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FlightGlobal
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Posted - 2010.07.16 23:05:00 -
[1]
Edited by: FlightGlobal on 16/07/2010 23:09:11
This is a response to the devblog dated 16/07/2010, titled "Iterative development and what's happening in 2011" by CCP Zulu. I would like a vote on wheather CCP has now committed to overstretching itself at the cost of the Eve Online gaming experience. Further, that there is not enough commitment, resources, time or interest being focused on that game we all knew and loved of 9-18 months ago compared to 'sidline' projects.
First, I think this post may upset some people- I'm sorry about that and this post is not about what shouldn't be in eve as this is unqestionably CCP's choice as a buisness first and game developer 2nd. However, I would like to express concern, even anger at CCP's proposed timescales. Now I would again admit that CCP is a buisness first and game developer 2nd and thus it has to do what is in it's interest in terms of product development timescales. But I think there has been an error in judgement.
My problem is that I think CCP is taking on too much stuff, in to short a time frame in order to meet arbitrary time scales for other products. I fear this is a problem for three reasons, the first is a matter of personal opinion, but relates to the other two which relate to a wider refelection on eve as a whole and the quality of the game.
1) As a pure eve player I really don't care about character interaction or fps consol games that link to eve. I appreciate this may be important to some gamers (both current and future), but I'm really not interesed. Does CCP even know what percentage of the active eve community want these features over, as an example, game stability? I know I wasn't asked- were you? I am worried that these large scale and difficult undertakings (by CCP Zulu's own admission) will side track from eve, especially when taking into account the possible ramifications listed below in points 2+3.
2) I really have to question the gaming quality of eve at the moment. I am concerned with eve's ability to offer a stable gaming platform for it's current users. The game has, even by CCP's admission, become less stable over the last 9-14 months. Now while I admit CCP is trying to resolve this via mass testing- a clever 'solution' (nothing has been solved yet) to a problem that should have never existed. I question how much resource is being put in to fixing it, and what the proposed timescale is- CCP are putting up a smokescreen here, apparently to shield a problem with no discernable conclusion- this worries me, as they can tell us the release dates(ish) for ambulation and the FPS consol game (whatever they are both called). Am I the only one sat here worried coz all I want is a stable game to enjoy. I worry that with twice yearly upgrades (none that solely focus on stability) and now not one, not two but three (if u include the latest planet mining initiative) large projects that CCP is now spreading itself far to thin to provide a quality gameing experience for the current and future gaming community.
3) Linked to point 2, if CCP is further expanding, whilst not maintaing a stable and reliable platform for product 1 (Eve online), what hope is there if CCP is extended over new projects and new games to provide support for a game that is already loosing stability (especially in null sec)? Proposed recruitment expansion aside, if CCP can't do it now will they be able to with multiple large projects? I don't think it can. Further, if these new projects draw in the new gamers to eve that CCP hopes it should, will this not make the game even more unreliable? It is not even working at current capacity.
Now this may be selfish, but I enjoy playing eve online coz I enjoy flying internet spaceships in fleets of like minded people, against similar opposition.
Now I may be wrong here, but am I alone in thinking that rather than all this other stuff, that it would be nice if Eve as it is now (or was 9-18 months ago) just worked - plain and simple?
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FlightGlobal
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Posted - 2010.07.16 23:21:00 -
[2]
CLARIFICATION: I make this point:
" am worried that these large scale and difficult undertakings (by CCP Zulu's own admission) will side track from eve".
Please note that I refer to the fact that CCP Zulu admits these are large and complicated projects. Having re read my post I see it could read that CCP Zulu has admiited that these projects are a side track- this was not my intention, I only ment to show that ambulation and FPS were large and complicated projects by admission of CCP Zulu, but I don't have the room to edit this in the main post.
Sorry for any confusion.
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Heroldyn Yhamad
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Posted - 2010.07.16 23:32:00 -
[3]
No. |
EdFromHumanResources
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.17 00:51:00 -
[4]
70 developers on walking in stations bull**** that has no real impact on the game and 22 on the game itself. Something is ****ing wrong here.
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Aegis Stormborn
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Posted - 2010.07.17 03:02:00 -
[5]
TL;DR
But to answer the question in the title, it would appear so. That being said, EVE is still awesome. That being said, please do what you said you would CCP, make everything work and finish unfinished projects. IE 'Commit To Excellence'.
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Voddick
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Posted - 2010.07.17 03:19:00 -
[6]
OK, your points are valid. CCP IS in fact a company first; a company that apparently wants to grow and become a European version of Blizzard and have multiple blockbuster titles with a huge fan base.
*stay with me here*
Do WOW fans complain the Blizzard has a department developing Diablo III? Or do WarCraft 3 fans complain that StarCraft 2 took all the ôgoodö RTS game developers with them to that project? No, no they donÆt, for several reasons, the main being that WOW fans have no clue who the developers are; Blizzard doesnÆt post DEV blogs, and they certainly donÆt have a CSM that flies to Blizzard HQ to give feedback from the player base.
The bottom line is that a company like CCP can successfully walk and chew gum at the same time. Multiple projects doesnÆt mean that ôdeveloper Aö works on Dust from 0800-1200 and then Incarna from 1300-1700. It means they hire more people to scale to multiple projects (The new UK office for example, along with those in China and Atlanta). In businessùnot on a soap box hereùyou either grow or die. Stagnation will kill a business slowly from the inside. Look at the matrix online or other MMOÆs that were here and now gone. CCP isnÆt abandoning EVE. They are trying to add value and dynamic to it by developing DUST for consoles and having mercs blow your EVE **** up on planets--for lack of a better term.
As long as we have the CSM and CCP continues to support us through them we are in good shape. Bravo to Dierdra Vaal for holding CCP accountable; but the long term plans have already been set here people. The budgets have been drafted, the money is allocated, to reverse or change course now will be too costly for CCP. I DO believe however, that they will ôeventuallyö get to our concerns for Low Sec, Fleet lagùwhich is being workedùUI overhaul, PI overhaul, etc. These things take time. To reach their longer term goal of a new game, reaching additional demographics of gamers, and growing EVE Online itself this is the path they have chosen. Is it aggressive? Yes. Will it work? Who knows. ThatÆs for the CCP executives to call and be held accountable for. I for one donÆt think this is a bad path to be on as long as long standing bugs and CSM issues are addressed, resolved, and resources are allocated to fix ôold problems.ö
Vod
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.07.17 04:41:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Vod****
OK, your points are valid. CCP IS in fact a company first; a company that apparently wants to grow and become a European version of Blizzard and have multiple blockbuster titles with a huge fan base.
*stay with me here*
Do WOW fans complain the Blizzard has a department developing Diablo III? Or do WarCraft 3 fans complain that StarCraft 2 took all the ôgoodö RTS game developers with them to that project? No, no they donÆt, for several reasons, the main being that WOW fans have no clue who the developers are; Blizzard doesnÆt post DEV blogs, and they certainly donÆt have a CSM that flies to Blizzard HQ to give feedback from the player base.
The bottom line is that a company like CCP can successfully walk and chew gum at the same time. Multiple projects doesnÆt mean that ôdeveloper Aö works on Dust from 0800-1200 and then Incarna from 1300-1700. It means they hire more people to scale to multiple projects (The new UK office for example, along with those in China and Atlanta). In businessùnot on a soap box hereùyou either grow or die. Stagnation will kill a business slowly from the inside. Look at the matrix online or other MMOÆs that were here and now gone. CCP isnÆt abandoning EVE. They are trying to add value and dynamic to it by developing DUST for consoles and having mercs blow your EVE **** up on planets--for lack of a better term.
As long as we have the CSM and CCP continues to support us through them we are in good shape. Bravo to Dierdra Vaal for holding CCP accountable; but the long term plans have already been set here people. The budgets have been drafted, the money is allocated, to reverse or change course now will be too costly for CCP. I DO believe however, that they will ôeventuallyö get to our concerns for Low Sec, Fleet lagùwhich is being workedùUI overhaul, PI overhaul, etc. These things take time. To reach their longer term goal of a new game, reaching additional demographics of gamers, and growing EVE Online itself this is the path they have chosen. Is it aggressive? Yes. Will it work? Who knows. ThatÆs for the CCP executives to call and be held accountable for. I for one donÆt think this is a bad path to be on as long as long standing bugs and CSM issues are addressed, resolved, and resources are allocated to fix ôold problems.ö
Vod
look how naive you are
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Drake Draconis
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
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Posted - 2010.07.17 05:51:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 17/07/2010 05:51:33
Excerpt from minutes:
Quote:
The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence and expressed concern at the direction in which CCP is going with EVE. There is full consensus within the CSM that this issue is a problem.
Some examples of game areas which the CSM feels do not meet the expected standard of excellence: factional warfare, treaties, lag, Tyrannis introduction (PI), unfinished content (COSMOS, bounty hunting system). Examples which the CSM feels demonstrate that CCP IS capable of excellence: Apocrypha (wormholes, T3, less lag), Dominion (supercaps rebalance), Quantum Rise. The CSM stated that there is a widespread belief that CCP is emphasizing quantity at the cost of quality, which goes against CCPÆs ôExcellenceö initiative.
The CSM proposed that CCP focus more on existing content, polishing it post-release until it is excellent. Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnÆt committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment. The CSM suggested that a perception of excellence is in large part based on player perception and that they felt that players generally do not perceive EVE as being an excellent product nor headed in an excellent direction.
The greatly increased null-sec lag was cited as major example, as it has resulted in a situation where fleets of a few dozen players often experience major problems loading up empty systems. Nathan pointed out that CCP is heavily focused on reducing lag and that resources are currently being applied to the problem. Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones.
CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.
It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features. This led to a discussion on the balance of customer acquisition through new features versus customer retention through quality and polish.
The CSM also stressed the importance of goodwill and overall player satisfaction, which is very hard to measure in statistics until players decide to quit.
The CSM is concerned that players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved. CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard.
That says it all right there... new features over quality and polish... in other words... they don't give a #### what you think. This discussion is a waste of time.
They wouldn't give a damn even if you screamed loud enough.
And the CSM is powerless to stop it.
Sorry to burst your bubble... protest or not... we're at the mercy of greed.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
========================= |
Marcus Henik
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Posted - 2010.07.17 11:43:00 -
[9]
imo eve works deacent, yes there are some poblems with fleet lag, but that is a problemon every single mmo (except for wow but they get rid of lag by capping numbers in a instance) if you get 600 people on 1 grid all doing different things, the server is going to bog down a bit. there is only so much bandwidth available. yes there are bugs, but ccp does spend alot of time fixing them. the ones that do get overlooked for a long time are hardly game killers. the thing is eve stays a active viable game because new stuff keeps coming out. I seriously doubt I would still be playing the game with out the wormholes, and PI has been a god send for those times when I have nothing else to do.
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Smelly Bait
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Posted - 2010.07.17 13:47:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Smelly Bait on 17/07/2010 13:50:25
I think most people that are concerned are 0.0 players. How long is it ago that we had a decent pvp patch, all i see are bear patches and eve is gettting laggier and laggier for pvp. Seems there priorities are wrong.
wormhole - bear patch
mission thingies - bear patch
fw - small bear friendly pvp and farming bear patch
system upgrades - bear patch
New sov - pvp patch
epic arcs - bear patch
evegate - useless
PI - bear patch
where are all the pvp improving content, IE the numerous broken ships? BO's? Deimost? lach?
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Aeron Sophus
Minmatar
Stripper Mine Co.
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Posted - 2010.07.17 14:42:00 -
[11]
CCP isn't overstretched, they're understaffed.
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Solostrom
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Posted - 2010.07.17 16:28:00 -
[12]
Absolutely supported!
CCP is using the income generated by EvE to make World of Darkness and a Console game.
Neither of these relates to internet spaceships.
So based on available numbers something like 5% of my $15 a month is being used to pay for people to work on the game I play.
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Jangro Fury
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Posted - 2010.07.18 10:56:00 -
[13]
Total support. It's not fair to ignore your current player base at the expense of expansion that most pvper (and I dare say a fair few bears as well) don't even care about.
WE WANT A PVP/STABILITY FIX!!!!!!
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
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Posted - 2010.07.18 11:22:00 -
[14]
Just wanted to say that the rework on level 4 and level 5 agents sending PvE players into low sec systems should be considered an upgrade for PvP players. |
Laura Hollard
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Posted - 2010.07.19 21:24:00 -
[15]
Gets my vote. But I do think that if ccp does expand it may be able to devote more resources to eve. Whether or not they would do this though is a completly different matter- it may even be the final acid test.
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Scott McClellan
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Posted - 2010.07.19 22:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Vod****
Do WOW fans complain the Blizzard has a department developing Diablo III? Or do WarCraft 3 fans complain that StarCraft 2 took all the ôgoodö RTS game developers with them to that project? No, no they donÆt, for several reasons, the main being that...
...Blizzard supports their product like nobody else in the industry while CCP maintains it's not worth it to support theirs?
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Villian
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Posted - 2010.07.20 03:36:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Scott McClellan
Originally by: Vod****
Do WOW fans complain the Blizzard has a department developing Diablo III? Or do WarCraft 3 fans complain that StarCraft 2 took all the ôgoodö RTS game developers with them to that project? No, no they donÆt, for several reasons, the main being that...
...Blizzard supports their product like nobody else in the industry while CCP maintains it's not worth it to support theirs?
That is your opinion, and easily made a spectacle of. 'Ghost' was a complete failure, never took off and soaked up a ridiculous amount of revenue that could have gone into other projects.
WoW itself is mind-bogglingly stale, with the same models released years ago still being recycled and reskinned and many of the encounters little more than remixes or tiny revisions to old ones. It succeeds in spite of itself. Their business practices are dubious, scalping players for more money by selling cosmetic features like mounts, or minor services like server changes for double what a month of playtime is worth.
CCP is the very model of good game development ethics, and while you will likely not find all of their work appealing what they are doing is excellent. On a final note, this 'Incarna' project everyone complains about as a waste of development is very much going to improve EVE, bring a fresh wave of players and raise the bar in the industry for character rendering.
The lack of a 'human' avatar is the most complained about feature for EVE by potential players. It's in every other review by game journalists interested in what this game is about. If that is any indication of the impact that this feature will have to new or potential players, this will cause an explosion of growth in the game. Most of whom will increase CCP's ability to staff an even larger development team by contributing their subscriptions. It's a short term pain for a long term pleasure. Be patient, it's not your favorite feature's turn for touch up just yet, but that doesn't mean it won't come. Now is the time to establish what things you want so that when it is time you get something you like from it.
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PC l0adletter
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Posted - 2010.07.20 04:08:00 -
[18]
I don't care about vampires and console games.
I'm annoyed that the game I'm paying $240 a year for is being cannibalized to develop them.
If they want to develop new titles, why don't they raise money in capital markets or sign a deal with a publisher like every other studio?
If they want to plow the (healthy) profits from a well-maintained EVE into other ventures, that's their business.
However, I object when they cut support of EVE below maintenance levels to boost their investment in other titles, and I'll vote with my pocketbook.
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Reiko Yamamoto
Shiva
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Posted - 2010.07.21 21:22:00 -
[19]
Full support to this.
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Wenoc
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Posted - 2010.07.21 21:30:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Wenoc on 21/07/2010 21:30:44
CCP has made it pretty clear they don't give a rats ass about fixing the game. They would rather spend their time making dust and nice new avatar faces and stations - features none of us players could care less about.
Supported. |
FlightGlobal
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Posted - 2010.07.22 20:09:00 -
[21]
Thanks for your support guys. Anyone else got any thoughts?
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FlightGlobal
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Posted - 2010.07.23 15:02:00 -
[22]
Please note. As of this post I have changed the title of this thread for clarity. My point is still the same so I have not put a new topic up, I just changed the title so my issue was more apparent.
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FellRaven
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.23 15:39:00 -
[23]
Agreed I don't want internet spaceships second life and if we were to have dust it should have been for storming stations.
So Avatar worth having no - but what might be worth knowing is what will Avatars bring to game play and game play seems to be getting lost at the moment.
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Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.23 16:26:00 -
[24]
I dont think we realy have a choise here. None of us need avatars or FPS becouse we are already EVE players.
I can see CCP's needs to do this things though. They are doing ground braking work in something that has never before been done.
I am willing to sacrifice a few years for that. Besides they are still working on EVE at the same time too.
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
DanceGabbyDance
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Posted - 2010.07.23 17:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Villian
Originally by: Scott McClellan
Originally by: Vod****
Do WOW fans complain the Blizzard has a department developing Diablo III? Or do WarCraft 3 fans complain that StarCraft 2 took all the ôgoodö RTS game developers with them to that project? No, no they donÆt, for several reasons, the main being that...
...Blizzard supports their product like nobody else in the industry while CCP maintains it's not worth it to support theirs?
That is your opinion, and easily made a spectacle of. 'Ghost' was a complete failure, never took off and soaked up a ridiculous amount of revenue that could have gone into other projects.
WoW itself is mind-bogglingly stale, with the same models released years ago still being recycled and reskinned and many of the encounters little more than remixes or tiny revisions to old ones. It succeeds in spite of itself. Their business practices are dubious, scalping players for more money by selling cosmetic features like mounts, or minor services like server changes for double what a month of playtime is worth.
CCP is the very model of good game development ethics, and while you will likely not find all of their work appealing what they are doing is excellent. On a final note, this 'Incarna' project everyone complains about as a waste of development is very much going to improve EVE, bring a fresh wave of players and raise the bar in the industry for character rendering.
The lack of a 'human' avatar is the most complained about feature for EVE by potential players. It's in every other review by game journalists interested in what this game is about. If that is any indication of the impact that this feature will have to new or potential players, this will cause an explosion of growth in the game. Most of whom will increase CCP's ability to staff an even larger development team by contributing their subscriptions. It's a short term pain for a long term pleasure. Be patient, it's not your favorite feature's turn for touch up just yet, but that doesn't mean it won't come. Now is the time to establish what things you want so that when it is time you get something you like from it.
this
to much whining about CCP
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Icantseeanythinginthis
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Posted - 2010.07.23 18:04:00 -
[26]
Supporting because I want the game fixed and don't think a stupid console game should hold up fixing a game that is out already.
That is all.
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Anne Kerr
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Posted - 2010.07.23 20:19:00 -
[27]
More games = more pennies.
Incarna is a pretty huge feature to add to eve and will attract more subscriptions. People who don't want it won't use it.
Incarna and Dust are both related to eve. If anything see it as a sign they want to continue development of eve for a long time.
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Mithrandere
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Posted - 2010.07.24 12:15:00 -
[28]
Fix the product we pay for. Better that than potentially 3 products that all need fixing.
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Saelie
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Posted - 2010.07.24 12:42:00 -
[29]
It seems like just yesterday that the forums were chock full of people whining and complaining that ambulation (as we called it back then) was never going to happen and people wanted to walk in stations and what the heck was CCP thinking why weren't they doing this? Now that they are doing it, we get a forum chock full of whining and complaining that fixes are never going to happen and people want fixes and what the heck is CCP thinking why aren't they doing this?
Just goes to show you can't make everyone happy.
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Clumsy Pilot
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Posted - 2010.07.24 13:01:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Clumsy Pilot on 24/07/2010 13:01:16
while i can see definately see your point, and owuld love at least half of the "compilation of minor ui improvements" proposal implemented, so in battle i don't have to zoom in on the enmy ship and stare at it trying to figure out if it's uswing energy vamps on me, these features have been promiced for a loooooooooong time by now, and i can deinately see CCP whanting to finally get them done, delivered, and over with, so they are no longer hanging on CCP's back. I personally will probably never play dust, i simply will not by a console because of one game, i just don't like consoles and how limited they are compared to a pc.
Infact still whant the dust to be realeased and see how it wrks out, and i will probably still enjoy hiring mercenaries to brow up PI installations of that ninja salvager that jacked my "damsiel in distress"
I might toy around with walking in stations for a few weeks and forget about it, but i can UNDERSTAND why CCP is doing this, and so i will not support this proposal.
PS: CCP, listen to csm, they are really speaking the truth.
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