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Deva Blackfire
Amarr LOST IDEA C0VEN
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Posted - 2010.07.23 14:10:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/07/2010 14:13:22
Originally by: Marconus Orion Edited by: Marconus Orion on 23/07/2010 04:12:23 Have moons change. A 30 day cycle on a moon that is being mined the whole time would be something like this:
5 day change which during those 5 days each day the ratio of old mineral vs new mineral goes down by 20% per day. So on day 1 it would be 80% cad and 20% tech. Day 2 is 60% cad and 40% tech. So on and so forth that on day 6 it is now 100% tech.
The 100% tech would last for 20 days. This is of course if it is being mined the whole time. On day 26 we would start to see the introduction of a new mineral that was depleted somewhere else in the universe. So lets say it would be 80% tech and 20% cobalt.
You get the idea. This would bring back moon probing as a profession and give incentive to go after moons that show evidence of going from a so so element to the flavor of the month in demand element.
But of course, I expect any current high end moon holders to flame this will their mains and alts and put out an alliance wide mail for everyone else to do the same.
That is just one idea I have on what would help out 0.0. Not to mention give low sec a boost.
Flame on.
EDIT: If no mining is happening, then the cycle freezes on whatever it was and does not continue. All in all I think it would be a simple to implement. Maybe we will see if CCP does anything like that in the next 12-18 months.
Proposed pretty much same thing when CCP was still in draft stage with new SOV system and it was called ******ed and stupid, and noone would like to run after new moons every few months. And suddenly exactly same idea is generally accepted? Lol. I rly cant understand people in this game... or they are just so effin blind they cant predict anything past what they will eat as a next meal...
As for my idea: just plain and blunt mineral switch every 3 months. 1 month was IMO too often (it takes goddamn week to take over system when its defended) and would be hard to pay itself back. Reasons exactly same as in your post: back to moon mining, ability to ninja mine before "big boys" get to it, forces sov wars/wars over moons. Reason against: moons are kinda worthless now. Still imo better to force some conflicts rather than have 100% stagnation.
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HenkieBoy
Minmatar Best Path Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.23 14:41:00 -
[32]
Just introduce a bounty the attacker will receive when it captures a system. The longer the system is owned by a corp/alliance the higher the bounty.
For the RP part: The bounty will be paid by an anti-concord faction that wants chaos in the universe 
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Deva Blackfire
Amarr LOST IDEA C0VEN
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Posted - 2010.07.23 15:01:00 -
[33]
Originally by: HenkieBoy Just introduce a bounty the attacker will receive when it captures a system. The longer the system is owned by a corp/alliance the higher the bounty.
For the RP part: The bounty will be paid by an anti-concord faction that wants chaos in the universe 
And you dont see how it can be exploited? At all?
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SheriffFruitfly
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.23 15:26:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Snaut
Originally by: Sarrgon Biggest thing IMO is fixing the lag and node issues, most larger alliances atm feel it isn't worth it to start a big war till it is fixed. Which is hurting the economy cause they aren't buying up extra minerals, ice and ship / fittings and such to fuel the war effort. Most don't care about the politics in 0.0, they just want a enemy to shoot at, glory for there corp / alliance saying they are winning battles and taking systems. And for new CAOD content, since the big war up north ended, CAOD got boring, use to love to read CAOD when I needed a good laugh 
But fixing the lag and node issues will help fix some problems Eve is currently facing. Though I think some new 0.0 regions would help out also.
This
Good thing ccp has 70 devs working on station-walking, eh? __________________________________________________________ Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |

Ezekialous
Amarr Void Angels Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.07.23 15:53:00 -
[35]
I would like to see the 0.0 rental system developed, that would make space worth fighting for, the more space you have the more you can rent out, but much like most CCP promises they never materialize into anything .. Still waiting for my 5th subsystem module CCP :)
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HenkieBoy
Minmatar Best Path Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.23 15:54:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: HenkieBoy Just introduce a bounty the attacker will receive when it captures a system. The longer the system is owned by a corp/alliance the higher the bounty.
For the RP part: The bounty will be paid by an anti-concord faction that wants chaos in the universe 
And you dont see how it can be exploited? At all?
Sure I do.. just make sure the system is more worth for the defenders then for the attackers. But the topic is about the incentive for the attackers, not how to prevent exploits ;)
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Hyveres
Caldari Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.23 16:07:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Hyveres on 23/07/2010 16:07:32 Basicly fix the worst lag for 3-600 man engagement on nonreinforced nodes.
Before dominion you saw a ton more capital engagements.. since hotdropping was not suicidal. Today you have a worst case scenario with a couple of hundred people taking down a pos using caps + support. Gather up and hotdrop and as your ships load the system you have the wonderfull blackscreen experience meaning that the guys already in system just get a nice round of turkeyshooting.
This means that a ton of situations which led to fights and dead capital ships before dominion simply does not happen anymore since one side decides the hotdrop is simply too damn risky.
"Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |

Hyveres
Caldari Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.23 16:10:00 -
[38]
Oh and while a lot of people talk of the 1k+ fights, these engagements were rare, so while they got the headlines the higher number of smaller engagements was where most of the shiplosses happened.
"Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |

n0thing
Gallente Executive Intervention The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.07.23 16:13:00 -
[39]
Fine post.
Signed, please, CCP Devs, take a look at current warfare shape, we need something that will light 0.0 up!! ---
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Marconus Orion
Amarr D00M.
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Posted - 2010.07.23 17:18:00 -
[40]
So basically:
1. Slay the Lag Monster, obvious there ofc.
2. Make moons dynamic in the since they change as they are mined, the duration of the change is subject to debate but all in all I think it would encourage some pew. Not to mention I like the idea of some low sec entity trying to hack it there and them having some nice moon goo income start to flow in. It would be interesting to see how what conflicts it would cause.
3. System upgrades affecting neighboring alliances/corps that are not in their alliance/corp in negative ways. There is no way that any super mega alliance would last long at all considering the infinite amount of egos in this game. Imagine them all trying to be roommates? 
Creating conflict is what we need and I think that would be a nice start.
Signing off on a surprisingly non-fail WIDOT thread.
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Spurty
Caldari D00M.
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Posted - 2010.07.24 13:13:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Spurty on 24/07/2010 13:16:49 A) wrap space back on itself (top of the north enters bottom of the south etc) B) some space is too cheap, some space is too expensive for the harvest you can expect to yield. FIX ME C) gates and switching sessions. Seriously, please, get rid of this concept. Put both sides of a gate on a single node, you session change while in warp or not at all. Jumping in and dying during session change, makes me want to go play instanced dungeons in some kiddie game. D) sov, the concept is 'ok', but seriously, it takes too long to war over it. E) RF timers, no longer than 6 hours (MAX) yupe, 6 hours. You have all day to play, you should be able to make progress!! Waiting days for timers to exit = everyone wants to play a different game until 20mins before the op. So it doesn't favour people that can't play all day long. Boo Hoo, get some friends and delegate some responsibility. F) Mods on 0.0 Structures, when was the last time we saw innovation here? All we seem to see is deprecation of mods. Make it more fun. Allow CPU upgrades and stuff. Rock/Paper/RF timer/explosion routine is dull G) T3 frigates. Make using 10 ~ 20 frigates more fun by offering ways to bluff / counter the usual 40man BC gang blob that forms to camp you. H) more ships please, even if they are t1, get more ships out into the game. Sleeper / Thukka faction frigates lawlz .. something! I) Tax people jumping through gates owned by players (incite some sort of reason to want to go to war and take this space for your own).
0.0 is pretty stagnant to be honest. Only reason sov is won or lost is down to the current owners walking away. Why do they walk away? Scared? (NO), there just isn't enough incentive to actually bother to keep it or to take sov.
Players without SOV are penalized ZERO. This is a HUGE incentive not to get sov. Bit obvious really. Make it cost them.
Inverse of that, give alliances the ability to set a tax rate that affects all corps. The pay out here is that this is the rate corps are feed profits from sov. Probably need to 'draw' pictures to explain that one better. Basically, want to make sure 'everyone' in a corp / alliance receives isk. Forces corps / alliances to cut the slack and makes people 'want' to contribute.
At the moment. if you get it then .. well .. there is not enough reward for the weeks of work per system, so you end up losing people, who would prefer to do plexing as at least they are doing something rather than staying about purely to fight. Not everyone sees value in effort made to keep or retain the space.
Don't think moons are a very good way to make ISK either. Bit dull really. All these planets are just slightly odd looking asteroid belts. Certainly not going to feed ISK to every man / woman in your corp is it? Only the 'FEW' get the ISK. Does nothing to inspire people to 'work'.
Make 0.0 very very lucrative. I don't mean putting missions in there, I mean, make people wandering around 0.0 rich! Don't force them to have to scan down things for hours. Reward them sure, for exploration, but make it so that someone just out in a PVP ship, can get some riches without needing to log in 2 other alt accounts and never end up PVP'ing. Make 'story line events happen' out there, roaming ships can come across the spoils of the war.
Basically, I'm agreeing with the points the OP has made, the above are my *uncooked* thoughts about how to improve the game. Pick each one up, give it a shake. There's some merit in each. I know they are strangely 'foreign' to this game we play. THATS WHY I LIKE EM ;-)
Game needs something 'new' in all of these areas.
/me gets back to his holiday
NAPS: forcing you to play 'their' game |

HalfArse
Gallente Imperial Syndicate Forces En Garde
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Posted - 2010.07.24 16:52:00 -
[42]
allowing sov holders to put a tax on gate activation would be cool - it would make high traffic systems worth alot of money and wouldnt favor any given region. Wartargets would be exempt from tax tho so if you wanted to atk a system with a massive fleet youd have to declare war or give your enenmy alot of money when you arrive :P
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Sandwich PvP
Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.24 19:48:00 -
[43]
Easy fix. Make stations destroyable.....Can't be done until 30 days after you've taken sov. Have a chance for all loot stored in station to drop. You know how people like to have expensive toys in 0.0, think about the drop possibilities. Yes killing a station you have captured may seem like a huge waste, and you'd certainly want to avoid blowing up random stations that people don't store stuff in, but under the right circumstances, capturing and killing a station could make an alliance instantly rich.....seems like that would provide the type of incentive you want.
Personally I like the idea of taking a serious risk, and reaping a serious reward, but that's just me.
The only fight worth fighting is the one you should lose. |

n0thing
Gallente Executive Intervention The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.07.25 00:17:00 -
[44]
Originally by: HalfArse allowing sov holders to put a tax on gate activation would be cool - it would make high traffic systems worth alot of money and wouldnt favor any given region. Wartargets would be exempt from tax tho so if you wanted to atk a system with a massive fleet youd have to declare war or give your enenmy alot of money when you arrive :P
Sir, you propose to kill the roam/skirmish pvp completly? ---
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Nexo92
Caldari Method of Destruction The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.07.25 06:44:00 -
[45]
Posting in a ShadowandLight thread :)
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TheMahdi
Amarr Space Explorations and Excavations Galactic Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.25 13:01:00 -
[46]
Pretty simple really.
Modify the way infrastructure upgrades work, instead of having many many fully upgraded systems that all yield the same amount, easily sustaining the entire EVE population in a fraction of the space available...
Use an existing mechanic, system truesec should affect the quality of the benefits from upgrades. So -1.0 systems are still far superior and perhaps even cost less (RP factor: CONCORD has less influence in lower truesec).
Also return static DEDs but increase respawn/adjust rewards and create a **** ton more interesting ones.
Readjust the way exploration sites spawn and their rewards (which are pretty weak at the moment in general and way too random) to once again be more profitable in certain hot spots - you know, actually make EXPLORING that region of space worth while.
But these are just my gripes about 0.0 PvE mechanics, the lag should be foremost priority so that anyone will give a **** about any changes.
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Mujen
Minmatar TopHat Inc. Ta8ula Rasa
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Posted - 2010.07.25 13:12:00 -
[47]
Originally by: TheMahdi Pretty simple really.
Modify the way infrastructure upgrades work, instead of having many many fully upgraded systems that all yield the same amount, easily sustaining the entire EVE population in a fraction of the space available...
Use an existing mechanic, system truesec should affect the quality of the benefits from upgrades. So -1.0 systems are still far superior and perhaps even cost less (RP factor: CONCORD has less influence in lower truesec).
Also return static DEDs but increase respawn/adjust rewards and create a **** ton more interesting ones.
Readjust the way exploration sites spawn and their rewards (which are pretty weak at the moment in general and way too random) to once again be more profitable in certain hot spots - you know, actually make EXPLORING that region of space worth while.
But these are just my gripes about 0.0 PvE mechanics, the lag should be foremost priority so that anyone will give a **** about any changes.
I agree with the last statement. A common complaint is CCP adds more features without making fixing any existing issues. I'd like to see lag tackled first, then go forward with ways to reinvigorate 0.0.
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Mathkrraa
Gallente Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.07.25 15:46:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Nexo92 Posting in a ShadowandLight thread :)
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Makthrraaa
Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.07.25 15:47:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Nexo92 Posting in a ShadowandLight thread :)
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Shamis Orzoz
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.25 17:29:00 -
[50]
The dominion lag machine is the number one reason why big wars aren't happening as much these days.
I think the best way to keep 0.0 regions balanced while also creating real incentives for invasions would be to give each region unique resources that are required for production. If one region cuts the supply of said resources, they could drive up the prices and become rich, but they would also create a strong desire for others to invade their space.
Most regions have something unique about them now, but it is nothing substantial enough to make any real difference in alliance level politics.
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Morrn
Gallente Heaven's Avatars Without Remorse.
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Posted - 2010.07.25 22:05:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz The dominion lag machine is the number one reason why big wars aren't happening as much these days.
I think the best way to keep 0.0 regions balanced while also creating real incentives for invasions would be to give each region unique resources that are required for production. If one region cuts the supply of said resources, they could drive up the prices and become rich, but they would also create a strong desire for others to invade their space.
Most regions have something unique about them now, but it is nothing substantial enough to make any real difference in alliance level politics.
The potential there could be awesome. If the resources were used to make useful things EVERYONE could use, 0.0 AND empire, maybe people in empire would pay an alliance to invade a region in order to keep the supply of resources flowing to empire.
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Apollo Gabriel
Caldari Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.26 02:40:00 -
[52]
Off the cuff brainstorming What if System Rent was based on how many neighbors you had?
If there are Four Sov V systems with X range of you, it costs more to claim sov? That makes the big guys stronger, sort of a cultural victory a la Civilization III
it would also make it harder for pets to exist, as your might would push them out in time. Flame On Best, Apollo Don't let the trolls, keep you from your goals. |

stevieisbest
Caldari Pilots Of Honour Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.07.26 06:02:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Off the cuff brainstorming What if System Rent was based on how many neighbors you had?
If there are Four Sov V systems with X range of you, it costs more to claim sov? That makes the big guys stronger, sort of a cultural victory a la Civilization III
it would also make it harder for pets to exist, as your might would push them out in time. Flame On Best, Apollo
im pretty sure the whole point of the last expansion was to make mega alliances weaker. not stronger like you say your idea is suggesting
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Haniblecter Teg
Gallente F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.26 12:21:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Ardetia
Originally by: Marconus Orion Edited by: Marconus Orion on 23/07/2010 04:12:23 Have moons change. A 30 day cycle on a moon that is being mined the whole time would be something like this:
5 day change which during those 5 days each day the ratio of old mineral vs new mineral goes down by 20% per day. So on day 1 it would be 80% cad and 20% tech. Day 2 is 60% cad and 40% tech. So on and so forth that on day 6 it is now 100% tech.
The 100% tech would last for 20 days. This is of course if it is being mined the whole time. On day 26 we would start to see the introduction of a new mineral that was depleted somewhere else in the universe. So lets say it would be 80% tech and 20% cobalt.
You get the idea. This would bring back moon probing as a profession and give incentive to go after moons that show evidence of going from a so so element to the flavor of the month in demand element.
But of course, I expect any current high end moon holders to flame this will their mains and alts and put out an alliance wide mail for everyone else to do the same.
That is just one idea I have on what would help out 0.0. Not to mention give low sec a boost.
Flame on.
EDIT: If no mining is happening, then the cycle freezes on whatever it was and does not continue. All in all I think it would be a simple to implement. Maybe we will see if CCP does anything like that in the next 12-18 months.
definitely a game changer, definitely makes things more interesting but could be alot more work for people who already got eve as a second job but, best idea ive heard in a while
Makes all space the same. Why fight over moons when a typical region has 300-500 moons. ----------------- Friends Forever |

Apollo Gabriel
Caldari Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.26 15:39:00 -
[55]
Originally by: stevieisbest
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Off the cuff brainstorming What if System Rent was based on how many neighbors you had?
If there are Four Sov V systems with X range of you, it costs more to claim sov? That makes the big guys stronger, sort of a cultural victory a la Civilization III
it would also make it harder for pets to exist, as your might would push them out in time. Flame On Best, Apollo
im pretty sure the whole point of the last expansion was to make mega alliances weaker. not stronger like you say your idea is suggesting
Perhaps my post was not clear, yes it would make them "stronger" but only in the sense that it would make being their neighbors tougher, so peaceful borders would need many buffer systems between them. Unused resources always spur fighting.
Don't let the trolls, keep you from your goals. |

UGWidowmaker
Caldari freelancers inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.07.26 21:25:00 -
[56]
bahhh just make it so u get killpoints for each kill u make in 00- those point u can use for something... OMFG
I am the widowmaker stay tuned.
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NARDAC
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.26 21:50:00 -
[57]
Under the old system, the amount of profit in a system was not based on the number of people living and working there. Your system generates X ISK a month, then splitting that cash 10 ways is better than splitting it 100 ways.
And, there was no reason for an allaince not to own, but barely use large number of systems.
In short, the old way discouraged 0.0 alliances from inviting new players and corps into their territory.
CCP did not like that the mechanisms were discouraging alliances from inviting more people into these alliances' territories.
So, they make a new mechanic. The more people working a sytem, the more profitable it is. Okay, now virtually any system can be profitable, so why fight over systems.
And, they add rent to systems to encourage the big allainces to invite more corps in to run systems.
CCP gets what it wants, but there becomes less reason for mega alliances to fight. Ooops.
So, the question has to be phrased like this. How does CCP alter the 0.0 system sovereignty rules that: 1) makes the profitability of a system related to the number of people living in it and working in it to encourage alliances to bring in more people. 2) makes alliances only hold systems they are actively working, encouraging them to bring in more corps to work the remaining systems. 3) still gives alliances reason to attack other systems.
What is the solution?
Then, there is this whole other issue.
Let's say you have an alliance that is trying to invade another alliance's territory. You are going to be doing a lot of hit and run PVP. You're migratory, hitting targets of oppertunity while your targets are fixed, trying to mine, rat, plex a fixed set of systems.
Let's say you break the will of the enemy, get a lot of their corps to leave looking for safer places to work, and are able to actually take over their territory and become the new sovereign power.
Oooppsss... Now all the people that joined your alliance to get easy PVP start to get disgruntled because all they can do is sit in your systems trying to defend against raids by whomever has decided they want to use fast and loose gorilla tactics to PVP a fixed target.
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Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.27 08:37:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Camios on 27/07/2010 08:44:55 I don't agree on some point:
Quote: POS's Vs New Sov Mech - This is basically in simplest terms Strategy / Resilience vs Brute Force. In the old days people spent 24 / 36 hours in one time POS spamming systems to prevent the attacker from getting 51% more pos's in a system then the defender. It required huge dedication, isk and coordination. Now, if you get Attacker X > Defender Y in # of pilots and make sure they attend only 6 operations, you get the entire system. After getting your butts kicked a few times the defender will give up and the attacker basically steam rolls the entire system. I do not see the new mechanics as an improvement to the game.
Your opinion on the new system is the same that CCP had when they introduced it. They thought it would have made the game more dynamical and it would have made conquest campaign shorter. But CCP were wrong. It's very easy to understand why: the attacker has to attend 6 times with numerical superiority and he wins. But if he fails once he has to start back from the beginning. And the defender has a lot of advantages: he can use cynojammers, bridges, and choose when he wants to fight. The reality is that the outcomes of wars are not decided on the battlefields. When the attacker wins, he does because he managed to disrupt enemy's orgnization and will to play with boredom, espionage stuff, and the like.
I completely agree with people that say that server performance is the problem. This is not felt by the fleet commanders, this is felt by the grunt in his fleet battle BS or whatever that wants to shoot while his modules are stuck. Of course, he does not find lag fun, and thus the will to participate to fleet warfare is quite low.
The only solution I see is to study a system that achieve this
Quote: a system that requires simultaneous participation from multiple forces in different locations at the same time. In simple terms, find a way to split up the large fights into smaller ones that have to happen before a system is taken. Its one way to reduce the fleet numbers.
Basically, my ideas are these:
- The attacker in the current system is the one that has the greatest difficulties. The attacker would benefit a lot from the participation of their pilots and allies
- Pilots would participate more if the environment was less laggy, because they want fun!
- So the attacker forces would get benefits from having less lag. Theoretically, a way to improve server performance would be to attack N systems at once, having N fights on N different nodes.
- But unfortunately, this is never going to happen because the defender can concentrate his forces and wipe the different attacking forces one by one on different episodes.
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Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.27 09:13:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Camios on 27/07/2010 09:16:21 There are some other possibilities, but this is the simplest I see in order to allow the attacker to attack multiple system at once, thus reducing server performance problems.
The fact that this revolves into rebalancing the attacker/defender advantages is inevitable, and btw if we want more wars and a more dynamical nullsec we need to incentivate the attacker and make nullsec more unstable, there is no other way.
That is, half of the 0.0 players will probably whine about any change that makes it more dynamical (that means unstable).
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Red Boss
Gallente Zombicidal Mania Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.07.27 09:46:00 -
[60]
I think everyone is misconstruing the problem. The issue is that people don't fight because there's no reason to/it's more hassle than it's worth.
I personally think the following are a problem: 1) Null is too profitable. You can simply hang out in w/e upgrades system you hang out in and just do sanctums in your carrier/mom. It's an obscene amount of isk compared to most other activities and it's essentially afk-able. 2) When you want PVP, you just JC to w/e hotspot system you have a JC in, or you just fly 15-20 jumps out to wherever it is you like to go for pvp against people that do the same. The goal is always to get a few kills and have some GFs, not to actually accomplish anything. 3) The combination of easy isk farming + easy pvp in null atm means that you never have to do anything after you've gotten your little corner area. 4) For the big powerhouses, you just grab a whole lotta space, rent it out, and get rich, while your members follow steps 1-3. 5) Conquering stuff is too hard. Systems take forever to take, and because reinforcement timers are on a timer (doh!) the defender knows what time to spam an assload of people into the system thus creating wtfbbqlag. Or vice versa. Whoever gets 1352646 people there first and waits out the timer wins. That's a ******ed system. Imagine during WW2 if when we landed on normandy and took the beach, the bunkers went into reinforced and the germans were like ok, we'll bring some reinforcements, just hold on yanks. IRL war doesn't work like that. Any reasonable concept of war shouldn't work like that.
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