	Posted - 2010.07.10 13:07:00 - [42] Because of leprechauns. Trolls? In my EVE forums? It's more likely than you think...
Eelis Kiy Gallente Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2010.07.10 13:13:00 - [43] If you don't send him isk your pod goo is replace by locusts ----------------------------- >>where the frack is my ship?<<
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.10 13:14:00 - [44] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 10/07/2010 13:17:23 Originally by: Taint why not ? had something in school about that jesus guy and i dont care hehe religion is for weak people who needs to have somthing to belive in. Originally by: ObviousTroll Alt I've always wondered about people that believe in a God. Do you still believe in Santa Clause? The Easter Bunny? Tooth Fairy? Leprechauns? Honest Politicians? All these things have three things in common. 1)They are Superstitious myths from our ignorant ancestors that thought lightning was a God. 2)They don't exist. 3)Only fools believe in them. Comments like these prove that there are stupid-spouting idiots on both sides of the fence. It's not the ignorant vs the edumacated, as they'd like us to believe. There are radical fanatics on BOTH sides of the fence. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
DuKackBoon	Posted - 2010.07.10 13:19:00 - [45] Originally by: Zaboth Garadath As far as I can tell, many Christians would be really ****** with someone using their religion to deceive people with. What do you think? Yet, the church has been doing it for centuries. So hell yes, it should be allowed.
elenasa	Posted - 2010.07.10 13:23:00 - [46] Originally by: Zaboth Garadath many Christians would be really ****** with someone using their religion to deceive people with. Yeah, afterall, it's their religion and only they should have the right to deceive people with it (as they've been doing for 2000yrs)
Winters Chill Amarr Shadow Legion.	Posted - 2010.07.10 13:26:00 - [47] for it is written ôVengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.ö Romans 12:19 Seriously though why don't you run along and get a bee in your bonnet about something socially functional as oppose to if so and so said whatever on an interactive toy.
Madner Kami Gallente Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub	Posted - 2010.07.10 13:32:00 - [48] Edited by: Madner Kami on 10/07/2010 13:32:01 Originally by: Zaboth Garadath So should this be allowed? Yes. Originally by: Zaboth Garadath As far as I can tell, many Christians would be really ****** with someone using their religion to deceive people with. What do you think? That these should pull the stick out of their arse and ignore idiots and the church is full of people, who use the believe to decieve people anyways, so meh.
Erayo	Posted - 2010.07.10 13:33:00 - [49] I agree with OP that this is wrong. Taking action against it would be a different matter altogether, not to mention there are no legal implications. In Roman-Dutch law, ignorant people are always at a loss...
Captain Megadeath	Posted - 2010.07.10 14:13:00 - [50] I at all these people ragin' at religon. I'll ask a question at all the religon haterz in this thread. Do you believe in the "Big Bang" theory? This is science/scientists theory that there is a devine power/God. But, hey...sheeple away...... Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails my name actually is short for catherine Yeah, Katie Door perhaps...... lol

Nephilius Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.10 14:14:00 - [51] Edited by: Nephilius on 10/07/2010 14:14:39 I fail to see how this should be banned. I think someone is getting all butthurt for one of two reasons...1)They fell for the scam, in which case you are an idiot. 2)You are a christian who takes offense at God being used as a tool for wealth in a game, in which case you are an idiot. Of course, there is the third option, that you are offended by the faith of others, in which case, you are an idiot. So I guess the solution is simple. 1) Chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. 2) Get a sense of humor or accept that some people are going to use God as a tool, in games and in real life. 3) Accept that not everyone believes the same as you do and get over it. Failure to utilize these solutions will guarantee future episodes of idiocy and continued butthurt for years to come. On a more intellectually honest note, I have to say that theism and athiesm are one and the same. Both require devotion to an ideal or symbol, both require preaching of said ideal or symbols to win over converts, and both are equally intolerant of any who do not or will not agree with their point of view. Hoping that the Mod Lock will rain fire and brimstone...or just lock, whichever is easier.
Dr Nefarius	Posted - 2010.07.10 14:36:00 - [52] Originally by: Guilliman R Isn't religion all about deceiving and scamming people? I fail to see the issue.
Luru Parz Dark Guard Corp	Posted - 2010.07.10 15:15:00 - [53] Yea, though I fly through the valley of the shadow of death more commonly known as nullsec, I will fear no scam: For thou art with me;
Sourpsalm Gallente Pubs 'n Clubs	Posted - 2010.07.10 15:15:00 - [54] Originally by: Captain Megadeath I at all these people ragin' at religon. I'll ask a question at all the religon haterz in this thread. Do you believe in the "Big Bang" theory? This is science/scientists theory that there is a devine power/God. But, hey...sheeple away...... ROFL. Next you'll tell us that intelligent design is the scientific theory that evolution is ******s. sheeples away*
Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.10 15:22:00 - [55] Originally by: Nephilius On a more intellectually honest note, I have to say that theism and athiesm are one and the same. Both require devotion to an ideal or symbol, both require preaching of said ideal or symbols to win over converts, and both are equally intolerant of any who do not or will not agree with their point of view. Err, no. Perhaps you are being honest, but certainly not intellectual. I liked the rest of your post though.
Musical Fist Gallente NAP Coalition	Posted - 2010.07.10 15:25:00 - [56] Wait WTF? Chribba is Swedish, I thought he was Dutch :( No smokes for you -- New NAP Coalition campaign started, want to be rich, powerful and elite? Join 'NAP Coalition' public channel for more info Bitter / mad, yup sounds about right
Nephilius Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.10 15:59:00 - [57] Originally by: Mar Sarrim Originally by: Nephilius On a more intellectually honest note, I have to say that theism and athiesm are one and the same. Both require devotion to an ideal or symbol, both require preaching of said ideal or symbols to win over converts, and both are equally intolerant of any who do not or will not agree with their point of view. Err, no. Perhaps you are being honest, but certainly not intellectual. I liked the rest of your post though. Explain how I am not being intellectually honest...in my experience, both are equally intolerant, both spend hours, if not more, in indoctrination with the aim to recruit believers in their ideology (they are both ideologies), and both whine and moan when the other side does something they don't like. If either side stepped off their soapboxes for any length of time, they might, and I stress might, be able to discern the fact that they are practically two branches of the same tree.
Sourpsalm Gallente Pubs 'n Clubs	Posted - 2010.07.10 16:20:00 - [58] Erm, I don't know about that. Obviously the most outspoken people are the most radical, but I'm yet to have atheists come to my door and give my books and pamphlets on their ideology to "spread their word". I can't think of any atheist "hot spots" in the world right now where atheist-driven violence runs rampant. I highly doubt there's any atheist organization with anywhere near the wealth and political reach of, say, the evangelicals in the States. The religion section at any bookstore I've ever been to is usually pretty huge; personally never seen an "atheist" section. I laugh every time some convicted felon in prison claims to "have found Jesus" during their parole hearing. I'm yet to hear about a case where a guy up for parole says he "lost God" lol. I'm an atheist, but I'm not anti-religion per se, as I don't see it as an ideology so much as a conclusion to deductive reasoning. I have many religious friends and we don't try to convert each other though we do express our views openly. As far as my experiences go, religion (the "big 3" in particular) seem to market their ideologies and are far more intolerant than most atheists.
Mael Sechnaill	Posted - 2010.07.10 16:52:00 - [59] Originally by: Taint why not ? had something in school about that jesus guy and i dont care hehe religion is for weak people who needs to have somthing to belive in. This post actually breaks the forum rules.
Mael Sechnaill	Posted - 2010.07.10 16:57:00 - [60] Originally by: Dravius Luxor Religion is a scam, so why not use it to scam people? Hundreds of millions of people have been scammed by religion since human history began, if the most you're going to lose is a few isk... I think you're getting off lightly! This too. You cannot acuse religion in this way, it is potentially offensive for those who are religious. Human beings are free. Free to believe what they want, and this freedom includes freedom to err, too. Yesterdays bigot priests are todays bigot priests, only that yeterday religion was science, today scince is religion. Anyway, I am not expecting anyone to agree, too familiar with the venting effects of this media called internet.

Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.10 17:05:00 - [61] Originally by: Sourpsalm Erm, I don't know about that. Obviously the most outspoken people are the most radical, but I'm yet to have atheists come to my door and give my books and pamphlets on their ideology to "spread their word". I can't think of any atheist "hot spots" in the world right now where atheist-driven violence runs rampant. I highly doubt there's any atheist organization with anywhere near the wealth and political reach of, say, the evangelicals in the States. The religion section at any bookstore I've ever been to is usually pretty huge; personally never seen an "atheist" section. I laugh every time some convicted felon in prison claims to "have found Jesus" during their parole hearing. I'm yet to hear about a case where a guy up for parole says he "lost God" lol. I'm an atheist, but I'm not anti-religion per se, as I don't see it as an ideology so much as a conclusion to deductive reasoning. I have many religious friends and we don't try to convert each other though we do express our views openly. As far as my experiences go, religion (the "big 3" in particular) seem to market their ideologies and are far more intolerant than most atheists. This. Being an atheist only means you do not buy into the hypothetical existence of a god/gods, i.e. you do not see any convincing evidence to support such a claim. Beyond that, it says nothing about ideology, ideals, way or life, etc. There is no "atheist doctrine", it is a very narrow and specific issue. Are there some people who try to ram atheism down the throats of others? Of course (Christopher Hitchens springs to mind), but that does not equate it to religion in any way. Anyway, if you are genuinely interested in this debate, feel free to pm me in-game, because I suspect this thread is going to be closed soon.
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2010.07.10 18:24:00 - [62] Originally by: Sourpsalm Originally by: Zaboth Garadath someone using their religion to deceive people with. This is just appalling. I simply cannot imagine people doing this; it must just be an EVE thing. This is the post of the month. I sprayed beer ------------- 'Don't try to learn Eve all at once, otherwise your brain will explode' - Albert Einstein ------------
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2010.07.10 18:33:00 - [63] Originally by: Mael Sechnaill Originally by: Dravius Luxor Religion is a scam, so why not use it to scam people? Hundreds of millions of people have been scammed by religion since human history began, if the most you're going to lose is a few isk... I think you're getting off lightly! Human beings are free. Free to believe what they want, and this freedom includes freedom to err, too. Yesterdays bigot priests are todays bigot priests, only that yeterday religion was science, today scince is religion. To challenge you respectfully, religions do not give you freedom to believe what you want. Religions demand that you beleive their view. Only without religion are you free to believe what you want. Science is the opposite of religion. Religions are a set of 'given' truths that cannot be challenged. Science is the act of questioning all 'truths'. Science is always wrong, just more right than it was. Science approaches truth, but any scientist knows that it is nowhere near truth yet, and possibly will never get there. Religion causes division and is an enemy of free thought, science has improved life expectancy by about x 2 since the 16th century. btw, god is irrelevent to this, since men make religions, god would be a bit more sensible ------------- 'Don't try to learn Eve all at once, otherwise your brain will explode' - Albert Einstein ------------
KaarBaak Minmatar Hell's Librarians Darkmatter Initiative	Posted - 2010.07.10 18:59:00 - [64] Originally by: Sourpsalm As far as my experiences go, religion (the "big 3" in particular) seem to market their ideologies and are far more intolerant than most atheists. As the responses in this thread clearly indicate.KB =vinur allra manna MetaGaming
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.10 21:20:00 - [65] Originally by: Sourpsalm Erm, I don't know about that. Obviously the most outspoken people are the most radical, but I'm yet to have atheists come to my door and give my books and pamphlets on their ideology to "spread their word". Personally, I rather have someone from a different religion knock on my door to politely ask me if I'd be interested in hearing their word than have condescending atheists ridicule that which they personally don't believe in. Quote: I can't think of any atheist "hot spots" in the world right now where atheist-driven violence runs rampant. I highly doubt there's any atheist organization with anywhere near the wealth and political reach of, say, the evangelicals in the States. The religion section at any bookstore I've ever been to is usually pretty huge; personally never seen an "atheist" section. I laugh every time some convicted felon in prison claims to "have found Jesus" during their parole hearing. I'm yet to hear about a case where a guy up for parole says he "lost God" lol. Some (if not most) relgions have a directive to "spread the word" of God. I have MANY religious friends, and not one has tried to burn, crucify, kill, or commit ANY FORM of violence in the name of God. That isn't to say that there aren't complete nutjobs out there. But to lump relgious people into one (usually calling them idiots for holding religious beliefs) actually shows how ignorant and intolerant they can be. Case in point? Read the idiotic "HAHA I R bettar than U becase imma atheist!" in this very thread. Funny, considering this is how they're trying to portray the other side to be. Quote: I'm an atheist, but I'm not anti-religion per se, as I don't see it as an ideology so much as a conclusion to deductive reasoning. I have many religious friends and we don't try to convert each other though we do express our views openly. Much respect to you for this. Science has neither conclusively proven or disproven the existence of God, though both camps hold interesting theories, to say the least. Quote: As far as my experiences go, religion (the "big 3" in particular) seem to market their ideologies and are far more intolerant than most atheists. In my opinion, and from my own experience, I could say atheists tend to be more intolerant and condescending than the majority of relgious people. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2010.07.10 21:25:00 - [66] Originally by: Sourpsalm (the "big 3" in particular) And the big three are, presumably, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism ^^ --- ☻♥ Problem? Therapy sessions ♥☻
Guilliman R Gallente PRO Space Hunters HUNTER'S BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2010.07.10 21:29:00 - [67] Edited by: Guilliman R on 10/07/2010 21:29:59 But, believing in something without scientific proof.. Look, believe all you want, I won't force you to do otherwise, but I will tell you you're an idiot from my perspective. And I only do so because you tell me you believe. That said, if you do believe in a religion, keep it to yourself. Don't poison the rest of the world by spreading your word of God. If people want to abuse that ingame, let them. Forcing US to abide by your believes isn't the way to go.
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.10 21:32:00 - [68] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 10/07/2010 13:35:49 Originally by: Taint why not ? had something in school about that jesus guy and i dont care hehe religion is for weak people who needs to have somthing to belive in. Originally by: ObviousTroll Alt I've always wondered about people that believe in a God. Do you still believe in Santa Clause? The Easter Bunny? Tooth Fairy? Leprechauns? Honest Politicians? All these things have three things in common. 1)They are Superstitious myths from our ignorant ancestors that thought lightning was a God. 2)They don't exist. 3)Only fools believe in them. Originally by: Julius Rigel If it pees off christians it should be encouraged! Comments like these prove that there are spiteful and hateful stupid-spouting idiots on both sides of the fence. It's not the "ignorant vs the edumacated", as they'd like us to believe. There are radical fanatics on BOTH sides of the fence. In fact, in these forums I can safely say the so-called atheists tend to be more radical and hateful. Take this thread as an example. LOL Find me athists killing for their none-belief. Until then this is for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHjsaEK4vnw ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Ace2001 Caldari S E A R	Posted - 2010.07.10 21:57:00 - [69] Originally by: Gloria Stitz Human beings are free. Free to believe what they want, and this freedom includes freedom to err, too. Yesterdays bigot priests are todays bigot priests, only that yeterday religion was science, today scince is religion. To challenge you respectfully, religions do not give you freedom to believe what you want. Religions demand that you beleive their view. Only without religion are you free to believe what you want. But technically, the act of believing in what you want to believe makes it religious for you, does it not? Quote: 5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. I could be taking this completely out of context/understanding it incorrectly, but we are all free. If you don't like nor want to believe a set way, then you're free to seek out a religion that's more aligned to you what you believe in/feel is correct. (Though, I suppose some religious nuts may want your head on a silver platter if you dare believe differently. But that doesn't mean you're not allowed to. Just means you gotta be careful about it.) I like to call myself Christian, but I believe differently than many Christians do. I still believe there's a God, and I pray to him every night before bed. BUT, I do not partake in protests against gays. I'm perfectly fine with them as long as they don't try and get any from my fat ass. I don't go to church. I don't send money in to churches. (My mom does, though. And she can't seem to understand why I always get so much money in while not even having a job, yet she pays her tithes and hardly gets anything back in return.) Why? Because I believe the bible is more like a set of guidelines; don't try to bone your neighbor's wife(His daughter is okay though as long as she's single and over 18!), don't steal, treat others as you wish for them to treat you, etc. NOT a GPS system that's supposed to lead you to eternal happiness. Well I've rambled enough. D: Time to shut my mouth.
Shirley Serious Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra	Posted - 2010.07.10 22:08:00 - [70] Probably actionable on grounds of: It's probably not the real Ron Kelley, therefore that person is impersonating someone else, giving a false identity and such, which probably goes against some part of the Eula. In the rather unlikely event they're really Ron Kelley, they're probably using EVE to advertise/promote something, which would fall under "The advertisement or sale of out of game goods and services not directly related to EVE online is prohibited." Yes. Yes, I am.

Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.10 22:20:00 - [71] Edited by: Mar Sarrim on 10/07/2010 22:21:22 Originally by: Ace2001 Why? Because I believe the bible is more like a set of guidelines; don't try to bone your neighbor's wife(His daughter is okay though as long as she's single and over 18!), don't steal, treat others as you wish for them to treat you, etc. NOT a GPS system that's supposed to lead you to eternal happiness. Well, that brings up one of the issues for non-believers with religion. Either it is the literal truth, and should be read as such. In that case, it is alright to prostitute your under age daughters (the story of Lot for example, Genesis 19), and God is a horribly jealous, vengeful and violent. Or, alternatively, the Bible should be interpreted and not taken literally. In that case, the question becomes: who does the interpretation, and what is the point of having organized religion if it depends on individual interpretation? Surely it is not surprising that people who do not believe in a personal God take issue with society being so heavily influenced by a movements based on such shaky foundations? I agree there is no need to personally insult people and their faith, but there is nothing wrong with criticising and, at times, fighting faith in itself. It affects us all, believers and atheists alike.
Ibn Minion	Posted - 2010.07.10 22:21:00 - [72] So <insert god> will smite EVE. <insert eve is dying comment> Leave your stuff on the way out please as there's no stuff in <insert heaven-like ideology>!!
Draco Starfire	Posted - 2010.07.10 22:37:00 - [73] religion is the biggest and most successful scam of all time so I don't see how this is at all out of the norm.
Dr Cupid The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2010.07.10 22:45:00 - [74] My corp
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.10 23:56:00 - [75] Food for thought: All religions claim to hold the truth, no exceptions. For that to be true, they should all tell the same story. While most religions do tell a similar story, they still will not accept the other story's to be true. Most religions have split into sub-religions. Other then that they deny facts that can be prooven without a shadow of a doubt on the basis that they are tests from God to test ones faith (dino's), they rule with fear (if you do not, you will be in hell) and have a real hard time being honest. Their esteemed leaders, who should be spreading gods word, are spreading their DNA instead and all this happens under the banner of a 'one true God'. While I do not want to be disrespectfull, and you should never generalise, I think it's quite hard to maintain that religion does much more then serve power hungry people. On a slightly more positive note: Most people that believe, do not follow their 'leaders' to the letter, they started thinking for themselves a while now. Kudo's to them, but, they are not part of the religion anymore, they just used religion as basis for their own way of going about things. Since my truth does not have to be your truth, and neither one is better, I dont care what people choose to believe, but as soon as you try to create a special case for your religion, claiming you are not being respected, I just have to lol, real hard. Please tell the people in africa, still being manipulated not to use condoms, that religion is respecting them, while they die of AIDS by the dozens. Please tell the people that got bombed by extremists that they where being respected. Please tell the gay community that they are being respected by religions. OR maybe STFU about respect before you cleaned your own closet, properly. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Annie Anomie Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2010.07.11 00:43:00 - [76] lol
BrundleMeth Caldari Temporal Mechanics	Posted - 2010.07.11 01:51:00 - [77] After reading the EVE forums I find it very easy to refuse to donate blood or sign an organ doner card...
John Ellsworth Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.11 02:05:00 - [78] Sounds like someone fell for a religious scam maybe? At any rate even if these types of scams are indeed in rather bad taste, if you moderate one , you must then moderate all. My suggestion is if you do want to donate or help a religious organization or faith , you should be doing that "out of game" -John Ellsworth
Rebecca Aventine	Posted - 2010.07.11 02:42:00 - [79] Edited by: Rebecca Aventine on 11/07/2010 02:43:42 No one posted George Carlin yet?
KaarBaak Minmatar Hell's Librarians Darkmatter Initiative	Posted - 2010.07.11 02:44:00 - [80] Edited by: KaarBaak on 11/07/2010 02:46:41 Originally by: Mar Sarrim Well, that brings up one of the issues for non-believers with religion. Either it is the literal truth, and should be read as such. In that case, it is alright to prostitute your under age daughters (the story of Lot for example, Genesis 19), and God is horribly jealous, vengeful and violent. Or, alternatively, the Bible should be interpreted and not taken literally. In that case, the question becomes: who does the interpretation, and what is the point of having organized religion if it depends on individual interpretation? Surely it is not surprising that people who do not believe in a personal God take issue with society being so heavily influenced by a movement that is based on such shaky foundations? I agree there is no need to personally insult people and their faith, but there is nothing wrong with criticising and, at times, fighting faith in itself. It affects us all, believers and atheists alike. You seem to have a 3d graders understanding of Christianity and the Bible. I don't mean that as an insult...it is factually correct. Your statements above are equivalent to my saying stars are little balls of light far far away. Literraly correct, but a childish description of a fairly complex topic. I'm not a religious person, but statements like yours demonstrate the ignorance that leads to conflict. Your lack of understanding of Christianity is no different than most Christians misunderstanding Islam or most Muslims' misunderstanding of Jews. KB EDIT: The funny thing is, like most so-called "macroers" in-game, the person to which the OP refers was not shown to be scammer. How does anyone know that he is not telling the truth? =vinur allra manna MetaGaming

Kewso	Posted - 2010.07.11 03:34:00 - [81] think christians are bad don't get us started on the freaking jews or the muslims sheesh talk about scammers, just watch your wallet when dealing with jew scams those are the worst, makes the christian scams look tame :P
Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:05:00 - [82] Originally by: KaarBaak You seem to have a 3d graders understanding of Christianity and the Bible. I don't mean that as an insult...it is factually correct. [...] Literraly correct, but a childish description of a fairly complex topic. I take offense to that! I am confident that with a little bit of preparation I could easily win a debate against a fourth, or perhaps even an immature fifth grader! Anyway, if you are looking for complexity in an EVE thread, you may be better off on MD about mineral prices. However, feel free to enlighten me (it's way more interesting than name-calling people you don't know anything about) in this thread, or contact through eve mail to set me straight. Literal interpretation v. subjective/personal interpretation is a theological war that is at the moment raging not only through Christianity (do I really need to give you examples?) but also through Islam and, to a lesser extent, Judaism and Hinduism. The problem is that there is no satisfactory answer to end that debate: one leads to unacceptable practical consequences, whereas the other leads to inconsistency and irrationality. Is there a middle (complex?) ground? I yet have to hear one that keep the essential claims of religion intact. But I'm serious, I'm happy to be enlightened by other people's (your) opinions.
Spades Slick Caldari Rookies Academy Elite The Compass	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:07:00 - [83] Looked at first post yesterday. Thought, "meh, not interested in topic, wonder what will come of it?" Return and check last page. Think to self "wonder if this has deteroriated into a theological debate?" while page loa-- oh. Yeah, it has. Leaves thread.
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:08:00 - [84] There was never a question of where this thread was going, only how fast it would get there.
Baillif Red Mist Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:14:00 - [85] Originally by: Felix Esperium There was never a question of where this thread was going, only how fast it would get there. Yup
Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:16:00 - [86] Originally by: Felix Esperium There was never a question of where this thread was going, only how fast it would get there. Yeah, as I wrote in a post above, this thread should have been locked already or, at the very least, moved to some dark place where nobody visits. But hey, as long as its open, why not have some fun with it?
Mella Elcus	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:23:00 - [87] Looking through human history there has been lots of different religions all claiming to be the one true faith. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong... (Sorry for derailing this thread even further )
Spades Slick Caldari Rookies Academy Elite The Compass	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:25:00 - [88] Edited by: Spades Slick on 11/07/2010 05:25:24 And this, kids, is why Agnosticism is the answer. You can't definitively prove there isn't a god. You can't prove that there is. So just accept that God may or may not exist!
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:26:00 - [89] Originally by: Mella Elcus Looking through human history there has been lots of different religions all claiming to be the one true faith. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong... I like this post
cBOLTSON Caldari Reaction Theory Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:51:00 - [90] Oh boy, I just had to reply to this one I personally respect everyones decision to believe what the hell they want. So at the same time let us 'non religious folk' (aka most normal people....) not have to adhear to any rules. Its a game, unless you are personally being abused or verbally assaulted, then let people scam away! Im not religious myself, however I do believe in higher things. I just dont think its an old guy with with ha beard.... and if there is a god, he sure has a very crude sense of humor.

Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:51:00 - [91] Edited by: Mar Sarrim on 11/07/2010 05:53:26 Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 11/07/2010 05:25:24 And this, kids, is why Agnosticism is the answer. You can't definitively prove there isn't a god. You can't prove that there is. So just accept that God may or may not exist! Meh, agnostics are atheists who are afraid to admit it. (Or it just becomes semantics: the "God hypothesis" obviously exists - i.e. God "may" exist - but should be rejected within any reasonable margin of error) By the way, you can never "definitively prove" that something doesn't exist, whether it is God or Santa. Hence the usefulness of logic and hypotheses!
Leto AtradeisII	Posted - 2010.07.11 06:01:00 - [92] Edited by: Leto AtradeisII on 11/07/2010 06:03:26 Edited by: Leto AtradeisII on 11/07/2010 06:02:09 points to the Revelations II trailer Religion is just another tool to segregate people from one another. No matter what your faith, be it Abrahamic in nature or not, in all of human history, -theism's have been used to make one self better than any other people. Lets look at a basic tenant of the Abrahamic religions: believe in my God or go to hell. Go through this process to better yourself; yes but from whom? its the same thing with Scientology, you go through a "machine" to make yourself appear higher within the collective only to further differentiate yourself from those would refuse to believe, or are behind you in line going through the "process." who benefits most? those on top of course. They can dictate what is "proper" belief; their version of what is truth and reality, Thomas Aquinas for example. Lets look at the major gospels in the new testement. Those gospels where DECIDED BY MAN as to what version of Jesus, later generations will see. I dont really care that you have religious beliefs but, to use it to justify your higher divinity among other people, is oppression. The only way to stop the oppression is to reject it entirely and create your own experience dealing with nature and the divine. Once you fall into the the words of men, you automatically become a tool for others in their quest for control - over nature, man, and beast. this is not to say that science is any better, but the scientific process is what makes the words of these types of man different from those claiming authority with theology. Science gives us the tools and ability to argue for ourselves the claims made by other men. Not all science is dogma, but with increasing proof everyday, through the educational systems, their deductive logic on the mechanics of our universe - some of these principles become rules of nature. If you do not agree with a conclusion you can go forth and try to prove it wrong. That's the main difference between religion and science: believe what is dictated to me, or "I will prove for myself what is the truth." As for the OP, using religion is just another tool to scam people, why should it be protected, when its purpose becomes evident. ps IBTL.
Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.11 06:20:00 - [93] Originally by: Leto AtradeisII ps IBTL. My Moderator, My Moderator, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Us? (Psalm 22)
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.11 19:10:00 - [94] Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 11/07/2010 05:25:24 And this, kids, is why Agnosticism is the answer. You can't definitively prove there isn't a god. You can't prove that there is. So just accept that God may or may not exist! Are you agnostic about the tooth fairy? Are you agnostic about the santa claus? Are you agnostic about the peter pan? Are you agnostic about russells teapots? No you say? Then "agnosticism" is nothing but an attempt to make religion into something special...kidna like a closet theist. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.11 19:30:00 - [95] Originally by: Mr M For with God nothing shall be impossible. -Luke 1:37 Quote: But if this charge is true, and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) This is clearly a signature.
Spades Slick Caldari Rookies Academy Elite	Posted - 2010.07.11 19:34:00 - [96] Edited by: Spades Slick on 11/07/2010 19:36:10 Originally by: AterraX Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 11/07/2010 05:25:24 And this, kids, is why Agnosticism is the answer. You can't definitively prove there isn't a god. You can't prove that there is. So just accept that God may or may not exist! Are you agnostic about the tooth fairy? Are you agnostic about the santa claus? Are you agnostic about the peter pan? Are you agnostic about russells teapots? No you say? Then "agnosticism" is nothing but an attempt to make religion into something special...kidna like a closet theist. The first three characters/beings/concepts you have given above are fabrications traceable to storytellers -- that is, they were created solely out of the imagination of their creators, and have no potential to exist simply because they are the product of a human thought process. Deities (or at any rate, beings with ascended functions/perceptions of the universe/powers/abilities/whatever) are a wholly separate concept, simply because once you discard any personification (God, Zeus, the Sun Spirit, whatever the hell the religion worships), you still have the potential for such a being to exist, even if it's completely different from those worshiper's beliefs. You may claim otherwise, but the simple fact is, once you discard the anthropomorphic content from the ideas of Santa, Peter Pan, and the Tooth Fairy, they simply have no bearing beyond the selfish human worldview. A being that brings toys to every human on the planet Earth? An eternally young human boy that lives in world deemed fantastic by typical human standards? A small human-like creature that takes the teeth of humans and leaves currency behind? All of these are self-centered concepts, impossible to take out of context of human civilization and/or society. A superhuman (note that I use the prefix etymologically, in this case something ABOVE humans) being, perhaps not even perceptible to our senses at all times, is something that can exist without humanity; I disagree with the three primary monotheisms here, because they attempt to apply humanity to such beings (He, or the feminists that call God She -- I just call God 'it' when I deign to debate someone the merits of Christianity) because such a personification causes the exact reaction you gave -- atheists are like "HURR WHAT ABOUT THE TOOTH FAIRY THAT'S A HUMANLIKE THING WITH SUPERPOWERS TOO". I love your little Dawkins bit there, love to see that people can't think of analogies/ideas on their own. Anyways, I'm not equally respecting atheism and theism, like Mr. Dawkins would have you believe; I simply concede that both have an equal chance of being true, and until such time as we can explore our entire universe in all dimensions and methods of perception, and conclusively show that there are 'gods' tucked away in a solar system halfway across the universe (or are not, in atheism's case), it is impossible to be conclusive in judging either party's argument. Unless atheists acknowledge that their studies are based solely on the limitations (and perhaps egocentricity, believing we have the ability to perceive everything in the universe) of human studies, they come off as little more as little children screaming "PROVE IT" as loudly as they can. Likewise, theists must acknowledge that while they may believe in their particular deity(ies), there is no way to conclusively prove it; otherwise, they are just people that sit in a burning house, close their eyes, and pretend there isn't a fire raging around them, because that's what they want to believe.
Mella Elcus	Posted - 2010.07.11 19:52:00 - [97] Originally by: Spades Slick Unless atheists acknowledge that their studies are based solely on the limitations (and perhaps egocentricity, believing we have the ability to perceive everything in the universe) of human studies, they come off as little more as little children screaming "PROVE IT" as loudly as they can. But isn't that what Atheism is all about? That's why it's called the big bang theory, or the theory of relativity. Isn't that what separates theism from atheism? While theists in one way or another claims to already have all the answers an atheist is still actively looking for answers and/or acknowledges that we will probably never know for sure.
Vexidious	Posted - 2010.07.11 20:01:00 - [98] Originally by: Spades Slick I love your little Dawkins bit there, love to see that people can't think of analogies/ideas on their own. Anyways, I'm not equally respecting atheism and theism, like Mr. Dawkins would have you believe; I simply concede that both have an equal chance of being true... Equal? ROFLMAO!
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.11 21:02:00 - [99] Originally by: Spades Slick The first three characters/beings/concepts you have given above are fabrications traceable to storytellers -- that is, they were created solely out of the imagination of their creators, and have no potential to exist simply because they are the product of a human thought process. You just descrived religion...nice own goal. Quote: Deities (or at any rate, beings with ascended functions/perceptions of the universe/powers/abilities/whatever) are a wholly separate concept, simply because once you discard any personification (God, Zeus, the Sun Spirit, whatever the hell the religion worships), you still have the potential for such a being to exist, even if it's completely different from those worshiper's beliefs. You may claim otherwise, but the simple fact is, once you discard the anthropomorphic content from the ideas of Santa, Peter Pan, and the Tooth Fairy, they simply have no bearing beyond the selfish human worldview. A being that brings toys to every human on the planet Earth? An eternally young human boy that lives in world deemed fantastic by typical human standards? A small human-like creature that takes the teeth of humans and leaves currency behind? No, you want them to be different, problem is, that they are not. Quote: All of these are self-centered concepts, impossible to take out of context of human civilization and/or society. A superhuman (note that I use the prefix etymologically, in this case something ABOVE humans) being, perhaps not even perceptible to our senses at all times, is something that can exist without humanity; I disagree with the three primary monotheisms here, because they attempt to apply humanity to such beings (He, or the feminists that call God She -- I just call God 'it' when I deign to debate someone the merits of Christianity) because such a personification causes the exact reaction you gave -- atheists are like "HURR WHAT ABOUT THE TOOTH FAIRY THAT'S A HUMANLIKE THING WITH SUPERPOWERS TOO". I can debunk that quite simple Are you agnostic about "thor"? Are you agnostic about "zeus"? Are you agnostic about "ra"? Or are you just agnostic about current superstions? Quote: I love your little Dawkins bit there, love to see that people can't think of analogies/ideas on their own. Anyways, I'm not equally respecting atheism and theism, like Mr. Dawkins would have you believe; I simply concede that both have an equal chance of being true, and until such time as we can explore our entire universe in all dimensions and methods of perception, and conclusively show that there are 'gods' tucked away in a solar system halfway across the universe (or are not, in atheism's case), it is impossible to be conclusive in judging either party's argument. Unless atheists acknowledge that their studies are based solely on the limitations (and perhaps egocentricity, believing we have the ability to perceive everything in the universe) of human studies, they come off as little more as little children screaming "PROVE IT" as loudly as they can. Likewise, theists must acknowledge that while they may believe in their particular deity(ies), there is no way to conclusively prove it; otherwise, they are just people that sit in a burning house, close their eyes, and pretend there isn't a fire raging around them, because that's what they want to believe. Read above...and saying "we can't prove either way" dosn't mean that religon has any validity...just like other stupid unfounded claims. Quote: EDIT: Sigh... I told myself I WOULDN'T be getting into this debate... You lie to yourself...surprise? ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Spades Slick Caldari Rookies Academy Elite	Posted - 2010.07.11 21:02:00 - [100] Edited by: Spades Slick on 11/07/2010 21:14:52 Originally by: Mella Elcus Originally by: Spades Slick Unless atheists acknowledge that their studies are based solely on the limitations (and perhaps egocentricity, believing we have the ability to perceive everything in the universe) of human studies, they come off as little more as little children screaming "PROVE IT" as loudly as they can. But isn't that what Atheism is all about? That's why it's called the big bang theory, or the theory of relativity. Isn't that what separates theism from atheism? While theists in one way or another claims to already have all the answers an atheist is still actively looking for answers and/or acknowledges that we will probably never know for sure. Quote: acknowledges that we will probably never know for sure. Oh, hey, look, agnosticism. And evidently, I chose the wrong wording. To be sure, modern religions are all bull****, made with all those feel-good Aesop's Fables written in to make sure everyone follows moral codes, at least if they are religious people. When I say 'theism', I mean it in the most literal definition -- the belief that there is a being, or group of beings, with 'power' (we can't really use this term in this context, but it's the best fit) 'superior' to that of humans. Certainly I am not claiming that the religions where some god being (that looks exactly like humans, inexplicably) impregnates a human woman for no particular reason are true or, indeed, rational. I am simply accepting the overall belief in such beings as one that may be true.

Spades Slick Caldari Rookies Academy Elite	Posted - 2010.07.11 21:09:00 - [101] Edited by: Spades Slick on 11/07/2010 21:17:23 Originally by: AterraX You just descrived religion...nice own goal. No, you want them to be different, problem is, that they are not. I can debunk that quite simple Are you agnostic about "thor"? Are you agnostic about "zeus"? Are you agnostic about "ra"? Or are you just agnostic about current superstions? Read above...and saying "we can't prove either way" dosn't mean that religon has any validity...just like other stupid unfounded claims. You lie to yourself...surprise? You make it abundantly clear that you didn't read a word I wrote, and cling instead to your 'tooth fairy hypothesis'. Read what I wrote again; I never said religions were right in their beliefs about some all-powerful being deciding to give a human magic powers to make an ocean split apart -- I specifically said "I don't agree with the current religions." Again, you throw these humanized beings at me -- ancient mythological gods -- as if I didn't say "these personifications are ridiculous". If you consider yourself an atheist, then you prove to be among the shallow end of these individuals -- the ones, that is, that simply says that anyone that even gives consideration to the thought that superhuman beings may exist are idiots. My problem isn't with atheists debunking modern religions, as all of them are human-twisted egocentric storybooks meant to make people comfortable with dying. My problem is with them (atheists) saying "well, because we can't detect them, there must be nothing with what we would consider 'godly' powers in existence" and presume they're right. No, you can NOT make such a definitive statement, and if you agree on that point, then you are not atheist -- you are agnostic. Originally by: Vexidious Originally by: Spades Slick I love your little Dawkins bit there, love to see that people can't think of analogies/ideas on their own. Anyways, I'm not equally respecting atheism and theism, like Mr. Dawkins would have you believe; I simply concede that both have an equal chance of being true... Equal? ROFLMAO! Yep. Unless you have a universe-wide monitoring system that can examine all wavelengths of the (known) EM spectrum and, hell, can also see every single atom in our universe -- well, if you're into string theory, every quantum string in existence? Oh, you don't? Then you can not conclusively say 'gods' don't exist.
Mella Elcus	Posted - 2010.07.11 21:20:00 - [102] Originally by: Spades Slick Oh, hey, look, agnosticism. Well, saying that one day humanity will know and understand everything there is to know is kinda absurd though. On top of that you can't logically prove that something doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there exists some kind of higher power, I'm just saying that there will always be things that can be explained as the works of a higher power.
Spades Slick Caldari Rookies Academy Elite	Posted - 2010.07.11 21:26:00 - [103] Edited by: Spades Slick on 11/07/2010 21:27:15 Originally by: Mella Elcus Originally by: Spades Slick Oh, hey, look, agnosticism. Well, saying that one day humanity will know and understand everything there is to know is kinda absurd though. On top of that you can't logically prove that something doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there exists some kind of higher power, I'm just saying that there will always be things that can be explained as the works of a higher power. Not once did I say anything about earth mechanics being influenced by deities -- 'higher powers'. Hell, half my post was about how strongly I dislike our egocentricity -- EVERYTHING in the universe/galaxy has to care about us for some reason, eh? We're special, apparently. And you're right, you can't logically prove something doesn't exist, so atheism is at best a frivolous pursuit. They can debunk the unproven beliefs that today's theists hold -- water into wine and other such jazz -- but they can NEVER conclusively say "gods/deities/higher powers don't exist" unless they have some way to examine the universe in its entirety. Since we shall never have such omniscience, it is therefore impossible to do what most of today's bandwagon atheists do and just say, "welp, we can't turn water into wine, therefore gods can't exist," end proof. Agnosticism, I guess, is just a revamped subset of atheists; rather than judging 'nothing exists', we say 'from what we know, nothing exists, but we must accept we don't know everything'.
Athena Machina Caldari SPORADIC MOVEMENT	Posted - 2010.07.11 21:41:00 - [104] Religion is farce! The Goa'uld are our one true gods! Kneel before your masters!! Anyone found not kneeling will be tattooed with Shol'va on their forehead. Its a real buzzkill, chiicks wont even come close to you!
Dan O'Connor Cerberus Network Dignitas.	Posted - 2010.07.11 22:00:00 - [105] Originally by: Athena Machina Religion is farce! The Goa'uld are our one true gods! Kneel before your masters!! Anyone found not kneeling will be tattooed with Shol'va on their forehead. Its a real buzzkill, chiicks wont even come close to you! My pod dies FREE!! Item DB \| Sigs
Athena Machina Caldari SPORADIC MOVEMENT	Posted - 2010.07.11 22:05:00 - [106] Originally by: Dan O'Connor Originally by: Athena Machina Religion is farce! The Goa'uld are our one true gods! Kneel before your masters!! Anyone found not kneeling will be tattooed with Shol'va on their forehead. Its a real buzzkill, chiicks wont even come close to you! My pod dies FREE!! Fool! Lord <insert religious leader's name> will skin you alive and then tickle you with feathers! Your misery will be very umm....miserable!
Satsujinn	Posted - 2010.07.11 22:41:00 - [107] One thing I love about this type of subject is the rat-holes some ppl go into and love to reveal about themselves... Lets examine what we have learned .. The OP wanted to bring condemn those that scammed using religion into the pit of the everlasting ban-hammer. Many agreed Many professed they could not give a flying f*rt Many thought that those that agreed were themselves demented and insecure And Chribba is a Swede that gets drunk (would you buy a used car from THIS man?) In all a very successful venting and informative nashing of psycho-babble .... But what has been achieved?
Drifter Spaceblade Caldari People of Random Nature	Posted - 2010.07.11 23:09:00 - [108] I'm a Christian, and I've found it funny that so many want to believe in theories like evolution or the big bang, which are nothing more than best guesses, rather than God who created everything. It takes more FAITH to believe all this happened randomly, than it takes to believe God made it. Atheists: Big bang theory = POOF IT HAPPENED. Evolutionary theory = We're apes! Christians: God made the universe. God made us. And people make fun of Christians :p Atheists sound freaking crazy. Oh.. Atheism is a RELIGION in and of itself.
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.07.11 23:18:00 - [109] Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade I'm a Christian, and I've found it funny that so many want to believe in theories like evolution or the big bang, which are nothing more than best guesses, rather than God who created everything. It takes more FAITH to believe all this happened randomly, than it takes to believe God made it. Atheists: Big bang theory = POOF IT HAPPENED. Evolutionary theory = We're apes! Christians: God made the universe. God made us. And people make fun of Christians :p Atheists sound freaking crazy. Oh.. Atheism is a RELIGION in and of itself. there is no big enough.
Goram Azul	Posted - 2010.07.11 23:20:00 - [110] This has predictably turned into a debate about religion and atheism. The internet is full of debates like this; perhaps you all should take the debate there. The more interesting question is the original one: should someone be allowed to use religion, or anything some people have strong beliefs in, to scam others in eve? I say, absolutely. We can't start silencing people for every single thing that others might find offensive. Free speech all the way, baby.

Bagrista	Posted - 2010.07.12 00:35:00 - [111] ITT: Neckbearded college dropouts trying to sound smart arguing about religion while quoting wikipedia. This is my annoying sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Namira Sable Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.07.12 00:58:00 - [112] Originally by: Bagrista ITT: Neckbearded college dropouts trying to sound smart arguing about religion while quoting wikipedia. But I haven not posted yet... oh wait
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2010.07.12 00:58:00 - [113] This is not going to end well ... -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Baillif Red Mist Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.12 01:08:00 - [114] Edited by: Baillif on 12/07/2010 01:08:04 I'm surprised you guys haven't gotten this thread locked yet, but I think its probably because everyone is in agreement with the whole religion is a scam thing. We are all grizzled bastards
Eternum Praetorian Method In Khaos	Posted - 2010.07.12 01:11:00 - [115] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 12/07/2010 01:12:34 Allow me to explain You are all human and fallible so what you think you know about 1.) god/religion and 2.) your tiny view of science and your "everything theory" can go [something something blank blank edited for content] There is one constant in the universe and that is the purveyance of the Human ego, ergo this thread. Study psychology, and then you might come to understand how so utterly full of crap the lot of you are. End Transmission. Ninja Edit: Eternum slaps someones savior and then kicks Steve Hawkins off of his wheelchair.
Bond69	Posted - 2010.07.12 01:22:00 - [116] Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade I'm a Christian, and I've found it funny that so many want to believe in theories like evolution or the big bang, which are nothing more than best guesses, rather than God who created everything. It takes more FAITH to believe all this happened randomly, than it takes to believe God made it. Atheists: Big bang theory = POOF IT HAPPENED. Evolutionary theory = We're apes! Christians: God made the universe. God made us. And people make fun of Christians :p Atheists sound freaking crazy. Oh.. Atheism is a RELIGION in and of itself. This is exactly what religion creates. Ignorance with a touch of ****ation. And its flaunted in our faces. And in return you demand respect and equality? lol An atheist sees christianity (and other religions) the same way they see zeus/thor/... Atheists laughs at you, a christian would torture you to death if he still had the power to do it (history is a * isnt it). Todays mainstream religions are so vague because they got * slapped so hard by science (method of solving and understanding stuff) that we had to coin a new word for your god - god of the gaps. Religion is ****ed. We dont care about your feelings. Welcome to the internet - place where religions come to die.
liquidsteal	Posted - 2010.07.12 02:26:00 - [117] I look at ones belief or non belief like this. "If there isnt a God as some of you say ,Im out nothing. But as there is a God as I believe ,your out everything, are you athiest and satanist really willing to risk burning in hell for eternity. NOT I. God bless all the believers
Optical Illusion Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.12 02:31:00 - [118] Suicide bombers are scammed with religion. They never get there virgins.
Boern Leedah	Posted - 2010.07.12 02:35:00 - [119] Originally by: liquidsteal I look at ones belief or non belief like this. "If there isnt a God as some of you say ,Im out nothing. But as there is a God as I believe ,your out everything, are you athiest and satanist really willing to risk burning in hell for eternity. NOT I. God bless all the believers And if there isn't a god and magical post-life eternal wonderland, then you face nonexistence. Most human beings - well, hell, most living creatures in general - are terrified at the prospect of not... well, being. We just happen to have the benefit of higher mental functions and the ability to create a fantasy world to assuage our fears. How convenient.
Drifter Spaceblade Caldari People of Random Nature	Posted - 2010.07.12 03:11:00 - [120] Edited by: Drifter Spaceblade on 12/07/2010 03:12:52 Edited by: Drifter Spaceblade on 12/07/2010 03:11:26 Originally by: Bond69 Todays mainstream religions are so vague because they got *** slapped so hard by science (method of solving and understanding stuff) that we had to coin a new word for your god - god of the gaps. Religion is **ed. We dont care about your feelings. Welcome to the internet - place where religions come to die. Care to show me where science *** slapped Christianity? Go ahead and name ONE SINGLE TIME that science disproved the 2000 year old Bible. Because I can name many times where science PROVED the Bible right. Bring it. Oh, and Boern, you completely missed the point of what you quoted. Grats on your higher brain functions there

SammyullJackson	Posted - 2010.07.12 03:16:00 - [121] Edited by: SammyullJackson on 12/07/2010 03:17:47 Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade Originally by: Bond69 Todays mainstream religions are so vague because they got *** slapped so hard by science (method of solving and understanding stuff) that we had to coin a new word for your god - god of the gaps. Religion is **ed. We dont care about your feelings. Welcome to the internet - place where religions come to die. Care to show me where science *** slapped Christianity? Go ahead and name ONE SIGNEL TIME that science disproved the 2000 year old Bible. Because I can name many times where science PROVED the Bible right. Bring it. Uh... how about that one time we proved the Earth was older than, what does the Bible say, 4000 years? So that kinda ruins the whole first chapter(s)?/verses/whatever it's divided into. You know, the whole 'creation' thing. (seriously, though, how can you be so dense? This omnipotent being just poofed into existence from nothing a planet? But it's unbelievable that such a phenomena occurred WITHOUT the aid of such a being? Anyways)- Okay, your turn. What did science prove right in the Bible? You only get points for proving some fantastic, couldn't-be-natural event (just as I only get points for disproving them). You don't get points for proving that there was a man named Jesus of Nazareth, or that there really was a mountain at such and such a location.
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.07.12 03:18:00 - [122] humans riding dinosaurs. that is all.
Kewso	Posted - 2010.07.12 03:32:00 - [123] Beware of space jews that scam your wallets and space muslims suicide bombing your hulks I guess the space christians felt left out... I heard spacejews were good at gas cloud mining...
Bond69	Posted - 2010.07.12 04:39:00 - [124] Quote: I look at ones belief or non belief like this. "If there isnt a God as some of you say ,Im out nothing. But as there is a God as I believe ,your out everything, are you athiest and satanist really willing to risk burning in hell for eternity. NOT I. God bless all the believers And if its some other of the 4235289512364 religions that are right? Not to forget the mutations within christianity itself... each claiming to KNOW the truth. And LOL at bolded part! Paranoia induced by religion. Yep, religion is THAT low. Quote: Care to show me where science *** slapped Christianity? Go ahead and name ONE SINGLE TIME that science disproved the 2000 year old Bible. Because I can name many times where science PROVED the Bible right. Is there a case it wasnt so whenever religion claimed something? Every claim about universe and life was wrong. From earth creation, solar system, life "creation", human lifespan, diseases, natural disasters, ... And iirc zombies were quite common thing in a bible; too bad that romans missed them in their notes while writing down even trivial stuff. Yep, religion got * slapped out of everything that mattered. Result: humanity exploded in numbers, longevity and technological advancements. Everywhere religion manages to get a grip on society death is sure to follow as shown clearly in africa. And imagine older religions having their equivalent of RIAA.. jesus would be ed. Yeah, desert religions had to copy other religions! And i just have to quote this gem again! Just for lols Quote:** Atheists: Big bang theory = POOF IT HAPPENED. Evolutionary theory = We're apes!
Kesta Sovek Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.07.12 04:47:00 - [125] I thought using people's faith to trick them into giving you money was the whole point of organized religion...
Sadian	Posted - 2010.07.12 05:36:00 - [126] Edited by: Sadian on 12/07/2010 05:38:01 At this point in Western culture you can mock Christians and Christianity to your hearts content. Nobody seems to care. You can even mock the Buddhists and the Hindus but very few people do that. You just can't mock the Jews or the Muslims. Why should Eve Online be any different? Sadian
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.07.12 05:41:00 - [127] Welcome to Atheism online Stop "preaching" your religion (atheism) to everyone else, else you're no better than those you satarise. Oh wait, you're all so much smarter than everyone else IMO CCP should probably lock this thread for religous content.. EVE Trivia EVE History
Killer Gandry Caldari TerraNovae	Posted - 2010.07.12 05:43:00 - [128] ToS is pretty clear about it. 9.You may not advertise, employ, market, or promote any form of solicitation û including pyramid schemes and chain letters û in the EVE Online game world or on the website. Just petition him and let CCP sort it.
Koyama Ise Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.12 06:55:00 - [129] ITT: Poe's Law and Trolls ______________________________ There is not enough EVE Online in your toast.
Spades Slick Caldari Rookies Academy Elite	Posted - 2010.07.12 07:03:00 - [130] Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade Atheists: Big bang theory = POOF IT HAPPENED. Monotheists (Christians in particular): Creationism = POOF OMNIPOTENT BEING CREATED SOMETHING FROM NOTHING.

Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.12 07:13:00 - [131] Edited by: Ressiv on 12/07/2010 07:16:27 Originally by: Kewso ~~I heard spacejews were good at gas cloud mining...~~ Tasteless, and offending, and reported ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Satsujinn	Posted - 2010.07.12 09:13:00 - [132] Edited by: Satsujinn on 12/07/2010 09:14:28 Originally by: Killer Gandry ToS is pretty clear about it. 9.You may not advertise, employ, market, or promote any form of solicitation û including pyramid schemes and chain letters û in the EVE Online game world or on the website. See, this is how I interpret the above statement. ppl can not beg through the medium of Eve or its web site (as that is what solicitation is basically). Scamming is not begging, and the confusing part is begging is the least destructive of the two disiplines amirite?
Krxon Blade SandStorm.	Posted - 2010.07.12 09:30:00 - [133] How come that this thread is still not locked? As I know, discussing religion here is not allowed. Some time ago, when I asked if Adam played EvE, thread was locked with lightning speed. -- EVE related flash and other stuff
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad Motivated and Determined	Posted - 2010.07.12 10:04:00 - [134] hi, as dedicated believers we at LETHAL DEATH SQUAD are appalled by this shameless and blasphemous act. Send any amount of ISK to LDS and we will add it into our newly approved "heretic" fund. Once we reach 10 billion ISK we will hire mercs to make these heretics confess and then send them to hell. . sig says "We Are Recruiting!"
JS LiamElms Gallente Zor Industries Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.12 10:25:00 - [135] hahahhahahahhahahaha and to those that tell us how its actually against the law and **** like that... hahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha seriously! get out -_-
The Wicked1	Posted - 2010.07.12 10:30:00 - [136] Really if people are really (insert insult here) enough to believe in some kind of ethereal spirit then they deserve to get scammed by someone using that belief against them. Seriously. Originally by: "CCP Fallout" Originally by: "FunTimeBarbie" Dumb dee dumb dee da daldary dumb dumb. DURPY DURP DURP!!!!! ... I durped you with a lock.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.07.12 10:47:00 - [137] Isn't that what religion is for?
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.12 10:53:00 - [138] Originally by: Bond69 This is exactly what religion creates. Ignorance with a touch of ****ation. And its flaunted in our faces. And in return you demand respect and equality? lol An atheist sees christianity (and other religions) the same way they see zeus/thor/... Atheists laughs at you, a christian would torture you to death if he still had the power to do it (history is a * isnt it). Todays mainstream religions are so vague because they got * slapped so hard by science (method of solving and understanding stuff) that we had to coin a new word for your god - god of the gaps. Religion is **ed. We dont care about your feelings. Welcome to the internet - place where religions come to die. I have to say, the ones looking ignorant and **ed are the Eve Online atheists. I've seen debates among some of the greatest minds of our time on this issue and on both camps and the jury seems to still be out, scientifically speaking. But some of you atheists seem to know something that even the most prominant atheists don't. The fact is you don't. Oh, and a couple of you don't even seem to be atheists, but just very angry kids really **ed off at God. You'd think that someone that doesn't believe in God would feel indifferent about this topic. Your insults and dondescendence only proves that atheism IS your religion. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Kohana Chayton Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:20:00 - [139] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 12/07/2010 10:57:33 Originally by: Bond69 This is exactly what religion creates. Ignorance with a touch of ****ation. And its flaunted in our faces. And in return you demand respect and equality? lol An atheist sees christianity (and other religions) the same way they see zeus/thor/... Atheists laughs at you, a christian would torture you to death if he still had the power to do it (history is a * isnt it). Todays mainstream religions are so vague because they got * slapped so hard by science (method of solving and understanding stuff) that we had to coin a new word for your god - god of the gaps. Religion is **ed. We dont care about your feelings. Welcome to the internet - place where religions come to die. I have to say, the ones looking ignorant and **ed are the Eve Online atheists. I've seen debates among some of the greatest minds of our time on this issue and on both camps and the jury seems to still be out, scientifically speaking. But some of you atheists seem to know something that even the most prominant atheists don't. The fact is you don't. Oh, and a couple of you don't even seem to be atheists, but just very angry kids really ed off at God. You'd think that someone that doesn't believe in God would feel indifferent about this topic. Your insults and condescendence only proves that atheism is your religion. Quite ironic. I neither believe, or disbelieve. I simply don't care either way. If people want to believe in X Y or Z, they are welcome to do so, just as long as they don't try to force me to follow their beliefs. I simply don't care either way what anyone else believes. If God exists. Cool. If God doesn't exist. Cool. It's all the same to me. Originally by:** CCP Zymurgist OK everyone, please play nicely. There is no need to start getting angry or show off your Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Troll impression.
gnopgnip	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:28:00 - [140] Originally by: Jason filigree Actually those scams could be prosecuted under the same laws that would apply if I pulled the same scam with US dollars. The announcement that double your money will be returned can be considered an advertisement and a contract. It takes real time and real effort to collect ISC, and there is an established method to transfer real money to ISC thus ISC is property with value. There are already precedents in a couple of courts that you can sue for the loss of an in game item lost to a hacker or similar. and get a payment in real money based on the average effort to acquire the item. the game company is not required to enforce this law but a court could require game logs to be provided for evidence, theoretically a court could require CCP to give the scammers real contact information. In practice these scammers donÆt get enough for anybody to go to the bother of going threw the courts, pursuing a civil fraud case is expensive and the cops already leave thousands of criminal fraud cases un investigated due to lack of resources. But if somebody offers to make you a titan if you provide the raw materials, and then fails to deliver. It might be worth the effort. Edward You dont own the isk, CCP does. You cannot sue someone because a few 1s and 0s got changed on a server owned by ccp.

TheBlueMonkey Gallente Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:34:00 - [141] Originally by: Zaboth Garadath As far as I can tell, many Christians would be really ****** with someone using their religion to deceive people with. I thought that was the point of religion? Decieve people, take their stuff, put your self in a position of control. -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
Kate Sorico	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:47:00 - [142] Religion - simplification for the hard of thinking
Halarach Amarr Triphase Inc. HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:53:00 - [143] Do you realize that scam maybe didn't even exist at all and the OP just the best troll ever? Srsly.
SirRalph Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:55:00 - [144] Religion is the biggest reason to most of wars that humans have ever fought. Christians did their crusades, murdered millions of people. ****s had their 'religion' and murdered millions of people, muslims have done the same. Every day people are getting scammed due religion. People are so idiotic that they are paying taxes because they belong into some religion, now that's a massive real life scam! Religions have been invented only because the leaders need a tool to control stupid people. And what would be better than some fictional gods who get mad if you don't pay taxes to church and mosques! Religions should be banned, since they are the most dangerous thing in the world. All people who are teaching religions should be killed and all books talking about religions should be burned! FREE HUMANKIND FROM THIS MADNESS!
Bond69	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:57:00 - [145] Quote: Stop "preaching" your religion (atheism) to everyone else, else you're no better than those you satarise. First get a clue what atheism is. And im not preaching, im "discussing" and laughing at religion. Quote: I have to say, the ones looking ignorant and ****ed are the Eve Online atheists. I've seen debates among some of the greatest minds of our time on this issue and on both camps and the jury seems to still be out, scientifically speaking. But some of you atheists seem to know something that even the most prominant atheists don't. The fact is you don't. Jury is still out? Perhaps among common folks it is, not even close in scientific community. Your wishful thinking is in its entirety ignored when it comes to science (you know, that lil thing that actually works and is normally flooded with brightest of humanity). And many (if not all) of prominent atheists call themselves anti-theists. They are 1 step away from completely rejecting religion. They dont do it for same reason they cant discount existence of fairies for 100% (their own words even). Quote: Oh, and a couple of you don't even seem to be atheists, but just very angry kids really ed off at God. You'd think that someone that doesn't believe in God would feel indifferent about this topic. Your insults and condescendence only proves that atheism is your religion. Quite ironic. Some of us understand quite well what religion brings. Just look at countries that still have religion in power. And you'd expect me to be indifferent? So you can spread more bull among ignorant? ** that. Keep your fairies in your own home, in public you WILL be laughed at same way as id laugh at an adult believing in santa. And atheism is as much as religion as not believing in fairies is. Must mean you are antifairitist and so according to bible you will be tortured in hell by an all loving/forgiving/kind god for eternity. Seriously?
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:58:00 - [146] Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade Care to show me where science *** slapped Christianity? Go ahead and name ONE SINGLE TIME that science disproved the 2000 year old Bible. Because I can name many times where science PROVED the Bible right. You dont need science, just common sence and logic. 1. The earth is older then the timeframe mentioned in the bible, proof of concept are dinosaurs and the fact that proven calculations can be used to calculate back to the start, a mere few billion years earlyer then the bible suggests 2. Not science, put sheer logic can point you at the contradictions in the bible.. take for instance the OT 10 commandments, then take the NT and if you can get past it without having your stomach turn, you probably only apply the 10 commandments on fellow christians 3. The bible has been rewritten over and over again to suit seperationists to their need, things added, removed, altered and interpreted differently. This alone makes it impossible for any of them hold the ultimate truth, unless you adhere to my signature, in which case it doesnt realy matter 4. God, according to the bible is a devine being, created the universe and it's content and, yet, seems to be a jealous, unforgiving, hate spreading, insecure creature. To explain that statement: Adam and Eve got tossed out of Eden because they thought for themselves instead of listened to their 'master', multiple races have been 'ordered' to be destroyed for their ignorence, etc. NT is full of it. 5. While God created this whole universe (according to the bible), he borked up so bad, that he had to put laws in place to prevent us from using the options he made available ... (dare I make a lil bridge here ... yeah I do ... it's almost as if God works for CCP ) and use the ban stick on anyone not adhering to them 6. Multiple parts of the bible where added in looooong after even Jezus died, clearly that must be a sign it's more man-made then some people like to admit. I WILL grant you that ALL 'holy' books seem to be ahead of their time with regard to science, as ALL 'holy' books already provide info science only recently was able to prove. This opens up a miriad of options, but existance of a God, as described in them, is not a logical conclusion with provided info. Along the same line we could be an alien experiment, we could have had a great disaster, whiping out the previous civilisation that existed on earth, and stumbled upon their leftovers we couldnt explain and pieced together an attempt at an explanation, etc. On a side note, science is just wording it kinda different, but is telling the same story as the bible, if you read with your mind on. Science: everything is energy at it's smallest level, or better, light at different frequency Religion: everything is god, or god is in everything, pick one. Science: the Big Bang (energy) created the universe Religion: God did Science: Creatures evolved (energy in motion under influence of externals) Religion: God created everything See a patern ? Originally by:** Drifter Spaceblade Bring it. I invite you to do the same .. prove how the bible makes it compelling to believe in God as he/she/it is portrayed in the bible ? Cuz it's says so on paper ? ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Sourpsalm Gallente Pubs 'n Clubs	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:06:00 - [147] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Oh, and a couple of you don't even seem to be atheists, but just very angry kids really ****ed off at God. You'd think that someone that doesn't believe in God would feel indifferent about this topic. Your insults and condescendence only proves that atheism is your religion I have to concur with this. Some of these "atheists" were fine with religion until the priest touched them wrong or they saw a story on the news about the minister using church funds to put gold plumbing in this house. They're reacting, against god/gods/religion, which is to atheism what angry holyroller Bible beaters are to Christians. Most real atheists are not like that, thankfully.
omgevenmoarfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:08:00 - [148] I HATE GOD AND IM AN ATHEIST COS THATS WHAT ALL THE COOL KIDS DO
Dan O'Connor Cerberus Network Dignitas.	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:20:00 - [149] Originally by: omgevenmoarfreemoniez I HATE GOD AND IM AN ATHEIST COS THATS WHAT ALL THE COOL KIDS DO Then how can you hate a God, that according to your view of being a Atheist, does not exist? Item DB \| Sigs
omgevenmoarfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:23:00 - [150] Originally by: Dan O'Connor Originally by: omgevenmoarfreemoniez I HATE GOD AND IM AN ATHEIST COS THATS WHAT ALL THE COOL KIDS DO Then how can you hate a God, that according to your view of being a Atheist, does not exist? SHUT UP I HATE YOU!

Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:28:00 - [151] Edited by: Estel Arador on 12/07/2010 12:27:57 No one mention "π (pi) = 3" yet? It would bring the discussion to a whole new level! Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:32:00 - [152] Originally by: Zaboth Garadath So should this be allowed? As far as I can tell, many Christians would be really ****** with someone using their religion to deceive people with. What do you think? Some people would argue that all religons do this as a matter of course.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:34:00 - [153] Originally by: Estel Arador Edited by: Estel Arador on 12/07/2010 12:27:57 No one mention "π (pi) = 3" yet? It would bring the discussion to a whole new level! I kinda tried to hint it in my reply, but you do it better But I doubt geometry is comprehended by a lot of people replying here ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Fenris Ulfur Bio Material Inc	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:37:00 - [154] Edited by: Fenris Ulfur on 12/07/2010 12:39:00 Edited by: Fenris Ulfur on 12/07/2010 12:38:10 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 12/07/2010 11:23:00 Originally by: Bond69 Badly written text I have to say, the ones looking ignorant and ****ed are the Eve Online atheists. I've seen debates among some of the greatest minds of our time on this issue and on both camps and the jury seems to still be out, scientifically speaking. But some of you atheists seem to know something that even the most prominent atheists don't. The fact is you don't. Oh, and a couple of you don't even seem to be atheists, but just very angry kids really *ed off at God. You'd think that someone that doesn't believe in God would feel indifferent about this topic. Your insults and condescendence only proves that atheism is your religion. Quite ironic. First of all I find your generalization of the EVE-online atheist community ignorant. Have you talked to all of us? No I think not. You make the same assumption that those childish people who have been bashing religion in this thread do, that every religious person is a fanatic. My "religious" views, even though its so wrong on so many levels to say this, is methodological naturalism. If it can be quantified in an empirical study, that stands up against peer review, then it is real to me. All who say that science has disproven the existence of an etherial being, by disproving for example what the Bible states how old the earth is, have no real idea of what science stands for. Since there is no empirical evidence of a etherial being science can't prove or disprove its existance. If on the other hand evidence would surface that could be accepted as reliable empirical data on the issue, all those who call them self a scientist, in one way or another, would have to accept that data as proof. That is the nature of science. edit: spelling* --------------------------------------------------------------------- "But rather than that you question my courage, let someone put his hand in my mouth as a pledge that this is done in good faith"
Manipulator General o.0	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:38:00 - [155] Originally by: Guilliman R Isn't religion all about deceiving and scamming people? I fail to see the issue. lol.
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:41:00 - [156] See, it's not that I believe, disbelieve, or agressively disbelieve. I just straight out don't care. If I die and that's it then that's just fine by me. If I turn up at heavens gate then groovey. If I have to burn for eternity then so be it. what does that make me? Religeon wise? -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:43:00 - [157] Originally by: TheBlueMonkey what does that make me? ...part of the MTV generation?
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:46:00 - [158] Originally by: Bond69 Quote: Stop "preaching" your religion (atheism) to everyone else, else you're no better than those you satarise. First get a clue what atheism is. And im not preaching, im "discussing" and laughing at religion. No, Atheism is a religion. Monotheism is a religion. Polytheism is a religion. etc. Your religion is that you have faith that God/gods do not exist and you follow that no matter what any one says. Theres no problem being an atheist, but pretending like you know so much more than everyone else, or that you are so different is completely inaccurate. You've taken a belief stance that suits you and thats fine, but please don't impose that stance on others. CCP should really lock this thread before people get too angry (though it may be too late) EVE Trivia EVE History
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:59:00 - [159] Originally by: BiggestT Theres no problem being an atheist, but pretending like you know so much more than everyone else, or that you are so different is completely inaccurate. Generally the people claiming to be atheists do know more than those who don't... A problem with those who take religious texts literally is that the evidence is against them. Often they deal with that by ignoring the evidence, which leads to a lack of knowledge. (How many people who deny the fact of evolution do so after a careful evaluation of the evidence?) Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Abbot Laarkin Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks	Posted - 2010.07.12 13:03:00 - [160] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 I have to say, the ones looking ignorant and ****ed are the Eve Online atheists. I've seen debates among some of the greatest minds of our time on this issue and on both camps and the jury seems to still be out, scientifically speaking. But some of you atheists seem to know something that even the most prominent atheists don't. The fact is you don't. Oh, and a couple of you don't even seem to be atheists, but just very angry kids really ed off at God. You'd think that someone that doesn't believe in God would feel indifferent about this topic. Your insults and condescendence only proves that atheism is your religion. Quite ironic. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. -Thomas Jefferson In-game antics notwithstanding I tend to lean towards the following... There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness. -Dalai Lama Each to their own. Peace. ---- Originally by:** Sir Carnage Originally by: Marko Riva Why does that read like they're all 12 and have an IQ of 37? I was under the impression they were 37 and had an IQ of 12

Bond69	Posted - 2010.07.12 13:42:00 - [161] Quote: Badly written text There was (some) effort in that text! Quote: No, Atheism is a religion. Monotheism is a religion. Polytheism is a religion. etc. Your religion is that you have faith that God/gods do not exist and you follow that no matter what any one says. Theres no problem being an atheist, but pretending like you know so much more than everyone else, or that you are so different is completely inaccurate. You've taken a belief stance that suits you and thats fine, but please don't impose that stance on others. Atheism is by definition lack of belief. But keep telling yourself that its same if it makes you feel better. Just dont do it in public. And i do NOT claim that gods do not exist 100% just as i do not claim that fairies do not exist. However knowing humanity and how religions came to be i can claim with fair certainty that gods and fairies do not exist. There is a chance of 0.000(lots of zeros)001% that religions got it right. And im "imposing" my stance only due to religious claimes, ignorance and outright bs about atheists and what is actually known about universe and how it works. Religious publicly spew bs and dont expect rest of us to call out the bs? That is my reaction to dumb beliefs being flaunted, not spreading my own (lack of) beliefs.
Krummi	Posted - 2010.07.12 13:49:00 - [162] [Said with a bad Russian accent] There goes the neighbourhood
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2010.07.12 14:04:00 - [163] Seems like as good as scam as any to me, by which I mean, it looks like another lame attempt to scam the gullible.
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.12 15:02:00 - [164] Originally by: BiggestT No, Atheism is a religion. No it's not you tool. The absence of religion is not a religion. It in the ****ing word: A(without)theism(religion/religious faith) Look it up. What is next? You are going to call bald a haircolor? Or are you going to call not collecting stamps for a hobby? We don't all need superstition to live, I know it must be hard for you religious mind to understand....but those are the facts. Do some reading up: http://wiki.atheist.net/index.php?n=Atheism.Atheism Is atheism a religion? The answer depends on what is meant by religion. Religion is generally characterized by the conviction of the existence of a super human controlling power û called a god û as well as faith and worship?. (It is worth pointing out that according to this definition, some variants of Buddhism? canÆt be considered a religion) Atheism for sure isn't a belief in any kind of super human power. Neither is it characterized by worship. If one widens and actually redefines öreligionö to include atheism, then the result is that many other aspects of human behavior should also be called religious, such as studying science, participating in politics, and watching TV. Some atheists answer this question by saying that atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Spades Slick Caldari Rookies Academy Elite	Posted - 2010.07.12 15:05:00 - [165] Originally by: AterraX Originally by: BiggestT No, Atheism is a religion. No it's not you tool. The absence of religion is not a religion. It in the **ing word: A(without)theism(religion/religious faith) Look it up. What is next? You are going to call bald a haircolor? Or are you going to call not collecting stamps for a hobby? We don't all need superstition to live, I know it must be hard for you religious mind to understand....but those are the facts. Do some reading up: http://wiki.atheist.net/index.php?n=Atheism.Atheism Is atheism a religion? The answer depends on what is meant by religion. Religion is generally characterized by the conviction of the existence of a super human controlling power û called a god û as well as faith and worship?. (It is worth pointing out that according to this definition, some variants of Buddhism? canÆt be considered a religion) Atheism for sure isn't a belief in any kind of super human power. Neither is it characterized by worship. If one widens and actually redefines öreligionö to include atheism, then the result is that many other aspects of human behavior should also be called religious, such as studying science, participating in politics, and watching TV. Some atheists answer this question by saying that atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby. Someone needs to check the dictionary again. http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theism Quote: : belief in the existence of a god or gods**
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.12 15:16:00 - [166] Edited by: Ressiv on 12/07/2010 15:17:38 Edited by: Ressiv on 12/07/2010 15:16:49 Originally by: Spades Slick Someone needs to check the dictionary again. http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theism Quote: : belief in the existence of a god or gods Someone needs to learn how to combine: Quote: Main Entry: re+li+gion Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back ù more at rely Date: 13th century 1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith ù re+li+gion+less adjective ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================

CCP Adida C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.12 15:22:00 - [167] Hey guys this is starting to become a debate on religions. Please get back on topic. Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online

Heretica Dukat	Posted - 2010.07.12 15:25:00 - [168] Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade Care to show me where science ***** slapped Christianity? Go ahead and name ONE SINGLE TIME that science disproved the 2000 year old Bible. Because I can name many times where science PROVED the Bible right. Obvious troll is obvious? Please be a troll.... it hurts me to think humans can be this silly.
Jumfat Kohlah	Posted - 2010.07.12 15:28:00 - [169] Originally by: CCP Adida Hey guys this is starting to become a debate on religions. Please get back on topic. How about half way thru and nearly ending ....
Neuuton Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.12 17:29:00 - [170] I endorse this troll +1

Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.07.12 17:36:00 - [171] Entirely fine with this. 1. Stupid people are stupid people, regardless of religion. 2. Scams target stupid people. 3. Scam isn't inciting religious hatred (under the legal definitions) OR discriminating based on religion. 4. Scam can't be prosecuted under fraud laws (to the guy who said it was an advert and a contract) since ownership of all in-game assets remains with CCP (so no ownership ever changes hands in a legal sense). 5. Scam is pretty funny and original. +1 for this scam in fact. Stupid people are there to be abused, robbed and taken advantage of . Hell, if I had my way people would need to pass an exam to be allowed to breed. Personal solution? Don't be stupid. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2010.07.12 17:38:00 - [172] Originally by: Chribba I say ban him! He caused a major discussion about religion in local, and me not being sober yet made it hard to follow the discussion as people talk so fast - so no! No religion scams!! /c No he didn't visit BoB BBQ .. His a slacker! "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Croesus Caldari Titan Indurstrial	Posted - 2010.07.12 17:39:00 - [173] haha look at all these people vomiting their values. you are all very convincing haha.
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.07.12 17:40:00 - [174] Originally by: AterraX No it's not you tool. The absence of religion is not a religion. It in the ****ing word: A(without)theism(religion/religious faith) Look it up. How about we use a peer-reviewed source? Wikipedia is not accepted by universities etc. òthe doctrine or belief that there is no God òa lack of belief in the existence of God or gods wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn So what if it's a belief in no God/gods or a lack of belief in whatever? It's the equivelent of a religion, people get hot-headed about things, people get angry, people meet up to discuss their shared belief/non-belief etc (I see fliers for atheist group meetings all the time). It's not like politics/sport etc. because it's about an existence of God/no-God. To make everyone happy, let's change it to "your religious stance" does that make you happy? Are the pedantics done away with now?? Anyway, the point is, you guys are publically debating religion and imposing your beliefs/lack thereof whatever when it simply shouldn't be discussed on these forums. Back to the question by the OP, it is clearly obvious that it's some dude who is in no way religous and is simply trying to think of a new scam (which, considering the 99% of Eve that seem to be atheists, doesn't seem to be a very effective strategy!); I don't see how it's any different/worse to other scams tbh. EVE Trivia EVE History
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.12 17:58:00 - [175] Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: AterraX No it's not you tool. The absence of religion is not a religion. It in the ****ing word: A(without)theism(religion/religious faith) Look it up. How about we use a peer-reviewed source? Wikipedia is not accepted by universities etc. òthe doctrine or belief that there is no God òa lack of belief in the existence of God or gods wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn So what if it's a belief in no God/gods or a lack of belief in whatever? It's the equivelent of a religion, people get hot-headed about things, people get angry, people meet up to discuss their shared belief/non-belief etc (I see fliers for atheist group meetings all the time). It's not like politics/sport etc. because it's about an existence of God/no-God. To make everyone happy, let's change it to "your religious stance" does that make you happy? Are the pedantics done away with now?? No, not when you brainfart like that. Attheism is the LACK of religious superstition. It's like calling bald a haircolor. Or NOT being a member of a poltical parti...for political. There are no doctrines in atheism...it's just the lack of supersttious faith. Prove me wrong. Just because you post a lot of FUD...dosn't mean that you make sense. Calling atheism a religion is like calling pacifism for violent. Or a circle for square. More religous dribble you want to post?! ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.12 18:17:00 - [176] Originally by: BiggestT How about we use a peer-reviewed source? Wikipedia is not accepted by universities etc. òthe doctrine or belief that there is no God òa lack of belief in the existence of God or gods wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn So what if it's a belief in no God/gods or a lack of belief in whatever? It's the equivelent of a religion, people get hot-headed about things, people get angry, people meet up to discuss their shared belief/non-belief etc (I see fliers for atheist group meetings all the time). It's not like politics/sport etc. because it's about an existence of God/no-God. To make everyone happy, let's change it to "your religious stance" does that make you happy? Are the pedantics done away with now?? Do me the favour of comparing belief and faith, will ya ? A belief is the result of thinking, or at least, should be. Faith is the result of not thinking and not accepting any other outcome/truth then what the faith sprung from. Quote: Anyway, the point is, you guys are publically debating religion and imposing your beliefs/lack thereof whatever when it simply shouldn't be discussed on these forums. Cant realy argue against that, and I guess I'm risking devine intervention by continuing to do so. I'll shut up now, as we are unlikely to ever be able to reach a point where we will agree, as you cant argue against faith. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Verys Burning Technologies	Posted - 2010.07.12 18:26:00 - [177] Congratulations everyone you managed to turn this from a simple question about scamming with religion to a religion debate ****storm in just under 3 pages. Currently awaiting for Godwin's rule to come into play. Please we all know the debates, discussions and random name calling but you are not going to convince anyone with all that pseudo-intellectual crap. Do you really think that people get converted on the internet to belief/not-belief all out of the sudden because they read your forum post? I say live and let die, I am not a religious person but I know a useless debate when I see one. /ragepost Now back onto topic, I don't think CCP should outlaw an extortion method based on religion because this would limit the amount of freedom/liberty once has in this game.
Bond69	Posted - 2010.07.12 18:27:00 - [178] Originally by: BiggestT How about we use a peer-reviewed source? Wikipedia is not accepted by universities etc. òthe doctrine or belief that there is no God òa lack of belief in the existence of God or gods wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=religion&sub=Search+WordNet&o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&h=00 Quote: * S: (n) religion, faith, religious belief (a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny) "he lost his faith but not his morality" * S: (n) religion, faith, organized religion (an institution to express belief in a divine power) "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him" Yep, still no atheism in there. Quote: Hey guys this is starting to become a debate on religions. Please get back on topic. Topic is about religion trying to plead special case and to be outside/above rules. Kinda like in RL but without ability to exert RL pressure on opposition.
Muad' Dib Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.12 18:43:00 - [179] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 12/07/2010 18:43:28 Originally by: Zaboth Garadath I doubt any of you haven't seen scammers spamming local. Most often, the "Send me Isk I will send back 10x". However, this is not a question of whether scamming should be allowed. I fully agree that it is part of the game. However, there are some out there, who use religion to scam with. Quote: [05:43:44] Good Deal > Im going on a relief trip to Haiti. As a Christian, I believe in giving back. As such, I will be giving away my 13 bil isk to all those who have faith. Send me any amount of isk and I will send you DOUBLE back. Limit 3 per person. PLEASE READ MY BIO! His Bio: Quote: Grace to you and peace My name is Ronhard Kelley and I am a proud member of the Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, Texas. My entire life has been dedicated to ministry and serving the call to action from the Lord! http://www.Prestonwood.org/plano/inside-prestonwood/foundation/ I am extremely passionate about bringing Jesus into the community of Eve! One of my favorite sayings outside of the Bible is by a fellow brother named Dr. Jack Graham who said ôThe way you change the heart of a community is to change the heart of its men.ö It is a firm belief of mine that by doing right by everyone I honor my God and strengthen the message I preach! (Hebrews 11:1) 1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen. In the spirit of Jesus I believe in giving generously and having faith in the goodness of others. (James 1:6) 6 But let him ask in faith, without any doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed. So should this be allowed? As far as I can tell, many Christians would be really **** with someone using their religion to deceive people with. What do you think? It depends on the interpretation of each GM. I tried to form a religion in-game as a joke - something like the religion of lazy **s, and i used an external site as a link. Suffice to say that the GM did not find it funny. :( So really petition it. PS: I lolled at the last 2 lines in your post. Religion means power and money, putting yourself between what ppl believe in and themselves gives you a position of power over them. You may not like it, but most of the religions of the world are scams. And those that are not scams, are started by crackpots who are believed. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Amarr citizen 4454545	Posted - 2010.07.12 18:44:00 - [180] Edited by: Amarr citizen 4454545 on 12/07/2010 18:48:20 Originally by: AterraX No it's not you tool. The absence of religion is not a religion. The issue is that atheism and theism BOTH positively assert some type of reality. If you imagine ærealityÆ to be all possible universes û life prohibiting universes as well as the less probable life sustaining universes, the issue of theism or atheism is about the property at least one being. A contingent property is defined as some property that MAY be found in at least ONE possible universe (out of the set of all possible universes). A necessary property is defined as some property that MUST be found in ALL possible universes. An impossible property is defined as some property that CANNOT be found in even a SINGLE possible universe. Take Amarr citizen 4454545 for example, Amarr citizen 4454545 exists in at least one possible universe (EVE) so Jove X existence is contingent. Atheists positively assert a collection of all possible universes where the existence of God is impossible AND therefore not contingent and not necessary. One doesnÆt need to disprove the existence of God to defend this position, but one does need to defend this position because such a reality has consequences. To assert such a reality is indeed as much a positive assertion as one the theist makes. One consequence is that morality does not exist, and is not evident. Theists, on the other hand, assert that in the set of all possible universes, at least one being (called God) exists, and whose existence is necessary. Again, this position does require defence, but does not require one to prove GodÆs existence to defend it. There are consequences to such a universe. One should also note that this discussion very clearly defines who/what God is because it is impossible to look at contingent/impossible/ or necessary properties in universal sets and BE ABITRARY. However for an atheist to positively assert some type of reality and to argue that he shares no burden of proof (because its impossible to prove a negative) misses not only the point but commits the worst of all possible fallacies.

Xirin	Posted - 2010.07.12 18:52:00 - [181] Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 11/07/2010 05:25:24 And this, kids, is why Agnosticism is the answer. You can't definitively prove there isn't a god. You can't prove that there is. So just accept that God may or may not exist! Agnosticism advocates you accept two rules: 1. Everything you know is probably wrong. 2. Suck it up and move on.
Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:24:00 - [182] Edited by: Mar Sarrim on 12/07/2010 19:26:16 Edited by: Mar Sarrim on 12/07/2010 19:25:26 Hmm, gone for a day and the thread still is raging on without interference from moderators. It seems a little pointless to continue (given all the insults coming from "both" sides). Just two observations and then I'll stay out of this: 1) saying atheism is a religion, or just like a religion, is just wrong. There is no basis for such a claim, neither logically (Being an atheist just means one sees no evidence to support the claim of the existence of a personal god. Nothing else.) nor empirically (It is not a social movement. It has no claims to any other part of life. It has no doctrine. etc.) 2) Regardless of being right or wrong, it is pretty obvious from all these debates that atheists know more about religion than religious people know about atheism and its arguments. If you are religious and commenting on atheism, it would be nice if you had actually done some research on it before hand, rather than making absurd claims such as some of the ones in this thread.
regti onlat	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:26:00 - [183] I think this is allowed, in a similar light as the goons used to kill hulks in the name of jihad. although as a religious person myself, I would not personally use religion to scam.
SirRalph Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:27:00 - [184] So, how atheism can be a religion when you just don't believe? I am free. I don't have to do the **ing ridiculous crap that most of you have to do, like go to church and watch old, most likely pedophile priest trying to hit on your kids. Or pay salaries to those old **s. Islamic world has their own ****ed rules and laws, but if you just don't believe - you are free.
Klandi Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:29:00 - [185] OK - then I will say it Scamming with or without religious inference is fine. It is not against any EULA (depending on iterpretation) and will only offend those that take this game too seriously CAN WE DROP THIS PLEASE!!!
Bond69	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:51:00 - [186] Originally by: Amarr citizen 4454545 Edited by: Amarr citizen 4454545 on 12/07/2010 19:06:31 Originally by: AterraX No it's not you tool. The absence of religion is not a religion. The issue is that atheism and theism BOTH positively assert some type of reality. If you imagine ærealityÆ to be all possible universes (whether they exist or not) û life prohibiting universes as well as the less probable life sustaining universes, the issue of theism or atheism is about the nature of reality and property at least one being, in at least one universe. A contingent property is defined as some property that MAY be found in at least ONE possible universe (out of the set of all possible universes). A necessary property is defined as some property that MUST be found in ALL possible universes. An impossible property is defined as some property that CANNOT be found in even a SINGLE possible universe. Take Amarr citizen 4454545 for example, Amarr citizen 4454545 exists in at least one possible universe (EVE) so Amarr citizen 4454545 existence is contingent. Atheists positively assert a collection of all possible universes where the existence of God is impossible AND therefore not contingent and not necessary. One doesnÆt need to disprove the existence of God to defend this position, but one does need to defend this position because such a reality has consequences. To assert such a reality is indeed as much a positive assertion as one that theists makes. One consequence, for example, would be that in such a universe morality would be impossible (because say, it does not exist, and is not evident). Therefore arguing for or against the evidence of morality would come to bear on the overall argument about whether God exists. Theists, on the other hand, assert that in the set of all possible universes, at least one being (called God) exists, and whose existence is necessary (i.e. found in all possible universes, even ones where other life does not exist). Again, this position also require defence, but does not require one to prove GodÆs existence to defend it. There are consequences to such a universe. One should also note that this discussion very clearly defines who/what God is because it is impossible to look at contingent/impossible/ or necessary properties in universal sets and BE ABITRARY. However for an atheist to positively assert some type of reality and to argue that he shares no burden of proof (because its impossible to prove a negative) misses not only the point but commits the worst of all possible fallacies. Atheism is as much a religion (a particular world view, given an individuals core set of axioms) as theism is. And this is what i call god of the gaps. In ancient times when religion was created gods were real in same way wind is real. Today those same gods are hiding in alternative dimensions even. And you expect to be taken seriously? lol And atheism is NOT naturalism. Ignorance is strong with you Quote: CAN WE DROP THIS PLEASE!!! No! Go be offended somewhere else.
DuKackBoon	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:53:00 - [187] Originally by: BiggestT No, Atheism is a religion *Punches BiggesT with the BiggesT BasEBalL SticK IN ThE FacE. Atheism is by definition the lack of religion.
ChronoXVII	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:58:00 - [188] Originally by: Amarr citizen 4454545 However for an atheist to positively assert some type of reality and to argue that he shares no burden of proof (because its impossible to prove a negative) misses not only the point but commits the worst of all possible fallacies. An athiest does not have to disprove the existence of a diety, the burden of proof lies with with religious believer. An athiest stands on the point that no such thing as a god exists using logic by looking at the facts provided by the religious person as to the existence of that, or any, god. All an athiest has to do is to say WHY he/she doesnt believe, he/she doesnt have to offer proof of the non-existence of a god (as has already been pointed out in this thread, BELIEF is not the same as FAITH) that they dont believe in. The burden as to the proof of existence of the god lies solely of the shoulders of the religious person making claims as to gods existence. An athiest doesnt believe by looking at the situation logically, a religious person believes because of faith. 'Logical' and 'faith' are like chalk and cheese. My personal 'belief' (for want of a better word) is that followers of any religion have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to really thinking about the religion they believe in. They accept without question, they believe without thinking. I came to be an athiest thanks to my local preacher who urged me to read the bible. So I did and dropped religion like it was a hot brick instantly. let the flames begin mr number name Yes, this is an alt cos my main is forum banned :)
Kesta Sovek Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.07.12 20:13:00 - [189] Originally by: BiggestT No, Atheism is a religion. Statements like this make baby ~~Jesus~~ Richard Dawkins cry.
Koranoth	Posted - 2010.07.12 20:46:00 - [190] Originally by: SirRalph So, how atheism can be a religion when you just don't believe? I am free. I don't have to do the **ing ridiculous crap that most of you have to do, like go to church and watch old, most likely pedophile priest trying to hit on your kids. Or pay salaries to those old **s. Islamic world has their own ****ed rules and laws, but if you just don't believe - you are free. Nice stereotypical, nonsensical statement there. Keep that intelligence shining mate.

Kewso	Posted - 2010.07.12 20:50:00 - [191] pfft don't worry, just contact the christian scammer, and try to jew him down on his offer and beat him at his own game. If that don't work just yell Allah Akbar and suicide bomb him... Just make sure to nod incessantly at the wailing wall in Jita for penance.
Drifter Spaceblade Caldari People of Random Nature	Posted - 2010.07.12 22:21:00 - [192] Edited by: Drifter Spaceblade on 12/07/2010 22:23:24 Originally by: DuKackBoon Edited by: DuKackBoon on 12/07/2010 20:13:07 Originally by: BiggestT No, Atheism is a religion *HitS BiggesT WitH ThE BiggesT BasEBalL SticK IN ThE FacE. Atheism is by definition the lack of religion. Religion definition from dictionary.com: a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects Atheism definition from dictionary.com: the doctrine or belief that there is no god Sounds to me like Atheism is the RELIGION that there is no God. Congrats, you're the 'other white meat' of religion. You, and every other stuck up atheist out there isn't intelligent enough to differentiate RELIGION with FAITH.
Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.12 23:15:00 - [193] Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade Religion definition from dictionary.com: a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects Atheism definition from dictionary.com: the doctrine or belief that there is no god Sounds to me like Atheism is the RELIGION that there is no God. Congrats, you're the 'other white meat' of religion. You, and every other stuck up atheist out there isn't intelligent enough to differentiate RELIGION with FAITH. You do understand that according to your post, almost every opinion/belief/conviction held by anyone is a religion, right? You like Picasso? Welcome to the religion of Picasso! Passionate about football? Oh, so you are a religious fanatical! The point is that atheism is far too narrow to have a "set of beliefs", and it certainly has no doctrine except if you call "not seeing sufficient evidence for the existence of a personal God" a "doctrine", but that's just silly semantics. Religion is a much wider concept than that, and as such should not be equated to atheism (or liking football, for that matter). Damn, I told myself there was no use posting in this thread anymore. I'm weak.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.12 23:18:00 - [194] Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade You, and every other stuck up atheist out there isn't intelligent enough to differentiate RELIGION with FAITH. Not much to defferentiate like I pointed out earlyer ... for religion you need faith, as there is an overwhelming lack of proof. You could say faith is a prerequirement for religion, as without faith, it would be impossible to be religious. And just cuz I replied to this does not make me an atheist by the way. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.07.12 23:28:00 - [195] gonna start a scientology scam. Guys I need to get my thetans cleared out and talk about Xenu and stuff, send me 100m so I can afford my treatments and I will remember your kindness when I am, like, clean or whatever.
Bond69	Posted - 2010.07.13 00:48:00 - [196] Edited by: Bond69 on 13/07/2010 00:48:51 Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade Religion definition from dictionary.com: a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects Atheism definition from dictionary.com: the doctrine or belief that there is no god Sounds to me like Atheism is the RELIGION that there is no God. Congrats, you're the 'other white meat' of religion. You, and every other stuck up atheist out there isn't intelligent enough to differentiate RELIGION with FAITH. oh ffs atheist- latin:atheos - godless, without god, one that does not believe in God What you are referring is known as strong atheism. See? I even bolded it for you. Just "atheism" means godless, add that lil adjective and you get a "belief" that is making a claim. And there are barely any strong atheists around at all. Most of us explicit atheists do claim there is next to zero chance of a god existing - claim deducted by examining religious claims/evidence throughout history and seeing em fail miserably. Now do you get the difference? If you dont reread what i wrote again.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.13 01:09:00 - [197] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 13/07/2010 01:11:10 Here's an interesting bit from an interview with Richard Dawkins. Mind you, I'm not completely convinced that creationism is even a plausible theory, but you have to admit evolution has huge gaps in it. For anyone interested: Linkage BTW, he never answered the original question, instead evaded it with circular logic. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Michelle Vega	Posted - 2010.07.13 01:12:00 - [198] I seriously doubt that any christians play EVE online.
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.07.13 01:13:00 - [199] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Linkage That video is 100% edited propaganda. Dawkins has talked about this video before and what the circumstances were. Notice the big "CreationOnTheWeb.org" watermark? Obviously unbiased.
Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.13 01:20:00 - [200] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 13/07/2010 01:11:10 Here's an interesting bit from an interview with Richard Dawkins. Mind you, I'm not completely convinced that creationism is even a plausible theory, but you have to admit evolution has huge gaps in it. For anyone interested: Linkage BTW, he never answered the original question, instead evaded it with circular logic. Ok, there is enough name-calling on these forums already, so I won't. But please edit your post to make it honest. There are two possibilities: 1) you are truly unaware that that video has already been debunked as very dodgy editing by the program makers who were out to defend creationism and attack atheists. If I remember correctly, Dawkins said that the footage of him "being stumped" was when he was considering to end the interview because the documentary makers had lied to him about the purpose of the interview. If you honestly didn't know this, it strikes me as very foolish to think that Dawkins, who is one of the foremost experts in this field and a very articulate speaker, would not know how to answer such a simple question. 2) You did know the video is of a very dubious nature. In that case, I suspect that Jesus would not approve of your actions.

MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.13 01:23:00 - [201] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 13/07/2010 01:26:11 Originally by: Mar Sarrim Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 13/07/2010 01:11:10 Here's an interesting bit from an interview with Richard Dawkins. Mind you, I'm not completely convinced that creationism is even a plausible theory, but you have to admit evolution has huge gaps in it. For anyone interested: Linkage BTW, he never answered the original question, instead evaded it with circular logic. Ok, there is enough name-calling on these forums already, so I won't. But please edit your post to make it honest. There are two possibilities: 1) you are truly unaware that that video has already been debunked as very dodgy editing by the program makers who were out to defend creationism and attack atheists. If I remember correctly, Dawkins said that the footage of him "being stumped" was when he was considering to end the interview because the documentary makers had lied to him about the purpose of the interview. If you honestly didn't know this, it strikes me as very foolish to think that Dawkins, who is one of the foremost experts in this field and a very articulate speaker, would not know how to answer such a simple question. 2) You did know the video is of a very dubious nature. In that case, I suspect that Jesus would not approve of your actions. Wasn't aware this simple question was answered. Care to post a link where? Oh, and about this editing, I'd love to see a link 'debunking' this. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Drifter Spaceblade Caldari People of Random Nature	Posted - 2010.07.13 01:34:00 - [202] Originally by: Bond69 oh ffs atheist- latin:atheos - godless, without god, one that does not believe in God What you are referring is known as strong atheism. See? I even bolded it for you. Just "atheism" means godless, add that lil adjective and you get a "belief" that is making a claim. And there are barely any strong atheists around at all. Most of us explicit atheists do claim there is next to zero chance of a god existing - claim deducted by examining religious claims/evidence throughout history and seeing em fail miserably. Now do you get the difference? If you dont reread what i wrote again. You BELIEVE there is next to no chance. I know you want to stray as far away from the word religion as you can, but atheism is indeed a religion. A green apple and a red apple are both apples. The belief there is a God and the belief there isn't a God are both beliefs. Christian is the term to identify those who believe in God. Atheism is a term to identify those who don't. They are one and the same, a set of beliefs followed by large groups of people. May I ask what claims by Christianity you have seen fail miserably over history and explain how it failed?
LQven	Posted - 2010.07.13 01:39:00 - [203] Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade May I ask what claims by Christianity you have seen fail miserably over history and explain how it failed? He can't... Let God be true and every man a liar...
Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.13 01:44:00 - [204] Edited by: Mar Sarrim on 13/07/2010 01:48:01 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Wasn't aware this simple question was answered. Care to post a link where? Oh, and about this editing, I'd love to see a link 'debunking' this. Well, usually the Mighty Google is a fast friend, but this time it took me a couple of minutes because of all the creationism pages that seem to clog the internet. Anyway, here you go for some info on the video (including Dawkins' response): http://thinkerspodium.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/creationist-crankery-flashback-richard-dawkins-stumped/ There are many other examples that answer the question (it really is not that hard, so to think that Dawkins would have to think that long before answering is absurd). Down syndrome would be an answer, for example.
Helio Amor	Posted - 2010.07.13 01:51:00 - [205] Oh My God....no pun intended but you guys violated the three main rules in MMOs.....no Politics, No Religion, No Real-life.....if you want to crack a joke about Obama fine but dont go on a rampage. If you want to say a prayer in chat thats your business and peopel can block you if they want to its your right to but dont debate it. If your having a baby great getting married? Well sometimes thats good lol point is no one wants to hear how a co-worker got on your nerves at work today or how some girl gave you a STD. Now thats out of the way, if someone wants to use thier religion to pedel a scam fine its thier right to scam how they want. CCP supports no religions so no official relgious donations are being taken. If you want to belittle your own religion and use it against people do it, terrorist do it everyday. Now if they believe in God and you do fine then you know that person will accept the consequences of their actions if you dont believe thats fine to. However, don't speak out against something that is none of your concern. The act is not hurting anyone, because CCP has no offical stance on religion everyone knows its not to be taken seriously such as in the Haiti desaster. There isn't any need to ***** about it just hit the blocked button and you dont even have to worry about it. If others people feel the same they know how to block as well. If someone wants to use thier relgion, race, sex, whatever personal means as a means of scamming they have every right to as long as it is not adversely affecting the population.
Octoven Amarr Lupus Draconis Dragehund	Posted - 2010.07.13 01:57:00 - [206] Originally by: Michelle Vega I seriously doubt that any christians play EVE online. I am a christian and I play eve, and that isnt a joke either so yeah your doubts are in conflict lol Also, I don't try to push my belief on others either. They know Im a christian I don't hide that if they want to ask me about the bible and my faith thats fine I welcome it, I may ask a couple people about it 1 time no more. Trying to force others to believe you or trying to decide thier belief for them goes against everything I believe. I may love and respect the Lord God but I also feel the same for freedom and freewill.
Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.13 02:01:00 - [207] Edited by: Mar Sarrim on 13/07/2010 02:03:38 Maybe Bond69 is more sensible than me and will not respond, but these kinds of threads partly amuse, partly frustrate me, so here I go again: Originally by: Drifter Spaceblade You BELIEVE there is next to no chance. I know you want to stray as far away from the word religion as you can, but atheism is indeed a religion. A green apple and a red apple are both apples. The belief there is a God and the belief there isn't a God are both beliefs. Christian is the term to identify those who believe in God. Atheism is a term to identify those who don't. They are one and the same, a set of beliefs followed by large groups of people. May I ask what claims by Christianity you have seen fail miserably over history and explain how it failed? How does one (one!) opinion/observation (namely the absence of convincing evidence of the existence of a personal god) make a whole religion? You can't be serious. Of all the atheists posting in this thread, I only know that they have in common the following aspects: 1) They can read/ write in English, 2) they play EVE, 3) they do no see any evidence for a personal god to exist. I don't know anything about their politics, their ideals, their fundamental beliefs, nothing, except that they do not believe in a God. About the Christians, on the other hand, I know they believe in God, they (presumably) read the Bible, believe that it is the word of God, they have been baptised, they believe in Jesus, etc. See the difference? One is a religion. The other isn't. The absence of one belief does not a religion make. Atheism is not a "set of beliefs". It is the absence of one (one!) belief. And about the claims of Christianity, well, if Christianity is right, then the Muslims, Jews and Hindus are dead wrong. And vice versa.
Cain m Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.07.13 02:59:00 - [208] Originally by: Helio Amor ...no one wants to hear how... ...some girl gave you a STD.... YOU sir do not use public chat channels... 'an STD' Originally by: YouDoNotOwnSalvage You do not in any way shape or form own salvage.
Steeltongue	Posted - 2010.07.13 03:42:00 - [209] A "first cause" is undeniable: the universe had a beginning. Observation of every other thing in existence teaches us that effects unconditionally have causes. This requires us to accept something before the universe, but does not require that something to be intelligent. However, the universe came into being with a complex and concrete set of laws governing the interaction of its elements; laws that, billions of years after that beginning, have resulted in an intelligence capable of understanding them: an intelligence that is therefore manifestly "in the image of" the intelligence that ordered the universe in the beginning. These conclusions are based on the observable logic of the universe, and a contrary hypothesis that avers that the universe is an effect without a cause, and that the inexorable laws of physics came into existence not only spontaneously but also simultaneously (since they are what governed the expansion of the universe), suggests that it all happened in a manner completely unobservable and singular in the natural world. I think exponents of this latter theory bear a greater burden of proof than those of the former because of the hypothesis' implicit violations of natural logic.
Zindevar Devetaki	Posted - 2010.07.13 03:58:00 - [210] Originally by: Spades Slick And this, kids, is why Agnosticism is the answer. You can't definitively prove there isn't a god. You can't prove that there is. Originally by: Monty Python Well I've always said, there's nothing an agnostic can't do if he really doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not. It had to be said.

Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.07.13 04:35:00 - [211] Originally by: Mar Sarrim Atheism is not a "set of beliefs". It is the absence of one (one!) belief. Atheism still has strong hints of beliefs in things or lack of them, and as such plays into the hands of the theists in any discussion as you are made part of their world of thought. A much better term is agnosticism, which instead relegates theist discussions into the same category as lunatics raving about apple pie space plane square diddly poop.
Bezket	Posted - 2010.07.13 04:40:00 - [212] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Atheism still has strong hints of beliefs in things or lack of them, Name one.
Steeltongue	Posted - 2010.07.13 05:26:00 - [213] Originally by: Bezket Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Atheism still has strong hints of beliefs in things or lack of them, Name one. Atheism, as distinct from agnosticism, requires faith in the belief that, although the idea undermines the law of cause and effect, all matter and energy sprang into existence from nothing. It also requires one to put faith in the claim that the complex natural systems and precise cosmological conditions required to support life, which are in turn governed by and predicated upon absolutely rigid physical laws (which must have come into being themselves, at some point), arose simply by the agency of chaos. These are unscientific notions. Has anything else ever been characterized and accepted as an uncaused effect? How can one rely on scientific investigation if there is always the possibility that what we understand as the laws of the universe simply do not apply sometimes? The idea of a creator leaves us with a lot of questions, true; but rational inquiry and scientific thought remain intact.
Terminal Insanity Minmatar U-208	Posted - 2010.07.13 06:01:00 - [214] Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 13/07/2010 06:13:29 Your religion IS a scam. What the ** is the problem? At least he's only stealing your space gold, and not your real money. Originally by:** MatrixSkye Mk2 Comments like these prove that there are spiteful and hateful stupid-spouting idiots on both sides of the fence. It's not the "ignorant vs the edumacated", as they'd like us to believe. There are radical fanatics on BOTH sides of the fence. In fact, in these forums I can safely say the so-called atheists tend to be more radical and hateful. Take this thread as an example. IMO athiests are no better then theists. They all believe in something that cant be proven. personally im agnostic. You can call me a 'fence sitter' but thats just your ignorance. from my view there is no fence, there is only one yard, and you're all fighting over an imaginary line. And if you want to look for hate, violence, and spite, then look no further then Catholicism and Christianity. They have more blood in their past then most other religions. And for my final magic trick, i shall prove that your religion is IN FACT A SCAM and then i'll disprove your entire belief system with ONE WORD ~ ° ° ° ~ Non-Gameplay Enhancements!
Alyth Nerun	Posted - 2010.07.13 06:16:00 - [215] Science flies you to the moon religion into buildings. Not sure what you prefer, i prefer the one that crates spaceships
Henri Rearden Gallente XII Legion Southern Connection	Posted - 2010.07.13 06:21:00 - [216] Good gravy, I can't believe this sparked another fruitless religion debate. Nobody ever convinces anybody, for many reasons both good and bad. Personally, the spam presented in the OP strikes me as: 1) Slimy, scummy, and underhanded - I resent that someone has the gall to use an OOG religion to try to scam people, particularly when doing so goes against the professed ideals of the those religion. 2) Frigging brilliant, creative, and ballsy - I resent the fact that I didn't come up with something that effective myself. I couldn't bring myself to do exactly that, but you know what I mean. I acknowledge and admire the effort and thought that went into it. 3) Not only is it an in-game scam, it's a satire of the type of bait that some supposedly-Christian organizations use in real life to lure in suckers. Not that Christianity is the only religion to suffer at the hands of leeches like that, but ever since the televanglest movement it's an apt example which is easy to find. 4) I think that banning it or the person spamming it would be totally out of line, since they're not openly in violation of any EULA terms that I'm aware of. If it's against the EULA, ban them for spamming, sure, smack them on the hand for polluting local - but not because of the content.
Cataca	Posted - 2010.07.13 07:35:00 - [217] Both sides of the fence are quite ridiculous, really. Atheists argue with Theists that they force their points of view on them, while in fact they do exactly the same, and in many cases much more aggressively. Atheists claim that they are on the side of science, and intellectuality, while in fact, a great number of scientists are religious, not to say that many self proclaimed intellectual Atheists are as intellectual as a stale bucket of water. Religion in itself is a very dangerous tool, many poor people, or people that have been experiencing hardships in their lives end up being manipulated. They put their faith into the hands of God, him not exactly being the most outspoken person, listening to his claimed heralds. We have seen what that leads to, not too long ago. Both sides have good people, that i don't doubt. But most of the very outspoken theists/atheists are hypocritical intolerant pricks. And i think, this thread does well to show my point. tl/dr: your not better than them (either side)
QueenSpider	Posted - 2010.07.13 08:17:00 - [218] Did not read all 8 pages... obviously! But if your allowed to use religion to scam. Race should not be an issue asswell. Or **victims.... incest scum, pedophiles, poor people, atheists, *s, whites, trailer trash, americans, ccp, your dead granma who died a horrible death due to cancer and was than *d by four family members. Or even the fact that you are a deceased freak playing eve all day because you cant work.. you poor poor weak idiot. And here a few examples to proof there is nothing wrong with insulting people: 1. So I hate fckn blacks and I give isk to white people, I double what you give! 2. Little girls are my favourite like insert a womans name here, preferred an actual player, i do them in the bum. Send me isk and I Double it! 3. I support the way you got *d, Send me isk and I Double it! 4. Your family member with cancer deserves to die, but I will double whatever you send me. 5. Just because you cant work because of your illness does not mean your weak... wait it does, Send me isk and I Double it! Would simply be a clever way to gain trust in other rascists/ victims/incest s**and the likes. So yes I agree this all should be okay...... Why create a pleasent gaming experience if you can harras eachoters believes, experiences, weaknesses etc.
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.13 08:45:00 - [219] Originally by: Steeltongue Originally by: Bezket Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Atheism still has strong hints of beliefs in things or lack of them, Name one. Atheism, as distinct from agnosticism, requires faith in the belief that, although the idea undermines the law of cause and effect, all matter and energy sprang into existence from nothing. It also requires one to put faith in the claim that the complex natural systems and precise cosmological conditions required to support life, which are in turn governed by and predicated upon absolutely rigid physical laws (which must have come into being themselves, at some point), arose simply by the agency of chaos. These are unscientific notions. Has anything else ever been characterized and accepted as an uncaused effect? How can one rely on scientific investigation if there is always the possibility that what we understand as the laws of the universe simply do not apply sometimes? The idea of a creator leaves us with a lot of questions, true; but rational inquiry and scientific thought remain intact. Atheism has nothing to do with the Bing bang...and only an ignorant religious **** state that Big Bang came from nothing. Atheism has nothing to do with abiogenesis...but typical for the ignorant religous people you are in the dark about that. As for a perfect world, this is really something you need to factor in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNiTsYCkyI8 And this one debunks the notion of "Intelligent Design" too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg What is next...the religous lie that we come from the apes? (the true wording is that we have common ancestors with the apes...but you wouldn't know that, would you?) But let me ask you questions...that you cannot answer in a meaningfull way: Are you theistic or agnostic about the +6000 other "elfs" than the one you are a fan of? Yes/No Where does yout "elf" come from? Why does your "elf" spread lies? Why is your "elf" far younger the the oldest "elf" we know about? To recap: You muddy the waters and try and combine science and atheism into one entity...that is intellectual dishonesty at best...blantent deliberate lies at worst. Especially when you do that based on ignorance about simple thins such a Bing Bang, abiogenesis, evolution, science ect. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.07.13 08:59:00 - [220] I was driving home early Sunday morning through Bakersfield Listening to gospel music on the colored radio station And the preacher said, "You know you always have theLord by your side" And I was so pleased to be informed of this that I ran Twenty red lights in his honor Thank you Jesus, thank you lord

Ran Khanon Amarr Vengeance Innovations	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:04:00 - [221] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso I was driving home early Sunday morning through Bakersfield Listening to gospel music on the colored radio station And the preacher said, "You know you always have theLord by your side" And I was so pleased to be informed of this that I ran Twenty red lights in his honor Thank you Jesus, thank you lord Hehe :) +1 for pointing out the inherent danger to relying on faith rather than common sense. I agree with everything Barakkus posts.
Elisa AIMSInformation	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:21:00 - [222] .. so i suppose religous insults are allowed now.. Muslims are gay, and allah is fat. Atheists believe there is no god and so is a faith upon itself, since both sides of the fence are unproven. So Atheists are just as stupid if not more. I sincerely hate budhists... they are fat and gay yet less aggressive as all hairy wive beating muslims are. I sincerely hope this ****ed someone off, if CCP would remove this message or something it would be hypocrytical. For the simple fact christians are getting bashed for the last 8 pages ^^
Rothrin	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:27:00 - [223] I like to hedge my bets on the subject, but i do understand that if their was 100% proof god excisted and the afterlife was a cert, mankind would have killed itself to get their(sins ofc comeing much later then the bible).
Pikkuhukka Caldari NPC Corporation	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:27:00 - [224] ends justify the means, always so in short yes i would employ every necessary mean to achieve my own goals, even if it means that someone really gets offended or even better, by my actions quits the game <insert here diabolical laughter> thats the way i roll
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:48:00 - [225] Originally by: Elisa AIMSInformation .. so i suppose religous insults are allowed now.. Muslims are gay, and allah is fat. Atheists believe there is no god and so is a faith upon itself, since both sides of the fence are unproven. So Atheists are just as stupid if not more. I sincerely hate budhists... they are fat and gay yet less aggressive as all hairy wive beating muslims are. I sincerely hope this ****ed someone off, if CCP would remove this message or something it would be hypocrytical. For the simple fact christians are getting bashed for the last 8 pages ^^ Stop raing the language. Atheism is not a religion or faith. It's absence of such things. Do read up. Here is a good luck place to start: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/10-myths-and-10-truths-about-atheism1/ What you are doing is not insults based on religion, those are merely blatant hatefull posts. Besides vreligions are hatefull themself...they talk down about people outside their cognetive vius..just open any religious book of lies :) ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Elisa AIMSInformation	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:56:00 - [226] You believe in the absence of a god. look at that second word. If you believe something is or is not, but is not yet proven. They have a word for that... faith!
Mar Sarrim	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:08:00 - [227] Edited by: Mar Sarrim on 13/07/2010 10:10:40 Originally by: Elisa AIMSInformation You believe in the absence of a god. look at that second word. If you believe something is or is not, but is not yet proven. They have a word for that... faith! No, an atheist rejects the premise that there is a God, i.e. does not share the belief that there is one. By the way, in every day language, the word "belief" is not just used in the sense of "religion" or "faith", but also in the sense of "I do not see evidence"/"I am of the opinion"/etc. Playing with semantics is not very helpful: atheism is not a religion or faith, just as your lack of faith/believe in Leprechauns is not a religion or faith (see my earlier posts).
Elisa AIMSInformation	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:19:00 - [228] You just repeat yourself in fancy words wich does not change the obvious. You reject the idea/belief that there is a god with all your being. This requires faith, just as you believe your mother loves you greatly, something wich cannot be measured or pinpointed by science. Fancy words dont change the truth. You have faith that there is no God, this is what you BELIEF. If you are to ignorant to see this obvious fact than you are just as blind in your faith as so many athiests claim religous people are.
FarmerCounter	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:33:00 - [229] Originally by: QueenSpider Did not read all 8 pages... obviously! But if your allowed to use religion to scam. Race should not be an issue asswell. Or **victims.... incest scum, pedophiles, poor people, atheists, *s, whites, trailer trash, americans, ccp, your dead granma who died a horrible death due to cancer and was than *d by four family members. Or even the fact that you are a deceased freak playing eve all day because you cant work.. you poor poor weak idiot. And here a few examples to proof there is nothing wrong with insulting people: 1. So I hate fckn blacks and I give isk to white people, I double what you give! 2. Little girls are my favourite like insert a womans name here, preferred an actual player, i do them in the bum. Send me isk and I Double it! 3. I support the way you got *d, Send me isk and I Double it! 4. Your family member with cancer deserves to die, but I will double whatever you send me. 5. Just because you cant work because of your illness does not mean your weak... wait it does, Send me isk and I Double it! Would simply be a clever way to gain trust in other rascists/ victims/incest s**and the likes. So yes I agree this all should be okay...... Why create a pleasent gaming experience if you can harras eachoters believes, experiences, weaknesses etc. Totally agree! Can anyone for the scam answer this?

CCP Applebabe	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:51:00 - [230] This is not allowed as it's a direct breach of the rule 11 of our Terms of Service. Thread locked. Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us




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